Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax

Hard to believe it but the only candidate who's not offering us relief from the sky-rocketing gas prices this summer is paying for ad time to attack Hillay's plan.

Go figure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again until it gets through to folks.  Hillary really does understand what working folks and families watching every penny worry about and need from our next leader.  She listens - she knows what keeps us awake at night with worry... the soaring price of food and gas, that unexpected car repair or a trip to the ER with a sick child but no health insurance.  

Her plans to rebuild the middle class, develop green color jobs that can't be off-shored, help young people go to college, and reform our horrendously broken health care system are all designed to help ease those worries and rebuild the economy Bush has neglected for the past 7 years.  So for anyone to pretend that her gas tax holiday this summer is the only thing she's offering up to help folks hit by the skyrocketing price of gas is just trying to pull the wool over your eyes folks.

There are three candidates out there guys and each one has an idea as to how best to ease the pain at the pump for us this summer.

John McCain would eliminate the tax this summer and not pay for it, depleting the funds available for transportation projects.

Hillary would shift the tax from us to the big oil companies who're raking in record profits, keeping the funds flowing to those much-needed projects.

And Obama would do... nothing.  At least as far as this tax is concerned.  He says it wouldn't help us if they reduced the price of gas by 18 cents a gallon.  So I guess he figures it wouldn't hurt us if they doubled it then too right?

The campaign held a press conference this afternoon - I missed this one because we took the kids to the park to enjoy the sunny day so I'm glad they put out the following transcript for those of us who missed it.  

Howard Wolfson and Phil Singer Discuss the State of the Race
Howard Wolfson and Phil Singer made the following remarks on a conference call this afternoon.

Audio is available here.

Howard Wolfson: Good afternoon everyone. Thank you all for joining us today- a beautiful day here in beautiful downtown Arlington.  Howard Wolfson, the communications director for the Clinton campaign, joined as always on the flight deck by Deputy Communications Director Phil Singer. I say that just because he always shakes his head woefully when I do it.

Today we are talking about something very important. We've seen a very important debate over the last several days in this campaign between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton on the subject of the gas tax and it's a debate about policy that says something larger about the two candidates who are having it. On the one hand, Senator Clinton believes that this summer with gas prices so high and middle class families hurting that the oil companies ought to pay the gas tax. Senator Obama says no. He thinks hard-pressed consumers ought to continue paying the gas tax despite the fact that oil is at record cost and people are hurting. That's a critical distinction in this race between, in Senator Clinton, someone who understands the pain that middle class and working class families are feeling, who wants to help bring immediate relief to them and wants to do it in a fiscally responsible way to ensure that the oil companies make up the revenue and Senator Obama, somebody who just doesn't seem to understand that middle class families are hurting, working class families are hurting and that they need relief. He would rather side with the oil companies over the interests of middle class families.

So it's an important policy difference that says something larger about the two candidates and that larger frame is consistent with some of the policy differences we've seen throughout this campaign.

On the issue of health care, Senator Clinton understands that every American needs and deserves quality affordable health care. Senator Obama leaves fifteen million people out, a key distinction between somebody who is committed to helping every single person and somebody who else who says "no, we can afford to leave some people out." On the issue of home mortgages, Senator Clinton says let's freeze rates for subprime borrowers, let's freeze foreclosures for subprime borrowers so we are not having families thrown out of their homes. Senator Obama says no that's the wrong approach. Again, somebody who understands the pain that middle class and working class families are going through right now in this country and somebody who doesn't.

These are critically important distinctions between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama. They say something critically important about the differences between the two of them and their approaches and the kind of presidents they'd be. I am asked and we are asked on these calls- why is it that Senator Obama is consistently unable to attract the votes of working class and middle class people and I have to say that middle class and working class people are following this race closely in Texas and Ohio and Pennsylvania, of course now in North Carolina and Indiana and they know that Senator Clinton is on their side, they know that Senator Clinton is a champion and fighter for them and they are voting accordingly.

This is a good substantive debate; we welcome the debate. It's unfortunate that Senator Obama has taking the position that he has but we are debating substance here. We are debating a substantive point that allows voters to draw a larger conclusion about these two candidates, about their priorities and about what they would really do to help hard-pressed, working class and middle class Americans. And with that I will turn it over to Phil.

Phil Singer: This is Phil. I would just add that I think it's clear that the Obama campaign is running scared right now. They've outspent our campaign by significant margins in both North Carolina and Indiana , they've predicated victories in both North Carolina and Indiana , and they're currently watching our candidate catch fire on the stump and generate a significant amount of momentum going into Election Day. Their response to Senator Obama's inability to connect with working class voters is now quickly turning into an attack response. And that is what we are seeing today, unfortunately, with this new advertisement that the Obama campaign is unveiling.

