He Hasn't Won Yet

I was asked the other night: "Why is Hillary still in this thing?" I responded, "Has Barack won the nomination? Because if he has, why is he still campaigning?" Seriously, if the nomination is so settled as many Obama supporters like to claim, he's free to just go home to Chicago. No one's stopping him. Yet it's Hillary Clinton who is the object of the ire of Obama supporters who seem to honestly believe that Hillary Clinton's winning the nomination would be tantamount to her robbing him of something he hasn't won yet. What a joke.

Democratic strategist Ari Melbers's appearance on MSNBC Sunday during an hour long Obama love-fest hosted by David Schuster was particularly dishonest about the situation:

"Senator Clinton is highly unlikely to make up the elected delegate metric, which is the key thing here, that's the count from the people who've actually voted in these states...Even if she does her best, she's going to be down in the Democratic count and there's really no way she can legitimately win the nomination at this point."

The central problem with this statement is the premise that superdelegates handing someone the nomination is inherently illegitimate when in truth, both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will need superdelegates to win the nomination. As you can see from DemConWatch's handy chart, there simply aren't enough pledged delegates left to put either of them over the top.

Now, of course, in the mind of Melber and all proponents of the Obama inevitability campaign, the pledged delegate count is king, which means that if superdelegates hand it to Obama it's OK, but if they hand it to Clinton it's not. How convenient. The problem with this formulation though is that there's absolutely no basis or precedent for the presumption that the superdelegates are bound to the pledged delegate leader. As Howard Dean himself has said of the superdelegates:

Their role is to exercise their best judgment in the interests of the nation and of the Democratic Party. I am confident that they will carry out that duty responsibly and in accordance with the highest values of our democracy and our Party.

Josh Marshall has more on the history of superdelegates that splashes a bucket of cold water on the notion that superdelegates must take their cue from the pledged delegate count. In fact, like it or not, they were created with the express purpose of keeping this count in check.

Obama supporters say that the superdelegates as a group should not overturn the verdict of the primary and caucus election process while Clinton supporters say that it's precisely the point of the super delegates to make their own considered judgment about who the party's nominee should be regardless of the finally tally of pledged delegates. The second accurately portrays why the superdelegates were created.

In fact, even this description puts too gentle a gloss on it.

But quite to the contrary, now we have phase two of the Obama inevitability campaign wherein the very people who've been fear-mongering about superdelegates "overturning the will of the people" are now concern trolling about the negative consequences for the party if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination via superdelegate. How is that for a self-fulfilling prophecy, one borne of a dishonest and divisive meme spread by Obama supporters intended to annoint Obama as the nominee before he's even earned it. So much for an honest debate, eh? And what was that about unity? The fact is, people only believe Hillary winning the nomination is "stealing" because the very Obama supporters who are now wringing their hands about what it would mean for the party if Obama lost told them so.

But the reason this isn't as cut and dried as many Obama supporters like to claim is because of the pesky matter of Florida and Michigan. Really, how can anyone talk about Obama's pledged delegate lead as reflective of voter intent with a straight face without taking into account the intent of millions of voters in two huge states that just happen to be...wait for it...Clinton strongholds? Now people are correct, of course, to say that the rules going in were that those two states wouldn't count toward the nomination, but to pretend that a pledged delegate count that will include Guam and Puerto Rico but not Michigan and Florida is somehow reflective of the "will of the voters" is disingenuous at best. By any strict interpretation of the phrase, Hillary Clinton is the only one really advocating for the will of the voters to be taken into account, while the Obama campaign and its Obama inevitability campaigners around the country would prefer to conveniently ignore those millions of votes that were cast. In fact, if the Obama inevitability campaign had its way, Hillary would have dropped out before voters in Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Indiana plus all states in between and beyond had voted. In other words, people voting is merely an inconvenience to them because it just delays an inevitable Obama nomination. The inconvenient truth is that the lead that Obama currently holds in both pledged delegates and popular vote depends entirely on not counting millions of votes cast and in the absence of a remedy for Michigan and Florida, anyone truly advocating for superdelegates to reflect the "will of the people" should be demanding that they take the true intent of voters in all 50 states and territories into account when deciding whom to support.



Display:


Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 4)

That's all fine and dandy. But the superdelegates have been exercising their judgment in Obama's favor. So I hope that is okay with folks as well.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:25:08 AM EST

IF - THEN (2.00 / 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9qd-P2bI iY
Countdown:
CLINTON'S RULES - IF I DIDN'T WIN IT DOES NOT COUNT
by dearreader on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's hilarious. (none / 0)

She's definitely courting a very specific demographic.


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:58:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And it is worth noting (2.00 / 6)

that Obama beats Clitnon in the last poll of Michigan, something conveniently omitted here.

