Barack Obama on Meet The Press

Here's a thread to discuss Barack on Meet The Press. Anyone watching?

Update [2008-5-4 13:13:13 by Todd Beeton]:I'd have to say in general it was a more confident MTP interview than he gave in November, but left much to be desired. For example, what consequences exactly would he impose against Iran if they attacked Israel. He said nothing is off the table and he said there would be consequences but Hillary using her "obliterate" language was over the line and Bush-like. Yet his answer on this was a non-answer. Barack has a tendency to accuse Hillary of being too hawkish when it comes to foreign policy (unless it's he who's being hawkish in which case it's OK, I guess) but then when you dig deeper into his real intentions, he's not that far off of Hillary's position or he evolves closer to her position, it's just she's willing to say it, he's not.

Also, he said he has no intention of letting anyone question his patriotism, yet there is an entire rightwing anti-Obama campaign based entirely on this notion, and it's hardly a whisper campaign, it's on FoxNews every night. So what is Obama doing to counter that? It's actually not enough to dismiss this stuff as mere "distractions" as he usually likes to do. He spoke eloquently today about his values and his story and how Michelle is the product of the American dream that he prizes and I think that's a good start, but I'm not really seeing the tough confrontation of this unpatriotic meme that he seemed to promise in his interview. So far, just as he did with the Wright situation, he seems downright Kerry-esque in his willingness to sit back and let others define him without response.



Display:


Re: It was too soft for me.. (1.75 / 8)

I just caught a small snippet and was struck by how Obama divides topics when it benefits him.

  • I denounced the words, not the man (about Wright)
  • My affiliation is with the church, not the pastor.

He also gave a cynical answer wrt. why he denounced so late -- "politics 101 in national politics may require you to tear the bandaid off quick" (I guess he's admitting his now famous "race speech" was just a band-aid?) -- bottom-line, this is a man that will NEVER admit a mistake.

Russert followed up with "doesn't this reflect badly on your judgement"? Which was good. But Obama responded with -- "ah, you see you have to look at the overall context of my life's work, as a community organizer, etc." which I found strange, because I think he just gave away the entire reason for his candidacy -- for months now, he has been bashing McCain and Clinton on their lack of judgement on a SINGLE issue (the Iraq authorization vote), and he clearly did not think that such contextual reasoning applied to his claims about them, but now wants others to give him a pass?

I would have watched more.. but the next question was about Obama's campaign rhetoric. Clip of him talking about "my opponents are talking about me".  I thought Russert would ask the question that others in the media have pointed out -- that this has been blatantly FALSE this past week -- local stations here have even had their speeches running back to back and it's really funny to see Obama's clips where he's talking like that, and then they switch to Clinton -- and she's talking about the gas tax or jobs/economy or something else. But Russert, instead of asking him about it says "So you are just preparing for the fall campaign now?"

Sheesh. Could anyone be more "in the tank"?

You can possibly guess that judgement and character issues matter a lot to me. I don't find Obama fit to be President for all his protestations. Hillary has a lot to recommend her, but unfortunately, time and the dreaded "math" seems to be against her. I seriously am considering voting for McCain, but don't know if I'll be able to. I definitely will not be voting for Obama. Sigh.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:26:24 AM EST

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 3)

Yeah.. I'm thinking the same. My DNA, and better half might rebel though. :-) LOL.

To tell you the truth -- I've always voted Democratic -- but am now considering myself Independent (it happened when my Senators endorsed for Obama -- it's a long story I won't go into now).

The Wright issue alone does not bother me per se. In fact, I think Obama is dealing with it as well as he can -- as a politician w/ his meagre exprience would or should.

What has really made me question my love for the Democratic party and its ideals is what I have seen happen this primary season to the Clintons (whose legacy has been dragged through the mud), to a woman (I won't go into that here but you, as a Democrat should know what I speak of), to voters in MI and FL (do you want me to provide links?), and to the old and working class Americans (in the caucus process).

I'm not saying I'll find a home in RedState. I possibly will not. As I said, this has been an unsettling past couple of months for me -- and has made me question a lot of my assumptions.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:41:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 2)

Much of that is the unfortunate process of a party primary. As an Independent, it's not surprising that you'd find some of the mechanics of a party primary to be aggravating. MI/FL, caucuses, intra-party dogfights, identity politics, etc. are reflections of party rules and party fights and not reflective of either candidate's vision or policies. I'm an Obama supporter and I understand your frustration at those things. I've been frustrated with them too, which is why I wish this thing would end. I'd rather see either Obama win NC and IN and put an effective end to this thing, or Clinton win NC and force the air out of the Obama balloon. Maybe I'm just impatient but I want to get on to the general election. Both Clinton and Obama are miles ahead of McCain.


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amen to that.. (none / 0)


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

as an indy myself, it is not just the primary politics that i find distastful but the posturing and pandering for votes in the general as well.

therefore it is simple for me to get behind the candidate that has been "in-bedded" in washington politics for the least amount of time. i think that only those who are happy with the way the system is not working would see that as a liability.


by citizendave on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 1)

" this has been an unsettling past couple of months for me -- and has made me question a lot of my assumptions."

I will totally respect your decision if you leave the Democratic party after all the serious issues that have been thrust into our faces during this primary season. I share your sentiments.

If there were a viable third party to join, I might do that as well, after being an extremely active Democrat all my life. The unethical, hateful, and misogynistic practices I have seen are unacceptable to me.


by 07rescue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 0)

Voting for John McCain leads to flag-draped coffins, parent-less children, and billions of US tax dollars going to build infrastructure in Iraq that is blown up the week after it is built.

But that's okay because some people got their feelings hurt during a primary battle? Priorities, people, please. It isn't about you.


by Brannon on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

Well said. But as an American -- you have to admit "if you broke it, you own it". I think it is parochial and extremely selfish to leave Iraq hastily -- even Senator Obama has begun to realize that and his leave behind projections have been mounting. Guess what his commitment is now (regardless of how you parse the term 'combat-level brigades')? BTW, purely as an aside, do you know how many troops we have in Korea, Bamberg or Aviano? :-)


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:26:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 1)

Do you know how many American troops have died as a result of hostile action in Korea, Bamberg, and Aviano?
 
by Frood on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 0)

To make my point clear, I mean since the end of the Korean War or WWII, as appropriate for the location.

We were never bogged down in counter-insurgecy actions in Germany, Italy, or Korea (or Japan, for that matter).  There isn't even a remote similarity between the situations in those countries and the current situation in Iraq.


by Frood on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

Look. I take your point. But debating how the pull-out should happen -- when this particular war has been quite different from others because it speaks to our moral obligations will have to wait for another time. To grant him credit, Obama actually gets the moral argument -- which is part of the reason I think he has been shifting his position  over the past several months over the precise nature of troop withdrawals -- and how certain scenarios have now begun to be labelled as "best-case". I truly suspect that where we end up will not make you happy -- even under an Obama Presidency.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

when this particular war has been quite different from others because it speaks to our moral obligations will have to wait for another time.

Now's as good a time as any, so what's that moral argument? That once a country invades another, it has a moral obligation to stay there?  Is that the opinion of the Iraqi people?
by clad on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

I'm sorry I don't have more time today -- but I recommend you find someone in the service who has done tours to Iraq and talk to them.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

An occupying country has no moral authority - this pottery barn nonsense of "you break it you bought it" doesn't fly with me, because if you are walking around a store breaking crap, then you're likely going to be asked to leave.  The US invaded a sovereign state, it doesn't have the moral authority to stay there.  Your argument is completely without merit, from a moral standpoint.

How many suicide bombing were there in Iraq before the US invaded?  


by clad on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Neither party seems to understand my concerns (2.00 / 0)

Yes. It's the ethical, moral issues that have been thrust forth in this campaign (not just about women, but about elderly and working class Americans that are not represented well in our caucus process, the cavalier way with which the DNC has treated MI/FL voters, and AA voters -- God knows how they must feel right now) that makes me disenchanted with the Dems. OTOH, I don't find there's much in the Republican party to admire either (other than occasional humor and strategic ruthlessness).

Maybe we should put up a website and start "The Third Party" -- and evolve its platform. LOL.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Third party: Jacksonian Dems (none / 0)

I like this idea of the Jacksonian-type Dems. People who believe in hard work paying off. In seeing somebody scrap for something.

