The Caucuses

With yesterday's Idaho primary, won by Barack Obama, we now have four states which have conducted both a primary and a caucus in this election season - Washington, Texas, Nebraska and Idaho.  In all four cases, more people participated in the primary than in the caucus.  Also in each case, Hillary Clinton performed better and Barack Obama worse in the primary than in the caucus.  What is amazing is how regular the trend is:

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The figure above plots Hillary's (blue) and Obama's (red) perfomance in the primary in each of those four states (y-axis) vs. their performance in the caucus in each of those four states (x-axis).  A linear fit for each of Hillary's and Obama's data is generated (whose equation is given), each of which have a very high R-squared value, indicating a clear correlation.

(NB - The labels for TX and ID are reversed for Hillary's results)

So based on the linear fits above, I've taken the liberty to perform interpolations to recalculate what a primary result would have looked like in each of the other caucus states (except Iowa - Edwards' presence kind of screws things up)

Alaska
Caucus result: Obama 75-25
Primary result: Obama 56-44

Colorado
Caucus result: Obama 67-32
Primary result: Obama 52-48

Hawaii
Caucus result: Obama 76-24
Primary result: Obama 56-44

Kansas
Caucus result: Obama 74-26
Primary result: Obama 55-45

Maine
Caucus result: Obama 59-40
Primary result: Clinton 51-49

Minnesota
Caucus result: Obama 66-32
Primary result: Obama 52-48

Nevada
Caucus result: Clinton 51-45
Primary result: Clinton 57-43

North Dakota
Caucus result: Obama 61-37
Primary result: TIE 50-50

Wyoming
Caucus result: Obama 61-38
Primary result: TIE 50-50

Using the fit from the known data in ID,WA,TX and NE, we can project that Maine would have flipped from Obama to Hillary and North Dakota and Wyoming would have been essentially a dead heat.

Next comes the projections for pledged delegates.

Texas allocatd 67 delegates based on its caucus, which have gone 37-30 for Obama.  Had these delegates been awarded on the basis of the primary result, we can approximate a 35-32 breakdown in favor of Hillary.

In the below table, I've reallocated pledged delegates based on either the known primary result or on my interpolation based on the linear fits.  I've not tried to break things down by CD, but am just using a straight-up formula, proportionally breaking down pledged delegates according to the actual or interpolated primary result.

Key:
PDel = Pledged Delegates Total
A-HC = Actual HRC PDs won
A-BO = Actual BO PDs won
B-HC = PDs to HRC based on primary reallocation
B-BO = PDs to BO based on primary reallocation


State       PDel A-HC A-BO  B-HC B-BO
Alaska       13    3   10     6    7
Colorado     55   19   36    26   29
Hawaii       20    6   14     9   11
Idaho        18    3   15     7   11
Kansas       31    9   23    14   17
Maine        24    9   15    12   12
Minnesota    72   24   48    34   38
Nebraska     24    8   16    12   12
Nevada       25   11   14    14   11
N.Dakota     13    5    8     7    6
Texas        67   30   37    35   32
Washington   78   26   52    37   41
Wyoming      12    5    7     6    6

Based on the caucus results in the above states, Barack Obama gained 295 pledged delegates to Hillary Clinton's 158, a net advantage of 137 pledged delegates.  Reallocating delegates based on the primary results or an interpolation based on the WA-TX-NE-ID data, Barack Obama would have won 233 to Hillary Clinton's 219, a net advantage of 14.

The use of low-turnout caucuses rather than higher-participation primaries is directly responsible for a net margin of 123 pledged delegates in Barack Obama's favor.



Display:


Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 18)

It shows that Obama has a great GOTV effort for contests that go to picking pledged delegates.  I am excited to see this GOTV effort bring us victory in the fall.


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:29:17 PM EST

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 10)

Which further illustrates why the MI and FL votes were fatally flawed.  Like every other sanctioned and proper election, the GOTV effort is a main component in any campaign.


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 3)

You have got to be kidding.  The Florida primary had record turn out.  For crissake, Hillary got 200k votes more than McCain in a hotly contested republican primary.  Both candidates ran agressive campaigns with plenty of GOTV through surrogates.  Don't kid yourself.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 6)

The only two states where turnout was lower than the 2004 presidential election were........Florida and Michigan.

Also, how can you compare turnout when few previous primaries in Florida even mattered?


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 1)

What a lie.  See: California, New York, New Jersey.  