Michigan is not a Clinton stronghold.


by fladem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:30:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right and don't forget florida (2.00 / 2)

I lament that Todd, in order to try to find a way to write a post that somehow lauded a candidate - ended up trying to point out that

wherein the very people who've been fear-mongering about superdelegates "overturning the will of the people" are now concern trolling about the negative consequences for the party if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination via superdelegate

How absurd. The general definition of screwing up the votes cast by the people in favor of some strange party proceduer that would elect the candidate that didn't win the majority of votes -- is that they will be nominated by superdelegates.  

And that my friends is simply not going to happen. No concern trolling from this Obama fan, here. The democratic party is not going to suffer being branded as a party of elites. Not after the interests that landed Bush into the white house are done being branded as Bush Republicans - a label that Jerome rightly put as "a scarlet letter that they will have to wear for a decade"

It is my fervent hope that the end of the Clinton campaign, is a turn for the better for the quality of writing at myDD


by Trey Rentz on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:12:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Five or six debates every two days.. (2.00 / 1)

we could decide this thing in two weeks.


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:04:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Five or six debates every two days.. (none / 0)

yeah, boring us to death would certainly give the election to john mccain...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And it is worth noting (2.00 / 2)

Obama had the opportunity to prove that Michigan supported him over Hillary. All he had to do was get behind the revote in Michigan. He was doing well in the polls there when he blocked the efforts to have a do over.


by MOBlue on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:14:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And yet (none / 0)

now, they support him in healthy margins over Hillary anyway.  Maybe they're good at spotting a pander.  I wonder how Michiganders fell about the gas holiday?


by semiquaver on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:22:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not worth noting because not true (2.00 / 2)

Obama did not block a revote in Michigan. The state legislature did. Obama did object to several of the plans put forth by the Clinton team including an election privately financed by James Carville and a few rich friends. The concept of a revote was never a problem.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not worth noting because not true (none / 0)

Right....

Obama didn't block the revote, it was only his supporters in the state legislature that did. He didn't have a problem with the revote, he just kept coming up with legal challenges to every plan that was offered.

Also, the "privately financed" election was to be funded half by Clinton and half by Obama. Obama didn't want to do that either.

Why can't Obama people ever simply tell the truth about the issue? Why do they feel the need to misrepresent it? Is it that the truth looks too bad?


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

For the millionth time. (2.00 / 1)

He didn't block anything.  That is the just the spin from Camp Clinton.

A primary revote was never going to happen in MI.  There was wide opposition to it in both legislative chambers.  The Republican Senate Majority leader came out against it.  Blaming Obama for the lack of a revote makes about as much sense as blaming Hillary for it.  After all, she did waste a lot of time trying to pretend that MI counted as is, and no revote was necessary.

Fact is though, she doesn't really deserve any blame either, because the primary revote was never going to happen!


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:28:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the millionth time. (none / 0)

Of course he blocked it.

Oh wait, no that's right.

Obama never blocked it, his campaign did.


by dembluestates on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:06:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the millionth time. (none / 0)

So Obama's campaign has control over MI Senate Republicans.  Good to know.  If he has that kind of power over the Republicans, I really want him to win now.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not from what my friends there say, no (none / 0)

Obama for President!


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 4)

Obama supporters say that the superdelegates as a group should not overturn the verdict of the primary and caucus election process while Clinton supporters say that it's precisely the point of the super delegates to make their own considered judgment about who the party's nominee should be regardless of the finally tally of pledged delegates. The second accurately portrays why the superdelegates were created.

That's a bunch of cr*p.  According to the DNC, the superdelegates were created so that elected officials and party leaders wouldn't have to run against ordinary people for delegate positions period.  Denying the clear will of Democratic voters would destroy the party, and the superdelegates know it.


Election fraud is treason, nothing less.
by NM Ward Chair on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:26:21 AM EST

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 3)

Todd is ridiculously right on this.  Sorry, Ward Chair, but the DNC rules actually nowhere state that superdelegates are bound to consider pledged delegates above all other concerns to make their decision.  The point, by the way, was that there is NO "clear will of the Democratic voters" when you exclude Florida and Michigan from the popular vote and pledged delegate count.  That's the will of the Obama loyalists who know that Clinton did receive more votes in both of those states, and would likely win both if a re-do were held tomorrow.  And there is NO "destroying the party" unless you yourself allow it to happen through such an attitude.


by MMR2 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:36:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 2)

Funny, most polls show Obama doing better in Michigan. But I don't care about polls and I don't worry about unsanctioned and unfair elections.

Just like I don't take third-world country elections validating dictators seriously, I don't take unsanctioned contests in which a single serious candidate receives a bare majority while nearly losing to the "Anybody but her" category, serious.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (1.66 / 3)

I'll refresh your memory: Hillary not only beat "uncommitted" 55 to 40, but the Barack Obama campaign vigorously campaigned FOR the "uncommitted" option with the obvious implication being that Obama supporters can indeed vote against Hillary Clinton.  The state primary still occurred, fair and square.

