Taking in NC & IN

“You know, Sen. Clinton is more favored in Pennsylvania,and I’m right now a little more favored in North Carolina, so Indiana right now may end up being the tiebreaker.” Barack Obama, April 11, 2008

My general take on the race is that it depends on whether Obama can close either race, NC or IN, by gaining undecided voters. According to Poblano, Obama will defeat Clinton by a 18% margin, 59-41 in NC; and PsiFighter37 that Obama will defeat Clinton by a a 16% margin of victory, 58-42 in NC. How can these, admittedly, Obama supporters come out with such trumped up hope in the face of the credible polls like SUSA showing only a 5% lead by Obama in NC?

Simple, as I said before, they are stuck in believing that the Obama of February still exists; and in fact, they've even got some form of math to back it up. It's true, as Todd pointed out, that the Obama of February, should wipe up in NC in similar numbers that his supporters above believe, but he won't. Why? Because since early in March, Clinton has been turning her ship, and is arguably running a better campaign than Obama has since April, and in the last two weeks that's become more and more obvious to Democrats nationwide. Tomorrow, the damn may break open, but as I said, it depends on the undecideds. Take a look at the three most recent big races:

In Ohio, Obama ended the polls at 43, and got 44; in Texas he ended at 46 and got 47.5; in PA he ended at 43.5 and got 45.5.

For those three states, Obama gained 1 in TX, 1.5 in OH, and 2 in PA.

In contrast, Clinton gained 3.5 in TX, 4 in OH, 6 percent in PA.

That is a consistent 3:1 break of the undecided numbers to Clinton, if you are going to take the most recent contests as a guide. My guess is, that this is at least partly due to the continual under-polling of the gender gap that continues unabated, but its more. Obama had previously closed many states much higher than his closing poll number-- the race has changed.

Is it enough? Yes, most definitely it is for Indiana. Clinton has closed strong there, and a similar margin to Ohio and Pennsylvania seems doable for Clinton. The numbers I have are along the lines of a 54-46 margin for Clinton, which might be upped if Zogby comes out with more favorable numbers for Clinton that up the IN poll of polls numbers.

NC is a different picture. On the one hand, you've got a very high early voting number happening, and multiple sources have said that it is favoring Obama by about a 15% margin. This could be in contrast as to what happened in CA, where according to SUSA, Clinton ran up the numbers by locking in the early voters in high numbers. This would be an irony, because Clinton's state director in NC is Ace Smith, who would be getting beat at his own game if this pans out to be the case. The other thing I've noted is a couple of pollsters (PPP) showing that for those who will vote the day of the election, it is tied between Clinton and Obama. Early voting is sometimes an indicator of a larger trend, but its also sometimes just pockets of voters that are not much bigger than the numbers that vote early. Giving the undecideds at a 3:1 margin for Clinton, it closes it to about a 6 percent race, 53-47. Now, that should be off, and the race should at least, given the demographic favor, close 3:1 to Obama for a 56-44 advantage, but the environment doesn't seem to indicate that will happen (though the early voting points to it being a possibility).

It does seem like a make or break moment, but hasn't it seemed that way for weeks on end too?



Display:


Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Why do you think voters would close to Clinton in NC? You're forgetting that black voters are even MORE committed to Obama than in February. And there are a lot of black undecideds in most polls.

Also, the last Zogby poll showed moved to Obama in Indiana and North Carolina. Either Zogby screwed up again, or they could movement in tonight's polling that nobody else has picked up yet.


by elrod on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:49:17 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Zogby's been screwed up for a long time.

Just sayin'.


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Didn't Jerome post a diary defending Zogby yesterday?


Matthew25Network.com
by cardboard 1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Not defending them, just showing that they knew why they screwed up, and have done OK on theother recent states, but not as good as SUSA. But yes, usually they are good at late breaking trends.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:06:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If you look at the data (none / 0)

Zogby and SUSA aren't that different in Indiana.

SUSA is pushing undecideds, and as a result Clinton's number goes up, and Obama's remain constant in Indiana.  This repeats behavior in Ohio and Penn shows up when you look at late deciders in exit polling.

In NC is also Clinton's number that is different (Zogby has Obama at 51, SUSA has him at 50.).  Exit polling suggests that undecideds have broken for Obama in the South (VA, SC, GA) but these contests took place in very different circumstances.

