PUMA is a joke.

Party Unity My Ass?

Real mature and classy people.

All 5 of them.

you will get nothing but mojo and kudos from me.. as well as a rec.

I was always sort of amazed that referring to Donna Brazille and Michelle Obama by both misogynistic and racist terms was treated as normal by posters who decried the misogynistic treatment of Clinton... it was like turnabout is fair play in some alternate universe.

Beyond that, PUMA... a majestic animal... a decent shoe company... that's about it.

This has very little to do with Clinton as a person or a candidate. Clinton is not the holy grail for all who supported clinton. The whole point is not clinton or nothing. It is: is Obama qualified to lead and run the country and make the critical decisions that may need to be taken at any time? So far his supporters have shopped around only two supposed qualifications, since he has absolutely not articulated/advocated for anything long enough in his public life other than his own candidacy for higher offices. 1. His editor in chief of HLR 2. His successful campaign. I would give much credit to Axelrod for 2 although candidate does deserve some credit. But if that is a good criteria for voting for a president, we should have all voted for Bush in 2000/2004.

Dont insult our intelligence and list his policy prescriptions from his website. Every candidate worth the salt will have to have policy positions. That doesnt make them a leader. This guy after getting elected and going to both IL senate and US senate has done nothing to show that he is a leader. He was a mediocre senator in IL until Emil Jones did him favors in the last 2 yrs of his senate stay, just so he could run for US senate. In the US senate he has taken no leadership position on Iraq or censure motion or anything else, like Feingold did or Kucinich did in the house. Fine. Has he at least successfully or unsuccessfully  led on some democratic/progressive holy grail such as UHC or environment or GLBT rights/marriage or anything else that I can think of. At a minimum he hasnt even risked his own political neck and stood for some progressive priority even if he didnt ultimately succeed on that. That way showing that he actually can lead and advocate and expect him to succeed at a future point in time. He hasnt done any such thing. The only worthwhile thing his supporters cling to is his Editor in Chief at HLR. And if you go look at what he did in HLR, apparently he didnt even publish one article in HLR as EIC. There certainly is no scholarly article that google scholar search shows up for him on law as HLR chief or not. And somebody put together a case comparing 20 years of HLR citations and showed that the year he was EIC for is the lowest cited in 20 years. So even there his leadership is in serious question. Just show us where he fought hard and led and what causes for other than his own elections.

By comparision, whether we agree with McCain's policies or not, the man is most qualified to be run the country and be the leader of this country. Yes, it bothers me to vote for him (and probably why I may not vote for him) when you consider SCOTUS appointments or other such things that have long term impacts. However I would rather elect a dem congress which can put a roadblock on these things to a repub president than elect someone who has shown absolutely no leadership qualities in all his public life or even private life. His private career is completely unremarkable. He hasnt argued key legal cases or made key legal arguments as part of a team either that show his legal leadership.

At the end of the day party loyalty is not the holy grail. Think about it. If only some of the repubs who didnt think Bush was a good leader were not loyal to the repub party and crossed parties and voted for Al Gore we wouldnt have had the diasaster we had for 7 years.  loyalty to the country and to have a good leader for the country is the holy grail. Obama simply doesnt meet these standards. It would be another presidency fully dependent on advisors and the cabinet rather than the president's leadership and judgement.

Pary loyalty my ass, Party unity my ass indeed!!

I can't wait for someone to defend the talented PUMA spokespeople.

I love how they thought that Fox was fair to HRC and would be fair to them.

Damn, Neil Cavuto is still in the top ten of worst people ever, but he does his job well here.

He takes very weak minded "democrats" and turns them against each other and inside out.

God to love American TV,  the best medium for making small people looks smaller.

nose and cast their vote for Obama. Please don't associate them with PUMA

Not me -- in my short and unfortunate relationship with PUMA, my determination is that they hate their country and they're all psychos.  

Obama supporters need to smack them down ASAP.  By smack them down, I mean with logic, facts and large bars of chocolate.