The priority, though, is Florida.  


by MMR2 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:42:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 2)

Unsanctioned and unfair elections don't count.

Sorry.

Move on.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 2)

Actually 3rd world dictators use petty rules to make sure votes that aren't for them don't count.

While democracy tries to count every one.

Guess which of the two happend to florida?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

The progressive movement as distinct  from the traditional liberal movement is scary.


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You concerned about us, honey? (none / 0)

Who got caught with his pants down with money in his fridge? Classic liberal from LA, last I checked.

Who got caught shipping voters from other states? Classic liberal (different sense) from CT, last I checked.

Who got caught supporting a non-Democratic candidate for Senator? Two assholes, one of them from NY and the other from IL.

I hope I don't need to name no names.

Raisin' Hell, and taking names!

We will be watching you!

Accountability first!


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 4)

As a general rule of thumb:  

Elections that would not be considered legitimate by the UN in a third world country (e.g., an election with only one candidate on the ballot) shouldn't be considered legitimate in the United States of America.


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:46:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

And no, Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich don't count.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

Ha!

Okay, so I should have said something like "elections where legitimate candidates are left off the ballot"


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

"elections where legitimate candidates are left off the ballot"

True that would make those elections unfair by UN standards

Except that here the candidate in question removed his own name on a regional ballot at his own inicitive . Making him personally responsible, and not a victim of manipulation.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 3)

What about elections where the candidates are not allowed to campaign?

What about elections where the deciding body ruled them invalid in advance, and then decided to count them as it'd be the only way possible to put the second candidate over the edge?

What about elections where the even the candidate that remained on the ballot argued that they don't count for anything, and that her remaining on the ballot is purely symbolic, only to change her mind afterwards?

The Clinton campaign has made as much a mockery of democracy as Bush has made of the constitution. There's no nation in the world no matter how third-worldy whose populace would accept Michigan's primary as valid.

But I guess 8 years of Bush have taught you all to disregard fundamental democratic principles. You've learned all the wrong lessons.


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

The Clinton campaign has made as much a mockery of democracy as Bush has made of the constitution.

You might have a point, except the Democratic primary process already is a mockery of democracy.  I mean come on, superdelegates?  Delegates allotted based not on popular vote, but previous voting patterns?  The whole process is a mess.

Don't get me wrong, those are the rules that everyone agreed to before the voting started so that's not to say they're unfair.  The Clinton campaign may be trying to change the rules in her favor. But she's not really making a mockery of Democracy when the whole process is a clusterfuck to begin with.

We need some serious reform for next time around.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:39:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

granted. the rules are a little, um, weird - and oftentimes such weirdness is only discovered when there's a close enough election to matter.

that said, i should note that, IMHO, the obama team looked at the rules as they were and created a game plan that has led them to the cusp of victory. clinton too knew the rules going in; her supporters can kvetch all they want, but they both knew the rules, and one candidate played the game as is better than the other, so now the other wants to change the rules.


by jbill on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:47:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Is there any rule which can prove what you said is true?

I thought we were following DNC rules (not self created fantasies).


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:52:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (1.50 / 2)

Pretty sure Mugabe taking his name off the ballot will not insure that he can rule the election invalid..

So your UN analogy doesn't stand up.

Basically Obama is trying to destroy democracy for Michigan for his own personal gain.

The more I think about him and what his stand has been vis a vie Michigan the more I think I might vote against an Obama/Hillary ticket.


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:08:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

Clinton saying that she keeps her name on the ballot because the Michigan primary won't count, does that mean anything for you?

Clinton supporters become more and more hypocritical with every passing day.


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Do you believe in Hillary's power to destroy democracy?

I don't believe ANYONE in the DNC has the right to destroy democracy.

What is it with so many "progressives" thinking its progressive to give away democracy?????


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obma and Edwards chose not to (none / 0)

run in MI.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Vigorously, huh. Source?


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Wow.  She beat "not her" by 15 points. That's one hell of a mandate.

How about that current Michigan polling?

Why didn't she complain about FL and MI before she "won" them? Crass opportunism.


by reenactor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

She did complain repeatedly before the elections. She said it was stupid and would hurt the party.

Why is it that Obama supporters always feel the need to misrepresent the issues?


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Wow.

http://www.slate.com/id/2188985/
http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffa irs/index.php/2008/01/29/kerry-hits-hill ary-for-florida-flip-flop/

Plenty more out there.  BTW, good try at a generalization there.  I'll be a good guy by not saying anything about Clinton supporters picking and choosing whichever Clinton position they like at the time.


by reenactor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Here is Hillary herself, not an Obama supporter on an Obama conference call slamming Hillary.