Lifelong Democrat, civil rights advocate, former volunteer for Dem candidates. Now Independent.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also (2.00 / 1)

See 1972.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Also the only two states with a PVI of less than R+10 where GOP turnout exceeded Democratic turnout.


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by X Stryker on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:09:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

absolutely clueless conclusion. What this shows has nothing to do with GOTV. Afterall more people voted in the primaries than caucuses in all cases and hence the primary results are much more indicative of voter preference with larger sample sizes than the caucus results.

What this actually shows is that 1) caucuses have much lower participation and has more inaccuracies in the final result of voter preference due to a much smaller sample size 2) caucus participation is not possible for many key demographics like elderly, people with multiple jobs, people with one job but cant take off work and do 3 hours of caucusing, people with kids who cant sit at caucuses for multiple hours and stand outside in lines for hours to get in etc etc, essentially eliminating key demographics for certain candidates, while students, single folks, people with no kids, people with flexible jobs etc can participate and much of that latter category favoring one candidate over others


by pdxarch on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Umm, until this year, caucus participation was DOMINATED by the elderly. Specifically, the 65+ voters who were retired and mobile. The type of elderly voter who participates in EVERY election, from local councilman to President.

Until the Iowa caucus, it was assumed that Hillary would dominate the caucus system. Her supporters were the old-hat, been there before caucusers, and they were the most likely to show up.

A LOT of people need to check their facts before parroting campaign talking points.

I really hate a lot of the arguments against caucuses. One, MANY caucuses allow for a form of absentee balloting, two, it's three hours every four years. You'd think that someone serious about participating in our democracy could take two to three hours out of their lives to participate.

The question then becomes, would we rather have our candidate selected by people who are dedicated to the process and have bothered to read and research the positions, or should it be decided by those who listen to five minutes of their nightly news and make their decision based on that?

I'm not saying caucuses are necessarily superior to primaries, but I also don't believe that a larger sample size is more desirable than a smaller, but better informed, electorate.


by EvilAsh on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:57:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Nah, you dont have a clue on facts and havent put up any in your response either. Go read the participation stats in this years caucuses. The 65 year olds werent even in the majority to be dominating. If you have info otherwise, pls quote the numbers either from this year or other previous presidential primary caucus years. dont just spout out nonsense. Anynumber of news outlets have reported on the fact that many groups including seniors, people with multiple jobs, people with kids etc couldnt be in the caucuses this year by the same numbers as the other groups. Also you are making bogus claims on absentee voting in caucuses. Pls show me how many caucus states allow for absentee voting.

You really dont even need evidence for this. ALl you have to do is to 1) know some basic statistics 2) look at the results from TX, WA and NV caucus, primaries.

Neither do you have a clue on statistics and democracy. Larger sample size isnt better? smaller better informed electorate is better for democracy? learn something, anything at all. The idea of one man one vote and representative democracy is that we dont want an "elite/better informed" section of the population to be the only one having a say in the representation. Then why shouldnt some section of the population (say nobel laureates) claim they are better informed than they are. Heck I am better informed than you are. You shouldnt vote by that standard. Who decides who is better informed. You for everyone else? Jeez, you are not too bright are you?

In any statistical system that decides representation, a larger sample size is always better than a smaller one. your high school stat teacher might help you here. Talk about getting better informed!


by pdxarch on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 06:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 7)

I like this election, I viewed Caucuses before as an instrument of the establishment.

This season obama turned that upside down for me.

With the right activists and the right message he owned every single caucus.

I think the caucus system works as long as we don't have the DLC mentality running it (ie we need a safe boring uninspiring candidate, we dont want to scare the rednecks and such)


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 4)

Well, all but one. Remember, Nevada was a win for Hillary, even though Obama got more delegates out of it.

Does anyone remember when Hillary was supposed to OWN the caucuses? Because the only people who caucus are the 65+ crowd and retirees who don't have anything better to do?


by EvilAsh on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Well thats how you define Win.

We do proportional delegates by districts.  

According to the media and HRC that night, she won because she had popular vote.

SAME thing happened in Texas, Bill Clinton guaranteed it was over if they didn't win Texas AND Ohio and they lost texas.

The media can't convey things a 5 year old won't understand, so the Texas win was hidden under the rug, or as Bill said over the weekend "covered up"


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 7)

True enough, but I've got to cut the media a little slack on this one. They had to announce a winner and the delegate count takes a LONG time. Popular vote is easier and quicker to tally.
I've been really impressed by how Obama has managed to win this contest under the radar, while Clinton and the MSM have been in lockstep on the big, flashy, 'important' wins. While Clinton and the MSM were trumpeting her win in California (the ONLY Super Tuesday state anybody seemed to care about) Obama took a significant lead by grinding it out in all those other states.
It seems to be the theme of this campaign. Obama's rhetoric is lofty and full of hope while his campaign grinds out the wins on the ground, and Clinton speaks constantly about realism but centers her campaign around big symbolic victories.

by EvilAsh on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Beautifully stated.

