WaPo: Superdelegates aren't paying attention to Clinton

The Washington Post's Paul Kane, a congressional reporter, had a revealing Q&A today that gives some brutally honest insight into the current situation of the undecided superdelegates and the candidate currently pinning her last hopes on their endorsements.

Washington: Looking at the most recent Rasmussen daily polls, I see that Hillary manages a tie today against McCain, but Barack is down by five points to McCain. What piqued my interest was that while Hillary had a "highly unfavorable" rating of 32 percent (i.e., as I see it, people who never will vote for her) Barack was at 35 percent. On Jan. 30, as we entered primary season's main show, Barack's "highly unfavorables" were 20 percent and Clinton's were 35 percent. Is this something superdelegates may be watching?

Paul Kane: I've spent the past several months talking to as many super-delegates as any reporter in America, I'd guess, since I cover on a day-to-day basis about 280 of them here on Capitol Hill.

I hate saying this, because all the Clinton people are going to flip out and say, You're biased, you're biased, you're biased. So go ahead and flip out if you want, but the simple basic truth is that the super-delegates stopped paying attention to the Clinton-Obama race about a couple days after the Indiana and North Carolina primaries.

They've stopped paying attention to the primary, and instead they're focused on an Obama-McCain matchup in November. That's the basic, simple, definitive reality that has happened in this race. The "undecided" super-delegates at this moment are not going to "decide" any time soon, because to them the race is over, they're just waiting for Clinton to drop out.

Later on in the Q&A, the topic was broached again, this time from the "who's more electable in the fall" position that Clinton has been floating to the media:

Centreville, Va.: I was surprised and disappointed that The Post did not seem to address the Gallup poll yesterday which seemed to say Hillary Clinton had somewhat of an advantage over Barack Obama in the so-called swing states. The news of that poll was bandied about all day on the political blogs, and I have to say the Obama supporters seemed to be getting the worst of it. (Or is it "worse" with only two candidates in the poll?)

washingtonpost.com: Hillary Clinton's Swing-State Advantage (Gallup, May 28)

Paul Kane: Again, don't yell at me because I'm only the messenger here. But the super-delegates have moved on, they're no longer looking at how Hillary Clinton fares in battleground states against McCain. This is very hard for Clinton supporters to hear, I'm sorry, but the super-delegates are not paying attention to your candidate anymore. These head-to-head matchup polls (Clinton v. McCain, Obama v. McCain) are not having the impact on people's thinking anymore.

Mr. Kane's remarks jibe remarkably well with the general truth of the matter - that elections aren't decided by theoretical matchups 6 months down the road. Polls from that far out simply aren't reliable on any measure. And the superdelegates know that.

Note that Mr. Kane isn't responding with his own assessment of the primary race - he's simply bearing the truth about how the superdelegates see it. Considering that Clinton's arguments have been directed squarely at this group, its a telling situation that they're not making the effect Clinton was hoping for.

To ward off cries of bias, I'm going to include a Q&A about the general tone of the election and the supporters on both sides. This part is purely personal opinion on the part of Kane, so if you're upset about the above two statements, hopefully this will help put his own viewpoint in perspective:

Lashing out?: Why? I know that there are many out there who vastly prefer Sen. Clinton to Sen. Obama. I know they think that she's more qualified and better-equipped to beat John McCain in the general election. I know they think that Clinton has been unfairly treated by the media and that the primary system is all screwed up. I've heard all their arguments. And I don't doubt that they genuinely believe all of these things. My question, though, is this: What realistic outcome are they still holding out for?

Paul Kane: They want their candidate to win. I'm not sure they know how that outcome would occur, but they want Clinton to win, it's that simple. If Obama was losing this campaign by just as narrow a margin, his supporters would be just as upset. It's important for Obama supporters to realize just how narrow a victory he appears to have pulled off, rather than running around the country acting like they blew out Clinton. If she had been semi-competitive in the post-Super Tuesday states in February -- rather than losing them all 60-40 or worse -- it's highly possible she would be the nominee.

*Edit:* thanks for the rec list placement :)

Edit 2: I was sure I put the link in the diary to begin with! But I guess not. Corrected.

Display:


Sometimes (2.00 / 8)

Certain things just need to be said.
Great Diary.
by parahammer on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:43:24 PM EST

The Super D's decide this election (2.00 / 5)

Everybody knows that. It looks like they have made their choice.