There's a style issue here: so many Dems seem to prefer the gentle, cerebral style to that of a strong, commanding one.


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

i've yet seen any solid proof of any misogynistic practices on the behalf of the Obama team. Unless you consider the hysterical remark to be misogynist. Then again, I've seen us "obamabots" been called hysterical on these pages before.

The race baiting has been an overt problem however.


!
by alex100 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

I'm generally pretty aware of misogyny, and my wife certainly is, and I honestly just haven't been aware of that much of it this primary.  Maybe it's really subtle or I'm out of the loop, but I tend to think people see misogyny where they want to, rather than where it actually is.

For what it's worth, I think there's been less racism in the race than most people think too -- other than Bill's dismissal of the SC win, nothing has really bothered me (people calling the 3am ad racist always struck me as absurd).

I think playing the role of the victim is a very easy road to go down, so people look for any excuse they can.


by ChrisKaty on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Doesn't feel like my party (2.00 / 1)

It is troubling. Nancy Pelosi has said: a Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton unity ticket is a bad idea; she is against a windfall profits tax on oil companies for a gas tax holiday.

What has happened to her?


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't feel like my party (2.00 / 2)

She recognizes a dumb idea when she sees one?  Like every economist who's commented on the Clinton plan from the right or the left?

Paul Krugman, who's about as staunch a Hillary-supporter and Obama-detractor as you'll find anywhere, says Hillary's plan is pointless.  That oughta tell you something.


by Frood on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How is windfall profits tax dumb? (2.00 / 1)

They've said it won't save consumers money. But they haven't said it'd dumb to windfall profits tax the companies.


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

Its just that her gas tax holiday (can we get t-shirts) is a dumb idea and a pander. States have tried it and it did nothing to the gas price but lead to budget shortfalls. Its election year trickery.


by IowaMike on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a way to get windfall profits tax passed (2.00 / 1)

I don't think windfall profits tax is a pander.


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so? (none / 0)

the economist who thinks it a good idea is, whom again?


by IowaMike on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a way to get windfall profits tax passed (none / 0)

and, the gas holiday is...


by IowaMike on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, it's a way to get it passed (none / 0)

Here's the deal: constituents will pressure their congressmen to vote for this. It's attached to a windfall profits tax. Republicans will be pressured to vote for it.

Constituents are not in the dark - one driver in Indiana was quoted saying it may not work but it's worth a try. And who is against a windfall profits tax?


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, it's a way to get it passed (none / 0)

And who is against a windfall profits tax?

George W. Bush.  Probably McCain.  No Democrats are against it.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Budget shortfalls - so they didn't tax oil compani (2.00 / 1)

s.

That the states had budget shortfalls shows they didn't provide a means to pay for the gas tax holiday. She said she wouldn't have a holiday unless the windfall profits tax were passed.


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so? (none / 0)

the economist who thinks it a good idea is, whom again?


by IowaMike on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so? (none / 0)

You really need to listen to Hillary's entire answer to these questions.  She clearly explains the overall plan for short-term and long-term. It makes a lot of sense.


by JavaCityPal on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so? (none / 0)

nice dodge. can't answer it, can't pass it, its all talk.


by IowaMike on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (2.00 / 0)

Funny i was dumb when BO voted for it three times.

david


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:29:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

Dude,

This is a rerun insulting me.  This is number two.  Look it is not my fault i make what 5x what you do.  It is not my fault you have such a low view of yourself that you get off on insulting others.  So try this.  Grow up.  You act like a child.

As for BO.  It is called being a hypocrite.  When BO favors a gas holiday it is ok.  When HRC supports it it is pandering.

Look i am sorry you get off on calling people dumb.  Get out of your mom's basement.  Maybe if you worked a little harded you could turn things around.

There are always small people like you who think if they insult others it will take the pain off how things have not worked out.

david


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

Well in my experience people who go around insulting everyone have something to hide.

My guess is you could use a little extra cash and Rob i would like to help you.  But i am picking about who i work with and try not to work with the lowest common element.

david


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

Dude you are funny.

Tell me what does and internet spel


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

Dude you are funny.

Tell me what does and internet spelling policeman make a year.  I mean clear after taxes.  Do you find this job fulfilling?  Lots of indirect benefits.  Do you get a uniform?  Do you have a bike that you peddle around correcting everyone's spelling?  

I will consider using spell check.  What will you do to stop being a prick?  Maybe you could see some professional help.  Some one to work with you on your personality disorder.  Maybe with some meds you could get over you issues being a spelling policeman.

Best of luck to you.  

dg


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

And do you write tickets.  Do i have to pay a fine.  

Does you mom and to mail these for you.  Does she let you out of the house.I can recommend someone for you and you illness.  

Keep up you posts.  You seem bitter and seme to cling to you need to be a spelling policeman.

I could help you from being an ass but you would need more than just one person to help you.

david


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one is saying that per se.... (none / 0)

I have taken care of this.

Let me know how it goes.

dg


by giusd on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How is windfall profits tax dumb? (none / 0)

It would pretty obviously be dumb.

The supply of oil is constant; oil companies are already selling everything they can.  If the tax on gasoline is reduced, oil companies will simply raise their prices so that the price at the pump remains the same as before.  (There's no incentive to go lower, because they're already selling all the gas they produce at the current price.)

So the savings from lowering the gas tax will go straight into the pockets of the oil companies -- the same oil companies that are paying for the scheme with a new windfall profits tax.  That's the very definition of pointless.

It actually makes things worse, because it gives the impression that you're being tough on the oil companies when in fact you're doing no such thing.


by Frood on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Doesn't feel like my party (none / 0)

Well, I'm a Democrat and I think a unity ticket is a bad idea.  I also don't support a windfall tax on gas companies -- though I do think that we should minimize incentives and tax breaks to them.


by ChrisKaty on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (1.66 / 6)

Russert followed up with "doesn't this reflect badly on your judgement"? Which was good.

Question: Doesn't Hillary's continuing marriage to an unfaithful serial adulterer like Bill also reflect badly on her judgement?

Or is marrying someone less significant than having them for your pastor? Why aren't you challenging her on her poor judgement?


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What an idiotic comment. (2.00 / 3)

Love and marriage are different:

a) Bill wasn't an adulterer when she married him, but Wright was preaching hateful sermons when Obama chose him.

b) Divorce is the dissolution of a solemn vow made before one's God, one's community, and the law.   Church is a choice.

c) Adultery is not the same as hate spewed to 8000 people including children who walk out of there on Sundays believing the white man is trying to kill them.


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:53:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an idiotic comment. (2.00 / 1)

"Church is a choice."  Weird, I thought I chose to marry my wife.  


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an idiotic comment. (2.00 / 2)

Weird, I thought I chose to marry my wife.
That's just what she wants you to think.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an idiotic comment. (none / 0)

mojo'd for a great comment and some humor on this thread - much needed!!


by colebiancardi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mojo is sort of irrelevant to me... (none / 0)

...'cause I'm not allowed to rate anything anyway.  Apparently, I was bad.  Or something.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an idiotic comment. (none / 0)

Agreed, Mojo for humor.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you. (2.00 / 2)

You said it well. Some people do not get basic principles involved in the separation of church and state, between state and federal powers, or the differences and nuances between personal and political decisions. If we as Americans require the Federal Government to stay away from peeking into our homes, it is a matter of respect that we do NOT seek to peek into the President's bedroom. I know in this media driven American-Idol culture we salivate over such titillating details and faint before candidate speeches, but when all is said and done -- these matters will not drive how our daily lives will run tomorrow, or decide the price of gas or how much you pay for health-care in the next four years.

Judgement and associations with people that do not believe in our system of law and government, in so far as much as these associations reflect upon a candidate's own views and actions toward democratic processes (caucus tactics, counting of votes, means to achieve goals), toward principles of unity (actual not stated) on the other hand -- should matter a great deal.  


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:10:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you. (2.00 / 1)

"Some people do not get basic principles involved in the separation of church and state"

Yes, this separation is the thing that should keep us away from investigating a person's religious connections -- you know, connections like Wright.

"it is a matter of respect that we do NOT seek to peek into the President's bedroom"

It's the President's Oval Office I'm concerned with, and as a feminist with any man's sexual exploitation of his female underlings.

