Oh dear.

Jerome, I think you're pretty obviously attached. And there's nothing wrong with that - but you're one of the only people around still pretending that Clinton has a shot. McGovern just defected, and apparently Wes Clark realizes that it's over.

Every impartial observer, and a lot of the partial ones on Clinton's side, realizes what has happened here. That you don't is symptomatic of attachment to a candidate.

Jerome, does that MI number include NO delegates or votes for Obama?

Can anyone really take a call to seat MI, as is, seriously?

If Clinton keeps going, which she has every right to do, I really hope she runs an issues campaign.

1. Seat all Michigan and Florida delegates

2. Do not include Michigan or Florida in the first round of voting

3. New Magic Number 2208

If Clinton stays in the race I hope she turns her sights on McCain.  That would be good for the party.    If she continues to attack Obama then she is hurting herself even more than she can hurt him.  

She's going "full speed ahead" with one intention in mind, fundraising.  She knows she has no shot at the nomination, even with Florida and Michigan seated.  All this is just a show that lets her stay in the race long enough to start getting back that $10 million her campaign owes her.  This economic slowdown is really hitting regular ol' folk like the Clintons pretty hard.  $110 million dollars doesn't go as far as it used to.

Well so much for the graceful exit theory I'd addressed earlier.  

It must be nice to have extra millions of dollars laying around that you can just throw overboard in the hopes it will make you less likely to sink.

Pretty detached myself... I want this to be done and or the blogs to be full of diaries on just how much McCain really does suck...

Official - MSNBC: Former Sen. George McGovern, a Clinton supporter, is urging her to quit the race.

Reported - Wes Clark is calling on Clinton to leave the race

"but it does look like the Clinton campaign is going to keep on going and making their best argument for getting the nomination."

Which is what? McGovern is calling for her to get out. More on their way. She is every bit the great politician that her husband was, and a more capable and intelligent person. She knows what's happening and it's only a matter of time now. A victory in WV and a split with Oregon and KY will be enough to let go.

Why the long face, Jerome?  Your candidate lost, but we have a candidate who can win the White House and end 8 years of incredibly destructive Republican rule.  There is cause to celebrate.

As long as Florida and Michigan count in the delegates, then that is the magic number.

Not seating them would hand both MI and FL over to McCain as the Democrats would disenfranchise both states.

I am curious in seeing what the numbers would be like if every state had closed primaries.

Clinton still has one bullet left in her chamber with Oregon. It's a long shot but an upset there could create the same "disruption" in superdelegate psychology that they were looking for with North Carolina. The real problem they face is that it's really hard to see how they establish a moral claim on the nomination -- they needed to be able to establish a popular vote lead, and that's leaning towards implausible after last night.

The one good thing about where we are is that maybe the Obama fans will stop the apocalyptic whining and focus on actually delivering on all the hope and change they've promised us.

Jerome, given you comments to the contrary, I would be interested in your final thoughts RE the Gas Tax. I know you felt it was a loser for Obama, but do you see his newfound strength in IN to be a result of this issue in anyway?

Please answer:

How can you possibly think of not seating any Michigan Dels for Obama? If you even sit 2/3 of undecideds for him, and let the Florida vote stand Obama still wins.

My biggest problem with prolonging this race is something none of the blogs or pundits have noticed. McCain cannot stand up to a long, arduous campaign. With no pressure on him at all, he is having frequent "senior" moments, whispers in his ear, and having to explain things.

Imagine how he will be when there is pressure. He can probably take the pressure of a short, 2 month campaign, which is why we have to be able to go at him  now. I gurantee he will break down.

Is there any evidence that anyone outside of the Clinton camp find the Michigan election where Obama is given 0 delegates to be a fair result?  Can you make an argument?  Sure.  But if you aren't convincing anyone, what's the point?

The super delegates will not want to look like they are piling on and kicking Hillary while she is down. They don't want to piss off her supporters but they do want to move against McCain and prevent any more damage to the presumptive nominee.

If Hillary focuses on McCain from here on out they will be happy to hold off until after PR. You will see a steady stream going to Obama but no tidal wave. You will likely see the climbing negatives of both candidates reverse course if they are training their fire on McCain and focusing on issues. Hillary's negatives post-Wright are higher then Obamas. The kitchen sink has done more damage to her then Barack. If Obama gets hit by a meteor between now and June Hillary will be there to take up the banner.

However if the kitchen sink continues watch for a flood of supers to move to Obama including many Clinton supporters. It's Hillary's move. If she goes nasty they will shut her down, if she carries on with class they will do everything to support her and unify the party.

