Feminists for floor fights

Some believe Clinton is the stronger candidate for the GE.  At the same time, the length and bitterness of her campaign is taking a toll on her ability to mobilize the base.

I believe a floor fight at the convention would be the undoing of the nominee, WHOEVER it is... that the base would be so divided, we would not coalesce around either candidate.  This would doom the party in the general, no matter who's nominated.  This is not a particularly novel opinion.

Does this make me sexist - wanting Clinton to step aside rather than take this to the convention?

Full disclosure - I've wanted Clinton to drop out for a long time, because I wanted Obama to win.  But I never asked for that.  Because my partisanship doesn't give me the right to ask for her to drop out.  At least, my Obama partisanship doesn't.  But my Democratic partisanship does.

To take Clinton's 1992 reference, the election was considered over IN APRIL.  Bill had no real competition in June.  And there was strong awareness that late competition could damage him as the party's nominee.

How do we evaluate where is the point of diminishing returns - when Clinton's campaigning hurts the party more than if she just gets out of the way?  Many people believe we've already reached that point.  And we're being accused by some as sexist - as though that's the only reason to want Clinton's campaign to end.  

I resent that, because I think it's a very fair issue to consider - critical for the success of the Democratic ticket.  And I think it's disloyal to the party to smear anyone who disagrees with you about that.

I don't see a floor fight serving the US, the party, or the cause of feminism, for that matter.  All it can do is divide us, wedge style, with race-versus-gender being the latest wedge issue.  And the winner would be McCain - who also serves none of the above.

This proud feminist does not want to see a floor fight.  I hope we'll see Clinton suspend her campaign either a) ASAP or b) when enough delegates have declared their support for Obama that he's got the votes to win the nomination.

PS - Obviously the title of this diary was sarcasm.  Thanks for listening.



Display:


Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

I find it curious that Hillary Clinton is complaining so much about the media and Obama supporters not treating her with due respect. I mean give me a break. She's the one that said this:

.

And I TOTALLY AGREE. SHE SHOULD WITHDRAWL IF SHE CAN'T HANDLE BEING TREATED LIKE THE CANDIDATE WHO CANNOT MATHEMATICALLY WIN THE NOMINATION.


In the end, that's what this election is about. Do we participate in a politics of cynicism or a politics of hope? - Barack Obama
by stevema14420 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:26:24 AM EST

Um (2.00 / 3)

that's WHY she is still in the race, she isn't going to bow the the establishment or a sexist media or the Obama campaign.  IT IS standing the heat in the kitchen.  If you CAN stand the heat, why all the concern?


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um (none / 0)

Because she's the one complaining about sexism, about how she is taken out of context, how she is being disrespected.... and many more complaints she is whining about.

She obviously can't stand the heat anymore.


In the end, that's what this election is about. Do we participate in a politics of cynicism or a politics of hope? - Barack Obama
by stevema14420 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um (2.00 / 1)

I disagree.  I don't believe that protesting how you're treated means you're somehow not able to take it.

I don't like the term whining.  Even when it's true - and I don't know that it is in this case - it's kind of tainted.  Because that's what people are standardly accused of whenever they point out being the victim of prejudice or other unfair treatment.  So the accusation of whining can only have unfortunate echoes.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:57:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um (none / 0)

You don't believe that protesting how you're being treated means you're somehow not able to take it.  Neither do I.

But SHE does, and that's why that's the right standard to apply to her.  She brought that quote out after the ABC Philadelphia debate, implying that anyone who thought it unfair "couldn't stand the heat".


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

feminist here (2.00 / 2)

and I will follow Hillary Clinton all the way to the floor of the convention, if need be.  NEVER before, in the history of this party, has a candidate been asked by so many to step aside for the 'good of the party'- whatever the hell that means.  It has certainly never happened in a race this close, where, depending on the inclusiveness of the counting, either candidate can currently claim a vote lead.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:28:01 AM EST

Re: feminist here (none / 0)

You may be right.  I don't claim to have a historical perspective on that.  And if it has been unprecedented, that's a travesty.

But regardless of anything else, I do think there's an issue of "for the good of the party" here.  The level of competition and animosity has been damaging to the party and our chances in November.  I only see the situation deteriorating if we take it to the convention, and with even less time for all of us to reconcile.