But am sure any intern would have felt comfortable saying No to the most powerful man in the world, so there's no concern there.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good points. (none / 0)

Obama's membership in TUCC does not bother me. Read what I said.

I'll stand by my earlier statement about President Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Not engaging. Sorry.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Monica was a plant by Newt Gingrich (none / 0)

and his ally Linda Tripp.  You didn't know that?   Monica went gunning for Clinton as they knew he had certain weaknesses.   More dirty Rep tactics.  


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Conspiracy-theorists-in-arms (none / 0)

It looks like Wright isn't alone in having wild, unproved accusations about government officials.

I feel safe ignoring your arguments, if you start to excuse Bill's behavior on account of him being set up.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ever heard the phrase "make love, (none / 0)

not war"?   Well then, don't try to compare making love (which is what people do when they have sex) with making hate (which is what people do when they spout hateful lies about members of another race).


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What do hippies have to do with this? (none / 0)

Your argument is unintelligable.

We're talking about guilt-by-association and judgement in willingly associating with someone who is problematic here, not love vs. war.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A woman staying with her cheating (none / 0)

man is now "associating with someone who is problematic."

That's the norm, buddy, in case you haven't noticed.  

And if you gave this a moment's thought you'd realize that If she hadn't stayed with him, she would've been destroyed by those who called her disloyal and castrating.  

You see, it's the classic "double bind" in which women find themselves:  madonna or whore, weakling or ball-buster.   Doesn't seem to be a middle ground, when there's a cadre of men out there waiting to hate you for something, anything.


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A woman staying with her cheating (none / 0)

A woman staying with her cheating man is now "associating with someone who is problematic."

It's certainly not exactly my image of modern-day feminism to stand by your husband while he's boinking his concubines.

"if she hadn't stayed with him, she would've been destroyed by those who called her disloyal and castrating."

Bullshit. The sort of men who'd say something like that are in the extreme minority. I have no doubt some of them exist, but personally I don't know a single person who'd condemn a cheated wife for filing for divorce.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And why should anyone care what (none / 0)

YOUR image of modern-day feminism is?  Fact is, both men and women stay with cheating spouses when they love the person.

As I said earlier in a different context, "make love, not war" means to be forgiving and generous and hopeful, not hateful and vindictive and despairing.

All these values -- which Obama pretends to espouse -- are actually qualities of Hillary.  It is Obama and his preacher (who hates), Obama's supporters (who would ask Hillary to be vindictive toward Bill), and Obama's campaign (who emphasize the bad about American rather than the good), who violate those principles.


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How is that any different? (none / 0)

On this very forum, the same people who were criticizing Obama for associating with Wright in the first place are now criticizing him for cutting the guy loose.

It's not a "double bind" for just women.  It goes for all significant bonds between people, be it marriage, friendship, family, or choice of religious advisor.

People (or shall we say "Republicans") are going to find fault with their enemies no matter what.  In the end, you have to go with what's best by your moral guidelines and by what's best for you.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an idiotic comment. (2.00 / 2)

While I think the comment is out of bounds, I don't think you've responded in a way that does Clinton any good. People have deeply personal reasons for choosing their spouse or their church. We need to get away from these kinds of accusations, period. Please stop this crap.


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

Redstate is calling to you.
Go to the right...not too far for people who continually parrot the right wing narrative.
by Jjc2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

dKos needs you (2.00 / 1)

You are lost without your friends there.


by o2befree on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Last I checked... (none / 0)

We're all still Democrats, and this is a site for Democrats... NOT just Clinton supporters.

You can't deny that most of the accusations about Wright are the kinds of smears that have been the part and parcel trademarks of Republicans since the Lee Atwater days.

Guilt by association should not be how we choose our nominees.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama showed Wright the door (none / 0)

Obama kicked this Wright idiot to the curb. He's a loser and drag on the Campaign.

Wright smeared himself, pretty effectively I might add.


by o2befree on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:09:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 1)

Hillary supporter Rep. Charles Rangel was just on CNN denouncing the media's sick obsession with Wright. He  cited the outrageous things said by preachers who openly campaign for Republicans which are ignored by the media.

Democrats who obsess about Wright are indeed carrying the GOP's filthy water. I've had my issues with Rangel over the years, but at least he isn't one of them.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 2)

Because I look at the overall context of the situation.

Sure I questioned Hillary's judgement on the Iraq vote. But you know what -- back then in 2002 -- I had raging debates with people in DC, and I must say  given my background I had access to some of the same intel they had, and I actually came down FOR the war, even though it was a very difficult decision for me given my positions on international law and pre-emptive strikes and suspected what that vote could lead to. In short, I found Sen. Obama's framing of this issue -- reflected poorly on his ability to see the overall context of situations -- esp. when it involves national intelligence or our nation's strategic and security interests. To summarize, I do question some of Hillary's judgements as I do Senator Obama's.

As to her relationship with Bill -- you should be ashamed of saying that, as a Democrat! I will not choose to engage you on that issue any more than I will engage Republicans on Monica Lewinsky.

And at some point -- Obama supporters have to learn to start making arguments in "favor" of their candidate. The fact that they choose to escalate every conversation by attacking their opponent may perhaps make them feel good, but it sure isn't going to win him the GE, because it's just going to turn people like me OFF.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:58:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 3)

I agree that going after Hillary re: Bill and adultery is out of bounds. But I think going after Obama re: Wright is equally out of bounds. They are both deeply personal choices that reflect much more than political expediency or political values. Let the Republicans throw their McCarthyite guilt-by-association charges around. We should not aid or abet it.


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The attempt to draw a parallel (none / 0)

between Wright and Lewinsky is just ridiculous.   It concerned two people and the relationship was private -- well until Monica blabbed it which was all PLANNED IN ADVANCE by Lewinsky and Linda Tripp who was a Newt Gingrich operative.  

There is no parallel here.   In fact, back in my day people said "Make love, not war" and I still believe that.   So this is a case of "Make love, not hate."  

Big difference between love and hate, people!  Are you Obama people truly incapable of seeing that?


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

"As to her relationship with Bill -- you should be ashamed of saying that, as a Democrat!"

Actually I'm not an American citizen, so I can't be a Democrat.

And if you're not ashamed of bashing Obama because of his poor judgement on Wright, then I'm certainly not ashamed of bashing Hillary because of her poor judgement on Bill.

"it sure isn't going to win him the GE, because it's just going to turn people like me OFF."

You already said you're not voting for Obama anyway, so honestly why should I care about turning people like you off?

You've refused to even discuss Hillary's poor judgement on her relationships, but are holding Barack's personal relationships against him. That makes you a hypocrite in my book.

But honestly the part I hate most about the Clintons is that it was during their watch that the first genocide in Europe since WW2 took place, via their inaction in Bosnia. With Russia surging and Albanian separatism rising, I'm worried that the next 8 years of the Clintons will be as bad as the previous 8 years for the Balkans.


by Aris Katsaris on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

Well for one thing ... Bill Clinton is not out there extolling the virtues of adultery and defiantly dismissing "faithful America", like the Reverend Wright unappologetically extols his views on America.

Secondly, Hillary did not give a speech recognizing her husband's transgressions in the larger context of sex relations, as Obama did over race relations.  

I'm sure she would simply denounce Bill's behavior and anyone who acted similarly, and wouldn't try and turn the conversation to the "larger context" like Obama did to take the focus off of his judgement failings.


by PracticalMagic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

dKos is the place for you (2.00 / 1)

Obama has a soft spot in his heart for this particular church -- but isn't this the church that sold racist sermons online?

Sound's like you have a blind spot for Obama, and don't want the support of others who may disagree.


by o2befree on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: dKos is the place for you (2.00 / 0)

Do you know much about the black church? Here's a hint: while few pastors match the rhetoric of Rev. Wright, most black church sermons would shock the daylights out of average white churchgoers. Whites tend to think of the black church as all song and dance - like James Brown in Blues Brothers. But the black church has historically been a home of racial solidarity and space for conflating spiritual longing with social values.


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Newsweek: Oprah left Wright's church (2.00 / 3)

All evil powerful men are charismatic. I am really worried about the easily-charmed Obama going head-to-head with Ahmenidijad, even being in a room with Achmed Chalabi.

Oprah left Wright's church because she saw he was out of the mainstream and it would hurt her chances.


