Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! [SAT Update]

Update 3--Before you jump into the diary, read Robert Kennedy Jr's statement:
It is clear from the context that Hillary was invoking a familiar political circumstance in order to support her decision to stay in the race through June. I have heard her make this reference before, also citing her husband's 1992 race, both of which were hard fought through June. I understand how highly charged the atmosphere is, but I think it is a mistake for people to take offense.

The night Bobby Kennedy was assassinated I was sitting behind a metal desk in downtown Los Angeles covering all the election news for City News Service of Los Angeles. CNS was  a little wire service but one that fed all the big dogs including the AP.

My boss was a hard boiled, tough guy named Chuck Riley who frankly scared the shit out of me, and I felt as if I were chained to a tiger for the evening.

I think it was about 9 p.m. when some one called to say that Bobby had been shot. Chuck turned white.  He took his cigar out of his mouth, shook his head angrily and then barked at whoever was on the other end to stop kidding around.

After he hung up he looked over at me which was easy as our desks were opposite each other and  so of course there was nothing to do but look back. Both of us were wide eyed with disbelief and for a few seconds we just stared at each other. "Someone got mixed up," he said. "It couldn't have happened again!" I nodded at him. He looked away and I remember feeling relieved to no longer be stuck in his stare down, but I also remember thinking, "Please, God. Let that be right."

We were wrong, of course. And  I never went home that night. We covered "the story" all night long, white faced, somber, half the time not knowing which Kennedy we were writing about; the old hurt and the new intermingling, bloody and sore and unbelievable.

Apart from 9/11 it was the most awful night of my life.

And I am sure it was for Hillary Clinton as well.

This jumping on statements as innocent as referencing the fact that Bobby was shot and so the voting went on is Exactly like jumping on her referencing LBJ in relation to MLK's legacy. It is gotcha politics!!

It is right out of the Karl Rove bag of tricks. And I am calling on all Democrats to cease and desist Right Now. Because the only person trashing the memory of Bobby Kennedy for political gain is Barack Obama in a tawdry and well worn methodology of gamesmanship that anyone who has followed this campaign is familiar with.

Hillary or one of her supporters makes a perfectly harmless remark but it has Potential to be misconstrued. And so it is. Pounce time.

This is the stuff that makes it so hard to like this guy. It is dirty. It is swift-boating, and it is damn well not okay. But more than anything else it is using the painful memory of  an aweful event in American history to advance his political agenda.

STOP!! NOW!! Senator Obama. I have had it, and so have all good Democrats. You do not twist an innocent comment and step over  the grave of a martyred American hero to give your opponent a black eye.

And if anyone dares to suggest that this is what Hillary was doing,  give it the hell up.

What Hillary was doing was asking people to remember other times that the voting has gone on--for whatever reason. That is all. And she has the decency under the circumstances now facing the Kennedy family to apologize for being swiftboated so that no further pain or slight can reach them.

Damn. That is what is Presidential here.

Update 1-- A statement from the Argus Leader, the South Dakota Newspaper where Hillary made her remarks:
The context of the question and answer with Sen. Clinton was whether her continued candidacy jeopardized party unity this close to the Democratic convention. Her reference to Mr. Kennedy's assassination appeared to focus on the timeline of his primary candidacy and not the assassination itself.
Update 2--There can be no doubt who swiftboated Clinton for her remarks. It was the Obama campaign in the form of Obama spokesman, Bill Burton who said:
Senator Clinton's statement before the Argus Leader editorial board was unfortunate and has no place in this campaign.



Display:


Re: The Night The Music Died (1.86 / 22)

"And I am calling on all Democrats to cease and desist Right Now....

then........

Because the only person trashing the memory of Bobby Kennedy for political gain is Barack Obama in a tawdry and well worn methodology of gamesmanship that anyone who has followed this campaign is familiar with"

Maybe you should start with yourself?


by reggie23 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:03:53 PM EST

introspection would be required (1.84 / 13)

Is that even possible for someone able to write the above diary?

Nothing is above exploitation with these supporters.
Nothing is off limits because they subscribe to the theory that says the republicans would do it so so should we.

You are asking a leopard to change its spots.

Ban these losers and let them write in the obscurity they deserve.

How long will jerome let these people stay just to drive up hits to his sitemeter?