"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Clinton said Thursday during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio's call-in program, "The Exchange." "But I just personally did not want to set up a situation where the Republicans are going to be campaigning between now and whenever, and then after the nomination, we have to go in and repair the damage to be ready to win Michigan in 2008."

"I did not believe it was fair to just say, 'Goodbye Michigan' and not take into account the fact we're going to have to win Michigan if we're going to be in the White House in January 2009," she said.

"If you look at the some of the states we have to win, the margins have been narrow. And it wasn't, in my view, meaningful, but I'm not going to say there's an absolute, total ignoring of the people in all these other states that won't come back to haunt us if we're not careful about it."

Why is it that Obama supporters always feel the need to misrepresent the issues?


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:48:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)


"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything."

Later, Clinton clarified her position by saying  this election would in fact count if a.) she won and b.) she needed those votes to have any chance at the nomination.

Or something.

This is a silly argument, and it amazes me that otherwise intelligent human beings are taking it seriously.


by jbill on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

Hmmm... Where exactly are you saying Clinton said the election would only count if she won? Do you have a link?

Why is it that Obama supporters always need to misrepresent the issues?


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Dates? That's all you need to look up.


by reenactor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

What's the point of this post?

If you are asking for the dates of the quotes, I would suggest start by clicking on the link provided and looking at it.


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

The point of this post is that she says these things now, but she said different things earlier.  That's what dates will show you.  If you're interested.  Which you don't seem to be.


by reenactor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Did you go and look at the link? It's from October of last year. Were you the least bit interested in finding that out? Did you take a seconds worth of time before falsely claiming she wasn't saying these things before the vote?

Why, why, why do Obama supporters feel the need to misrepresent the issues?


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Oh, you mean this quote? Because the stuff you had quoted was different.  Here's from the link you sent me, in October, 2007:

"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything,"

You're awesome.  Thank you for being awesome. In October, Clinton thought MI shouldn't count.


by reenactor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (1.00 / 3)

TR'd for being an unsubstantiated attack. There were certainly Obama supporters campaigning for uncommitted (along with supporters of the other candidates). But I've seen no evidence that the Obama campaign was directly involved in any of that, and you've provided no proof.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

TR'd for TR abuse.  Poorly sourced data ('unsubstantiated')  is not in the guidelines as something it's acceptable to TR for.  And a respectful argument is not an attack, no matter how much you disagree with it;  the whole point of this site is to discuss politics (i.e. argue).

User moderation on any site is a responsibility.  It's not to be used for quieting people you disagree with, or boosting those you do.  If that were the case it would be utterly worthless.  It's to hide troll garbage and to highlight particularly insightful posts.  I see a lot of groupthink-oriented


by semiquaver on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

hm, it cut my post off.  oh well, disregard that last bit.


by semiquaver on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (1.00 / 1)

I'd retract the TR if the statement was supported at all. Lying about a candidate to stir up discontent is the very definition of trolling. If you don't understand that you're only fooling yourself. Feel free to TR me, all it does is draw attention to the reprehensible behavior you're engaging in.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:28:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Spinning Heads (2.00 / 2)

The spin from MyDD's front-page posters is truly dispiriting to this six-year reader.  For months, the central question about the superdelegates has been whether they would vote to ratify or to overturn the results of the primaries and caucuses.  That's the central premise of the Obama campaign's argument, and it's the angle most Democratic leaders take to the question.  

Yes, of course, both Obama and Clinton will need superdelegates votes to push them over the top and secure the nomination.  But if SD's push Clinton over the top, they will in doing so overturn the results of the primary season.  They will be nominating the loser of the pledged delegate count, of the popular vote, and of (as of right now) two-thirds of the primaries and caucuses.  On the other hand, if they push Obama over the top, they will be ratifying the choice of the voters as expressed by all of these metrics.

That Todd chooses to ignore this reality is as offensive to my Democratic sensibilities as Jerome's using the Michigan vote to make a popular vote argument in favor of Clinton.

Notice how Clinton rationalizers try to twist the argument to make it seem that the Obama campaign and its supporters are trying to claim that it would be against the rules for SD's to support Clinton, the pledged delegate loser.  They want to discredit Obama's rationale.  It wouldn't be illegal; it would be disastrous.  Fortunately, it's widely recognized across the Democratic Party just how disastrous it would be, and so it won't happen.


by deminva on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 6)

I don't see how Michigan is a Clinton stronghold.  I imagine Obama would be favored to win there if they had a fair election where both names were on the ballot and both got to campaign.


by Jakra on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:26:34 AM EST

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

Yep, that is why Obama got scared of a revote and came up with excuses. Lets do a revote and we will see who wins.


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

Yup. A re-vote sponsored by Clinton supporters.

"Brought to you by Carville. Free Bites!"


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:00:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you are mistaken (2.00 / 2)

obama supported a revote in mi if all his supporters had a chance to vote.