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not sure... (none / 0)

I don't think of Dick Cheney as particularly charismatic, but he's certainly evil and powerful.

"Easily charmed."  You sound like you're saying that Obama is a child or callow.  It's insulting.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 2)

The only ones to use "media bias" as a crutch more than Hillary and her people are the wingnuts.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

Hi Boston,

I don't have any doubt that Massachusetts won't go for the Dem this fall, but what's with the polls showing Obama tied with McCain there? Is that conceivable given what you know?


by OrangeFur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 3)

I am from MA and I can maybe tell you why Obama is tied with McCain and MA could go red in the fall.

Patrick.  Same message as Obama, same campaign as Obama, same manager as Obama(Axelrod).  We were the test grounds for an Obama campaign.  

MA voted in Patrick with a 25% lead over Healy.  We bought his message, hook, line & sinker(change you can believe in) and now look what we have.  Patrick is busing writing his book and his casino plot tanked.

he has done nothing for MA.

So, that is why MA went double digits for Hillary, despite the endorsements of Kerry, Kennedy & Patrick.  

We've already had the change we can believe in and it didn't do a damn thing.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (2.00 / 1)

Actually I won't be too sure. MA seems competitive right now -- but I think if Obama gets the nod, MA will come around (eventually but perhaps not without a fight).

Why do I think this? First, we are solidly democratic -- and I don't think McCain communicates like Reagan or Bill Weld (have you looked at the 72 electoral map -- even McGovern carried this state :-).

But if McCain picks Romney as VP, he will have a real chance. Even w/out that, given the republican party machine here, if Obama is the nominee he will be forced to spend resources here.. but thankfully -- his supporters will keep writing those checks. If Clinton campains here for Obama, that would help as well.

Deval hurts more than helps right now, and a lot has been said about the similarity of his campaign to Obama's. But the GE is a long ways away, and I don't expect Obama's association(s) with Deval will matter much in a Presidential election. The latter seems to be self-destructing slowly here.

What I think really matters is the behavior of the Obama camp and its supporters/surrogates -- esp. toward the Clinton camp (a lot of my friends who are more true-blue than me abhor his caucus tactics and care a lot about MI/FL -- w/out which several of them view Obama's nomination as illegitimate). Certainly the DNC and even Edwards and Kerry are not making any new friends here.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

having to spend (2.00 / 1)

resources in MA is troubling news indeed


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

wrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrig htwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwr ightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwright wrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrig htwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwr ightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwright wrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrightwrig htwrightwright

Any other topics facing the country?  Any?


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama on MTP (none / 0)

I watched Obama on Meet the Press this morning, and as always, I tried very hard to find a reason to like the guy -- but this appearance just reinforced my belief that Hillary is the better candidate.

On the food crisis, Obama gave a very superficial analysis of what is going on.  He tried to blame the food crisis on global warming.  But in fact, demand for food in China and India, rising prices of corn and other commodities, and rising fuel prices have a lot more to do with it.  None of these causes stem from global warming.

On Iran, Obama criticized Hillary for saying she would "obliterate" Iran in retaliation for an Iranian nuclear strike against Israel.  He would say only that he would respond in an "appropriate" way.  But that begs the question of what an appropriate way is, and he's never explained that.  

Surely if an American ally gets nuked, it is more than appropriate to state unequivocally that we'd retaliate -- that's the best way to be clear about our intentions and make sure that no one gets nuked in the first place.

On Wright, now Obama says that he's broken with Wright because something changed since last month -- "a sense that he was going to double-down on the statements that he made before."  This is simply not credible.  

Surely it is utterly predictable that a guy who thinks 9/11 was "the chickens coming home to roost" would "double down" when cornered.  Outrageousness begets more outrageousness.  If Obama can't figure that out, he has no place crowing about his superior judgment.

Finally, on the gas tax, I'm not sure who has the better argument on the merits.  Some people claim that a tax holiday would have no effect because it would only save the average American $25 per month.  But there are many examples of when seemingly incremental tax changes have big effects.  The bigger question is whether it would increase demand and thus have no net effect on gas prices.  I was impressed that Obama was willing to admit he was wrong to propose a similar program while in the Illinois State Legislature.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama on MTP (none / 0)

"Finally, on the gas tax, I'm not sure who has the better argument on the merits .... But there are many examples of when seemingly incremental tax changes have big effects...  I was impressed that Obama was willing to admit he was wrong to propose a similar program while in the Illinois State Legislature.

On your last point, you are exactly right, but I'll vocalize what the issue really is, IMHO. First, I am from Illinois, and the reason the tax holiday failed was because of price gouging, fraud, and abuse. There was no monitoring or mechanism to catch cheaters. so it failed. If you recall, Hillary proposed the gas tax, but also has proposed instituting monitoring the situation for corruption.

Even more important, tho, is the psychological effect a reduction in gas prices would have. That is the intangible that isn't amenable to mathematical calculations.  

And, what Economist has ever been correct in their assessment of a psychological impact of a public policy?  If there were, they'd all be Stock market millionaires!


by PracticalMagic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was too soft for me.. (none / 0)

Carbanion: Kindly stop the attitude that presumes to tell someone to go to a Republican site simply because they have some problems with Obama in terms of his questionable close associations (add: Rezko & Ayers).  I've voted Democratic for 40 years...even when I supported the candidate who didn't win in the primary.  Because I believe that Obama's campaign insidiously race-baited the Clintons prior to South Carolina, coming to terms with that will be especially difficult for me.  And, for many of my very longtime Democratic friends.


by christinep on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:29:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

is there a live stream?


by el mito on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:29:21 AM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 3)

He is still playing defense on wright while Clinton is on ABC using closing arguments.

I think she will win both States Tuesday.


by gotalife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:30:07 AM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

And this is what I mean when I say Obamites tend to have a firmer grasp of reality.

Do you really think Clinton's going to win North Carolina...because she performed well on ABC?


by Covin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 5)

Obama looked excellent.  Russert keep the questions hard and fast and Obama handled them all excellently.


by Bobby Obama on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:30:32 AM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Yeah, it was great when he dissed Clinton because Pres Bush will never sign the windfall profits tax this year, and then he proceeded to crow about what he would do to bring some relief - all needing the President's signature - that Bush will not sign this year. Russert never called him on that, since he is so in the tank for Obama. Otherwise the interview showed Obama to have learned some talking points well, but he sure didn't come off Presidential.  Petty, whining, irritated, maybe tired - in contrast to Hillary Clinton on ABC who came across, once again, in control, in command of the issues and facts, and provided the closing arguments that will guarantee her an IN win, and just maybe in NC as well. After all, she cane within .1%(7/~4000) of winning in Guam, when Obama was predicted by Obama's campaign to win by 11%.  If we see that kind of shift on Tues to Clinton, oh my.  That will be a game changer. You go, Girl!


by PracticalMagic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

You must have missed the show.


by JavaCityPal on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:10:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 3)

Fails econ 101 with his preposterous proposition that eliminating the gas sales tax only allowed the oil companies and retailers to just raise prices back to what they were.

Hey BO, gas and sales taxes are added ON TOP of the price of a gallon that the marketplace (ever hear of it) determines for it.

He continues to crap all over the state of Michigan. Those darn auto companies had the audacity to fill a market for SUV's. He may try to pass himself off as faux law professor but he sure can't even pretend to teach basic economics.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:30:57 AM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 6)

I guess all those economists who agree with him also failed Econ 101.


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

If they agree with his lying proposition, yes they did.

However, I doubt any of these economist agrees with BO's point that the temporary lifting the 5% (whatever the IL tax rate is) sales tax lead to a direct 5% rise in gas prices and into the pockets of Oil and retailer. It is not true and BO is lying to you.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 3)

That's not true at all.  

The gas tax is essentially a VAT, assessed at the refinery level.  It's not like the sales tax you pay on a pair of sneakers.  Have you ever seen the word "tax" on a receipt from the gas station?  No.  

The refineries are taxed.  If we remove the tax on the refineries, we are HOPING they pass the savings on to consumers, but there's no guarantee they will.


by davisb on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

No, BO was referencing the Illinois sales tax, levied at the pump.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

I am still waiting for one historical example that shows a corporation NOT passing increased costs on to the consumer.

