The value of Alegre's vote

Here on MyDD I've read innumerable diaries about the meaning of the popular vote (or lack thereof), and there has been a lot of discussion about the value of the caucuses to the democratic nomination process (or the lack thereof).

Sadly, the discussions seem to play themselves out in the same way over and over again.  Clinton supporters talk about 'counting the votes', and Obama supporters point out that the Democratic nomination process is a race for delegates, not votes.  Occasionally someone comes in and claims that Obama won in caucus states because he cheated somehow.  If not, it is at least claimed that the caucus process has disenfranchised somebody's brother, sister, or grandparents and is not democratic or representative.

In defense of caususes, it has been stated on numerous occasions that while primaries are good measures of the breadth of a candidate's support, caucuses measure the depth of a candidate's support.  But this never fully crystalized with me until I thought about the value of MyDD's own Alegre to the Clinton campaign.  The passion, committment, and dedication that Alegre brings to the campaign of her candidate is the perfect example of why some states use caucuses.  Having an Alegre on your team is probably worth a hundred of almost anybody else.

Put simply, Alegre's vote for the democratic nominee should count for more than mine.  And if I understand correctly, she lives in Washington where they had a caucus, so her vote did count for more than mine.

No, this is not snark.
And no, I am not calling out Alegre.

(more below the fold...)

Let's not forget that the Democratic Party is a private political organization that can choose its presidential nominee however it wants.  Sure, it used to be the smoke-filled rooms and convention floor fights, but now it's mostly primaries and caucuses -- and the obviously undemocratic concept of the superdelegates who can vote for whomever they wish for any reason.  While the process has evolved into something that looks a lot more democratic (note the small 'd') than it used to be, the purpose is of the nomination process is to come up with the best candidate for the general election -- regardless of the method of selection.  This is why the whole concept of 'one person, one vote' in the Democratic Party's nomination process is simply inoperative.  Sure, in the general election, as an American, my vote counts the same as everybody else's (at least within my state),  but in choosing a Democratic presidential nominee, not all votes are created equal.

Think about how much time Alegre has devoted for her candidate.
Think about how much money Alegre has raised for her candidate.
Think about how many people have been inspired by Alegre's words to support her candidate.
Think about the tenaciousness with which Alegre has advocated for her candidate.

If you're trying to choose the best nominee to go up against the other party, having Alegre on your side is a hundred times more important than some random Democratic, Republican or independent voter who pulls the lever for Clinton or Obama in an open primary.  The support of an activist like Alegre is immeasurably more important than the support of a politically-inactive supporter whose contribution to the campaign is limited solely to his or her vote.  Campaigns need people to organize events, make phone calls, raise money, and get out the vote, and caucuses help the Democratic Party identify which candidate has more supporters that are more likely to put in this kind of work for their candidate.  No, it's not a perfect correlation -- I'm just saying that caucuses show us something different than primaries by bringing out the activists.

And this is why caucuses play a valuable role in determining who might be a better candidate in November -- because they require more committment from participants than just marking a checkbox; because they force participants to stand up in public and declare their support for their candidate; because they encourage political activism by allowing you to make a difference by bringing a carload of your friends; because they encourage you to use your powers of persuasion to convince supporters of other candidates (who didn't make the 15% threshold) to come to your candidate's side.

Caucuses show us which candidate has more supporters like Alegre that are willing to work their asses off for their candidates.  And having more Alegres on your team is the best way to beat your opponent in November.



Display:


Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Just another reason why the 'popular vote' is basically non-existent and largely meaningless.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:11 PM EST

Interesting way of putting it. (2.00 / 1)

And I happen to agree.  In a general election the "one person one vote principle" must apply universally, and not favor any particular group of reporters.

But in a primary, building the party and enthusiasm for one candidate over another should count for something.  Granted, the caucus system is a pretty half-assed and random way to do that, but those who are willing to spend an evening advocating for their candidate deserve a little more recognition than those who simply treat primary voting as an errand.

In a sense, Obama won because he had more Alegres (in terms of committment, effort and fundraising, not persuasiveness of online posts) than Clinton did.


by corph on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Errratum. (none / 0)

For "reporters" substitue "voters".


by corph on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a sad thing to say (2.00 / 1)


by linc on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a sad thing to say (2.00 / 1)

It's only sad if you don't realize that it's a partisan nominating contest and not a democratic election.  Giving meaning to the popular vote effectively nullifies the results from caucus states.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

as it should be (2.00 / 1)

caucuses are the most exclusionary bit of this whole process.


by linc on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: as it should be (2.00 / 1)

So what?  If you had read the diary, you'd know that my point, in part, is that they are exclusionary by design and that there's arguably a benefit to that because they encourage more activists who are necessary to any campaign that wants to win the general election.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually (none / 0)

she lives in the Washington DC area (based on her prior comments here)


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:16 PM EST

Re: Actually (none / 0)

Pretty sure it's Maryland.

