Unity can happen...I've seen it done...

I've been telling my friends for months now that HOW this primary ends is far more important than WHEN it ends.  It's going to end soon, the question is, how?

I keep recalling our situation in Missouri four years ago.  We had a sitting (but unpopular) democratic governor in Bob Holden.  Our state auditor decided to mount a primary challenge, against the wishes of the party establishment, and many democrats.  The challenger?  Claire McCaskill.

I remember I vowed I would never support Claire in the general if she beat Holden in the primary.  I also vowed never to support her again.  Well, Claire beat Bob in the primary, and the most extraordinary thing happened.  Holden made an eloquent concession speech and called, passionately and genuinely, for party unity.  Holden called his most ardent supporters and begged them to support Claire.  

It was stunning, and it totally disarmed my ill-will toward Claire.  McCaskill lost to Matt Blunt in the general, but, in large part because of Holden, Claire was not seen as a divisive figure, and survived politically to challenge Talent for her Senate seat.  Holden was one of many important factors in the Democrats getting control of the Senate in 2006.

Our race is far more emotional, with hopes by both sides that glass ceilings and racial inequalities will be abated by one candidate's success.  But I still believe unity can be had.  

At this point, unity is the only thing that can save Obama for the 2008 election.  If Obama loses, unity is the only thing that can save Hillary's chances in 2012.  

The question remains, how will it end?



Display:


Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Terry McAuliffe stated today on George's show that once Obama gets the required amount of delegates, which he should next week, Hillary will concede.

so, I wouldn't worry about it.  Hillary will concede and hopefully, all of her strengths, her willingness to hit the republicans, to back Obama, will be praised high and low, instead of being smeared.


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:07:47 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

So be it!
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I also supported Holden, but voted for Claire in November 2004 (and 2006 and gave her money, and I still don't like her much).


by TomP on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 3)

Unity will happen but people seem to forget that as Humans we need to vent sometimes.

its not even worth bothering with unity talk for at least a week after Hillary official drops, as was shown today, when something negative happens her 'supporters' are going to lash out. best to let them do so separate the reasonable ones from trolls then we work on unity.

no point trying to unify now as some crazies send out wild conspiracy theories, let em vent first


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:08:13 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Good point...


by stlatty72 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 1)

You really think this is just venting?

I believe Hillary supporters are rightfully disgusted with the Democratic party especially the people who have been around long enough to recognize that party leadership took sides in this primary.

I cannot recall party leadership coming before the cameras to complain about tone, political ads, and calling for a candidate to leave the race. The leadership showed me that it did not respect Mrs. Clinton or women. The sexist comments were allowed to go unchecked. Not a single party leader addressed it.

The Clintons of all people have been labeled racists in the media, by party leaders, and in the blogs. And this has been accepted as fact and no one has addressed the absurdity of this allegation. No one came before the cameras to say anything about this. Mrs. Clinton has been accused of saying she is hanging around in case Obama is assassinated and this has been widely accepted as fact.

Dean, Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy, Brazile, Clyburn, and others have been huge disappointments. Their claims of neutrality early on were negated by their actions and words.

This is what the Democratic party has become. I no longer recognize it.

I am stunned.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Exactly.  Pelosi and Co. had more jollies attacking Hillary than they ever showed spine standing up to Bush.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I Will Not Disagree that Pelosi (2.00 / 2)

is spineless, which is exactly why we need to put a Democrat in the White House. We can't have four years of her "compromising" with Next W - only horrific things will happen in that scenario. EVERYTHING must be done to stop McCain, including putting down the pitchforks and torches we're threatening each other with. People were nasty on both sides - there are LOTSA nasty people out there!

Deal and grow from this, but don't allow Repubs to toss the future lives our children into chaos and war - it's just wrong. You've got to see that there is a HUGE chasm between Obama and McCain, and that under any circumstance your life and the lives of your loved ones will be better off without McSame.


by RNinNC on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:31:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 1)

Here's another perspective:

Immediately before the Texas and Ohio primaries, Hillary was on a campaign-ending losing streak. I know that she is your preferred candidate so it may have been difficult for you to accept it, but she really did lose this contest in February. At that point, Obama had risen to his highest point in popularity and he looked really strong against John McCain.
Hillary had a choice to make: She could have campaigned more gently until finding a time to exit the race, or she could have thrown the kitchen sink at Obama hoping to tear him down enough to bring her own candidacy back to life.

