My Democratic Congressman is Wrong!

by kevin22262, Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:47:52 AM EST

Earlier in the week or possibly last week, I read that one of my WA state Congressmen was pushing for a yes or no vote on the "free trade" deals with South Korea and Colombia. Who is that person? Why that would be Rep. Adam Smith of WA State.

So today I see the same story pop up again and felt that I needed to say something!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080522/pl_n m/usa_trade_congress_dc

I know that WA state exports a lot of goods to South Korea and we all know that this country and WA state import a lot of goods from South Korea. So WHY do we need another "free trade" deal, especially with South Korea?

I 100% oppose ANY "free trade" deals until they are looked at as "Fair Trade" deals and then I would still be suspect of these deals, especially if they are done during the bush regime or pushed by the bush regime!

More Below...

Now I should already be on my way out the door, so I will just give you a taste of the article I was reading.

Democrat urges House vote on Korea, Colombia pacts

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives would make a big foreign policy blunder if they continued blocking a vote on a free trade agreement with Colombia and deny action on another pact with South Korea, a House Democrat said on Thursday.

"I think that is a huge mistake. It certainly is an insult to Colombia. I think it would be an insult to South Korea. If you want to vote it down ... that's fine. But to go through all the effort of negotiating an agreement and not vote on it, I have a hard time with that," Rep. Adam Smith, a Washington Democrat, said during a discussion on the Korean pact.

Frankly, I do not care if he thinks it is or would be an "insult" to these countries! These deals never should have been started! Just think if Adam Smith had gotten his way before 2006, these deals would be pushed through with no regard to how bad they are! If it is wrong and you think it might have a chance to go through, then KILL IT don't vote on it!

Is this the same logic he would use for bush judges? Don't I recall hearing something like this "yes or no" vote crap when it came to federal judges and the Democrats trying to stop some of them by not allowing a vote? hmmm.... "you must vote Up or Down" or is that "you must vote yes or no"?

.... I am so confused....  maybe it was a dream.

I have no idea if this has already been posted, but I thought it deserved to be pushed.

I do not have time to find contact info for Adam Smith, Pelosi, etc., so if one of you fine people would post that info, it would be appreciated.

You can always use my favorite site: http://congress.org




Tags: free trade, Adam Smith, South Korea, Columbia (all tags)

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I gotta go.. (2.00 / 2)

I will try and check back later.

Have fun.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:48:42 AM EST

It's Colombia (2.00 / 1)

Columbia is a university in New York.  ;)


by rf7777 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:55:47 AM EST

Re: It's Colombia (2.00 / 2)

oops!

I decided to check in once before I actually walked out the door. I will fix my mistake before I leave!

Thanks!


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (2.00 / 1)

You want Adam Smith to oppose free trade? The very name Adam Smith is synonymous with free trade, how could he advocate for anything else?


by souvarine on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:56:08 AM EST

Today Adam Smith would be a Democrat (2.00 / 1)

... the patronage system rides at last, and hopefully for the last time.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

I agree that these rejections can be insulting and can harm perception of the US.  And that's exactly why we shouldn't negotiate them in a way that doesn't carry with it strong environmental and labor standards.  If it's bound to fail, let it fail in negotiation, so it's not seen as being completed and then summarily rejected.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:57:16 AM EST

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

Well if it is "insulting", then go to them and say we are sorry, but this agreement needs to be looked at again. We can not trust anything that the bush clan has put together or done.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

Good for Adam  Smith.  I note that most people on this board think that the US should cut down on its military adventures and instead strengthen its diplomatic ties, build broad political coalitions, etc.
How are we going to accomplish that if we keep kicking our allies in the shins by opposing negotiated trade agreements that would strengthen both our economies?
by markjay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:30:17 PM EST

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

I dunno, ask Hillary Clinton (and Barack Obama, for that matter) who are pandering their faces off on trade. For the record, I agree with you, its just a Democratic shibboleth to ramp up the populism whenever it comes to brown folks getting jobs.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

..."brown folks" getting jobs! What a bunch of race baiting nonsense!

This is about protecting WORKERS, Jobs, Wages, The Environment, etc. both HERE and abroad!

I am believing that YOU and the person you are responding to are both repugs. You are sounding like one, so I will tag you as one.

So you are OK with outsourcing more of our jobs? You like that China has us by the economic balls?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

Nope, I'm not a Republican. I'm just a liberal who's read a basic economics book, and understands that free trade and open societies are good things for us and the world. Your ad hom is duly noted, though.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

free trade is NOT a good thing for anyone, except the corporations and the people in power.

You did not answer the last part of my comment.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

right...corporations that then employ you and I, and sell their stock to you and I in the form of mutual funds. Its entirely simplistic to draw some false distinction between "corporations" and "the people".

I'm okay with any company outsourcing any of their operations to whatever the hell country they'd like. If the labor is cheaper somewhere else, then the labor should be done there. It's really that simple. The market will correct those who do so in error. Already there's a backlash beginning against call-center outsourcing.