You get virtual hand clap.....


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 4)

No one thought Clinton was going to own caucuses. From the very beginning, her support was always highest among women, single women, single mothers and older women - all people who are unlikely to attend caucuses. The weather makes getting older women out difficult. The time of day makes getting single mothers out difficult. The limited time makes getting anyone who works non 9-5 hours, difficult.

Caucuses were always an uphill battle for Clinton and everyone even remotely associated with the Clinton camp or the Clinton blogosphere knew that.


by glitterannebegay on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you need to look back... (none / 0)

to the press regarding Iowa and the word that Clinton was backed by experienced, reliable caucusgoers. Obama's strength was concentrated in organizing a new activist base for the purpose... though he's also grabbed his fair share of practiced activists now.


by Casuist on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:47:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I always find the single-mother stuff hard to (none / 0)

understand.

Weren't most caucuses providing childcare? (or rather the campaigns running in the caucus?)

Seriously, couldn't they have hired about ten 17-year-olds to babysit the legion of kids?

I understand this might not work so hot in the middle of nowhere... ;-)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I always find the single-mother stuff hard to (none / 0)

Plus many offered absentee ballots.


by interestedbystander on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What you don't seem to understand (none / 0)

is that there are two of those rednecks for every one of you.


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What you don't seem to understand (none / 0)

And they can smell dishonesty and misrepresentation as well as the rest of us, as well as respectfully disagreeing with someone they respect otherwise on a (small) number of issues.

Maybe you weren't saying otherwise, but that old style of Democrat, the one who isn't comfortable being his or herself because deep down they think the country is against them, is gone, and rightfully so.


by leftneck on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And a good deal of them have less patience (none / 0)

;-) being bitter and all that.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, that's one interpretation (none / 0)

Here's another.  That type of old Democrat might prefer the redneck population to latte liberal left netroots population.  


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what nonsense (2.00 / 1)

a system you thought was bad before based on good reasons is now great because it resulted in the candidate you wanted to win!!!!

What intellectual dishonesty.


by debcoop on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:21:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not so sure about that... (none / 0)

If you think that a system is bad because it hinders people-powered movements, and then your logic is utterly upended by a people-powered movement, you are not being dishonest.

Also, you're verging on a troll rating. Try making the hostility a little less obvious next time? [nb not to say that you can't say you think something is intellectually dishonest. but... with a little more subtlety and less finger pointing, please!]


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

You don't get it. Obama IS the establishment candidate.


by cal1942 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So, you think this directly translates to GE, huh? (2.00 / 3)

Look, the reason why Obama did so well in caucuses is because they were stuffed with college kids and goo-goo eyed white liberals. The smashing victories had more to do with self-selection than anything else.  Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being one of them, but only about 20% (or less) of the population identifies as liberal.  As Jay Cost noted, in many parts of the country, Obama's base is quite narrow (deep but narrow).  

I don't think there is a huge GE expansion potential for a number of his key groups (that would include African American, too).  I'm sorry, having a coalition of narrow but impassioned groups is not a winning GE strategy.  


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, you think this directly translates to GE, (none / 0)

You forgot independents and westerners.


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by X Stryker on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, I'll address those (2.00 / 2)

His margins with independents against Clinton have declined as the campaign has progressed.  I don't expect him to have much of a margin with them at all when he goes against McCain in the general.

Westerners.  Let's forget about Oregon, Washington (hell, even Dukakis took those), and California.  We could reasonably expect either Democrat to take those with a decent campaign effort even if poll numbers show Obama's numbers better in at least the first two.

As far as the other Western states, maybe he would do better in Colorado than Clinton and probably about the same in New Mexico.  Neither has a chance of taking Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, or Arizona.  

Meanwhile, he does worse than her in almost every other potential Democratic voting (but not very sure thing) state with the possible exceptions of Iowa and Virginia.

So, let's see, noticeable edge Obama: IA, CO, VA

Noticeable edge for Clinton: OH, PA, FL, MO, WV, AR.  We could also mention states like IN, KY, and maybe TN where she is close but he is not.


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WI, MN... (none / 0)

and NC is debateable.


by Casuist on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:13:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, I'll address those (none / 0)

Actually, he is, in fact, close in IN. There's also ND.