(Waiting for the "they don't vote until the convention" talking point)


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Except -its not clear that its America's choice (none / 0)

That could end up being a serious problem for the Democratic party. Seriously, if the superdelegates ignore the trend towards Clinton in the last few months, its like we are entering the November election knowing we are doing something stupid, but doing it anyway. If a scandal kills Obama's candidacy, it will be even worse, because we clearly have had warnings. The American people will never forgive the Democratic party leadership for that.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Opinions (2.00 / 2)

everyone's got one... you know the rest.


by linc on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:45:00 PM EST

Re: Opinions (2.00 / 7)

And the superdelegates have theirs. Kane's simply telling us what their opinion is - and its apparently that Clinton's arguments don't wash.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was talking about his opinion. (none / 0)

I know that Obama supporters now believe every word coming from the mouth of the media, but it is still that, an opinion.  Did you read the article?


by linc on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She shouldn't have insulted the SDs intelligence (none / 0)

with her dubious popular vote claims.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Waiting for Clinton to drop out (2.00 / 1)

This comment disturbs me, because Clinton may be waiting for most of the remaining superdelegates to declare before she drops out.  So everyone is waiting for everyone else and the status quo continues until August.  That is my fear.


by JJE on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:49:40 PM EST

Re: Waiting for Clinton to drop out (2.00 / 5)

I highly doubt that will happen. The Democratic party leaders have made it clear in no uncertain terms they expect the remaining undeclared supers to  make their choice publicly, as soon as possible, after the 3rd. Things are being coordinated to provide Clinton with a gracious means of exit, but I highly doubt any super wants to extend that graciousness through August if she continues to press her luck.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are probably right (2.00 / 1)

And I sure hope you are.  I just found that aside by Kane kind of troubling.


by JJE on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Waiting for Clinton to drop out (none / 0)

Do you understand taht half the Democratic party supports Clinton? Do you get that? If Clinton is ushered out before she's ready to leave, Dems will have a hard time turning the vote out.

Do you get that?


by glitterannebegay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Waiting for Clinton to drop out (2.00 / 5)

Actually, they don't anymore. Unless you have some figure that proves that all those voters want her to carry this to the convention, you don't have much of a leg to stand on for your claim. Do you understand that?


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Waiting for Clinton to drop out (2.00 / 1)

Nobody is ushering Hillary Clinton out.

If enough superdelegates endorse Obama to put him over the mark, he'll be considered the presumptive nominee.  If they don't then he won't.


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As you see, its too early to even use that term.. (none / 0)

Its extremely arrogant.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Waiting for Clinton to drop out (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, but if you're concerned about turning out the vote in November, I think you should also be concerned about her deciding she's ready to leave--gracefully and soon. Nobody is "ushering her out." Not yet. But the more likely a convention floor fight becomes, the more "ushering her out before she is ready to leave" becomes the lesser of two evils, looking forward to November.


Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. -Voltaire
by kydoc2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Waiting for Clinton to drop out (none / 0)

not too worried. You'll come around come November. There are bigger battles to be fought, and it's gonna be exciting.


by Metrobot on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As every Obama supporter... (none / 0)

has reminded us so often, a super delegate can publicly declare and then change his/her mind. Until it's official it's not official.


by JimR on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good and Hooray (2.00 / 10)

to the Super Delegates.  We must all move on. Senator Obama has won the most states, most pledged delegates, the most votes and the most super delegates. I am tired of the fuzzy math and the citing of polls which change on a daily basis and are within the margin of error. Either candidate can beat McCain in the fall.  However, Senator Clinton will not be the candidate through her own fault. Senator Clinton mismanaged her campaign and lost because she only focused on the traditional blue states and refused to change her message until the last minute. Hasta la vista Senator Clinton. Good luck and God's Blessings...to all.


by markieparkie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:49:45 PM EST

Re: Good and Hooray (1.00 / 2)

Winning the majority of the big, blue states and having fully 50% of the Democratic base supporting you is evidence of a badly run campaign? What about the fact that Obama apparently can't win big blue states and can't beat Clinton in them even when he outspends 3 -1?

Clinton  hasn't been pitch perfect but she's run a campaign that will allow her to win in November. The same cannot be said of Obama who has fully half of the oppositions supporters, who are clustered in big blue states we need in order to win, saying they wont' vote for him. Clinton doesn't have that problem.


by glitterannebegay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 4)

Are people STILL on the big blue state thing? Didn't that get old in like, March? Are there really people still delusional enough to believe Obama loses California and New York?


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (none / 0)

California and New York have both gone Republican. I know history isn't a strong point in certain camps but he isnt' guaranteed those votes.

I agree that in a normal election he would automatically get them, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

Remember, McCain is media savvy and these are both media-centric states.


by glitterannebegay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 2)

Man, Obama really isn't the candidate for you, is he?  You've run completely out of hope.