Just one, please, and I will stop asking this question.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

Econ 101 says that the amount of the tax passed on to consumers depends on the elasticity of the demand--i.e. how responsive demand is to prices. Intuitively, if demand doesn't drop much even if prices increase, companies can pass the cost on to consumers. If demand does drop, then companies have to absorb some of the tax themselves, as consumers will not buy the good if it costs too much.

Your argument supports dropping the gas tax, actually. If you think it has been passed on to consumers, then you might as well drop it, since it's the consumers who are paying it.


by OrangeFur on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I think that was actually covered in Econ 205...

The fear is that demand will rise if the gas tax is dropped, thus jacking prices right back up to where they were before the holiday (which is what happened in a number of states that have tried this).

Even if demand stays the same, we'll be out billions of dollars for highway maintenance/construction etc.  

If we make up for this lost revenue using a tax on profits, as Hillary has proposed (a difference from McCain) then what's to stop the oil companies from passing on THAT increased expense to consumers?  

Best case scenario, Hillary's plan is pointless; it takes away a tax on one end of the gas production process and adds it to another.


by davisb on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

gas is an inelastic good.  Not elastic.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:32:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

5% change in price on the suppliers side in the current market is not so elastic.


by shalca on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

inelastic good refers to goods that no matter what the price is, the consumer will buy it.

the supplier can raise that price up, up, & up and the market demand will still be there.

look at it this way:  health insurance - elastic.  Some prices are good and some aren't.  Some insurance companies will woo you in with a low price.  But once you get the insurance, you are tied with inelastic prices on the services, such as co-pays, drug prices.  Those can go up & up, and you will still pay for them, cause you are stuck.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

But, her plan calls on passing the tax on to the oil companies:

"We can choose to have you continue to pay the federal gas tax this summer or we can choose to try to make the oil companies pay it out of their record profits."

This is increasing their costs.  Again, just one example when a corporation that was given increased costs and did not pass it on to the consumers.  Also, note the word "try", what if they decide not to pay it and pass it on?

If they don't, then how do we make up for the lost revenue in highway department funds?  What about the jobs that will be lost?  These, too, are costs that we will have to face.

Remember, this has been tried in Il.  The companies passed it on to the consumers.  It failed.  BHO signed this bill and has since learned that it didn't work and is thus ardently against trying it again.  He learned from that mistake.  A leader learns form mistakes.

I am tired of short term fixes that cost us in the long run.  Can't we please start working on solutions that look way down the road?  President Carter was railroaded for talking the truth to the American people.  He told us that we had to make changes now in our energy policies and whatnot or we would face dire consequences.  For that, he was voted out.  When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964, he said: we have lost the south with this vote.  He could have done the politically easy move and not signed it or applied a band aid fix to the issues.  He didn't, he did what was right and paid for it politically.

I see the tax holiday the same.  It is a band aid and will win votes.  It does nothing for the long term but increase costs in more ways than my wallet.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Easy, any time the marketplace will not accept the higher price. It is really simple. If the increased costs cannot be passed on, the margins to the producer/retailer are reduced. If they are reduced to the point where profits are no longer able to be made, the company stops producing/selling it.

Point of sale pricing is determined by a whole hosts of factors, direct costs being but one. Conversely, if productivity increases reduce costs, it does not follow that the price will come down. They come down only when competition forces them down.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

Actually, the economists agree with him on this one.


by protothad on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 0)

"Fails econ 101 with his preposterous proposition that eliminating the gas sales tax only allowed the oil companies and retailers to just raise prices back to what they were."

Then so does Hillary backer Paul Krugman and every other economist -- all of whom say that Hillary and her cojoined twin McCain are pandering in a way that is not only ineffective, but hurtful in the long run.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

And a $1000 middle class tax is not pandering? BO is making Hillary's "pandering" pale in comparison.

BTW..I am a life long elected Democrat who has come to absolutely loathe BO, just loathe him.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Every economist -- even ones who have supported her -- calls Hillary's and McCain's gas scam pandering of the worst kind in that it will cost hundreds of thousands of jobs and result in higher prices...all for half a tank of gas per family.

Even the Indianapolis Star, which just endorsed her, called it pandering. Why they would endorse someone like that, only they can explain.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:58:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: switching the channel (2.00 / 2)

I caught Hillary deflecting George's question about Rush getting Republicans to vote for her with "oh, he's always had a crush on me".. Charming.

She seems to be talking about issues that matter to voters and seems to have hit her stride. My reaction is similar to Gurganus on the two candidates

May the best voice win. Unfortunately, call me cynical, given how primaries work, I don't think we'll get that this time.


by BostonIndependent on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:31:01 AM EST

Softball? (none / 0)

He asked about nuclear and energy policy, and those were softballs?

Oh, wait, you think that a misstatement about something that happened before Obama was born and whether Obama might or might not have met a guy at a party once are hardball questions.  Take a hike.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His DNA brings people together (2.00 / 1)

What did he mean by this? "My father is from Africa. It's in my DNA to bring people together."


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:48:43 AM EST

Herein is the reason I will NEVER (1.60 / 5)

vote for Obama:

1) He USES RACE when it benefits him, but launches vicious attacks on anyone else who points out the obvious ... that he is using race to his advantage.

2) He offers himself as a saviour whose very essence is one of reconciliation -- thus no one can criticize him without criticizing his essence.  

3) He doesn't think he needs to actually DO anything for people.   His very existence is enough.

4) He is arrogant beyond all belief.


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:57:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

makes perfect sense... (none / 0)

if you're a myopic Republican who believes in all the spin.

in any regards, here I go in response to you:

1) vicious attacks? This isn't something I can refute without specifically knowing what you're talking about. I do know that part of my year was tracking negative campaigning in the Democratic primary and both campaigns stayed above the fray for the most part. Hillary's camp ran more negative ads according to the Wisconsin Project (with Obama close to 0% negative from his own campaign).

I will say this. Race has been used in a negative way on more then a few occasions by Hillary surrogates. Obama himself can't really deal with the issue of race directly without it hurting his political aspirations. There's a huge danger being tagged as an "angry black man".

2) he hasn't offered himself as a savior. His campaign brand is "hope" and "change". Some can argue that these things are rather abstract. I would agree with it to the extent that marketing is an abstract science.  

My feelings are that you are perhaps responding to the swelling of support for people who look up to him as a person that can offer them something better. It's a rather lazy position that doesn't look at how Hillary is branded nor how that brand affect the mood of her supporters.

3) lazy comment. if you believe

4) maybe he is. I personally don't think he's more "arrogant" then the next person who's well educated and knows a lot about a lot (hillary for instance).

but #4 strikes me as your biggest throwaway reason and your second biggest throwaway line of the post (after why you'd NEVER vote for him). It puts the value of arrogance above what's best for this country. You'll take "100 more years..." of Iraq, unbalanced budgets, less folks with health care, a more strict angle on reproduction rights, a conservative majority in the Supreme Court, less college affordability and a more detrimental environmental policy which includes U.S. isolationism over an "arrogant" man who shares progressive values on almost anything.


!
by alex100 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: makes perfect sense... (none / 0)

sorry.

3) it's a lazy comment. His platform isn't one that can easily be turned into "he doesn't believe he needs to do anything for people".

in fact, his life's work says the opposite is true.


!
by alex100 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The identity crises (2.00 / 2)

of having an African father and a white mother.

It has caused him to seek a broader understanding of what divides/unites America.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But DNA? (2.00 / 1)

Implies he's already done the seeking.


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama uses figure of speech. News at 11. (none / 0)

Silly season.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:58:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My fault: being concerned about others feelings (2.00 / 2)

"It's one of my faults, being concerned with others' feelings."


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:52:16 AM EST

Re: My fault: being concerned about others feeling (2.00 / 1)

Oh good lord.  Well, at least he's figured out a better flaw than keeping his desk messy.


by Montague on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 2)

Another NBC love fest with Obama.


by orion1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:58:21 AM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

I haven't watched it.  Are there not enough pressing questions about lapel pins and "Fingergate"?


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:56:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (2.00 / 1)

""I don't think the race is over until Sen. Clinton decides she is getting out"


by catfish1 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:02:43 PM EST

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (2.00 / 3)

Fool.  Hillary is staying in because we need her, we want her, and she knows it.

