So who will walk the talk?

Since we are approaching May 31, when the DNC rules committee decides on Michigan and Florida, I thought it would be useful to explore the words of Barack Obama and Donna Brazile on the process for selecting the nominee.

From Obama in an interview with CNN:

Obama this week warned Super-delegates to vote the way their states have voted, "if this contest comes down to super-delegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those super-delegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination."

Question: Does that mean his super-delegates in Massachusetts -- Sens. Kerry and Kennedy, Gov Patrick -- should defect to Clinton? How about Robert Byrd or Bill Richardson?

Said Super-delegate Donna Brazile to CNN,

"If 795 of my colleagues decide this election, I will quit the Democratic Party. I feel very strongly about this."

Ok, Donna, your 750 colleagues are deciding this.  Are you going to keep your promise and quit the party?

Who is going to walk their talk?



Display:


Is this snark? (2.00 / 4)

Serious question.


by Builderman on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:36:38 AM EST

Re: Is this snark? (2.00 / 3)

Argh . . . beat me to it!


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That is a good question (2.00 / 1)

and goes into the debate of what is snark.  A fool once said that snark is like snacks only with more 'R'.  I disbelieve that school of thought and believe that snark is a semi-cosmic near mystic power in the universe which begins the serious question:

Is this snark...


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:38:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, no... (2.00 / 3)


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:38:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this is when i know you need a nap (1.83 / 6)

its late, rage, and you've been on this site all day.  When you post these pictures i know you think you're funny but really they are not so and it kind of undercuts any serious comment you make or diary you put up.


by 4justice on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:40:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this is when i know you need a nap (2.00 / 1)

Nah, I'd rather take things out of context and only pay attention to when the other candidate says contradictory things, and then only when it suits me politically. Also, I think I'll go TR a bunch of the opposing side's supporters for no good reason. Sonud like a plan? ;)


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:48:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Commenter resorts to off-topic... (2.00 / 2)

...picture posts when he gets tired of name calling but still seeks to disrupt a comment thread. I guess he feels it's much more effective.

Others feel it's both childish and inappropriate.

I would classify myself as one of those "others" in this instance.


by bobswern on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:14:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More work went into that graphic (2.00 / 2)

than it took the diarist to formulate his/her thoughts and type out the actual diary.

I personally think it's funny, humorous, and good for the general mood. Not to be confused with the kitty-fail stuff, cause that is a serious necessity.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:22:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He's got a point (2.00 / 1)

Most of us could do with a lot less picture posting.  


by lombard on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:21:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 1)

And you call others 'sanctimonious'?  Rather disingenuous, I must say......


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:41:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (1.33 / 6)

I know it's hard to discern content when you're a sockpuppet that's never written a diary and consistently uprates Clinton supporters regardless of the content of their post, but do try to keep up- I was clearly referring to myself in my sig line- indeed, Bobswern thought that one up, and I'm proud to wear it as a badge of honor.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:47:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Enough RK (2.00 / 3)

address the contents of the diary and stop picking fights with individuals. Please.


by catfish2 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:57:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 2)

So you like being sanctimonious?  Badge of honor, hmm? And you throw in a little insult as well! Interesting. So tell me, is a sock puppet someone that does not have the 'leisure time' to spend endless hours on the 'internets'?  If so, then that is what I am!  Do you have a problem with that?


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:01:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 2)

I love being referred to as the most hypocritical and sanctimonius blogger. It amuses me greatly. Before he said that, I didn't think of myself as anything special. Now my ego as swelled, as it's been proven I'm obsessed over almost as much by Clinton deadenders as Kos is.

No, a sock puppet is someone who doesn't contribute anything as far as diaries or comments with depth, TRs nobody but the opposing side, and generally acts like a troll. Which, yeah, I've got a problem with.

Ahh, leisure time. I've got plenty. Here's what my leisure time currently entails-

Luckily, though, since I don't have anyone to help me raise the kid, I've got all the free time in the world, when I'm not working full-time, trying to figure out how to make ends meet on less than $2,000 a month, and finish nursing school.

But, hey, thanks for the backhanded insult, it was great.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:13:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 1)

That baby is adorable!