What makes this new advertisement particularly unfortunate is the way it makes misleading claims about Senator Clinton's position, and actually takes a line and uses a column about criticizing Senator McCain's approach to support the gas tax in order to criticize Senator Clinton. I am referring specifically to the line in this latest attack ad that they are putting out called "Boost," where the announcer says, "Experts say it will just boost oil industry profits," and it refers to a column in the New York Times of April 28th. In fact, the column that they are referring to is, where he writes, "The impression that Mr. McCain's tax talk is all about pandering is reinforced by his proposal for a summer gas tax holiday, a measure that would in fact do little to help consumers, although it would boost oil industry profits."

Mr. Krugman was referring to Senator McCain's approach. In fact, in that same column, Mr. Krugman acknowledges that Hillary's plan will not increase profits for the oil industry. So the Obama campaign has put up an ad attacking Senator Clinton's position because it's incapable of embracing Senator Obama's position in a way that actually resonates with voters and tells voters that he is on their side. So they are misquoting a column to make an attack on Senator Clinton.

It is exactly the kind of thing that Senator Obama and his campaign, it's exactly the kind of political tactic that Senator Obama and his campaign have criticized in the past. So it's rather ironic that going into the closing days of this very important election on Tuesday, you see the Obama campaign essentially throwing many of the principles that it has said have guided it throughout this process in order to score political points and attack Hillary. That's unfortunate, but that's the position Senator Obama finds himself in right now, because he is not connecting with working class voters, real people and we think that's a problem in this election but it's also going to be a problem for him going forward if he is the nominee.

When I saw this I got curious as to what the campaign might have put up on Fact Hub and as usual, they're on top of things with the information I'm looking for...

Obama Ad Misrepresents Krugman Quote To Attack Hillary

Sen. Obama has a new ad which claims that "experts" believe Hillary's plan for a gas tax holiday would "boost oil industry profits." Their citation is an April 28 column by Paul Krugman, which discusses Sen. McCain's plan, not Hillary's plan:

The impression that Mr. McCain's tax talk is all about pandering is reinforced by his proposal for a summer gas tax holiday -- a measure that would, in fact, do little to help consumers, although it would boost oil industry profits.

Hillary's plan differs from Sen. McCain's in that it is financed with a windfall profits tax on oil companies. Krugman, who does not support Hillary's plan, acknowledges that her plan will not increase profits for the oil industry.

Krugman adds: "Just to be clear: I don't regard this as a major issue. It's a one-time thing, not a matter of principle...Health care reform, on the other hand, could happen, and is very much a long-term issue -- so poisoning the well by in effect running against universality, as Obama has, is a much more serious breach."

It seems as though Sen. Obama was quite busy misrepresenting Hillary's proposals this morning, especially when it comes to her gas tax holiday.  Here's another one they had to set straight over at Fact Hub...

Fact Check: Hillary and the Windfall Profits Tax

Today on Meet the Press, Sen. Obama claimed Hillary was using the same windfall profits tax to pay for two proposals:

Now, Senator Clinton says that she's going to use the windfall profits tax to fill it. First of all, she's already said she's going to use that for something else, as I have, and that is to invest in clean energy and, and-- other important measures. So, that money she's already spending twice.

This is false and misleading.

To pay for the gas tax holiday, Hillary is calling for a windfall tax on the oil companies' 2008 profits. It's an immediate proposal. Hillary has never proposed a tax on 2008 profits previously.

Hillary would continue the windfall tax on 2009 profits and beyond, and that revenue would go to her strategic energy fund and for renewable energy.

I pointed this out Friday night and I think it bears repeating folks - Obama's attacking Hillary do divert our attention from the fact that he's offing us nothing to relieve our pain a the pump.  Not "nothing better" - nothing.  He's not even trying when it comes to addressing this short term matter of soaring gas prices.  They both have plans in place to address our long-term needs in terms of developing new resources of energy and increase the mileage our cars get etc. and rebuilding the middle class.  But when it comes to our short-term needs...

Crickets.

Frankly, I'm glad someone's listening to us - and trying to get something done rather than point fingers and attack the attempts of others to help us.  Not just in his stump speeches to his supporters, but in spending a lot of money to bring that message to the airwaves in Indiana.

Will he cling to these attacks and take them to the airwaves in North Carolina and other upcoming states?  Only time will tell I suppose.

HELP HILLARY FIGHT ON - CONTRIBUTE NOW!



Display:


Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 12)

She knows we're hurting and is trying to help us out.

And for that she gets ATTACKED?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:46:24 PM EST

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 11)

It's not a good way to help people out, and it might not be effective. That's the problem.

There are better ways of providing relief.


