A Simple and Fair Solution for FL & MI

Nothing anyone says to me will convince me that the fight to seat the delegates from Florida and Michigan (my home state) is nothing less than a fight for the voting rights of the 2.3 million people who turned out for their state primaries in January.  The voters did not set the dates - and major efforts have been made to set things right when the states, the DNC and Hillary's campaign tried to work out some sort of re-vote in each state.

There's a great article on Politico today that offers up a solution to the questions that will be taken up by the Rules and Bylaws Committee of the DNC (RBC) on May 31st, and I think it's worth a mention here.  It might also be worth passing on to the members of the RBC - just in case they still have an open mind where my family's voting rights are concerned.

The members of the RBC have a decision to make and it's not just about the fate of these votes or the outcome of the primaries. It is about whether we'll stand behind our most fundamental values as Democrats and as Americans. It's about whether we'll  move forward as a team - as a party united in the fight to win Florida and Michigan (my home state) and win back the White House in November.

After all - elections are held to determine the will of the people right?  Not a handful of folks lucky enough to be on the inside track within the party.  How anyone on the RBC could think they have the right to dismiss the wishes of 2.3 million Americans... well it just doesn't sound like something Democrats would do.

Check it out...

A proposed solution for Fla. and Mich

The legal principle supporting that solution is pretty simple. In U.S. contract law, the party breaching a contract usually has the right to "cure" the violation during the term of the contract. But if the other party stands in the way of that cure, the breaching party cannot be further sanctioned -- and certainly, as a matter of fairness, the party preventing the cure should not stand to benefit.

That is, in fact, what happened in 2008 to Michigan and Florida. Those states violated the party rules when they scheduled their primaries before Feb. 5. But then in March, elected officials and party leaders in both states were willing to "cure" -- i.e., to hold new primaries and raise the money privately to pay for them. In Michigan, Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Sen. Carl Levin proposed a "fire house" primary in June, in which voters could revote at local fire houses or libraries. In Florida, Sen. Bill Nelson and others supported a revote by mailed ballots and perhaps also offering the fire house alternative for those voters who preferred to vote in person.

Now you might recall that the proposals were backed by both Hillary and the DNC, and that Chairman Dean said the re-votes would bring the states back into compliance with the DNC rules that everyone's so quick to point to when they argue for the disenfranchisement of 2.3 million voters.  The only person standing in the way of that compliance was Sen. Obama.  As much as Hillary might encourage Obama to get on board with these efforts, he dug in his heels and refused, knowing it would rob my family of their right to be heard at our party's convention this summer.  His only concern was in keeping Hillary from gaining additional delegates.  

Now the Obama campaign would say that they neither objected nor approved; they just raised "concerns." That is a fact. But here is an unavoidable inference from other undeniable political facts: Had Obama instructed those supporters in Michigan and Florida who were opposed to the revotes to support them, and joined with Clinton in endorsing the revotes, the new rounds of voting would have occurred.

Can anyone seriously argue against that inference? Or that the Obama campaign, by referring to vague concerns for weeks about the revote proposals without offering to sit down with Clinton campaign, Florida, and Michigan Democratic officials to work them out, was more intent on playing out the clock and killing the chance of any revotes than finding solutions to permit the revotes to occur?

They had the money to conduct the re-votes, so that wasn't the issue.  Still, here we are, faced with the chance that voters in those two key states will walk away from our nominee if they're votes aren't counted at 100% - their delegates seated at the convention - and our candidate respecting their voting rights just as he would any other American's.

The article then goes on to offer up a possible solution, starting with looking at what the voters said they wanted (good idea in any civilized society - yeah?)...

In Michigan, Clinton received 55 percent of the vote. According to Thegreenpapers.com, she thus should receive 73 pledged delegates based on that percentage.

What about the 50 remaining uncommitted delegates, and 7 collectively cast for Sen. Chris Dodd and Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich, who were also on the ballot?

snip

The Rules Committee has several options. The fairest would be to allocate those 57 pledged delegates, to Clinton and Obama by the same ratio of their standing to one another in the average of the most recent Michigan statewide polls prior to the Jan. 15 primary. Or perhaps one Solomonic compromise, more generous to Obama than to Clinton, would be to divide the remaining delegates approximately 50-50 between the two of them, 28-27 (giving Clinton the extra delegate since she led in all the latest statewide polls prior to Jan. 15).

Florida's compromise solution is even easier. Clinton won 50 percent of the vote, while Obama won 33 percent of the 1.7 million Democratic votes cast. According to Thegreenpapers.com, that would give Clinton 105 delegates and Obama 69 delegates. That leaves 11 elected John Edwards delegates yet to decide, as well as 13 still unpledged superdelegates. (Eight supers have already decided for Clinton and five have decided for Obama).

They then move on to why Florida and Michigan (my home state) will be crucial to our party's chances of winning back the White House in November.

Practical politics: Winning the November election

Such solutions for the seating of Michigan and Florida, rooted as they are on neutral and long-standing principles of law and equity, are also required by practical political realities if the Democrats want to win the White House in 2008.

If more than 2.3 million Democrats in Michigan and Florida are told their votes didn't count even though their party leaders were willing to revote, that could anger them, to put it mildly. If they blame Obama for not supporting the revote while still blocking a fair solution by the Rules Committee, essentially not permitting their January votes to count, they are likely to be angrier still -- if, that is, he is the Democratic Party's nominee. In a close election that could mean the difference between the Democratic candidate carrying or losing Michigan and Florida.

Is it worth risking the White House in November by not accepting this fair solution?

I don't think so -- too much, such as the Supreme Court and Roe v. Wade, hangs in the balance.

Do you really want to risk pissing off 2.3 million voters, along with the other Dems who'll be so pissed at this blatant disregard for the wishes of the folks in Florida and Michigan (my home state) that they'll stay home in November because they're so pissed?

Are you so intent on disenfranchising your fellow voters - Americans - Democrats that you'd reject this fair and simple solution?

I'd have to say no way in hell.  There's just too much at stake guys - starting with the Supreme Court and our right to choose.



Display:


This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (1.61 / 36)

Nothing more.

Nothing less.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:52:48 PM EST

What about (1.85 / 20)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The people (1.80 / 21)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who didn't vote because (1.80 / 20)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They were told it wouldn't count? (1.83 / 24)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WTF Is Your Problem? (1.31 / 32)


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WTF Is Your Problem? (2.00 / 4)

People HAD the right to vote.  My problem is with the use of the word disenfranchised or voting rights.

Both of those are going to be huge issues this year in the general election.  People will actually be denied their right to vote on specious grounds.  These will primarily be Democratic voters.  Voters in both FL and MI WERE able to vote.  Their votes WERE counted.  Their votes mattered in every race and every issue save one, the primary.  They KNEW that going in.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 5)

Nope. That's why they filed a lawsuit.

Voters in both FL and MI WERE able to vote.  Their votes WERE counted.  


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 6)

and the lawsuit will likely get tossed...

People can sue McDonalds for making them fat... doesn't mean they will win it.

Or, as the DNC said:

"two US District Courts in Florida have found, and as the Supreme Court has consistently recognized, national political parties have a constitutionally protected right to manage and conduct their own internal affairs, including the enforcement of delegate selection rules."


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:38:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 4)

Or, as the plaintiffs said:

[Senator Steve Geller, Obama backer Percy Johnson, and Clinton backer Barbara Effman] said their objective is to get the will of the 1.75 million Florida Democrats who voted in the primary reflected in the state's delegation, and to have that delegation count.

Failure to do that would send the message that the national Democrats don't care about Florida Democratic voters, they said. And the repercussions would be so great that Democrats in the fall might not bother voting in the general election or might actually vote for Republican John McCain, Geller said.

"This is not about the Hillary Clinton campaign. This is not about the Barack Obama campaign," Effman said. "This is about Democracy."

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/pol itics/broward/blog/2008/05/geller_files_ federal_lawsuit_i.html


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 6)

Be that as it may, it will get thrown out because the Democratic Party is a private organization and not subject to electoral law.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (none / 0)

On the constitutional claims, that is correct.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:58:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (none / 0)

Again... they can sue until the proverbial cows come home... does not mean they will win.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 5)

Again, you can make up excuses for disenfranchising millions of voters, but that doesn't mean it's right or that they don't have a legal remedy.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 2)

Well, they certainly don't have a legal remedy under the VRA.  It's clear that you don't have a legal background.  This will get tossed, if the R&B's decision doesn't moot it first.


by rfahey22 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (none / 0)

and, again... we were not disenfranchised.  We had the ability to vote.  We were not turned away at the polls.  They counted the votes for every race, including the primary... they just did not assign any delegates as a result.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:44:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Steve Geller looks like a cow to me! (none / 0)

sounds like one too!


by Bucky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Steve Geller was complicit in the first place (none / 0)

The guy did nothing to stop the date change and everything to facilitate it.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 2)

They filed one in Tampa and lost.  They will lose the next one too.  Indeed, it would not shock me if the lawyer who filed it were sanctioned.  The 11th Circuit has already ruled on this.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 4)

You frankly don't know what you're talking about. If you're a lawyer telling such a whopper, you would be disbarred.

The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals actually invited the plaintiff to refile or amend his suit now that he has voted in the primary.

The very first sentences of the Appeals Court order read as follows:

This appeal raises a number of interesting and potentially significant questions concerning the impact of the Equal Protection Clause on an individual's right to vote in a primary election, the extent of the Fourteenth Amendment's state action requirement, and the associational interests of national political parties.  However, because the plaintiff Victor DiMaio undeniably lacks standing to bring this suit, we affirm the district court's determination that this case is nonjusticiable, construe the district court's dismissal of the case to be without prejudice and, therefore, dismiss the appeal without prejudice for lack of subject matter jurisdiction.

http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/op s/200714816.pdf

Look up "without prejudice"in your Black's Law Dictionary.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disenfranchsed voters violates VRA (2.00 / 1)

You're right.  I was not aware of the '07 suit and assumed it was the '08 suit that went up.  It is still pending.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WTF Is Your Problem? (2.00 / 4)

Your candidate's faux concern for voting rights and your parroting of falsehoods and half truths.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My problem (2.00 / 1)

is people who ignore Clinton's prior statements on the issue.

Who argue that Clinton should get delegates in Michigan that the voters there did not intend for her to get.

My problem is Clinton people who LIE ABOUT THE CLINTON position on the issue.

Or who lie about Obama being to blame for this.

For example, you do know that the Florida Congressional Delegation opposed a recount in Florida.

You know that.

And you don't care.

But you are playing GAMES WITH MY VOTE.


by fladem on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My problem (2.00 / 1)

Also add people who blind-cite a column by Lanny Davis, a Clinton adivisor and leading Clintonite talking head, in presenting a 'fair and realistic' solution for FL and MI.

This diarist and other HRC supporters will be disappointed to find out, after 1 June, that the formula for seating FL and MI doesn't really matter. Obama will maintain an overwhelming delegate advantage and need a small portion of the SDs to get to 2210, if that is what's decided.  For HRC this isn't about voting rights etc., its about maintaining mathematical viability and a few more days or weeks while hoping/praying that somehow Obama disqualifies himself for the nomnination.  


by Kensingtonbill on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:58:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WTF Is Your Problem? (none / 0)

Maybe his problem is that you never respond to criticism or questions about your diaries, other than to say "WTF is your problem?"

Your lack of responses and engagement really undercuts your credibility.


Obama in November.
by Artemis Jax on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 7)

my family in MI knew about it and they still voted in the democratic primary.

those dems who switched over to the republican side - well, they got to vote.  We will never know if they REALLY wanted to vote for Mitt or if they just wanted to cause trouble.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 7)

Indeed, they were told it didn't count, including by Clinton. Obviously, many people still voted, but Michigan turn out was awful compared to every other primary except Florida. Was this because Michiganers don't care about politics? No, it was because millions of people thought it wouldn't count, or thought a primary in which they couldn't vote for the candidate they supported was junk, so they didn't bother.

The fact that your relatives did vote doesn't change the rest of that one wit.


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 4)

MI had the highest turnout ever in their primary/caucus history

just because it wasn't like other states, doesn't mean they had low turnout.  


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 5)

Um, hadn't they always caucused prior to 2008?  Isn't the switch to a primary the very reason that the turnout was higher than before?

If I remember that correctly, you're not being very intellectually honest here.

Moreover, people told the voters of Michigan it would not count, including Senator Clinton.

How am I supposed to tell when Senator Clinton wants me to listen to her?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 2)

republicans had primaries;  dems had weird shit going back & forth.  There is a great pdf I found on MI and historical primary info

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MichPr esPrimRefGuide_20863_7.pdf

and yes, when I lived in MI back in '84, it was caucuses.  But the point is that MI in 2008 had the 3rd highest turnout in their history overall.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 9)

More people turned out in KY than Michigan, and Michigan has six million more people in it than Kentucky.

Michigan had the lowest turnout percentage of any race to date this year.

You were saying?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 2)

I am not comparing MI to other states.  Look at its history and you will see that it was the third highest turnout ever.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 4)

You're just going to put your fingers in your ears and shout LALALALALALALALALALA, aren't you.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 2)

Busted.  Cold busted bein' a dope.


by deminva on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here is a great link about MI (2.00 / 6)

In order to distribute Michigan's state-level districts, we first need to estimate its turnout. The three states that share a border with Michigan -- Indiana, Ohio, and Wisconsin -- all held open primaries, and they all had very consistent turnout figures. In Indiana, 27.0 percent of the eligible voting-age population voted in the Democratic primary. In Ohio, that figure was also 27.0 percent, and it was 26.3 percent in Wisconsin.

By contrast, Michigan's turnout in its unsanctioned Democratic primary was 594,398, or only 7.8 percent of its eligible voting age population. That is about three-and-a-half times less than it "should" have been, based on the patterns in Indiana, Ohio and Wisconsin.

Michigan: What would have happened?


by Bucky on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 4)

In virtually every state including red states Democratic turnout was more then double Republican turnout. Yet in MI more Republicans voted and in FL the Democratic numbers did not come close to double the Republican vote. Millions stayed home and did not vote because Hillary and the entire party said their vote would not count.

You have to compare numbers this election cycle. FL and MI stand out as underperforming all the other states in Dem turnout. When it suited her Hillary said publicly don't count FL & MI and it would be all over by Feb 5. Her current position has nothing to do with concern for voters it is transparently self-serving. Does she think like with her Bosnia fabrications that no one will check the video tape?


by hankg on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:12:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

The fact that you are even arguing this makes you and your argument look foolish.  The fact is that the primary was a mess and that many people didnt vote or voted in the republican primary because at least there their vote would count for something.

Just because you can find a few quotes that substantiate your spin, does not make it true and does not convince anyone.  These people got screwed, and seating them as is, or even as suggested by the above diary is not near a "fair" solution.  If you count these results you then "disenfranchise" all those that were told the results would not count.

To not recognize that and argue it is not true, or that it was somehow these people's fault after they were TOLD it wouldnt count is complete bs.

The good thing though, is the more you argue this, the more people realize that... so by all means... continue.


by herenow on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 2)

also, are you trying to state that only states with higher turnouts should be counted?

I don't care if only one person showed up to the poll and voted for Dennis.  That person's vote should count.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

Of course, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Again, it seems Clinton/Clinton supporters want us to believe nothing was out of the ordinary in this primary, at all. The facts tell a different story. What do you say to the hundreds of thousands of people who stayed home figuring it wouldn't count? You have to admit it's a distinct possibility that many people stayed home. So, what do we say about them? They were told by everyone the primary didn't matter. And I've yet to hear a response from a Clinton supporter to address this issue.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

You know that's not true.  (Caucuses?)


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

I thought caucuses were unfair and didn't count?

But it was the lowest Democratic primary turnout this year. To act as if everything was on the up and up is pretty bogus. Seriously, I've found very few Clinton supporters willing to "man up" to this fact. It'd make it easier to find a compromise if someone would say "Yep, the whole thing was messed up, a bunch of people who might've voted otherwise didn't, and if the DNC, Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, and all the gang on the RBC committee had their shit together and hadn't dealt with this so hamfistedly, we wouldn't be here."

But this would fly in the face of the argument being made here for political benefit, and it's ridiculous.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

Caucuses are unfair but they do count.  That's always been my position.  Whatever "unfairness" one might raise against Michigan or Florida, the same applies to the bizarre (to put it lightly) caucus system.  International election standards?  Check: No secret ballots and open to contemporaneous public pressure.  Arbitrarily diminishes voter turnout?  Check.  Prone to fraud?  Check.  Open to coercion?  Check.  Lawsuits?  Check.  Lopsided results with low turnout?  Check.  Certified by the Secretary of State (or comparable officials in overseas)?  Check.