After 8 years of Bush, can't say I really blame you; I just wish you weren't using your cynicism to lash out against our likely candidate.


by leftneck on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 2)

Media-centric states meaning "expensive media markets". McCain has a money problem. How is supposed to compete. Beyond that, using history as a guide, the idea that either of these states go to McCain IS ludicrous post Pete Wilson.

Besides, the poll she cited just said they're NOT going McCain. They're going Obama.

Wishing them competitive doesn't make it so.


by accidentalwonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 2)

McCain's an idiot - Obama has those states in the bag.


by interestedbystander on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 1)

You threw temper tantrums at the check line in the grocery store as a kid didn't you?


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (none / 0)

Actually, he likely had his lunch box stolen.

Daily.


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 1)

she's run a campaign that will allow her to win in November.

Not if she's not the nominee, she hasn't.


by sneakers563 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:30:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (none / 0)

She ran a good campaign after March...  too late to catch up.  Before then, she seemed literally paralyzed in February.  I mean, like deer in the headlights lost... it was very odd... unlike her, really...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:57:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good and Hooray (2.00 / 1)

QUOTE: "Clinton  hasn't been pitch perfect but she's run a campaign that will allow her to win in November."

Racking up $30MM of debt and driving superdelegates to commit to Obama at a 9-1 rate in the past month is the type of campaign that will alow her to win in November?

Ummm... ok.  Pass the bong.

It's gonna be pretty hard for Clinton to win in November when Barack Obama's name is on the ballot as the Democratic Candidate.


by Obamaphile on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 1)

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/040 8/9718.html

Jim Vandehei was the Washington Post's White House correspondent.  John Harris was a senior Post reporter.

Now that they are at Politico they are free to speak, as they did in this joint article:

The difference seems clear: Many journalists are not merely observers but participants in the Obama phenomenon.

(Harris only here: As one who has assigned journalists to cover Obama at both Politico and The Washington Post, I have witnessed the phenomenon several times. Some reporters come back and need to go through detox, to cure their swooning over Obama's political skill. Even VandeHei seemed to have been bitten by the bug after the Iowa caucus.)

(VandeHei only here: There is no doubt reporters are smitten with Obama's speeches and promises to change politics. I find his speeches, when he's on, pretty electric myself.

The title of the article?

Obama's secret weapon: The media

I am a daily reader of the Post, and they have been supporting him all along.  For example, they buried the Pfleger story today.  They tried to bury the Wright story -- they were late in reporting it, and did no follow-up.

Good quote, though.  I should know. I'm the one who asked Kane the question.   Really.


by katmandu1 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:59:47 PM EST

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (1.87 / 8)

If you're the one who posted the question, then surely you know that the reporter in question isn't covering Obama.  He's covering Congress.  And in his coverage of Congress, this is the attitude he's seen.

But of course, if you're like the right-wingers and believe that all the media is biased against you, there's really very little I can do to say otherwise.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (none / 0)

Why the TR, glitterannebegay?  Explain it or retract it.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 1)

10 of glitter's last 12 ratings are "1"s.  Just sour grapes from a sore loser I suspect.


by rf7777 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 2)

glitter is a chaos troll. Do NoT engage.


by venician on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 3)

So a story from five weeks ago makes a cogent response to this?

That's pretty weak sauce.  The story in the OP may be false, but what you are doing is an ad hominem attack against those who wrote it without actually refuting their reporting.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 3)

You do realize that's over a month old, and an attempt to defend the ridiculous "debate" held by ABC, right?


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hadn't seen this - thanks. (1.00 / 0)

It's nice to see the media acknowledge this, I respect those two reporters for saying this.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 2)

Great - wouldn't we be dumb to not choose the candidate the media loves?


by interestedbystander on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hahaha read this from 2 Post reporters (2.00 / 2)

Think. Yes, in bold. Think. Use the brain you were born with. Why would the media be in the tank for Obama when this primary fight is the BEST thing that ever happened to the political press? They have a vested interest in alternately building up and then tearing down BOTH candidates. They love this horse race. the ratings are just booming.


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Plus their bosses support McCain (none / 0)

And his only hope is a Democratic base as divided and unmotivated as the Republican one.  Is that what they mean by synergy?


by leftneck on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Narrow victory indeed (2.00 / 2)

If Obama was losing this campaign by just as narrow a margin, his supporters would be just as upset. It's important for Obama supporters to realize just how narrow a victory he appears to have pulled off, rather than running around the country acting like they blew out Clinton.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:08:33 PM EST

Re: Narrow victory indeed (2.00 / 3)

A close victory (and that definition can vary wildly) is still a victory nonetheless. Gracious winning does not equal a loss.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't understand your point (1.00 / 0)

or the point of this diary. Many of us think Obama will probably be the nominee.

