so now the press tells candidates when to quit?

i posted the diary below last week - but i thought it was fitting since even after a victory in indiana, they are at it again.

this diary is not about debating which candidate will or should win.  simply its about the shameful failure of the fourth estate. i suspect as mydd readers, we can all agree that the media has played a large role in shaping presidential primaries.  we saw it in 2000, 2004 (all to the detriment of the democratic party) and now again in 2008.  in a stunning article about the media during this election primary, eric boehlert at mediamatters discusses "how journalists have behaved during this campaign." and he names names!  as a former media student, i have said for a while now- and is now confirmed in this piece, that books will be written about the media's role in this democratic race.

history continues to unfold on many levels as the protracted democratic party primary race marches on, featuring the first woman and the first african-american with a real shot at winning the white house.  here's another first: the press's unique push to get a competitive white house hopeful to drop out of the race. it's unprecedented.

looking back through modern u.s. campaigns, there's simply no media model for so many members of the press to try to drive a competitive candidate from the field while the primary season is still unfolding.

until this election cycle, journalists simply did not consider it to be their job to tell a contender when he or she should stop campaigning. that was always dictated by how much money the campaign still had in the bank, how many votes the candidate was still getting, and what very senior members of the candidate's own party were advising.

snip

i realize the political debate surrounding the extended democratic campaign remains a hot one, with people holding passionate opinions about the delegate math involved and what the consequences for the democratic party could be. i'm not weighing in on that debate. i'm focusing on how journalists have behaved during this campaign.

snip

and the fact is, the media's get-out-now push is unparalleled. strong second-place candidates such as ronald reagan (1976), ted kennedy, gary hart, jesse jackson, and jerry brown, all of whom campaigned through the entire primary season, and most of whom took their fights all the way to their party's nominating conventions, were never tagged by the press and told to go home.

"clinton is being held to a different standard than virtually any other candidate in history," wrote steven stark in the boston phoenix. "when clinton is simply doing what everyone else has always done, she's constantly attacked as an obsessed and crazed egomaniac, bent on self-aggrandizement at the expense of her party." that represented just a fraction of the often offensive get-out-now proclamations that have become a staple of this campaign.

no longer content to be observers of the campaign, journalists now see themselves as active players in the unfolding drama, and they show no hesitation trying to dictate the basics of the contest, like who should run and who should quit. it's as if journalists are auditioning for the role of the old party bosses.

it's a new brand of political commentary that leaves some veteran journalists perplexed. "the idea that it's your job to tell candidates when to get out, and really trying to control the whole process -- putting it in the hands of the journalists or the reporters or the columnists -- i find that to be new and different," haynes johnson told me last week. a pulitzer prize-winning journalist, johnson has covered more than a dozen presidential campaigns and is currently working on a book about the unfolding 2008 contest.

johnson says he was astonished to read some early calls in march from the media for clinton to get out of the race. he was stunned by "the pomposity and the arrogance of it."

snip

indeed, a very strange leap has been made this year by lots of media commentators who argue against clinton's candidacy. rather than simply detailing her deficiencies and accentuating the strengths of her opponent, which political observers have done for generations, time and again we saw pundits take the unprecedented step of announcing not only that voters should not support clinton, but that she should also quit. she should stop competing.

snip

with clinton, though, the press seems to have almost complete disregard for the 14 million voters who have backed her candidacy, as well as the idea that she is their representative in this race. instead, they treat her entire campaign as some sort of vanity exercise in which voters do not exist.

i highly recommend that anyone who cares about the democratic party (no matter who you support) go and read the full article and sincerely hope that these 'journalists' get taken to task for their behavior.  for those that do not support HRC, maybe this article will shed some light on why so many of her supporters are so dismayed by what we are seeing unfold around us (omitting of course the state of the contest).  but ultimately what we have all witnessed is pretty revealing and makes one wonder why there has been a different standard applied here with this candidate than with anyone else in history...

http://mediamatters.org/columns/20080430 0001?f=h_column



Display:


Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 4)

the fourth estate has failed us - please rec'd.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:08 PM EST

Screw em (2.00 / 3)

they have been telling her to leave the race since she lost Iowa.


by nikkid on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:03:56 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

They can not stand Hillary is a fighter. Come on people we need to protest the media. Lets get 150 Hillary Clinton supporters together and stand outside every media across the country. Lets then bang pots and pans. That will show that evil media! Lets get a pots and pans protest going!


by Hillarywillwin on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:05:43 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

150 supporters? The Iraq war protest last Sept. had over 100,000. people in D.C. and the media totally ignored it. I was there, the crowd was impressive but the coverage was extremely disappointing. You think the media is going to listen to 150 people?