What you say above is true and I never denied it.  The mixed signals and confusion in Michigan probably did have an adverse effect on turnout.  We can't gauge who would have voted otherwise, who they would have voted for, how many actually  did hear they wouldn't count, how many believed it, how many didn't believe it but voted anyway, how many would have still opted to participate in the GOP primary which at that time was much more relevant, etc.  But these concerns are not so egregious that they would call for the wholesale nullification of the certified vote, just as we don't call to omit delegates from Washington, or Texas' caucus (lawsuit notwithstanding).  Every election has "what if's" and elements of unfairness and even low-level fraud.  It's not a perfect system.  

But we can't start cherrypicking which states we think were "unfair" and exclude them but simultaneously turning a blind eye to other unfair states and including them.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:54:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

Except the "unfair" characterization of caucuses is purely one of your own opinion, whereas Michigan's primary was clearly unfair to everyone- and no surprise because, unlike in caucuses, Michigan didn't follow the rules. So it's more than fair to not count them- or, if we are going to count them, to do it in a manner that's going to for best for all involved, while recognizing we screwed the pooch on execution, and making sure it doesn't ever happen again.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

I don't agree.  I find the caucus system to be a lot more failing in its ability to gauge a state's intent than the Michigan primary.  I find that results-oriented thinkers selectively hone in on the flaws of the Michigan election while willfully turning a blind eye to the defecits in the caucus system, merely because Michigan voted for Clinton while (almost) every caucus state voted for Obama by supremely strange margins.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

No, and I'm not saying caucuses don't have problems. I'm saying they followed the rules this go-round, and Michigan didn't. If Obama won Michigan, I would be just as set against having them count at full strength, without penalty- even if roles were reversed. In fact, roles reversed, if Obama did this, I'd be way turned off, and probably would've gone to support Bob Barr.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:37:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

Seating Michigan and Florida isn't inconsistent with the Delegate Selection Rules.  By contrast, the DSR is the exact body of (quasi-)law that provides the means for seating them fully.  Without those means, the likewise "in technical violation" primaries in NH and SC and the caucus in Iowa would have to, by rule, be discarded.  When no contest is mandatorily excluded by the rules, then "rules compliance" is not an effective standard for gauging their merits of inclusion.  

This is getting to the point where I'd almost rather Obama had won Michigan and Florida so I could accept we had a legitimate nominee. I could acknowledge a fair loss and support the Democratic candidate wholeheartedly as I always have in presidential elections (I'm also very vocal online & offline in my support and have done volunteer work).  I've always said that I'd support him if he legitimately won.  But I've reserved that if he has to rely on a coup negating the votes of Michigan and Florida, my main area of interest this election, it might be too bitter a pill to swallow.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Explain it to me how the caucuses were more fair, (none / 0)

Our isse with Florida and especially Michigan is that they did not follow the rules established by the DNC.  Therefore, the candidates did not compete there and thus it was unfair by almost anyone's assessment.  You have to admit that them campaigning would have had a effect one way or the other.  Moreover, Michigan did not have all the candidates on the ballot.  That's like playing the Super Bowl without the Patriots; the outcome might not be different, but nobody woult say that it was an equal contest.

So explain "I find the caucus system to be a lot more failing in its ability to gauge a state's intent than the Michigan primary" to me.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay (2.00 / 1)

I'm guessing your subject line was an inadvertent typo, since I don't find the caucuses to have been fair or representative, but I make typos all the time so no harm done.  

As I stated above, five states had rules noncompliant primaries and only two were excluded.  Given that the rules themselves provide the means necessary for seating all delegations fully, they are not persuasive authority for dismissing Michigan and Florida.  

Campaigning may have effected turnout and the results in those primaries.  Different time-frames may have effected the turnout and results in caucus states.  Secret ballots may have insulated minority-viewpoint voters in caucus (here Clinton supporters) from contemporaneous group assimilation.  More acute security measures may have diminished the widespread (and underreported) attempts at fraud.  Given the rules provide the basis for seating all delegations fully, the only metric we are left with for exclusion is "fairness."  Michigan's election was less than optimal, I acknowledge that.  Florida's was fairly non-problematic and actually had very high turnout.  Whatever theoretical concern there may have been that the votes wouldn't count, clearly Florida voters didn't believe it; who, after all, would believe the Democratic party would do something so draconian to inculpable Florida voters only 8 years after the 2000 debacle?  

Since by all international and other universal  standards of a free and fair election, the caucus states are just as much in stark violation, if not more so, than Michigan, evenhandedness requires they must either all be counted or all excluded.  

And for the record, Obama's absence from the Michigan ballot was his own conscious decision.  Even after realizing it may have been a mistake, the Michigan Senate rejected a measure to restore his name to the ballot.  Hence he continues to delegitimize an election that he sabotaged only because he knew he would lose there overwhelmingly (which he did).  We all know about his strident efforts to block revotes in both Michigan and Florida.  These are states from whose voters Obama clearly does not want to hear.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

B.S. (none / 0)

I quoted you saying that "[You found] the caucus system has a lot more failing in its ability to gauge a state's intent than the Michigan primary."  So how in the world can you honestly say "I'm guessing your subject line was an inadvertent typo, since I don't find the caucuses to have been fair or representative, but I make typos all the time so no harm done?"  Did you forget what you wrote before you responded to me?

Why did the majority of candidates take their names off the ballot in Michigan?  Even if Michigan is Obama's fault, how is it an accurate reflection of the will of the state to exclude all the supporters of Obama?  Isn't that what you Alegre are calling for when you ask to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida and count their votes?  


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:04:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: B.S. (none / 0)

This was your subject line:

"Explain it to me how the caucuses were more fair"

Given that I never said caucuses were fair or "more" fair, I gave you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you meant something else, something that wouldn't so starkly misquote me or misperceive my obvious stance on this issue.  

And how I get this highly charged defensive response from you.  

"Why did the majority of candidates take their names off the ballot in Michigan?"

I didn't realize that four out of eight candidates was a "majority" but... hey, whatever makes you happy.  

"Even if Michigan is Obama's fault, how is it an accurate reflection of the will of the state to exclude all the supporters of Obama?  Isn't that what you Alegre are calling for when you ask to seat the delegates from Michigan and Florida and count their votes?"

Clearly you're not familiar with my views on this topic and instead have resorted to imputing the views of another poster onto me.  

In the future, please refrain from posting indignant profane ("B.S.") responses to my contributions here if you can't even muster the courtesy to know or understand my arguments.  Thank you.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gov. Dean thinks Caucuses are unfair, too: (none / 0)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9B07E2D91F31F93AA35752C0A9629C8B6 3

[BLOCKQUOTE]The tapes show Dr. Dean arguing that the lengthy caucus process in which neighbors gather to debate their preferences is inconvenient for ordinary people.

''Say I'm a guy who's got to work for a living, and I've got kids,'' he said on the show on Jan. 15, 2000. ''On a Saturday, is it easy for me to go cast a ballot and spend 15 minutes doing it, or do I have to sit in a caucus for eight hours?''

A moment later, he added, ''I can't stand there and listen to everyone else's opinion for eight hours about how to fix the world.'''
[/BLOCKQUOTE]

And so do I.  I went to a caucus in the tiny town where we lived.  9 people showed up.  We got to chose 3 delegates to the state convention.

4 of the nine people were for candidate A
4 of the nine people were for candidate B
1 was for candidate C.

Guess what?  That caucus sent 2 delegates for A and one for C.  That's fair?

Hint: coercion and misuse of the rules by the precinct captain were involved.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Tue May 27, 2008 at 05:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

off-topic: FYI (1.00 / 1)

You need angle brackets around your blockquotes and other HTML for them to work in these comments.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: off-topic: FYI (none / 0)

Thank you!  I'm new to mydd, and haven't yet found a reference, if there is one, for their auto format commands.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Wed May 28, 2008 at 10:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: off-topic: FYI (none / 0)

No problem! Um, incidentally, a rating of "1" or "0" is bad. See the guidelines:

#  * Do not troll rate (rating as 1) another user's comment unless it is a comment that is an attack on another user. Do not hide (rating as 0) a comment unless it is an abuse of the guidelines. Abusing this privilege will result in all your ratings being erased and/or getting a warning, or being banned.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

I feel that you are being willfully blind.  A reasonable person would take into account the fact that Michigan was told, by various sources, innumberable times that the primary would not count.  To chalk that up to "what ifs, elements of unfairness and low level fraud" is stepping into the obtuse.


by shalca on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:21:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

With all due respect, willful blindness would be excoriating the Michigan election on the basis of its perceived flaws while blithely turning away from the serious problems in the caucus system.  

It's results-oriented thinking.

Obama results-oriented:  Count all of the caucuses but don't count Michigan and Florida.

Clinton results-oriented:  Count Michigan and Florida but don't count the caucuses.

Fair (inclusive): Count everything.

Fair (exclusive): Exclude everything.  

I adopt the Fair (inclusive) approach and have never wavered.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

The flaws with Michigan and Florida, mainly that the electorate was told prior to the primary vote that their votes would not count towards the election are facts, not perceptions.

The flaws you percieve to occur in caucuses are your perception, because to date, I have not seen you provide any evidence that voters were not given the opportunity to vote their choice in caucus states.

You are comparing apples and oranges and saying we should count all of them as oranges.


by shalca on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

Again, the lack of a secret ballot (lacking in most caucuses) is a flout of international standards for a free and fair election.  The information barrier and time constraints caucuses place on voters are unheard of in a democracy.  

It's not my "opinion" or "perception" that most caucuses lack secret ballots.  It's also not my "opinion" or "perception" that arbitrary voter barriers like hours+ long time commitments are anathema to democracy.  

I really doubt one could muster the chutzpah to defend the caucus system under objective circumstances.  They are fundamentally unfair loopholes in the system.  The outlandish lopsided results in the caucus states, especially contrasted with same-state primaries, are so extreme as to suggest wrongdoing on their face.  Res ipsa loquitur  We all know this intellectually, but many Obama supporters aspire to divert scrutiny from the caucus system because it is so indefensible.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:20:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

This isn't an election, it's a nomination.

This is a private organization taking votes to determine the nominee.  No public office is gained from these primaries, just the position as the party's selected candidate.


by masterxi43 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

And their part of the rules that both candidates agreed to heed at the beginning of this process, part of the rules that democratic legislations in each state agreed to, and I never heard people complain so much about the caucus process until this primary.  I'd be happy to defend caucuses, which I feel have a place in small states.

Michigan and Florida are separate issues, and simply because you feel that one accepted and legitimate process is an unfair loophole, does not make it logical or right that we must include illegitimate primaries in the nomination process.


by shalca on Tue May 27, 2008 at 06:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How about? (none / 0)

Fair (by the rules):  Count everything according to the rules.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:19:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

Such "perceived" flaws like the fact that no campaigning was allowed?

I'd believe everyone would agree that's a globally recognized flaw, and a much more serious one than most of the things claimed by caucuses-opponents that nobody had complained about before Clinton had started losing in them.


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

The lack of a secret ballot is a universally recognized flaw in an election.  Group voting is also not considered free or fair.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (none / 0)

That's an easy one.

If it helps Hillary, you listen to her.  If it doesn't help her, ignore what she says.  


by ProgressiveDL on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's Not Actually True (none / 0)

We had higher turnout in 1972 than we did in 2008.


by TooFolkGR on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They were told it wouldn't count? (2.00 / 1)

If they didn't want to vote for Mitt, they shouldn't have done it. Certainly nobody MADE them do it.


No way. No how. No McCain. . . . . . If you can ship a job to Bangalore India, you can ship a job to Flint Michigan.
by NJ Liberal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speaking For Myself Only (none / 0)

I did it to cause trouble.


by TooFolkGR on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (2.00 / 6)

for my posts.

I'm honored.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (2.00 / 7)

Well, this was a happy coincidence. :^)

But seriously, how is it fair to leave out all the people who didn't vote because they were told their votes wouldn't count? Isn't this also disenfranchisement?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (2.00 / 2)

That's why a re-vote would make sense.


Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
by stan81747 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:09:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (2.00 / 3)

Would have made sense. Sadly, it is way too late to do one now. I think Clinton and Obama are equally to blame (Clinton spent February and half of March insisting that the primaries that had been run should be seated in full, shutting down the process of getting started on a revote and blocked the suggestion of doing a caucus, forcing the process to go through the legislatures, Obama raised concerns and objections to several proposals, both candidates had somewhat legitimate reasons for their objections, but they both doomed the possibility of a revote). Mostly I blame MI, FL, and plain bad luck (if this hadn't ended up being a very close election, it would have been easy for MI and FL to hold irrelevant caucuses after a nominee was basically decided, and no one would have cared).


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please (2.00 / 2)

No more of these reality based posts!!!!!!

The only fair solution is no delegate penalty at all, Hillary gets 100% of the pledged delegates in Michigan and Florida and the supers from those states must be compelled to endorse her as well.

Hillary is doing this for us!!!!! And she will win this thing!!!!!!  So LISTEN UP!!!!!!


by pattonbt on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You forgot (none / 0)

the

DONATE NOW!!!!!!!!!!

Line


Guess I HR'd someone that I shouldn't have (wish I knew who/how/why, but no admin will talk to me). Have a positive thought instead.
by Robert in WV on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (none / 0)

It's no worse than the voter barriers caucus state citizens experienced.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (none / 0)

Were any caucus goers told their vote wouldn't count?


by interestedbystander on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:52:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this part (2.00 / 2)

Had Obama instructed those supporters in Michigan and Florida who were opposed to the revotes to support them, and joined with Clinton in endorsing the revotes, the new rounds of voting would have occurred.


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:58:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

should say (1.40 / 5)


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wait for it (1.50 / 6)


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ok (2.00 / 3)

Had Obama instructed those supporters in Michigan and Florida who were opposed to the revotes to support them no mater what hillary proposed , and joined with Clinton in endorsing the revotes as designed by the clinton team, the new rounds of voting would have occurred.


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ok (2.00 / 3)

Everybody gets some of the blame. If Clinton hadn't wasted six weeks insisting that the primaries that already happened should be counted, there would have been more time to work out a solution. If she hadn't blocked the option of caucuses, there would have been a revote.


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ok (2.00 / 3)

linc and crew deleted the comments between both version of the quote.

The original assumes that the Clinton camp was arguing in good faith for a re vote which is too big an assumption for anyone paying attention.


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ok (none / 0)

Of course it was in good faith. These are progressive Democrats we're talking about.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ok (none / 0)

Ha!  


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow - You Must LIE In Wait (2.00 / 4)

He must have gotten tired of you talking to yourself at the beginning of all of your diaries.


by Deano963 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about (1.80 / 5)

getting lost?  Would ya?


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ratings abuse (none / 0)


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

comments abuse (2.00 / 3)

and you know it.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lol (2.00 / 1)

unfortunately that isn't against the rules.

As the diarist reminds us every day.


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK (1.66 / 3)

let me take off the HRs. I will then be sure to clog up every single Obama diary possible, like a childish git.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK (none / 0)

i think alegre gets the point.

If there is a particularly Obama diarist that has an irritating habit you would like to protest within the rules, rock on.


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK (2.00 / 1)

Wow, you just had a break through and realize just what you've become.

Congrats.


by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK (none / 0)

my comment was for linc


by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What about (2.00 / 1)

I've uprated all these HR'd posts, since four HRs seems a bit much for something as innocuous as this.


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those comments (2.00 / 4)

were made with the express purpose of clogging up the thread.  It IS the definition of trolling.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Those comments (2.00 / 8)

Actually, I think they were made as an homage to the author's history of posting the first three or four comments in her own diaries.  So if THIS is clogging up the diary...well, then that is too.

Personally, I don't think either is a big deal.  And certainly not HR worthy.


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Those comments (2.00 / 8)

Thank you! The format was a hat tip toward alegre's opening post style. Silly, yes, but no more than the typical start to these diaries.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:15:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rec (2.00 / 1)


by ameridad on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was actually hoping she'd be more (2.00 / 5)

likely to answer the question if (for once) she couldn't pretend not to have seen it. :^)

You might notice she hasn't made any attempt at answering the question so far (whether in the multi-post or single-post version).

Why is that?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She? (2.00 / 1)

How dare you assume. You sexist!


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 4)

If you agree this is about voting rights - send me an email and I'll get you a list of who to contact with your comments.

Thanks!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 18)

If you cared about voting rights, you would have diaried this in the fall.  You would not be creating a situation in which Hillary "fairly" gets 75% of the delegates out of MI.  You would be acknowledging the many individuals in MI and FL who took the party at their word that the contests that were held would not count and stayed home (or voted for Mitt Romney) because of that.  You would not be talking about awarding delegates based on polls.

You can pretend this about enfranchisement, but most of realize this is simply about benefiting Hillary Clinton.  Sadly, I'm almost tempted to sign off your silly idea of fair, if only because it WILL NOT CHANGE THE OUTCOME of this race.  I could see Hillary trying to claim her share of uncommitted in her meaningless and unreflective "popular vote" tally though if this were accepted.