Is this a sore winner diary? Just impatience I guess.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't understand your point (2.00 / 4)

The point of the diary was to show that the following points of argument aren't being accepted as legitimate by the superdelegates:

- that Clinton is supposedly more electable in the fall (there's no way to prove it).

- that "undecided" delegates are potentially in her corner (they're waiting for her to drop out).

- that any of Clinton's arguments being directed towards them are having any sway (they're not).


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So it's an impatient, sore winner diary. (1.00 / 0)

Thank you for confirming.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So it's an impatient, sore winner diary. (2.00 / 2)

I'm not sure what dictionary you're getting your definition of "sore winner" from, but considering all of these arguments are still being made daily on this site, I think the "sore winner" aspect is a little drowned out by the "won't face reality no matter who tells them to drop it" aspect on the other side of the fence.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I doubt Hillary reads this site (1.00 / 0)

Some guy at a Memorial Day barbeque did this same thing - tried to convince ME that she should drop out. For the love of god, you have four more days. Obama is pretty much the nominee.

I don't have Hillary's ear, nor do her supporters. We want her to complete this race and like Jesse Jackson, go to the convention to make the point that the party should remain a broad coalition.

We believe Obama will lose in November. We could be wrong. But we also believe a section of the party which her supporters belong to is being sheaved off and dropped into the ocean. This last part has nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with Obama and his base. As soon as you and your candidate acknowledge this, really acknowledge it and take this in, we will fall in line.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt Hillary reads this site (2.00 / 2)

Then write a diary about it. This one was specifically in regards to the points I stated, and I gave the reasons why. If you want to veer the argument to a totally new area, then go for it, but don't pretend what you're saying has any bearing on the topic of the diary.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:54:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With all the diaries (1.00 / 0)

asking "what will it take for Clinton supporters to vote for Obama" this is exactly what we're talking about - just let her finish her race. Acknowledge that she got a lot of votes and a lot of people really like her.

Instead you have to trot this out see! Superdelegates are voting for Obama. It's like you have to say it because you don't believe it yourself or something.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:00:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With all the diaries (2.00 / 1)

just let her finish her race. Acknowledge that she got a lot of votes and a lot of people really like her.

I realize you're talking about Obama supporters here, but has Obama, himself, not done this?  Hasn't he said she should stay in the race as long as she wants?  Has he ever said that she hasn't gotten a lot of votes?  Hasn't he acknowledged that a lot of people really like her?  

There's jerks among both sets of supporters.  If we wait for every one of them to come around, the election will be long over.  We're supposed to be voting for a candidate, not their supporters.


by sneakers563 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With all the diaries (2.00 / 1)

I think from your POV, this is a sore winner diary. Cuz lots of Obama supporters are resentful that Hillary is staying in this long with no other purpose than to satisfy her own ego. Or tarnish Obama. Now that may not be a fair assessment, but that's what some people think, which is why you are not seeing universal graciousness from Obama's side.

I think your point about what it'll take for hillary supporters to fall in line is a great one. But Obama can't do it until she quits. We're in a catch-22 for now. But as you say, for crying out loud it's four more days then we can get some resolution.


by Metrobot on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With all the diaries (none / 0)

I think you've nailed it - a lot of people don't believe it themselves.  Personally I think people get pretty anxious wondering when Clinton will stop campaigning and how supportive she'll be of Obama.  The more polarizing her rhetoric, like the hyperbole of Zimbabwe, the more it suggests she's not aiming for eventual unity.  People are freaked out about it.

But you're right.  4 more days of anxiety or distress shouldn't be a big deal.

At this point I support her in finishing the race, as a show of respect for her and her supporters.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:51:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt Hillary reads this site (2.00 / 1)

Okay. But can you not see how threatening to go all the way to the convention despite the futility of the effort (which you conceed) might make some Obama supporters feel the need to remind you of all of these points that offend you so much? You see, going to the convention is a very controversial position, and requires at least a certain degree of "why we should" that requires a response of "why you shouldn't".

I mean, Hillary's stated reason for going to the convention is electability, popular vote, etc. Are Obama supporters who desperately want to avoid a floor fight supposed to just not say anything when you bring up arguments being used to justify said floor fight?