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 2)

If you think that one is adorable, this one's much better.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 1)

Guess what ~ you're not the only person to ever raise a child by themselves without any ~ and I literally mean any support from anyone else ~ so stop your preening. Get down from your high horse and stop judging me ~ I have as much right to be here as anyone else.


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:08:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (none / 0)

I ain't judging you. I don't bring those facts up unless I'm forced to in situations like this, where you malign me without knowing a damn thing about me. But don't worry, you've already exposed the content of your character. Good job. Toodles!


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (none / 0)

Boy, you are so right to wear that "sanctimonious" label.  I mean do you even read what you write?  

What I wrote:

"And you call others 'sanctimonious'?  Rather disingenuous, I must say......"

Your response:

Re: No, no... (1.40 / 5)

"I know it's hard to discern content when you're a sockpuppet that's never written a diary and consistently uprates Clinton supporters regardless of the content of their post, but do try to keep up- I was clearly referring to myself in my sig line- indeed, Bobswern thought that one up, and I'm proud to wear it as a badge of honor."

My response:

Re: No, no... (2.00 / 2)

So you like being sanctimonious?  Badge of honor, hmm? And you throw in a little insult as well! Interesting. So tell me, is a sock puppet someone that does not have the 'leisure time' to spend endless hours on the 'internets'?  If so, then that is what I am!  Do you have a problem with that?

Where, exactly did I malign you??  

Perhaps it is best that you stick with posting your silly pictures....


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 06:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

T.R.'ed for abuse of other bloggers... (2.00 / 3)

...and calling them out directly and indirectly.


by bobswern on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:19:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: T.R.'ed for abuse of other bloggers... (none / 0)

Gee, Bob, you wouldn't know anything about calling out other users, eh?


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:44:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: T.R.'ed for abuse of other bloggers... (2.00 / 1)

Oh, and nice with the Pee Wee Herman defense.


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:16:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: T.R.'ed for abuse of other bloggers... (none / 0)

Explaining his sig line is "calling out?"

I have been curious about his sig line and am glad he explained it. I didn't see him take a shot at you when he explained it.

Since I've never troll-rated anyone, I'm not an expert, but it seems to me you troll-rated him quite unfairly.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: T.R.'ed for abuse of other bloggers... (none / 0)

No, he took a shot at me.  Thnks, Bobswern, don't listen to them!


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: T.R.'ed for abuse of other bloggers... (none / 0)

BTW, has anyone seen my 'A'?


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (none / 0)

Thanks for explaining your sig line.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, no... (none / 0)

No problem, my friend. My pleasure.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Boo (2.00 / 1)

I hate the drawings, illustrations, cartoons, etc.


by susie on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Boo (none / 0)

Yeah, I understand. I mean, why have freedom of speech unless it's freedom to do it the way that's convenient for you?


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no, but nice try anyway (2.00 / 2)

what, do you not believe either said this?  What do you think about Obama saying this and his position now?


by 4justice on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I am with ya (2.00 / 1)

and I really, really cannot stand Donna Brazil...


by linc on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am with ya (none / 0)

You do your opponents a classy courtesy to at least spell their name right.


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:51:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am with ya (none / 0)

Agreed. I've seen too many "alternative" spellings of her name on Tinfoilis44 to stomach any more.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow, that got old quick (2.00 / 1)

didn't it.  Late starter?


by linc on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:39:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow, that got old quick (none / 0)

Yeah, but I think we need to let everyone do it at least once.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, and I'm saving mine for later. n/t (none / 0)


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, and I'm saving mine for later. n/t (none / 0)

I got mine as the first comment on the Linfar hate screed.  That's enough for me :)



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I haven't gotten it in yet (none / 0)

but I am saving it for a troll's diary.  Any category is fine, just so it is a troll.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:12:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I haven't gotten it in yet (none / 0)

What do you mean.  Mine was used on a trolls diary. ;)



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:16:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes it was (none / 0)

I am saying I am not going to blow my first time needlessly.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:45:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow, that got old quick (none / 0)

I got mine out of the way earlier today.  Truth be told, it left me kind of empty, but Im glad I got it out of my system.


by pattonbt on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this snark? (2.00 / 1)

Lame and overdone.  You could just choose to not comment since you obviously have nothing substantive to say.    