I'm sorry, but you are fooling noone as to your motivations except those that already agree with you, and even you and they, I suspect are only half kidding yourselves.


by Pragmatic Left on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 6)

Yeah, the diarist's proposal is laugh-worthy for MI and FL.  

In MI, somewhere around 40% of the voters who decided to cast a symbolic vote (and there were those who didn't bother), explicitly did not vote for Sen. Clinton despite her inclusion on the ballot.  And your proposal, alegre, would allot half of those votes to Sen. Clinton?  Isn't that, by definition, thwarting the will of those voters, who had the opportunity to vote for Hillary but didn't?  Talk about disenfranchisement....

And FL -- how will the DNC retain any authority over the scheduling of nomination votes if they withdraw all sanctions against the state? I like the 100% sanction. Your vote was counted, tabulated, and published, but sorry, Florida, the votes didn't have an impact on the nomination.  That's not a new situation for most states.  I live in California, and in most primary seasons (even including Sen. Clinton's ill-chosen 1992), my state's primary has been a beauty contest.  I got out there and voted, which I view as a civic duty, but rarely had much of a voice in the selection of a nominee. I could see a compromise in FL -- perhaps a 50% sanction, but no sanction?  Hardly much of a compromise.


by Twin Planets on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:29:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 6)

Their is NO constituional RIGHT to vote in a presidential primary.


by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

I think George Washington would be rolling in his grave if he saw not only the incredibly divided political parties that exist today, but the  divided factions within those parties.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If it's about voting rights, you wouldn't (2.00 / 4)

support Lanny Davis' proposal.

35% of those who voted had Obama as their #1 choice. Nobody who cared about "voting rights" could possibly make an argument that Hillary deserved more than 83 delegates


by bobdoleisevil on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is about democracy, dammit (2.00 / 2)

And part of democracy is not just counting votes but allowing each candidate a fair shot at the nomination.  It's why we have IA, NH, NV, and SC go first:  it's the only way a lesser-known, underfinanced underdog candidate has a chance to connect with the voters.  Otherwise, name television and name recognition dominate, and candidates such as Chris Dodd, Mike Huckabee, and Joe Biden are forced to the side of the trail.  I want those people to have their best shot at the nomination, too.  

There's something profoundly democratic about watching a candidate shiver in the cold New Hampshire snow only to shake a voter's hand.


by Brad G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 13)

You're right, this is about voting rights... but not in the way you think.

It's about the right of the voter not to be lied to about his/her elections.  Every single candidate - including Hillary Clinton - said that this election would not count for anything.  The national party said this election would not count for anything.  Voters who trusted every single candidate and the national party and decided not to go to the polls for a gesture they were told was going to be meaningless have the right to have their voices heard too.

But when the opportunity to revote came up, Sen. Clinton would not accept any solution that allowed those who hadn't voted, or those who voted in the Republican primary, to participate.  She wanted to disenfranchise everyone who had trusted her, all the other candidates, and the national party.

Nevertheless, even with the Stalin Ballot, 45% of the voters in Michigan stood up and said "NO" to Hillary Clinton.  It would be a profound insult to their participation - and a clear violation of the Alegre Rule - to award any uncommitted delegates to Clinton.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is also about DUE PROCESS (2.00 / 14)

Due process of law is a fundamental right under our Constitution. It is about ensuring a fair process for all.  It is so important that the right is in TWO Amendments, the 5th and 14th.  

Hillary Clinton's scheme would violate the fundamental right of due process rights by disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of Michigan and Florida voters who did not vote because they were told their votes would not count.  

Hillary Clinton's scheme would violate the fundamental due process right of at least 500,000 African American voters who couldn't vote for the candidate of their choice.

Hillary Clinton's scheme would violate the fundamental due process right of Barack Obama, who would be punished for complying with the DNC rule, regardless of his motive.

A fundamental premise of due process is that a person cannot be punished for obeying the law.  That is what Hillary Clinton's scheme, does, however.  It punishes Obama for complying and respecting the rules of the DNC.  

Hillary Clinton's scheme to change the rules of the game in the 4th quarter is a gross violation of due process for millions of voters in the 48 states that complied with DNC rules and did not move up their primary.  

Running rough shod over due process and the rule of law can never be justified in a democracy.  I trust the DNC to come up with a reasonable solution that empowers voters AND is fair and consistent with the fundamental constitutional right of due process of law.  


by ProfessorReo on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 2)

Is this snark?  I think it must be...


by Pragmatic Left on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

Let's say it's "unintended snark."


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

People who chose to vote "uncommitted" (2.00 / 5)

rather than vote for Clinton supported Clinton, even as a second choice? Maybe 5% at best (well, 3% per the exit poll).

30% of Edwards supporters and 18% of Obama supporters voted for Clinton [because she was their second choice]. The not-Clinton voters chose to vote for uncommitted.

The exit polls showed 46% supported Clinton, 35% supported Obama

This is the stupidest thing you've ever written.


by bobdoleisevil on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And that's really saying something (1.50 / 4)

I didn't know they stacked shit that high.


by Joe Beese on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question, alegre (2.00 / 2)

Do you believe that MI and FL should have full voting rights on the party platform, vice presidency, etc. after they broke the rules?


by Brad G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lanny Davis... (2.00 / 5)

...authored this piece you cite, that explains alot.  


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 2)

Clinton campaign conference notes. 2/16/08

http://talkradionews.com/2008/02/clinton -campaign-conference-call-notes/

Question from the press? A new caucus in Michigan? Ickes: No because in 2004 only 160,000 people voted in the "firehouse primary". Over 600k have voted already. Fight not good for party or candidate--bitter fight not good--not well served by settling this at the convention. (Note: he said the opposite above) We will compete but see no need for a revote.


"More War Years! More War Years!" ~John McCain
by Tommy Flanagan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 2)

Debbie Wasserman-Shultz on Faux Noise, 3/10/08

HUME: In the Florida state senate, who introduced the bill to move the primary forward?

WASSERMAN-SCHULTZ: The bill was introduced by a Democratic member, a new Democratic member of the state senate.

HUME: And in the legislature, senate and house as well, how many Democrats voted against it?

WASSERMAN-SCHULTZ: Well, that's an inappropriate line of questioning, Brit, because that bill ultimately...

HUME: Well, wait a minute. Well, inappropriate or not...

WASSERMAN-SCHULTZ: Excuse me, Brit.

HUME: ... could you just answer the question?

WASSERMAN-SCHULTZ: Can I answer your question?

HUME: Yes. How many?

WASSERMAN-SCHULTZ: I would like to answer your question without you asking me another one, if you don't mind.

The legislation that was originally sponsored was amended into an overall election package that included the major provision to ensure that we could have manual recount and a paper trail. So this is a major election package that the change of a date in our primary was included in.

So the vote total was unanimous, but that was because there's no one in the Florida legislature that was going to vote against changing our voting system so that you could have a paper trail and make sure that every vote can be counted, unlike our touchscreen voting system right now which doesn't allow for that.

So to try to hang a unanimous vote on the fact that Democrats supported that -- that's misleading, because they supported it because they certainly weren't going to vote against making sure there was a paper trail in Florida.

HUME: I see. Well, all right. Then what's the fair way to settle it, in your judgment?

So, it made alot of sense to try to pass a law to ensure all their votes would be counted (touchscren paper trail) by bundling it with a vote on a bill that would ensure their votes wouldn't be counted.


"More War Years! More War Years!" ~John McCain
by Tommy Flanagan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:28:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

SNAP!  


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 1)

Nice diary, although the contract analogy is a bit misplaced.  There are better principles to support the full enfranchisement of FL/MI than the "cure the breach" theory from contracts, which is actually a lot messier in practice than the article suggests.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can you possibly support ... (none / 0)

... full voting rights on the party platform, etc. for jurisdictions that broke the rules?  At a minimum, if a scofflaw jurisdiction is to have full voting rights on the party platform (which would be a compromise), then their rogue primary should not be dispositive.  There have to be consequences for breaking the rules.


by Brad G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can you possibly support ... (2.00 / 1)

Silencing the voters is misplaced aggression.  I understand your desire to punish Florida and Michigan conceptually, but what you're not  distinguishing between the legislators and the Democratic voters in thos states.  Nuking the delegation chosen by the voters is an overbroad punitive measure that undermines the party's short term (November) and long term interests (recalcitrant state party).  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm ... (none / 0)

What about the Democratic Party's long-term interests of looking like a party unable to enforce their rules?  If the party isn't tough enough to enforce its own rules, how is it tough enough to stand up to terrorists?

We look like a weak party if we can't enforce our own rules.


by Brad G on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:54:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre here is the fairest solution (none / 0)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/26/0253 /28937

Please help make the case that the Uncommitted Delegates should remain UnCommitted and the delegates be seated towards the ones that were already assigned for Uncommitted. This is the case that should be making. Do not let Obama get the Uncommitted Delegates.


by Hillarywillwin on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre here is the fairest solution (2.00 / 3)

Then you are disenfranchising ME.  Or is that okay, as long as Hillary voters aren't disenfranchise?


"More War Years! More War Years!" ~John McCain
by Tommy Flanagan on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well I Don't Think That Person is Suggesting (2.00 / 1)

That Obama should be banned from receiving the votes of "Uncommitted" delegates.  They are just saying that not "automatically" get any delegate who is uncommitted.


by TooFolkGR on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well I Don't Think That Person is Suggesting (none / 0)

You might want to read that comment again. That's EXACTLY what they're saying.


"More War Years! More War Years!" ~John McCain
by Tommy Flanagan on Tue May 27, 2008 at 07:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre here is the fairest solution (2.00 / 4)

Or what...?  Will the Heavens fall...?

And what control, exactly, does Alegre have on this decision?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre here is the fairest solution (2.00 / 2)

We are forgetting that these delegates have already been chosen at the state convention.  About 36 of the uncommitteds went to Obama in MI.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 1)

It's simple alright - I'll give you that.


by Virginia Liberal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This Is About the Overton Window (2.00 / 2)

The Overton window is a concept in political theory, named after the former vice president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, Joe Overton, who developed the model. It describes a "window" in the range of public reactions to ideas in public discourse, in a spectrum of all possible options on an issue. Overton described a method for moving that window, thereby including previously excluded ideas, while excluding previously acceptable ideas. The technique relies on people promoting ideas even less acceptable than the previous "outer fringe" ideas. That makes those old fringe ideas look less extreme, and thereby acceptable. Delivering rhetoric to define the window provides a plan of action to make more acceptable to the public some ideas by priming them with other ideas allowed to remain unacceptable, but which make the real target ideas seem more acceptable by comparison.

The degrees of acceptance of public ideas can be described roughly as:

   * Unthinkable
    * Radical
    * Acceptable
    * Sensible
    * Popular
    * Policy

The Overton Window is a means of visualizing which ideas define that range of acceptance by where they fall in it, and adding new ideas that can push the old ideas towards acceptance merely by making the limits more extreme.


by Virginia Liberal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About the Overton Window (none / 0)

Where does ludicrous, insulting to our intelligence and embarrassing oneself fit into the Overton window?

Considering that this, the opening salvo in pushing the window still means Hillary comes up short, really doesn't make a great case why Hillary is still peddling her chances....


by Pragmatic Left on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Overton Window (none / 0)

Forgot to block quote the Overton Window - it is from WikiPedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_win dow


by Virginia Liberal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 6)

You are a liar.

Obama was not responsible for stopping a Florida revote IN ANY WAY.  I live in Florida and am familiar with the details fo the process leading up to the revote proposal.  The proposal failed because of the unanimous opposition to the proposal by our Congressional delagation, including Clinton national co-chair, Debbie Wasserman Schultz.  Florida democrats did not want a revote and Clinton's supporters in the state did not support them because they wanted the vote to count AS IS.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (2.00 / 6)

Why are you calling this an "article," as if it's news or by an unbiased journalist when it's an opinion piece by one of the Clintons' best political friends in the country?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You have totally jumped the shark. A pity. (2.00 / 7)

This is not about sexism, rights, or anything else.

This is clearly about a politician who did not cover her bases, had lackluster consultants, had no message or vision, mismanged close to a quarter of a billion dollars, totally hosed her campaign, and still want us to believe she is the better candidate?

Hillary Clinton clearly stated that the votes in Florida and Michigan would not count.  Why does the diarist write a true piece on that aspect?  She only cares about this since she has lost on every metric, while moving metrics, and while she is being put on mute.

One thing the Hillary Clinton Campaign also did not grasp was the power of the netroots.  They picked the wrong people to advocate for her.  And now we are left with listening to a very few, futile voices that are dying in the wind.

Alegre, I don't know if you are being paid, but you were certainly pursued by the Clinton Campaign.  And look what happened?  You have turned into a voice of disbelief and unreason.  If you continue, you will have to find your own watering hole, because in the end it is about nominating and winning a democrat in the fall.  That will be Barack Obama.

You will have a lot of bridges to repair, in the end.


by tracey webb on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:07:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

Hey


by deminva on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:16:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

There have been more posts on FL/MI primaries than there were people voting in them, it seems.


by notxjack on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, it is. (2.00 / 4)

Which is why I must point out that, even with the delegate total halved, one Michigan voter's vote would still count for 1/9361 of a delegate...whereas my vote in Wisconsin only counted for 1/15,044 of a delegate.

So my questions, YET AGAIN, are these:

1. On what basis, exactly, can you argue that halving delegates is at all unfair to Michigan?
2. When are you going to start crusading on behalf of us poor, disenfranchised Wisconsinites?

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/23/1944 11/195#readmore

I'm still waiting for an answer.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And, of course, (none / 0)

I'll follow right up with another question alegre chooses to ignore, from the "She won the second half" diary a few nights back. I think we're on day four of waiting now.

Phrasing it as "she's won," not "she's going to win," assumes facts not in evidence - to wit, that Obama will lose all three remaining contests in PR, SD and MT. (If he wins two, the "last half," as incorrectly defined in alegre's diary, will end in an 8-8 tie; if he wins all three, he "wins" the "half" by a 9-7 margin.)

Don't THOSE voters in Glendive and Arecibo and Yankton have the right to have their votes counted, too? Or do they not matter? Which is it?

I'll be sitting here patiently waiting for the answer that's sure to be provided any...minute...now.


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

If this is a voting rights matter then you will agree that the 45% of people from MI who purposefully DID NOT VOTE FOR CLINTON should not have any of their delegates counted for Clinton.

You proposal above is a BS proposal that will never fly.  Now if you would like to amend that and allow the delegates to remain the way they have been selected by the state that is another matter entirely. My understanding is that at the district level at least 31 of 36 delegates are sure for obama and the last five are union.  The state can figure the rest out and make sure no Clinton delegates get through on the state level delegates either since these are to be uncommitted or NON-CLINTON delegates.

To read thos votes as anything but a vote against Clinton is wrong and "Disenfranchising" the voters that did not want Clinton.

Secondly, Obama did not stop re-votes, he merely questioned the fairness of the revotes in the way they were being proposed.  This in not blocking the votes.  Blocking the votes is Clinton standing against revotes for 8 weeks after the election until she reailized that she needed another two primaries to make her case (since by then she had all but lost) and find a way to change the conventional wisdom about her loss.

Lets be crystal clear about this:

No votes were blocked officially by any candidate and to say they were is counter to fact.

Clinton did not care about revotes until it was obvious she needed them (not just the delegates but the elections to bolster her case and draw the nomination out)

MI and FL deserve to have some sort of penalty applied because they BROKE THE RULES and the only way for the DNC to maintain any sanity in the system requires that there be a price to pay for their knowing violation of the rules.  What that penalty is will be for the DNC to decide, but under no circumstances is it ok for FL and MI to flaunt the rules and not have anything happen.  If they did then what would keep every other state from doing the same thing?


by Why Not on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This Is About Voting Rights Dammit (none / 0)

You're right, simple and fair!

Give all Hillary's delegates to her.  But, as punishment for killing a re-vote, let's give half of the anti-Hillary uncommitted delegates to Clinton as well!

Sounds like democracy to me.

Seriously, this is the stupidest diary I've ever seen from you.


by masterxi43 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As a Floridan (none / 0)

I am personally insulted by the Clinton position on this issue, AND THIS diary.  

I am tired of the lies.

The fundemental lesson of the Florida recount was the NECESSITY OF ABIDING BY THE INTENT OF THE VOTER.

The Clinton position, expressed in this diary, reduces Democracy to a game.  The exit poll in Michigan shows Clinton was preffered by 47-35.  But the Clinton position is to ignore the intent of the Michican voter, in fact to intentionally close their eyes to the this fact. And so they argue the popular should give nothing to Obama from Michigan, despite the fact that was not the outcome the voters wanted.