The problem is lots of them voted gop rather than waste their vote.  and hrc's campaign won't allow double votes.

so in reality hrc is blocking the full revote, not bho.


by semiquaver on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:13:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Allow me to pull out my trusty DNC rule book... (2.00 / 1)

...And cite you some rules.

Rule 2.E., Delegate Selection Rules for the 2008 Democratic National Convention:

No person shall participate or vote in the nominating process for a Democratic presidential candidate who also participates in the nominating processes of any other party for the corresponding elections.

Now what part of Rule 2.E do you or the Obama campaign not understand?


by andrewalker08 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And that rule (2.00 / 3)

Is why no fair revote can ever exist in MI, unless you redefine the word fair.  The illegitimacy of the contest has been set in stone.  

The Obama camp is under no obligation to allow a contest where he got zero votes to be counted, and it is laughable and undemocratic to expect them to.

Neither are they obligated to consent to a contest where a high percentage of his supporters are disenfranchised.  After all, disenfranchisement is bad -- it's the issue you're complaining about re:FL&MI.  

Wait, you don't think HRC supporters are using that disenfranchisement issue as a foil they really couldn't care less about to obtain an unfair advantage for their candidate, do you?  No, that would be way too cynical.  Plus, doctors recommend that people limit their irony intake, and that there contains lethal levels.


by semiquaver on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Allow me to pull out my trusty DNC rule book.. (2.00 / 3)

I don't understand the part of the rule where the DNC is obligated to seat delegations that have been stripped by a fair vote of the appropriate committees.

You can't have it both ways. If you want to make it a rules argument, then let Michigan live by the rules. If you want to make it a political argument -- as in we can't win MI if we disenfranchise their voters -- then don't disenfranchise the people who reasonably thought they should vote on the other side because they were told their votes don't count. Rules be damned.

Hillary was afraid of a true do-over. But it doesn't matter. Obama will still come out ahead in pledged delegates even if MI and FL are counted as is.


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:53:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let me have a look at that (none / 0)

Oh, yeah...and what about this:

C. 1. a. Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state's delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.
b. A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state. Candidates may, however, campaign in such a state after the primary or caucus that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this section includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors in other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending emails or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters are invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying for campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities are covered by this section.
...

5. Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions, including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section C., against a state party and against the delegation from the state which is subject to the provisions of any of subsections (1) through (3) of this section C., including, without limitation, establishing a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances.


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you are mistaken (none / 0)

That's right.  And the Clinton supporters at MyDD came out in force to say "no one made them vote in the Republican primary.  How many votes do they want?"  Ah, selective concerns about disenfranchising voters.


by deminva on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 4)

Sure, a revote where Obama's supporters wouldn't be allowed to vote, that's your idea of "fairness".


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:19:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

The first revote plan was a standard caucus entirely compliant with DNC rules. Clinton supporters killed that and a month later tried to push a Clinton-financed primary excluding absentees and crossovers. So, who exactly was afraid of a fair contest?


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 2)

Just b/c the rules provide for superdelegates overriding the will of the electorate as expressed by the elected delegates does not mean that it is appropriate for them to do so.  I disagree with the whole concept of superdelegates.  I think this position was created by establishment politicians too afraid of the people they represent.  But no use crying over spilled milk; superdelegates exist and must be accomodated.  I disagree with your premise that just b/c superdelegates are free to choose there are no questions about the legitimacy of a nomination secured by the Democratic establishment at the expense of the Democratic electorate.  You are right that such an outcome was provided for by the creation of superdelegates, but even those who created it said that such a device should only be used in the most extreme circumstances.  Obama would have to be demonstrated to be a truly flawed candidate for a large portion of the Democratic electorate to accept this aristocratic installation.  I just don't see the evidence that Obama is such a candidate.  Thus what is the rationale for overturning the will of the electorate.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:29:52 AM EST

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

The Clinton campaign is banking heavily on the popular vote as the rationale. But it would be a valid rationale.

To be honest I don't think the popular vote will be clear cut enough in that regard to sway the superdelegates though.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:10:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 4)

Popular vote is a good method if all the contests were primaries, but they weren't.  B/c calculating the popular vote is an element of comparing apples to oranges, it is a poor metric for determining the will of the electorate.  This is why most superdelegates have rejected it as a measure and have adopted the plegded delegates as the appropriate metric.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

One could argue that super delegates should vote with their contingency.  And I suspect that would favor Hillary.  

I think the MSM is framing the argument of how super delegates should vote.  Not the democratic party.


by jelyfish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Do you mean constituency?  Actually, that would favor Barack Obama.  He's won more states and more congressional districts.  That helps him out with superdelegates.  