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Might not be effective. No, we can't. (2.00 / 3)

"It might not work" is not bold leadership.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:35:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Might not be effective. No, we can't. (2.00 / 4)

"It might not work" is not bold leadership.

It won't work - except for the oil companies.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:50:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Windfall profits tax works for me (2.00 / 3)

May save me money, may not. But I like it nonetheless.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Windfall profits tax works for me (2.00 / 1)

Make sure you share your happiness with one of the thousands who will lose their jobs over this.  Or, with one of those who may have to pay more than 30.00 for alignment adjustments due to potholes not getting repaired because the government will not have funds for highway repairs.

Remember, this has been tried before in Illinois and it did not work.  The consumers gained nothing and the oil comapnies made more money.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You didn't read her proposal (2.00 / 1)

She will only have a gas tax holiday if it is paid for by a windfall profits tax.

This is shifting the tax from drivers to the oil companies.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:06:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You didn't read her proposal (2.00 / 3)

Who will in turn shift it back to consumers by way of increasing the cost of gasoline.


by sorrodos on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:43:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You didn't read her proposal (2.00 / 3)

On top of the fact that it is all pie in the sky since Bush will veto any such tax on the windfall profits, anyway.


by oliver cromwell on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You didn't read her proposal (2.00 / 1)

Indeed.  And thats IF (a mighty if again) it made it past the likely GOP filibuster in the Senate.


by sorrodos on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You didn't read her proposal (none / 0)


by Twin Planets on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You didn't read her proposal (2.00 / 4)

Let me get this straight:

1) Gas tax "holiday" means the oil companies pocket a large % of the savings. (Don't believe me -- ask any  economist w/ "elite" skills: in a supply-constrained market, cost decreases are not passed along to the consumer. The extra $0.15 or so - the consumer portion of the current gas tax - will be mostly pocketed by Exxon, Chevron, etc.) Assume oil companies can only pocket 80% of the reduction and consumers get 20%. (This accounts for the mkt being not entirely supply-constrained.)
Scorecard: Big Oil $0.15/gallon savings, Consumer $0.03/gallon savings, Transportation Infrastructure -$9B/yr

2) Clinton gets Congress to pass windfall profits tax on oil companies.  Say she taxes them the equivalent of $0.18 per gallon sold now. Sen. Clinton wants to allocate the revenues to alt energy development.
Scorecard: Big Oil $0.18/gallon tax, Alt energy +$9B (for now)

Net result:
Scorecard: Big Oil $0.03 tax per gallon, Consumer $0.03 savings per gallon, Infrastructure -$9B, Alt energy +$9B.

I'm an elite product of Econ 101, and will gladly defer to expert opinion, but I haven't yet heard any that contradicts the totals above.

Analysis:

1) The gas tax is mostly passed on to consumers (inflexibility of demand + supply constraints), so why would a windfall profits tax be any different?  After all, the consumer isn't the direct payer of the gas tax -- it's the supplier(gas station) that pays.  The windfall profits tax would also be a supplier tax, and would just substitute for a per gallon tax.

2) What an ass-backwards way to, in net, divert resources from highway infrastructure to alt energy research.  The net savings for consumers, at $0.03/gallon, is pretty pathetic and equals about $6/yr in savings for the 1000 mi/month and 15 mpg driver.  My guess is that Congress would probably fight tooth-and-nail to preserve highway infrastructure projects, so the extra billions cut there would have to come from somewhere. I guess you could tax Big Oil some more, but most of this tax would be passed to consumers in higher gas prices....

3) A gas tax is a pretty damned efficient way to collect taxes. The revenuers check gas pump flow meters, require gas stations to keep accurate records of purchases, etc.  On the other hand, a windfall profits tax is based on accounting figures.... There are quite a few ways for a company to shift assets and expenses to lower taxable profits (and accounting profits as well!), and it wouldn't take long for Exxon, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, etc. to legally minimize their taxable income.

We've had 28 years (arguably minus 8) of voodoo economics, and I'm astounded that a Democrat is forwarding such a crap proposal.  I expect this from John "I don't know much about economics" McCain, but Sen. Clinton??


by Twin Planets on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Econ 101 - next is your Ayn Rand phase (none / 0)

Oil companies pocket the savings? No.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Econ 101 - next is your Ayn Rand phase (2.00 / 2)

You dispute that oil companies will lower gas prices less than $0.18?  Why?  If refinery output is constrained and near the level of demand, then there's no incentive for suppliers to pass along tax savings to customers.  Individual suppliers can't capture much more market share by dropping price (because they'll run out of product), so....  And if you aren't personally disputing the result, please point to an economist who disagrees.

While you're at it, tell me why a windfall profits tax would have a different outcome for consumers than the current per gallon tax. (I've outlined one difference, collection efficiency, which would, if the windfall profit tax was set to the same revenue level, quite possibly result in higher prices at the pump, even in the absence of the gas tax.)  And what about the other 9 months of the year, when consumers are paying the gas tax and the portion of the windfall profits tax that is passed on to them?