Harold Ickes voted to disenfranchise me.  Clinton said the Michigan election would not count for anything.  She then insisted that she had always been for seating the delegates, which is a bald face lie.

And as usual Allegre simply lies about all of this.

I am beyond hearing from party hacks who didn't give a damn when the RBC caved to NH and Iowa last year.

They are beneath contempt.  They lie, and these lies are amoung the most pernicious, because they are cloaked with words like defending the voter.

But in fact they ignore the intent of the voter.

And as such are in fact as morally bankrupt as the decision to invade Iraq.


by fladem on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:57:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you... (none / 0)

...Lanny Davis' "compromise" is anything but.  If the stakes weren't so high it would be hysterically funny.

"Okay, let's compromise.  Give me half of what you have, and you can keep the other half."

Voters in Michigan who wanted to vote for Clinton could already do so.  She is "entitled" to virtually none of the uncommitted vote.

If anything, based on the exit polling of uncommitted voters, Obama should get at least 70 percent of those 55 uncommitted delegates, Clinton should get maybe 1 or 2, and the rest should either remain uncommitted or go to Obama(if, for example, a delegate would have gone to Edwards but the prospective Edwards delegate follows Edwards' lead and endorses Obama).


by megaplayboy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:48:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Frankly? (2.00 / 1)

This sounds to me like it's about Clinton and her spokespeople working the referee.

See, Clinton was on the Michigan ballot contrary to party rules and to an agreement that she signed (PDF), and because the early election was declared illegal by a Federal Judge. I also maintain that her claim to Florida's delegates is completely hypocritical, since she did nothing while her operatives in the DNC, to a person, including Harold Ickes, voted to strip Florida of its delegates. In fact, her campaign issued a press release defending stripping Florida's delegates just a few days later.

Your zeal is admirable, but your dishonesty here is not.


Finding God in a Dog
by maxomai on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How is it fair... (none / 0)

... to give Clinton a share of the uncomitted delegates?  If those voters had wanted to vote for Clinton, they would have.  Given the polling in Michigan, how can anyone think a delegate split that gives almost all to Clinton actually represents 'the will of the people'?


by protothad on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You should point out Alegre (2.00 / 18)


   that it was Hillary Clinton who refused the latest plan to seat them...with a net gain of 10 delegates to her.

   Everyone signed off on it, even people like Granholm, and Hillary hung them out to dry. Might want to mention that next time...people will think you're a bit biased if you don't....=)


by southernman on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:55:06 PM EST

Re: You should point out Alegre (2.00 / 6)


Shush!  Alegre will have nothing to do with facts that go against her fantasy about her BFF.

by neonplaque on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should point out Alegre (2.00 / 1)

It was a farce that did not represent the results of the election.  Accepting that would be as silly as Obama accepting a near 50/50 split of delegates from Illinois.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should point out Alegre (none / 0)

Why's that?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should point out Alegre (none / 0)

Because you are in the MyDD surreality sphere: where the race between Obama and Clinton is neck and neck for the Presidency of The Eleven States of America.


by notxjack on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should point out Alegre (none / 0)

Eleven*ty*, get it right. Sheesh.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should point out Alegre (none / 0)

Really? But I thought Illinois was actually contested.


by Covin on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should point out Alegre (none / 0)

Illinois didn't break DNC rules. Their election was legitimate.


by Angry White Democrat on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't read diaries which begin: (none / 0)

"Nothing anyone says to me will convince me"

A diarist who announces his/her closed-mindedness up front isn't being honest, s/he is unwittingly alerting readers that they should not waste their time expecting a reasonable point of view.


by Hudson on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 7)

Gee... a net gain of 10 instead of 58.

DOH! Now WHY didn't she take it?  Gimme a break.  That wasn't a proposal - that was an attempt to poach her delegates and he KNEW she's refuse it.

Nice try though.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:56:15 PM EST

Granholm = Judas? (2.00 / 13)

Granholm was trying to poach Clinton's delegates? Really? Is she the new Judas Iscariot this week?

Your suggested proposal is absurd, and an insult to the Democratic Party of Michigan. You are doubtless aware that the district conventions already voted on who the uncommitted delegates are, and none of them were Clinton supporters, but you now want the Rules Committee to overrule the state party and replace the choices from the conventions with Clinton supporters.

This still wouldn't win it for Clinton, particularly since such an absurd resolution would push even more SDs to Obama, so I'm not sure why you are even bothering to suggest it.


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 9)

"Gee... a net gain of 10 instead of 58.

DOH! Now WHY didn't she take it?  Gimme a break.  That wasn't a proposal - that was an attempt to poach her delegates"

I get it.  So you think she should get a 58 delegate gain from Michigan, a state where according to the most recent poll I'm aware of she trailed Obama by 5 points?  To put that in perspective, she gained only 46 delegates in NY.

See, they weren't HER delegates.  They're nobody's delegates, because the DNC said the contest was worth no delegates.  So now she's trying to cheat by changing the number of available delegates after the fact.

Which is fine.  After all,she's confirming everything I've always believed about her character and integrity (or lack thereof).  I get it.  She'll do anything to win. Lie. Cheat. Steal.  Even wish death on her opponent.

But please spare me the self-serving garbage about "protecting the voting rights" of MI and Fl voters.  If she cared even half a shred about that she would have said more than two peeps about it in the months -- MONTHS -- leading up to the contests after the DNC decision had been made.  

But she didn't.  Because she didn't care.  And she doesn't care now.  She's just working an angle.  I've certainly come to be cynical about politicians, but my goodness, does she believe in anything?  (Other than the obvious accumulation of power, of course...)


by davey jones on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why are you Obama supporters so vicious?? (2.00 / 2)

Here is what happened, from the N.Y.Times:

The Democratic National Committee proceeded to selectively enforce its calendar rule. It gave New Hampshire a waiver to move from third to second place in the sequence. But Michigan and Florida, which had also moved up the date of its primary, were denied waivers. When Howard Dean, the party chairman, says that states should not be allowed to violate the rules, he ignores the fact that when the committee itself decided not to follow the rules and granted a waiver to New Hampshire, it set the stage for the present impasse.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/opinio n/19levin.html


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why are you Obama supporters so vicious?? (2.00 / 7)

If you would:

Please provide a link to any quote from any source and any date prior to 1 January 2008 in which Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, any employee of Senator Clinton's campaign, any prominent supporter of Senator Clinton, Alegre, or, for that matter, you, expressed any compunction whatsoever with the decision of Chairman Dean to strip Michigan and Florida of their delegates.

Again - please note the date.

Thank you.


by turnover on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't play diary comment chess (2.00 / 1)

The article I quoted was published in March of this year. If you don't like it, ignore it.

Thank you.


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't play diary comment chess (2.00 / 7)

Here's the thing:

If any of this documentation existed, it would have been presented ad nauseum by the Clinton campaign and Senator Clinton's supporters. But of course this documentation doesn't exist.

Now I have to ask: Who's really being disrespectful to the voters of Michigan and Florida? Is it the Democratic Party? Or is it the Clinton campaign? Because I can sum up in one word the way I would feel I were being treated by Senator Clinton were I a Democratic voter in Florida or Michigan.

Used.


by turnover on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am a Democratic voter living in Florida (2.00 / 1)

and Obama got a decidely cool reception here this past week. Speak for yourself.


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:50:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a Democratic voter living in Florida (2.00 / 4)

Uh huh. Just like Alegre speaks for her whole "home" state of "homey" Michigan, which is her "home", so she knows it, even though she lives in a McMansion in the DC suburbs, but also lives paycheck to paycheck.

I got friends who drove from Marathon, Florida to see Obama speak. Ever driven to Marathon from, oh, anywhere in Florida? They told me that it was an exciting event- they were there. I dunno what this "cool" response was, but good job speaking for the entire state like you know what you're talking about.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:01:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a Democratic voter living in Florida (2.00 / 1)

I was speaking for myself.

But I'm very interested to read that you're a Florida voter.

How many letters and/or e-mails did you send to the DNC and/or elected officials and/or newspapers, etc. back when your legislature was voting to move up your primary? How many phone calls?

I swear on a stack, I'm actually quite curious.


by turnover on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a Democratic voter living in Florida (2.00 / 2)

Really?  The crowd in Tampa was so excited they gave a standing ovation to the guy who came out to set up Obama's podium.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:14:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why are you Obama supporters so vicious?? (2.00 / 7)

Right.  I get it.  The DNC wasn't fair in how it applied its rules.  Boo Hoo.  My question is, where was the outrage and righteous indignation in November of 2007, when it could have made the difference?  Why didn't MI and FL just go ahead and comply with the rules like the other 48 states of the union?

This has nothing to do with the DNC's rules.  This has to do with the fact that Hillary is hopelessly behind, and can't catch up unless (and probably even if) she cheats.  So that's what she's doing.


by davey jones on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Keep it up davy (2.00 / 1)

and you'll have no one but yourselves to blame come Nov. if Obama dosen't win. Just remember back to times like now when you knew it all, and disrespected so wantonly.


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keep it up davy (2.00 / 4)

Uh huh. So, here we see the heart of the matter- you don't need to work for anything but discontent because Clinton's losing, and we have to stand here and take it. If you really want Clinton to be the nominee, or to have a political legacy past this primary season, I don't see why you're not just as interested in unity as Obama supporters should be.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keep it up davy (2.00 / 1)

What was disrespectful about his comment?  Why do you have such thin skin?  This is politics.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Keep it up davy (2.00 / 4)

"and you'll have no one but yourselves to blame come Nov. if Obama dosen't win."

No, I'll have Hillary to blame.  After all, if you look at the polls showing Hillary with an "advantage" in polling over Obama against McCain, versus polling from a month or two ago showing Obama with the advantage, she isn't doing any better among republicans or independents, she's doing better among democrats, despite the fact that Obama has a higher percentage of democrats supporting him.  

The reason is pretty simple.  The last month or so of her campaign has been focused on getting her supporters not to vote for Obama.  Why else would she be in Florida last week?  The next election in Florida is the general election.  And she is trying to feed anti-Obama sentiment there.  

Why do you think the republicans are supporting her in every primary?  Because she is hurting Obama in ways that McCain never could.  And if, as a result, Obama winds up losing, I will blame her for it FOREVER.  And so will most of ObamaNation.  She thinks she's going to swoop in in 2012 if Obama loses?  Hah.  If there's one thing about ObamaNation, it is that we tend to be high information voters.  We know what's going on. And we are highly unlikely to forget quickly.  And, speaking for myself, I carry grudges.  My favorite verse in the Bible is Galatians Chapter 6, verse 7.  And I'll be there with bells on in the 2012 primary.


by davey jones on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why are you Obama supporters so vicious?? (none / 0)

How is Carl Levin an unbiased source on this?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary's goal is to (2.00 / 4)

keep the question alive, while keeping her voters agitated to keep it alive, by obscuring the truth.

She easily could have accepted the most recently offered reasonable compromise, but she didn't.

If she carries on with this the voters were disenfranchised frenzy she could force herself all the way to the convention.

Problem: This scenario sets up a likely loss for democrats, divided party and all.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 8)

You have got to be kidding me.

Only in your world is it "fairest" to give Hillary more than half of the Uncomitted delegates.

This "fair" solution would mean Hillary gets 78% of Michigan's full slate of delegates, and Obama gets 22%. Where in reality is this a fair solution?


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 2)

The diarist fails to point out that this "fair" solution was proposed by a Clinton supporter.


by Deano963 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 3)

Seat the Michigan delegation based on something as inaccurate as polling? How is that fair?

Because, you know, if we did everything by polling, Hillary would probably have been out after NH. So, you should thank whatever you may or may not believe in that we don't seat delegations based on polling, but rather by votes.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:57:28 PM EST

Not to mention... (2.00 / 1)

that assigning any of the uncommitted delegates to
Clinton is laughable.  She was on the ballot.  If the people who voted uncommitted had favored Hillary, they wouldn't have voted uncommitted.  Pure and simple.

If you want to split the uncommitted delegates between just the two candidates not on the ballot (Obama and Edwards), in accordance with the exit polls, and then let the Edwards delegates decide what they want to do, THAT would at least have some kind of logical basis.  But alegre's "fair" proposal is anything but--I think she's jumped the snark with this one.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 3)

look, the Obama campaign had it in the back of their minds about seating MI and getting delegates.  Just google about MI, Obama and uncommitted.

Surrogates in MI went on air and on print to state if you wanted Obama, vote uncommitted.  They had a plan (probably still do)


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:59:00 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL & MI (2.00 / 3)

So are you disagreeing with alegre's suggestion that half the formerly uncommitted delegates should be given to Clinton?


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

I don't think the uncommitted votes should go to Clinton.  I also don't think all of the uncommitted votes should go to Obama either, as Edwards, Biden and Dodd were also not on the ballot.

personally, it was their decision.  But I don't have an good answer for the uncommitted's except they shouldn't go to Hillary.  


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:08:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL & MI (2.00 / 3)

There was actually an established process for selecting the uncommitted delegates. This happened at the district conventions. It isn't exactly clear who all of the uncommitted delegates support, but it is believed that most of them support Obama. The district conventions happened after everyone but Clinton and Obama were out, so there was little incentive for any of them to go to anyone but Obama.

I'm glad to hear that alegre's suggestion sounds dubious even to an ardent Clinton supporter though.


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:22:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever (2.00 / 4)

It's not an Obama issue or a Clinton issue; it's a DNC issue.  It's about whether the organization will have the ability to enforce their rules in future primaries.  To allow these scofflaw jurisdicitons to go without consequences would be inexcusable.


by Brad G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever (none / 0)

To disenfranchise MILLIONS of voters would be inexcusable.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever (2.00 / 5)

I didn't know those voters in scofflaw jurisdictons ever received a franchise in the first place.

Voting in a primary is not a constitutional right.  Otherwise, political parties would not be able to exclude members of other politcal parties in their primaries.


by Brad G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, disenfranchising those millions of people who didn't vote because they were told it wouldn't count IS inexcusable.

It's like punishing somebody ex post facto, which, if I'm not mistaken, violates the Constitution.

But, whatever, I know you don't care.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 13)

it is disingenuous to say that hillary would be fighting to seat mi and fla if she did not perceive some advantage in doing so.

its that simple.

anyone claiming that its because she cares about all the votes blah blah blah is lying or is simply not the brightest crayon in the box.

don't forget, she is a politician (with hundreds of years of experience in these matters)


by citizendave on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:59:53 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 5)

Thousands of years of experience.


by Deadalus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 4)

(eons)


by citizendave on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 4)

She has been amassing experience since the dawn of time itself.....


by Deadalus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (none / 0)

Jade, is this you?



McCain
by Black Anus on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it is disingenuous (2.00 / 1)

to suggest that Obama would be against the rights of folks in FL and MI if it were not to his advantage.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is disingenuous (2.00 / 3)

Under that assumption, would you then agree that Hillary would be "against the rights of folks in FL and MI" if it were not to her advantage, or do you truly think she'd be campaigning every bit as hard for those delegates to be sat from sham elections if it would place her another 40 or 50 delegates behind Obama?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:04:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is disingenuous (2.00 / 7)

yes, but thats off topic.

this is the diary that will be shooting its way to the rec list, and its DISINGENUOUS.........thats my point.


by citizendave on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it is disingenuous (2.00 / 7)

Obama raised no objection to the recent plan proposed by the Michigan Democratic Party, but Clinton shot it down.


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it is disingenuous (1.75 / 4)

to suggest that Clinton would be for the rights of folks (the ones that voted for Clinton at least) in FL and MI if it were not to her advantage


by reggie23 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fair enough (2.00 / 3)

But this isn't about Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton.  This is about the Democratic Party having the ability to enforce its rules for future primaries.  It is simply inexcusable to allow these scofflaw jurisdictions to have full voting rights on the party platform, etc. at the convention?  Unless as a compromise, they agree to make the results of their rogue primaries not dispositive.  There simply have to be consequences for breaking the rules.


by Brad G on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I live in Florida. (2.00 / 1)

I voted in the Florida primary.
And, disenfranchising Florida voters because of "party rules" / not seating our delegates is a big FU from the national democratic party to the Jewish, elderly and latin/caribbean communities.
A lil' history lesson - - democrats don't win without doing good in those communities.
I'm still a sceptic!
by kosnomore on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:01:45 PM EST

Re: I live in Florida. (none / 0)

And the DNC did this precisely to spit in the eyes of old Mexican Jews.

Geez, folks...  Some state pols wanted to make FL count more by moving it up, and got slapped for it.  Ironically, FL would have been more important later in the process.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"old Mexican Jews" ??? (1.00 / 0)

go ahead, mock my comment, and don't consider the validity of my point, 'cause Florida never matters in electoral politics!