Write the media...I do it all the time. It's better than blogging.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

but they will cover it. Trust me! We can do it! The pots and pan protest must rise up and live again. Protesting NBC wasn't enough come on people! We need a new pots and pans protest!


by Hillarywillwin on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

Go away.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (1.50 / 2)

but they just did something bad on MSNBC a few moments ago. They said Hillary was like a shrimp with it's head cut off right now. How dare they get away with that type of language.


by Hillarywillwin on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

why are people abusing the ratings? I'm serious It was on Dan Abhrams show. Some guy said it. It was so horrible why do they get away with it?


by Hillarywillwin on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

They get away with it because they know it will entice people to watch. The more that watch, the more they can charge for advertisements.
by zenful6219 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

She lost NC by 14 points and won IN by 1.8%.  If she had done much better, the press would have reacted differently.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

yet Obama lost PA so what is the point?


by Hillarywillwin on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

Obama was in a very different position after PA than Clinton was after IN and SC.

In both cases, Obama had a lead in pledged delegates after the elections.  In both cases, Clinton did not.

Before PA, the press said that Clinton could go on should she win by 8-10 points at a minimum. She won by 9 points, so that was enough.  And she gained 200,000 in the popular vote. Still, superdelegates went disproportionately to Obama.

Before IN and SC, the Clinton campaign knew it had to do a lot. But it lost ground in the delegate race and was further behind in the popular vote. At the end of the day, it turned out that even if one included FL and MI, Clinton would need 75% of the pledged delegates to get a lead.

These realities are what shaped the media's view of the race.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

Bill Clinton told me though Hillary Could still win


by Hillarywillwin on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

You aren't doing very good satire. You should only mock people if you can be funny doing it.

And if you aren't mocking Clinton supporters, I apologize. It has become impossible to tell the snark from the serious around here lately.


by letterc on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Crazy isn't it? (2.00 / 2)

we can all agree that the media has played a large role in shaping presidential primaries.
You're absolutely freakin right. I've lost the little respect I had for the media and now rely on C-span or resort to flipping stations in order to get some kind of balance.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:08:38 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 3)

The media and some of our most cherished progressive blogs stopped caring about integrity and truth a long time ago. Sadly, their number one priority is revenue.
by zenful6219 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:09:09 PM EST

Intervention (none / 0)

Consider it a privately-funded intervention.  She hasn't accepted it, and her friends won't help...


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:12:38 PM EST

Re: Intervention (none / 0)

obviously one of four things happened:

  1. you didnt read the diary and/or article
  2. you're a troll
  3. you're a child
  4. you do not care about double standard when they are applied to women

so which one is it?


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intervention (1.00 / 1)

Obviously (4), because it's the most sinister and malignant.

More seriously, (1) -- I skimmed, because it looked pretty dull.


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Intervention (none / 0)

So you complain about the media, but want us to believe the media source you quoted. That's rich.
It's the media who have kept hillary relevant for the past month. They refused to discuss how she had no way mathmatically to catch up to Obama. You she be thanking them, they kept her in the race this long.
by venician on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

uh (none / 0)

Ya know, for all the MSM bashing that's going on (90% of it justified) where would we find more accurate coverage? Blogs like this one? With Rec'd diaries boast Hillary's 40% lead in the polls (it must be true! NoQuarter put it up! sure it didn't link back to a pollster, but they know what they're doing, right?). Maybe you could try a variety of reliable souces, WaPo, NYT, LATimes, BBC. There's good sources out there, but if you're not finding accurate info, it's because you're looking at the wrong sources.


by Djo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:15:04 PM EST

Re: uh (2.00 / 1)

try canadian news - if you read the linked article - they are not providing as you say - accurate data - this has become opinion journalism on practically every show and every channel in msm - even npr for goodness sake!


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

C-span (none / 0)

C-span...You ought to watch it sometime.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

The press isn't telling HRC to quit.

It's accurately reporting that she has no chance to win the pledged delegate count and that the superdelegates are disproportionately flocking to Obama.