If you disagree with this, please elaborate.  I'm happy to eat my words, as long as they're thoughtfully and completely cooked.


by Twin Planets on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Put down the dog (none / 0)

Wharton School:

Man walking along a road in the countryside comes across a shepherd and a huge flock of sheep. Tells the shepherd, "I will bet you $100 against one of your sheep that I can tell you the exact number in this flock." The shepherd thinks it over; it's a big flock so he takes the bet. "973," says the man. The shepherd is astonished, because that is exactly right. Says "OK, I'm a man of my word, take an animal." Man picks one up and begins to walk away.

"Wait," cries the shepherd, "Let me have a chance to get even. Double or nothing that I can guess your exact occupation." Man says sure. "You are an economist for a government think tank," says the shepherd. "Amazing!" responds the man, "You are exactly right! But tell me, how did you deduce that?"

"Well," says the shepherd, "put down my dog and I will tell you."


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Put down the dog (2.00 / 2)

Nice joke.  So the economists are wrong about the gas tax?  

Sorry, but I've had enough of folksy anti-intellectualism: eight years of Reagan was more than enough.  Clinton's plan is crap and I have yet to hear a creditable defense.  Keep the jokes coming though.


by Twin Planets on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sometimes morale affects economy (none / 0)

Krugman said Clinton's plan at worst is pointless. But what economists are famous for is missing the morale, confidence, a gesture that increases trust in government. Gives people (wait for it...) hope. But hope that somebody out there is trying something. Not false hope - they know it may not work.

We need to take the FDR approach because there is so much work to do. I see analysis paralysis going on and it's not helping. Perfectionists would rather do nothing. Perfectionists are often less productive.


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sometimes morale affects economy (none / 0)

And FDR looked long term and asked the people to sacrifice for it.  I am willing to make sacrifices so that your children (I don't have any of my own) will have a cleaner, greener future.  Our grand parents did the same for us, sacrificed for our futures.  I think we our grand children the same.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sometimes morale affects economy (none / 0)

Lemmings do something too, but it's not a good policy alternative. I agree that there's a time for "go to the Moon in this decade" gestures, but the gas tax is no such thing. It comes across to a majority of Americans as a pandering bandaid (pandaid?) on a spurting artery.  

And last I looked, FDR wrote the definition of Democratic economic behavior -- he created millions of jobs.  The Clinton/McCain tax holiday would cost thousands of jobs in federal highway and mass transit projects. But no prob -- highways are an entitlement anyway....


by Twin Planets on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Taxes on oil companies cost jobs? (none / 0)

What party are you in?


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

What are they?


by TinaH1963 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:51:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"It might not work" (2.00 / 2)

this is why Obama is going to get his ass kicked over this issue.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:22:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "It might not work" (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, because being on side of the truth is such a bad thing.

I've explained to you why it won't work before, but lets go over it ONE MORE TIME.

If is actually introduced in Congress:

  1. It has to contain a windfall profits tax or it will drain revenue used for highway/infrastructure maintenance.
  2. The GOP will not let a windfall profits tax pass
  3. It will not likely survive a GOP filibuster in the Senate.
  4. If it somehow makes it past the Senate (extremely unlikely), Bush will most likely veto it.
  5. Once supporters in Congress see this, the only way to save HRC face on it is to pass McCain's version (that doesn't have the windfall profits tax) which then leads us to the big problem described above in number 1.

Additionally, this idea is just flawed to begin with, so even if it were to pass, it won't save people money.

The oil companies will simply pass the cost of the windfall profits tax onto consumers by increasing the price of gasoline.  Hillary may claim that her idea charges the FTC to prevent this from happening, but relying on a federal agency that is led by Bush appointees is about the stupidest thing a Democratic candidate could do right now, given their track record.


by sorrodos on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is in the reality-based community (none / 0)

Clinton is looking more and more like Bush Lite -- attacking the entire community of economists as "elitists." What anti-intellectual, anti-rational claptrap.


by Hudson on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

mor stupid (2.00 / 1)

i guess this means he's already getting his "ass kicked." Dumb, dumb, dumb.

A CBS/New York Times poll, conducted by telephone in the first three days of May, shows a majority of voters approving of Senator Obama's handling of his response to the lengthy media campaign, culminating in a stern denunciation of former pastor Rev. Jeremiah Wright, over comments the pastor has made.

On the "gas tax holiday," those polled seem to share the view of Sen. Obama, with 70% saying the idea is being used by Sens. Clinton and McCain for political gain, rather than to help average Americans. A majority, 49% against 45%, think the proposed summer hiatus on the 18.4-cent federal gasoline tax is a bad idea.


by bookish on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "It might not work" (none / 0)

Good policy is more important to me than bad policy that looks good.


