Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana?

Excuse me.  Could the inflated talking heads -- and that includes you Mr. Russert and you Ms. Brazile -- shut up for two seconds?

No?

Ok, just press mute and tune out the Pundit Choir (plus, embarassingly, the voices of some progressive bloggers) singing Clinton's swan song at the top of their lungs.  Because I would appreciate a serious response to a serious question:

Why couldn't Barack Obama win the state of Indiana?

Let me re-phrase that:

Why did Barack Obama lose the state of Indiana, a state his own campaign predicted he would win in February, a state he declared would be a "tie breaker," a state in which 25% of the electorate lives in Obama's hometown media market?

The headlines this morning are so predictably anti-Clinton, and once again resemble a bulleted list from barackobamadotcom::

Hillary loses support of white women!
Obama cuts into Hillary's base!
Obama was cheated in Indiana!
It's over for Hillary!
Obama landslide in North Carolina!

Honest headlines written by professionals who still give a damn about objectivity -- you know, that extinct breed -- might read:

Clintons Pulls Off Upset in Indiana
Obama wins North Carolina, as Expected
Obama Loses White Vote by 26 Points in NC

That's right.  Here is a Fact Check for anyone still interested in unbiased election reports:

1.  Obama was favored to win Indiana all along.  Both campaigns had internal predictions that Obama would carry Indiana by approximately 7 points.  Only recently did Clinton begin polling favorably there and once Obama started spending outrageous sums of money on negative ads, Clinton's double-digit lead returned to earth.

2.  25% of the Indiana electorate lives in the Chicago media market, Obama's hometown!  On the day before the primary, the Obama campaign spent $300,000 advertising in that neighboring market.

3. Clinton's share of white women did go down in Indiana, compared to Ohio and Pennsylvania, which one might expect given Obama's aggressive advertising campaign targeted at that demographic, but she still won over 60% of the white vote in Indiana, which means she picked up some white men (is that being reported? no).  Somehow, though, this is being cast as "Clinton lost white women" in support of the meme that Clinton lost support among her white base yesterday.  It's simply false.  She has been gaining white support since February 5th.  

4. Indiana is the only state neighboring Illinois that Obama has lost.

And, although this post is about Indiana...

5. Clinton also improved her share of the white vote in North Carolina (over 60% compared to 50% in Virginia).  And again.. it's not being widely reported.  Obama's share of the African American vote increased in North Carolina as well.

Cliff notes for the weary:  Clinton is the one who out-performed expectations yesterday.  Clinton's core base grew, and Obama did not cut into it.  Obama lost ground in Indiana.  A big Rezko-sized lot full of ground.  A net 9-point loss from his own projections.  Despite massive advertising expenditures and a hometown advantage with 25% of the electorate, Obama could not close the deal in Indiana.

On April 11, Obama himself predicted that Indiana would be a tie-breaker:

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. -- On the second day of his Indiana bus tour, Obama said the state could be a potential "tiebreaker" in the lengthy nomination process.

"I think Indiana is very important," Obama said. "We've got three contests coming up in pretty big states -- Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Indiana. They all have significant numbers of delegates, and they are states where Sen. Clinton and I are actively campaigning."

"You know, Sen. Clinton is more favored in Pennsylvania," he added, "and I'm right now a little more favored in North Carolina, so Indiana right now may end up being the tiebreaker. So we want to work very hard in Indiana. While Sen. Clinton has some advantages here, I benefit coming from an adjoining state."  MSNBC.com

Senator Obama was correct.  They both campaigned actively in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Indiana.  He was also right in predicting that she would win Pennsylvania and he would win North Carolina.

And Indiana is the tie-breaker.  Now, Senator Obama is a smart guy.  I don't think he would have said this had he expected to lose Indiana.  So what happened?

It wasn't Rev. Wright, of course, many analysts have already concluded (including myDD's own Jonathan Singer).  But how do they know?  50% of voters told CNN that Rev. Wright made a difference in their vote, and Obama lost ground with white voters.  Maybe it was Rev. Wright.  Or William Ayres, the Weather Underground friend standing on top of the American flag. Or Obama's unguarded characterization of bitter small-town Americans. Or maybe it was just the slow-motion epiphany that Sen. Obama is not yet ready for the most trusted job in the world.

(The Obama campaign, by the way, is blaming his Indiana loss on Rush Limbaugh, but that's not supported by exit polls, which indicate that the percentage of Republicans who voted for Clinton was consistent with the share of Democrats who voted for her.)