What is inaccurate about what the press is saying?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:25:33 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 2)

Russert quote "It's over." Who gave Russert the authority to make that call?


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

The First Amendment gave Russert to say what he wants.

And he was stating this based on the fact that Clinton has no chance to win the pledged delegate count and that the superdelegates are disproportionately flocking to Obama.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

Russert has the right to say what he wants as long as MSNBC is OK with it. Apparently they are...if and when rating change so will MSNBC. I bet Fox ratings have recently picked up...afterall, one bias media is no worse than another.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

btw -their ratings already have.

"Fox News finished April as the seventh most highly rated cable network in prime time. CNN finished at #21 and MSNBC finished 29th.

In Total Day, FNC came in at #9, well ahead of CNN (25th) and MSNBC (30th).

Fox News had nine of the top ten highest rated programs for the month of April, with The O'Reilly Factor capturing the top spot again. CNN's highest rated show was Larry King Live (7th), while MSNBC's was Countdown with Keith Olbermann (19th)."

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/rati ngs/april_ratings_rankers_83669.asp

enough said.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

But MSNBC is doing best with the viewers advertisers want most -- younger viewers.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

An opinion? stats?


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I've read this so many different places. But no i don't have a link to provide - don't have the energy for it tonight.  Lots of graduation events at my university tomorrow!


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

What is enough said about that...?

That people are lying down with dogs regardless of the flea risk because they are telling them what they want to hear...?

Don't tout Faux News' numbers here...  Even if Clinton became the nominee.... or especially if she did... they would turn on her and the Democrats before the inks was dry on the announcement.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

As I mentioned previously...Fox is bias and so is MSNBC. Most of us are fully aware of that. IMO, one is no better than the other. The media is the mouthpiece by the corporations, of the corporations and for the corporations.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I'll take MSNBC's "bias" as opposed to Faux'.... at least they would be biased toward the Democrats instead of against them.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:48:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

do you know anything about media?  im guessing no from your answers - i do not watch fox (save for the HRC's interview last week) - but the numbers do not lie and are from mediabistro about viewership number - this is not partisan or up for debate.  media generally gains profits from circulation numbers or in the case of tv - viewership which dictates ad rates.  msnbc's numbers are not good.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:13:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I know a lot about the media and I know a lot about Faux... they should not even be considered media anymore... more like the press arm for the Radical Right wing...

And, just as your numbers show Faux doing well, there are others showing the reasons behind the numbers...

Such as:

"The facts show that the only cable news shows that get over 1 million viewers are all on FOX, and that if a Republican does a cable news show on any other network they are dead last in the ratings, or next to last. What that shows is the only people who want to watch Republican news are the people who watch the FOX news channel. What a shocker, Republicans like to watch Republican biased news shows.

But when you take those Republicans off the FOX network nobody watches them. That kills the O'Reilly myth that people only watch Republicans. It also shows that if a liberal does a good news show like Keith Olbermann does people will watch. And if Olbermann was on CNN he would probably get over 1 million viewers and be in the top 5 in ratings, his ratings are limited because he is on MSNBC, which is not on in as many households as CNN and FOX are."  From "O'Reilly-sucks.com


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

um - did you just google this? lol i work in media and i assure that none of what i provided is based on opinion.  this has nothing to do with fox or my opinion of it.  numbers are numbers - this is how media buyers buy ads - based on viewership - period.  they dont really care who is on, what the show is about, the political leanings of the pundit - all media buyers care about is diffusing their message.  KO's viewership numbers are not very high.

and its my understanding that this is one of the reasons they are squeezing chris matthews out to try and promote KO.  maybe they can get rid of both of them i wonder?


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:02:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

Actually, if you look at the age demographic breakdowns for O'Reilly and for Olbermann, the majority of BO's audience is over 59.... no limit listed on that, but over 59 is not a target demographic for many advertisers... that does not bode well for his future...

Oh, and I read O'Reilly-sucks on a regular basis... it is a great read because O'Reilly sucks....


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

Then why are you posting this diary?

BTW, the talking heads on FAUX are also asking when Hillary will drop out. As is everyone on capitol hill. As are people on Hillary's own staff. As are regular people who can see the forest for the trees.

The longer Hillary's supporters insist on denying reality the more crushing it's going to be when she finally drops out in a couple of weeks.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least start to consider the possibility that she will not win.