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 8)

The problem is, as soon as the tax is eliminated, demand will go up, raising prices again.  Who knows, prices may even be higher than they were before, making it worse for working people.

Also, when the tax holiday expires on labor day, it will be like a tax raise-at least that's how the freepers will advertise it.


by mefck on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 1)

You know the advantage?

It focuses attention on the high profits that the oil companies have been making and the subsidies they NO LONGER need. It brings it into the conversation.  If I am correct, it ends up saving about 5% for the consumer, money that they could use.  But then people would pay attention to the numbers, and would say, hey, "why should the oil companies get subsidies and why should they get taxed at a low rate?


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:38:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 1)

Do you really think people don't know that the oil companies make obscene profits?  Is that really your analysis of this thorny problem, that nobody has shined a spotlight on this?  


by oliver cromwell on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:32:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 9)

hey Alegre

next time you talk to our buddy Howie wolfson

make sure he reads the whole article you linked that stated this about Hillary plans

"The Clinton twist is that she proposes paying for the revenue loss with an excess profits tax on oil companies. In one pocket, out the other. So it's pointless, not evil. But it is pointless, and disappointing."  

I am starting to like Paul krugeman he sure knows his stuff  


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:18:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 1)

Yes, Paul does know his stuff, and next time he talks about healthcare, make sure you pay attention!

For the government, it doesn't make a difference.  For the consumers, it makes a small difference.  But politically, it's really good, BECAUSE it brings the conversation to the subsidies and high profit (and low taxes) of the oil companies.  You know, if you want to eliminate subsidies for the oil companies, politically, that's a great place to start.  


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 3)

Why not simply spend the political capital to focus squarely on the oil company subsidies rather than this roundabout way?

Why? Because it is the height of political pandering season. You'd have a MUCH better argument if you went after the billions the oil companies get in subsidies and fighting them directly than having every economist against you in trying to suspend the gas tax.

Additionally, there is simply NO WAY that this will be enacted this summer anyway. So it comes down to nothing but pandering.


by Yalin on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:39:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

what part of POINTLESS and DISAPPOINTING don't you understand??  

Read Paul's whole article please  you will not save anything !!!!


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 1)

I feel like someone else stole your password ;)

Seriously though, I appreciate the fact that you call a spade, a spade.

Thanks Jerome.


by mefck on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

........I may have been right.


by mefck on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

finally exposed (none / 0)

as a mere tool with little to no understanding of where one walks...into dog dooooo.


by SovSov on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 3)

Thanks a lot, "Jerome ArNNstrong"

(not to by confused with Jerome Armstrong)

</end snark>

Seriously though, someone should ban this troll


by BGizzle on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:29:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

Five times, eh?
by Jay R on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

you spelled green collar incorrectly.


Samantha Powers was dead on- Hillary is a MONSTER. (5/23/08)
by Maize and Blue State on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She's trying to stop her own pain, not ours (2.00 / 2)

Ideal Hillary plan: Suspend the gas tax until the day after the election.  


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Something you said, alegre, needs repeating (none / 0)

over and over:

He says it wouldn't help us if they reduced the price of gas by 18 cents a gallon.  So I guess he figures it wouldn't hurt us if they doubled it then too right?

If suspending the gas tax for a period of time is such a horrible idea, then why don't we double, or triple it, so we can have some more of that good 'ole tax goodness?! Keeping poor folk from buying gas would force the price down, eventually, you know - supply and demand and all that.  


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:15:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Something you said, alegre, needs repeating (none / 0)

Speaking like a republican: "if taxes are good to have, why not have 80% taxes? or 100% taxes?".

The fact both extreme are wrong doesn't automatically mean moderation is wrong also.


by Aris Katsaris on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:52:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The argument being put forth by (none / 0)

Obama supporters on this thread is that suspending the gas tax temporarily will increase demand which will raise prices. If this is true, then the logical conclusion is that by raising taxes even further, demand will be curbed and prices will fall. You accuse me of speaking like a Republican?! Hillary has the populist position on this issue, i.e., give the people who need help the most - low income people, truckers - a break, paid for with a windfall profits tax,  while simultaneously working on long term fixes. Where is Obama's plan to provide relief to folks who can't even afford to drive to work - yes $25.00 matters! You have your "speaking like a Republican" backwards.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The argument being put forth by (none / 0)

Yes if you raise taxes, demand will fall, the price will adjust and it will cut into the oil companies profits.  This is why oil companies want lower taxes and fully support the gas tax holiday.


by catalysis on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 1)

You sound a lot like a Bush supporter I talked to circa 2002.  I was talking about Bush's repeated attempts to speak, and his failures at those attempts.  I listed off my favorites, ending with, "The problem with our economy is that 100% of our imports come from other countries."  The man said, "He's just breaking it down for common folk."

