UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science

Pity the poor scientists. The Climatalogists are treated as world-conquorers trying to push some fake 'Global Climate Change' policy on our poor children. Real Americans know better.

The scientists say: "What? Were just studying, researching, publishing, understanding -- you know, doing science. Sorry if you don't like the results"

The Biologists are treated as heathens, fanatical zealots of the false god Darwin who refuse to look at other theories. Real Americans know better.

The scientists say: "What? We're just studying, researching, publishing, understanding -- you know, doing science. Sorry if you don't like the results.

The elitists Historians and Political Scientists who spoke out against the war -- and more so against mistakes that followed are anti-American traitors who'd rather see al Qaeda dance triumphant on American bodies than support the President. Real Americans know better.

The scientists say: "What? We're just studying, researching, publishing, understanding -- you know, doing science. Sorry if you don't like the results.

Now, the elitist economists want to see Americans starve, miss out on a necessary gas tax holiday that will lift the middle class out of their financial crisis.

The scientists say: "What? Wait a second. Hillary Clinton is saying this? We expect this from Bush, but Hillary? Really? You mean the unanimous consent of national experts is really worth nothing ONCE AGAIN?"

Then the scientists say: "Wait a second. Smart progressives are buying into this anti-intellectual pablum? Really? Screw this, we're taking our degrees and going to Europe."

And they add:

"By the way, Brawndo's Got What Plants Crave."

UPDATE: Some wiseguys here are making the age-old argument that Economics isn't a science. For them I offer an old article about how the Brits are answering it. It neither supports or defies my premise... since I don't mind dissent. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040706/asp/frontpage/story_3459850.asp ...which discusses how the Royal Society and Cambridge argue the merits of Economics as a science. One commentator notes:
And in my view economics is surely a science. We produce empirical knowledge which is subject to process of testing, broadly interpreted, and feedback; see my post above. We even now have controlled experiments. And look at some of our competitors. String theory is not yet empirical. Environmental science and ecology are rife with ideology. Astronomy doesn't have controlled experiments.
I agree, obviously. My sociologist wife, who relies entirely on peer reviewed data and mathematical analysis for her work, obviously agrees. My physicist father long disagreed, but changed his mind once he got into String Theory.


Poll
Rare instances of scientific agreement tends to be:
right
easily ignored for political gain
only interesting to elitist snobs who are lack 'testicular fortitude' whatever the heck that means other than the ability to take a kick without harming sperm
I'd ask a linguist what 'testicular fortitude' means, but they're too busy laughing

Votes: 7
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

It seems to me she's cleaning Obama's clock on this one. Particular in states with a rural population where distances are long and wages low, 18 cents a gallon makes a difference.


by Little Otter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:24:58 AM EST

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

Why does polling say what you are claiming is not true?


by Bobby Obama on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

Yup.  Score another victory for the ignorant in this country.  Another politician pandering to the ignorant and poor masses - just what the country needs.

Another example of how Hillary and McCain are the same.


by MikeyB on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:29:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

Wow - another enlightened Obama supporter. yes, when you drive round trip 80 miles a day and only make $7.50 an hour, 18 cents a gallon makes a difference in your budget.


by Little Otter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:33:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

if you're traveling 40 miles each way for a minimum wage job, perhaps you should look for something closer to home.


by jbill on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:57:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sure they HAVE.. (none / 0)

I am feeling ill today..

>If you're traveling 40 miles each way for a minimum wage job, perhaps you should look for something closer to home.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

Bush is going to veto any windfall profits tax and HRC knows this, so her plan is not going to be paid for even if it did go through, which it won't. It's a shame people are buying into it


by aaaa05 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

And truly you know it's not $.18 a gallon passed on to consumers? Right?

If not, I'll have to trust some other source for whether its "cleaning Obama's clock." That also requires some research.

But even IF she is, even IF it's a smart move, politically, in dismissing not just some of the experts, but ALL OF THE EXPERTS (not one has come forward in agreement, as far as I know -- and Politico has confirmed) disagree.

Aren't there some things more important than "popular?" Such as "Right?"

In fact, I don't expect a candidate to go for "right" everytime. Politics is necessary. But when the supposedly smart politics is WRONG -- then crowing about its success makes as much sense as a Freeper saying Bush was right to go into Iraq for WMDs, even though none were found, because the country BELIEVED some might be found.