I am sick and fed up of the mainstream media, in particular Obama-drooling Cable TV weaklings such as Tim Russert who dominate prime-time airwaves, distorting facts and misusing the public's trust in order to spin Hillary Clinton out of the race.

Another example:  there are a growing number of articles suggesting that African Americans will "abandon" the Democratic Party en masse in November if Obama is not the nominee.  But I don't hear anyone pointing out that white Democrats might do the same if Clinton is not the nominee, despite the exit-poll data on race and despite that up to 50% of Clinton voters now state that they would never vote for Obama.  

Why would anyone (such as a Superdelegate) assume that white Democrats will ultimately be more loyal to the Party than black Democrats?  Isn't that racist?

Barack Obama lost Indiana.  And I just beg someone more visible and important than an anonymous citizen blogger such as myself, someone like Wolf Blitzer or Britt Hume for instance, to pose the question:  Why did Barack Obama LOSE Indiana, a state he had every reason to win?  And what does his loss mean for the Democrats in November if Obama is the nominee?

Note: Exit poll data from CNN.com for Indiana and North Carolina.

TexasDarlin, all rights reserved.

Cross posted at TexasDarlin



Display:


Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (1.90 / 21)

If the mainstream media would do its job, bloggers wouldn't have to.


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:06:22 PM EST

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 14)

Thank you for this excellent analysis, Texas Darlin'.

Bottom line: Obama can't close the deal.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He just did (1.83 / 12)

Team Clinton is just playing out the final two minutes of a game it's trailing by 20.  She might score a few more baskets but the scrubs have taken the floor.


by JJE on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He just did (2.00 / 4)

Heh.. I'm from Kansas, and we know how to win, especially when folks on the other team keep missing free shots.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

in that case (2.00 / 1)

you should surely know you need a miracle comeback if you letting the other team go on a massive run in the middle of the game.  Tarheels didn't choke last night like they did in April.


by JJE on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OBAMA WAS FAVORED TO WIN INDIANA ALL ALONG??? (2.00 / 5)

Nice try, but no.

Final Results    --    --    50.7    49.3    Clinton +1.4

RCP Average    05/02 - 05/05    --    49.0    44.0    Clinton +5.0

Zogby Tracking    05/04 - 05/05    644 LV    43    45    Obama +2.0
InsiderAdvantage    05/04 - 05/04    502 LV    48    44    Clinton +4.0
SurveyUSA    05/02 - 05/04    675 LV    54    42    Clinton +12.0
Suffolk    05/03 - 05/04    600 LV    49    43    Clinton +6.0
PPP (D)    05/03 - 05/04    851 LV    51    46    Clinton +5.0
Zogby Tracking    05/03 - 05/04    636 LV    42    44    Obama +2.0
ARG*    05/02 - 05/04    600 LV    53    45    Clinton +8.0
Zogby Tracking    05/02 - 05/03    559 LV    41    43    Obama +2.0
Zogby Tracking    05/01 - 05/02    629 LV    42    43    Obama +1.0
Insider Advantage    04/30 - 05/01    478 LV    47    40    Clinton +7.0
Downs Center    04/28 - 04/30    689 LV    52    45    Clinton +7.0
Zogby Tracking    04/30 - 05/01    680 LV    42    42    Tie
Rasmussen    04/29 - 04/29    400 LV    46    41    Clinton +5.0
ARG*    04/30 - 05/01    600 lV    53    44    Clinton +9.0
TeleResearch    04/25 - 04/29    943 LV    48    38    Clinton +10.0
PPP (D)    04/27 - 04/28    1347 LV    50    42    Clinton +8.0
SurveyUSA    04/25 - 04/27    628 LV    52    43    Clinton +9.0
Howey-Gauge    04/23 - 04/24    600 LV    45    47    Obama +2.0
ARG*    04/23 - 04/24    600 LV    50    45    Clinton +5.0
Research 2000    04/23 - 04/24    400 LV    47    48    Obama +1.0
Indy Star/Selzer    04/20 - 04/23    535 LV    38    41    Obama +3.0
Downs Center    04/14 - 04/16    578 LV    45    50    Obama +5.0
LA Times/Bloomberg    04/10 - 04/14    554 LV    35    40    Obama +5.0
SurveyUSA    04/11 - 04/13    571 LV    55    39    Clinton +16.0
ARG*    04/02 - 04/03    600 LV    53    44    Clinton +9.0
Research 2000    03/31 - 04/02    400 LV    49    46    Clinton +3.0
SurveyUSA    03/29 - 03/31    530 LV    52    43    Clinton +9.0


by doschi on Wed May 07, 2008 at 09:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OBAMA WAS FAVORED TO WIN INDIANA ALL ALONG??? (none / 0)

Great post.  As usual around here, posts containing factual information that destroys the diarist's premise are simply ignored.