I have little doubt Clinton will win by 10 or more in Indiana.

I have no idea what is going to happen in NC.


by fladem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:21:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

So in your worst case scenario for Obama, he wins NC by 5 and Hillary wins IN by 12? Do I have that right? If so, where does she go from there? There will only be 200 outstanding pledged delegates left and she'll have to win over 70% of them to get the pledged delegate lead. I promise you, if one candidate is leading by even a single pledged delegate at the end of this, they will win. It's not required by the rules but it's an entrenched frame. Ignore it at your peril.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:25:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I don't know.  I just remember seeing a lot of really strange Zogby polls this season.

For what it's worth, I'm an Obama supporter, so I'd love to believe he's up in Indiana, but I doubt that's the case.


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:08:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Why do you think voters would close to Clinton in NC? You're forgetting that black voters are even MORE committed to Obama than in February. And there are a lot of black undecideds in most polls.

Also, the last Zogby poll showed moved to Obama in Indiana and North Carolina. Either Zogby screwed up again, or they could movement in tonight's polling that nobody else has picked up yet.


by elrod on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:49:38 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

He is starting to look like a loser.

That hurts turnout.


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

It is the white voters who are deciding late in large numbers.  

As for the black vote, there is the potential that only 15% of it voted early, it all comes down to how many potential supporters turn out.


by jimotto on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:08:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

It is only "make or break" for Hillary.  It is a fantasy to pretend either will gain significantly in delegates, and regardless of who wins, on June 4th Obama will lead in elected delegates by 100 or more, and if the Supers choose Hillary over Obama... well... it gets ugly.

I am also concerned about some rumors coming out about more Big Dog sex stories hitting the press if Hillary were to become the nominee.  Worse than Rev. Wright, eh?


by Bob Beard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:49:53 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I count differently than you have have it under 100.

Did you count 50 states?


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:47:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (2.00 / 1)

Early Voting Statistics are in:

333,744 EARLY DEMS
61,584 EARLY UNA w/ Dem Ballots

44% EARLY DEMS BLACK = 146,847
56% EARLY DEMS WHITE = 186,897

No race breakdown for unaffiliateds.

PREDICTIONS:

Assumptions: Blacks 90-10% OBAMA FAVOR. Whites 67-33% CLINTON FAVOR. UNA 50-50% TIE
We are going with 50-50 on the unaffiateds simply for the sake of argument. This author believes the unaffiliateds will break to Obama to a degree due to the fact that most unaffiliateds are located in the major urban markets, more upscale, and more professional on average compared to the average Democratic voter. So if the unaffiliateds break towards Obama then his totals will be underrepresented in this model.

EARLY VOTERS:

DEMO                       OBAMA                CLINTON
BLACK                      132,162                 14,685
WHITE                       61,676                   125,221
UNA                          30,792                    30,792

TOTAL                       224,630                 170,698
%                              57%                       43%

ELECTION DAY VOTERS: (Assuming 750,000 vote on Tuesday + 150,000 Unaffiliateds)

Assumptions: Black-White vote preferences same as above. Demo mix 35% BLACK 65% WHITE. Again if black % of vote approaches early totals then it underestimates Obama. Historically black turnout in NC primaries statewide is between 33-40% depending on the year.

DEMO                        TOTAL            OBAMA            CLINTON
BLACK                        262,500          236,250            26,250
WHITE                        487,500           160,875            326,625        
UNA                            150,000           75,000              75,000                  

TOTAL                        900,000           472,125             427,875
%                                                      52%                  48%

ALL TOGETHER          TOTAL              OBAMA            CLINTON
                                   1,295,328         696,755             598,573
                                                           54%                  46%

OBAMA TAKES NC 54-46%

OTHER SCENERIOS:

1) OBAMA takes unaffiliateds by 10% the final result would be 55-45% OBAMA. If CLINTON takes unaffiliateds by 10% the final result would be 53-47% OBAMA.