Now Hillary proposes an idea that will NOT help us, will hurt the budget, etc, and you say, "She's just trying to help the common folk."  This politician of the people schtick is so incredibly, transparently phony.  "A chicken in every pot!"


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you just respond to your own post? (none / 0)

   Thx for treating us all to another lengthy transcript of EVERY SINGLE WORD out of the Clinton campaign yesterday. That was breathtaking. really. Then you get a little too eager, or something, and reply to your own post, like you'd just read it, and we're shocked! to learn what horrible thing the world is doing Our Lady of Tax-Mercy. You know we can see your name at the bottom of the comment, right?


by Kordo on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:45:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 2)

Please, he's attacking her plan not her.  Grow up.


by Ellinorianne on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:52:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

Wow! You impress me in your ability not to be willing to see a side other than your own, and then to paint it is one "antithetical to liberals" because we all must certainly all believe in lockstep, don't you know.

Why aren't you running for President?  You seem to have all the answers.


by cjbardy on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:21:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Seriously...... (2.00 / 1)

Do you believe $20-$30 over the course of the summer is going to really help consumers?

Additionally, Obama tried this in the Illinois state senate and it failed because the oil companies just raised prices to offset the tax. So consumers got squeezed and the oil companies got their money.

Is that really worth losing $9 billion for our bridges, highways, and roads infrastructure care? Is it really worth it when we have crumbling bridges, literally, like the one in Minnesota?

Is it really worth it to pander like this? I think not.


by Yalin on Mon May 05, 2008 at 11:37:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Identitfy thief! (none / 0)

Jerome Arnnstrong


by SHIBAM8P on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who's hurting? (none / 0)

maybe only those dumb people with cars, I figure.

Us smart folks don't have nothing to worry about.

[and now I run. fear the snark, keep your bloodpressure down.].


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 12)

I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again until it gets through to folks.

And how many repetitions does it take to make your claim true?
"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:49:24 PM EST

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

Eleventy Gabillion (and she's halfway home).


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 11)


   can change the obvious fact. The gas tax is like a broken leg to the average consumer...and Clinton wants to fix it with a band-aid.

  Just doesn't work that way.


by southernman on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:49:46 PM EST

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 5)

And yet your guy's offering us nothing.  Or has he come up with something we don't know about yet?

BTW - did you bother to read the diary?  Because I did mention some of her other plans that would address this problem long term.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:54:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 6)

The truth of the matter, and none of the canddiates will admit it obviously, is that there is little to nothing that we can do to lower gas prices in the immediate future (this summer for instance).

This is like deciding to get a flu vaccine after you've already been exposed. Why not just be honest with the American people, instead of pandering?


by highgrade on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:02:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 4)

And yet your guy's offering us nothing.

I'll take "nothing" over "costly pandering" any day.

BTW - did you bother to read the diary?

Let's say "skimmed."  It looked dull and derivative.


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:03:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 2)

actually its not dull and boring I think its a good read I am a Huge fan of fiction

ever see that movie "big fish" ?


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:20:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (none / 0)

No, but I'll put it in the queue.

And if you're a fan of fiction, let me suggest (independent of whatever primary-based antipathies) diving into Hunter S. Thompson for the political variety, and Anton Chekhov and George R. R. Martin for the non-political.


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:34:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (none / 0)

thanks

I never read a Hunter S thompson always wanted to
Anything in particular you can rec?


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 0)

"Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail"  is good stuff, if semi-fiction.

For Chekhov, go for the short stories.


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (none / 0)

MOJO for the rec  

Thanks  


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (none / 0)

Fear and Loathing '72 is an absolutely fantastic read.  I've read it four times.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (none / 0)

"Kingdom of Fear" is a good way to get your HST feet wet, since it's mostly his later writings about the current, crappy state of affairs. But I second "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail" as another great way for a politics junkie to get in on the Gonzo goodness.
by Jay R on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:10:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 3)


   I always read your diaries Alegre.

  Her solutions to the problem would amount to the same effect as a band-aid on a broken leg.

  Just my opinion, given what I know.

 


by southernman on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (none / 0)

Obama worked for the stimulus package - that's something. This is extra stimulus/relief, and its not a good way of getting money back into people's pockets.


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 4)

Of course he's offering nothing. There's nothing to offer over the short-term. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing can fix the gas-price issue right away. Nothing can alleviate the suffering right away. After decades of mismanaged energy policy, your candidate comes up with a half-assed solution to the symptom of the actual problem, a cheap pander for a few extra votes, and now Obama has to go and do the same or else we blame the plight of the American people on him?