Indiana and North Carolina: "Just a flesh wound..."
by chinapaulo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:47:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (1.77 / 9)

Top line - everywhere: Obama is closing the deal.

Anymore baseless assertions to share?


Unable to rec or rate
by duende on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (1.57 / 7)

KnowVox,  please keep up the good entertainment.

Obama can't close the deal,   please give us more 1 line zingers like that.


Unable to rec or rate

Read this: http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/1427 30/254

by GeorgeP922 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 5)

Obama can't close the deal, which is why he LOST in Indiana, despite having the home court Chicago media advantage and outspending HRC 2-1 and 3-1.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 5)

He's such a naughty boy, outspending Hillary, and even worse: SPENDING OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

1.5 million people have contributed to his campaign, and what does he do - spend it on winning the primaries? How dare he.

And how dare he bribe superdelegates by contributing to their down ticket campaigns too.

It's outrageous. Campaign finance should be raised by a few rich donors, who then go on paying a few rich lobbyists and media corporations. That's the way it's done. That's the way to make America more democratic and responsible,

MEMO TO OBAMA: stop spending other people's money. Try spending some of your own


Unable to rec or rate
by duende on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 1)

I think Obama might even try the ssame tactic in the general election and outspend his opponent!Dirty, cheatin', arugala-eatin' uppity black man!


by soccerandpolitics on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

er, he did not outspend her 2:1, let alone 3:1 in IN. Can you come up with a credible source for that bit of questionable information?


by notedgeways on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

Why do they ignore the fact that Obama is forking out HUGE amounts of money? He's outspending 2/3 to 1 and he still lost Indiana. Is that their idea of closing the deal?


by zenful6219 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

Not only does he utilize his superior campaign donations, but he also gives inspiring speeches and registers thousands of new voters!  I hate it when he wins dirty!


by soccerandpolitics on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:32:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

you're making the Obama supporters' argument for them - Hillary can't raise enough money to win against Obama - how is she supposed to beat the VRWC if she can't raise the money?  Hmmmm?


by brooklyngreenie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

he i snot closing the deal (2.00 / 4)

he is losing every state where there is not a huge AA population.  He even lost a few points in that demographic in IN.  
what is his problem and when will the party save us from this 50 state disaster?
For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (2.00 / 7)

There sure are a ton of blacks in Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Kansas, North Dakota, Idaho, etc.

Want to make up some more facts?


by PSUdan on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (none / 0)

Were not most of these wins in states like IA, MN, NE, KS, ND, and ID by Obama due to the rigged caucus process?, which TX proved to everyone!  I do not think any of these states like IA, MN, NE, KS, ND, and ID have huge AA populations like they do in SC, NC, GA, MS, AL, LA.  Most of these deep southern states have not been carried by a Democrat since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed.  They all went Republican and will do so again in November.  I do not see Obama winning any of the states in the South that I listed here!

This election should have been a slamdunk for the Dems in 2008, but now race and gender has raised its ugly head in our party giving McCain a sure win in November.  It makes one want to weep.


by mcctx on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He won more primaries than her (none / 0)

and we're going to win NC this year.  NC is lead by the nose by VA and VA is goimg Dem this year if only to elect their oh-so popular former governor Mark Warner.


In Honor of Caro: Called a sexist, self-hating Jew, Kool-aid drinking automaton. Why can't the healing begin? I don't blame you for it.
by nklein on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He won more primaries than her (none / 0)

I don't know where you get your information.  North Carolina is not Virginia.  The heavy AA vote can win the primary for you but the general is a totally different game.  Obama will not win N.C.  If he's the nominee, McCain will take N.C.  I made calls here for three weeks.  And I heard it over and over and over - from Democrats - they'll vote for McCain if Obama's the nominee.


by Tolstoy on Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:54:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He won more primaries than her (none / 0)

By the fact that NC has always throughout its history voted as VA, from presidential elections to the constitutional amendments.  Check out a political history of NC.