I'm still a sceptic!
by kosnomore on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "old Mexican Jews" ??? (2.00 / 3)

OK, here's the deal. The politicians in Florida and Michigan knew that they'd lose their delegates if they broke the rules, because that had been made very clear to them, but they thought that they'd have more influence having an early "beauty contest" primary. This normally would have been a good calculation, because normally the votes at the convention don't matter, and winning Florida or Michigan would have been good for someone's "momentum" even if the votes didn't count in the convention.

Of course, it didn't work out the way those two states hoped. The DNC, lead by Clinton's team, voted unanimously to not only take away their delegates, but to have the candidates pledge not to participate in the primaries, This decision rendered the primaries completely meaningless, and eliminated the campaign money (and news coverage, etc.) that flows into primary states.

Keep in mind that primaries that don't determine delegates at the convention are certainly not unknown. The Republicans had two such "advisory primaries" (Montana and Nebraska) this year, and there were several in the Democratic primaries in 1996, and you didn't hear them yelling that they'd been "disenfranchised". Some states have chosen to run advisory primaries, and some states have had their delegates stripped for breaking the rules - it's a fairly normal punishment that's used to keep the state parties in line. While the delegate votes at the convention don't usually matter, if you lose your delegates then the state party representatives can't go to the convention, attend parties, etc., which is (I would guess) pretty good incentive to play by the rules.


by laird on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "old Mexican Jews" ??? (none / 0)

I'm sorry, but the cries of "OMG disenfranchised" are so over-the-top and ridiculous that it's hard not to respond with mockery. I've lived in NM, TX, and CA, and my vote has never mattered in either a primary or general election.  Anyone in FL who feels insulted by the DNC needs to get a life.

And FL may not matter this year, if Obama puts more of the mountain west in play.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Anyone in FL who feels insulted (1.00 / 0)

 by the DNC needs to get a life."
And you think that attitude will be an effective campaign strategy to win over voters in an important swing state in which McCain is way in front of Obama?
We're supposed to convince voters, not dismiss their concerns, even if we don't get where they're coming from.  Remember, they're the boss.  Not the politicos.   The citizens and voters.
I'm still a sceptic!
by kosnomore on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:53:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Attitude (2.00 / 2)

Luckily I'm not a campaign strategist, just some random dude on the internet.  Honestly, I suspect that most FL voters don't even understand the ridiculousness, much less care about it.

I have no idea how many people think "my vote in the Democratic primary didn't count, therefore I'm voting Republican," and no idea how to talk these people down from the roof.  But thankfully, as I said, I'm just some dude on the web.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, I'm in Florida - - (2.00 / 1)

and the primary was really how it should be - - no TV commercials, no campaigning, no spin, no pandering, you read the newspaper/internet/magazines and you watched the news and you voted for who you liked best.  
No gimmicks, no bullshit, no silly side issues and no manufactured scandals.
I wish every election was that way!
My older kid voted Kucinich, 'cause he liked what he read about him and is ardently anti war.
My mom's an old labor person, and voted Edwards.
We all watched the debate the weekend (sat night I think) before the primary, and listened unfiltered.
And, believe it or not, millions of folks voted, and they are annoyed that it's not being counted.  And, right or wrong, Obama is coming off as the heavy.  I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying that that's how it looks.
I'm still a sceptic!
by kosnomore on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:43:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, I'm in Florida - - (none / 0)

You lucky, lucky creature...  I have no idea how the people in IA and NH survive these things.  The robo-calls, the endless ads, the stupid photo-ops...


Donate to Hillary Now!
by guazatragicness on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Seriously, that's why folks here (2.00 / 1)

are disturbed, 'cause we think we inadvertently did it the intelligent way.
Because there were no TV commercials, people were actually saying "I have to see the debate tonight before I go out, I don't know who to vote for yet", and turnout was huge.
Much better than BS like fancy haircuts or gas tax holidays or whose aide met the Canadian attache about NAFTA !
I'm still a sceptic!
by kosnomore on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:59:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I live in Florida. (2.00 / 4)

Give me a break.  You make it sound like the DNC somehow targeted FL and MI or singled them out in some way.  The fact is, FL would have no problem having their votes could if they just followed the (fairly simple) rules.  Maybe you should be mad at the rocket scientists running the party in that state that seem to screw up just about every election instead of blaming somebody else.


by davey jones on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is missing from this Diary.... (2.00 / 12)

...is an explanation of why last year Hillary was satisfied with the exclusion of Michigan to the point of saying on public radio that the votes there "would not count", and why when she fell behind it became important.  Also, when it bacame one of her last arguements, why was it upgraded to a civil rights issue

enquiring minds want to know


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:03:02 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 14)

How is it fair to give HRC half of the delegates from voters who specifically voted against her?

And did she win by 78 percent in any state?  She certainly wouldn't have in Michigan.....

what a joke.


by Deadalus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:03:19 PM EST

It's a little late now (2.00 / 9)

If they really cared about a fix rather than whinning about impending doom they wouldn't have done this:
For more than six weeks, beginning four days before the January 29 primary in Florida, Mrs. Clinton's camp took the inflexible position that the delegates from the Florida and Michigan primaries should be selected and seated based solely on the results of those votes, despite the fact there was virtually no campaigning in either state and Mr. Obama and most other Democrats had pulled their names from the Michigan ballot.

Link.
by notme54 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:06:12 PM EST

Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (2.00 / 9)

of any Democratic primary this year?

Was it because, people thought it wasn't a real primary?  

If 1.5 million had turned out in MI, I'd think that it was a legitimate primary despite the lack of campaigning.  600K?  Not so much.  Clinton won her beauty contest, but to claim not recognizing it as a legit primary ammounts to disenfranchisement is a stretch.


by jimotto on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:06:14 PM EST

Re: Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (2.00 / 5)

You just don't understand, do you?

Of course people would go out of their way to vote in a contest that doesn't matter. Any true Democrat or democrat would do that.

Anybody that would have voted in the Michigan primary whether it counted or not voted. Stop trying to argue anything different.

</snark>


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:09:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (2.00 / 1)

actually, MI had its highest EVER democratic primary this year.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (2.00 / 1)

Actually both states were fall below the average turnout in every other primary (% wise).  Even the Republican primary in both states had a higher turnout than the Democratic primary.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/03/19 disenfranchising-non-voters-in-florida-a nd-michigan?mod=googlenews_wsj


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (2.00 / 3)

I find it interesting that Florida is the 4th largest state in the nation, yet finishes 8th in votes cast in the democratic primary.
Michigan, 8th largest.  Finishes 18th in votes cast.
Michigan and Florida were two of only four states (the others being Arizona and Utah) that had higher republican turnout than democratic.


by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (none / 0)

I stand corrected.  But overall

Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land today announced that approximately 1.48 million voters - or 20.7 percent - cast ballots in Michigan's presidential primary election Tuesday, based on unofficial returns.

That ranks Tuesday's turnout as the third highest in the history of Michigan's presidential primaries. The record turnout was in 1972 with more than 1.9 million voters while 1976 saw the second-highest number of voters at more than 1.7 million.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127 --183671--,00.html

also, don't forget - Mitt Romney is the native son of MI and of a popular governor there.  Lots of people probably crossed over to vote for him
 


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why did Michigan have the lowest turnout (2.00 / 1)

2.4 million people voted for Kerry in 2004.  In an open primary, less than 600K voted in the Dem primary.  24% of the 2004 democratic vote.

The next lowest turnout was connetticut.  It had a closed primary, with 40.3% turnout (followed by Clinton's home state of NY with 40.4%, again in a closed primary).

For an apples to apples comparison, the second lowest open primary turnout (again, relative to 2004 GE democratic vote) was Utah, at 50%.  If you are interested only in states that had voted Dem in the last century, you'd go to New Jersey, which had 59%.

So, needless to say, the turnout in MI was pathetic, judging from every other primary this year.  That tells you nothing??


by jimotto on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

The hell with it. Seat 'em all. Seat 'em as-is.

Senator Obama will win this thing anyway.


by turnover on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:06:29 PM EST

But no funny hats (2.00 / 4)

thay have to be taught a lesson some how.


by notme54 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple (none / 0)

Exactly right.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What I don't understand (none / 0)

What I don't understand is why EITHER campaign gets veto rights on the "cure."  I've seen several reasonable proposals that I could live with, including the re-vote, but the DNC has abdicated the responsibility of making a decision among the proposals and telling BOTH campaigns to like it or lump it.


Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
by stan81747 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:07:28 PM EST

This is Lanny Davis (2.00 / 9)

I thought for a moment that this was some sort of objective article you were citing. And then I saw it was Lanny Davis. Oy.


by elrod on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:08:04 PM EST

Re: This is Lanny Davis (none / 0)

Maybe the next objective analysis will be by Kiki McClain.


A vote for John McCain is a vote against Hillary Clinton
by realistdem on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 3)

And please show me where the people have the right to vote in a presidential primary? Their isn't one. The only right to vote the american people have, it to vote for POTUS.


by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:08:11 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 24)

"The Rules Committee has several options. The fairest would be to allocate those 57 pledged delegates, to Clinton and Obama by the same ratio of their standing to one another in the average of the most recent Michigan statewide polls prior to the Jan. 15 primary. Or perhaps one Solomonic compromise, more generous to Obama than to Clinton, would be to divide the remaining delegates approximately 50-50 between the two of them, 28-27 (giving Clinton the extra delegate since she led in all the latest statewide polls prior to Jan. 15)."

WTF? Give Hillary half of all the delegates that VOTED UNCOMMITTED? People who actually bothered to get out of the house and travel to the polling stations to vote in an unsanctioned election that they were REPEATEDLY told would NOT COUNT, just to vote AGAINST Hillary, and give half of their vote to Hillary?

That's it. You have given up your privelege to complain about this primary being undemocratic. It is more than clear that the only reason you find the system unfair is because Hillary is losing. I'm sorry you are taking it so bad, but proposing such ridiculous resolutions to the almighty cock up that is Florida and Michigan is not helping.


by grass on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:08:40 PM EST

Re: Give these a try. (1.07 / 13)

Is that a self potrait?  Dressing in mommy's clothes again?


by Tolstoy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:09:13 PM EST

Re: Give these a try. (2.00 / 2)

That's sexist...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (2.00 / 3)

Well if certainly wasn't meant to be.  Infer what you will.  


by Tolstoy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:17:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (2.00 / 1)

Homophobe!


by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:17:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (1.30 / 10)

What?  Are you nuts?  Strike that.  Of course you are.


by Tolstoy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (none / 0)

That's insulting to the mentally different.


by grass on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (1.00 / 2)

Come on, you know you're just one of the BOYZZZ like the rest of the Obama supporters


by reggie23 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:23:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (none / 0)

I really don't understand what they're trying to imply by using that misspelled version of "boys" but it seems incredibly nasty.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (none / 0)

I think this is probably snark (?)


by mnl1012 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (none / 0)

No, not really. I probably didn't phrase it correctly.

I understand that the use of the word boys is to imply that Obama supporters are all male and sexist.

But I honestly have no clue what the implications of the 'z' are.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (2.00 / 1)

No, I was saying that I think Reggie's comment was snark.  But yeah, the "Boyz" thing is ridiculous.


by mnl1012 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:37:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (2.00 / 1)

Oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure it was snark, too. I was just looking for a place to pose my question about the "boyz" meme.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give these a try. (none / 0)

Adding the Z to boys, fits in with the Obama "thugs" memo. "Boyz in the hood." Lol.  


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tell it to my ovaries (none / 0)


by Virginia Liberal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My vagina seems to disagree with you. (2.00 / 1)

Ha, I know is gets pretty intense around here, but just let you know, I was supporting your comment ....psssst.....it was a snark


by reggie23 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:39:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

I like the plan out of the MI legislature 69-59 Clinton, with all delegates seated.

Out of FL, I like Sen. Graham's proposal...Seat the full delegation, half according to the reults on 1-29, (53-35 Clinton), the other half based on the total delgate % of all the primaries combined (46-44 Obama).

This would tally 168 delegates for HRC and 138 delgates for Obama.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:09:13 PM EST

If Hillary was serious about this (2.00 / 3)

she would get rid of this mother fucker

Photobucket

This mook voted for this and now she is employing the same jackass.

Hillary you can't have it both ways!


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:09:50 PM EST

Re: If Hillary was serious about this (none / 0)

That "mook" lost a kidney fighting white supremicists in the 60s...how about showing a little respect for a true hero


by LDFan on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 12)

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting this "fair" solution, but since Hillary was on the ballot in Michigan, why should she get even a SINGLE delegate that would go uncommitted?  Now, if some of those belong to Edwards or others (besides Obama) that's fine.  But Clinton?  HELL NO!  There is no argument to be made that Hillary supporters voted uncommitted.

Or am I completely misinterpreting the proposed Michigan solution?


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:10:22 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (2.00 / 8)

You are not. It is beyond absurd and that anyone with a minimum of common sense (Lanny Davis in this case) would offer this with a straight face belies their claim to be politically savvy or intelligent.
She is the ONLY person on the ballot. 40% people STILL go to vote and TAKE THE TIME AND ENERGY to specifically vote for uncommited because they really don't want to vote for her but somehow it makes sense to give her HALF of those votes ? What in hell ?

And how is basing a divide of the delegates based on SIX MONTH OLD POLLS sensical, fair or just sane ?
I wouldn't base a divide on CURRENT polls let alone on polls taken before the race actually started.

This is so beyond delusional it goes into insulting territory.


by Benjaminomeara on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (2.00 / 2)

It was such an absurd suggestion, that I really kind of thought I must be misinterpreting it.  

I mean...Hillary gets delegates from her share of the voting AND from those who voted uncommitted?  People who COULD vote for her and CHOSE to not do so?  IN-FREAKIN-SANITY!


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (none / 0)

oh stop the hate.  


by HillsMyGirl on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (2.00 / 5)

Wait a second. There is no personal hate here.
But you have to admit that this is so beyond anything remotely sane or reasonable that one has to shake our head in amazement that alegre - who, disagree with her as I usually may, seems to be an intelligent person - could reprint that spin that anyone with a teensy bit of common sense would look at and laugh and laugh and laugh.
The 50% of the uncommitted thing is just ... I can't understand how this makes any sense. I just don't.

I am perfectly fine with people making cases for Hillary, as unlikely as they may be, but I guarantee you this is so laughable that you are HURTING her case. Because suddenly it focuses people on scenarii that are beyond absurd and then they realize there really isn't much chance.
There is some spin that I disagree with but that I can see unfolding with some measure of success.
Arguing that half of the people who went to the polls and specifically voted for uncommited rather than vote for the only other person on the ballot secretely wanted to vote for her is just dumb.


by Benjaminomeara on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:26:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (1.00 / 1)

They were uncommitted.

Do you know how they would vote?

So splitting them up in half is fair.


by HillsMyGirl on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (2.00 / 2)

For one thing, they had the opportunity to vote for Senator Clinton but chose not to.  If they'd intended to vote for Clinton, they could have.

For the other thing--the very fact that we can ask the question "do you know how they would vote?" or making assumptions about who they would have voted for shows why this contest cannot be considered a free and fair election.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (2.00 / 0)

When you have a choice between "Hillary Clinton' and "uncommitted" and you choose uncommitted, well, that's a pretty clear indication you don't want to vote for Hillary Clinton.


by Benjaminomeara on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to (none / 0)

But, if people could vote for uncommitted or Clinton, and they didn't vote for Clinton... why give her the uncommitted delegates?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:10:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Awesome (1.00 / 1)

You are so right.  

Give HIllary the 73 delegates.

I guess we can split the uncommitteds 27.5 to 27.5

It's a great idea.


by HillsMyGirl on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:15:56 PM EST

Re: Awesome (none / 0)

Did you previously post as hillarywillwin?


by letterc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Awesome (none / 0)

Completely ridiculous.


by Same As It Ever Was on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 3)

Gee thanks Lanny for you input, but no thanks.

Alegre, please start having some original thoughts rather than spouting the latest Clinton or surrogate's  talking points.

If you want to see the Supers break en-masse for Obama this would sure be one way to accomplish it.


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:16:27 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL & (1.50 / 2)

She can't.  An original thought would require objectivity, of which, given her performance on the infamous Clinton bogger conf call which she touted last week, is impossible for her.

She's a shill, and why her diaries still get on the rec list, I have no idea.


by neonplaque on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is insane (2.00 / 5)

Some of those 50 delegates might have been for Clinton as a second choice to candidates other than Obama, so it would be totally unfair to award all 50 delegates to Obama.

Yeah Lanny, sure.

Ass.


by Bee on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:20:55 PM EST

This solution is neither simple nor fair... (2.00 / 3)

...and what's more, it violates the Alegre Rule, which stipulates that the wishes of the voters should be respected above all else.  Now it's clear from exit polling that the wishes of the voters are as follows:

46% Clinton
35% Obama
19% Dropped Out/Uncommitted

Now, out of 130 pledged delegates in MI, that would give Clinton 60 delegates, Obama 46 delegates, and leave 24 uncommitted.  The popular vote totals would be dispensed the same way, according to the Alegre Rule.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:25:54 PM EST

Exit polls are NOT votes. - n/t (none / 0)

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:56:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exit polls are NOT votes. - n/t (none / 0)

And the Michigan election was not a valid election, as two of the three major candidates boycotted.