Oh, I can give you a non-solution, and let's see who's also offering non-solutions. A non-solution would be to mouth-off one of the largest oil producers in an act of shameful political posturing. Bush, Ahmadenijad, and Chavez have been doing it for a few years now. Senator Clinton just got in on the act.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:11:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Amount of Spin (2.00 / 6)

First, your diary makes a joke out of simple economics and seems to have been written in a fantasy world where George W. Bush willingly signs a bill increasing taxation against oil companies, who then don't just pass the extra cost onto us at the pump.

But, that aside, you do recognize that Obama is offering a middle class tax cut (you should, since Jerome himself decried it as a pander earlier today) and a shift of the overall tax burden towards the wealthy and off the middle class, right? And you do understand that this would in fact provide a veritable shit-ton more relief for overburdened families than any "gas tax holiday" gimmick so far presented, don't you?

Look, I respect zealously advocating for and defending Hillary, even though I'm still hoping that she calls a presser tomorrow to drop out. But to simply ignore common sense in presenting that defense makes it that much harder for readers to take you, and her, seriously. And this diary left common sense so quickly that I wonder how you could have possibly written it in earnest, considering how laughably illogical the premise and presentation are.

by Jay R on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Economic knowledge and logic (none / 0)

However basic, are like crucifixes and holy water to Hillary's vampire brigade.


by JJE on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Only saves Prius drivers $0.30. (none / 0)

Do any other drivers exist? Pointless! Why bother!


by catfish1 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:37:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its a good move on her part (2.00 / 8)

she is paying attention- someone else is not.
by linc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:50:38 PM EST

Re: Its a good move on her part (1.66 / 3)

Yes. She's really paying attention (finally) to the score board.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its a good move on her part (none / 0)

macmcd - TR abuse.  Uprated.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:14:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 8)

Alegre,  did you hear BO's latest insult?  He told the people of Indiana that "when you lose your job...you lose your dignity."


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:51:39 PM EST

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 6)

And that's when we all become "bitter"?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 2)

I hardly think that's an insult. I would say that people who can't support themselves have lost some dignity, although its not their fault, and they shouldn't be blamed.

It can be used to attack though - so it might have been something of a mistake.


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:08:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't get it (2.00 / 2)

how does losing one's job equate automatically to losing some dignity? Now, if someone lost their job and then didn't begin looking for another and instead decided to stay on unemployment or welfare (absent other mitigating circumstances), then I could see how that could translate into a loss of dignity, but I still don't, but it doesn't make it a true statement- it is still a matter of opinion.
by linc on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't get it (2.00 / 6)

I think, at this point, Obama could tell you the grass is green and the sky is blue and you would find a way to be outraged...

Ask someone who has lost their job... ask someone who cannot find a job after months of searching.  Ask someone who has to go to friends, relatives, or the state for help....


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the interpretation (2.00 / 3)

but that wasn't outrage. It was a comment, on the internet, about a stupid comment made by a politician. If you think that was outrage, I would suggest, for you, a bomb shelter for the real outrage.
by linc on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is this nonsense... (2.00 / 1)

...and the comparable stuff over at dKos just mass hysteria? Mob mentality? Are you folks gonna be capable of looking back on this in the future and seeing how ridiculous you all sound? Or will pride mixed with some sort of lingering self-consciousness make that impossible?

It's embarassing. You're all so Pavlovian now, you can probably count on a 30 point blood pressure increase at the very mention of the name "Obama." And for what?

Oh well... maybe you all are providing material for somebody's social psychology term paper some where. At least that might lead to something worthwhile for someone.


by odum on Mon May 05, 2008 at 07:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I (none / 0)

did not make those comments.  Someone responded to a rather blah comment by me and told me to watch the outrage.  Maybe you should take some of your own intimated advice?


by linc on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't get it (2.00 / 4)

Being told that some kid in Malaysia can do your job for $2/day certainly hurts a persons dignity, as does standing in an unemployment line while Republicans use you as an example of our horrible welfare state.      


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Again (2.00 / 1)

only if you believe it to be so- dignity is personal, an opinion about oneself- it is certainly not something for politicians to speculate on... Why is Obama always speculating on the personal self-esteem and outlook of working class America? Its kind of weird... is this his attempt at relating?
by linc on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again (2.00 / 5)

Anytime you make a generalization, there will be many exceptions.  But I don't think the idea that losing your job could hurt your self-respect is too far fetched.  Perhaps pride would have been a better word.    

But I'm not sure why we're so caught up trying to create insults by nitpicking candidates' words, rather than getting at what they're saying they want to do, which in this case, I'm guessing (haven't read the comment, in context), is to end tax breaks for companies that outsource and/or to reinvest in creating a greener economy.  The GOP has pursued policies that treat people's jobs like a price to be paid for lower overall market costs.  While free trade may be beneficial in lowering costs, overall, it's a very dehumanizing policy when you consider its effects on real people, some of whom lose their jobs or work harder for less.  