Serious_ly....


by Mags on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this snark? (none / 0)

Where?


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Diary hijacking violates site rules (2.00 / 1)

and merits a TR.


by catfish2 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Diary hijacking violates site rules (2.00 / 1)

According to Jerome that isn't a diary hijacking.  I do like your new routine though.  Amateur site admin is funny



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:01:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

what happened to catfish1 (none / 0)

after all when someone like RK loses his rating abilities he doesn't create a new account.

well?


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this snark? (none / 0)

This ritual is cute, perfunctorily copying an "Is this snark" comment to every non-Obama extolling diary on the site here.  

But the horse is almost dead.  Two more days of this ritual and it will be troll-worthy.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this snark? (none / 0)

Eh, it's an amusing site meme that will fade off after a couple days.  Given that someone did it to Alegre herself last night, I think the novelty will be over rather quickly.

Though if you want to be a jerk, it's the only comment that you can make in a diary that is already approved as legitimate by the admin here.


by Builderman on Wed May 28, 2008 at 08:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this snark? (none / 0)

Ooooooh... I get it.  So it's a way to express disapproval for the diary and/or diarist that falls within the guidelines.  Thanks for the info.  :-)


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:51:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is this snark? (none / 0)

That seems to be what it's becoming.  IMO, it's much better natured than somebody running into a diary and screaming about Clinton deadenders or Obamabots.


by Builderman on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ratings Abuse (none / 0)

Why do you engage in so much ratings abuse?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:39:41 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (2.00 / 1)

Excellent points, 4justice. No wonder Obama supporters don't want to respond.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:41:26 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

Any chance you or 4Justice could respond to the substantive points we've raised?  Seems the diary was misleading.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (2.00 / 2)

Actually, there's absolutely nothing excellent about his/her point(s) nor this sorry excuse for a diary

I've heard this mantra before

Question: Does that mean his super-delegates in Massachusetts -- Sens. Kerry and Kennedy, Gov Patrick -- should defect to Clinton? How about Robert Byrd or Bill Richardson?

Now, of course one would suspect that the diarist would have the intellectual honesty to point out that Senator Clinton also has superdelegates in her column from states that Obama won, but shit, why bring up such a small obvious detail when we can criticize Obama and slap each other on the back while downing a beer?


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

No one responds to these anymore because they are about two months too late and incredibly transparent.  Not to mention that Clinton and her supporters are the last people that should be eager to get into a battle of he said, she said (Michigan and Florida not counting, this being all about delegates before it was all about popular vote, and every other ridiculous and dishonest attempt to change the rules).


by KevinT on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (2.00 / 1)

We've responded many times, but you stay silent. So please quit your whining.

Truth in point: if all the SDs followed their state's vote, Obama would still win the nomination. He'd lose some SDs from some states, but win almost as many others from other states. And the difference wouldn't be enough to overcome his pledged delegates lead.

So, whine, whine, whine away. You don't know how to do anything else.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:09:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you kidding me? (2.00 / 1)

Let's compare...

All superdelegates from:

California
New York
Texas
Florida
Pennsylvania
Ohio
Michigan
New Jersey
Massachusetts
Indiana
Arizona
Tennessee
Oklahoma
Arkansas
West Virginia
Kentucky
Etc.

versus

Illinois
North Carolina
Georgia
Utah
Idaho
Alaska
Virginia
Hawaii
Maryland
Minnesota
Colorado
Washington
Vermont
Etc.

And a bunch of GOP leaning states, that have less superdelegates by virtue of having a diminished Democratic presence in those states.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:25:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding me? (none / 0)

Do compare them, BKP. Please do so. I may have miscalculated or miscounted but by my rough calculations, if every SD followed their state's vote, Hillary would have perhaps a 50-100 SD advantage -- but it would still be not nearly enough to overcome Obama's pledged delegate lead.

So, no I'm not "kidding" you. Even if I turn out to be mistaken (I didn't do very precise calculations, only rough ones) I wasn't kidding at all.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed May 28, 2008 at 04:19:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding me? (none / 0)

Okay, you're right, it probably wouldn't be enough to overcome the PD deficit.  