My belief is simple and its supported by the facts: when goods(including human resources), money, and ideas can move freely across man-made borders, those resources are put to their best possible use. If uneducated workers in Mexico are putting together cars, our resource of better-educated workers can be put to work in emerging industries like biotech, energy, and so on.

Democratic populism is my only serious bone of contention with the party. Its entirely a pander and no one (not Hillary Clinton, not Barack Obama) seriously believes what they say on the issue.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hmmm... (none / 0)

Sorry... but you sound more like a rightie then a liberal or Democrat.

I am wondering, did you grow up under the reagan era? It sure sounds like it. My first vote was in 1980 and I never bought the whole reagan economic crap.

I really think you need to do a little more research. Try checking out the links and info I gave in my other comment.

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/5/30/1 14752/294/24#24


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm... (none / 0)

Nope, on this issue I might sound libertarian at best (but not really, since I believe in NN laws and free college), but trust me, I'm an actual Democrat. I was born in the Reagan era, a fact that I'm loathe to admit because given the tone of this blog I'm sure to be dismissed as just another half-cocked 23 year old.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Libertarian? (none / 0)

ugh.

So I am guessing that because you were born in that era and that reagan and others after him have screwed with what gets taught in school, that you are limited in actual real information about "free trade". We have all been fed for a long time that it is "good for us". I even bought into it for a bit back during the NAFTA debate.

Please read and listen to Thom and Ravi.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

Incredibly condescending. But not unexpected here, I guess.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

okie dokie.

But you still have not answered about Thom Hartmann and Ravi Batra.

What you call condescending, I call a look at reality.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

I'm at work, so I can't listen to the program. I'm sure that there have been stories of the negative aspects of globalization. The vast majority of them are true and unfortunate. But every economic system involves trade-offs - every single one.

Globalization means that some Americans will lose their jobs in industries that are cheaper to run abroad - just like passing laws to keep the jobs here would lead to higher prices for us. Either way people would bitch about greedy corporations.

You keep on directing me to some random guy with a website and a radio show...how about debating substantively instead of being condescending, and insinuating that I don't know what I'm talking about?


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

How about getting more information.

When you have a chance, take a look, listen and read.

I ask you again, have you ever heard of or listened to Thom or Ravi?

These are not just some "random" people.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

Is it possible for you to speak to someone without condescending? Have you considered that I'm actually quite well read on this topic and disagree with your conclusions?


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

Well... Yes it is. But I disagree that you are well read on this subject. I feel that you have read things from people who want this sort of economic system to flourish.

Free trade is NOT fair trade. Period.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

Still waiting on some kind of substantive response beyond a slogan.


by authority song on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:39:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libertarian? (none / 0)

You are tiring. You never answer my simple questions.

If you believe that giving corporations control over our economic futures, our lives, our environment and more through "free trade" and are unwilling to get more information through two people that I have mentioned... well... then you are simply close minded and blind.

see ya.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 12:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm... (none / 0)

Sorry I haven't had the time to jump in this conversation at your defense, but I'm heartened that a 23-year-old on this site, and an Obama supporter to boot (not that Clinton or her supporters are any better on this issue) has some basic common sense on this issue.


by markjay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm... (none / 0)

hahaha!

Economic sense? Give me a break. It is the sense that the corporate powers what you to have. YOU are in no way a progressive, liberal or Democrat if you believe "free trade" over "Fair Trade" is a good thing.

I will ask you... have you heard or read Thom Hartmann and/or Ravi Batra? If not, then please do.

Reality is a funny thing, it brings out the truth.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 12:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm... (none / 0)

Can you name five things that are "unfair" about free trade?


by authority song on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

Also the brown folks comment was snark. Quit being so sensitive.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

bad snark


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

Bill Clinton negotiated NAFTA.  Is he a "rethug"?

And how does restricting trade support workers, jobs, wages, or the environment?  Expanding trade does all those things.  It makes us wealthier and allows the kind of flexible economy that can continue to grow.


by markjay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a bunch of crap (none / 0)

hahaha!

I do not care who negotiated it.  

Your words sure sound like a rightie or from someone who benefits off the backs of others.

You are soooo wrong with your conclusions.

PLEASE read Thom Hartmann's and Ravi Batra's books, listen, learn and get out of the reagan years.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

So you like NAFTA, CAFTA, China being named a "most favored nation trading partner"?

Unless it is truly and verifiably (sp?) FAIR Trade, then it is CRAP for everyone except the powers that be and the money men/women.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

Yes. I agreed with Hillary when she originally said that NAFTA was a good thing, because it was. Then she had to get all pander-fied and deny she ever said it.

Say it along with me: the free movement of goods, ideas, and money across borders can only be beneficial for the human race as a whole.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

You are wrong! I am guessing that you think reagan's economic policies were fantastic.