MORAL: OBAMA takes NC by 6-10% unless unaffiliateds break towards Clinton in HUGE numbers like 20+% or either black % vote is severely depressed on Election Day (not likely given historical means) or Obama's share of white vote falls into the the 20s. That is not likely either as there are far less "bitter" voters in NC than there are in PA. Whites are doing well in the major urban markets in NC and are more upscale affluent professional and educated in Raleigh, Charlotte, Chapel Hill than in the rural areas of the state. In addition, Obama may halve or fully erase the popular vote margin Clinton received out of PA from NC.

AUTHOR'S COMMENT (and not necessarily completely NC related): As it relates to Obama-Clinton, perhaps the biggest change from the earlier primaries is the consolidation of the white vote behind Clinton. If you look at SC that voted back in Feb, Obama received roughly the same proportion of the total vote and vote by race as is predicted above. However, in SC, Edwards received a plurality of the white male vote in SC effectively neutering Clinton then. Now in a two-man race, Clinton has consolidated all of the non-Obama white vote and things stand where they are now. This is born out in polling for WV, KY which are much more white (especially in the case of WV) and more demographically similar to PA than other states. While Clinton may not be specifically playing the race card - between the Wright controversy, the bitter controversy and Clinton's overt targeting of down-scale whites has created the semblence of a similar to 1972 with Clinton playing to role of then-George Wallace preying on people's fears due to socio-economic factors. So it is no surprise then that Clinton's best states and best groups (with the exception of professional white women) have been in places where the 21st century just hasn't caught up yet. Perhaps this is why these people are "bitter"...


by southerndemnut on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:23 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Nice breakdown.


by montana36 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I suspect the early white vote is over 40% for Obama.


by jimotto on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (2.00 / 1)

GO HILLARY GO!!!!  Rock on girlfriend!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:00:21 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

>> How can these, admittedly, Obama supporters come
>> out with such trumped up hope in the face of the
>> credible polls like SUSA showing only a 5% lead
>> by Obama in NC?

Probably the same way most Hillary supporters convince themselves their candidate has a shot.

Right now, Obama needs 282 more delegates, pledged or super, to secure the nomination; Clinton needs 415.5.  (Both numbers from Demconwatch.)  There are 187 pledged delegates up for grabs in tomorrow's primary.  Due to the vagaries of district apportionment of delegates, there's little chance either candidate will come out of tomorrow with more than a 10-delegate net gain over the other.

But let's say Hillary gets 100 delegates tomorrow and Obama gets 87; that leaves Obama with 195 to go, compared to Hillary still with 315.5 to go.  In that case, Hillary would have made up a small amount of ground, but Obama would be much closer to securing the nomination.

The bottom line is that Obama is approaching the finish line much faster than Hillary is approaching Obama.

Can superdelegates change this?  Sure, they can.  Will they?  I don't really see why they would.  They've been trickling in for both candidates for awhile now; for the last month they've been coming in slightly faster for Obama.  At this point, Clinton needs to create a radical change in that dynamic in order to have a realistic shot at the nomination, and I don't see that happening.

Keep in mind also that Hillary getting 100 pledged delegates tomorrow for a +13 net is highly unlikely.  The numbers you predict above would likely only result in a net gain of +5 to +10 for Clinton.  I think a break-even result is probably the most likely outcome tomorrow, with a Clinton win in Indiana counterbalancing an Obama win in North Carolina, leaving the race unchanged... except that a precious one-quarter of the delegates that Clinton needs to close the gap will be out of play.


by Frood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:01:27 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

You have passionately convinced yourself that the finish line is 2025.

But that isn't looking like where it will be.

Current trends after tomorrow give Hillary ~24 pledged delegates from closing out the race.  +56 from Florida and Michigan counting.

Then Obama has a ~75 delegate land likely he will lose the popular vote.

If Edwards and his ~26 delegates go Hillary's way that leaves ~50 delegates which is 55% of supers voting for popular vote over undemocratic caucuses.

Tomorrow is Obama's last shot =)


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

According to the rules, the finish line is 2025 (or 2024.5 or whatever). If you want to try change the rules mid-contest (aka cheat), then go for it, but don't be surprised or offended when we call you on it.
by ChrisKaty on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Haha, even with your dream scenario you can't get her under a 50 vote pledged delegate spread. Even making all those crazy assumptions do you realize that there is no evidence at all to support your expectation that Hillary would win enough supers to make up that shortfall. And by the way, if you don't count add-ons which we already know will be a wash (if not favorable to Obama) Hillary would have to win a lot more than 55% of the remaining supers to make up a 50 delegate deficit.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

If Clinton can not win both NC and IN then she needs to step out. I also think that if Obama wins NC then a lot of supers will pledge to him, I mean so many that Clinton will essentially be eclipsed and fade away. She'll have to drop out just to save political face.


by montana36 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:10:03 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I don't think she needs to step out. I say let the process run its course. We are only a month away from the conclusion.