I was just pointing out objectively that a SD apportionment plan of this nature would be decidedly in Hillary's favor.  She has a 30 SD defecit right now so making that a +100 net would be a 130 SD swing.  Huge, IMO.  

It's important to remember that for states of the same size, they get more delegates (pledged and supers) based on how "Democratic" the state is.  For pledged delegates, that's mostly voting history.  For supers, it's who the states elected and some party elders who name that state as their homestate.  That's why New York as so many more delegates than Texas and why Massachusetts has so many more delegates than Georgia.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 04:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding me? (none / 0)

"I was just pointing out objectively that a SD apportionment plan of this nature would be decidedly in Hillary's favor."

Certainly it'd be in her favor compared to the current reality. It'd just not be in her favor ENOUGH to overcome the pledged delegate lead, and that's my own point.

So the diarist's argument ends up moot. Identically with the Michigan+Florida argument -- seat them or don't seat them, give all of them to Clinton, hell give even all the uncommitted ones to Clinton and though it'd certainly be in her favor it'd still not be in her favor ENOUGH to cover Obama's pledged delegate lead.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:12:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you kidding me? (none / 0)

It would be if she moved to apply the penalty for campaigning.  Honestly, from a tactical standpoint and knowing how hardball Clinton can be, I think that is part of what Obama fears most.  Or that once seated, the entire delegations (pledged and supers) would unite against him.  They're technically able to, even the pledged delegates.

Just to raise a critical point, after Florida and Michigan are seated (even if partially), who do you think their supers will endorse?

What you point out is absolutely true; with the states fully seated as is, Obama still has a delegate lead.  So one would think he would just seat them.  I think the very real threat of something incendiary happening when the MI/FL delegates have a voice is why he hasn't been so open to the idea.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sources (none / 0)

Can you link your sources?  I don't think Obama ever said that SD's had to follow the votes of their individual states.  I think the talking point was that, on a national level, the SD's shouldn't overturn the will of the voters.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:42:25 AM EST

Re: Sources (none / 0)

Even if had said that, and all the SDs followed the votes of their individual states, Obama still would win the nomination.

So at this point, this diary is nothing more than a further whining point, nothing of any substance whatsoever.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sources (none / 0)

I haven't heard him say it recently, although before the TX and OH vote he said it in several interviews that SD's were supposed to vote based on their constituants. (TV interviews) When Hillary was questioned about what Obama said..she said she didn't think so...but 'if so then she looked forward to the support of Kerry and Kennedy' (who had recently given their support to Obama).  


by Justwords on Wed May 28, 2008 at 04:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

And Brazile should go ahead and declare she's always been an Obama shill. No surprise there.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:43:13 AM EST

Sure, why not? (none / 0)

Nothing wrong with supporting a good progressive candidate.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:50:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure, why not? (none / 0)

Yes, indeed. Brazille needs to come right out in the open and say it instead of playing coy and falsely claiming she's "undecided."


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Undeclared" (none / 0)

not "undecided" as she has clearly stated on numerous occasions. I would also point out that had she done exactly what you suggest, she would've been criticized just as much if not more.

She has the right to her opinion as does Begala for instance. I know Begala is declared for Clinton, but that takes nothing away from the analysis he puts out in support of the Democratic party. Had he remained undeclared while leaning Clinton, I would appreciate his analysis no less.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Undeclared" (none / 0)

Yes, "undeclared." Even more of a sham. She knows who she's shilling for and just doesn't have the political courage to say it outright.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 12:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

I hope that a week from now Obama is one delegate short of whatever the number is by that point, and that Donna Brazile pushes him over the edge.  It would be the perfect conclusion to the endless stream of whining that has all but taken over the Clinton "campaign"


by KevinT on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (2.00 / 2)

What about Mike Easley, Barbara Mikulski, John Baldacci, Ted Kulongoski, Patty Murray, Maria Cantwell, etc., etc.

We can play this game forever. I keep hearing about Kennedy, Kerry and Richardson, meanwhile Clinton's got her own bag 'o' superdelegates from states and districts Obama won. That's just how it works.

And I won't be able to find it now, but there was a diary on dKos a couple weeks ago that ran the analysis and found that Obama would actually gain SDs if they had to vote as per their states/districts.