She chose the latter. Then, despite the fact that she gained almost no delegate ground from March 4th contests and was therefore an even less probably winner, she continued to hammer at him with bittergate etc...

The "party leaders" were not being sexist. They were being realistic. They were trying to protect the nominee from being damaged by his own party before the general.

Had the situation been reversed, and had Hillary built a commanding lead by winning the next 11 contests after Super Tuesday, and had Obama been throwing anything and everything at Hillary (including republican talking points like elitist) to try to tear her down, don't you think some in the party would have tried to encourage him to stop the destruction?

I know that Hillary was your preferred candidate, and I respect that, and I agree that she would make a fantastic president, but I also hope that you can respect that Obama was the preferred candidate for many of your fellow democrats, and he is now the nominee. We could really use your support.


by glopster on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:59:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Your really believe he isn't damaged now?

Texas and Ohio? The Clintons had already been labeled racists by members of the Democratic party in South Carolina. By the time Texas and Ohio came around Clinton supporters were also labeled racists.

If the party leadership wanted to support Obama they should have made that clear rather than claiming neutrality which ALL of them claimed. Neutrality means you don't take sides. You don't go on FOX News to accuse them of racebaiting as Dean did while MSNBC is making sexist comments as sport and say nothing.


"No self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her." - Susan B. Anthony
by feelfree on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 2)

No, I agree with your suggestion that he is damaged. Not only is his popularity down, but support around Hillary has grown more stubborn and resentful of Obama.

I am not saying that nothing sexist happened pre-March 4th, I am not saying that the Clintons are racist.

What I'm saying is that, as a whole group, party leaders largely let them duke it out through February, but then got nervous when it looked like Obama had built an insurmountable lead but Clinton kept attacking.

There are lots of things that went on in this campaign. Some of the things Obama or his surrogates said/did I don't agree with. Some of the things the Clintons or surrogates said/did I don't agree with. I'm making generalizations here. For every "Howard Dean said ..l.", I could say a "Clintons suggested that Obama would be a great VP even though he was winning the race..isn't that racist of them!"

But instead of magnifying every comment out of proportion, I just wanted to say that my observation was that the clear pattern of "party bosses" stepping in only happened after Hillary wsa significantly behind and she kept hammering at Barack anyway.


by glopster on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I disagree. There must be voices of calm and unity as Obama supporters gloat and Clinton supporters rage. I will aknowledge that it is a losing battle this week, but Hillary's hopes for 2012 or 2016 depend on voices like mine and not those protesting on the TV yesterday. Hillary has earned respect and admiration for her fighting spirit, but those people did her no favors and they need to know that.


by dead goat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There won't be a 2012. (none / 0)

Our nominee will annihilate John McCain.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:21:04 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

"Hillary's chances in 2012."<---This is ridiculous. I'm a Clinton supporter but I must say that Clinton is no spring chicken; why would she run in 2012? Not only that, the Democratic party NEVER goes for a candidate that lost a presidential election. 2012-Pure nonsense... STOP IT.  


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:23:24 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I believe HRC is 62...if Obama loses, she'd run against McCain...who'd be 76...I think age would be ok.


by stlatty72 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:36:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Believe what you want...but IMO, Clinton won't run for President again.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Unity will happen when the Obama supporters vote (1.33 / 3)

for Hillary in November.


by LindaSFNM on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:38:23 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 2)

Yesterday's proceeding amplified the DNC's desire to restructure/realign the demographics of the party. Unity has never been the issue. Of course for perception purposes, Brazille and the gang will demand that the Clintons urge her supporters to support Obama's candidacy. The fashion in which the party elite purged the Clintons yesterday was purposeful and swift.


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:52:10 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Of course for perception purposes, Brazille and the gang will demand that the Clintons urge her supporters to support Obama's candidacy.
Brazile is fooling no one but herself by continuing her sham as a uncommitted super delegate. I thinks it's funny how Brazille is permitted to be a super delegate and then she can go to her media job and critique herself :D


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:58:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

They plan to utilize their trumped up race charge against the Clintons as a trumped up unifying tool. They will state that the Clintons now need to right the wrong to the African American community which will then unify the party. They are slick...no doubt about it.