In Honor of Caro: Called a sexist, self-hating Jew, Kool-aid drinking automaton. Why can't the healing begin? I don't blame you for it.
by nklein on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (none / 0)

Who in the heck started throwing snot around! Good lord! Clean it up!


by futbol dad on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (2.00 / 0)

Don't forget my state, WI.  Everyone always forgets us and we are actually one of the larger states.  We are mostly white and Obama won almost 60% of the vote here.


by catalysis on Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't Forget Utah (2.00 / 0)

There's about as many blacks in Utah as there are Clinton supporters there--almost none.


by soccerandpolitics on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (2.00 / 6)

Let's count some states with a huge AA population:

WA,ID,MN,ND,WI,MA,NH,CO,UT,NV,WY,HI...

off the top of my head.


by reenactor on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (2.00 / 0)

Alaska. I've heard it's like Detroit North.


by jbill on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (none / 0)

East St. Louis.  Mos def.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:46:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

a separate tally for Black votes? (1.80 / 5)

Should we not be counting Black Democrats votes?

Maybe the Democratic Party should have a "White" pre-primary. Once the Dem Party has established the stronger candidate with "White" voters then Blacks could either ratify the choice or skip the primary.

Would that kind of voting system be an improvement in your mind?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why can't hillary catch up (2.00 / 1)

Oh how sad you are teresa. Hillary couldn't pull out the major victory she needed last night. Once again Teflon Obama wins the day. And now hillarys chances are slipping away fast.
Drip
Drip
Drip
The way the loser loses will determine whether the winner wins in November. Rahm Emanuel
by venician on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he i snot closing the deal (1.66 / 3)

A new item in the list of conditions under which Hillary would already be the nominee: if African American votes only counted 3/5.


by zomoskeptic on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 6)

Obama is closing the deal everywhere?  Like Calif, Tex, Ohio, Penn, Fla., Indiana, NJ?


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

Except that he'll likely win 3, if not for of them.


by Tenafly Viper on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 3)

Even scarier, he's closing the deal in states Democrats never win in the general.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 2)

Thats only if you use old election maps..

Obama and his netroots campaign have redrawn the electoral map. In most states I believe that registered Democrats now outnumber republicans.

Hillary's focus is only on the handful of big states.. the non latte sippers( Like New York and California.. those latte haters?)
Obama will bring many more states into play.
You see its a change in how politics is done..

We can stick to the old and obviously loosing, big state strategy, like Clinton...
or we can embrace the new changing American population and attitude which will redraw the US electoral Map a lovely shade of blue this November.


**Stop the Drama.. Vote Obama**
by Winterblink on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

Then why is McCain beating him in MA of all places and most other states in polls now?  One of the most Dem states in the union like MA that even McGovern won in 1972!


by mcctx on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

if you look at the graph jerome so kindly supplies, you'll see that you are talking out of your ass. and the mass poll is an outlier. every other poll i've seen has him winning comfortably.


by jbill on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:44:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

Your in la la land!  Dream on!


by mcctx on Wed May 07, 2008 at 09:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

Pleasae stop using today's polls as to what will happen in Nov.  Yes, the swing states do count for something...but this time the electoral map could change.  You cannot possibly predict with such certainty what will happen between aug and nov.
This post is really interesting...especially when past polls show that texas darlin is not giving the facts - Hillary was expected to win Indiana and Obama to win North Carolina.  Why you are spinning this is beyond me!  In PA the guy came within 9.2 points....slicing that from 20+.  Hillary was considered the second coming after PA - she 'slaughtered' Obama, huge victory....when NO ONE thought he would overtake her there.
The NY Times says today that even with MI and FL (and giving projected vote totals for remaining primaries), Obama is still ahead in pop vote as well as pledged delegates....is this true does anyone know?
by mariannie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

this is only wishful, utopian thinking.  Get a grip on reality.  Obama will not win states like NC in the fall, no matter how much you wish it to be true.


by slynch on Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

This looks like fun, lets play a game.  You name a state where Hillary closed the deal, then I name a state where Obama has.  Back and forth and I bet you  run out of states long before I do.  Also nice call on Texas, though I don't know if I'd count a -5 delegate shift is a win.  FL doesn't count either, wanna name more big states?  


by matchles on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 2)

A deal isn't closing, it's closed, That's like the check is in the mail. in the haste to bully Hilary off the court the press has called her demise more than once, but this really is the question. We do need a candidate who has the best chance to win against McCain, and the race isn't over. Chill out whoever you are, there is more to come.  


by anna shane on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speaking of (2.00 / 0)

the check is in the mail...
why does Hillary need to keep loaning her own campaign money?
by alb on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 5)

You got that right, KV.  Thanks.