Finally, how come no one ever mentions that Clinton had scores of committed superdelegates  before the first primary even took place? How fair is that?


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:43:23 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

Superdelegates should be illegal and I think Obama supporters should also agree with this. What if the situation were reversed and the supers just gave it to Hillary? Why can't we just have a contest where the person with the most votes from the PEOPLE gets the nomination?


by rossinatl on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:43:56 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

Sure!  Let's just redo the entire primary.  Best 2 out of 3.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:46:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

how bout best 3 out of five?


"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (2.00 / 1)

Obama this week warned Super-delegates to vote the way their states have voted, "if this contest comes down to super-delegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those super-delegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination."

I don't see how his quote inferred that SD's should vote the way their states did....He only said he would have the most pledged delegates and that would be his argument to the remaining SD's..am I missing something?


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:44:45 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

The highlighted part about "vote the way their states have voted" wasn't from Obama, it was from Jake Tapper parroting the Clinton talking points.

Obama never said SD's should follow the votes of their states, just that they shouldn't overturn the elected delegate leader on a national scale.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:47:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

That's what I thought...


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:51:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you not see? (2.00 / 1)


Obama this week warned Super-delegates to vote the way their states have voted, "if this contest comes down to super-delegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those super-delegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination because The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you. I been sayin' that shit for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never really questioned what it meant. I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before you popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some shit this mornin' made me think twice. Now I'm thinkin': it could mean you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. 9mm here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could be you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. I'd like that. But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd. "

_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you not see? (2.00 / 1)

ahhh...it's so clear now...


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So are you Samuel L. Jackson or Tim Roth? (none / 0)

I know for a fact that I'm not going to be Phil LaMarr.  Nobody's disposing of me in a junkyard.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed May 28, 2008 at 08:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

Actually, it looks like your first excerpt contains an inaccurate gloss from a reporter.  If you notice, the unquoted portion of that excerpt is not directly supported by the quotation.  In any event, I'm pretty sure that having Kennedy, Kerry, etc. switch their votes to her would have no real effect on the result - he'd still have enough to win, just a different mix of supers.  

As for Brazille's comments - the only thing I draw from that sentence is that she would "quit the party" if the superdelegates disproportionately went for one person and threw that person over the finish line and in doing so caused that person to beat the other candidate who had more pledged delegates.  I mean, reading it literally as you do makes no sense - it would mean that she would quit the party if the supers played any role in the nomination whatsoever.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:48:37 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

Sorry, no. The voters have chosen Obama. The superdelegates are choosing Obama. No need to leave the party.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:48:40 AM EST

In Obama's own words, Kerry, Kennedy (1.00 / 0)

should vote for Hillary. I commend Obama for coming to his senses.


by catfish2 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:56:33 AM EST

Re: In Obama's own words, Kerry, Kennedy (none / 0)

Those were Jake Tappers words, not Obamas.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In Obama's own words, Kerry, Kennedy (none / 0)

You should learn to identify where quotation marks begin and end.  Reading is fundamental.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:03:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This truth will offend some, but it is true! (2.00 / 1)

Obama saying Kerry, Kennedy and Patrick should vote at the Convention the way their state has voted in the Primary is one of many documented instances where Obama provides lip service to a topic which he knows is precisely that--something over which he maintains virtually no control whatsoever!

He might as well just come out and say: "I'm saying these words for dramatic effect while concurrently realizing that this means little or nothing in terms of my personal ability to truly influence any result here."

There's a definitive pattern here on Obama's part which dates as least as far back to his earliest comments and criticisms of Bush and the Iraqi war. Or, do you really think that Obama's short-term, stated sentiments against the war back then were actually made by Obama with any sense, whatsoever, of his ability to affect the outcome of a particular injustice or problem given his position at the time?


by bobswern on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:40:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This truth will offend some, but it is true! (none / 0)

Can you provide one quote from Obama or his campaign saying that SD's should vote the way their states voted.

I've heard them say that the SD's shouldn't overturn the leader of elected delegates, but never heard them say the state thing.

One is all I ask.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This truth will offend some, but it is true! (none / 0)

Your failure to respond to substantive questions is a "definitive pattern here" on your part.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually... (none / 0)

...my failure to respond was a byproduct of going to bed when you were up writing this at 3AM in the morning.