I only know this because I used to subscribe to Alegre's diaries at the orange satan back when this primary was more of a "What wonderful candidates we have - it's hard to pick just one" type contest.


by zonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary won the Second Half (none / 0)

The Second half shows who is the stronger candidate to win the general election.

March 3rd was the beginning of the 2nd half.  Hillary has won 8 of those 15 contests and will win Puerto Rico to make it 9 of 16.

Thus Hillary should be the nominee.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:08 PM EST

Re: Hillary won the Second Half (none / 0)

The potomac primaries shows who is the stronger candidate to win the general election.

The potomac primaries are DC, Maryland, and Virginia. Obama won them all by a lot.

Thus, Obama should be the nominee.

Yay! This is fun!


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:55:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please don't feed the parody troll. (n/t) (none / 0)


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please don't feed the concern parody troll. (n/t) (none / 0)

Laughing at the concern parody troll.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please don't feed the parody troll. (n/t) (none / 0)

their gonna do it anyway. its fun!


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary won the Second Half (none / 0)

the Potomac primaries were the halftime intermission between the two halves and thus what happens during the intermission should not count in the end results.

All primaries and caucuses from February 6th through March 1 should be declared null and void at the convention.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary won the Second Half (2.00 / 1)

Which would be true...

If all states were demographically, geographically, ideologically, delegate, etc equal.

As it is, using a chronological metric for this race is a waste of time because they aren't.

It's one argument in favor of a national primary, but there are plenty against.


by zonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary won the Second Half (none / 0)

And when you include SD & MT she will have won 9 of 18.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

South Dakota should not count (none / 0)

It has too many starbucks.

Also Obama can't win SD without the heavy African Amercian vote in Sioux City.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary won the Second Half (none / 0)

Ironic that the second half starts right AFTER Obama won 11 straight.


by matchles on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I want to troll rate the diary (none / 0)

Alegre is a superb diarist who writes factual, original pieces which only deal in truth and candor.

With Alegre being one of Hillary's Internet faces who is seen as a spokeswoman for the campaign, Alegre has helped out my girl the great Hillary Clinton tremendously.

Without Alegre's support Hillary Clinton would have been mired in 3rd place this entire campaign with no shot.  

So stop picking on this person.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:09 PM EST

That's true if your candidate (2.00 / 4)

bothers to actually organize to compete in the caucuses.  Which didn't happen in February on the Clinton side.

In the future, caucuses should be banned.   Activists are important - let them make calls, canvas, sing, dance, make pop culture videos in homage to their candidates.   Let the votes reflect the popular will of the people, and let the delegates seated not be biased toward small, red states.


by activatedbybush on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:52 PM EST

Couldn't agree more (2.00 / 2)

You hit the nail right on the head.

While Alegre does drive me crazy at times with her unwillingness to engage on the merits and facts of an issue - she's generally a "pro-Hillary" diarist, as opposed to an "anti-Obama" diarist -- and even when on the attack, stays within a framework of respectful standards.

To be quite honest, I think she does a better job of staying within a reasonable framework than does Jerome :-)

I can absolutely and respectfully "agree to disagree" with folks like Alegre... I'm not as partisan an Obama backer as I was a Dean backer - but I've certainly "been there" with Dean.

And I'll reiterate again that I absolutely agree...

In a partisan primary nominating contest -- "sweat equity" among the activists in the party SHOULD mean a louder vote.

Rec'ed.


by zonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:21 PM EST

This isn't a question of who is more deserving (none / 0)

Activists can and do receive rewards other than enhanced voting power.  Taken to the extreme, your position would yield the inference that all states should have restrictive caucuses instead of primaries.

The central question in my mind is what forum allows greater participation and is more representative of the larger whole.  


by lombard on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This isn't a question of who is more deserving (none / 0)

Taken to the extreme, your position would yield the inference that all states should have restrictive caucuses instead of primaries.

No need to take it to the extreme.  Some states have caucuses, others have primaries.


by pablocruz on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:06:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Couldn't agree more (2.00 / 2)

Zonk, I admire & respect your even-handedness, but can't agree with the following:

"stays within a framework of respectful standards."

"Thugs" & "Boyz," for example, don't seem respectful.

Mojo for you.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I respectfully dissent as well. (none / 0)

And I think to judge respectful standards, one also has to take into consideration behavior on other political websites.