Vote lead isn't the metric that counts, with all due respect.  It never has been, and nobody considered it a key metric until that became a self-serving thing to do.  I'll eat my words if you can find a single iota of evidence to the contrary, from this entire nomination process.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feminist here (2.00 / 1)

If the people supporting Obama force Clinton from the race, they can forget me and lot of other people ever considering for one second voting for someone we consider ill suited to the presidency on every single front.

IF you want any kind of shot of unity, Clinton needs to stay in the race. Her base is furious at the way she's been treated and we don't like obama or want him to win. If she's all the way to the end, and loses fair and square, then some of us will consider lowering ourselves to vote for him - the stinkiest vote of my lifetime.

Clinton staying in the race isn't dividing the party. People trying to force her out is. Obama is clearly disliked a lot by half the party. Clinton being forced out of the race for his convenience just makes him look more like the thug I already think he is.

If Obama doesn't like it, then maybe he should just drop out.


by glitterannebegay on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:21:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feminist here (none / 0)

" Her base is furious at the way she's been treated."

The longer this goes on, her "base" only gets more furious. Whenever it ends, the people who are furious now will still be furious then.

Whenever it ends with Clinton losing, the furious will still be furious. Everyone, but the furious, see that now.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feminist here (none / 0)

Nobody can "force" Clinton out.  What coercive power does anyone have over her?  It's only been Clinton supporters who have tried to coerce with their big bucks; I'm not aware of any other attempted coercion in this race.

I believe she's already lost fair and square.  I guess you and I disagree about whether that happens in August or earlier.  Personally, I'd like to see the supers make their intentions clear, just as the voters have.  And if the outcome is predictable, there's no further reason to stay.  This is not forcing anyone out, but also not pretending there's a real contest if it's effectively been won already.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

votes do matter (2.00 / 1)

and have since it was realized that neither candidate would be able to win the nomination without the support of Super Delegates.  Being a democrat, I would personally rather have the popular will determine the action of Super Delegates.


And I agree with one point from the commenter above: its not Clinton who is dividing the party, its those trying to push her out and those, who by all counts think Obama is most certainly the nominee, that continue to attack and vilify her.  Its the oddest thing really, why would folks like Olbermann and Kos and Tweety keep at it if they are so certain of a positive outcome for Obama- it makes no sense unless you factor in other motivations....
by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:45:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: votes do matter (none / 0)

You do love playing the victim don't you.
P.S. also love how you parrot the hillary talking points, "it's the oddest thing".
"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:49:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

forgive me (none / 0)

for ever having replied to one of your comments... If you vow to leave me alone, I will most certainly forgive you.  Please?  Pretty please?


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: votes do matter (none / 0)

Other possible motivations:

Spite
Ratings based on melodrama and media-as-entertainment
Sexism

I'm happy to include sexism as a possibility, but it's hardly the only possibility.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another feminist here (none / 0)

I'm not going to pretend I'm not aware of past campaign where the loser is asked to suspend their campaign.  There's even a word for it: "spoiler".  It's that common.  Most candidate do it without being asked.

Floor fights also pretty much universally spell disaster to both the winner and the loser of them.

The fact that Hillary Clinton is a woman does not change any of the underlying dynamics.  Neither does Barack Obama's African-American-ness, for that matter.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (2.00 / 1)

Well now we know how YOU feel.

Here's how I feel.

Since I have no intention of voting for BO and since I may leave the democratic party altogether if they FUCK hillary over as they have been doing by the biased media coverage and by the elite old white male dnc leaders calling for her to leave, then I have nothing to lose.

I could care less about the party because the party has abandoned me.

I don't care about Obama because he sucks as a candidate and I fully expect him to lose anyway.

So those are MY feelings.

A floor fight would be desirable, because I want to TAKE BACK the democratic party instead of giving it away to elite assholes that can't win an election.

Those are MY feelings.


by nikkid on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:28:13 AM EST

Re: Feminists for floor fights (2.00 / 1)

Somehow those "elite assholes that can't win an election" have thus far won more elections than Hillary Clinton's campaign.  Looks to me like they're pretty handily beating the people who presumably can win an election.