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by X Stryker on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ND is 3 electoral votes (none / 0)

And, since it hasn't voted for a Democrat presidential candidate since 1964, I'll believe that when I see it.


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ND is 3 electoral votes (none / 0)

Feel free to hold your hands over your ears and say "No, no, no!"


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Thu May 29, 2008 at 03:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, you think this directly translates to GE, (none / 0)

Maine has the lowest college rate in New England and is not particularly liberal, even in the Democratic party -- and Obama got 59% of the delegates in the Maine caucuses.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and the whitest state in the union! (none / 0)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:20:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And that refutes my point how? (none / 0)

He received an even bigger caucus win in Idaho?  How?  Because a large percentage of the extremely small percentage of Idahoans who identify as liberals attended the caucus.  When the other 85% of Idaho voters show up in November, his numbers won't look so impressive.


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

If his GOTV effort is so good, why couldn't he pull it out in primaries, as opposed to caucuses?

There aren't any caucuses in November.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com


by Caro on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

You're so right.  he hasn't been able to win a single primary.  We must be nuts to nominate him...

Bangs head against wall...again...


by oliver cromwell on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 5)

And yet you don't control for the fact that in three of those cases, the caucus preceded the primary.  One would think that that would be an important factor to consider.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:30:29 PM EST

Also doesn't account for the primaries (none / 0)

basically being straw polls with no delegates at stake.


by 79blondini on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

False, asked & answered repeatedly. RTBT. (none / 0)


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:59:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point. (none / 0)

wonder how many came after school was out? ;-)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Looks like another plus for Obama's campaign. (2.00 / 6)

Seeing as both campaigns knew there'd be both caucuses and primaries, and Barack's campaign made better use of GOTV to GOTD than Hillary's, it makes sense he'd come out on top. I like that forward thinking in a nominee.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:31:10 PM EST

Yeah, except in the GE... (2.00 / 1)

there is more expansion potential among moderate and conservative whites, asians, and hispanics than there are white liberals of various ages and African Americans.  The Obama campaign did a great job of getting supporters to caucuses.  The interesting question is how many more additional supporters from his groups are left for the GOTV efforts in the GE.  We'll see soon enough.


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do I need to post the pew study again? (none / 0)

Obama has a very large base in the independents based on his Hope schpiel.

We're talking the upbeats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_i deologies_in_the_United_States

Combine those with the rest of the democrats, and you get 51%.  This isn't even counting any disaffected Enterprisers or ProGov't conservatives.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand the Pew study (none / 0)

I just disagree with some of your interpretations over the remifications of it for this election.


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then we can agree to disagree! *nods* (none / 0)

And i'll probably continue to post the same schpiel over and over ;0)

For people on both sides, "you just gotta believe"


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

played a poor hand well (2.00 / 1)

but his coalition is narrow and it may have hit a wall in terms of expansion...indeed as th eprimaries have gone he is doing worse in those groups and McCain is not the generic Republican to the general electorate and his coaliton of Indies, and moderate republicans can not expand.

Face it we are chooosing the weaker nominee.

He's a wine track candidate .  thay alwsys lose becasue of their limited coaliton...working class voters, black and white have not voted for wine track candidiates before...but Obama has benefitted from 90% of the black vote.


by debcoop on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

RFK's coalition lives again! (none / 0)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: RFK's coalition lives again! (none / 0)

Unlike Obama, JFK toured Appalachia extensively and really connected with the people there:

While the Tet Offensive raged in Vietnam in February 1968, Robert F. Kennedy was on the mountain roads of southeastern Kentucky, shaking hands and setting fire to hearts from Vortex to Prestonsburg. Conducted as part of a Senate Subcommittee on Manpower, Employment and Poverty examination of War on Poverty practices, RFK's Appalachian tour occurred one week before he announced his candidacy for President. A few months later he would be dead. But his visit touched off what the mountain people still call "a ripple of hope" that empowered them to take their future into their own hands.

http://www.communityarts.net/readingroom /archivefiles/2004/08/when_kennedy_ca.ph p


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Harumph (none / 0)

there you go proving me wrong again!
(seriously, thanks for the CITOKATE)
*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 02:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, Texas is the only meaningful one. (2.00 / 6)

Because the others, you know, didn't count and so only old people who vote in every single election by and large turned out for those.

And not coincidentally, the marginal difference is by far the smallest in Texas.