And that, at least, had expert disagreement at the time. This doesn't.

I mean, there's a reason McCain supports this. He's a republican, and they run on a national platform of WRONG.

Hillary should know better. In fact, she does. That she and her surrogates continue to push this reflects poorly on them and horribly on her.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:31:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

Such hysteria! The point is that it's a popular proposal that if enacted as proposed would make a difference in people's lives - whether you like it or not.

What you're traumatized about is that she's beating Obama over the head with it and she's making her point. She understands that for people who travel long distances, and don't earn a lot of money - all of which is quite common in rural communities - this would, if enacted as proposed, make a difference in their lives. She understands that. Obama doesn't. Apparently, neither do his supporters.


by Little Otter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:36:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

What's the point of this diary? HRC is quite progressive when it comes to science and innovation. You don't hear her suggesting we should slash the budgets of NASA and the NSF.


by Iceblinkjm on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:28:27 AM EST

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

Then why is she bashing them? Did you hear Menendez today?


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

It would help if you would link. I really can't understand the point of what your trying to say. I think your just grasping at straws here and trying to keep this in conversation.


by Iceblinkjm on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

Talking Points Memo pulled this gem out:

Top Hillary surrogate Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ) was on MSNBC this morning defending her gas tax holiday: "Thank God that we don't have economists making necessarily public policy . . ."

That is what set me off.

I voted for this joker.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:40:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

Do we really need this diary?


by Pravin on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:28:39 AM EST

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

If Gas Tax "Holiday" supporters may think this diary isn't necessary, won't do anything to help anyone, and is just gunning for Rec votes...  then I guess they support this diary?

Seriously though. Ignoring every expert is Bush's domain. Any democrat who argues for bad policy because it MIGHT equal votes (and WONT equal a solution) DID NOT learn the lesson of the last 8 years.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

If you want to discuss the gas tax fine but don't try to infer that Clinton's support of repealing the gas tax constitutes a war on science. What an outrageous accusation that has no basis in fact. Like I said earlier HRC has the MOST innovative and comprehensive policy on both energy and technology. It's one of the many reasons why I support her.


by Iceblinkjm on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

How is:

Top Hillary surrogate Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ) was on MSNBC this morning defending her gas tax holiday: "Thank God that we don't have economists making necessarily public policy . . ."

...not attacking scientists for disagreeing with her?


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

What is this total nonsense? This is absurd BS, utterly meaningless, baseless crap  in this diary.

Hillary has a deeply sophisticated energy plan to address the gas and energy crisis long term (while Obama voted for the Bush-Cheney energy bill), and trying to trash her short term assist to consumers facing prohibitive gas prices this summer as though it was her proposal to remedy the crisis is misleading and ridiculous.


by 07rescue on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:33:20 AM EST

Re: Hillary's War on Science (2.00 / 1)

How can we trust any of her "energy plan" if snobby economists are ignored.

But that's for the insults. It's got to hurt to realize your candidate is as removed from the reality-based community as Bush.

Hurt a lot, I'd imagine.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:38:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

Eh... I think it's possible to criticize Clinton's dismissal of expert opinion without pretending economics is a hard science and extending her dismissal of the economists to a dismissal of all science. This diary is a reach and fail.


by Mobar on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:39:09 AM EST

Economists are not scientists (none / 0)

like physicists, chemists, biologists, geologists. Much of economics is bullshit.


by observer5 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:40:05 AM EST

Re: Economists are not scientists (2.00 / 1)

Ah, yes. The Soft Science argument.

You know, when supporting your candidate requires you to diss entire fields of discipline and their centuries of peer reviewed research, you might just be a little too engaged in the personality over the policy.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:42:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

From Nobel Prize winning economist, Paul A. Samuelson:

"Economics has never been a science - and it is even less now than a few years ago."  


by TxKat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:44:07 AM EST

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

enough with your hyperbolic commentary.  science is predicated on facts so here are a few you might want to incorporate into your next blog.
1. the only empirical study done on the gas tax holiday actually supports senator clinton's position.
http://www.nber.org/tmp/65433-w12266.pdf

2. senator clinton has repeatedly stated her commitment to scientific inquiry and she "will restore the federal government's commitment to science by:

