The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble

The last polls from Zogby show:
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?I D=1499

NC: Obama leads 51-37
IN: Obama leads 45-43 (the 5/5 half was 47-41 Obama)

So it may be over for Hillary.  I still think he's off in one
of the two states, but other polls have shown Obama gaining
in Indiana (though still behind).  I really believe the AA turnout (especially among early voters)
will sink Clinton in North Carolina.  Thoughts?



Display:


Didn't expect this at all (none / 0)

I figured Zogby would "adjust" his final numbers in line with the other pollsters and "discover" a late "move" toward Clinton in the last night of polling in Indiana. But the opposite seems to have happened.

So once again, it's Zogby v. SUSA. In California, SUSA cleaned Zogby's clock. Is this Zogby's revenge? Or is it California redux?


by elrod on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:19:21 AM EST

Re: Didn't expect this at all (none / 0)

California redux.  Zogby is like God's gift to the Clinton campaign.  They consistently help set the expectations way too high for the Obama camp.


by KevinT on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:22:54 AM EST
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Re: Didn't expect this at all (none / 0)

Any thing less than what Zogby said is a loss for Obama:-)


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:32:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

I think he has NC about right, and yes, I think Obama's strength among early voters (according to every pollster) makes it tough for Clinton to make very close.

The opposite seems to be true in Indiana. SUSA shows Hillary doing better among early voters there, however early voters only account for 3% of the their sample (so the margin of error for that subsample would be so high as to make the numbers worthless). I think Obama may be able to keep it within 5.

Zogby appears to show Obama doing better among white voters than some other pollsters. On the other hand, I think Obama will get more of the AA vote than Zogby's numbers indicate (79% is what I believe he shows). Who really knows. It's all about turnout models when you have states like these where candidates each have distinctive demographic and geographic strongholds.


by DPW on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:19:25 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

Predicting that Obama will get less than 90% of the AA vote in the Southeast is utterly laughable, and it calls any pollsters validity into question....


A PROUD Hopium user!
by xodus1914 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 4)

It's Zogby.  I could place index cards showing various margins in a circle and have one of my pet turtles crawl over one of the cards, and that would be more scientific than his polls.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:20:39 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

mojos for best comment.  ever.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:27:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

Thanks.  I was actually thinking of doing a snark diary about that.  Maybe for Oregon...


by rfahey22 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:40:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

Wow, that is a not expected.  Zogby's final night polls have been extremely accurate as of late.  Did Gas Tax blow up on her?


Matthew25Network.com
by cardboard 1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:20:46 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

Zogby has been essentially wrong all year. Even in Pa., his last day poll showed big movement to Obama. For this Tuesday, he is going against virtually all the other polls in both states. The other polls show Clinton leading Indiana 4-12 points, and Obama leading NC, 3-10 points. Zogby goes outside of the extreme margins in both states, and in both instances favors Obama, as he has basically done all year long. So why is this? we can't be certain, but for starters, Zogby's brother is a super D for Obama. Thank God for coincidence.


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:45:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

I'm pretty sure Zogby was a hot streak.  He got NH, OH, and TX I think... He missed PA and CA


Matthew25Network.com
by cardboard 1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

He did reasonably well in Pa., Texas, and Missouri. He got pummelled in Cali, NJ,  Massachusetts, and Ohio, amongst others.


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

California & Zogby (none / 0)

Actually I think California was skewed by the early voting... most of it was done before Obama's campaign surge there.

In other words, a lot of people voted Clinton or Edwards before getting to know Obama or realizing that Edwards was out of the race.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:11:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: California & Zogby (none / 0)

As a pollster you are supposed to take all the factors into account, and not make excuses about skewing. If he can't understand early voting and how it relates to his poll, he shouldn't be in the business.


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:30:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well yes (none / 0)

That's one reason why Zogby is terrible.

I'm not defending Zogby here, I'm just telling you why he screwed it up.  He caught the current mood, not the mood that led to Clinton's victory weeks before.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well yes (none / 0)

I understand, and please be assurred, I'm not being critical of you. The thing about Zogby is, did he just catch a particular mood, or was he deliberately trying to deceive? Because surely he knew there had been early voting, which Clinton carried handily?


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:13:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He has an outdated model. (none / 0)

I don't think he was deliberately doing anything.  He just has a horrendously outdated model that was good in the early '90s but sucks now.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He has an outdated model. (none / 0)

It's just funny that his horrendously outdated model always seems to favor one over the other.


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

His last poll in PA was Clinton 51 Obama 41.

