MyDD :: We've given her dozens of breaks

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

the answer to your question: yes. the reason...

"Clinton rules" -- the term a number of observers use for the way pundits and some news organizations treat any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent.

by canadian gal on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:12:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This was not an innocuous statement. What would your honest reaction have been, Canadian Gal, if Barack Obama when asked the same question had said... "remember Benazir Bhutto"? Try to look at this from a less partisan perspective... it's not that the whole world is against Hillary in this instance. She said something truly revealing about her motivations and truly disturbing.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

it was innocuous... she mentioned at least 4 times before phrased differently to refer to the length of the primary season. did you actually watch the video? you cannot actually believe that she was invoking the assassination of a fellow senator and presidential candidate. come on, you're better than that.

by canadian gal on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:24:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes I can... and so do many other people. If you looked at this honestly you would see the same. Truly consider what you would be saying if Barack Obama had said something similar. Would you consider this "innocuous" then?

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

yes - HONESTLY if on at least 5 occasions BO used an analogy to prove a point that somehow included a relevant reference to bhutto then yes, i would not have a problem with it. because as much as i am partisan, there is absolutely NO WAY either candidate would suggest murder.

but it seems as if this is not an issue you can be talked down from - so....

by canadian gal on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok... shouldn't the fact that she brought this up 5 times be MORE troubling. That doesn't really make it better... in fact it makes it considerably worse. It means it's not a one time flub... but rather a thought out talking point. If I were you I wouldn't run around pointing to that as a way to defend her.

by letterc on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:45:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, what she has brought up at least 5 times is that the 1968 nomination fight lasted into June with a candidate who was fighting for the lead who could have won the general election, Bobby Kennedy. What Clinton was trying to do was to point out that there are heavily contested Democratic primaries that lead to (or could have led to) a Democratic general election win. What she meant was that the nomination wasn't settled in 1968 when Bobby Kennedy was shot, if he hadn't been shot, it would have been a contested nomination and he would have gone on to win the GE. It is intended as a counter balance to 1968, 1980 and 1984 as examples where a contested nomination lead to Democratic defeat in the GE.

Clinton doesn't need to stay in the race to be the person who would get the nomination is something happened to Obama, so saying that she is staying in case something happens to Obama wouldn't even make any sense.

Clinton's intended argument is bullshit, though. The 1968 nomination race didn't start until March, and the 1992 race was effectively over in March, although Jerry Brown stayed in until June, during which time he was alternately mocked and ignored by the press, and he didn't claim during that period that he was running to win anymore, he made it clear that he was running as an FU to Bill and his centrist rejection of liberal Democrats.

All that aside, it was a bad botch, particularly with the recent news about Ted Kennedy, and I suspect it has damaged her already non-existent chances.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:47:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The democrats lost in 68.

nevermind (none / 0)

thought you were saying something else.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:48:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nevermind (none / 0)

by Tatan on Sun May 25, 2008 at 12:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, this is a little off topic, but if you've ever been curious why I'm always defending people like ragekage, you should read this.

by sricki on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

hhmm.... awhile ago his attitude seemed to reflect the tenor of that diary.... but lately not so much.... and i have vowed not to respond to any more of his comments ever again. oh well.

in any case - you are a credit to the clinton supporters here and you generally elevate the conversation. kudos!

by canadian gal on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:35:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Heh, thanks, same to you. (2.00 / 1)

I got a little pissy earlier, though. Ah, well. I think we have good reason.

by sricki on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:39:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW, even if you don't respond to his diary, (2.00 / 1)

please rec it. It makes several excellent points, and I think it's more important for people to see that sort of thing coming from Obama supporters. A lot of them don't care what alegre, TexasDarlin, and linfar have to say, but they might listen to one of their own.

by sricki on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:42:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BTW, even if you don't respond to his diary, (2.00 / 1)

done.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:07:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I rec'd it too. Even I thought he was being too hard on Hillary, I agreed with his overall sentiment.

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:36:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, I notice it's on the rec list. Hope it stays for a bit. I'm guessing other Obama supporters will find him to be more credible than we are.

by sricki on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He's a known Obama supporter. Hopefully, it will get some attention. There's another diary good diary by likelihood zero here.

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by interestedbystander on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But we're only just recovering from being told our candidate is unelectable because he scratched his face. Do you see why someone might find this a tad more offensive?

I'm asking (2.00 / 2)

Obama supporters to consider the possibility that the world does not revolve around their candidate. As David Axelrod himself said, she wasn't talking about Obama.

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:22:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

David Axelrod was practicing the old political axiom of "when your opponent is digging themselves into a whole... get out of the way" (I'm totally messing up the axiom... but you know what I mean).

He doesn't want to be seen as politicizing this... that's what Barack means when he says he's a new kind of politics. Do you think Hillary would show the same restraint?

So he's saying something he does not believe is true in order to help his candidate.

Isn't that called lying? Or do you only use that word when attacking the Clintons?

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:32:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:38:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, he's not piling on that what is already a mess of trouble for Hillary... good for him. If I were part of the campaign I would completely agree and you wouldn't hear a peep from me about this. Thankfully, I'm not... so that I can share with wonderful people like you Drew, why I find this so troubling.

Yup...been saying it all evening. (none / 0)

If Obama and Edwards had gone around pre-Iowa intimating they had a right to stay in the race despite Hillary's inevitability because "we all remember what happened to Benazir Bhutto", there would be an outrage. The wreck list would be populated by alegre, TD, NH, linfar, more alegre, etc. There'd be calls for Obama and Edwards to drop out immediately.