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

IMO, they think they're slick. The American people aren't buying what the media is spewing. The American people aren't buying what the party elites are spewing.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:08:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Can you imagine the Republican party employing exit polling data in the distribtuion of delegates??? HA..seriously! It has to be one of the most outrageous, undemocratic actions taken by this party that I have supported my entire adult life. I have seen it all...


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:12:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Absolutely....and that's why Harold Ickes reserved the right to take this to the credentials committee. I thinks he has a great case. IMO, he should go for it.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:18:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 2)

I don't really understand. Hillary Clinton insisted that the superdelegates should excert their better judgement rather than follow blindly the choice of the voters. The FL-MI compromise is a typical case of 'exerting one's better judgement'. It is a compromise; on Florida both sides agreed. On Michigan there was a disagreement and a middle solution was adopted by supporters of both candidates and in agreement with what MI democratic party asked for.

Clinton said she would go against the decision if the concerned voters asked her to. It is up to her to decide whether those conditions are met.

She is perfectly free to take this to Denver. So why this outrage?

Are you mad because you think she will accept the compromise? Then be mad at her. It is entirely up to her now. Besides, recall that the Clinton camp was very largely responsible for creating this mess.

Some supers support Obama in petto but haven't declared yet: what is your problem with that? They are exerting their better judgement.

by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 1)

I have absolutely do not have an issue with superdelegates exerting their judgement. If as has been reported, a mass of superdelegates declare their support for Obama this week, so be it. It is their right to do so. I have stated here before that it is up to Clinton to take her case to the convention floor if that is her desire and I would support that decision.

I find it outrageous that any party would allocate delegates based on exit polling data. Just my opinion...


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

From a formal point of view, the only possible thing was not to take into account the results of a process whith was NOT an election according to usual democratic standards, which require that:
  • a campaign take place so that voters can vote in an enlightened way
  • voters be clearly told in advance how the output will be taken into account - in that case they were told it would NOT be taken into account
This only formally valid solution was the most stupid politically... If that had be decided, 'Clinton "supporters"' would have been 100 x more pissed off than they are now. A better way not to acknowledge the election while seating the delegation was to retain the Obama proposition. But then again, would you have been happy with that? The solution retained has the merit of being a compromise and not being in contradiction with the rules, as they stipulate that delegates are attributed according to the propositions of the states' democratic party, which is exactly what happened. If you must be mad against someone, be mad against the (Clinton leaning) Michigan democratic party which came up with this proposal.
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

 The body executed a delegate allocation based on exit data polling which results in an unjust act in an effort to purge the party of the Clinton constituency. I get it. At the end of the day, November 4, 2008 they will prevail or they will be defeated. It is simple for me...


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

NO. It was not based solely on exit polling. It was based on ballots cast, exit polling, and the number of bulletins where voters had written in candidate names (30 000). Exit polling was used to justifiy the fact that 'uncommited' bulletins were cast by Obama and Edwards supporters. They were used to justify attributing those to Obama. Apparently that was not controversial (although admittedly it could be considered so). It is the number of bulletins with other candidates written in which was used to justify that Clinton should be attributed a little less delegates, and Obama, a little more.
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I never stated that the allocation was based solely on exit poling data. You are the belief that the body was justified. I disagree.

Plus, there was zero factual evidence presented that the 30,000 write-in ballots were cast for Obama and Edwards. NONE...


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I don't say it is justified. The only rigourously justifiable thing would have been to discard this pseudo-election off-hand. And, if one felt like seating Michigan Delegates, to allocate them 50-50. But I think that politically, it would have been destructive; hence the need for a compromise. A compromise is by definition unsatisfactory for all. It was passed. If one party is not satisfied with it, it can form an appeal. Such a move would carry a political price, as well - possibly - as political benefits (although the latter are to me unclear). In any case there is nothing to get outraged at here.
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

"They will prevail of they will be defeated." Yes. Why should the delegate allocation cause a defeat in November? Will Michigan voters be pissed off? I think it's not the Michigan voters who are pissed off about that. Their party's demands were granted. I rather think it is a tiny minority of Clinton aficionados all over the US. Most of them will recover in due time, and the overall effect will be negligible.
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Did you not read my initial posting???