And how, exactly, has the party abandoned you?  Which of the values of the Democrats of old did you believe in, that they have since abandoned?  A better economy for all?  Sane foreign policy?  Women's rights?  Which is it?  Let's have some details.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:04:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

& btw (none / 0)

the title, sarcastic or not, is still sexist or at least belittling.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:33:26 AM EST

Re: & btw (none / 0)

It's sarcastic, which may be belitting.  I can grant you that.  I don't respect those who want to reduce this to simplistic identity politics, with-us-or-against-us, seizing moral high ground, etc.  Many of us are feminists, and that doesn't mean we have to agree about everything.

I don't see that it's sexist.  And if you're going to throw that accusation, I'd like to hear you explain why... in part for my own education, in part because we all deserve careful use of inflammatory labels like 'sexist'.

I also won't claim not to be sexist.  My perspective is that we've all been steeped in racism, sexism, heterosexism, and lots of other lovely isms.  We have to struggle against how we've been trained to think in these ways.  We depend on feedback from others, and we trust that others will offer it in a constructive and gracious spirit.  

So by asking you to explain, I'm not challenging your suggestion that it may be sexist.  But I'm certainly not aware that it is, I definitely wouldn't want it to be, and if it is I won't understand this without some help.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 26, 2008 at 01:51:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

maybe (none / 0)

is key.  I don't know you, I don't want to call you a sexist.  You title was, however, by its nature, quite belittling to anyone that would call themselves feminist, as I would.  However, I am not a woman, so the sexism thing doesn't really apply, does it.


And for your explanation, sarcasm is by nature, belittling isn't it?  Sexism is defined by belittlement as well.  
by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:28:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: & btw (none / 0)

Sexist? Are you kidding, why don't you just add homophobic to your list, and then you'd have all of your excuses for losing the leection.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

wow (none / 0)

you must have a ton of really diverse and thoughtful friends.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:22:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: wow (none / 0)

Actually I do. I am gay, I am Mexican, German, Native American, English, Irish and Polish. My friends and family come in many colors shapes and sizes.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:27:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thats great (none / 0)

I am sure you are a different person off line.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thats great (none / 0)

One would hope the same for you.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:31:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no (2.00 / 1)

still a feminist- still unwilling to let sexism slide just because it isn't to my benefit.  Still can't stand racism and homophobia.  Still can't stand classism.  I am pretty much as big a prick about my principles off line as I am online.


by linc on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

I think this primary race has become the Feminist Movement vs Democratic Party instead of Clinton the person vs Obama the person.  Many people have their blinders on, and might be too late by the time they see what opportunity they have missed.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:04:11 AM EST

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

No it's not the feminist movement that is up in arms. It's the bitter women of a certain age who are blaming all their lost youth and all their personal failures on Obama. Please do not confuse these women with the Feminist movement.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

I stand corrected...sorry for the generalization...Guess I'm just frustrated...


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

I can't imagine anyone thinking posts like this will win those "bitter women" to your candidate's side, can you?
And people wonder why some Clinton supporters will never support Obama?

by skohayes on Mon May 26, 2008 at 08:29:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

If you're conceding that Barack Obama is the nominee, which you seem to be doing, then why on earth does a floor fight make any sense?

You can't have it both ways.

I see this all the time: "She's in it to win/You're not helping your candidate who is going to ultimately be the nominee."

Which is it?  Until there's a clear decision, I'll be quick to point out that you're not helping your candidate by continually threatening not to support the nominee.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

Excuse me, I have never threatened to not vote for Obama. I'm only stating what is becoming plainly obvious- that Obama supporters are only hurting themselves and their candidate when they act this way, this late in the game.
I also never said anything about whether I agree with the diarist on the floor fight.
by skohayes on Mon May 26, 2008 at 07:07:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

Frankly, I think the damage has already been done. Even as a male, I'm completely disgusted with both the media and the Democratic Party for blatant sexism and double standards throughout this campaign. I've contemplated sitting out in November if Hillary is not the nominee, but now I actually want to see the Democrats lose in November. I'm angry about the process and I think the party deserve to lose.


by PhillyGuy on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:24:02 AM EST

Re: Feminists for floor fights (2.00 / 1)

Disgusted here too.


by Susan in Oregon on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

please voice your frustrations at

http://www.johnmccain.com

we are trying to purge the whiners out of the democratic party

thank you


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (2.00 / 1)

Who's "we"?


by Susan in Oregon on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:23:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Feminists for floor fights (2.00 / 0)

I don't doubt your sincerety, but I've met people for whom I honestly think any outcome, by any process and any series of events, that did not end with Senator Clinton as the nominee would have been, ipso facto, sexist.