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you're right! Obama sucks as a candidate (2.00 / 2)

What's it say that he's beating HRC in a race where she started with advantages in fundraising, name recognition, national networking and superdelegate support?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

And Hillary has no clue how to make one in the first place.


by MNPundit on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:04:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 12)

If the media did it's job maybe they'd talk about the fact that 1 in 8 Clinton voters in Indiana and 1 in 6 Clinton voters in North Carolina said they would vote for McCain if Clinton won the nomination. This compares to 1 in 22 Obama Indiana voters and 1 in 32 Obama North Carolina voters who say they will vote for McCain if Obama wins the nomination. If you subtract these votes clearly cast just to meddle in the process from the total Obama would have gone from -2 in Indiana to +3 and from +15 in NC to +22.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 8)

More screwy Obama math. 2.5 MILLION voters in Florida and Michigan don't count, either. In your imaginery world, why not just press your delete key and erase McCain? LOL


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

Yes I know, facts are hard for you to deal with. What does Florida and Michigan have to do with voters who abused the right to vote that so many have died for in order to cause mischief? Are you saying all the voters in those states cast votes for false pretenses too?


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 6)

Im a voter in Florida and we didn't abuse anything. It was out of our hands, and disenfranchising us because a few state legislators and Dean are primes examples of a failure of leadership just isn't fair.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:46:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 5)

His point was that the Florida/Michigan voters DIDN'T abuse the right to vote; the Limbaugh-following, mischief-making republicans did. He's saying you can't compare the two.

(Although it's technically not abuse if they're allowed to do it, but you get the point.)


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:49:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 2)

Johnny has it right, I most certainly did not mean that I believe that Michigan and Florida cast their votes to cause mischief and was just trying to point out the inanity of KnowVox's response to my comment.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

blame your states leadership for the stupidity of moving up the date.

i lived in FL for 4 years (undergrad) so I still have many friends whom live there. So I'm a bit empathetic to the whole ordeal. However, even the few people I know who voted for Hillary in FL acknowledge the fact that the election was neither fair nor do the grounds for the contest to be ligit  exist.

in fact, I'm willing to bet that if your state's leadership did NOT move up the date, Hillary would have walked away with a smaller percentage win but a higher vote margin of victory. Then again, it's not about the popular vote is it?


by alex100 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:23:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You could well be speaking of (2.00 / 2)

Marcos Moulitas when he encouraged Democrats to "cause mischief" in Michigan for the Republicans by voting for Romney. It's ok to "...abuse the right to vote that so many have died for," if you're a Democrat?


I proudly support Hillary Clinton for President of the United States!
by Rumarhazzit on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You could well be speaking of (none / 0)

When have I ever said that mischief voting is ever okay? Why don't you address the actual comment instead of throwing up strawman arguments that have nothing to do with what is being discussed.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was just asking a question... (2.00 / 1)


I proudly support Hillary Clinton for President of the United States!
by Rumarhazzit on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who says it was mischief? (none / 0)

All the Dem candidates agreed with the DNC that Michigan votes would not count in the primary.
I voted for Ron Paul since, because my vote would not count toward my favored candidate, I could at least give Paul a hug for his sincerity and anti-war stance.
by barnowl on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 2)

More blatant Knowvox innumeracy. 55 per cent of MI voters don't count. And all the voters who stayed at home in MI and FLA, because they were told by ALL candidates that the primaries wouldn't be counted, are also disenfranchised by that old logic.

It didn't work. The whole MI/FLA twisting, the elitism charge, the appeal to a mythic gun toting shot drinking white working class. None of these tactics worked. Get with the programme. At least come up with some new spurious mendacious argument, and not the easily demolished old ones.


Unable to rec or rate
by duende on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:30:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 7)

The diarist asked why Obama didn't win, and the post you are mocking answered the question - Operation Chaos made the difference.  Your response borders on the Chewbacca defense - ie non responsive.


by interestedbystander on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HIllary used to say they wouldn't count too (2.00 / 1)

until she needed them.


"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything." -- Hillary Clinton on the Michigan primary.
by kellogg on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Making that claim is hypocritical for your side (2.00 / 4)

Because it is your candidate who has benefitted most from Republican crossovers in this campaign.  Clinton's margins among Republicans have come only in more recent contests and are smaller than the ones received by Obama earlier in the campaign.

And please don't give me the self-serving line that his GOP votes were honest ones while all of hers came from mischief makers.  The truth is most likely than each candidate has both types voting for them.


by lombard on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not a claim (2.00 / 3)

It's not a claim, it's data right there plain as day in the exit polls. From the NC exit polls, if the only two candidates on the November ballot were John McCain and Hillary Clinton 14% of respondents said they would vote for John McCain. Of that 14%, 48% were people who indicated they voted for Hillary Clinton in the primary.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know I am wasting my breath, but will anyway (1.16 / 6)

You appear to only be interested in data that supports your position.  Go back over exit polls available on CNN throughout the primary.  You will see that my statement above is essentially correct.  I have admitted that she received more Republican support in IN and NC (although, in at least Indiana, not that much more) but this primary contest is not limited to Indiana.