So as long as that is your proposal, you can't really call the other side sore winners.


by accidentalwonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you not do the faux outrage (1.00 / 0)

and tear down the Clintons then? It's when you all do that that we say we have no choice but to go to the convention.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:22:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt Hillary reads this site (2.00 / 1)

"sheaved off and dropped into the ocean" is a pretty grand term for self-imposed exile. If you don't want to vote for him and let McCain win, that's your prerogative. But it's solely yours. Don't throw your vote away and then blame Obama.


by Okamifujutsu on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That has nothing to do with Hillary (1.00 / 0)

and everything to do with Obama and his base: you have to be young, cool, hip, if you're ordinary or old or ignored, we won't listen to you. You have to trash the Clintons to fall in line. If you don't you are a racist.

Yes that is an exaggeration but that is the overall vibe we are getting.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you're just looking for reasons to be offended (2.00 / 0)

because your candidate is likely to lose.  There's no vibe, there's just bitterness looking for justification.


by JJE on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No this has been since January. (1.00 / 0)

But just ignore it and get on with losing in November.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:42:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, January (none / 0)

when it appeared "our girl" was not going to get the nomination that was her birthright.  The tantrum began then and has increased since.


by JJE on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good - perfect attitude. (1.00 / 0)

Glad to see you've started toward your November goal.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not until tomorrow (none / 0)

when I'll be registering voters.  I look forward to revisiting this discussion in November if you haven't scurried away by then.


by JJE on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:50:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good - perfect attitude. (none / 0)

Get over yourself. It's not about you. If you're waiting for someone to apologize to you for throwing some elbows--well...it's not going to happen. Yes you have been wronged--but it's not about you.

Be a fucking grownup and vote for the candidate who's going to get us out of Iraq, put some justices on the Supreme Court who will uphold the Constitution and protect choice, and try to get people health coverage.

Otherwise you'll be part of the problem, not because you support Hillary, but because you don't support what she stands for.


by Brannon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's pure nonsense. (2.00 / 1)

Obama's supporters come in all ages, both sexes and all colors.  Most of us are pretty ordinary too (although I consider myself both cool and hip because my grandson tells me I am).  He doesn't trash the Clintons and he tells his supporters not to either (of course many of us do it anyway).

The vibe you are getting is internal, not based on Obama's feelings about you or what demographic group you belong to.  All of our democratic candidates starting this primary were populists compared to pretty much every republican candidate (Huckabee is a populist but has other issues).

You do realize don't you that if you said 'I will always respect Hillary and I wish she would be the candidate but I will give my reluctant vote to Obama in November', we would all say 'Welcome aboard'.  You would not be left out.  You wouldn't have to prove your youth or hipness or coolness (thank goodness) -- all are welcome.

For what it's worth, just sayin'.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That has nothing to do with Hillary (2.00 / 1)


...you have to be young, cool, hip, if you're ordinary or old or ignored, we won't listen to you. You have to trash the Clintons to fall in line. If you don't you are a racist.

Yes that is an exaggeration but that is the overall vibe we are getting.

If you're getting this vibe, it isn't from Obama's campaign. What evidence do you have to justify this outlandish a conclusion? Hillary may get a larger chunk of the elderly vote for example, but clearly a significant number still favor Obama. Why do those scores of voters not feel as marginalized as you claim you do?

Consider that the real culprit might just be all those smear diaries that you've been reading, rec'ing and internalizing for the past several months, taking their toll. Consider that a part of you wanted to believe all that distortion and slander, because that tends to validate one's gut preference. Recognize that poisoning your and others' minds has been the purpose of these diaries - and the campaign that pushes them - from the start.

Outrage can be addictive. Weaning oneself off it won't come easily.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry (none / 0)

But that is a pathetic response.


by highgrade on Sat May 31, 2008 at 12:00:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean you WANT Obama to lose (none / 0)

that's what your linked article says.  Why do you think it's ok to sheave off Obama's half of the party?


by JJE on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt Hillary reads this site (none / 0)

What could the candidate do to convince you?  I've seen you say before that you will never vote for him.


by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I doubt Hillary reads this site (none / 0)

I'm interested in hearing more.  Maybe a diary about this, catfish2?