Well said, Jerome:

At this point, I'm personally about as detached from whomever wins as I've ever been. If Obama gets the nod, that's fine with me; but it does look like the Clinton campaign is going to keep on going and making their best argument for getting the nomination.

So am I.

The real question to me is whether there is any room in the Obama Democratic Party for progressive populists. He reaches out to right wingers, but never to the progressive populists.  My experience with many Obama supporters on Daily Kos is that no dissent is allowed.  "Clean coal" will be the mantra now.  He's running ads in Kentucky.  The environment thrown under the bus after FoE Action endorses him. A real message to environmentalists there.

I will not betray progressive beliefs for a person.  Is there a place for progressive populists in the Obama Party?  Clinton is a realist, and she will deal with the progressive populists if we have leverage. Obama, however, seems to believe his supporters.  We may need mroe leverage with Obama, for some of his supporters define a centrist as a progressive and will attack all dissent.

This is why issue activism must continue no matter whether a Democrat or Republican is in the White House.

Nice to see everyone pile on Jerome.  Thank you Jerome for being a rare voice of civility in all of this. I am not detached like Jerome, I have become a Hillary die-hard.  That may even be a literal statement at this point- DIE HARD.  I am a loyal, activist Democrat.  I donate lots of my own money (which my partner yells at me about)- and I follow politics with an almost obsessive interest.  For the life of me- I WANT to love Obama.  I really do- especially now that he is probably going to be the nominee (though I don't count Hillary out yet).  I am just not that into him (for more reasons than I have time to list in this simple comment).  I do not believe that he will be able to win the general election- for a variety of reasons.  More than all of that, I think Senator Clinton is one of the best candidates the Democratic Party has seen in a long time.  I really and truly do.  That is why I will fight this fight with her until it's REALLY over (when she says it is).  I think what last night showed everyone is that Obama wins when the demographics work for him- Clinton wins when they don't (even though he outspends her 3 to 1).  What does this say about the general election?  Let the Superdelegates decide.  I'm moving on the West Virginia.  

It is the media that wants to have a hay day over the loss in NC, knowing perfectly well that she wasn't expected to win there. Now their ranting and raving for the fourth (4) time in this campaign that she should give it a rest. Doesn't look like they are going to give the media the satisfaction, and most importantly she is going to make sure that Michigan and Florida are counted. So yes it is full speed ahead into WV, Kentucky and Oregon and lets see what  happens.

The RNC campaign ad will open with grainy footage of student riots during the '60s and shots of arrested Weather underground members. Then it will cut to Obama's statment in defense of his relationship of William Ayers that he was only 8 or 9 years old when these events took place. Next the ad will cut to the photographs of Ayers stomping on the American flag as the narrator asks, "Tell us Barak Obama how old were you when Bill Ayers, unconvicted terrorist, did this?"

It is the media that wants to have a hay day over the loss in NC, knowing perfectly well that she wasn't expected to win there. Now their ranting and raving for the fourth (4) time in this campaign that she should give it a rest. Doesn't look like they are going to give the media the satisfaction, and most importantly she is going to make sure that Michigan and Florida are counted. So yes it is full speed ahead into WV, Kentucky and Oregon and lets see what  happens.

It's over.
It's over.
It's over.

What part of that simple statement is Hillary Clinton unable to understand?
To quote Karl Marx -
"History repeats itself - the first time as tragedy, the second as farce."

I started out as an HRC supporter.

She lost me when:

She wanted me to vote for her out of fear of a 3 a.m. call.
----You should not make decisions out of fear, they are rarely well thought out. It is also a right wing tactic, vote for me or "they" will get you and your kids too! I don't vote out of fear.

No matter how tired you are, you do not misremember whether you have been shot at. I served in Iraq, you remember these things when they happen.

She puts no stock in experts when making decisions about complex issues. Sounds so Bushie.

She has aligned herself with McSame repeaatedly.

Her gas tax holiday is laughable(aligned with McSame too)

Do you actually believe her on NAFTA?

She cannot win, even with seating MI and FL, so what is the point exactly?

And she has aligned herself with Karl Rove politics.

Thanks,
Alec

I don't feel that Hillary should stay in the race. If she were a a real leader of the democratic party she would leave this nomination process graciously; and urge her supporters to embrace Barack Obama  and remember what this fight was about to begin with.

The goal: to choose a nominee who could best defeat McCain in the fall. The voters, in essence, have spoken.