What I think should happen after the last primary is that all of the unpledged delegates speak out and let's get a presumptive nominee, whomever that will be. The worst thing that could happen is an ugly floor fight at the end of August that would split the party in two - if this happens, neither candidate would have enough time to heal the wounds that would be inflicted by such an ugly fight.


by GrahamCracker on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I thought that if she could have turned things around with PA and then IN and NC then it might be worth letting things continue. PA wasn't a big enough win to make up any ground for her, IN isn't looking that way either and with an outright lose in NC that would essentially seal her fate.

The remaining contests can't dramatically change the outcome anymore and I think the party needs to focus on unifying after this exhaustive primary. Clinton stepping out after tomorrow would allow time for that. I also see Clinton's exit as the best thing for her political career, it won't look good to be a sore loser or to pull the party down.


by montana36 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:25:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Fair enough.

I don't think Senator Clinton would damage her political career by staying in until June 3rd, but taking it to the convention and fighting for primaries (FL and MI) that she admitted early this year weren't going to count (at least she said that about Michigan, as I remember) would wreck the party's chances in November.
Hillary has done a lot for the Democratic Party and I don't see her knowingly doing something that would do harm.


by GrahamCracker on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I agree that taking it to the floor and the so called nuclear option would wreck the party.

I think her staying in after tomorrow's primary would lead people to think she might use that option in fact many people already think she will. That makes her look power hungry and that damages her image.

If she were to concede gracefully and turn all her efforts to reconciliation I think she would fair much better.


by montana36 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

She will only have to stay in if Florida and Michigan aren't counted.

Otherwise she will likely have the votes by then.


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:56:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Please stop repeating (none / 0)

that she said MI doesn't count, without putting it in context.

http://www.nhpr.org/node/13858  10/11/07

(caller Q)

HRC: I signed the DNC pledge not to campaign, not to spend money, in any of the states that were not in compliance with the rules established by the DNC that certainly strongly maintains NH's status.  I personally did not think it made any difference whether or not my name was on the ballot...(remarks about people of NH & IA wanting to win GE)...But if you look at some of the states we have to win, the margins have been narrow, and it wasn't in my view meaningful, but I'm not going to say that there's absolutely a total ignoring of the people in all these other states that won't come back to haunt us if we're not careful about it.

( Host Q re: then why not just take your name off)

HRC: I personally did not think it made any difference, uh, whether or not my name was on the ballot. You know, it's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything, but I just personally didn't want to set up a situation where the Republicans are going to be campaigning between now and whenever and then after the nomination you know we have to go in and repair the damage to be ready to win in Michigan in November 2008.  I'm not going to campaign there before the deadline of the February 5th window, I'm not going to spend any money there, but I did not believe it was fair to , you know, just say, "Goodbye, Michigan" and not take into account the fact that we're going to have to win Michigan if we're going to be in the White House in January, 2009.

(Host Q re: do you think it was a tactical mistake by Mssrs Obama and Edwards to take their names off?

HRC: Well, they have to speak for themselves.


by desert dawg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

"I don't think she needs to step out. I say let the process run its course. We are only a month away from the conclusion. "

Clinton supporters have already been starting to say CONVENTION instead of "Early June", so I'm afraid you're overly optimistic there about how near to the conclusion we are.


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

North Carolina (none / 0)


   is a double digit win for Obama. Sorry Jerome, but Obama has recovered strong there. Your wishful thinking is understandable...but I think we'll see a 12 point..56-44 win for Obama there.

  As far as Indiana...I think Clinton will take it.


by southernman on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:13:21 AM EST

Re: North Carolina (none / 0)

Actually, pollster.com is showing Obama declining which Clinton is gaining so the 'poll of polls' curve does not agree with you.