Actually... the FACT that she will not win.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

what is with you people?  and by you people - i mean BO supporters.  do you have any interest in discussing anything but bashing or criticizing HRC?  this diary is not about the primary!  it is about the media's role in shaping this and applying a unique standard to the first female candidate.  FOX sucks, MSNBC sucks and in fact most US media sucks.

they failed dems in 2000, 2004, 2008 and in iraq - but no lets discuss why BO is the winner.  sheesh.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

I'm saying a unique standard doesn't exist in any sense other than maybe creating the impression that Hillary had more of a chance than she actually had. The reason that Tim Russert declared the race over is because it had actually ended more than a month ago. They had artificially made it appear as though she had an actual shot. And as long as she kept winning in friendly states by substantial margins they could keep up that impression, but her campaign could not afford to come up short in any meaningful way or the house of cards (that the media had built) would collapse. In IN she came up short and now the cards have fallen. She will not be the nominee - the media is simply reflecting that FACT at this point. This has nothing to do with whether I'm a BO supporter or not, try to look at the numbers objectively.

There is nothing sexist about this. They said the same things to Mike Huckabee when it became clear he couldn't win. The said the same things to Joe Lieberman in 04 when it became clear he couldn't win. They said the same things to Bill Bradley when it became clear he couldn't win. They said the same things to John McCain is 2000 when it became clear he couldn't win. They said the same things to Jim Brown when it became clear he couldn't win. I could go on and on and on for days. Everyone who has ever lost a primary was asked why they should keep going when it was clear they couldn't win. Most people have the common sense to drop out once they reach that point. I'm sure Hillary will find that sense soon enough.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

why did you even bother responding?  you are doing the same thing again.  for the last time - this is not about the race or BO it is about the media.  if you read the linked article you would know this.  and incidentally - this article was written BEFORE last tuesday friend!


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

I spent a whole paragraph writing about how the media has for years.. decades asked the candidates the question "Why are you still running?" when they reach the point where they can't win. Hillary hit that point at Wisconsin... and if anything the media has taken it easy on her. Any male candidate would have gotten the Mike Huckabee treatment... of isn't it funny he's still running? This isn't a case of sexism... just an inability of supporters to handle objective facts.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

the math?  again - these are talking points of one campaign.  HRC's chances are small now, but they (the press) and you (BO supporters) have been calling for her to get out for months.  now where we have a problem is that journalists have never historically done this before, in races not with male candidates not even as close as this.  like kennedy, etc. so you can go off and tell yourself whatever you like about the media because it benefits your candidate - but that doesnt make it right.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

That's not true. Mike Huckabee (a man last time i checked) was being asked why he was still in the race when he was only about 200 delegates behind John McCain... when McCain more than a month away from being able to claim a lock on the nomination. But the math was in inconvenient thing for him. He had no reasonable shot, and so he was ridiculed for staying in. But I didn't bring up the math in my last post. Bill Bradly (also a man) was asked why he was still running after March 7th (the super tuesday of that year) even though democrats had the same proportional allocation and super delegate system that meant he was still technically viable. Because he was no longer actually viable.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

BTW Huckabee at the time he was asked to leave the race had a much better chance the the nomination. There were many more contests left and the winner take all system of the republicans would have made it easy for him to make up the delegate ground with McCain. If McCain had stumbled badly... made a gaffe, had an unfortunate scandal revealed, etc. Huckabee would probably be the nominee. As it is now Obama could loose all the remaining state contest by 15% and the remaining supers by 15% and he would still be the nominee.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:42:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

by the way BO has not secured the magic number and im sorry - this race is much closer than that - but whatever gets you through the night.  i dont want to argue with you anymore.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

You haven't tried to disprove a single point... so I'd hardly call it arguing.


by Tatan on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (2.00 / 2)

Some history: Many candidates have gone to the convention with a lot less than Hillary has.  And, many surprises have indeed occurred.  Live awhile, and you might see that.  Consider: If the fight were really over, the coordinated push from the Obama camp and the media would not have to occur.  It would just be.  When people declare something very loudly and stamp their feet, they don't make a stronger case.  They just don't want you to think about all the options.