55-45 Obama in caucus, 51-48 Hillary in primary (+13 difference for Obama)


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:31:15 PM EST

That's it, though. I'm doing my own (2.00 / 1)

"What if the rules were different" thing.


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:32:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, Texas is the only meaningful one. (2.00 / 6)

Shhh!  The diarist is trying to make a very important point based on faulty assumptions.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, Texas is the only meaningful one. (none / 0)

And as far as I can tell, faulty data. Did anyone else notice that Idaho primary results total to 108%? Or am I reading that wrong?


by Okamifujutsu on Thu May 29, 2008 at 04:19:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not so fast., bucko! (none / 0)

TX counts because it counted for delegate selection.

NE and ID count because contested down-ballot primary races were decided in the same contests, bringing out meaningful representation of active Democrats statewide.

You can quibble with the WA results, but they were only 10 days distant from the caucuses and both major campaigns urged their followers to go to the polls and show the flag ... and nearly 700,000 citizens voted the D ballot (another 530,000 voting the R ballot, which did count for delegate selection on their side).


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:33:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I said Texas counts. NE, ID, WA (none / 0)

don't.


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not so fast., bucko! (2.00 / 2)


NE and ID count because contested down-ballot primary races were decided in the same contests, bringing out meaningful representation of active Democrats statewide.

...but not necessarily the electorate that would turn out for the presidential nomination.


both major campaigns urged their followers to go to the polls and show the flag

Evidence? Besides that, Obama's supporters-having accomplished the victory they desired, had very little incentive to take part in the primary simply to manipulate a meaningless result.

I'd like to see anyone claim, with a straight face, that Obama would only manage 53% in Washington while taking 59% in a closed Oregon primary.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:41:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mmm, quibbles. (Gummy ones, not the crunchy kind) (none / 0)

That's an easy claim for WA v OR, two very different states.

I was here, I am here, I know what the local camps did.

If your want to make a case that the NE and ID primary brought out substantially different crowds for consequential House/Senate primaries with a presidential "beauty contest" kicker than for a consequential House/Senate/Presidential priamry, be my guest.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and very similar... (2.00 / 1)

in other ways. Methinks the burden of proof is on those who suggest that Obama's massive margin of victory in the caucus would be whittled down to nothing. Having friends and family in the state and having lived there myself, I don't find that particularly likely. The primary is not a valid piece of evidence on the matter. It was a straw poll.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about SUSA poll,s? (none / 0)

SUSA polled Feb 2-3, days before the caucus, screening and tabulating likely primary voters AND likely caucus attendees separately.

Obama outpolled Hillary 54-39 among Primary LV's, 59-37 among Caucus LV's.

By caucus eve (SUSA Feb 7-8), this narrows to 51-45 Primary (on the button!) and widened to 63-33 caucus (pretty darn close!).

Over to you.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about SUSA poll,s? (none / 0)

On caucus eve most Obama voters had decided that once he won the caucus they wouldn't need to bother with the primary.


by edg1 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:10:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about SUSA poll,s? (none / 0)

Got data?


by daria g on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the data's below you... (none / 0)

Obama had a healthy 14 point margin by SurveyUSA among voters who didn't intend to participate in the primary.


by Casuist on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about SUSA poll,s? (none / 0)

1) SurveyUSA was a bit off on Oregon, underestimating Obama's margin (granted, only PPP did well).

2) In the second SurveyUSA poll, Obama led 51-37 in voters who intended to NOT vote in the primary (vs. 47-44 in the earlier poll).

3) 51-45 projects to 53-47.


by Casuist on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:12:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mmm, quibbles. (Gummy ones, not the crunchy ki (none / 0)

That's an easy claim for WA v OR, two very different states.

True. And Washington is demographically MORE friendly to Obama than Oregon is. More AAs, higher per-capita income and more people with college degrees. More of the "creative class" voters that the Hillary supporters like to badmouth.

Obama would have won a meaningful Washington primary by at least 20 points. Probably much more if it were an open primary.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WA's 1.7% more AA's + 3% more BA's ... (none / 0)

... would have made all that difference?

OR and WA politics are distinct, and the comparative results are unremarkable.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WA's 1.7% more AA's + 3% more BA's ... (none / 0)

18% to 20% is "all that difference?"


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

What a great analysis, The R^2 is very high.

Rec'ed


by Jaz on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:32:04 PM EST

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

It's actually too high, which is an indicator of trouble.  Diarist has got four dyadic pairs to work with, and is creating two "best fit" lines for them.  Granted, that's all the data that exists, but extrapolating a dozen data points (actually two dozen, since there's two extrapolations for each pair) from so few is tenuous at best.