He hit it on the nose.


by BDM on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

But bear in mind, he was still all over the place in Pa.. On the Sat. before the election he had Obama +2 that day. On Sun, he had Clinton +15, and on Mon he had Clinton +5. Therefore in his 2 day tracking poll, he had a +10 Clinton lead, but he was fully prepared to crow about a late Obama surge if that had materialized. It's called buttering your bread on both sides. Zogby has no credibility even when he appears to do well.


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:26:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

Zogby has been the most Probama pollster this year, but he's probably on to something here.

Obama should win both states in blowouts.  One is his backyard, the other is demographically his stronghold.

chart is based on their final polls.

Zogby                 Obama +4.6
Strategic Vision      Obama +3.3
PPP                   Obama +2.7
Quinnipiac            Obama +1.6
Rasmussen             Obama +0.8
Suffolk               Obama +0.2
SurveyUSA             Clinton +0.8
Research 2000         Clinton +1.4
Mason-Dixon           Clinton +2.0
Insider Advantage     Clinton +2.1
ARG                   Clinton +4.5

Thanks to BPK80 for finding this.


by reggie44pride on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:39:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

You predict 10% of voters in NC will vote for someone else and even higher in IN???


by Bobby Obama on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:30:42 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

That's a fair prediction except that your numbers only add up to 90% and 87% respectively!  ;-)


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:31:36 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

I'm not buying it, considering the other polls, especally the SUSA one, showing a formidable lead for Hillary.

I'll stick with +8 in Indiana and -8 in NC.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:31:47 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

Edwards must have relaunched his campaign


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:32:03 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

GRAVELANCHE!!!!


by Bobby Obama on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

Isnt he still on the ballot?


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

I don't think so


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

Let's hope Zogby has indeed learned from Super Tuesday and keeps his great Post-Super Tuesday record up.


by Bobby Obama on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:36:38 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

He was right on in PA and in TX. He hit MO, WI and IA.

Remember his tracking poll picks up polling for 5/5 while all others were from 5/3-5/4.

His Monday sample showed Onama 47 Clinton 41.

Also Insider's advantage had indicated that their was movement towards Obama IN iNDIANA. Their poll showed it Clinton 47.6 to Obama's 44.2 a 3.4% gap with 8 pts un-decided.


by BDM on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:37:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

Isn't Insider Advantage also a terrible polling outfit?  Besides, the number of undecideds is huge.

Much as I'd like the numbers to be true, I'm going to say that Obama wins by ~10 in NC; Clinton by ~7 in IN.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:43:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

Well for Obama supporters Insider Advantage is a terrible pollster for North Carolina, but a wonderful poster for Indiana. There is something about Insider advantages polls for them in those 2 states. What could it be?


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

May be they always look for outsider advantage.


by Sandeep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

I am hoping it is REAL!!!!


by Bobby Obama on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

There is something about your name that gave your hopes away.


The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -- Thomas Jefferson
by pollbuster on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Onama (none / 0)

That sounds like a sushi restaurant...


by elrod on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

There is no God. Zogby will be wrong again.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

All the Indiana polling appears to underestimate the AA turnout. SUSA and IA have it at 10%, while PPP is at 12% and Zogby at 11%. The overall AA population in IN is roughly 10%, which would suggest something more like 15% for a dem primary in a reddish state.

This works both ways, however. Most of these polls also have the female number too low.

Moreover, age and geographic distribution is important, given the distinctive bases for each candidate.

The accuracy of these polls depends ultimately on the turnout model, and frankly, I don't like the turnout models for any of them. I imagine that they are based on past IN primaries, but none of those really matter (and neither involved a female or AA candidate).


by DPW on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:01:04 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (none / 0)

Although I'd love it is Zogby was right, I think he's off his rocker.

NC should go to Obama by 8
IN will go to Clinton by 6

Zogby may be overestimating AA turnout in Indiana.  The supreme court vote on the voter ID law will certainly depress turnout there as well as among new voters.  Add that to the fact that Indiana is an open primary and Rush Limbaugh has asked all Republicans to vote for Hillary as part of Operation Chaos.


by shalca on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:27:43 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

I think though this is the first time in a while (WI really) Obama has had a better closing weekend than she has.  The regression of his "surge" has not taken place over the weekend as it did in OH, TX and PA.


by affratboy22 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:11:10 AM EST

Re: The latest cup o' Z--Hillary in trouble (2.00 / 1)

Good Point. Obama had a good weekend and Senator Clinton's Summer gas strategy exploded.


by Politicalslave on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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