Plenty of people of Republicans who voted for Obama throughout this primary would have also responded that they would vote for McCain in the Fall if asked on their particular exit poll but the polls don't always have the exact same set of questions.  

Now, please stop being such a pointlessly argumentative Obamabot.  Just acknowledge that each candidate benefitted from voters of different perspectives at different times, Obama got more of those votes, and move on.


by lombard on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:14:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know I am wasting my breath, but will anyway (2.00 / 2)

Why don't you stop being such a troll going around insulting people pointlessly over who they support and take another look at what I'm saying.

This has nothing to do with party affiliation. This has everything to do with people who vote for Clinton in the primary who say they will not vote for her in the general. Yes there are indeed people who say the same thing about Obama but it is a much much much smaller proportion of his support.

Again according to exit polls in NC 14% of respondents say they will vote for McCain over Clinton in a general election. Of that 14% almost half are people who supported Clinton in the primary. Also in NC 18% of respondents say they will vote for McCain over Obama in a general election. Of that 18% only 10% are Obama supporters in the Primary.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For the 3rd time! (none / 0)

This contest was far bigger than IN and NC.  Those tendecies differed throughout the primary season but you are extrapolating to the entire contest based on ONE NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


by lombard on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the 3rd time! (2.00 / 1)

When have I ever extrapolated this point to the entire contest? TexasDarlin asked why Obama lost Indiana and I answered that. To your point I did look at exit polls in past elections and this particular question was not asked so it's not possible to determine how many chaos voters there were in previous elections.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My comments are directed to my exchange (2.00 / 1)

with you, not with TexasDarlin's.  I have no idea about the subject of your argument with her.

And you are absolutely correct. There is no way to determine the exact motivations of Obama's earlier heavy GOP support, so you shouldn't try to make the claim that Clinton's wins in this contest (not just in IN and NC) have been aided and abetted by GOP mischief makers while not entertaining the same possibility that those people have helped Obama, too.

I'm going to make this very easy. Regardless of whether GOP voters were motivated by Rush or some other reason to vote in the Democratic primary, those same voters are unlikely to vote for either Democrat in the GE because around 90% of Republican voters typically vote for Republicans
in the GE.

I think it is quite likely that Obama benefitted earlier in the campaign from Republicans who honestly thought he might be a good choice and from Republicans who just wanted to derail Clinton.  After all of the Wright press, some of those Republicans that would have voted against Clinton or for Obama in the past, changed their minds and saw Obama as the more offensive candidate (relatively speaking) of the two.


by lombard on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:15:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My comments are directed to my exchange (none / 0)

When have I claimed any such thing about other Clinton wins? I have made the claim only about Indiana and North Carolina because there is available evidence that supports the claim. A large portion of her vote in these two contests came from voters who will not support her in a general election, this is clear from the number of people who said they voted for her in the primary and would not vote for her in a general election. The evidence is right there in black and white. Why is it somehow off limits for me to point out what is plainly there for all to see?


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 5)

I don't follow...you're assuming that people who voted for Clinton (but won't consider Obama) are disingenuous Clinton supporters?  That is really far fetched.  A new one...


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 5)

I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying if you look at the exit polls a large number of Clinton voters say that if Clinton wins the nomination they will vote for McCain. Voting for a candidate you have no intention of supporting in the general election is the very definition of a disingenuous supporter.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:56:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 1)

actually, it isn't.  One could prefer the candidates in this order: McCain, Clinton, Obama.  In the primary, the person votes for Clinton, because she's preferred over Obama.  In the general, the person votes for McCain.  This isn't disingenuous at all.


by slynch on Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you have no intention to vote... (none / 0)

in the general election for the person person you supported in the primary, you are the definition of a disingenuous voter.  There is a reason many states have laws which prohibit crossover primary voting if the person intends to vote for the other party in November.  There are many states where you have to sign a legally-binding pledge.  No, that is indeed disingenuous.


In Honor of Caro: Called a sexist, self-hating Jew, Kool-aid drinking automaton. Why can't the healing begin? I don't blame you for it.
by nklein on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:12:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you have no intention to vote... (none / 0)

First, try dictionary.com.  This is not disingenuous voting.  Second, I made no assumption about crossover voting.  Many people are registered in one party and vote in the primary for their preferred candidate (in their party), but they may prefer the person from the other party in the general.  This is not disingenuous.  You're ascribing a negative motive when there isn't necessarily one.


by slynch on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then why is there a law against it... (none / 0)

in several states.