Just off the top of my head, I'd say you need intervening variables of primary-caucus order, region, and stage of the national campaign.  Most election scholars would probably also expect a term that captures campaign momentum, possibly using a measure of media coverage over the preceding campaign interval.

That, of course, can't be done because that's more variables than data points.  So we're left with two "best fit" lines.  I think it's an interesting extrapolation, but you've got to downgrade your pronouncements like crazy.  You have a high R-squared value because your working from such a tiny data set.  We can only draw the most limited of conclusions from that data set, because it's impossible to test for (and therefore rule out) competing explanations.

Still, nice diary.  More substantive than most of the campaign diaries these days...


by sierradave on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:32:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 1)

 Caucuses are not just an alternative way to gather popular votes. You know that, right?


by xdem on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:36:18 PM EST

Washington + Nebraska Fake Primaries - Meaningless (2.00 / 7)

Many registered Democrats I know here in Washington didn't vote because they knew their vote wouldn't count. I expect the same is true in Nebraska, Florida, and Michigan.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:36:55 PM EST

Re: Washington + Nebraska Fake Primaries - Meaning (none / 0)

Um, more voted in the primary than in the caucus.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Washington + Nebraska Fake Primaries - Meaning (none / 0)

Not counting distorted the primary's turnout. I even knew a few Democrats who attended the caucus who said they didn't intend to vote in the primary.

It was a Fake Primary with Fake Results.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

except that... (2.00 / 8)

three of those, being non-contested straw polls, constitute bad data unrepresentative of any serious primary contest. Moreover, your interpolation generates questionable results (e.g. a 4% margin of victory in Minnesota, when neighbor Wisconsin's primary went steeply for Obama).

Nice attempt, but in terms of projections it's about as meaningful as using the results of an online poll.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:37:27 PM EST

Re: except that... (2.00 / 3)

The projection is useless, but clearly when more people are voted - The margin decreases.

Which means that caucuses are NOT representative of what the people think.

And the data IS SIGNIFICANT!

This is not an analysis on the rules or anything, just a simple analysis of the difference between caucus and primary.


by Jaz on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

right... (2.00 / 2)

and when primaries are open rather than closed the numbers change as well. In fact, if there were one ideal way to choose the nominee, beyond argument, our system would be absolute crap. Unfortunately (or fortunately), the question is a bit less straightforward and states are given license to choose the format that suits them. There's a lot of room for speculation as to how great the margin would have been had the caucuses been primaries... but it's rather clear Obama would have still been victorious in those states. His delegate margin likely would have been somewhat less, and yet Clinton would be deprived of her BS argument regarding the "popular vote."

As it happens, though, we select our nominee by a hybrid system... including the caucuses.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oddly... (2.00 / 2)

Oddly, Obama's popular vote margin has been SMALLER in the primary in each state.

Washington - estimated 90,000 (caucus) vs 40,000 (primary)
Nebraska - 12,000 (caucus) vs 2,5000 (primary)
Idaho - 13,000 (caucus) vs 7,500 (primary)
Texas - win (caucus) vs loss (primary)

If each state had held a primary, Hillary's popular vote lead would INCREASE, not decrease.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oddly... (2.00 / 1)

Nebraska primary spread was 2,500.  Typo above.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oddly... (2.00 / 4)

If each state had held a primary instead of a caucus, Obama's ground troops would've been working their GOTV effort instead of relishing a job well done.

This kind of speculation is kinda silly. It reasons that if the election was held in a totally different format then everyone would have done exactly what they did in exactly the same way.

But don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with silly speculation. I do it all the time. (What would have happened if Gore would have run against Obama and Clinton?) But it's not really something to get worked up over.


by EvilAsh on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

just FYI.... (2.00 / 4)

1) Hillary Clinton is behind in the popular vote in primaries (NOT straw polls)

2) Election in which the voters are informed the vote is irrelevant are not an accurate representation of the popular will.

3) Your "adjustments" of Washington and Minnesota result in primary tallies that are grossly out of keeping with regional trends (Oregon and Wisconsin).

4) If the caucuses were primaries, Obama is due about half a million additional votes, conservatively speaking.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

clarification... (none / 0)

I hate using terms like "popular will" when not appropriate.

Elections which are explicitly stated to be irrelevant are not representative of the Democratic primary electorate.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just FYI.... (none / 0)

No, Hillary is NOT behind in votes when considering only primaries. I don't know how you can come to that conclusion except by excluding both MI AND FL from the calculation.