So you read a "basic" book on economics. Do you ever listen to Thom Hartmann? Have you ever read any of his books?
http://thomhartmann.com/

Have you ever heard Dr. Ravi Batra? http://www.ravibatra.com/

He was on Thom's show today. He has him on often. I did not get to hear much of Thom's show today but i will listen later.

Listen to Thom's archived shows here:
http://thomhartmann.com/index.php?option =com_content&task=view&id=280&am p;Itemid=105

or here:
http://airamerica.com/ondemand/show/6624

Try reading some of his books, such as:

SCREWED
http://www.thomhartmann.com/index.php?op tion=com_content&task=view&id=21 3&Itemid=79

Unequal Protection
http://thomhartmann.com/unequalprotectio n/

We the People
http://www.we-the-people-book.com/


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

No, I do not agree with most Reagan policies. More strawmanning from you. I think supply-side is a bunch of horseshit, just like the vast majority of respectable economists.

I do, however, believe very intensely in the power of truly free markets (and ours is not a truly free market, due to supply-side policies among other things) to allocate resources in the best possible way. That's the bedrock of economics - how to take limited resources and put them where they are best used.

So let's logically go through the effects of outsourcing. Chrysler has a plant that makes minivans, and it thinks it can reduce the cost of minivans by 10% if it moves the factory to Mexico. So it does - putting the plant (maybe 5,000 people) out of work, and employing another 5k in Mexico.

We buy Chrysler minivans for 10% less, the 5,000 American workers get jobs that are better suited for their 12 years of education (as opposed to the Mexicans' significantly lower education), and a Mexican town is revitalized by the new Chrysler plant.

Now we need to do things in order to ensure that those 5,000 Americans get back in the workforce, and here's where I totally agree with Democratic candidates - the community college system must be strengthened and access to education must be made a level playing field. Because when that Chrysler plant closes I want the 5,000 Americans working in emerging sectors, not another car plant or a Wal-Mart.

In fact, there's an excellent argument that the small amount of protectionism we've engaged in is part of the reason we're behind in biotech, behind in alternative energy, and other types of green collar jobs Hillary likes to talk about - our labor force isn't as flexible to new demands as it should be.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

you can call it "strawmanning if you like, but when you talk like a repub I will say so.

Oh my... I do not have time to pick apart what you have written. You are so far off base with your little scenario.

I ask you again... please read and listen to Thom Hartmann and Ravi Batra.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

My beliefs are indistinguishable from those of any Democratic candidate or officeholder. Thanks for the chat.


by authority song on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

You think "My beliefs are indistinguishable from those of any Democratic candidate or officeholder"? Oh my. I think you have something to learn.

If there are any Democratic candidates or office holders out there that hold your same beliefs, then we need them out of office, because they are only in it for themselves and for the people that feed them money.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

Hope you're voting for Nader then. Both of our current candidates understand that free markets do the best job of allocating limited resources, including labor. This is very, very simple and I urge you to read a basic macroeconomics textbook as soon as you can.


by authority song on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

hahaha!

What a close minded person you are.

Nader? I think not. MY first choice was John Edwards.

The one thing I dislike most about Clinton and Obama, they are to corporate friendly.

The following statement by you: "Both of our current candidates understand that free markets do the best job of allocating limited resources, including labor" is simply nonsense!

I urge you to read about reality. I ask YOU once again.... Have YOU ever read or heard Thom Hartmann and/or Ravi Batra?

WAKE Up and stop feeding on the lies that the corporate powers and some politicians feed you.

This country is about We The People.... NOT They The Corporations!

Learn history... REAL History. Learn the real facts and you will then know the truth.

geeez.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 12:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My Democratic Congressman is Wrong! (none / 0)

Are you employed? Do you save for retirement? If the answer to either of those questions is yes, can you please can the false distinction between yourself and corporations?


by authority song on Sat May 31, 2008 at 01:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for posting this. (2.00 / 1)

We don't want this thing to go through.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:09:15 PM EST

You are welcome (2.00 / 1)

We need to spend more standing up for We The People and less time arguing about stupid shit.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree with you 100% (2.00 / 1)

Some deals are decent like our Fair Trade deal with Peru that had labor and environmental protections.  The deal with Colombia is not decent and deserves to be tabled until it is fixed.

I do not know about the deal with Korea.

Recced.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:38:50 PM EST

Re: Agree with you 100% (none / 0)

Good point. (Except you left out the part that the Colombia deal is modeled on the Peru deal and has the same protections.)


by markjay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do we really know this? (none / 0)

Just because "they" tell us this does not make it true.

Plus, do you really trust anything that comes out of the bush regime? I DON'T!


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do we really know this? (none / 0)

What are the parts of the agreement that are different (or that anybody anywhere alleges are different)?


by markjay on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:34:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

About Peru (2.00 / 1)

I know we have been told that this happened, but do we really know what it says? The deals are so convoluted it is hard to know just exactly what they say... until it is to late.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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