I figure the race will be over when Obama concedes.


by Montague on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

Hillary is staying in because she needs you ($debt collection$) and you don't know it, yet.

FYI, I'd rather troll-reply your troll "fool" comment, than troll-rate you.  It's more creative.


by haystax calhoun on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

Please TR me.  I'm not afraid of TRs.

Glad to know you admit that your replies are trollish.


by Montague on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

Nah, more fun this way.


by haystax calhoun on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

Is that why she is trailing by 150+ pledged delegates to Barack Obama?  Does Hillary Clinton think the voters were somehow duped into voting for Obama?  Come on.


by Brad G on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

It's because weez all stupid.  If we really knew Obama, none of us would have voted for him.  But we beez stooooooooopid.


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

no, it's actually just that the black people vote for obama, and the elite intellectual types, and we don't need them. rather, we should just let old white appalachain catholics dictate our nominee, because that's the only demographic that matters.

and the obama kids have all drunk the kool-aid, and we've been totally duped by the hopemonger...

or something. the (il)logical gymnastics of the clinton supporters make my head spin.


by jbill on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No she's trailing because he (none / 0)

basically stole a bunch of red-state caucuses.


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like Minnesota? And Washington? (none / 0)

Obama's won way more than just red state caucuses.  

Further, caucuses are designed to showcase a candidate's organizational strength.  What you're doing is accusing Obama of being well-organized and having strong activists as supporters.  Well, that's what caucuses were meant to reward.  

We want a presidential candidate with a strong ground game.  For years, Republicans won the ground game because they had evangelicals who cared about social issues as part of their base.  Now you're going to turn your back on an organizational advantage that puts said evangelicals to shame?  


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're right, he won more than (none / 0)

red-state caucuses, but the red-state caucuses have made the difference in delegate count.

Look, anyone who spent any time at all on daily kos during the months of January to March 08 knows that intimidation a) can go a long way toward silencing dissent; b) that Obama's supporters are heavily inclined toward intimidation.

Caucuses have the in-person element that allows intimidation to be used to advantage;  Caucuses also represent a much smaller sample of a state's Democratic population than straight elections do.

Intimidation is no way to win the respect of one's opposition, and this is why Obama is looking at a possible defection of up to 35% of Hillary's supporters if he gets the nomination.  


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

Well, you ought then brace yourself for the strong possibility that the race will NEVER be over for you.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (none / 0)

You left out the rest of the quote, which was essentially...

"I don't think the race is over until Se. Clinton decides she is getting out, or once all of the primaries and caucuses have voted" (paraphrase).


by davisb on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sez race is over when Hillary gets out (2.00 / 1)

She's two laps down with one to go. Obama's been kneecapped for 2 months and she hasn't gained an inch on him.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:27:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama hit a Home Run on Meet The Press (none / 0)

meanwhile on Faux Sunday they are fuming about support from D-Kos and Move On for the Faux boycott.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:07:48 PM EST

on Faux Sunday they are fuming (none / 0)

I'm sure the two most influential entities in the liberal blogoshere appreciate the publicity.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on Faux Sunday they are fuming (none / 0)

No doubt they do.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

obama is for the regressive gas tax (2.00 / 3)

His position really make no sense. Hillary is correct on this issue -- conservative democrats like myself and others who post on this site disagree with most of Obama's stated tax policies including this one.


by o2befree on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:08:14 PM EST

Re: obama is for the regressive gas tax (2.00 / 1)

Right, and Hillary Clinton is also for the "regressive" gas tax, except for a few summer months.  A pure gimmick, lifted from John McCain's playbook.

She doesn't even know how to pump gas, for all the "I'm blue collar" posturing.  What does she know of gas taxes?

An outright pander, as even a lot of working-class voters I've seen interviewed seem to grasp -- talk about elitist condescension, thinking working-class voters are too ignorant or selfish to know when they're being pandered to!   No sane person who understands the economics of the situation supports her position.  

But yeah, maybe Senator Clinton can buy a few votes for a $30 savings per head.


by realcountrymusic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: obama is for the regressive gas tax (none / 0)

We've seen her inability to pump coffee as well.

By the by, intriguing username.  Whatever do you mean?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think any tax on carbon is Progressive in nature (none / 0)


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thanks guys (2.00 / 2)

completely unhelpful recount of what was said by everybody involved (obama lovers/bashers alike).  Really, nobody can shed their bias just to give a summary?  Even if you support one of the candidates, you can still give a description without adding your own snark to the end of it.  


by ab03 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:09:34 PM EST

Re: thanks guys (none / 0)

No, I think you'll find that most people have a great deal of difficulty assimilating reality.

I haven't watched either of the programs because I'm not sure exactly what I'm supposed to get out of it. The mainstream media isn't going to ask any important questions of either candidate.


by Covin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Invited Rev. Wright to the White House (none / 0)

she also experienced Sniper Fire and she also learned to shoot ducks behind the cottage her grandfater build... Now she wants to Obliterate Iran!  

However, they, Clintons & Republican-controlled media, do not want people to feel Hope or Inspiration!  They have no Weapon against that!  So they belittle Barack's talent or Gift for inspiration & hope!  Shame on them....  Barack (in his new ads running in NC & Ind.) had to "remind" us who he is because the Republican-controlled Media & Clintons tried to re-define him and confuse us as to who Barack really is!  And they try to distract us with Rev. Wright who was Invited to the White House and was once highly respected and sought after!

       Barack "Investing in People"


by bacalove on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:12:11 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 2)

You'd think with skepticism in the Jewish community about his support for Israel (which I think is unfair, but there are many skeptics) he would have answered the Iran question better.

His answer will satisfy pacifists that make up a core of his base, but not make many Jewish voters happy.


by GregNYC on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:20:41 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 3)

I'm Jewish and I find Hillary's nuclear militarism on Iran terrifying. Believe it or not, not all American Jews are Likudniks who want to obliterate the Arabs and Iranians.


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 1)

Well if Israel was attacked, there will be many in teh Jewish community who won't appreciate a nuanced vague rebuttal.


by GregNYC on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 0)

That's great.  We now have a false choice between "nuanced vagueness" and "total obliteration".


by haystax calhoun on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

THANK YOU.... (none / 0)

SENATOR MCCARTHY!


by IowaMike on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

What elrod said. I think a lot of people wrongly conflate American Jews with AIPAC.It's just not true.  The new JStreet PAC website is worth a read.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Believe it or not, not all American Jews are Likudniks who want to obliterate the Arabs and Iranians.

Hillary did not say she wanted to obliterate Arabs or Iranians, as I'm sure you well know.  She said she would obliterate Iran IF Iran nuked Israel.  Which is in line with our nuclear policy for well over 40 years.

Obama said only that he would respond "appropriately," which begs the question of what an appropriate response is.  In most cases, the worst mistake one can make in foreign policy is signalling mixed intentions -- that makes adversaries miscalculate, and that's how wars begin.  We need to be clear that Israel, like our other allies, is under the nuclear umbrella.  


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Well, his answer on Israel doesn't make this liberal Jew unhappy.

What does make this reform Jew unhappy is Hillary Clinton's double standard on church choice.  If she says rather condescendingly that she would never have left Barack Obama's church, why doesn't she tell Joe Lieberman that she would never be able to belong to his synagogue, which not only segregates men from women, but also makes women sit in the back where their views are obstructed?


by Brad G on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

How do you define better?

Is everything about votes? If so, than Hillary's support of the Iraq invasion was/is correct!


by chrispy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:44:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (1.50 / 2)

Yeah, 15 minutes of softball questions about a meaningless swiftboat distraction, such an easy ride, really.

Senator Obama was as presidential as I've seen him yet in that interview;  the questions weren't soft, he was just hitting them out of the park like they were.  

As for you leaving the democratic party if you don't get your candidate, ain't that a tragedy.

The future of the democratic party is solidly lined up behind Obama and will not be distracted Senator Clinton's scorched-earth GOP-lite fear-mongering tactics into falling for the candidate the Republicans would so like to face in the GE.

Because if you don't think there are a hundred Reverend Wrights in Senator Clinton's closet, you must not know her story very well.


by realcountrymusic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:20:42 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 0)

5 minutes' hate starts... now!


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:24:14 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 0)

"What good is an account, Mr. Username, if you are unable to... speak?"