And the link you have to your own diary that projects an increase in the popular vote for Obama if primaries had been conducted rather than caucuses is based on the delusional notion that Obama would have maintained the same winning margins even in primaries.

As this current diary shows, that could not be a more obviously false assumption.

In fact, it seems very reasonable to believe the exact opposite: if primaries had been held instead of caucuses, Obama's popular vote total would only have gone down -- which is certainly true, and dramatically so, for all 4 cases of states that held both primaries and caucuses. If it's true even for Idaho -- where Obama's winning margin in the caucuses was pretty stupendous, and should be the best case where his popular vote margin should go up instead of down -- it's certainly reasonable to expect it would be true everywhere else.

What this means is that if Clinton's campaign includes the popular vote from caucuses in the popular vote tally unadjusted, as it has been doing so far as I know, then it is only being overgenerous to Obama. If, in fact, all of the caucuses had been turned into the obviously fairer and more democratic primaries, Obama would by any reasonable reckoning have lost in the popular vote count.


by frankly0 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 09:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just FYI.... (none / 0)


I don't know how you can come to that conclusion except by excluding both MI AND FL from the calculation.

Note above where "straw polls" are explicitly excluded. Telling voters ahead of time that a vote does not count invalidates an election.


And the link you have to your own diary that projects an increase in the popular vote for Obama if primaries had been conducted rather than caucuses is based on the delusional notion that Obama would have maintained the same winning margins even in primaries.

You read the diary very poorly then, as I included a calculation based upon adjusting the margin of victory based on Texas. I won't accuse you of delusion... but inadequate reading comprehension and rudeness? Yes.


In fact, it seems very reasonable to believe the exact opposite: if primaries had been held instead of caucuses, Obama's popular vote total would only have gone down -- which is certainly true, and dramatically so, for all 4 cases of states that held both primaries and caucuses.

Based upon a nonsensical adjustment of margin of victory... Texas is the only valid comparison (see straw poll comment above).


What this means is that if Clinton's campaign includes the popular vote from caucuses in the popular vote tally unadjusted, as it has been doing so far as I know, then it is only being overgenerous to Obama. If, in fact, all of the caucuses had been turned into the obviously fairer and more democratic primaries, Obama would by any reasonable reckoning have lost in the popular vote count.

You think 13 states where Obama averaged 66.83% of the vote, magnified 5x (at minimum) in turnout, would have generated a less-than 280,000 vote margin in Obama's favor.

You think that Minnesota and Washington would have been essentially tied, despite 18% margins of victories in primaries in neighboring states. and 36% margins of victory in the caucus.

You base this thought on "primaries" where the electorate was specifically informed the vote was irrelevant (if this was done in a real election, it would be a criminal act of vote suppression).

Those "thoughts," my friend, are "delusional."


by Casuist on Thu May 29, 2008 at 10:54:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Also Oddly... (none / 0)

If the contests had been primaries instead of caucuses Obama would have used a different strategy.  That's why Obama is the likely nominee.  He adapted his strategy to the situation at hand.  Clinton did not.


by edg1 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

2 of your 3 were contested downballot (none / 0)

... bringing representative samples to vote. The third was contested by both camps.

MN at 4%, btw, would have been been much more consistent with contemporaneous polling. And by your argument, MN's 34% caucus margin is more of an implausible outlier (vs WI 17% comparable) than Dave's 4% estimate.


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 of your 3 were contested downballot (none / 0)

I don't agree with the statement that downballot measures provide a representative sample.

There wasn't much polling in Minnesota to justify any particular margin of victory... and demographic voting trends have been remarkably consistent over the course of the primary. I'd be far more inclined to project a comparable margin to Wisconsin... and certainly not a 14% difference.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 1)

You can question the value of "beauty contest" primaries, but kudos for injecting some actual data into this debate.

Oh, and nice axes!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:40:54 PM EST

Re: The Caucuses (1.50 / 2)

Caucuses shouldn't count.  The rules should be ignored and we should count these primary tallies of the diarists.

Excellent diary


by HillsMyGirl on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:42:09 PM EST

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Now I know you're not a serious Hillary Clinton supporter.


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 1)

It's sort of like one of those theme parks where the employees have to stay in character at all times.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

I gave you mojo because I thought your snark was excellent - I apologize.


by xdem on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 8)

It's funny.  Call it overconfidence.  Call it incompetence.  Call it whatever you want.  Obama knew the rules.  Clinton knew the rules.  Excuse me, the former First Lady, who's been through this process before knew the rules.