So we're back to square one.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:05:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Screw It! (2.00 / 3)

Let's just give the crown to Clinton.

That would be fair as far as Clinton supporters go...... cause every vote for Obama was a vote against Clinton! How dare they!


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:26:50 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

Wow, That Michigan idea is truly horrible.


by Bobby Obama on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:28:49 PM EST

2 wrongs don't make a right (2.00 / 3)

This is a bad situation, but Hillary's solution ends up disenfranchising voters, too.  All those people in Florida who didn't vote because they were told that the primary wouldn't count would be disenfranchised.  

If Hillary argues that Obama should get zero delegates, she's disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of black voters in Michigan who would have voted for Obama if they had the chance.

Also, Hillary's proposal is unfair and violates the due process rights of the 48 states who obeyed the rules set by the DNC and didn't move up their primaries.  To reward Florida and Michigan for violating the rules would undermine the integrity of the political process and therefore deny voters in the other states due process of law.  


by ProfessorReo on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:28:52 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

Somewhere between 31 and 35 of those 55 uncommitted MI delegates are already Obama delegates.

You're double-counting some of Clinton's support to argue that such a high percentage of those 55 should be for Clinton.


by tunesmith on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:30:02 PM EST

Another lie from Alegre (2.00 / 4)

Karen Thurman, cheered on by Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, among others, opposed the FL re-vote.
by JJE on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:33:22 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (1.50 / 4)

Is Lanny a lawyer, because he sure doesn't really understand contract law, (and I'm not a lawyer).  
Let's understand the nature of this contract:  DNC and Prez Candidates on one side, and the FL and MI Democratic parties on the other.  Under Lanny's legal principle, he's holding the non-breaching side of the contract responsible for not actively helping the breaching side to remediate the initial breach?  He's got a giant hole in his head, and he's forgotten basic legal principles.  What a joke!

Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:37:48 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

at any rate, FL should be seated as is.  I don't see a problem with it - everyone was on the ballot and no one campaigned.

Obama got great media coverage because of his Iowa win, so FL people knew who he was, not to mention all the articles in Time/Newsweek/etc


by colebiancardi on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:44:18 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for nobody (1.50 / 2)

Are you going to tell me this is the equivalent of a twenty year head start in name recognition, including eight years as first lady, to someone most people didn't even know about outside of Iowa before January?

I mean, really. At least be honest about that. Say, well, he might've done better if he'd have campaigned there. Senator Clinton had an advantage, that's for sure. But we'll never know- and all I can do with that is nod and agree with you. That statement, however, reeks of intellectual dishonesty.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for nobody (none / 0)

Everyone but Gravel & Obama had a name recognition and advantage.

But to state that Obama wasn't the featured candidate on a lot of newspapers, magazines and TV coverage from his Iowa win, plus all the debates we had prior is also intellectually dishonest


by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 07:10:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 5)

I'm amused that you think it's "fair" to give Senator Clinton all the delegates she won...  And then also approximately half of the "uncommitted" delegates (your so-called "Solomonic" compromise).  Given that a near-majority, when presented with the options of Clinton, Kucinich, Biden, Dodd, Gravel, or Richardson, chose "none of the above," it's fairly clear they were registering their preference not to vote for Senator Clinton, but rather for either Senator Obama or Senator Edwards (who has now endorsed Obama).

But Senator Clinton is trailing so thoroughly in the delegate count now, she has no hope unless she scores...  Not just 55% of the delegates, but 78% of them.

In what world, exactly, does that count as "fair"?


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:46:25 PM EST

First (2.00 / 10)

You really should point out that the article is by none other than Lanny Davis, one of Hillary's main media surrogates, and as such it is a completely biased outlook on how to seat the delegates.

The other disingenuous thing about all this, is that you cannot be disenfranchised in a primary. You have no rights to vote in primaries, they can put any rules on who can vote they want, when the voting takes place, how the voting takes place etc, and where it takes place, and hope the national party agrees to it.  Those choices are up to each individual state party.

The other thing about that article that is totally ridiculous is that Hillary Clinton should get any part of the uncommitted vote, they had an opportunity to put an X beside her name and decided against it.  What would give anyone the idea they would want that vote to be given away for them?

The privately funded revotes were by to be paid for by Clinton supporters, and I don't know about any of you, but the idea of private citizens paying to have people vote just doesn't sit right with me. It's very Stalinesque and many would never believe or trust the outcome.

The absolute best solution is for one candidate to get to 2025, and be declared the winner and then have the delegations from both states seated.

You've written some really great pro Hillary dairies that I've enjoyed, lately not so much. I feel like you're grasping at any straw to have her win instead of actually letting the remaining contests and SD's have their say under the rules ALL the candidates agreed to when the primaries began. It's like I tell my kids, 'the rules are the rules, and learn to play the game by them, or put it away and quit fighting'.


by Kyrial on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:50:35 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

Call me old fashioned, but call me an American and a patriot.
I am very very afraid when here, in AMERICA, a few can throw out the votes of the many. Did we learn NOTHING in 2000????
COUNT EVERY VOTE!
by ProudMilitaryMom on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:54:06 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL & MI (none / 0)

Unless you wanted to vote for Obama but couldn't, so you voted for none of the above.  In that case, give the vote to Hillary.


by sneakers563 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:35:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (none / 0)

Learn.


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:14:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm curious... (2.00 / 1)

How does it factor in to your narrative that Clinton opposed a re-caucus in Michigan?

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/camp aign-2008/2008/03/07/clinton-says-no-to- a-caucus-do-over.html

From March 7th.  The key quote is:

'Some party officials are suggesting caucuses as an option to get the delegates qualified--but that doesn't pass muster with Clinton. "I would not accept a caucus," she told us. "I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted."'


by jere7my on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:58:35 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

Heh, Lanny Davis = Simple and Fair?

This is one of the dumbest articles I've ever read.  Here's the best possible situation for Clinton:

Clinton gets 50% of the delegates in Florida, Obama get's 33% and they split the rest.

Clinton gets 55% of the delegates in Michigan, Obama get's 20% and they split 5%.

The remaining 20% of the delegates in MI goes to Edwards.  However, since he has endorsed Obama, those go to Obama as well.

Clinton: 58.5% of the delegates in Florida (108), 57.5% of the delegates in Michigan (74).
Obama: 41.5% of the delegates in Florida (77) and 42.5% of the delegates in Michigan (54).

182 delegates (1,365,482 votes) for Clinton, 131 delegates (978,836 votes) for Obama.

New delegate total (prior):
Obama - 2107 (1976)
Clinton - 1961 (1779)

Obama's lead goes from +197 delegates to +146 delegates.

Obama's popular vote lead goes from -54,432 with FL, MI and IA, NV, ME, WA included to +182,003.

Obama - 17,998,861 (50.3%)
Clinton - 17,816,858 (49.7%)


by RussTC3 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:59:26 PM EST

So basically... (2.00 / 2)

Obama will be in the lead regardless.  This faux-outrage over MI and FL is annoying.  Many Democrats in MI didn't even get a chance to vote anyways.


by RussTC3 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

This appears to be the Clintons' starting position for negotiation, so it's therefore one that won't be treated with the slightest bit of seriousness by the people who will make the decisions.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:04:59 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

If FL and MI are seated at full strength the first primaries for 2012 will be in 2011.

Yes, I do believe the current system will have to change, but this would replace it with anarchy.


by monkey3203 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:06:20 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 3)

Sully put it well:

The upshot of Davis' chutzpah is that Clinton should get 102 out of 130 delegates in Michigan.

So Michigan isn't penalized for breaking the rules (can you imagine what that precedent will do for future primary schedules?). Clinton isn't punished. She is rewarded with a number of delegates she would never have won in a normal primary. Obama is punished. And Clinton gets almost 78 percent of the delegates from Michigan in a state where she was running neck and neck with Obama before the illegitimate primary.

Recall that 538's demographic assessment of how Obama would have done in Michigan if it had been counted as a regular state (and not broken the rules) is as follows: 65 to 63 for Obama. There is no conceivable way that Clinton would have won Michigan by a margin of 102 - 28, or 78 to 22 percent, a far bigger margin than Clinton win in any other primary or caucus. And yet that's what the Clintonites are demanding.

This is what they are aiming for: stealing this nomination by the Rules Committe and then corralling the super-delegates to back them. If the supers do not go their way, they have already warned that Florida and Michigan Democrats may not back Obama in the fall.

The thought that these creeps could find their way back into the White House is terrifying.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th e_daily_dish/2008/05/lanny-davis-com.htm l#more


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:08:18 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

neither simple, nor fair.  try again, and try, just try to think like someone who gave a shit about these voters before it mattered in your candidate's delegate count.


by math on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:09:29 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution to FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

Let's assume that contract law is the proper analogy.

First, when Florida breached the contract, the DNC had only mandated that one-half of the delegates be stripped of their delegates. Thus, at most the DNC should only be able to strip Florida one-half of it's delegates. However, there is a question of whether Florida Democrats violated the contract as Republicans control Florida State government.

Second, when the DNC imposed the rule that violating states (except for New Hampshire, Iowa and South Carolina) be stripped of all of their delegates, the Michigan State Legislature had already passed legislation moving up the Michigan primary. Thus, Michigan should have been allowed to cure the breach so that the DNC can only at most strip one-half of their delegates.

Under contract law, the breaching party is liable for damages whether the breach is cured or not. Thus, Michigan and Florida would be liable to the parties damaged. (In this case to Hillary Clinton in the primaries, probably Barack Obama in the general, the voting rights of their citizens, and possiblity the national party if McCain wins the presidency). At least that's the law in most states. However, the violated party has the duty to mitigate damages. I'm not sure how Hillary Clinton is suppose to mitigate damages.

I'm not sure contract law is the proper analogy. What's the contract? Who signed the contract? What's the consideration? How does Michigan and Florida compensate Hillary Clinton for the damage they incurred on her? May be they should be required to pay off her campaign debts?

More people seem to find criminal law the more appropriate analogy. But how about constitutional law?

My proposal is to allocate Michigan and Florida delegates as is, but to only give each delegate one-half of a vote. The DNC should then amend the rules to never strip a state of it's delegates again. They could punish violating states by giving the DNC the ability to take over the state party.

Well, I kind of rambled along here. But these are my thoughts as I was writing.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:10:47 PM EST

Meanwhile, somewhere on Mars... (2.00 / 2)

First, when Florida breached the contract, the DNC had only mandated that one-half of the delegates be stripped of their delegates. Thus, at most the DNC should only be able to strip Florida one-half of it's delegates.

The DNC mandated that violating states be stripped of at least half their delegates.  The DNC's options were anywhere between 50% and 100%, and they chose 100%.  You can certainly disagree with their decision, but don't try to pretend they broke their own rules.

However, there is a question of whether Florida Democrats violated the contract as Republicans control Florida State government.

That argument might hold water if the vote to move the primary hadn't been near unanimous.  The Democrats in Florida were just as complicit in moving the date as the Republicans.

Second, when the DNC imposed the rule that violating states (except for New Hampshire, Iowa and South Carolina)

Clever.  New Hampshire, Iowa, and South Carolina were not "violating states" at all because the rule specifically excluded them.

be stripped of all of their delegates, the Michigan State Legislature had already passed legislation moving up the Michigan primary. Thus, Michigan should have been allowed to cure the breach so that the DNC can only at most strip one-half of their delegates.

As late as November 2007, Michigan had still not committed to its primary date.  Florida was stripped of its delegates in August.  They were given ample time to change their mind, as well as to move their primary back after the fact.

Under contract law, the breaching party is liable for damages whether the breach is cured or not. Thus, Michigan and Florida would be liable to the parties damaged. (In this case to Hillary Clinton in the primaries ... How does Michigan and Florida compensate Hillary Clinton for the damage they incurred on her? May be they should be required to pay off her campaign debts?

Okay, I hate to keep using this phrase, but it's appropriate given the apparent complete detachment from standard Terran reality--but on what planet is Hillary Clinton a damaged party in this?  She was not a signatory to the metaphorical "contract"--Michigan and the DNC were.  Because she got the most votes in their pretend contest with two major candidates left off the ballot in one state, she suddenly becomes an aggrieved party and they should be liable for damages to her?  That's sincerely off the deep end.

More people seem to find criminal law the more appropriate analogy. But how about constitutional law?

Doesn't apply, as many have already pointed out.  There is no Constitutional right to vote in a primary.  Political parties are private entities (highly regulated, but still private) that are allowed to choose their nominee in any way they see fit.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:32:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

Let the DNC byelaws committee take MI and FL into trusteeship. Let them apportion the delegates 69-59 in MI, about the same ratio for FL, and strip the supers of the states of THEIR VOTE. They can bump the state regular delegations, but make it clear to all Dem pledged and super delegates that the people who agreed last August with the plan for this season , and then went out and violated it deliberately are being punished.

The contests on the 29th are fatally flawed. They are skewed and not credible results of a legitimate contest because Democrats were told it didn't count. Since the state leadership allowed them to happen with candidates dropped from the ballot, people told it was a beauty contest in violation of the rules, they forfeit the right to run or re-run the election this year. This also ensures these two states won't make a large difference in who the nominee is, or unfairly reward one candidate over another. They earned that embarrassing "privilege" by their actions.


by PeteRock on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:12:30 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

Hillary  should not get any of the 'uncommitted' delegates. She received 73 from those who voted for her. Those who didn't want to vote for her either voted for 'uncommitted' or one of the other candidates.

This is simply Hillarys campaign trying to get more delegates than they 'deserve'.

More of a case is to give Hillary the 73 and Obama the 55. But I think Michigan ought to be punished for moving its calendar back on a 50% cut...so Hillary would get 37 and Obama 28.


AnnMarie
by wiscogirl101 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:12:38 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

I was going to post this as a response to an earlier comment but decided it's really quite central to the whole issue.

People were allowed to vote in Florida and Michigan.  Their votes were duly recorded and tallied.  In Michigan, Clinton got 55% of Michigan's delegates.  Since Michigan has zero delegates, that means Clinton gets... zero delegates.

Are you implying the DNC does not have the right to assign the total number of delegates seated from each state?  They make that decision for every state and territory.

Do you think that Democrats in Texas and Wyoming and Utah and Georgia are all disenfranchised because they have fewer delegates, comparatively, than Democrats in Massachusetts and New York and California and Rhode Island?  The DNC makes those rules too, and gives fewer delegates to those states because they vote reliably Republican while the other states I mentioned vote reliably Democratic.

Why are the same people crying about Florida and Michigan's disenfranchisement not also championing the cause of the downtrodden Texas and Georgia and Alaska and Mississippi Democrats?  Are they inferior Democrats simply because they live in red states?

The only difference is scale, it is the same principle--the people vote in their state contest, and the DNC determines how much weight each state is allowed to have in the process.  If that prerogative of the DNC is wrong in principle, which is what you're arguing in the case of Michigan and Florida, then it is wrong everywhere.  So you should be dedicating your efforts not only to Michigan and Florida, but also to getting higher delegate totals for Red states whose voters have been unfairly "disenfranchised" by having their vote given less weight in the process.

Unfortunately, then you'd have to be arguing for giving more delegates to the large, red, Southern states where Obama did exceedingly well.  For some reason, I can't see you doing that.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:13:13 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

i dont see how hillary gets half the uncommited delegates in mich when her name was on the ballot. i font see how that represents the will of the people


by gatti1 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:13:27 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair (2.00 / 2)

But, really, it only makes sense.  Clinton won 55% of the vote in MI, so she should get 78% of the delegates.  Simple.  Fair.


by deminva on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:18:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Endgame (2.00 / 1)

We're reaching the endgame, and it will be interesting to see what the Clinton folk do next.  Two facts no reasonable person can dispute: when the election was held in Michigan there was a universal understanding among voters that the DNC had imposed sanctions and the results wouldn't count; there isn't a shred of evidence which suggests that if a fair election were held one candidate would beat the other by a margin of, say, 20 points or more.

It's freakin' obvious why people like Lanny Davis are presenting the arguments they do: they're being good advocates, are presenting the maximal case for their client, because if they got anything less the outcome would be moot.  They're going to get their asses handed to them, though.  It's just asking too much to seek a remedy which is so much at variance with actual voter opinion in the state of Michigan.