It allows decrease of speech without decrease of membership.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Good allusion!


by chrispy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 2)

Obama has looked so tired and depressed the past few weeks.  He didn't look very good on Meet The Press.  Tired and Depressed again.


by karajan72 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:24:43 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I don't think he looked tired or depressed at all.

However is it me, or is his graying quicker?


by Bobby Obama on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Video anywhere? (none / 0)

I didn't see it live. Is it online?


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:28:13 PM EST

Re: Video anywhere? (none / 0)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/
... with links to transcript and netcast
¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (2.00 / 2)

Best Timmy question: What have you learned from this experience? And the tone, so warm and loving!

I wish Timmy had apologized for having to ask any questions. I think a better suggestion he could have made is: If we both click our heels three times and say there's no place like home, all will be better.


by NY Writer on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:31:57 PM EST

So, ready the basic themes here.... (2.00 / 1)

If Obama looks good in an interview, its because he got soft questions.

If Hillary looks good, its because she's presidential.

If Obama looks bad its because he's an unprepared elitest.

If Hillary looks bad its because the good ole boys club is sexist and wants her stopped.

Should I just cut and paste these for future reference if I want to be rec'ed on this site?


by IowaMike on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:01:55 PM EST

Re: So, ready the basic themes here.... (2.00 / 1)

I love it!

Even if I can't rec it.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, ready the basic themes here.... (none / 0)

I'll mojo it.  It's dead solid perfect.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:48:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, ready the basic themes here.... (none / 0)

you pretty much nailed it.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:09:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OT, poll, today's Gallup (none / 0)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106981/Gallup -Daily-Obama-49-Clinton-45.aspx

Obama back ahead 49/45 in National primary polling.


by mady on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:08:36 PM EST

Today's Gallup poll puts Obama ahead (none / 0)

OK Now lets see him open up the margin.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

So far, just as he did with the Wright situation, he seems downright Kerry-esque in his willingness to sit back and let others define him without response.

I think there are a lot of similarities.


by bobbank on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:16:25 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I think you've been living in a cave if you actually believe that.


by Covin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

My take on the foreign policy comments is this:  He is not president yet, and committing to a specific miliatary course of action is really inappropriate.  I think if you are in the race you can define the issues and your stand on them, but not the miliary options you might choose to use.  


by mady on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:16:44 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

That's military--too much typing and my fingers seem to hate the word.


by mady on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I'm curious why Todd Beaton didn't just make this a standard hit piece from the start?


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:17:43 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Are people getting bitter over another bad Obama performance or something?


by bobbank on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I just find it amusing that he opens up two threads about Obama and Hillary's appearances, and then updates them with brownnosing for Hillary and an attack on Obama.

I guess somebody needs to keep preaching to the choir since bitterness and hate for the Democratic nominee are all that's left for them.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

He does not do "hit pieces." that I've ever seen.


by mady on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Most of his diaries are strongly biased toward Clinton, and if not toward Clinton, then against Obama. Surely you can see that if you look at his diaries objectively. If not, you may want to work on your critical reading skills. When I log on to Daily Kos, I hardly expect unbiased coverage of the Clinton campaign.


by Covin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My critical reading skills? (none / 0)

I'm an Obama supporter and my "critical reading skills" are just fine, thank you.  There is a difference between favoring one candidate or another and writing "hit pieces."  One can promote an idea civilly, and certainly one can take exception to a comment without labeling the commentor deficient in skills, or do you not think that is possible?  


by mady on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I agree.  


by Bobby Obama on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those were some soft ball questions (none / 0)

The Senator is lucky.

One question that could have been asked is: What is the difference between now and then? Why condemning him now rather than then? Rev. Wright said that we deserved to be attacked in 2001, said God Damn American in 2001, said that the government manufactured AIDS and purposely infected African-Americans prior to that, so if you knew about those declaration in December and January if it is now prior to that, why didn't you distance yourself from him earlier? Why now? Is it because he said that you are just a politician? Is it because it became personal?

Anyway, he got away from answering these questions, but he will have to face them and answer them sooner or later. And i believe the sooner the better because the less we drag this thing, the better it is. And if we deal with it now and we talk about it ad nauseum, it would be almost a moot argument by the fall.


by likelihood zero on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:35:37 PM EST

Lucky, eh? (none / 0)

Geraldine Ferraro, is that you?

Obama said he gave Wright an opportunity for reflection... a second chance, if you will.  There's a difference between saying things to your congregation in the heat of a sermon and then repeating and enhancing the statements, years later after plenty of time to seek correction.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lucky, eh? (none / 0)

You are talking to another support of Senator Obama, do you really think i need explanations? Do you think you are helping the senator by idiotically serenading everyone of his move? I call it as i see it and this is how i saw the interview with Meet The Press this morning. He was lucky because Tim Russert did not ask follow up questions. I counted at least 4 instances where Tim Russert could have asked and insisted on follow ups, but he did not, hence the lucky reference.

I know what the senator said, but that is not going to help in dissipating the questions raised. All i am saying is that he could have said what he said recently in December/January when the campaign knew that those statements where circulating on the web. Instead, he did not, which was a big mistake. Even the senator said so. Didn't you hear him say that he could've pulled off the band-aid quicker? Now, by not removing the band-aid quicker and at once, he opened himself to the accusations of playing pure and old politics with the subject, believing in those statements (hence his very low numbers on the CBS/NYT poll on the question of patriotism 29% of Americans think that he is very patriotic) and providing more than 4 competing and alternative explanations to his behavior. This is just plain bad.


by likelihood zero on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree on Iran (2.00 / 1)

If you watch the whole segment the point of difference between Obama and Clinton with Iran is about tone and negotiation. When you suggest open and direct negotiations with Iran, including carrots and sticks, you don't telegraph exactly what those carrots and sticks will be. You also don't use bluster about "obliberating" them in the hopes that they'll join in a dialog. That's just crappy diplomacy and has defined the Bush years.

I think Obama's approach has been much more responsible. That his policy prescriptions would end up so similar to Clinton's in the end only underscores the value of Obama's respectful approach and tone. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Talking about obliteration is Bushism again, and will cause Iran to dig in its heels.

But I suppose she figures some hawkish members of the American Jewish community will be impressed. Sadly for her, most Jews don't think that way. I know I sure don't.


by elrod on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:41:04 PM EST

Re: I disagree on Iran (none / 0)

I, for one, want a president who understands that Meet the Press or a debate is not an appropriate forum for conducting foreign policy. One who is willing to pass up the opportunity to score a few political points.


by tysonpublic on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree on Iran (none / 0)

You also don't use bluster about "obliberating" them in the hopes that they'll join in a dialog. That's just crappy diplomacy and has defined the Bush years.

On the contrary, it is very sound diplomacy.  You do not want there to be any strategic ambiguity about what we would do in the event of an Iranian nuclear attack on Israel.  That leaves the door open for Ahmadinejad to think that he could launch such an attack and we would be too force-adverse to respond.

When everyone is clear on our strategic doctrine, we are in a much better place to say, "now that we've established clear parameters, let's talk about areas where we have common interests."  And that is how diplomacy gets done -- on the basis of common interests, not feel good statements about hope and change.

This is one point that Hillary grasps very intuitively and Barack does not.  It is a major reason why I chose to support her.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree that you dissagree on Iran (none / 0)

If you have to do deterrence, you have to be believable. You have to make it as clear as possible to the Iranians that if they even think about using a nuclear weapon on any country, they would be at the receiving end of our full retaliatory response.

If you are not believable and seem weak, your deterrence policy is not effective and a joke.

When JFK said in his speech during the Missile Cuban Crisis "It shall be the policy of this Nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union."

That is pure deterrence language. There is no equivocating. It is as clear as possible and the USSR knew exactly that we were not joking. They also knew that if they even get close to that red button, the world would be over.

In case Iran acquires a nuclear weapon (which we should do whatever we can do to stop them from getting/making one), we need to make it crystal clear to them that we are not joking when we say we would destroy you. This is the only way to make the use of a nuclear weapon so expensive and so tragic that one one can dare using it.

I agree that Bush gave the deterrence language a bad wrap with his bullshit for 8 years.

However, the deterrence language and policy and the first strike capability were the language/policy that kept the USSR from launching any nuclear attack on the US and its allies. Almost 50 years with 10000s of nuclear weapons aimed at each other and no one dared to launch one. This is quite an accomplishment.