So I have no problem with pointing out that some have their dignity taken.  Relating policies to issues of honor, pride, and dignity is an effective way of making it about people rather than numbers.    


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, my husband lost his job back during (2.00 / 4)

the Reagan Administration and, although he has an MS, for three years he mowed lawns, helped move furniture and everything he could posibly do to help feed our family.  He damned sure did NOT lose his dignity.  It is completely assinine and insensitive to suggest that he did.  He had way more dignity mowing lawns than Obama did have writing letters to help his friends get public funds to build low cost housing that then went bankrupt so the money was gone into the pockets of Rezko, Davis, et al and the people were left with no housing.  The audacity of saying that the loss of a job takes away your dignity.  Being buddies with a slum lord pretty much answers the question of dignity.  The reason Sen. Obama doesn't understand about dignity is because he does not even understand the concept!!!!!!!!


by macmcd on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, my husband lost his job back during (1.66 / 6)

MOJO FOR SNARK

I am lauging and shot milk out my nose

that was classic

"Sen. Obama doesn't understand about dignity is because he does not even understand the concept!!!!!!!!"

lol hahahaha lmao  ahhhhhhh


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:33:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Arrogance is a certain invitation (none / 0)

to negative Karma.  Those of us who have honestly lived with dignity through abundant times and times of need feel sorry for those of you who set yourselves up for humiliation when your times come.  And the down times always come.


by macmcd on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, my husband lost his job back during (1.60 / 5)

Yeah, how could someone like "him" understand about dignity, right?

He's just so uppity, right?


by Brannon on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:57:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 6)

This is so absurd!  Now we are going to analyze 'dignity' for three days???  You know, if I didn't know better, I would have to conclude that you Hillary supporters are acting exactly like the pundits define her most popular demographic:  uneducated or just plain dumb!
If you can't come up with something better to aplaud your 'girl' then just don't comment, okay?  It just makes you look bad
by mariannie on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:18:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 1)

ouch!!!
wow you have the courage to say that on a Alegre thread?!!

screw Iron MAN  you are the new blockbuster hero of the weekend


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

In other news, Hillary says, "When you lose your job, you should throw a party, cause it's awesome.  I understand you!"


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:30:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 5)

Thanks for your diary. It's time we started praising the person in this race who is offering solutions--Hillary Clinton. The silence from the Obama camp is deafaning on this issue, critizising the position with absoutley no way to fix the problem themselves. I'm glad that HILLARY is once again fighting for America's middle class.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:51:45 PM EST

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 6)

What good is a solution if it is poor and hurts the economy and Americans?


by Bobby Obama on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What? (2.00 / 1)

How exactly, would it hurt the economy and Americans? Did Goolsby tell you that?
by linc on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (2.00 / 3)

It hurts the economy when we use more gas due to the new subsidized price and we end up with a new price, higher price, eliminating any good from the initial subsidy.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:14:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (none / 0)

Removing a tax is not a subsidy, but rather removing a tax elimates the deadweight loss of economic surplus caused by it.


by Neglected Duty on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (2.00 / 3)

It might cause prices to go up to pre tax levels, without the tax, causing a spike when the tax comes back into effect.

Also, the Goolsby thing is a horrible, false scandal. The memo that everyone quoted has been called inaccurate by the Canadians.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/ the_facts_about_nafta-gate.html


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I was referencing (2.00 / 2)

Goolsby as the complete, die-hard neo-liberal economist, something that is completely counter to populism and populist appeal- not NAFTAgate.
by linc on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:22:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Won't Even be President This Summer! (none / 0)

so how can John McCain or Hillary really Implement this idea into FACT.. they can't!  It is a gimmick that they cannot produce on...  That is sad!


by bacalove on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:46:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 3)

I wouldn't mind it so much if he were just silent on this whole thing.  But he's attacking Hillary on the air while offering us nothing - nada - zip - zilch as an alternative.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:57:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (2.00 / 7)

Of course he's not silent on the issue.  Its terrible public policy, and not a single respected economist has supported it.  Citing facthub and Howard Wolfson just makes it even more obvious that there is no real support for this ridiculous proposal.  

Being silent on a policy that is obviously a poor idea is never a good idea, just look at the Iraq War.


by KevinT on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:04:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Setting the Record Straight on the Gas Tax (none / 0)

The alternative is to tack on however much voters would save into a broadbased tax cut or such.

You're saying that Obama is weaker because he isn't offering relief - see middle class tax cut. He's not proposing it NOW because it wouldn't go through Congress.


by Falsehood on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]