In Honor of Caro: Called a sexist, self-hating Jew, Kool-aid drinking automaton. Why can't the healing begin? I don't blame you for it.
by nklein on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then why is there a law against it... (none / 0)

there is no law against voting in the primary of the party you are registered in and then voting for the other party in the general.  Not one law in ANY state.


by slynch on Fri May 09, 2008 at 02:29:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then why is there a law against it... (none / 0)

We're not discussing Democrats who voted for a Democratic candidate in the Democratic primary, but plan on voting for the Republican even if the candidate they vote for wins.  We're talking about Republicans that are crossing over and have no intention to vote Democratic in November.  There are laws against that.


In Honor of Caro: Called a sexist, self-hating Jew, Kool-aid drinking automaton. Why can't the healing begin? I don't blame you for it.
by nklein on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then why is there a law against it... (none / 0)

No.  That is an assumption you're making, which is what I was pointing out to begin with.


by slynch on Fri May 09, 2008 at 07:32:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 2)

CNN presented a pretty compelling demographic breakdown of Indiana voting patterns which clearly showed that more than any other group, people over the age of 65 were responsible for pushing Hillary across the finish line as the winner.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 6)

And they will be a critical segment for pushing the GE winner over the finish line...


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 2)

And AAs won't?

And young people won't matter in the next several decades?

Grasping. At. Straws.


by sorrodos on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

And what about latinos who went for Clinton in all the Southwestern states from CA to TX.  In TX, Clinton won two thirds of the latino vote!
Poor Obama!  Many of those latinos will vote for McCain over Obama in a heartbeat!
by mcctx on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:24:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (none / 0)

Maybe... My guess is no. McCain has to walk a VERY fine line... The GOP pretty much alienates the Mexican-American vote with the anti-immigration talk.  Sooo he can either go with the Mexicans and piss off the Conservatives or he can go with the Conservatives and piss of the Mexicans. My guess is the latter.  He'll try to please both, but we all know what happens when you try to please everyone... [you end up pleasing no one]


by jturn17 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:49:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE? (2.00 / 0)

I admire your tenacity.

Don't give up unless it is over.  It's not over yet.  But if Clinton does not prevail, I hope you work to unify the party.

Defeating McCain is very important.  Both Obama and Clinton know that.


by TomP on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

All of the people who passionately (2.00 / 2)

support Hillary with words, deeds, and money will be there for Obama if he wins the nomination. However, as long as there is chance that she can prevail and she doesn't throw in the towel, we will be there with her until the last voter has voted, the last delegate - super or otherwise - has voted, and FL and MI have been resolved in a way that both sides can abide by. We are Democrats first, but we are passionate and steadfast when it comes to our candidate. As long as she's in it, we're in it.


I proudly support Hillary Clinton for President of the United States!
by Rumarhazzit on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As you should be. (2.00 / 1)

I was like that with Edwards.  

Keep fighting.


by TomP on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:59:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think Kerry did Edwards in (none / 0)


by internetstar on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That is not the right question. (2.00 / 1)

On one hand you have a Senator who did not have national recognition until the 2004 DNC convention, and even then not widespread recognition.

On the other you have the dominant name in the Democratic Party for the last 16 years. Who started out as the "inevitable" candidate. Who had a massive network in place. And who had more support from a former President than anyone else in Primary History.  And the President and Name she runs under had the highest approval rating of any President leaving office since WW2.  In addition to that her opponent was attacked by the Right Wing .   And a major figure on the Right Encouraged "Strategic" voting in favor of HIllary Clinton.

With all that in Hillary's favor how did Obama win 32 out of 48 contests to date?

And how does a campaign that is so far in debt justify staying in the race?

Obama is 33 Delegates away from a majority. And 169 away from the nomination.

And if the "Clinton" name did not allow her to win the Democratic Primary outright, where the Clintons are popular, how do you think it will play in the rest of the country, where Clinton is considered the third worse President behind Bush and Nixon.

And pushing a Republican Economic policy (Gas Tax) in a "Red State" how did she manage to have such a narrow margin of victory?  Which reports indicate her margin of victory was less than "strategic voters" who will be voting McCain in November.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (1.71 / 7)

expectations changed, we all expected a bigger Hillary win.