The problem is that the whole nature of superdelegates is that its undemocratic.  Superdelegates are desinged to potentially reject the will of the people.  So there is no frame that the media's putting on this.  The reality is that superdelegates are questionable rule.  And since I choose this party knowing the rules, I will not question this in the middle of a primary.  But I don't have to endorse it either.  That is why you see the media framing it as they do.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Lets say that after the last Primary vote is in, somehow Clinton is miraculously in the lead in the Popular vote, but still behind in Delegates. Should the SD's give their support to Clinton, the leader in Popular votes, or Obama with his Delegate lead.  


by muggle on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

What they should do is decide (for themselves) who is the best nominee to go against John McCain in November. How they decide is entirely up to them (rules, you know).

Arguing one way or the other (popular vote vs. delegate count) almost invariably leads to supporters arguing what's best for their candidate rather than what is best for the party.


by joc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:19:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 2)

Excellent analysis and a great read.

And you're exactly right: Michigan and Florida are precisely the reasons why Hillary is still in this campaign.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:31:15 AM EST

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (1.00 / 1)

No, MI and FL aren't the reason she's still in. Clinton didn't give a damn about their votes last summer when her near majority on the rules committee could have voted to strip them of their delegates. Everyone involved knows that fact, and sees exactly how duplicitous she's being here.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The idiocy of the contradictions (2.00 / 5)

inherent in this post are outstanding.

"Wow, it's obvious they violated the rules and everyone knew they wouldn't count".... but... let's just discard that entirely disqualifying metric so we can then say "Hey! This isn't the people's will".

Unfair and unsanctioned elections are held by dictators.

You know what? 15 people in this house just voted for Senator Obama. I'm in Arizona so obviously, these 15 votes have to be counted despite not being sanctioned or fair towards the candidates.

I couldn't vote in the real primary because I prefer late primaries and I was busy working. Why isn't this very serious and totally fair and perfectly acceptable election not being counted and added towards the total votes and delegate counts?

By estimates, that's all delegates for Senator Obama.

Just drop the inanity of including unsanctioned, unfair, unrealistic contests that don't represent the will of the voters as many believed their vote wouldn't count, which lead to people voting to cause havoc in the Republican election and in which many of the candidates couldn't campaign.

Those are free and fair elections?

Right.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:33:09 AM EST

The local school held vote between HRC and BHO (none / 0)

And Obama won.  Don't forget to count those votes too.  Who cares if it wasn't DNC recognized?  Those voices must be heard!


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The local school held vote between HRC and BHO (none / 0)

So, are you comparing the MI and FL primaries to a local school vote?

I got atleast 3 logical Fallacies in your post lmao.


by jelyfish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its more of a joke, but really... (none / 0)

why shouldn't we count the school votes?  As of right now, they are recognized just as much as the MI and FL votes.  That is to say, not at all.

Now I'm not suggesting that we actually count those votes at the school for the purpose of selecting a nominee.  That would be ridiculous.  No one would argue that a non-DNC sanctioned contest should count to determine the Democratic nominee, right?

Right?!


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:50:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The idiocy of the contradictions (none / 0)

It's funny how you have to go to such great lengths to try to explain away the fact that Democrats in Florida and Michigan deserve to be counted.  Why isn't your "fair and sanctioned elections" candidate supporting re-votes?


by Montague on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

our votes counted in florida!!! (none / 0)

it's your myth (that you need to perpetuate for your own argument's sake) that they didn't.

i understand your devotion to hillary, but embarrassing florida democrats is counter-productive.  you feed the republican meme in florida that a.) democrats are incompetent (look what they did to the elections in dade and palm beach county circa 2000, they say) and b.) national democrats (which is a bad word in the south) use florida as a whipping boy whenever they are threatened (according to florida republicans).

please stop embarrassing florida's democrats.  we are attempting a comeback.  don't we deserve that chance?  is hillary so important that you feel the need to alienate florida's voters and set the florida democratic party back for decades?


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: our votes counted in florida!!! (none / 0)

You don't even make sense.


by Montague on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:45:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: our votes counted in florida!!! (none / 0)

facts don't make sense?  that problem is too large to address in this forum.  i'll be simple:

florida's votes counted.  we got exactly what we expected.  i've not run into a single florida voter who didn't realize that our votes would not turn into convention delegates.  yet we had a record turnout!  that's counted.

stop embarrassing florida's democrats.  your need to use florida as a whipping boy not only feeds republican memes (unless, of course, that is your intention) and makes it far less likely florida will elect democrats.  it also makes fundraising more difficult.  if you didn't know that this is the result of your argument, now you do.  ignoring that fact only makes your embarrassing florida's democrats intentional.

at least we will know.  we aren't stupid...


"I believe he can win. If he runs a campaign anywhere like the terrific campaign he ran to get the nomination, he'll win handily." - Ed Rendell
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:06:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Stick a fork in her, she's done (2.00 / 1)

Her campaign is out of time and out of options, so even changing the rules on Fl. and Mi. won't help.