But Hillary made the assassination reference, so the talking points are out in full force tonight. The hypocrisy is stunning.

should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?

by Firewall on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:04:36 AM EST

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (2.00 / 1)

yes tatan im sure you and the some of the others like keith have given her the benefit of the doubt many times. feh.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:05:03 AM EST

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (none / 0)

Please try to answer the question I posed honestly. Why is it so difficult to admit that her statement was offensive on it's face? What would you be saying if the situation were reversed?

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:14:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (2.00 / 2)

Because it wasn't offensive on it's face. You have to be very paranoid and harbor some very negative feelings about Hillary Clinton to believe she was talking about Senator Obama.

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (none / 0)

It wasn't just offensive but deeply troubling on it's face... Hillary Clinton is staying in the race in the hope that "something" would happen to Barack Obama. How can you not find that unsettling? Consider what you would be saying if Barack said "remember Benazir Bhutto"... or "remember Robert Kennedy" for that matter.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:26:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (2.00 / 1)

I will say that it is beyond frustrating on this website to have every remotely offensive statement by Hillary swept under the rug while we are subjected to diary after diary about "present," "sweetie," "bitter," and "likable enough."

And I mean diary after diary after diary. Can you guys finally see how ridiculous this was?

by Pat Flatley on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:05:43 AM EST

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (none / 0)

Don't forget the most ridiculous of them all - fingergate.

by interestedbystander on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (none / 0)

I have said this before, but Hillary should stay in the race till the end. As they days go by, she will become desperate and in turn she will say something stupid which will turn into gaffes, which then brings her negative even higher. This is a win win situation for Obama.

I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson

by obamaovermccain on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:06:43 AM EST

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (2.00 / 2)

That posit implies that you didn't see the interview where she said it, that you only saw a sound byte. That metaphor only works in the realm of deconstruction.

by NY Writer on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:13:32 AM EST

Re: We've given her dozens of breaks (2.00 / 1)

I did see the interview. It seems clear to me she was saying she's staying in the race because "you never know what will happen... someone could get assassinated". The parsing on display by her campaign and now her supporters is only adding salt to an already open wound. No Democrat should talk like this, no respectably figure should talk like this... and anyone that does speculate about someone's assassination shouldn't be considered a respectable figure.

I truly am shocked tonight by how low Hillary has come... it's a shame a lot of her supporters on here can't be intellectually honest enough to understand why.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:19:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When has she been given a break? (2.00 / 2)

She praises LBJ--she's a racist.
She fires a campaign worker for bringing up Obama's drug use--she's racist.
She fires volunteers for forwarding a Muslim email--she a racist.
She says she doesn't believe Obama is a Muslim--she's a racist.
Her 3am ad? Racist.
For Sen. Kerey mention's Obama's last name during his endorsement speech--she's a racist.

When has she been given a break by anyone?

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:22:50 AM EST

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

She is not a racist; she just ran a dumb campaign and Obama outhustled her politically.

35 years of experience and this is all she could muster????

I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson

by obamaovermccain on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:27:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

Come on Drew... try to be honest here. What would you be thinking of Barack Obama if he had said the same thing in regards to staying in the race against Hillary? Would you be out here defending him to all of Hillary's suporters?

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

Would you be on here trying to change the topic so as to avoid discussing his troubling statements?

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:29:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Err... (none / 0)

... well you're right here trying to change the topic so as to avoid discussing her troubling statements.

by kraant on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:48:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Err... (none / 0)

No I'm trying to discuss her troubling statements... i was making the opposite case to try to make the point... I was adding to my own comment.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:50:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Never mind then... Heh... (none / 0)

Sorry...

by kraant on Sat May 24, 2008 at 05:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (2.00 / 1)

I defended him on Wright, "likeable enough," the snub, and the (so-called) finger.

It felt so personal for me that I passionately defended him and Rev. Wright, to the point that I had a few friends unhappy with me. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what to say.

And I'm not changing the topic here. You're the one who said, "We've given her lots of breaks." I merely pointed out that she had not gotten any.

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:38:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

Well she got many from me.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

I sincerely appreciate that. I think that shows and you and I have a lot more in common than we do differences. We certainly agree on a lot more than we do with Cranky McSame.

For me, the notion that she would argue that she needs to stay in waiting for Obama to be killed is so ridiculous that I can't imagine a sane human being ever saying something like that. Especially when she dealt with threats to herself and her family when her husband was president.

Seeing as how she has been raked over the coals for everything she has said--and hasn't said--this year, I just can't imagine her even hinting at something like that.

by psychodrew on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:17:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

But she said similar things on five separate occasions. If it had been once you could imagine it was a slip of the tongue, an unfortunate choice of words. But she knows (and her campaign knows) how everything she says is glanced over with a magnifying glass. And yet she kept repeating it... If it wasn't what she meant to say wouldn't someone on her staff have said "pssst, Hill, someone could take that RFK thing the wrong way, better to talk about 1980 or 84" but she kept repeating Bobby's name and the idea of his unfortunate demise, always suggesting 'hey, you never know what could happen'. I ( and many other resonanble people) find that a deeply, deeply troubling explination for staying in the race.

by Tatan on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When has she been given a break? (none / 0)

It wasn't a slip of the tongue. She did repeat the statement because she wasn't trying to suggest anything bad.

YOU think that she was suggesting that Obama might die. For you to believe that, you have to harbor some very negative and cynical views of Hillary Clinton. Given the own threats to her own family, I just can't image her--or any other politician sinking to that level.