In fact, if you believe the 'poll of polls' approach Obama will win by 6-8%.


by kristoph on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: North Carolina (none / 0)


   Poll of polls isn't measuring those who've already voted is it?

   If not, if Obama wins by 8 on election day, he wins by 12 or so overall I think...hence my 56-44 prediction.


by southernman on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

North Carolina Early Voting (none / 0)

Nice diary.

Keep in mind that early voting with high AA turnout favored John Kerry by about 5% in 2004.  I don't remember the exact margins, but the more heavily white day-of voting brought Kerry's initial lead down to the +10% deficit that ended up losing him the state.

If that process replicates itself, the Obama lead in early voting could indicate nothing more than "AA's & Obama supporters tend to vote earlier," consistent with the North Carolina of 2004.

Common sense should also remind us that the more Obama supporters there are voting early, the less there will be to go around on election day.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:13:48 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I forsee Obama coming out ahead in the popular vote in all of the Dem-held US House seats in NC. Clinton will carry the Rep-held seats. All of the Dem-held seats, with the exception of 11th, are tied in around the major metro areas of the state. The 11th's major population center is Asheville which is über-liberal. If Clinton carries any Dem-held districts it would be the 11th. Most of the Rep-held seats are heavily rural and heavily socially conservative, even the relatively few Dems that are in them. By default Hillary has become the socially conservative candidate in the race.

If the results go as I see above - it will give impetus for the remaining undecided superdelegates in NC to swing to Obama. It was easy for Mel Watt & David Price to go for Obama because he will carry those districts by wide margins. But if Obama carries 2-7-11-13 those supers will go for him too. Easley going for Clinton is a good story but he doesn't carry the machine weight as say Gov. Hunt. Easley just doesn't work the party like the others. Now Hunt, Andy Griffith, Dean Smith now those people would move the voters.

One thing to note, NC has more college towns than any state east of the Mississippi and more students enrolled in a university (whether they are from instate or out-of-state people coming here for school) second to California. While some of these voters are registered elsewhere in their respective hometowns, that is a huge pool of voters to tap and the schools are spread all over the state.

The biggest difference between NC & PA (aside from the fact that there are more blacks in NC than in PA) is that in NC most of the old-timey "bitter" voters are now Republicans while in PA alot of them are still Democrats. And most of those "bitter" voters in PA were Catholic while Catholic population is low in NC and where there are Catholics they are relatively affluent urban transplants.

In my home county, Mecklenburg, I fully expect Obama to take in excess of 40% of the white vote mainly because Charlotte white voter is very different than white voter in Swain County. He will likely carry Mecklenburg 60-40%+.

In a related storyline - these are harmonized elections in NC unlike in many of the early primary states where the Presidential race was its own poll. The bad news for the GOP is that most as has been born out in the early voting statistics where 64,000 unaffiliateds voted Dem whereas only 5,800 voted GOP all of the moderate voters will be sucked out of the GOP races. That means that in many tight races, like for Governor, the more conservative candidates may win. Improves Dem odds of carrying many races since the GOP will be down to their base voters. It will truly be astonishing if my visions prove correct and 1.3 million people vote in the Dem primary and only 400-500K vote in the GOP primary. God Bless America!


by southerndemnut on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:29:48 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)


Thanks for the in-state analysis.

Should be an interesting evening tomorrow.


by GrahamCracker on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (2.00 / 1)

There is no way Obama wins NC-11.  The minority population there is less than 5%, and the 'urban' population of Asheville is a very small part of the overall total in the district.  

Hillary will also challenge in NC-2.  Bob Etheridge's district includes a slice of Wake County and a whole lot of rural areas.  

NC-13 is also not a given for Obama.  It is another district with a slice of Wake County and the rural counties up to VA and over towards Greensboro.  Bill Clinton made at least 3 appearances in this one district the past 2 days.

I would only consider NC-1, 4, and 12 to be sure wins for Obama.


Enough is enough!
by Bear83 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Well, now I'm suspect, as I believe Clinton will pick up a couple of dem congressional cds pretty easily.


by Jerome Armstrong on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:19:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I think she'll win Shuler's because of the large retirement population and then rural area, but where else do you see that happening?


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

North Carolina is all over the charts.