by christinep on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

There is no stronger case to be made than the numbers themselves. That case is irrefutable and it will only grow more so in the coming days.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:08:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

enlighten me... what options? Seating FL & MI? Fine seat them, she still isn't ahead. The supper delegates shifting en mass? Since super tuesday they gone to Obama 9:1. So what options are there? The fact is her one-in-a-million chance involved winning every favorable contest from wisconsin on by sizable margins thereby making the case the Obama had an electability problem. She had to increase her margins from state to state. She had to make him look incredibly weak in order to put real fear into the supers. But she pandered in the gas tax and Obama came back with "I'm going to tell you the truth, it's not going to work" and her margins collapsed. He was the better candidate and he proved that definitively in Indiana, so the entire case she had been building since March 4th collapsed. The house of cards fell apart and now she's left without any reasonable path to the nomination and the awareness on the part of any objective observer that she will not be the nominee.


by Tatan on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

Given the margin, she could go after pledged delegates as well as un-pledged delegates. She wouldn't have to pick off many pledged delegates to get a win. Given that with a win she will be the next president, there are a lot of patronage slots in the administration that could be handed out. Hell, she and Bill are super rich, $500,000 per delegate would get her in range where MI and FL would do the rest. Plus, as an ex-president, Bill has the connections to dig up a lot of dirt on delegates, so some could be blackmailed.

I don't think she'd actually do any of that (except go after pledged delegates), but that is how the game used to be practiced.

I think most losing candidates who have gone all the way to fight at the convention in the past 30 years have had bigger policy differences with the winner than Clinton and Obama have with each other.


by letterc on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

Ok... and if pigs could fly with could bacon-buffalo wings. When you come back to reality, the rest of us will be here waiting for you.


by Tatan on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

WE could have bacon-buffalo wings.


by Tatan on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:14:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (none / 0)

Many candidates have gone to the convention with less than Hillary has...?

Who are this many...?  The last time w had a convention without a nominee was Carter v. Kennedy in 1980...  


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MSNBC is so irrelevant (2.00 / 2)

Read the article that canadian girl is quoting from. It is at the link at the bottom.

Jerry Brown, Jesse Jackson, Gary Hart, Ted Kennedy, Ronald Reagan (in '76) all campaigned full on throughout the primary season and did not release their delegates at the nominating convention. In all cases (including 1980), the eventual winner had a clear lead in delegates (in '84, neither Hart nor Mondale had enough pledged delegates to win, but Mondale had a lock on the super delegates). 1980 was the last convention where the fight over who would get the nomination was sufficiently brutal that it looked unclear who the nominee would be, but that one was actually even more settled at the pledged delegate level than this one (Kennedy went to the convention asking that the convention change its rules at a fundamental level, so that he could ask the pledged delegates for Carter to switch over and vote for Kennedy, way more extreme than anything Clinton would need to do at the convention).

All Clinton has to do at the convention is challenge the method of seating MI and FL, and try to sway SDs and pledged delegates.

I don't think she should, but that doesn't change the answer to your question.


by letterc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:39:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

What are you talking about? He was stating his opinion. He wasn't actually ending the race. He has no authority to force Clinton to stop, he wasn't claiming any, and this inflating of the media's "authority" just so you can bewail them is inane.


by Addison on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Russert quote (2.00 / 1)

Russert quote "It's over." Who gave Russert the authority to make that call?


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

thats not telling Hillary to quit, thats simply saying we know who the nominee is, you are free to disagree and in a month we will see who was right

you or Russert.

for me? well I think my sig gives it away


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (2.00 / 1)

thats simply saying we know who the nominee is

Once again, who gave Russert the authority to call the race?
by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

The first amendment allows him to express his opinion.  And you have a right to disagree. But most people, looking at the reality of the nominating contest, agree with his conclusions.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

This is true. That's why I think MSNBC should play the Rev. Wright videos over and over again during the GE. :D


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

Should or shouldn't, they probably will.

I actually think that Russert's comment is no match for the sorts of comments that the article canadian girl linked to gives. Russert didn't advocate an action on anyone's part, he just engaged in news analysis, pretty much the same news analysis that almost everyone else reached (including many, many Clinton supporters): winning big in IN and holding NC to a slim margin was the only way that Clinton could continue to argue that Obama was a damaged candidate for the GE, and the only way that she could end up winning the popular vote by any sane count (not that it means much, but it was one of the things that she was arguing should count, and now it will count against her instead of for her).


by letterc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (2.00 / 1)

But most people, looking at the reality of the nominating contest, agree with his conclusions.
Who agree and who doesn't agree is irrelevant.


by soyousay on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

Presumably Russert's boss gave him the authority to call the race. Anticipating your next questions, Russert's boss got his authority from Russert's boss's boss, and the ultimate authority came from the shareholders. If you're not happy with their decision, you can buy one share of stock and bring up your concerns at the next shareholders' meeting.