EVEN you thought she would have a bigger win, that explains it all right there.

have a nice day


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:07:14 PM EST

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 6)

Actaully, Obama expected to win Indiana, and felt it would be the "tie breaker."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/11/878455.aspx


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 1)

yes, hence that change part, Obama was expected to win, and then expectations changed.

shall we look up the predictions and see if anyone predicted C+2? heck Zogby called a Obama win and was laughed at, it was pretty much the CW Hillary was going to win by 5-10


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:18:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (1.87 / 8)

The only problem is, Obama's expectations didn't "change" until he LOST.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 3)

yeah, sure and if you say that enough, the MyDD prediction thread will disappear full of everyone calling Indiana for Hillary by 5-10, or the one at talkleft, that was calling it 5-10 I mean jeeez we all must have completely forgotten what yesterday was like. that NO one remembers the expectations that we could actually believe that yesterday Hillary wasn't expecting a 5-10 win.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 2)

Obama himself predicted an Indiana win.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 3)

He also predicted that he'd win NC by only 8 pts.  Guess he was wrong about that too.


by NewOaklandDem on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE (none / 0)

Yeah, and Clinton predicted she'd be the nominee by Super Tuesday.  Things change.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 07:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (none / 0)

And Clinton's internals had her up by 5. So what?

It's not about who was expected to win, it's about who actually won.

Clinton won the state. That is fantastic. She fought hard.

Why not focus on the win instead of suggesting that Obama should have beaten her?


by jdusek on Wed May 07, 2008 at 08:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 4)

WHY did "expectations change?"

He should have easily won Indiana will all his money and his good reputation in Chicago.

Even that fine Gary Indiana mayor couldn't put him over the top.


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 3)

All his money?

Actually, it was SUPPORTERS MONEY (unlike some people  we could mention) but that was so unfair of him, wasn't it, to raise to much money from all those supporters.

Shame on you Barack Obama for raising so much money.


Unable to rec or rate
by duende on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 4)

Seriously, what the hell does Chicago have to do with Indiana? You've obviously never spent any time in the state.

Obama used the money from 1.5 million supporters, and none of his own (unlike some elitist candidates) to secure the Democratic nomination.


by reenactor on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 1)

Look, expectations don't trump the reality in Indiana.

Indiana is a neighboring state to IL. Obama had much more money to spend than Hillary. And, most importantly, he was the candidate who SHOULD be getting a significant "rallying around the future nominee" effect.

But the voters in Indiana chose otherwise.

I think that it's pretty fair to say that among the voters who chose Hillary over Obama, there's a significant number who must be really unhappy with Obama as a potential President. (And it doesn't do Obama the slightest good as a future nominee if there may likewise be Obama voters who really don't like Hillary as a nominee.)

In a way, it may just be that this year neither candidate will have a good chance at winning the general, because the party is so split, and each side has so much come to detest the other. It's hard at this stage to see AAs coming out in great force for Hillary. And it's even harder to see the swing voting Reagan Democrats choosing a candidate like Obama, whom many of them seem to intensely dislike.

In which case, welcome to the nomination, Senator Obama. If you want to be the one who goes out and loses, I'm sure Hillary won't stand in your way for that.


by frankly0 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 2)

Just to put my first point another way: expectations don't get around the reality that if Obama LOST Indiana, it absolutely demonstrates his weakness as a candidate at this late stage of the game.

Yes, he will probably manage to limp across the finish line ahead, but significantly injured.

Problem is, this is only the qualifiers, not the finals.

That race still lies ahead.


by frankly0 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (none / 0)

I love the way you answered yourself above. It's a circular conversation with yourself, that tells us all we need to know.


Unable to rec or rate
by duende on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 2)

you're right, unfortunately.


texasdarlin.wordpress.com
by TexasDarlin on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop the Presses! Why Did Obama LOSE Indiana? (2.00 / 1)

I'll trade you a Reagan Democrat for an "elitist" socially liberal Republican anyday. I've got a whole extended family of them lining up behind Obama.


by batgirl71 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 06:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

True (2.00 / 5)

She fell below updated expectations in both states and, since her situation was so critical, she could not afford to do that.  Winning Indiana by 2 and losing NC by 14 might have been just fine for her in February but not in May.


by lombard on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"And Indiana is the tie-breaker." (2.00 / 5)

Just keep repeating the mantra...you're in your happy place, in your happy place...


by McNasty on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:08:26 PM EST

Step away from the kool-aid... (1.00 / 4)


by pinback on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:09:02 PM EST

Re: Step away from the kool-aid... (2.00 / 2)

oh....noooo! It's the kool-aid cliche!


by soyousay on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Step away from the kool-aid... (none / 0)

Do not engage this person!  This person is a rogue Cynthia McKinney supporter with an agenda.


Why do I still have ratings abilities? I feel like I'm not part of the club!!!
by SpideyDem on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]