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:58:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 5)

Um...Florida trending Clinton is likely due to the demographics but Michigan a Clinton stronghold? I doubt it.

Those two state parties could've planned for party caucuses after they lost their case against the DNC in court but they didn't. Reasonable people want to know why not. Washington had a meaningless straw poll primary funded by the state, but instead used the caucuses to "count" the party vote. So what was the deal with these two states just throwing up their hands and shrugging their shoulders about what a pickle they are in?

I don't know when or how to do this but next cycle "superdelegates" should be scrapped. It's pretty clear that they will finish this thing off for Obama in all probability pretty soon, but neither side should consider them a good thing for the process. Whoever thought it was a good idea to have a big group of people to push the results to the side of one person or another in a two way race should remember that it's called the "Democratic" party. Not the bigwig party. It's nuts that the Republicans have a better system in place in regards to this.

Keep proportional voting though. If we had proportional voting in the general it would destroy two party rule and open up the system for new voices and fresh ideas. It sucks having to vote for "least worst" all the time and believe me it doesn't make anything better the way it is now.  


by wengler on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:35:13 AM EST

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 2)

Preach on, Brother wengler.

If nothing else good comes out of this primary, at least it's thrown a lot of problems with the current system into sharp relief.  I do hope that after President Obama or President Clinton is sworn in that everyone can take a deep breath and then take a serious honest look at the current nomination process.  It would be wrong to change the rules during a primary season, but it can and should be fixed during the offseason.


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:50:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

I agree with you there even though we disagree on our candidates choice:-)


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:55:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 1)

My best remedy is to scrap the Caucuses. I realise that its up to the states to decide that, but the DNC could certainly apply pressure to get each state to go with Primaries instead of Caucuses. All elections should be decided by popular vote, not in a setting where there is a chance of someone being intimidated into voting a certain way. Of course I have a problem with Delegates in primaries, and want the GE to be decided by popular vote too.


by muggle on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:17:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (2.00 / 8)

I think any reasonable person can agree that the superdelegates are free to use any criterion they like to determine where they cast their votes.  Nobody who's serious about discussing this nomination would disagree with that.  So yes, the late-deciding superdelegates could decide to vote en masse for Clinton, as well as some of those who've previously endorsed Obama switching their support.

What confuses me -- and, I think many other people outside Clinton's core supporters -- is why you think they would do such a thing.  By the superdelegate history chart at Demconwatch, it appears as though both candidates are currently bringing in superdelegates at roughly the same rate, with Obama perhaps slightly outpacing Clinton, although not by much.

The pledged delegate gap is unlikely to change much between now and the end of the primary season, which means hopes for a Clinton nomination depend on the current superdelegate dynamic changing drastically.  Absent Obama being caught with the proverbial "dead girl or live boy" I don't see how that's going to happen.

Superdelegates can choose any metric they want for determining who to vote for, so promoting various popular vote metrics, etc, is all well and good, but just because Clinton supporters push them doesn't mean anyone else is going to climb on board.  Frankly it seems likely to me that anyone who was going to be persuaded by those kinds of things would have publically announced for Clinton anyway.

The trouble with the votes from Florida and Michigan is that those elections went ahead without any campaigning by either side -- and in Michigan's case without Obama's name on the ballot.  I could see sliding Florida in -- since both candidates at least were on the ballot you can make an argument that it was "fair" in some rough sense; that would net Clinton roughly 30 delegates if counted in full.  But nobody's going to accept the nomination as legitimate if the Michigan delegation's votes for Clinton are allowed to decide the winner.

What's most likely from here on out is just a continuation of what's been happening since the end of February; contests won here and there by each candidate with very little change in Obama's pledged delegate lead, and superdelegates continuing to trickle in for both sides.  I just don't see any realistic possibility for Clinton to change the overall dynamics enough to prevent an Obama nomination.

She certainly does have the right to continue her campaign as long as she wishes.  I don't think it's the wise thing for her to do, but it's her call, not mine.
 


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:43:45 AM EST

Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (none / 0)

He bought national ads as a bundle, and they aired in Florida several times a day for almost two weeks before Florida's primary.

 He also spontaneously crossed the street to hold a press conference and did until reminded that was against 'campaigning' rules, at which time he stopped.

 They each did about 15 fundraisers each in Florida as that was considered okay and not 'campaigning' (search me why).   They also held a debate there.  People saw both of them as much as I have here in California, not having gone to a rally for either but able to read newspapers and online articles and discussions and watch them both carry on via youtube as well as daily on my more old-fashioned tube.

 So, in essence, he was the only candidate who did campaign in Florida.

 Also, he himself removed himself from the Michigan ballot, as did Edwards.  At the time they were polling lower than Hillary.  Then Obama himself asked Michigan voters to vote for "Uncommitted" -- his campaign staff repeated that, and other Democrat bigwigs advised the voters to do the same, so there WAS an anti-Hillary vote by Obama's urging (one might call that participating in the election).