I'm guessing this is the first election you've ever paid attention to. The press almost always calls the race before all the votes have been counted. They called NC for Sen. Obama one minute after the polls closed, and they'll call WV for Sen. Clinton one minute after the polls close there.


by mazement on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

um - with due respect - i think either this is the first election you've ever paid attention to or are not paying to much attention to the media you consume.  russert said - the democratic race is over, not this primary is over.  just as time put BO on the cover as the nominee - im not saying HRC has a chance or not - but she is still in it and its highly unethical to do what they are doing.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

Well, yes. The Democratic race is over in the sense that we know who the winner is going to be. Neither candidate has a majority of the delegates yet but we've got enough information to make a rock-solid prediction.

The same thing happened earlier this year with the Republican race. The media called the race for Sen. McCain, even before he had a majority of the delegates. In theory Gov. Huckabee could have gotten the nomination by winning every remaining primary, but we had enough information to know that wasn't going to happen.

I don't see why this is unethical, unless you think it falls under the ban on fortunetelling and soothsaying. But that rule was really put into place to keep people from making bargains with demons. We're not doing that; we're just applying basic statistics. Is it unethical to say, "There will be no snowfall in Florida this August"?


by mazement on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:35:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Russert quote (none / 0)

please read the linked article.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:49:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I'd mojo you but i don't have that abilty!

so Kudos to you for stating it like it is. some HRC supporters refuse to admit its over, thats fine but for some reason they expect the rest of the world to pretend along with them that Hillary can win.

they don't want to admit the truth fine, but they need to stop thinking the rest of the world will play along.

the very fact that Hillary's campaign has all but COMPLETELY stopped attacking Obama in any way tells you something, they know he is the nominee and they know the supers won't allow her campaign to attack him anymore.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

i think you are misunderstanding my position and this diary is about the media.  but i guess the BO echo chamber continues.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm disagreeing with you.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

no thanks!


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

No thanks what?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I understood your position, but I wasn't replying to you.

you are free to believe the race isn't over yet, and you can join the rest of us next month when Hillary finally drops out.

you know she is done, your point is the media shouldn't say it until Hillary is ready, well I disagree.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

this article was written BEFORE last tuesday.  and btw did you read the linked article?  if so - you would see that there is not precedent EVER for what has gone on this year with the press and HRC.  but i guess your position is that anything good for BO is good no matter if its unethical or unfair.  nice.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

oh please, the media has helped Hillary as much as it has hurt her, but thats fine you are free to believe what you want, doesn't effect me any.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:25:41 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

The press gave Hillary 2 months of life.

It is the press then that will euthanize her campaign.


by cherrygarcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:32:00 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 2)

We must ignore these self-centered robots that parade around telling millions of Clinton Voters that the race is over, and for Hillary to get out. They can enjoy their short lived celebration compliments of the media pundits and commentators. The more the media throws dirt at Hillary, the more her supporters will come out in full force and put them in their place. We will see this happen next Tuesday and I can't wait.


Steven Shaman Publisher Skywatch-Media News
by steve468 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:44:34 PM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

WV will make virtually no difference in the pledged delegate count.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

And if, after next Tuesday, and all the Tuesdays that follow, and the math has not changed, what then will you say?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

I thought Hillary found her voice in New Hamsphire.

GO HILLSTER!

WOOT!

WOOT!


by cherrygarcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

Unfortunately, she allowed Mark Penn to mute her voice after that...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

ill say exactly what i am saying now - the fourth estate has failed you, me and everyone else.  and suffice is to say - this has been going on for months - the math is irrelevant - its about journalism.  


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

The journalism is covering the math because delegates select the nominee.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

You mean West Virgina is going to save hillary? W.V has a total of 39 pledged delegates up for grabs. How is that going help? You could thatch a roof with all the straw you're grasping at.


by venician on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (1.00 / 1)

see you people don't understand EVERYTHING up till now was practice West Virgina THIS is the real contest who ever wins West Virgina should be the nominee, sure this ignores every vote before now but lets be honest alot of them didn't even count, some had to many black people, or were in red states, or were caucuses, or had to many well off educated people, or had to many activists who care just a tad to much.