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Don't know... which one? ;) I seem to remember you said this had been an orchestrated purge. I don't see it that way. An electoral process is taking place, some issues had to be settled. I don't think the output of the settlement will change in any way the output of the electoral process. A purge means eliminating a fraction of the party stalinian-style. This is not what happened. If anything is redolent of stalinism here, it is the way the Michigan ballot was conducted.
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 1)

I'm a realist. IMO, it's politics as usual, the media spews BS, the politicians spew BS.  I'm just stating facts. In reference to Clinton taking this to the credentials committee; I think she should. IMO, most people that believe in voting don't think polls should decide how people voted. The Democratic Party is way out there on this one. They just set precedence; A great tool for Republicans to manipulate the system too.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:34:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

She's lucky she didn't get zero. That's what the "contests" were worth.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I'd say Obama's lucky she did get 0. You can run a "unity" campaign on a 49 state stategy.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:45:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

correction (none / 0)

did is--->didn't


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:46:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

It had nothing to do with Obama. He'd still campaign in MI & FL no matter what happened.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:46:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

campaign away...he will lose both states.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Your crystal ball is broken.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:54:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I'm going by polls where it shows McCain in the lead. I'm also going by the fact that Obama doesn't have the support of rural Americans.

What are you going by? The "new map?" Heh


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:11:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I don't know why you'd go off polls in May. If they indicated anything we'd be talking about President Kerry.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

another correction (none / 0)

can is---->can't

....more coffee.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:47:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I would have rather that Clinton not receive a single delegate rather than implementing an allocation based on exit polling data. Some Obama supporters believe that this is all about Clinton because for them this is all about Obama.


by Liberty on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 2)

Yes zero. That's what I'd prefer. However, the RBC did what the representatives of MI asked them to do.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:54:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

"I would have rather that Clinton not receive a single delegate rather than implementing an allocation based on exit polling data"

Was anyone in the Clinton side saying that before? That they'd prefer Michigan not be seated at all than be seated as 69-59 in their favor?

If they'd said that out loud, I'm sure many in the committee would have chosen to oblige them with the even-split solution that the Obama camp proposed.

That's why I tend to believe that trying to reach compromise solutions with the Clinton side was a fool's game -- Obama side should have either fought it to the end for the even-split, or completely surrendered to the Clinton proposal and defanged their argument via that way. Hoping that they'd appreciate a compromise between the two options was foolish of them.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

"The fashion in which the party elite purged the Clintons yesterday was purposeful and swift."--Liberty

LOL. I will say, the party has delivered Obama his "go with throttle up" moment. With no disrespect to the heros of the last shuttle disaster, the party elite can only hope those O Rings in Obama's campaign are in fine condition and have no leaks.


by superetendar on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (2.00 / 1)

The picture of Wexler pounding the table and screaming and demanding unity is not all that encouraging.

You can never demand unity, and the Democratic party elite, along with Obama, will soon learn this lesson. Notwithstanding how hard they try to flog the Clinton's into becoming Obama's unity surrogates.


by superetendar on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:57:01 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

You can never demand unity
Yes, that's ridiculous.

It's also ridiculous to claim that counting half a vote is Democracy.


by soyousay on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:04:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Why were you not outraged that Dems abroad have half a vote then?
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

I really don't think your experiences are terribly relevant.

Most voters simply don't follow state politics as closely as they follow Presidential politics, and the amount of attention paid to this particular primary is really unprecedented in recent times. Moreover, the period of time over which the primary has held the attention of voters is pretty much unprecedented, stretching back well over a year from before the date of the convention. The amount of pure hostility toward the opposing side is likewise unique in its breadth, depth, and duration in recent times. How does one get comfortable in a few short months with a side that was, in your eyes, treating you with the utmost disrespect for perhaps the better part of a year?

Consider the point of view of many Hillary supporters. Many of us have been called racists again and again by many Obama supporters. The campaign, Obama himself, and his fawning media supporters, have done a very great deal to foster the impression that, yes, it is in good part racism that fuels the Hillary side in this election.