Posting at No Quarter and sharing information with the likes of SusanUnPC and Larry Johnson are activities that no self-respecting progessive should engage in.

The vast majority of Clinton supporters on this site wouldn't confer with that crowd.


by emptythreatsfarm on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I respectfully dissent as well. (2.00 / 1)

Agreed on all points.
"The vast majority of Clinton supporters on this site wouldn't confer with that crowd."

That's true & proven by the fact that "most" of her recs come from people who don't post here, but do on the Hillaryis44 hate site.

Some do post here....


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

alegre isn't going to support Obama (none / 0)

if he's the nominee.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (2.00 / 4)

I appreciate your support of diary but I disagree with your argument. Intensity of support shouldn't matter in regards of decision. The fact that Alegre is more passionate than Joe Schmo who happens to also support Clinton doesn't mean her vote should count more than Clinton. There's also a reason why caucuses are irrelevant to the general election -- they tend to restrict participation to those who are able to, as you acknowledge, dedicate the time and energy to vote. But most people can't, and it shows. I think the same reasoning that leads us to avoid caucuses in a general election should lead us to avoid caucuses in the primary.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:53:55 PM EST

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

In the General Election?

Sure - because the winner affects all of our lives equally (well, you know what I mean).

In partisan nominating contest to decide to who becomes the standard bearer for a particular party?

I disagree.

I think the engaged and the active SHOULD have a louder voice.  It's all about sweat equity, engagement, and depth of knowledge.

I do, however, accept the limitations of a caucus.

I'd be fine with a national "Texas-style" system.

Allocate 2/3 via primary, allocate the other 1/3 via caucus.

This preserves the will of the people, but gives the party faithful and actively involved a bigger weight in deciding who leads the party.


by zonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Hmm. I guess this gets to the heart of the matter. If partisan intensity is to be used as an argument for the existence of caucuses, then that's fine.

What it boils down to is this -- should a louder minority have a bigger voice simply because they are louder and/or more intense?

If the Democratic Party wants to espouse this view, that's fine, but to me it flies in the face of democracy. I personally wouldn't go down this road, but I can see the argument made for it. I don't agree with it though.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

"If the Democratic Party wants to espouse this view, that's fine, but to me it flies in the face of democracy."

Again, this isn't about democracy.  Would it be possible to get less democratic than the superdelegates?  The idea is to come up with a system that produces the best candidate.  One of the necessary components to such a candidate is the degree of activist support for the candidate in question.  Still, I'm not saying that degree of activist support is everything -- just that it counts for something.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Oops.  I posted my response downthread.

But intensity of support does matter when it comes to getting your party's candidate elected in November!  It's not a democratic argument -- it's a pragmatic one.  In other words, a political party needs to make sure that the candidate it's putting forth has the type of activists that are necessary for victory in the general.  One activist on your side could net you 100 votes in the general, depending on how effective that activist is.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (2.00 / 1)

I'm sure intensity does matter, but there's a limit to that. I'd argue that having a straight up primary where you can gauge intensity of support by how many people actually vote for you is more valuable in the sense that you know how many people will vote for you. And those intense activists that are likely to attend a caucus are die-hard partisans in any case and will back the nominee regardless (as Dean supporters backed Kerry, for example).

I guess it boils down to which is more important -- getting more people involved in the process or gauging who has the most intense support among die-hard party supporters. I'd take getting more people involved in the process and would submit the sky-high Democratic primary registration throughout the country that has resulted from this competitive primary.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:09:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

"I guess it boils down to which is more important -- getting more people involved in the process or gauging who has the most intense support among die-hard party supporters."

This is a good point.  All I'm saying is that the two aren't mutually exclusive.  Hence the existence of both caucuses and primaries.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Fair enough. Also, I just thought of this -- could the reason that caucus states tend to be mostly Republican-majority states be a reason for caucus existence to begin with? That is, could they have caucuses because they know that if you're a Democrat here you're likely to be a die-hard Democrat? Is this reasonable?


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh. Her passion is offset by her dishonesty. (2.00 / 1)


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:00:17 PM EST

Re: Heh. Her passion is offset by her dishonesty. (none / 0)

What are you talking about?

Alegre has never posted anything dishonest.

She is always honest, the best blogger on the Internet.  Hill may be my girl but she's my hero.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heh. Her passion is offset by her dishonesty. (2.00 / 1)

Mea culpa. I must be mistaken!


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Heh. Her passion is offset by her dishonesty. (2.00 / 1)

yes it takes a brave man to admit that he is mistaken about the great Alegre, Hillary's most influential online supporter.