I spoke out against the ugly media bias against Bill & Hillary Clinton, and I intend to do the same for Barack & Michelle Obama. NO DEMOCRAT should support the smearing of other Democrats.

"It hits home that people on this site are defending someone trying to smear Obama with tactics of racism and religious bigotry and extremism.

It is time this WHOLE site takes a stand."

It's time Democrats and progressives all over the place, not just here, take a stand against the religious bigotry and racism against Obama. I found the sexism against Hillary horrible and now I see racism and bigoted comments about Obama everywhere and they are just as bad. We have to call them out when we see them or they will make all progressives/Democrats look bad.

That's why the Republicans are loving this so much. They have been accused of being racist for years and now the PUMA-types (certainly not all of them) are playing right into their hands.

Long time, no see. I'm so glad we're on the same side again. And yes, I agree about both groups annoying me. Don't they realize they're only helping the CReeps by continuing to sow division and spite among us?

To be fair, I think (1) has been aggrevating the hell out of (2). But I agree (2) should be calm enough not to let (1)'s crap get to it.

They are equally annoying.  

Maybe everyone needs to get their sense of humor back.  

I fully agree, and I intend to push back... Forr Hillary's sake AND for Barack's sake. :-)

Think 'fifteen minutes of notoriety" when you say PUMA. All fifty of them got on Fox that fast. For them, that's what it's about, them, not HRC at all and certainly not those many who supported her and are now lying wounded for awhile. It's not PUMA I'm concerned for, it's the larger number not trying to manipulate a difficult situation for personal benefit.

That's a real honor coming from YOU. And btw, I'm glad to see you back on MyDD. You're one of the reasons I'm so glad to be back here. ;-)

Whenever my dad flips Faux News on in the living room while I'm present, I politely ask him to change the channel. They're so revolting in their sexist AND racist smears of Michelle Obama. I simply  can't stomach their BS about Barack and Michelle.

There are no keys on this keyboard to express how hard I laughed at that.

If you are young enough to get it, and you saw the video upthread it is maybe the joke of the week!

I think Clinton will say a lot by DOING, by campaigning with and for Obama.

Très drôle mon ami français, très bon usage de la langue et les doubles significations en dedans.

(as always my grammar sucks and I am very literal in my translations)

sites gratuits de traduction. Ils sont tous pourris! Leurs phrases sont affreuses... on a peine a comprendre ce que vous voulez nous dire.

Pour tous ceux qui respectent cette superbe langue, c'est vraiment tres agacant! Alors, faites-nous une faveur et taisez-vous!

Let's not start anything on Alegre. I definitely don't agree with what's she's doing now, but I'm still holding out hope that she'll ultimately do the right thing. Let's just not get into another discussion on Alegre.

Thanks.

A lot of familair names posting over there. Most of her rec "gang," at least.

I'm convinced at this point that no1/4 and H44 are simply right-wing performance art, amusing themselves with the knowledge that they're able to fool the occasional unhinged Clinton supporter into believing them.

The PUMAs, meanwhile, with which alegre and the other usual suspects are now clearly aligned, are probably just a relative handful of bloggers, posting at multiple sites, desperately trying to convince the media and themselves of their relevance.

They've so thoroughly constructed their own realities that they're pretty much impervious to reason. They've probably convinced themselves that they're speaking for a higher cause. But we all know they're just speaking to themselves, for themselves. Come September, I half expect them to start promoting their own party, the America-for-Hillary Party, thinking they can pull a Lieberman.

But I hope Sen. Clinton smacks this stuff down long before that. Let them have their fantasies for a few more weeks, maybe, but then she needs to put these people down loud and clear, and state unequivocably that they do not speak for her or in her interest.

And I'm willing to do some work to actually make sure they don't convince any more Hillary supporters to follow their lead.

After all...

http://clintonistasforobama.blogspot.com

That's why I created this blog. ;-)

WTF are you talking about?

Sharp elbows?

If you can't take a "sharp elbow" what are you doing in politics?

If a "sharp elbow" is enough to make you vote for a war mongerer you need drugs, professional help, and you need to take 3 steps back from that voting booth.