For her to continue, just amplifies the notion that she is selfish and divisive. This is for the POTUS, for crying out loud..not her own egomaniacal pissing contest.

I am glad she is still going on.  When polls break down the demographics and she is clearly the registered democrats choice, she has the right to continue on.

I do believe(alas) that Obama will get creamed in the GE.  I want to WIN in the GE, not lose it.

FL and Michigan won't help.  As Chuck Todd explains:

on the delegate front, if Florida and Michigan were seated as is and Obama got the uncommitted delegates in Michigan, Clinton would net an additional 32 delegates from Florida and 18 from Michigan -- for a total net of 50. So add those numbers into the current pledged delegate count and Obama still would lead in the pledged delegate count by more than 100, approximately 110 in fact. So let's use 110 as the baseline. For Clinton to overtake him in the pledged delegate lead using THEIR math on Florida and Michigan, she'd need to win 75% of all remaining delegates. That's an impossible task.

Most importantly, knowing the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee the way we THINK we do, the likelihood of the committee NOT punishing Florida and Michigan in some way (say a cut in half of their delegates a la the Republicans) would then make this FL/MI exercise moot.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/05/07/989476.aspx

Now that's funny.

I realize this is how Hillary is spinning it, but haven't 33 or so of Michigan's uncommitted delegates already been snagged by Obama supporters, even if they are officially uncommitted?  My understanding is some of them may be "shaky" supporters, insofar as they aren't all personally vouched for by the Obama campaign, but the idea that Obama is going to get none of them is ludicrous.  

as is smacks of idiocy.

The DNC rules clearly do not allow for such a move.

50% without unpledged delegates from Florida is the best that Clinton can realistically hope for.

Michigan can be seated for the acclimation vote.

i will fault the obama camp for not settling this MI and FL thing a long time ago.  I don't know how much feet dragging they did with the revotes but they certainly should take the initiative on the compromise.  I can't imagine many ways in which Obama would lose if indeed there is a real compromise in terms of the delegates.  If he can get some of the delegates from both states, just take it and put the issue to rest.  

I hate that word being bandied about and I don't want Republicans to campaign on it either

The mayor of Gary should be ashamed of himself for what he tried to pull last night. Does not bode well for unity.

that Obama should get zero out of MI? If so, they lost any ability to pretend that they're concerned with the "will of the voter".

Clinton is going forward with this.  I really doubt Obama can pull ahead in the end if Florida and Michigan are not seated - as they should be.

" a deeply flawed and illegitimate metric for deciding the nominee". Read more in their letter to the superdelegates today.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community /post/samgrahamfelsen/gGCNJj

It is still their apprehension that after Puerto Rico they might wake up to find themselves behind in the popular vote but may be little bit ahead in delegate count. Most of us who remembers 2000 when Al Gore won the popular vote and GWB won the electoral vote math (with FL debacle). This election may still have few more surprises in its bizarre twists and turns, ups and downs.. So HRC supporters, it's too early to call it a day and throw in the towel..As President Clinton says..."till the last dog dies..."

I've heard from a ton of People the Clark should be Obama's VP pick.  Does anybody know if Obama and Clark even know each other.  It is smart.  Clark is an outspoken Clinton backer...so it helps unify the party.  He is a D.C. outsider, so it does not undercut Obama's change message.  He opposed the war.  And, he undercuts McCain biggest strength.

He also could make Arkansas and Oklahoma close... and if Rasmussen's Texas numbers are accurate, Texas as well.

At this point, I'm personally about as detached from whomever wins as I've ever been. If Obama gets the nod, that's fine with me; but it does look like the Clinton campaign is going to keep on going and making their best argument for getting the nomination.

It's over. Everyone will come around to this fact soon. There will be a "superdelegate avalanche" this week. FL/MI will get seated 50/50 or something to that effect, but that won't give Hillary the nomination. It's too little, too late for her...

with an engine room submerged in debt.

A giant hug to all the Clinton supporters out there. I have been there , as we all have, with tough days. We are family in a greater cause of bring social and economic justice to this country.

Has anybody noticed Hillary's win in indiana was predicated on the Rush Limbaugh's campaign incouraging rethuglicans to vote for her. This is absolutely HUMILATING! A Democrat who had to rely on an extreme wingnut to squeak out a win in a DEMOCRATIC primary. As a Dem I don't appreciate Rush Bimbo's interference but I also think we should realize that were it not for his meddling Obama would actually won Indiana.

We all need to come together after this "Spirited" contest ends. Together we can "Crash the RETHUGLICAN Strangle hold on our country and get our Democracy back!