And on this topic, and a few others, it will be interesting to see, when these arguments fail, whether the Clinton camp adopts the posture of the corporate lawyer--oh well, we tried, it's time to move on--or acts as if some gigantic injustice had just happened.  Know where I'm putting my money.  


by IncognitoErgoSum on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:13:49 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

There's nothing with Michigan and Florida that needs to be "solved". The DNC, lead by Clinton's people, established the rules. 48 states followed the rules, and two broke the rules. Specifically, they decided that they'd rather have the influence of being "early" states, even if their votes didn't count at the convention. The DNC, lead by Clinton's people, voted unanimously (as the states expected) to punish those two states by removing their delegates. And all of the voters in those states knew that their votes were a 'beauty contest" and, by all accounts, weren't particularly upset. The people not upset by this at the time also included Clinton and her team, since she not only pledged that she wouldn't participate in either primary, but made numerous statements about how those two primaries didn't count because it was important for the DNC to be able to manage the primary schedule, and to respect Iowa and New Hampshire's early primaries.

Plenty of states have had "beauty contest" votes that didn't count at the convention. Nobody's ever seriously argued that those voters were "disenfranchised", because the convention votes are usually meaningless, and winning a primary, even a "beauty contest" can be very important. So called "advisory primaries" are rare, but certainly not shocking - see http://www.thegreenpapers.com/Definition s.html. Examples include Arizona and Michigan in 1996, and (for Republicans) Montana and Nebraska this year.

Now Clinton has lost the nomination, but since she's not "a quitter" she's trying to change the rules in order to create enough confusion to find a way to win. I suppose that you can admire her determination, but it's hard to take her constantly shifting "goal posts" seriously.


by laird on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:14:21 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 3)

Some of these diaries get me riled up.

This one is so over the top, so completely stupid -- with an argument that is getting royally mocked all over the place -- that I'm more amused than anything.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:14:56 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (none / 0)

What I really enjoy is that she calls it simple and fair.


by pomology on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution (2.00 / 1)

"she calls it simple and fair."
She's partially right.
It's "simple-minded and fairly absurd."
McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)


Keeping this disupte going keeps Clinton in the race. It is the perfect excuse to go to the convention - it's not about me, it's about democracy and counting every vote.
It's disingenuous but it is very smart if that is what the motivation is.
by GrahamCracker on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:25:28 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

So waaaaiiiittt...

The Rules Committee has several options. The fairest would be to allocate those 57 pledged delegates, to Clinton and Obama by the same ratio of their standing to one another in the average of the most recent Michigan statewide polls prior to the Jan. 15 primary. Or perhaps one Solomonic compromise, more generous to Obama than to Clinton, would be to divide the remaining delegates approximately 50-50 between the two of them, 28-27 (giving Clinton the extra delegate since she led in all the latest statewide polls prior to Jan. 15).

So you're saying the "fairest" option here is give Hillary half of the votes that WEREN'T for her, despite her being on the ballot?

How in the world this gets recommended is beyond me.  That's not fair, that's utter insanity.  Why don't we just give Clinton all the votes for Edwards everywhere?  And why don't we add some bonus delegates to her total for fairness?


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:28:28 PM EST

But but but -- Florida is ZIMBABWE! (2.00 / 1)

We better settle this before rival gangs of retirees set fire to each others' condos!  


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But but but -- Florida is ZIMBABWE! (2.00 / 1)

That's no joke- those retirees are RUTHLESS.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Simple minded and fair at best... but seat (none / 0)

em anyway.  You don't win by getting close.. you win by getting 50%+1.

After Obama gets nominated.. I'm pretty sure Clinton will continue complaining that she "almost" won and there should be some kind of runner-up prize.

Wahhh.


by Priest Valon on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:28:47 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

Clinton rules:

Heads I win, Tails you lose


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:35:24 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

Since you, or at least Lanny, are raising a legal analogy for this dilemma consider this, from Andrew Sullivan:


Often in litigation, if the rules help you, they are iron clad, and if they don't, you look for reasons why they shouldn't apply. But that's not what's going on here. To use the litigation analogy, if you walk in to court espousing the exact opposite position of an earlier stated position, you lose, plain and simple. Your opponent calls it an admission, throws it in your face, and probably moves for sanctions. The judge accepts the earlier position as the truth and the later position an obvious attempt to impose a different standard of liability than what everyone agreed to before the litigation (or at an earlier point in the litigation).

Worst of all, you lose all credibility with the judge, which any litigator will tell you is the most important weapon in your arsenal. By Ann's analogy, Clinton loses (and gets sanctioned).

Lord knows I'd like to litigate that case.

Poster quoted by Andrew Sullivan - Litigant Or Sociopath? The Atlantic 24 May 08

Sounds like someone knows what they are talking about, no?


by Shaun Appleby on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:36:13 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

"Simple and Fair" doesn't quite capture it for me.

"Fair and Balanced"... yes, that seems much more apropos.


by redwoodsummer on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:36:54 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

I'd say it's more like dumb and dumber.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:45:42 PM EST

Just Once (none / 0)

Just once I would like Clinton supporters to acknowledge a few things: (1) many people in MI and FL did not vote or (in MI) voted in the Republican primary because they were told that their Democratic votes would not count; (2) Clinton was fine with this situation until it became necessary for her to get these delegates; (3) seating the delegates as is completely disregards people who would have voted in the Democratic primary but stayed home or voted Republican after being told that their votes would not count.

I know a few people have been arguing that turnout was high historically in those two states.  Well, that doesn't mean a whole lot.  As this study notes, MI and FL were two of only three states where fewer Democrats turned out than voted for Kerry in the 2004 GE (the other state was Arizona).  This year has seen historic turnout nationwide, but the turnout ratio in those states is noticeably lower than it should be.  Incidentally, the study projects that close to 2 million people did not vote between those two states after being told that their votes were worthless.

http://www.dcourage.com/Nini%20-%20Probl em%20with%20Existing%20FL%20and%20MI%20P rimaries.pdf

Anyway, the R&B Committee will seat delegates from both states in a way that probably will not make either camp completely happy.  Of course, this is unlikely to affect the outcome, and so it almost makes no difference.


by rfahey22 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 11:57:06 PM EST

Re: This is how 'Hillary Hate' (TM) starts (2.00 / 3)

You know, I really didn't have anything against the Clintons at all.  I was a bit suspicious of them at the beginning of the primary season.  But I finally put a finger on why I have found my dislike for them growing: it's this CONSTANT 'pissing on me and telling me it's raining' crap that they INSIST on foisting on me and other 'high information' voters.  The cannot tell it like it is...unless they are winning.

"Abortion is a tragedy" per HRC, BUT.......after distorting BO's 'present' votes with Planned Parenthood's blessing...only HRC is the ONE TRUE PR0-CHOICE candidate!

'The real number is 2025 delegates'....until HRC started losing then 'real number is NOT 2025'.

'Michigan and Florida broke the rules and they must pay'...to 'We must not DISENFRANCHISE those voters!!!!!!!!'.

'Caucus states don't matter because they don't truly represent the real GE voters'....funny, nothing was said about that BEFORE the primary season.

Barack Obama mentioned 'Ronald Reagan in his speech in Nevada, RONALD REAGAN!'....fast forward to a week ago or so and HRC is TRUMPETING the fact that 'Karl Rove says I'm the better GE candidate!'.

I think this is the biggest reason people get upset so quickly with mouthpieces of the Clinton campaign.  This self-righteous indignation is so hilariously hypocritical, I don't know whether to laugh or to be frightened that someone actually believes that the 'high information' voters of the blogosphere would believe this tripe.


by yankeeinmemphis on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:03:26 AM EST

Re: This is how 'Hillary Hate' (TM) starts (none / 0)

What's really frightening is that in some cases they're right.


by sneakers563 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:44:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More Hillary Talking Points... (2.00 / 1)

in the guise of independent thought.

There's a great article on Politico today that offers up a solution to the questions that will be taken up by the Rules and Bylaws Committee of the DNC (RBC) on May 31st, and I think it's worth a mention here.  It might also be worth passing on to the members of the RBC - just in case they still have an open mind where my family's voting rights are concerned.

Does this diarist think we are stupid? This is pure spin...Clinton style...via Lanny Davis - perhaps the only vocal supporter of Clinton left on the tube. Actually I am surprised he can write.

Anyway - this might as well have been posted on hillary.com.

"An article in Politico has a solution"...as though this is somehow NOT connected to the Clinton Campaign.

C'mon guys! You can do better than this.

Actually, I saw this article over at Daily Kos which offers a critique of this new plan:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/26/ 231151/819/405/523352


by Newcomer2 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:07:26 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

This is profoundly dishonest--even for Lanny Davis.

Remember when he wrote that WSJ Op-Ed piece smearing DailyKos and MoveOn.org as anti-semitic because they dared to support Ed Lamont over his buddy Lieberman?  If I recall correctly, he cited as proof a couple of random blog comments--one of which was actually responding sarcastically to a bona fide anti-semitic comment.

He was a dishonest hack then and he's just as dishonest and hacky now.  Nothing he says should be taken seriously.


by Captain Bathrobe on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:09:03 AM EST

Fighting the enemy is good... (none / 0)

Fighting the rest of the party is bad.

The Superdelegates will cast the votes that matter in the end.

The only winner to date has been Rush Limbaugh.

Winning is everything... It's how you play the game. Hillary is mortaging her political future on a fight against the candidate with more votes (i.e. delegates) and now a war on the party itself.
Using "they" as an attack on "us".

We want to win. We just need a candidate. Do you want to win? I'm sure you do.


by mcdtracy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:10:42 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

MI will be able to vote in the GE...
Doesn't seem they are that pissed off now..
within margin of error months out
http://www.pollster.com/08-MI-Pres-GE-Mv O.php
MI is about the same for Clinton.

FL?
Hey if they were really pissed..wouldn't McGeezer be ahead by double digits 5 months out?
http://www.pollster.com/08-FL-Pres-GE-Mv O.php
Yeah right now Clinton is up over McCain by six..
so what?

I guess what I am saying is that the polls in these States do not reflect the outrage...


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:19:23 AM EST

Light at the end of the tunnel (2.00 / 1)

I agree with most commenters here that this "proposal" is ludicrous and transparently biased.

However, just for kicks, I did some quick and dirty math (so quick and dirty that I would rather not post it here -in my defense I must say the different delegate counts are somewhat confusing mostly because I can't be sure I'm not double counting some of the delegates that have already pledged/declared) and came out with the conclusion that even if delegates were to be split according to this outrageously unfair scheme (which clearly they will not), Obama would come out perhaps a couple dozen super delegates away (perhaps less than 10%-20% or so of the remaining undeclared supers?) from clinching the nomination (I am also assuming Obama and Clinton split the remaining pledged delegates).

Again, I may be off by a few delegates, but it  seems that the most biased proposal that the Clinton team (which has been pretty shameless in what they are willing to spin) feels comfortable spinning at this point (but know full well they won't get) only gives them the tiniest of hopes of somehow getting the nomination (essentially by making a last minute hyper-contrived argument to undeclared supers about creative popular vote math of the type that requires you to add the last two digits of your birthday and multiply by the number you thought of).

what this tells me is that Clinton and her team are well into the bargaining stage of grief and know very well this is over.


by gustavoNYC on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:24:46 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

Posting a Lanny Davis article is not the right thing to do when you are attempting to present yourself as an unbiased diarist only looking out for the best interests of the voters.


by Sarcastro on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:39:43 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

The fairest would be to allocate those 57 pledged delegates, to Clinton and Obama by the same ratio of their standing to one another in the average of the most recent Michigan statewide polls prior to the Jan. 15 primary.

Your comments about the need to respect the will of the people -- of Americans -- just come off so heartfelt when I read a proposal like this.

...no seriously, this is really outrageous, Alegre. I used to respect your stalwart defense of Clinton -- despite the crazy odds, you chose to soldier on for the candidate you thought would be better for this country. But this is as egregiously unethical as it gets. You have totally lost my respect for pushing this proposal. It clearly doesn't reflect the will of the people, and is a transparent attempt at giving Clinton an unfair shot at getting back into the competition.
by randomscientist on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:44:51 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 2)

I'm glad this diary is up top.  If ever there was an example of how people can loose their moral compass in pursuit of power, this diary epitomizes that path.  

Only a person without a moral compass would suggest giving a candidate the delegates who voted against that candidate.  

Every time Alegre post, it strengthens my sense that  the right person won.  Not only is Sen. Clinton the "do anything, say anything" many (not all) of her supporters seem to subscribe to the same principals (or lack of).

I can't wait for the 31st to come and go and finally put this contest out it's long decided misery.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:48:58 AM EST

Lanny Davis? (2.00 / 4)

I'm sorry, but I call bullsh!t on any diary that attempts to publish a slanted article from a campaign hack and peddle it as if it came from a neutral source.  That sh!t's amateur!

Lanny Davis is a well known Clinton hack, and yet you fail to mention his name as the author of the piece.  Deceptive and sloppy.

Seems to me that there is a culture of deception at work here, from Jerome and the Hillary-bloggers, to the candidate herself, leading the charge in the deranged call to arms to bully the RBC.  Is it any wonder the supers are so turned off?


by haystax calhoun on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:07:15 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

How is splitting the uncommitted vote 50-50 fair? That's absolutely ridiculous. Michigan was an unfair election, but the voters who chose uncommitted had the option of choosing Hillary Clinton. They didn't. They did not have the option of voting for Senator Obama. How is it fair to allocate half those delegates to her when all those uncommitted voters had the choice to vote for her but didn't?


by College Progressive on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:08:43 AM EST

This primary (2.00 / 1)

Has caused some overzealous supporters to lose their ability to reason.


by mffarrow on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:45:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (2.00 / 1)

Oh desperation.

How many distortions can appear in one entry?

You state "The legal principle supporting that solution is pretty simple. In U.S. contract law, the party breaching a contract usually has the right to "cure" the violation during the term of the contract. But if the other party stands in the way of that cure, the breaching party cannot be FURTHER SANCTIONED [i.e. THEY CAN BE SANCTIONED FOR THE ORIGINAL BREACH) -- and certainly, as a matter of fairness, the party preventing the cure should not stand to benefit."

Regardless, this dispute is more about administrative law and not contract law.

Moreover, your point about "curing" the breach neglects the fact that other primaries were then underway and advertising strategy, candidate scheduling and other related issues make it unfair to change the rules in mid stride.

Why won't Clinton support a proposal to seat FL and MI without seeking an unfair advantage?  If it's about principle, rather than politics (which it isn't) she would.

At stake is Clinton's ego.  Obama has both the nomination and GE in the bag.  He did not "cheat" his way to making Ickes vote in favour of the sanctions or McAuliffe's reign at DNC.


Change is coming soon.
by jv on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:52:20 AM EST

Re: (none / 0)

Yeah, contract law has about as much relevance here as maritime law.  It's almost breathtaking how dishonest Lanny is.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:04:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More lies and distortion (none / 0)

How foolish of me to not know what you meant by "simple and fair".

Quoting Clinton surrogate Lanny Davis without attribution was only slightly less underhanded than the way you get your fake news article rec'd.

Disgusting.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:10:43 AM EST

Total Crap (2.00 / 1)

How on Earth do you think that any of the 45% who didn't take advantage of the opportunity to vote for Hillary should count for her now? How could her winning 55% of that joke of a ballot now be counted as 78%?  Senseless beyond belief.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:53:34 AM EST

Haha... (none / 0)

You can't be serious with this nonsense?

Oh wait, this is an Alegre diary. I think just answered my own question.


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:53:44 AM EST

why would you give Hillary (none / 0)

a percentage of the people who chose "uncommitted" over her when there were only 2 choices?

Why do you say "dismiss the wishes of 2.3 million Americans" when the election they voted in didn't even have Obama on the ballot?

How many people didn't vote because they knew the election wasn't going to count and because their candidate wasn't on the ballot?

And finally, are you so fatigued from trying to come up with a diary every day that you can't even write an opening sentence without a glaring grammatical error like this:

"Nothing anyone says to me will convince me that the fight to seat the delegates from Florida and Michigan (my home state) is nothing less than a fight for the voting rights of the 2.3 million people who turned out for their state primaries in January."

With the double negative you're actually saying the opposite of what you're trying to to say.

I think all the diehard Hillary supporters should pass the hat and send Alegre to Hawaii for a week before she has a nervous breakdown. She's obviously losing it.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:05:44 AM EST

"great & fair article on Politico" (2.00 / 1)

... It's by freaking Lanny Davis!

You intentionally left that out Alegre. You are truly shameless.

Check this out:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/05/a dventures-in-lannyland.html


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:31:56 AM EST

Re: (2.00 / 1)

Poblano's article is truly damning for Davis


by Theis on Tue May 27, 2008 at 06:18:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lanny is lame (none / 0)

Lanny is such a Loooooser.

What it like to the a campaign hitman for a losing campaign, nice end to his career.

in his defense I would LOVE his job, but I would be careful using a skill set that is out to destroy Republican be turned and used on my own, I could never do that.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

Lanny Davis has shown himself to be a hack the past couple of months.  This solution may be simple, but it certainly isn't fair.