I am sorry, there is no exuse for this terrible woman (one of the "architects")  

In this video she says McCain is better qualified than Hillary:

Yawn.

Whew!  I think my breath stinks!

I think you are spot on that they're not so much upset about how HRC was treated than about how they feel they were treated.

This is all about bruised egos at this stage. Nothing to do with politics. They are mad at ... they don't exactly know who or what; as like as not they'll end up mad at Hillary.

I admire all the more the vast majority of Clinton supporters who took the high way.

Thank you.

Another 3.6 million undecided.

And that's out of the motivated active Democrats who participate in primaries and caucuses.

Looked at another way: Obama polled 47% among registered voters at large ... and 61% among Democratic primary voters who originally favored Hillary.

atdleft, Geek and others can't understand it, or pretend it's not there, or spin up bizarre explanations for it, or laugh it off and assume it will go away.

They're not operating from reality-based perspectives.

"They're not just upset with the way Clinton was treated. They're upset with the way they, as long time Dem activists, were treated.  You can't attack, purge and invalidate large sections of the party base during a contentious primary, then command them to shut up and fall in line."

That's true, somebody should sue.  I assume there are lawyers working on that?

I also like the argument: I've got nothing against Obama but he's been nominated by an anti-democratic process so I'll vote for McCain.

If Hillary had been nominated, it would have been through the same anti-democratic process, so I would have voted for McCain too.

So in any case I would have voted for McCain.

We'll win w/o them. This election isn't even going to be close. You heard it here first.

I agree. I've been checking out NQ and the racism is vile. Obama gets called a mongrel, they mock Michelle's appearance, they call Obama and his supporters savages.  And they are absolutely irrational.

point of view they are close.  They both treat the supporters of the non favored candidate very similarly.

Note I am one of the ones working on the Flowbee project so you can infer that I don't like him at all, but Dkos was pretty repellent from a Clintonista's perspective.

Kos was not as bad as those sites are now but there was a time when both were partisan to the same degree.  As an Obama supporter, I was shocked that Clinton supporters saw Kos that way but it's because of my biased point of view.
Now that the nominee has been decided and the Clinton supporters I used to call trolls are my friends, I realize they were no more trollish than I was.

Point of view warps our perception much more than we realize is all I'm saying.

As for NQ and the others where they are now is anti-Democratic party...they have crossed the line and are rightwing smear sites.  

Agreed. As someone who routinely rated down ugly anti-Clinton comments and mocked hyperbolic diaries, I'll admit to feeling outnumbered over at Dkos. It's as if moderation had to retreat two steps back, holding the line at certain kinds of profanity and character assassination, but unfortunately allowing a lot of nasty vitriol to filter through. More than I was comfortable with, certainly.

But the rec list at kos usually was and still is a more diverse sample of writing on more than just campaign topics, and throughout the primary it was certainly more than just Clinton bashing. Meanwhile, the rec list here filled up with hit pieces almost every evening, while no1/4, TM, and H44 went into exclusive and ugly anti-Obama mode early and often.

I know a lot of people don't like the orange place, but despite its size, there's a lot of good work appearing there. The diary rescue for one day alone has more substantial progressive writing than you'll ever find at Larry's site.

Really, I think it stands for

IGNORE THEM BECAUSE THEY THRIVE ON ATTENTION LIKE SPOILED CHILDREN.

Every mention on major websites like this one or Kos gets an entire diary devoted to it.  There are certain personality types that thrive on opposition, take it away from them and they lose purpose.  Separate the people who genuinely want John McCain as president from the people who live in "me against the word" fantasyland.

I'll rec this because I agree, but not entirely for the reasons you do.

Oh, I want to talk about the Andrew Young vs. Kathleen Sibelius analogy you made the other day sometimes when you're around, but this isn't the diary for it.

Yeah, I think this is what the Obama camp should actually be worried about. Not the folks who are defecting to McCain -- they're just aren't that many. They make a spicy little news story for the MSM and the McCain camp to jump on but they aren't going to have a significant impact.