In part it is about the money.

If the donors keep on giving she will carry on fighting - even if the money is only enough to pay off debts instead of paying for new campaign advertising etc.

can narrow significantly with KY, WV, and PR.

She is a pragmatist.
Right now she is exploring the options if, as she realizes is likely if not yet certain, she won't win.

What does she want from Barack?

Does she want a position in his administration?

Does she want a major say in picking the Veep?
Would she want to be Veep? (Look if Kennedy and Johnson could get together with Bobby truly hating LBJ and vice versa anything can happen! Hillary and Barack would personally get along better than those guys!)

Does she (and does he) genuinely want a healing between them?

Would she prefer to be Governor and opt out of Washington?

She'll go through Oregon, but all of this is being discussed.

MP

The gas tax holiday issue was Clinton, and Obama, both, in demo mode as president.

Clinton chose a populist, conservative approach. Obama stuck to his guns.

In the end, the analysis that predicated Obama being hurt by his position was wrong.  He stayed in touch with the base.

The people who have been chain-recommending diaries at myDD, and also those who have banished certain front page authors for supporting Barack Obama in this viewpoint were simply aligned against the fundamental views of their own party.

As measured by the electorate.

Full speed ahead wastes a lot of gas.

More than you can get back , by being friendly with republican districts - that in fact - Bill Clinton actually tried to campaign last week .
And more than you can get back by cutting infrastructure and services and the drive to wean us from middle east oil.

I think it would be a nice gesture to re-instate front page privilege to those authors who were popular here, who have been banished from the front page by simply posting their thoughts on the subject.

Esp. given the fact that , in reading the banned posts from myDD during that timeframe, that criticism, if taken to light - would have aided the clintons.

MyDD is not a shill site for candidates. It is a place for objective analysis. It would be nice to return to that state.

I strongly suspect that there have been other conference calls doing the chain-recommendation on this site - and general shill posting.

But having said that. In the end, the issue of Gas Tax holiday became the final nail in the coffin for the Clinton campaign. She showed her colors as someone who would do anything, even compromise to the GOP - to get elected.

She did that with the issue of War in Iraq.
She would do that as president.

Makes for a good vice president. But not a good president. Qualification number one: Be someone that inspires, leads, and follows a strong path to reform.

She might have been technically qualified, but she was definitely the wrong person to be given the power and responsibility of a post-bush presidency.

I would like for everyone who backed clinton to be watchdog to Obama. Clinton had a lot of good ideas, we shouldn't lose them.

And maybe who knows - myDD can get back into shape again?

My Damned Denial?

Enjoyed your sane posts in this insanity the dems call an election.

What a freaking mess.

Anyhoo, Americans did not choose the fighter with solutions so now it is Obama who will have to come up with the solutions for increasing gas prices. Then he will need to address how exactly is he going to change the gop blocking everything the dems try to do.

How excatly is he going to save this country?

All I hear is words and see no actions.

Good luck with that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsYnegoV 28

She's just gonna get as many votes and delegates as possible and then she will try and cut a deal for a spot in the cabinet or on the Supreme Court.  But she will bow out gracefully then give him a warm endorsement in Denver. she's not the monster she's been portrayed as by many of you.

And I would keep the gloating and grave-dancing to a minimum, if you expect any of us to back your guy (and I'm not sold yet) you can start by being respectful to our heartbroken 48% of the party.

Clinton's intentions will be made clear this week.  If she avoids Wright, bitter, etc and attacks McCain then the campaign is over... that will be a sign of conceding.  If she attacks obama just as hard, then she will fight to the floor.  Either way, I think she stays in the next 6 races even if just to boost her VP argument.

Clinton's intentions will be made clear this week.  If she avoids Wright, bitter, etc and attacks McCain then the campaign is over... that will be a sign of conceding.  If she attacks obama just as hard, then she will fight to the floor.  Either way, I think she stays in the next 6 races even if just to boost her VP argument.

i'm not sure what "I'm as detached from whomever wins as I've ever been." means.

obviously it somehow implies you've accepted the outcome of this primary but the framing is as questionable as your posts have been ever since Wisconsin.

i'm still puzzled at how you've gone from a very good writer to one that got sucked into the Hillary PR ploy. I would have expected your writing to be more poignant through Clinton's March tailspin and prop her up in a way that was dignified and honest. Didn't happen.

In my opinion, watching you morph wasn't a bad thing per se. It reaffirms my belief that people have the ability to change in unexpected ways.

anyhow...best to you moving forward.