I'm actually surprised to hear you say something like this.  I was pretty convinced you were a troll.  Talking about what's required for unity has me re-evaluating.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

According to the supers (2.00 / 3)

this race isn't close. Ever since Feb. 5 they've been flocking to Obama, while Hillary picks up a stray add-on. It's not a blowout, but ever since Obama's 11 straight wins Hillary really hasn't mounted a threat. The supers were waiting to see if Ohio-Texas would be the big gap-closer the Clintons promised, and it didn't happen.


by 79blondini on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rarely has the losing candidate (1.00 / 0)

won the second half of the primary, as she has.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rarely has the losing candidate (2.00 / 1)

Too bad she hasn't come close to making up the delegates she lost when Obama smoked her for 12 states in a row.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know - isn't it amazing? (1.00 / 0)

That even though the voters know she probably can't catch up in delegates, they still turn out to hear her and vote for her? She got an enthusiastic audience in North Dakota yesterday. Not saying she will win the state, but people are voting FOR her.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know - isn't it amazing? (none / 0)

it truly is unusual to have 2 strong candidates this late in the primary.


by Metrobot on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rarely has the losing candidate (2.00 / 1)

Is this another argument that the superdelegates have to say is bunk before you stop using it? Or would that be "sore winner" behavior?


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rarely has the losing candidate (none / 0)

Just out of curiosity...

How many contests do you think Reagan won when he was up against Ford?  When do you think those contests were?


I'm only a click away
by juliewolf on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is true (2.00 / 1)

And there's no doubt books will be written on every aspect of the campaign.  I bet even the high school history books will give a couple sentences to the incredibly close nomination fight between the first woman and first black candidates with wide appeal in 2008; hell, they way they write the books nowadays they'll probably get half a chapter.

But when the away team makes two more touchdowns than you in the first half, and after halftime you hold them scoreless and make a couple field goals, you still lose.


by leftneck on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And you play to the end of the game. (1.00 / 0)

Even if you couldn't possibly catch up in touchdowns or field goals, you still play to the end of the game. You don't call it at third quarter when one guy is ahead.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And you play to the end of the game. (2.00 / 2)

And in a "best of 7" you don't insist on playing the seventh game if the score is 4-2.


I have that readiness.
by Jess81 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And you play to the end of the game. (2.00 / 2)

The end of the game is Tuesday, though. Not the convention. That would be complaining about it after the game.


by accidentalwonk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:13:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read about Jesse Jackson. (1.00 / 0)

He went to the convention. But she probably won't because she has so many votes people see her as a threat. Jesse Jackson was not a threat.


by catfish2 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not like her and her delegates won't be (2.00 / 1)

there if she does the right thing when the voting ends.  At the very least, she'll have influence over the platform.  Ideally, she'll get to pick out a few cabinet positions and get guarantees of support for her legislative goals, whatever they may be.

I'd love to see her on the Supreme Court, even if that is a pipe dream.


by leftneck on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read about Jesse Jackson. (none / 0)

She's a threat to screw up the Democratic Party's chances at winning in November, nothing more.

She's no threat to taking the nomination from Obama.

Further, I state that by dragging this out until August and running a bloody campaign all summer against Obama will actually produce the OPPOSITE result of what Clinton wants - the Party will grow tired of this, and many of her own SDs will start to abandon her if it becomes clear that all she's doing is messing up the Party's chances against McCain in November.


by Obamaphile on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed. (2.00 / 3)

I do wish she'd dropped out after Wisconsin; sports metaphors aside, it would have been nice to avoid all of the ugliness of the last few months.  But since she's had one loss and a roughly equal number of ties and wins since then, I don't blame her a bit for not quiting since then.  What, was she gonna quit after winning Ohio or Pennsylvania because she didn't win by enough (even if she didn't)?

But I hope she doesn't take it past the last vote. She played a good game, even if it sometimes looked a little obsolete next to Obama's.  The score's been close, and HRC doesn't get enough credit for that. But it isn't close enough to justify overtime.


by leftneck on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And you play to the end of the game. (2.00 / 1)

but you must agree, the idea of finishing the primaries is not historically normal. It's normal for the non-winner to drop out earlier on, and for the winner to cruise through the last half of the primary season.

Doesn't mean Hillary has to do this, but we should all acknowledge that there is nothing undemocratic about the nominee not being challenged at the end of the primary.


by Metrobot on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rarely has the losing candidate (none / 0)

link please.


by Brannon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:06:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great News (2.00 / 1)

This is great news for Hillary!!


by baghdadjoe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:23:01 PM EST

Re: WaPo: (none / 0)

I wnat to see some other superdelegates opinions, other than Mr. Kanes.


by alyssa chaos on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:52 PM EST

Um (2.00 / 1)

Mr. Kane isn't a superdelegate. He's a reporter who has spoken to a large number of them.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um haa (none / 0)

yeah I missundestood the quotes.

summer vacation=brain shut off.


by alyssa chaos on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WRONG! (none / 0)

The "automatic" delegates love Hillary and ALL secretly support her.  They are just waiting until after her decisive victory in the great state of Puerto Rico until they all endorse and praise her.  They will because she will have won all the states and all the popular votes and all the pledged delegates that matter.  They will desert that loser Obama who only wins black states and illegal caucuses.