Obama's problems are going to be:

A)  with the Independents, many of whom like McCain's position on national defense and his proven voter record of voting against financially wasteful legislation, even if they prefer Obama on Iraq and healthcare, for example.  They don't consider a McCain win in November to be a disaster; they don't completely agree with either Obama or McCain, so no matter how they vote they have to make a compromise. The question is what will turn out to be most important to them.

B) with the not-politically-active Dems, the majority of the party, who don't volunteer or blog, but whose sole crucial contribution is going to the polls on Election Day and pulling a lever.  Many of them may decide just to stay home if they're not sufficiently enthused about an Obama presidency. Whether he can balance that by registering more young people, blacks, and upscale voters than usually vote remains to be seen. (Mostly the kids and the African Americans -- upscale Dems pretty much always vote.)

Not voting, eh?  That will really learn us not to support someone other than Hillary Clinton.

They don't currently matter much except as a media curiosity.

However, Obama better not make any more major flubs between now and November, or they could turn into the kernel of a much larger group that might actually have an impact.

PUMAs are not a collected one voice group.  Many will write in Hillary, some may sit home, some may vote Nader, some may vote McCain.  Stop trying to paint them with a single brush.  The distinguishing  feature is they don't accept an ILLEGITIMATE candidate (Obama), who in the process of being put in the position of demo candidate, despite a popular vote victory by Hillary, will vote their principles. Oh sure ignore them.  Their number are growing, rather substantially btw.

Dude, who are you talking to??

I'm not sure you read the diary.

Oh, you are sooooo wrong.  It's actually growing..how odd.  Denial doesn't make things go away uaddressed

Somehow I don't think you have the power or influence to get these people to do anything.  How exactly do you plan to "take out the trash"?  And why in the world would it be worth your time?

You're seriously overreacting here. Anything you did or tried to do would just give them more attention and keep them going longer.  Be an adult and just ignore them. If you pick at it, it'll never heal, you know.

Obviously a sham. Which is why I wonder why people are spending time writing diaries about this lot or saying they should be "taken out" and pointless stuff like that.  

They're just a conglomerate of trolls looking for attention. Don't give it to them.

I had friends who thought Reagan was fine in 1980 because it would turn the American people toward the left. It didn't happen and left lots of damage, lots of programs for the poor were cut and military spending increased.

I know - when every other word out of their mouths has to do with his race, there's a problem.

I grew up in Yonkers (think The Sopranos) and my early childhood was spent in the middle of the schools being forcibly desegrated.  It's actually a pretty famous case.  Anyway it brought out this tremendous white backlash and everything people are saying now just brings me right back to when I was a kid.  I know what these people say in public, and what it's a code for, and what they say in private because they think I'm one of them, and the ones that don't even realize how awful their ideas are and all the rest of it.

Talk about Dead Enders . . .

Every time I bring up that some of them show racist tendencies, people run from that like it's fire.  

There are some Hillary groups right now that are like white supremacist groups.  The sad thing is, they don't even know it. I'd like to know how to knock them down, even shut them down. I'm trying my best to self-destruct one group and it's working, but they're also ready to kick me out because I have the audacity to defend that guy who in their eyes has  a racist wife and is  Muslim.  The PUMA people are much the same, and some of them most definitely are like white supremacists. I'd like to expose them  for what they are, not ignore it.

I spent a lot of time exposing the sexism towards Hillary, so this to me is the same as that effort. We shouldn't ignore it, we should attack it.

Not just what you pointed out - and it was the first thing I thought of, but cmon, the organization has the word 'ass' in its title.

These aren't the sharpest knives in the ginsu set.

wow, So, by your own admission, the only candidate you would have voted for, regardless of a damn near mirror image on policy Is Hillary Clinton.  You, and the rest of the dead enders can vote for who you want, It doesn't matter to me, but your self importance is almost unbelievable.

Vote for who you want, this is identity politics run amuck, and yes its true, some of "those working class, white working class voters" wont vote for Obama, and he will win anyway, just to show you how much "power" you think you had.