However, the weather is going to be perfect tomorrow.
There should be an extremely high turnout.
This is not necessarily good for Obama, even though it was in the past.
The higher the turnout, the more independents and the lower percentage of black voters.

I lived in NC for almost twenty years - granted most of the time in the rarefied air of Chapel Hill.  North Carolina has disappointed Democrats and African Americans time and time again.  When people say that the state has changed, I hasten to remind them that Jesse Helms was their senator until 2003.  I suspect that there may be a Bradley Effect - not to mention that the voting will be along racial lines.

If such holds, then Obama's margin may be quite small - while there is the outside chance of a stunning upset if African Americans make up only 30% of primary voters.


by johnnygunn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:35:29 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

IT'S THE DELEGATES STUPID.

HILLARY ALREADY LOST...THE CABLE NEWS STATIONS PRETEND IT'S STILL A RACE FOR RATINGS.

OBAMA only needs 282 delegates.
Clinton needs 415.5

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/ superdelegate-list.html


by annasia on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:39:37 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

If you are correct why do you think the super delegates are not coming forward to end the nomination? Why has Dean stacked the Rules and Bylaws committee with Clinton loyalists? Why is Obama even competing?

Open your mind, it won't hurt :-)


by kristoph on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I dont know why the supers aren't coming out yet probably because the perception is the race is still 'fluid' and give the last states an opportunity to be heard. But unless Obama just collapses in such a way that Hillary overtakes him in the popular vote (without FL & MI) - what will happen is that once we get to June and Obama is under 100 degelates needed the supers will start breaking to him en masse and he will be over the line before the mess of FL & MI need to be resolved. This way FL & MI can be seated, even favorable to Clinton and yet not appear to have stolen the race for her.

Imagine if Obama had bombed and Edwards survived to today. He wasn't on the ballot in MI either so we would have played this out all over again as well.


by southerndemnut on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:58:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Popular vote without Florida and Michigan?

Now who is trying to rip the party apart?


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:59:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I think the commenter just meant to suggest that she had to have some unassailable argument for the nomination that she could make to supers. Obviously, supers aren't buying the popular vote argument with Florida and Michigan or Hillary would have won amongst superdelegates since Pennsylvania.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:28:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Then don't worry about it!


by rossinatl on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome you have a spelling mistake in your headlin (none / 0)

ITS

T A N K I N G

NOT

T A K I N G


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:12:21 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Most of the Obama supporters I've talked to believe Indiana favors Clinton by a few points.
We can always find extreme points of view.
by Politicalslave on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:46:11 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

I take exception to the notion of "Obama of February" versus "Obama of now." Yes the press is being more tough on him but his candicacy is the same. The message has remained consistent and he has attempted, despite it all, to run the same kind of race. In SC the white vote broke down similarly to what we are seeing here in NC and we know how that turned out (of course Edwards was there depressing Clinton's white turnout so we should give her a few points there). Still, the passion of Obama's base has only increased and the nature of state, with the white votes in the major population centers (especially Research Triangle) trending towards the highly educated variety, should produce a substantial Obama victory.

I think you are whistling past the graveyard if you try to talk yourself into Clinton closing within single digits in NC.


by wasder on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:16:39 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

How can these, admittedly, Obama supporters come out with such trumped up hope in the face of the credible polls like SUSA showing only a 5% lead by Obama in NC?  - Jerome

You did actually read Poblano's prediction before making your 'trumped up' charge? His predictions are from a computer model, completely based on demographic voting patterns in previous states. There is no emotion or 'judgment' involved.

BTW, Poblano's model outperformed SUSA in Pennsylvania.


by tysonpublic on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:49:29 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Sorry, do you have any idea how often Poblano's predictions have been wildly off? And do you know anything about "computer" models? People have to make judgments about what goes into them.

Poblano has a habit of generating predictions to degrees of accuracy not justified by the size of his data set, he's just a kid playing with a stats package.


by souvarine on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Wasder your a fool if you think he wins N.C by more than 5-10 points.  Wright damaged Obama in N.C.  Hillary will possibly get 70% of the White vote wish destroys any chance of an Obama double digit victory.


by nzubechukwu on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:51:37 AM EST

Re: Taking in NC & IN (none / 0)

Hillary will not get 70% of the white vote. She won't get more than 67%. And Obama won't get less than 85% of the black vote.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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