   * Rescinding the ban on ethical embryonic stem cell research
    * Banning political appointees from unduly interfering with scientific conclusions and publications
    * Directing department and agency heads to safeguard against political pressure that threatens scientific integrity and to promote transparency in decision-making
    * Appointing an Assistant to the President for Science and Technology Policy and strengthening the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy
    * Reviving and enhancing the national assessment on climate change
    * Enhancing American leadership in space through investments in exploration, earth sciences, and aeronautics research
    * Pursuing a comprehensive innovation agenda, including establishing a $50 billion Strategic Energy Fund"

source:  http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/relea se/view/?id=3566


by txyellowdawg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:48:43 AM EST

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

If she's so bullish on science (heck, let's just call it "academically credentialled experts in the field" if this sites many so-called hard scientists demand (and don't include biology in that list!), then why disparage those experts? How often are they of one mind anyway?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080430/ts_n m/usa_politics_gastax_economists_dc

Economists said that since refineries cannot increase their supply of gasoline in the space of a few summer months, lower prices will just boost demand and the benefits will flow to oil companies, not consumers.

"You are just going to push up the price of gas by almost the size of the tax cut," said Eric Toder, a senior fellow at the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center in Washington.


Economists also saw it is a poor way of getting money to the households that need it most and warned that it might end up in the cash tills of the oil companies.

"If you want to provide households tax relief, a direct rebate ... is more effective. Not all of the tax relief from a gas tax holiday will be passed on to consumers. Some will likely be kept by refiners," Mankiw said in an e-mail response.


I'm not going to put my lot in with economists," Clinton told George Stephanopolous on ABC's `This Week' after he asked her to name a single economist supporting her plan.

SHE CANT PROVIDE ONE EXPERT, but she can air a lot of commercials.

If this isn't the Bush model against Global Warming, show me otherwise.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

And if she's committed to all this "scientific" progress, why disparage experts? Either her policy paper, or her political speeches don't match. Pick one, and feel embarrassed about the other.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A lot of hysteria (none / 0)

about nothing. I think CLinton's policy is not right here, but let's fact it, even if enacated, it's only a minor, temporary thing. And what's this  crap about "Real americans?" One can't be a "real American" if they don't share your views?


by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:45 AM EST

Re: A lot of hysteria (none / 0)

The "Real Americans" line is based upon the dismissal of the experts Clinton supporters keep pushing.

And sure, maybe it's a minor, temporary thing, that does little for anybody. So, what's the point? It'll put the government that much more in debt, help the oil companies that much more, and do the opposite of what we should be doing as a country -- providing solutions to discourage our dependence on oil. Not encourage it.

It's all around bad. In lots of scientific disciplines.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

I havent seen this "Real Americans" comment coming from the Clinton camp. I don't agree with the tax holiday, but I don't think it's horrible either. I agree with Krugman, itn's not evil, but its pointless. Not a big deal, certainly not worthy of the histrionic tone of this diary


by Mayor McCheese on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:11:32 PM EST

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

Um, Hillary continually says that she will end the Bush administration's war on science.  She is very pro-science.  And this future scientist is supporting her.  This diary is crap.


by musicpvm on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:14:11 PM EST

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

That was until she saw an advantage to herself by becoming anti-science


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

She also says she's happy to ignore economists. As a future scientist, would you like to see a concensus opinion by you and all your peers dismissed out of hand by a politician looking to score points? A future president? A sitting president?


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

Well, if anyone care to remember, Bill Clinton actually was responsible for gold rush of 90's because of his investment in science. Under his term it was much easier to get a grant. As a scientist I know that gax-tax Holiday is probably a pointless Idea (not an evil one) but the supply and demand arguments is not going to cut it in current market since those rules no longer apply in a broken market which what we have today.


by NewCommer on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:41:43 PM EST

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

And Bill was right to do it!

I'm sure he never said anything about no "casting his lot" with scientific experts.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

see:

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 05/political_flashback_the_gasoli.html


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

sorry, economics is not a science.  It is based on preferences and tastes of the consumer and what the market will bring.

sure, the data after that can be called "science" for statistical purposes, but household preferences and what is an elastic and inelastic good is not science.


by colebiancardi on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:48:40 PM EST

Re: UPDATE: Hillary's War on Science (none / 0)

This is priceless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwXtJvm1Z ws&eurl=http://matthewyglesias.theat lantic.com/

Bill Clinton's economic plan, endorsed by over 600 economists including 10 Nobel prize winners...


John McCain: Cheney with a temper
by wrb on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:54:32 PM EST


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