It's nuts.  Senator Obama ran a better campaign.

You wanna complain about media bias?  Fine.  I want the candidate who, all else being equal, can use the media as an advantage and not as an adversary.

After spending a fair chunk of the last two months learning, ad naseum, about Reverend Wright I can no longer agree that the media has been soft on Senator Obama.

I could spend all damned day listing Clinton scandals or potential scandals.  I won't.  But don't think for a second that the Republicans wouldn't hit her on every damned one of them.

Have you noticed that, whatever else your misgivings about Obama might be, he has assiduously avoided mentioning any of them?  The closest I can recall him ever coming has been the constant appeal to move beyond the old politics of division.  That's a pretty obvious dig at a lot of people, the Clintons included.

But he hasn't brought up, by and large, the sorts of things the Republicans most assuredly would.  He hasn't used the phrase "Well, it's better that I bring it up now in the primary than it would be if the Republicans did it in October!"

He has shown class.  Maybe not enough for you, or for some others, but he has absolutely taken a soft touch on personal baggage.  I respect him for it, and I am frankly agog at how many Clinton supporters miss this fact.

She's gotten a damned free ride on most of the negative aspects of her biography.  That wouldn't last out the week if she were the nominee, and any self-respecting, intellectually honest supporter of Senator Clinton would acknowledge that.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon May 26, 2008 at 02:48:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Denver (2.00 / 1)

I believe a floor fight at the convention would be the undoing of the nominee, WHOEVER it is...

No, if Hillary wins the floor fight, she will also win the general. She's tough like that.


--donna darko. I don't read or respond to comments. There's too much hate and misogyny here.
by nonwhiteperson on Mon May 26, 2008 at 03:23:17 AM EST

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

There will be no floor fight.
Most of the remaining SD's will respect the conclusion of the Primary on 6/3.

On or shortly after 6/4...
Led by Carter, Gore, and SPH Nancy at least 80% of them will announce for Sen. Obama.
At that time I believe more SD's who have endorsed Sen. Clinton will switch to Obama.

They are fully aware with what happened throughout last week (inflated by the media in the RFK statement..or probably the more serious hyperbole equating MI and FL to more serious circumstance)and in no way, shape or form allow it to take place over the summer.
   The Obama campaign is already shifting to GE mode. There will be no last minute second thoughts...There will be no last minute stunning Obama revelation.

There will be only 5 months before the GE. Only 5 months. Our Primary went on for 18 months.
At some point during this time, the repulsiveness of Sen. McCain will override the repulsion some of you feel toward Obama right now.

sing along
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkBUx6Zn6 mo


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon May 26, 2008 at 09:38:33 AM EST

Re: Feminists for floor fights (none / 0)

Hillary can do what ever she likes. After the primaries are over the Super Delegates will do their job and the GE will begin with Obama as the nominee.

If Hillary wants to take it to the convention she will be going without a lot of the supers who support her now. She will be ignored as a sore loser who wasn't able to handle defeat and come the convention willed be soundly defeated on the convention floor.

Instead of the non-stop whining about everyone being mean to her and what a victim she is she should take a cue from woman who became chief executives in  other countries like Benazir Bhutto (Pakistan), Tansu Penbe Çiller (Turkey), Michelle Bachelet (Chile), Indira Ghandi (India), Golda Meir (Israel) and many, many others who did not win their battles to the top spot by playing the victim and blaming everyone else for their problems.

Being tough wasn't a campaign slogan for Bhutto and Ciller. They went to Bosnia when the bullets were really flying and the war was raging. They had to wear flak jackets and a market they visited was blow to bits after their visit. They didn't have to fabricate a sniper story they faced the real thing. Clinton is becoming an embarrassment to herself and everything she was supposed to stand for.


by hankg on Mon May 26, 2008 at 10:35:45 AM EST


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