Well, how do you work alongside people who just a few months back called you a racist, or traded on, and effectively encouraged, such accusations by others? I don't see why one is obliged in any way to do that. There truly are some insults that should be off limits, and trumping up charges of racism when they are not based on rock solid foundation is one among them. One is not obliged to make peace with an abuser simply because there's some larger purpose that supposedly requires you to put up with the abuse no matter what. That is how abusers always work: you can't walk out on me -- think of the children!

And this does not even address the equal or greater anger many women rightly have over the sexism that the Obama campaign has engaged in, or traded on, in this campaign.

I simply don't see how this gets patched up anytime soon -- certainly for many Hillary supporters, November is hardly going to be sufficient time.


by frankly0 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:10:23 AM EST

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

Its not my intention to argue with you, however there are many other examples then the one cited by the diarist. I've been working in Canada for years now and I saw the Chretien/Martin partnership result in 3 straight majority governments with the polls between elections rarely showing the Liberal Party less then 20 points ahead of their 2nd place rivals. Their supporters never liked each other at all, in fact the hatred between the two camps ultimately doomed the Liberals but only after 13 years of success. Moreover, the Chretien/Martin split didnt start in the leadership campaign of 1990 which Chretien won, but had been going on for 6 years previous to that. Furthermore, even though they were two old white men, identity politcs was very much a factor as they headed the Quebec federalist/nationalist camps that existed within the party.

The Labour Party in the UK also featured this dynamic all through Blair's government, but I know alot less about this.


by dead goat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

said - today - that Clinton will be the nominee so that doesn't sound like a graceful exit is coming.

BTW, John McCain voted to filibuster the minimum wage. John McCain doesn't support the troops. John McCain agrees with Bush's Iraq strategy. John McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade. John McCain supports NAFTA. John McCain is a puppet for the lobbyists. John McCain is fine letting our troops rot in Iraq for 100 years.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:21:53 AM EST

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

did you also miss the point Ickes point that once a candidate hits the required number, that is it?

jeez, selective listening.


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:24:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

You missed the part where I said I read it. jeez, selective reading!

If he said those two things together then he's insane.

BTW,
John McCain voted to filibuster the minimum wage. John McCain doesn't support the troops. John McCain agrees with Bush's Iraq strategy. John McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade. John McCain supports NAFTA. John McCain is a puppet for the lobbyists. John McCain is fine letting our troops rot in Iraq for 100 years.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

well, since I watched it fully, I didn't have the selective "listening" or "reading" mode on.

Of course he is going to still be gung-ho for his candidate.  But he is also stating that who ever (and he didn't state names) got to the required number is our nominee.  That isn't insane, that is what it is.

If Obama gets to it first, it is Obama.  If there is a miracle and all the SD's go to Hillary, it is Hillary.

see how that works?


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:28:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

That's not "gung-ho" that's crazy talk. A miracle? That's crazy talk.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:29:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

is this your first primary?  Do you remember Edwards stating that he would go on and yet he dropped out a few days later?

this is what campaigns DO.


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:30:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

Ickes pretended that a theft and travesty had taken place yesterday when in fact Clinton should have gotten ZERO delegates.

He's crazy.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:34:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

it would have been better not to seat the MI delegates based on how the RBC decided to split them.

exit polling??  If the republicans did this, you'd be upset about that as well.


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

It wasn't a fair contest. They should have gotten zero.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:38:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

you just wanted to take a swipe at Ickes, I understand.  But I wanted to show that your swipe was disingenuous at best.


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:31:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dunno but I read Ickes (none / 0)

You just showed that he's crazy. Thanks.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:38:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity can happen...I've seen it done... (none / 0)

"At this point, unity is the only thing that can save Obama for the 2008 election.  If Obama loses, unity is the only thing that can save Hillary's chances in 2012."

My thoughts exactly! More importantly, I firmly believe this is Hillary's thoughts as well.


by dead goat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:41:33 PM EST

IF (none / 0)

obama wins the nomination - unity can ONLY happen if hillary is the VP.

IF

hillary wins the nomination - unity can ONLY happen if obama is the VP.

OTHERWISE

there will be NO Unity.


by nikkid on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:00:27 PM EST


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