I for one like the deterrence language of Senator Clinton. I don't support her, but i like her language when it comes to Iran. Iran is seeking to acquire a nuclear weapon because they want to accomplish a certain number of objectives. If they succeed on getting one, this is the only language that we should have with them. And it is not because Senator Clinton said it that it must be wrong.  


by likelihood zero on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

I swear Russert Would have done fellatio on Obama if asked.This interview was a talking point commercial for Obama it was Channey like in its ability to ask softball questions without any come back when he hedged on the cream puffs that the huge head known as Tim was serving up.I don't like his speaking style either.Ers ughs and pauses makes him sound kinda dumb.


by grab6 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:57:21 PM EST

That's good (none / 0)

Hit Obama on his slight speech impediment.  That's very classy.  It's also classy to not listen to the content of what he's saying, which is smarter than any other presidential politician.

Anyway, the last 45 minutes were hard policy questions, and hte first 15 minutes were about Wright.  Where were the softballs?


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's good (none / 0)

The "ums" and "uhs" aren't a speech impediment -- they suggested to me that Obama was getting a bit flummoxed by hard policy questions.  His oratory skills come from, well, oratory.  In debates and interviews, he's much less polished.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's just great (none / 0)

We need more Clinton supporters that are biased against various handicaps.

Obama's natural speech pattern is like that.  He is good at oratory because structure works well for that sort of speech type where he's watching and enunciating every syllable.  If he doesn't know what he's going to say in advance, he can't use the same methods to clean up his speech.

Obama was right on MLK day.  The primary deficit in our country is an empathy deficit.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

It was disappointing that Barack fell short of clearly stating that he would campaign for, and support, Hillary Clinton if she were the nominee, saying twice only that he would help elect "democrats."

In contrast, Hillary has stated quite strongly that she would "work to the bone" to help elect Obama if he's the nominee.

Quite a distinction, and very unsettling coming from Mr. Hope and Unity.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:19:21 PM EST

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Obama stated he will support Democrats, not Republicans, or Republicans in Democrat clothing.

So Hillary needs to decide if she is a Republican or a Democrat.

She needs to stop supporting McCain's gas tax holiday.  She needs to stop using words like "you're either for me or against me."  She sounds just like Bush.  She needs to decide which side she's really on: the oil company or the people of America.


by hienmango on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

If I were Obama, I'd be damn leery of having Hillary campaign for me.  There are many rational, eloquent Democratic women who could more than pick up the slack for her loss.  In fact, she should go back to the Senate and do what she can inside the walls of the Capitol where the public cannot see her.

I was a Hillary fan until she decided to go after Obama personally with distortions and outright lies.  He does not need her nearly as badly as she would need him.  


Schmedlap
by Regis J Reynolds on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's said it many times. (none / 0)

TexasDarlin, you surely haven't missed the dozens of times Obama has said that he'll work to put a Democrat in the White House even if it's not him, or the fact that his Organizing Fellowship will be out there registering voters whether he's the nominee or not.

You're being willfully ignorant.

What's unsettling is that you continue to spread false doubt that only helps Republicans in the end.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (1.00 / 1)

The interview was nothing short of disgusting.

If Obama were to become President, would the entire world keep serving him milk and cookies and fluffing up his pillow?

Anyone who thinks they would is dreaming.

Obama would be a disaster because he doesn't even know the questions to ask, let alone the answers.

Obama would be a disaster because he can't think on his feet.

Obama would be a disaster because he wouldn't be able to keep being Schrodinger's cat on every issue taking all possible sides at the same time.

Obama would be a disaster because he would anger all the groups that supported him once they saw how feckless he actually is.

Obama would quickly become as universally disliked as Bush.

The good news is that he will never be President.

His supporters can't intimidate people once they are in the privacy of the voting booth.

If Obama's the candidate, he will lose by a landslide and McCain will be the next President.

Hillary Clinton is 1000x better than both the other candidates.

Lets hope that the superdelegates are smart enough to see through Obama and Axelrod's hype.

To those of us old enough to remember the Clinton years of peace and prosperity its clear who the best choice is.

Hillary Clinton will be a great President.


by BerkekeyGuy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:29:55 PM EST

Don't be so sure. The dark hints (none / 0)

we are increasingly getting about race riots may actually work in the general election as well.   Just let Sharpton, Jackson, and Rangel threaten to trash the country with race/youth riots, and you might see a lot of people in positions of influence, including republicans in government and the mainstream media, caving in.   Once the media and government leaders cave, it's a relatively simple matter to brainwash the electorate.  


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"the dark hints" (none / 0)

Wow. I love these comments that betray more about the reader than they realize.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:13:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, the race riot theory is (none / 0)

purely man on the street, at this point.  Try getting your head out of your computer world and talk to some average people.   Sports talk radio, for example, hardly a bastion of Hillary support, where a guy is saying

"Come on, give Obama a chance.   I like the guy.  Besides, if you don't there's going to be rioting in the streets."  

Rolled off this guy's tongue as naturally as "Hi and how are ya".


by miker2008 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Disgusting?" (none / 0)

Please, I beg you, what should a good, solid, tough, and impartial interview of Obama look like?

Tim Russert, for all his faults, is not a panderer.

Seriously, you guys.  If Obama comes across well in an interview, you seem to have to believe that it's because it was a "fluff" interview... because he certainly couldn't possibly do well without help.  Right?

For all the praise Hillary got for going on O'Reilly, you'd think we had rather lenient standards for interviews around here.  But no.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Russert let him off easy (none / 0)

SEN. OBAMA:  The other candidates aren't talking about their ideas, they're talking about me.  So they're talking about, they're, they're, they're talking about what, what--who, who is he?  And do we know his values, and he's not wearing a flag pin right now and, you know, his former pastor said some crazy stuff.

As other observers have pointed out, this claim is outright false. Obama's opponents ARE talking about the issues, they're NOT talking much about Obama, they're DEFINITELY not talking about flag pins, and both are deflecting questions on Rev. Wright when asked (saying it's up to the voters) while Obama is going on the offensive.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:37:58 PM EST

Oh, they're talking about him. (none / 0)

There've been a number of clips from both McCain and Clinton in the last week talking about Obama.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They not talking much about Obama, are they? (none / 0)


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Todd's Spin Continues (none / 0)

I'll keep saying it...integrity.

Do you use the blog to try to raise the level of discourse or just a vehicle to promote your candidate?

Hillary reinforces her willingess to nuke Iran if necessary.
Crazy. Her gas tax relief proposal also crazy.

Obama comes across beautifully and as who he is, albeit not
the "Saviour" some make him out to be...

But you focus on how well she did and what was wrong with his performance.

Oh Todd...

Nice to have the power or illusion of power (it always is isn't it?)
that comes with this blog...

Please search your own conscience a little more and balance out your commentary.

Mark


by markpsf on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:49:03 PM EST

Re: Todd's Spin Continues (none / 0)

He comes across as kind of a wimp.I think he must have either ran chicken or talked his way out of every conformation he was ever in.The Nevel Chamberlin of his generation thinks that appeasing Iran will keep them from making an Atomic weapon is laughable.Sen Clinton is correct in a corrosive foreign policy regarding Iran is the only way to stop them from going nuclear.Without the big stick and the carrot Iran will never come around.Clinton is the only hope,Obama will talk and talk then complain to the UN then the middle east will go nuclear,Saudi Arabia,Egypt,Etc..Obama is way to dangerous to put up as President.  


by grab6 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Todd's Spin Continues (none / 0)

Clinton isn't talking about any carrots, just sticks.  Much like Bush has been all this time.

Iran is NOT Nazi Germany.  Sorry.  There's every indication that they're interested in diplomacy.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:29:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack Obama on Meet The Press (none / 0)

Obama sounding like Kerry? You don't say? I saw this eons ago. And he does the duck and hide when the GOP attacks. No response. He sounds like a college professor lecturing the voters about issues instead of convincing them he's a better candidate. All of the above is why he has demographic problems.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:32:44 PM EST

What's wrong with his Iran comment? (none / 0)

He didn't say that he would personally rip the hearts out of Iranian children to escalate the level of war porn in this country and that's a bad thing?

Somehow I don't believe you are a Democrat.


by zadura on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:00:38 PM EST


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