GO HILLARY!  OUR NEXT PRESIDENT!

PS:  Send money!


by rf7777 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:34:24 PM EST

Poblano on who's being attacked the most (2.00 / 1)

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/05/i ncoming.html

The short version:  While Clinton's been delivering lots of attacks, similar attacks on her dropped off dramatically after January.  On the one hand, this is good for her because it lets her poll numbers recover, as they have to an extent recently.  On the other hand, the reason that she's not getting much in the way of attacks compared to the other candidates is because she's no longer considered a serious threat.


by Phoenix Woman on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:37:23 PM EST

Simple reality (2.00 / 2)

This election was close to the point where the Superdelegates had to appoint a nominee.  They have appointed Obama.  Can't say they choice wasn't fair.   With the most pledged delegates and most money raised, he made a great case.  Clinton got the most votes and won states with a far larger number of EVs than did Obama.  She is more tested and experienced, and probably has the easier path to the White House.  But she ran a crappy campaign at least through February, and is a more divisive candidate (today, I think because the thugs know that she won't let them push her around).  

So I think we all have to accept that the SDs have done their job, that they did it fairly, and that they probably have more at stake in the consequences of this appointment than most of us do.  This one's on the party establishment.   If they've gotten it right and Obama rolls to a win and is a good or even a great President, they will be celebrated.  If he is a so so or bad president, or god forbid loses the race, then we have every right to turn on them.  

But at this point, I think that the best we can all do (assuming we all want the D in the white house) is to pull the lever for Senator Obama this fall!


by activatedbybush on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:46:37 PM EST

Re: Simple reality (2.00 / 2)

How many times is this "it's the party that did it" meme going to be floated?

Obama has the most pledged delegates (which is the metric that counts in terms of victory, much like points in any sporting contest). Period.

If you want to conjure fantasy scenarios (since it can never be exactly verified given caucuses and states that had caucuses AND primaries), fine. Note that in the majority of "popular vote" (ugh) tabulations, Obama still wins.

In other words, he was selected by the people. The delegates followed. That's it.


by Reeves on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You misunderstand the way the process works (2.00 / 2)

The candidate with a majority of ALL delegates at the convention becomes the nominee.  Pledged delegates are no more or less relevant than superdelegates are.

There are two ways to look at the will of the people.  The first is to look at pledged delegates accumulated through a somewhat arbitrary delegate allocation process that differs from state to state and has a tendency to over-reward small red states.  The other is to look at the popular vote.  Admittedly, the caucus states pose a problem here, but fortunately estimates for the votes are available.  

In either case, the outcome is close.  Obama has clearly won the most pledged delegates.  Clinton has likely won the most popular votes.   Neither have enough delegates to claim the nomination without the superdelegates.  The superdelegates have appointed Obama over Clinton.  They looked at the following facts in his favor: most pledged delegates won, most money raised, the media bias in his favor, his early momentum and the consequences of not giving the nomination to the media favorite and the first strong-potential African American candidate.    I have no problem with their decision.  The case for my candidate is not any better, and since money drives so much of this process, Obama's money machine has been awesome.  But it is what it is, coronation by superdelegate.


by activatedbybush on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You misunderstand the way the process works (none / 0)

Oh c'mon, that's a silly argument.  The likelihood that superdelegates would not back the pledged-delegate winner was always remote.  


by IncognitoErgoSum on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You misunderstand the way the process works (none / 0)

QUOTE: "The candidate with a majority of ALL delegates at the convention becomes the nominee.  Pledged delegates are no more or less relevant than superdelegates are"

Correct.

And considering that Obama has picked up 60+ superdelegates this month whereas Hillary hasn't even hit double digits, what in God's name causes you to believe that they are all going to "magically" to defect to her campaign over the next two months, when not one of Obama's committed SDs has defected in this race yet (conversely, Hillary has lost several SDs to Obama so far, and more will follow suit if she pushes this too far past June 3rd).


by Obamaphile on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm (none / 0)

Exactly where did a say that they would.  I simply pointed out that they made the decision for us, that Obama has a reasonable case.  Clinton supporters can't complain.  


by activatedbybush on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You misunderstand the way the process works (none / 0)

Coronation is a strong word. He is the candidate with the most pledged delegates--if there were no superdelegates then he would already be the winner.