Why didn't Clinton put more resources into the caucus states?  Why did she only make one appearance in my home state Minnesota, on Superbowl Sunday?  

I'm not a huge fan of caucuses, however, both candidates knew the rules.  Both candidates had a strategy based on those rules.  One strategy worked and the other didn't.

Hillary's lack of effort in the caucus states is one of the biggest reason, she lost the nomination.


by chewie5656 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:55:31 PM EST

Ickes and Penn thought it would be over Feb.5th (none / 0)

They had no Plan B in case the campaign continued on after Feb. 5th.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Personally, I kind of like caucuses. I've seen one (couldn't participate, wasn't from the state) and I like the idea of standing up and declaring your preference and why.
I like the idea that it takes a little more time and effort to participate in democracy. I would have preferred to spend a few hours arguing and cajoling  other supporters to the three minutes it took me to place my primary ballot.
Of course, that isn't something that could be brought to the general election. But I think it's a perfectly reasonable way to produce a candidate.
by EvilAsh on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

Caucuses are great, if done correctly.  I've been to two.  One, during the Kerry-Edwards.  It was great, lots of great discussion.  Lots of support for all candidates.  Great resolutions, etc.

This last caucus though, was a joke.  It wasn't ran very well, mainly because of the huge crowds.  The guy that ran it, spent half of the time reading the rules and electing two associate delegates.  Total waste of time.

So, caucuses can be good, if done correctly.


by chewie5656 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, congratulations (2.00 / 2)

You're probably one of the 10% or so of Americans that would prefer to do that rather than just go into a voting booth for a couple of minutes.  Personally, I'd prefer the technique that results in larger participation.

 


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, congratulations (none / 0)

And you'll have your preference honored when Obama wins the election in November.


by edg1 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:20:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll believe that when I see it. (2.00 / 2)

My own guess is that you will be the more disappointed one of the two of us.


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 01:13:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 3)

Having more people in a group does not make it more representative.

The Literary Digest poll of 1936 had HUGE numbers of respondents and it predicted that Franklin Roosevelt would lose in a landslide. Then his opponent won just two states. Why? Because the people who responded were not representative of the population.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:59:45 PM EST

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 1)

I don't see how that compares to voters who obviously do represent voters who vote in the primaries.  We are not talking about polls matching outcomes we are talking about people who vote.  You are talking about a survey, not even a poll, and then not actual people who made it to the voting place.


by Scotch on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (none / 0)

And you're talking about primaries where zero delegates were at stake, which the candidates did not bother campaigning for, nor did they bother working GOTV for. If you're trying to prove that Obama does better when he has GOTV and campaigning in a state, well, that's why I think he'll be fine in Michigan and Florida come November.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:16:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a new low (2.00 / 1)

in your logic.


by catfish2 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ever hear of the law of large numbers? (2.00 / 1)

If not, look it up in a statistics book.  Of course, self selection plays a part but there is more self selection in caucuses than primaries.


by lombard on Thu May 29, 2008 at 12:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ever hear of the law of large numbers? (none / 0)

I teach statistics now and then.

Large numbers don't mean anything unless you are comparing a large, representative sample to a small, representative sample.

Lots of respondents can be less good at showing what the population thinks than fewer.  See Gallup vs. Literary Digest, 1936.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:16:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Caucuses (2.00 / 6)

Regardless of the winner of caucuses this time, and with the realization that someone I support the next time might have an easier time winning caucuses, the process should be changed for the future.  Caucuses obviously keeps whole groups out of the process, doesn't allow for absentee ballots, and discourages ordinary voters from actively participating unless they are obsessed activists who have time to devote hours of their time to politics.  Older people, and people with disabilities depend on absentee ballots to participate in the voting process.  Caucuses are held for only a couple of hours eliminating people who work that shift, can't get or pay for babysitters, and a whole lot of other situations.  Primaries usually go for at least 10 hours offering an opportunity for people in all situations a chance to participate.


by Scotch on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:05:24 PM EST

Not to mention (2.00 / 2)

Not to mention the babysitters themselves....


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

several caucus formats... (none / 0)

DO allow absentee voting (e.g. Minnesota).


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

error.... mea culpa (none / 0)

I'm sorry... there are some that I'm fairly certain do allow for a preference to be stated in absentia, but Minnesota is not an example. Minnesota, however, does allow for someone to arrive, cast a preference ballot and then leave.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: error.... mea culpa (none / 0)

But they are still limited to a specific couple of hours to do that, are they not?


by Scotch on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]