Based upon your pattern of targeted confrontation, and the fact that you started attacking me, personally, when I didn't respond to you immediately (at 3AM; which is about as dysfunctional as it gets around here IMHO, in terms of your posturing) tells me that it's a waste of time engaging in discourse with someone that's being disingenuous.

So, no, I'm not going to respond. In fact, I'm going to make a mental note to ignore you from now on!


by bobswern on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So who will walk the talk? (2.00 / 1)

Ratifying is not deciding.

Expecting the SDs to vote in line with the pledged delegate majority is actually expecting the SDs to vote overwhelmingly for Obama, ratifying the decision, making a close call not a close call, and making convention hijinks pointless. The SDs serve the interests of the party, and squeaker results are not in the interest of the party, nor are convention floor fights, nor is overturning the will of the people expressed through the pledged delegate count.


by letterc on Wed May 28, 2008 at 01:59:20 AM EST

Linc (none / 0)

How can you dish out this (very rational) advice:

So please, my fellow Clinton supporters, rise above.  Do not play the game.  Do not engage in the gotcha politics.  I think Hillary Clinton would expect better of us.

... and then go and recommend a diary that flies right in the face of the very message you were conveying?


by apd on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:03:32 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

No offense to the diarist, but it is very poor form to publish quotations and no sources.

In all seriousness, I think MyDD should make that a requirement of all diaries.


by NeverNude on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:08:42 AM EST

for the record... (none / 0)

Obama's advantage among superdelegates is now very close, proportionally, to his advantage in pledged delegates, exactly as it should be...

Which, for those deliberately misunderstanding his statement, is what he meant. The national choice of superdelegates should not overturn the preference selected in the elections.


by Casuist on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:13:17 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

It is as over now as it was in 1992..

http://www.jedreport.com/2008/05/in-apri l-92-c-1.html


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Wed May 28, 2008 at 02:22:36 AM EST

Good points but... (none / 0)

At the risk of sounding fatalistic, I don't think anyone will ever bother to hold Obama or Brazile at their word.  They've gotten away with murder thus far and that's not going to change.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:27:16 AM EST

Re: Good points but... (none / 0)

Oh come on now.  Harold Ickes has morphed into a Champion of Democracy (TM) overnight, all because he switched employers.  


by rfahey22 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 03:34:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good points but... (2.00 / 1)

Bullshit.

- Remove all the superdelegates from the game and Obama has won.

  • Let them cast their votes according to their wishes, and Obama has won.
  • Have them vote according to their states, and Obama has won.

No scenario with the superdelegates or without them, in which Obama doesn't win. As such, it's not he who needs them to overrule the results of the primary season, it's Clinton.

Just admit that.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:22:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry about losing, (none / 0)

but you don't have to be so damn bitter about it.

Cheer up!  President Obama will do great things for America.


by Slim Tyranny on Wed May 28, 2008 at 08:59:41 AM EST

I have a serious question (none / 0)

I read your blockquote which is as follows:  

Obama this week warned Super-delegates to vote the way their states have voted, "if this contest comes down to super-delegates, we are going to be able to say we have more pledged delegates, which means the Democratic voters have spoken. Those super-delegates, those party insiders would have to think long and hard how they would approach the nomination."

I have a question...where did the words just before the Obama quote actually come from?  I mean the part that reads

this week warned Super-delegates to vote the way their states have voted
 I say this because what followed doesn't exactly support this part of the quote.


by StrangeAnomaly on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:24:34 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

Yes, Donna Brazile should quit now.
by optimisticBoy on Wed May 28, 2008 at 09:46:57 AM EST

Re: So who will walk the talk? (none / 0)

The idea of Superdelegates voting with their states is fairly stupid, unless the SD happens to hold statewide office, since all the other delegates from that state are divided by proportional representation.  

They can vote their district (which could be the state for Senators and Governors), which would be fine, or they can vote their conscience, which would be fine.  I think what goes into that conscience vote would likely be personal preference, and things like both candidates are appealing to (majority of PDs, majority of votes cast, etc.).


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Wed May 28, 2008 at 11:35:51 AM EST


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