I mean COME ON, how important are Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Maine, or Virgina? seriously come has anyone EVER said as Missouri, or Washington, or Georgia, or Ct goes so goes the nation? I think not.

nope you all wait and see, West Virgina thats the game changer alright!


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (1.00 / 1)

She should be sworn in immediately after the race is called for her.


by venician on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:19:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (none / 0)

Only WV matters!  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

First

until this election cycle, journalists simply did not consider it to be their job to tell a contender when he or she should stop campaigning.

Obviously false statement for anyone who remembers any previous election.

Second, the press tells the candidates the math, your argument acts as if the press was making up the funding shortfalls and the near impossibility of Clinton getting enough delegates.

Third, the press can't MAKE the candidate quit.


by Addison on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:35:33 PM EST

The press has not been perfect, but... (none / 0)

it is their duty to inform the public when a candidate for a party's nomination no longer has any viable path to winning that nomination. The press would have been derelict in its duty after Indiana if they did not inform the public that there was really no way for Hillary to win. They owe it to the public to report that.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:40:25 PM EST

re (2.00 / 2)

Wish they had told Kennedy to quit in 1980 when he was challenging the incumbent President of his own party and had nowhere near enough delegates unlike Hillary who has a sizable chunk and almost as many as Obama.


by rossinatl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:09:51 PM EST

Better to take advice from Courtney Love (none / 0)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=phwsVE8ucyA




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:35:56 PM EST

The calender will force Clinton to quit (none / 0)

This idea that Clinton will quit when she decides the time is right is nonsense.  The calander will force her to quit.  Once the last primaries are run, the DNC solves the issue of MI and FL, and superdelegates make their call, the race will be over.

All the press is doing is reporting likelihoods.  They're probably on the mark.  The back end of the race has played out the way people predicted it would back in March.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:56:39 PM EST

Re: The calender will force Clinton to quit (none / 0)

The article canadian girl links to isn't about Russert or the response to IN and NC, it is about earlier actual calls by editorial writers for Clinton to quit.

Of course, I am not confident that editorial writers never called for previous candidates to quit running. Even if they didn't, the press use to have an even more powerful weapon that they have much less of now. They could simply ignore a candidate once they decided he had lost.


by letterc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The calender will force Clinton to quit (none / 0)

the whole point is - who are they to decide when someone lost?  they did it to gore as well... sigh


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

It seems to me that a major difference between Clinton's position now and the position of previous losing candidates who didn't suspend their campaigns (and I don't think anyone expects Clinton to release her pledged delegates to acclaim Obama, I think we will still see a divided floor vote) is that Clinton is still running on the idea that she can win and that Obama can't. In the other races, the losing candidate was running to make sure that a position is heard and spoken for at the convention. If Edwards had stayed in, his positions were different enough from Obama and Edwards, that his staying in with way too few votes to win would have made sense. Clinton and Obama's positions aren't different enough for Clinton to be still running to represent a position that won't be heard and, even more importantly, that isn't what she has been running on.

I think the biggest difference isn't that Clinton is a woman (although the specific form of the demands to drop out undoubtedly is), but that the news media has become much more based in partisan punditry since the last seriously contested primary in 1992. Saying vile and ridiculous things, engaging in rancorous partisan attacks is a big part of how people move up at the top levels of the info-tainment industry these days. Making demands on a presidential candidate just helps to get your name noticed, where 20 years ago it would have marked you as not part of the serious journalist class. IMHO.


by letterc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:05:49 AM EST

Re: so now the press tells candidates when to quit (2.00 / 1)

Shorter me.

The press sucks. The press is sexist. The press demanding Clinton drop out has more to do with the Foxification and the blogification of the press than with the press being sexist.


by letterc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

canadian gal, not girl, apologies (none / 0)

canadian gal,

Several times in this thread I have referred to you as canadian girl. I just noticed that I had misread your name (gal isn't really part of my vocabulary). I apologize for the error and for any offense given to you or to anyone else.


by letterc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:13:29 AM EST


You are not logged in.

In order to post a comment, you must be logged in. If you have a member account, please log in to comment.

If not, you can make an account right here. It's quick and free.