 My preferred position would be to give Obama all the Uncommitted votes, even if Edwards would have gotten about 15% or so of those.  

 


http://andrys1.blogspot.com
by Andrys on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (2.00 / 1)

His national air buy was approved by both the DNC and the SC Democratic Party (the only remaining early primary after Florida). While both Clinton and Obama held fundraisers in the state, Clinton held and personally attended several in the weeks leading up to the primary--capped of with an instate victory party.

More importantly, we've seen Clinton's lead drastically narrow in every state that Obama's competed in, so implying that campaigning wouldn't matter is a lie. The fact is that he would have faired much better in a real contest, particularly in MI where he more often polls ahead of her. So, it's the height of absurdity to claim the votes should stand as cast.

It's also an affront to all the other states that followed the rules and would have their votes undermined by the ones that broke the rules. Ex post facto is written into our Constitution because it's one of our core values as a nation and a party. To allow these unsanctioned contests flies in the face of that and insults us all as Americans.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:54:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (2.00 / 2)

I'm in Iowa and I'm not at all "affronted" to allow the votes of other Americans count, nor do I feel that outcomes of other states would "undermine" my state.  The convoluted reasoning that is used to throw away millions of votes is hilarious.


by Montague on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (none / 0)

I sincerely doubt you're authorized to speak for the Iowa Democratic party. However, you certainly could have communicated your view to the party last summer before the decision was made. Being a Clinton supporter might have helped you even, since she had a near majority on the committee that voted overwhelmingly to strip the delegates.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (none / 0)

Gee, you behave as though YOU are authorized to speak for the entire Democratic Party.  Pot, kettle.

Incidentally, I was not a Clinton supporter until the day of the caucus.


by Montague on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:42:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (none / 0)

Who you supported and when doesn't really matter if you genuinely think that MI and FL should not have been sanctioned. You still could have made your views known to your party representatives. I pointed out that being a Clinton supporter could help only because her people held the greatest sway in that decision.

Finally, I don't claim to speak for the party. I am merely stating the facts of the event.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (none / 0)

So here is the question - if both Obama and Edwards had been on the ballot in Michigan, do you really think HRC would have received 55% of the vote? Or would it have been more likely down in the high 30's, low 40's, and her delegate haul diminished accordingly?


by tysonpublic on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:12:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most know Obama campaigned in Florida (none / 0)

I can't realistically estimate exactly what her result would have been. What I can say with absolute certainty is that Obama would have performed much better than zero delegates, and I expect she would have performed significantly worse.


by noop on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:38:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He Hasn't Won Yet (none / 0)

Well the problem is that Clinton is behind enough to make sure Obama will win if he keeps his campaign together and that she is close enough to over take him if he doesn't.

Personally I think Obama should allow both in at 50% right now. It whould disarm a lot of critism later in the general, remove a strong rationale for Clinton and it makes a for a good superdelegate endorsement rationale while not changing the denamic of the race at all.

And it would change me from a somewhat disgusted-with it-all supporter of Obama who backs him only because he's the only one that has a chance to legitimatly win on all metrics to a somewhat supportive supporter who has some faith restored in the direction the democratic party has taken.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this race is over (2.00 / 5)

essentially, this race has been over since the day that sen. clinton & her advisers decided to give obama every contest in february after super tuesday.

& that's the worst of it from sen. clinton's point of view:  she gave him those contests.  if she'd competed for those votes as fiercely as she's competing for indiana & north carolina, well, it would be dead even & she might even be ahead.

but no.  & that's why she lost.
s.


by synth on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:44:11 AM EST

Re: this race is over (none / 0)

Agreed if finally she loses that will be the biggest reason. But she hasnt lost it yet. So I wont say its over. Let Obama earn the nomination and show us what he is made of.


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this race is over (2.00 / 1)

If, when all of this is over, Obama is ahead in pledged delegates, would you say that he "earned" the nomination?

It seems that there is way too much shifting of the goal posts and differing views of the legitimacy of primaries versus caucuses. Of course the Superdelegates are free to choose as they see fit, but I would say having the lead in pledged delegates at the end of the contest is "earning" the nomination.

As for Florida and Michigan - I'd love to see them have a re-vote, but that is highly unlikely because both states and the DNC refuse to pay for it. And on this point the DNC is right - they broke the rules and held a primary knowing their delegates weren't going to be seated. If the state legislatures respect the rights of their citizens they would admit they were wrong and hold new contests and figure out a way to pay for it. Also, the voters in those states can take out their grievances on said state legislators who moved their primaries up despite the warnings from the DNC. Vote those idiots out.

And this is neither Barack Obama's fault nor Hillary Clinton's fault.


by GrahamCracker on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The DNC is