So, it isn't a coronation, it's an endorsement of the candidate chosen by the people. If they instead picked Hillary over the will of the people, then that would be something different.


by Brannon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She is the choice of the people too (none / 0)

As measured by popular votes cast.  As I said, he has a good argument, and so does she.  Coronation is probably strong - I'll stick with appointed.


by activatedbybush on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree, but that concusion might not be good (none / 0)

Although she has won the majority of Democratic voters, he was won enough of them (with enough Republican and Independent support) to win the nomination.  His nomination does reflect the will of the people under the rules we have.

But for certain Democrats who are very opposed to Obama's nomination, the conclusion that the voters are responsible may actually be more damaging in the long run than the conclusion that the system is flawed.  That conclusion might make these voters feel they are in the wrong party.  I could see that particularly from the perspectives of the Reagan type Democrats.


by lombard on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's the "people's choice" (none / 0)

As is Clinton.  He has the delegates, she got the most votes.   This is exactly the situation that calls for SDs to exercise judgement, and they are doing just that in appointing Obama.


by activatedbybush on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's the "people's choice" (none / 0)

I think "appointing" is the wrong word too.  Lining up behind the pledged delegate winner is not appointing someone.  They're really confirming him as the nominee.

Superdelegates were originally designed to be a failsafe, not a queen/kingmaker.  So it's really about confirming the will of the people, as represented by pledged delegates, or else overturning the people's choice for the good of the party.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Sat May 31, 2008 at 02:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that you are reading into the way (none / 0)

this is supposed to work.  The SDs are not ratifiers of the PD choice.  They are there to ensure that the strongest nominee is chosen.   Obama as the PD winner is no more legitimate a choice (or less) than Clinton as the PV leader.

I think that either way they chose, it's an appointment.  There is no winner to confirm as there was a split decision in the two measures of popular will.


by activatedbybush on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This article confirms my prior beliefs (2.00 / 3)

I gave up on the night of Indiana and NC.  Hillary was like a team that had to defy expectations in every game or else stop playing.  Obama could afford to take some hits as long as they weren't considered too serious.  Those were the last two contests that really mattered: a medium sized neutral state and a large Obama leading state.  She had to pull a big win in one and a small loss in the other to defy expectations. She did neither.

This article confirms that the supers see the situation the same way.  The only thing that could prevent Obama's nomination is some intervening event with major negative impact between now and the convention.  

Clinton supporters now only have one real question.  Will they support Obama or not?


by lombard on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:16:55 PM EST

Re: WaPo: Superdelegates aren't paying attention t (2.00 / 2)

I'm begging you all, PLEASE stop responding to Glitterannebegay.  She is a troll, and she's obviously a successful one, as people keep falling for her inflammatory crap over and over again, even in the same damned thread.

Ignore her, for the love of God!  You CANNOT argue with someone who is not sincere, and it just stirs up greater animosity among us all.  She is NOT a typical HRC supporter, she is a TROLL, who has clearly said she will not vote for the nominee in November.  


by travelerkaty on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:46:59 PM EST

Re: WaPo: Superdelegates aren't paying attention t (none / 0)

The title of your diary is misleading and diminishes Clinton, but I'm sure that was your intent.
by zenful6219 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:54:37 PM EST

Re: WaPo: Superdelegates aren't paying attention t (none / 0)

Its actually exactly what Mr. Kane said - I shortened "stopped paying attention" to "aren't paying attention". The result is the same, but the result or intention of the words isn't mine.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK. I'll bite. (none / 0)

How is it either?


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:05:42 PM EST

Earth to MyDD (none / 0)

Superdelegates are first and foremost Democratic politicians.  John McCain can't hurt them.  Republicans can't hurt them.  Only Democrats can hurt them.  (Can you say "primary challenge"?)

Whether or not Barack Obama is elected president is of little consequence to their careers. They're concerned about three things--1) Obama's donors and their money.  2) Keeping on the good side of Obama's donors.  3) Obama's donors and their money.

Democrats lose presidential elections all the time.  It's no big deal.  The party must go on!


by Upstate Dem on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:17:13 PM EST

Source Links? (none / 0)

You need to link where you got your quotes.


by Ellinorianne on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:55:41 PM EST

Re: Source Links? (none / 0)

Good catch, I thought I had put that in there originally. Corrected.


by upstate girl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This race is still fluid (1.00 / 1)

Watch for the blowback from the Catholic media on the Pfleger affair

http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.p hp?id=28097

There, in that now famous venue, this Chicago Catholic Priest stepped into a controversy that will not die down.

He made mocking, belittling statements and gestures about a Democrat