You get mojo for that.


by HillsMyGirl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:19:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (2.00 / 1)

But intensity of support does matter when it comes to getting your party's candidate elected in November!  It's not a democratic argument -- it's a pragmatic one.  In other words, a political party needs to make sure that the candidate it's putting forth has the type of activists that are necessary for victory in the general.  One activist on your side could net you 100 votes in the general, depending on how effective that activist is.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:00:38 PM EST

We need honest activists. (2.00 / 1)

alegre has been propogating lies about Obama for the last three months, in addition to her unflinching support for Obama. To this date, she refuses to state she'll support the nominee of her party if the nominee isn't Clinton.

She is a single issue activist, and the issue is Clinton. We need honest activists, not dishonest dead-enders.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We need honest activists. (none / 0)

That would be unflinching support for Clinton, of course.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, maybe. (none / 0)

But I have some sympathy for her.  Some of her diaries enrage me with their dishonesty, lack of original though and press-release pablum.  Others show the human side of her passionate support and can actually be touching.

I can't think it must be pleasant to put so much time and effort into a campaign whose prospects for victory slowly but steadily erode over several months.  I remember going around kicking things for two weeks in

I just hope that next cycle she'll pick a more worthy candidate.


by corph on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Spurious post button click (none / 0)

finishing that thought:

"I remember going around kicking things for two weeks in Nov. 2004 and wanting to bite someone's head off.  I dont wish that feeling on anyone."


by corph on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

That's the best argugment for caucuses that I have ever heard.

You might should have chosen a more [thinking I should be gentle here...]  sensible... example to back up the supposition.


by rf7777 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:13:11 PM EST

It's more persuasive (none / 0)

to use Alegre.  While many of us have serious issues with the content of her post, we can't doubt her passion and commitment.


by corph on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's more persuasive (none / 0)

"we can't doubt her passion and commitment."
So true. Have the papers been signed yet (don't ask which papers)?
McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Good diary.  We have seen a dramatic shift in politics this Primary.  Obama took a style of grass-roots organizing best suited for caucuses and applied it to the whole country.  In doing so, he has completely changed the way of financing campaigns which suddenly make the type of fiance reform we've been advocating out of date.  There is a lot to be said for the social networking aspect of the caucus system versus the Primary system of anonymous and often low-information voters.  Hopefully the Party will let the dust settle first and then take a hard look at what went right in this season and why.  The staggering of states and campaign finance reform were both geared toward making an insurgent campaign truly viable against an incumbent.  It finally happened, and as you suggest perhaps more caucuses are the answer for the future, not a National primary which would greatly favor whichever candidate entered the race with the most money and name recognition right from the start.


by Piuma on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:25:31 PM EST

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

My husband and sons told me not to fall in love with my candidate.  I was for JRE and thought he got a rotten deal by the media, but I got over his loss even though I pulled for him all of 2007.  I looked at the other two candidates and chose Obama and I have not regretted it.  But, if he would have lost, I would have backed Hillary even though I have less respect for her because of her kitchen sink strategy and for many of her pro McBush comments.  I am a yellow dog democrat, and vote democrat always.  


by Spanky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:26:39 PM EST

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (2.00 / 1)

To accept the premise of your diary, one has to accept the premise that caucuses are an accurate gauge of commitment. I reject that premise. Many people who cannot attend caucuses for a variety of reasons are just as committed in their support of one candidate or another. The unspoken assertion you are making is the since Obama won the caucuses he has more committed supporters. That is false. He had more supporters who were affluent, or childless, or both, and were fluent English speakers. Affluence, family status and first language do not determine commitment.


If Hillary walked on water, she would be criticized for not swimming and if Obama swam, he would be lauded for being able to do what Hillary could not do.
by portia9 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:26:58 PM EST

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

"To accept the premise of your diary, one has to accept the premise that caucuses are an accurate gauge of commitment."

This is mostly true.  I would argue that one only needs to accept that caucuses are better gauges of commitment than primaries.  I believe this is the case because logistically, they simply do require more commitment than going into a voting booth.

On a random side-note, frankly, being childless might be an advantage to an activist.  I have a child, myself, and I know how much energy it takes to raise my boy.  To the extent that caucuses turn out people who have the time and energy required to get a candidate elected in November, I feel that they might very well turn out the right folks.


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Agreed. People who have not only the commitment, but the lifestyle flexibility to caucus are more likely to have that time and ability to commit to volunteering for the candidate.


by Mobar on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The value of Alegre's vote (none / 0)

Alegre couldn't have voted if she'd been in the military and stationed outside of the state.  That needs to change.


by alamedadem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:43:38 PM EST

yeah--those caucuses (none / 0)

they just reward all those activists!


Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
by TrueBlueMajority on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:24:55 PM EST


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