Barack Obama should get nothing less that a 50/50 split of the Michigan delegates...penalized by half.  And even though Florida was not fair, perhaps Hillary can get a split of the delegates based on the rogue election...penalized by half of course.  This should be the best Hillary is allowed to get.  The real solution should be splitting both 50/50, because neither state held a sanctioned election.


by gorebeatbush2 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:33:29 AM EST

Alegre offers Lanny Davis as Solomon. ROTFLMAO (none / 0)


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Tue May 27, 2008 at 07:36:16 AM EST

Is this snark? (2.00 / 2)

Serious question.


by Rorgg on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:30:49 AM EST

Giving Uncommitted Votes To Hillary? (none / 0)

There's a reason why Uncommitted was on the ballot---it was an anti-Hillary vote. It doesn't even make any sense to give her any delegates from Uncommitted voters.

Talk about 'disenfranchisement' right there!


by slinkerwink on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:48:11 AM EST

Re: it makes up incrementally for all of the (none / 0)

Ah, so you feel that this plan is actually favorable to Clinton, but that it is right that it is so, because the other contests weren't fair to her?

Great argument.  You have just said that this plan is not fair as a way of giving out delegates.


by Tantris on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This has to be a joke... right? (none / 0)

Suggesting that Clinton should receive a single uncommitted Michigan vote in spite of the fact that she was already present on the ballot should immediately call into question the journalistic integrity and/or sanity of Lanny Davis. This is by far the most ludicrous and asinine proposal I've seen yet.


John McCain: The kids aren't alright, my friends.
by differance on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:55:02 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

Is this snark?  Serious question...

I mean, this is a joke of a plan, proposed by a partisan for Clinton.  You know, why not just go further and give Clinton all the delegates?  I mean, you can try to rationalize it with that commercial that was run nation wide and hit Florida.

Just go back to the original punishment, if you have to take a hard line on this.  Take away their super delegates.  Seat the other delegates as half delegates.  Give Obama some of the uncommitteds from Michigan.

Or, use the plans coming out of either state.  Anything is better than these silly partisan plans with an ulterior motive to give either candidate as much help as possible.


by Tantris on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:58:44 AM EST

On the plus side, no one believes you (none / 0)

Fortunately for the Democratic Party, the delusional "simple and fair" pseudo-solutions coming out of Clinton's camp will be dismissed as nonsensical political maneuvering --- the SDs, the rank and file, the media and any random rational person on the street all know these faux-outrage/faux-concern pronouncements are wrong.

NO ONE BELIEVES YOU.  This is NOT about voter enfranchisement, and the attempts here to make that case are laughable on their face.

Nice try, though.


by Slim Tyranny on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:20:02 AM EST

Re: so the people in FL who voted for Clinton (none / 0)

None of the FL votes count.  Why are you singling out Clinton's votes?  When the FL fake primary took place Dodd, Richardson, Edwards, etc., etc. were still in the race.  No one is singling out the Clinton votes.  I bet you feel a lot better after you realized this.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:56:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They'll have their votes counted (none / 0)

when they vote in the GE.

They will probably get their voices heard in the nomination race, but with some penalty - they can blame Crist and Wasserman-Schultz for that.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:09:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Poblano FTW! (2.00 / 2)

Poblano > Lanny Davis

Davis is arguing that Clinton should be given all of her delegates and the lion's share of the uncommitted delegates based on her standing in pre-election Michigan polling. Or, he might be so kind as to let Obama have (almost) half of Michigan's uncommitted delegates. Such magnanimity has not been seen since last night's season finale of The Tudors.

If Davis is arguing that public polls should be used to assign delegates, he opens up a whole can of problems, not least of which are that:

(i) The last public poll taken in Michigan that had Obama's name listed as an option was in the field from November 30th through December 3rd -- more than six weeks before the Michigan primary. (After that point, all polls pit Clinton against uncommitted). According to Real Clear Politics, Clinton held a 19.2 point lead over Obama in national polling on December 1st. But by January 15th, when the Michigan primary took place, that lead was down to 10.4 points. A lot had changed after Iowa, and it would probably have changed in Michigan.

(ii) For that matter, why not instead use a Michigan poll conducted six weeks after the primary, like the one Rasmussen conducted on March 6th? In that poll, Clinton and Obama were tied at 41 percent.

(iii) If the Clinton campaign thinks that polls are an accurate measure of the popular will of the electorate, it has trouble claiming the moral highground on the popular vote argument, when current polling shows Obama ahead of Clinton by an average of 10.2 percent.

If Davis insists on using polling to allocate the Michigan delegates, it would seem logical to use the exit poll from the day of the election, which has the virtues of being contemporaneous with the election and consisting of people who actually voted in it. What does the exit poll reveal? If all candidates had been on the ballot, support would have broken down: Clinton 46, Obama 35, Edwards 12, Kucinich 2, Richardson 1.

The exit poll also suggests that very little of the uncommitted support was intended for Clinton. By doing some very simple algebra, we find that uncommitted supporters would have given 77.1 percent of their support to Obama, 19.1 percent to Edwards, and 3.8 percent to Clinton had all names been on the ballot.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:50:36 AM EST

Re: Poblano FTW! (2.00 / 1)

If Lanny Davis had any shame he would be embarrassed.  

One good thing about the Clinton Dead Enders like Davis going ballistic is that they will have zero credibility when this thing is over next week and no one wants to hear from Clinton supporters.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poblano FTW! (none / 0)

Atrios:

The increased likelihood that there will be fewer appearances by Lanny Davis on my teevee is more than enough reason to support Obama.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Nothing anyone says to me will (2.00 / 1)

convince me"

OK, then debating is not your strong point.  Brave of you to admit that fatal flaw in your ability to communicate, but thanks for sharing it.  Makes the need for actual discussion with you much smaller and simpler.

But since you can at least read, I'll share something with you and your fan base.  I wrote it for MyDD but posted it on DKOS, since disagreeing with Clinton supporters is a punishable offense on MyDD:

You Want to Talk Disenfranchised?  Get in Line Behind Me.

Hi folks,

When I moved to Florida in the fall after six years in Canada I was looking forward to voting in the primaries and explaining it all to my son, now old enough to really get into the details and implications...

...and then I noticed that my vote wasn't going to count...  My first thought was "Who the hell thought of this?  Didn't a 'Florida 2000' alarm go off somewhere?"

When I switched over my drivers' license I filled out my state voter registration and put down "Independent" instead of "Democrat" - which I had been intending to vote in the primaries prior to learning it wouldn't matter.

As I peeled back the layers I became disgusted with everyone involved.

Then I go to the polls January 29.  I cast my vote for the one local issue that an Independent can vote for, and leave the building.  I stop by the Democrat Party table, have a cup of coffee and chat with the two folks there.  

I like to talk (you may have noticed) so I started an open conversation with them on the current state of the country and their party.  Told them how we had just moved back to the States and were all jazzed up about the election. In describing the lay of the land as I see it and how I think their party has been helpful, I mention that I supported Bill Clinton as president in the 90s.  I had just started listing some of the things he did well when one of the two leaned towards me and said soto-voice <sic>:

"You shouldn't worry.  There's a huge movement to get out the Clinton vote again."  She shared a commrades-at-arms smile that I suppose I was expected to share back.

The comment caught me off guard and I smiled uncertainly back.  Having never volunteered for political parties, this was coming from what from all I knew was an quasi-official Democratic party source.  It took me half a second to gather my thoughts, and as the smiles still hung in the air I asked,

"But I thought the delegates weren't going to be seated?"

The other half of the Democratic Party representation to Lakewood Ranch, Florida leaned in and added:

"We have it on good sources that they will all be seated in the end."  ;~)

I think he actually winked.  The pressure of appalled discontent building in my head makes the moment a bit blurry in retrospect, but honest-to-god I think he winked at me.  Sharing his scoop of information from his well-placed "sources".  With little-ol' me.  Because of course given where I live, my comments and my visible demography, I was a stereotypical shoe-in supporter of Clinton.

"I'm not sure that's very fair,"

I offered, watching his face closely.  It was beginning to show signs of recoiling - just at that stage when you have thrown your arm around an old friend you see in a crowd and begin to second-guess whether you got the right person.  And whether whoeverthehell you are now touching might be diseased, deranged or both.

"See, I liked Bill Clinton, but it's clear Obama is the person this year.  I had planned on voting democrat this year regardless, and while I could live with Hillary I think Obama is a unique leader.  Either this vote matters or it doesn't, we can't be playing with something this important.  I couldn't vote today because I was told it didn't matter."

I went on at some length as the smiles retreated so far they had dwindled into frowns which then immediately endeavored to fade off into the distance.

"As an Obama supporter, it doesn't make me feel very good to hear the people representing the Democratic Party tell me there is a plan in place to get out the vote for one candidate over another.  I'm a little shocked, and I need to think about what you're saying.  The whole thing, frankly, smells fishy to me."

And so forth.

Things were becoming uncomfortable around the table, and other than a mumbled defense along the lines of "we're only volunteers.  we don't know anything." it was a mostly one-way discussion.  Among the topics touched on was whether it was coincidental that I hear this in my plush snowbird-laden relatively white-bread neighborhood?  Would the Democratic Party be working to divide the state party along racial and economic lines with an organized effort on behalf of one candidate?  Have to admit I was mostly talking aloud in full lecture mode by the time the Man with Good Sources gave me the move-along.

"Thanks for coming out and voting.  Glad you're supporting a Democrat this fall."

An awkward moment conveniently passed, to let him know that I understood him quite perfectly.

"I need to go think about this some more, but there definitely has to be someone to write letters to about this.  Have a good day."

I went home and started searching online, found the DNC and Florida state democratic contact info and wrote a few letters.  Got an account on barackobama.com and joined the Obama Rapid Response group.  Made "chrisblask" accounts on DailyKos, MyDD, hillaryclinton.com, johnmccain, John Edwards, democrats.org, townhall.com, politico, HuffPost, Orange County Register, talkleft, LGF...  

So I've read a lot and written a lot and discussed a lot of issues with a lot of people.  I've done more research on each of the three candidates than I have dedicated to analyzing every other political figure combined. I checked vigorously to see whether Senator Obama was what I believed him to be.  To this moment he still seems to be what he says he is, and like Darian Dauchan I'm a little pissed off at him for making me care so much about all this.

But what really gets my ire up is the calls from Senator Clinton that she cares about my vote.  My vote has been tossed around like a ragdoll, Senator Clinton, and I know full well now that you weren't worried about my vote in the first place.

Now here I am Florida.  Waiting for the decision to be made as to whether or not the vote I was told wouldn't matter actually would have.  I was told not to bother registering as a Democrat.  Because if I bothered voting, it wouldn't count.

I stand here as a living example of the voters who did not vote in Florida on January 29, 2008.

I stand here as an example of all the Florida Independents who didn't register as Democrat to support their candidate.

There is nothing that can be done to fix the situation.  I am so disenfranchised that I didn't even get to cast my vote.  So don't tell me about the Popular Vote I didn't get to participate in, and don't tell me about being disenfrachised.

Anyone who wants to talk about feeling disenfranchised can get in line behind me.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:24:00 AM EST

Sure (none / 0)

I say seat the delegates at 1/2 vote each but in proportion to the results of the primaries.

This will not change the nomination math at all.  It might give Clinton a stronger hand in mandating the VP slot for herself or an annointed surrogate if that is her desire, but that actually seems reasonable given the closeness of the race.

There has to be some sanction on the states for their bad behavior, but I think that it can be done in a way that doesn't disenfranchise the voters.

I think that Obama fears the legitimization of the popular vote tallies in these states.  After all, we were the party who in 2000 won the PV but had the Presidency snatched from us.  That said, I don't think it's more than an image problem for Obama, and a small one at that.  Reality is, these candidates are very close in the results, so close that both need the SDs to win the nomination.   The SDs have the obligation to crown a king or queen, and they appear to be doing so -- with Obama.

Maybe they believe that he has run the better campaign (he has), raised more money (he has), represents a clean break from Washington at a time when change is desired (not quite, but closer than Clinton).  Or maybe they just can't see "taking away" the nomination from a viable African-American candidate (credit to the media and his campaign for painting him as the undeniable winner when in fact it's up to the SDs).   Or maybe they just believe that he would be the stronger candidate and President.  About half of the party agrees with this assessment, half does not, but it is not unreasonable.

Bottom line:  The SDs have had to choose, they have chosen Obama, while not some of our preference, it's a reasonable and a good choice, and FL and MI will not change this.   So go ahead, compromise already, seat the delegations, and let's get on with it.


by activatedbybush on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:36:49 AM EST

So disenfranchise everyone who didn't vote HRC (none / 0)

either by giving her their votes or ignoring them, and everything is just ducky.

Alegre/lanny: the only audience left is Superdelegates, and this kind of crap just makes them wince.


by steampunkx on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:38:02 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

No solution is simple and fair unless it promotes Obama's chance of winning the nomination.  So we can be sure to toss this one in the trash bin along with other proposal.


by JoeySky18 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:38:25 AM EST

As far as I'm concerned... (none / 0)

...pretty much any proposal, including seating FL and MI "as is," only has the effect of running out the clock for Clinton.


Finding God in a Dog
by maxomai on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

Both sides- Obama supporters and the Clinton supporters need to ask themselves what would the outcome by had Michigan and Florida followed the DNC rules and had their primaries on First Super Tuesday of Febrary along with CA,NY,IL,NJ,and GA. The result would be Clinton would have won Florida and Michigan by a 55-45 percent margin.
Here is why- Obama did not officially become a rising star candidate after he won those 11 state primaries after Feb Super Tuesday.
Hillary back then was still the establishment candidate.

If we had included FL and MI- Hillary would have picked up 183 Pledge Delegates. Obama would have picked 130 Pledge Delegates.

Hillary would have had 1017 Pledge Delegate on Feb 5 2008. Obama would have had 977 Pledge Delegates.


by nkpolitics on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:27:57 AM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL & MI (none / 0)

No two ways about it. Not counting votes is just so damn undemocratic.


by grlpatriot on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:31:41 AM EST

Go talk to Terry McCaullife (none / 0)

He and a cadre of Clinton supporters made it the way it is.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:09:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre - you may get in trouble for copyright (none / 0)

infrigement.  Be cautious when quoting articles from others - in this case Politico.  


by mishiem on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:34:43 AM EST

is this snark? (none / 0)

serious question.


by math on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:46:22 AM EST

Re: is this snark? (none / 0)

good question...and serious too.


by JoeCoaster on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have to come out of lurking here... (2.00 / 1)

I'd really like to see both states' delegations seated. But this proposal for Michigan isn't helping the case at all. Putting forth a proposal like that  destroys all credibility, and just plays into the argument that the Clinton camp is acting strictly for selfish reasons, rather than on behalf of the voters.


by HRC 2009 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:49:19 AM EST

For real? (none / 0)

Nah, common now, this has to be snark!

Really?


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:19:11 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL &amp; MI (none / 0)

The full delegations will be seated as soon as Obama has clinched the nomination and Hillary has conceded.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:12:31 PM EST

Re: A Simple and Fair Solution for FL (none / 0)

Any solution that is proposed or backed heavily by a strong partisan of either side should be discounted out-of-hand as being based on bias.

There are supporters of either candidate who can promote a solution that may be considered fair, but the more adamant the supporter is the less credibility they have as a voice of reason.

As the author of this diary is so extremely pro-Clinton this diary serves as nothing much more then a rah-rah-rah get-out-the-troops, we-are-offended diary, which is fine, but in reality that is all it is. The RBC will decide on a plan, and barring anything disastrous MI and FL will be seated in some manner. So the votes will count...


by notedgeways on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:14:36 PM EST

This Is Dishonest (none / 0)

Now you might recall that the proposals were backed by both Hillary and the DNC, and that Chairman Dean said the re-votes would bring the states back into compliance with the DNC rules that everyone's so quick to point to when they argue for the disenfranchisement of 2.3 million voters.  The only person standing in the way of that compliance was Sen. Obama.  As much as Hillary might encourage Obama to get on board with these efforts, he dug in his heels and refused, knowing it would rob my family of their right to be heard at our party's convention this summer.  His only concern was in keeping Hillary from gaining additional delegates.

Senator Obama did not have the power to stop this from happening.  You are correct that he "opposed it" but only the DNC and the MDP had to TRULY agree to make something happen.  The reason the compromise was blocked was that they tried to go through the state to do it.  It was blocked by some Democrats in our State House and the Republicans in our State Senate.

That last bit is important.  The Republicans wouldn't have given us a vote on it in the Senate even if all the Democrats in the house had gone along.  The re-vote wouldn't have happened with or without Obama's support.


by TooFolkGR on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:33:14 PM EST


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