How long will jerome subsidize these ideas for a few extra advertising bucks?


by ameridad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: introspection would be required (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, Jerome's a businessman.  I guarantee you that this site has never been more popular than it has been for the last few months. It's actually a good business model for the short term.  Unfortunate but true.  We''ll see what happens to MyDD after the nomination.  I will be an interested onlooker.  


by reggie23 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it can only be for a short term. (2.00 / 4)

Part of the allure is the juxtaposition of promoted insanity on a progressive blog.

Once it becomes clear that the blog isn't any longer progressive, it will get lumped into the fox/drudge bookmark cycle.

And there it will languish with about as much name recognition as credibility in its new demographic.


by ameridad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Extremely unprofessional (2.00 / 2)

It bothers me how few people are calling Obama's campaign on this. His election isn't a done deal. We can still change our minds, and elect somebody who has common sense.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Extremely unprofessional (2.00 / 1)

It's a done deal now.


by Rationalisto on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:49:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Extremely unprofessional (2.00 / 1)

Calling them on what?  They have said as little as possible, and have absolutely not piled on.  Obama didn't mention it at all at his rally.


by interestedbystander on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: introspection would be required (2.00 / 1)

business model?  it will become a site where people exchange brownie recipes.  Jerome will be posting ads for Sara Lee and Duncan Hines.  


by SovSov on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: introspection would be required (2.00 / 4)

So let me get this strait, Clinton says something stupid and the diarist is calling out Obama?


by anujtron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary made the same kind of gaffe (1.92 / 13)

she was hoping Obama would make.

This just shows Hillary is not ready for prime time.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't Hold Your Breath... (2.00 / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The house of cards is crumbling. (2.00 / 1)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:55:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so by your standards, what are we to make of (none / 0)

Michele's own words?

"I don't lose sleep over it because the realities are that . . . as a black man . . . Barack can get shot going to the gas station," Michelle Obama said in the interview, set to air Sunday night. "You can't make decisions based on fear and the possibility of what might happen."


by suzieg on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:03:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: so by your standards, what are we to make of (2.00 / 1)

Michelle Obama was answering a question about a voter's concern over her husband's welfare.

Hillary brought up the assassination comparison on her own, un-prompted and apropos to nothing.


Hillary is voting for Obama, so why aren't you?
by BrighidG on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:44:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah (2.00 / 27)

Unfortunately, "gotcha politics" became far game when your candidate and her supporters decided "Bitter" "Reverend Wright", and the time Obama scratched his face and inspired a week and a half of debate on whether or not he was secretly giving the bird to Clinton on national TV were important issues relating to Obama's electability.

Is the statement malicious?  No.  Is it stupid?  Yes.  And as far as stupid statements influencing the race goes, you guys have made your bed, now you have to lie in it.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:04:05 PM EST

that doesn't even scratch the surface (1.95 / 22)

► ABC Debate: Willam Ayers/Farrakhan

► "he snubbed me" at the SOTU

► "he gave me the finger"

► implying he's sexist, especially though Ferraro.

It's okay, when Clinton is driving the swiftboat.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 19)

Sure is.  Obama paid the price for trying to run a civil campaign.  But won anyway.

Now, let's watch the Clinton people grab and scrap for the lifeline he tried to throw them months ago by trying to avoid a campaign like this.  Only thing is it's too late now.  That ship has sailed.

You make your bed, you lie in it.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 17)

Hillary's not responsible for pushing any of those stories.  She was asked about the first at the debate, but she has never brought up snubgate or fingergate (which never really happened if you look all the tapes) and she's never accused him of being sexist.

Nobody--Hillary or Barack--has been or is being swif-boated here.  She stuck her foot in her mouth, so the media are going to replay it over and over again, and her political opponents are going to rake her over the coals for it.  That's the nature of our politics today.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 2)

Mojo for the most level-headed response I think I've ever seen on this site.


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:59:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 7)

She really, really pushed the "bitter" story, you must admit that. And that too was just an unfortunate choice of words for a sentiment both she and Bill and echoed in other circumstances.

Should Obama avoid behaving the same way toward an obvious gaffe? Of course he should.


by rhetoricus on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 1)

I thought Obama was about moving beyond the politics of distraction.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 1)

"I thought Obama was about moving beyond the politics of distraction."

Referencing a candidate's assassination as a reason for staying in the race, when someone has been threatened as often as Obama has is pretty damned distracting, but Obama STILL was too classy to jump on her statement. Too bad it is unilateral classiness.


by rhetoricus on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:35:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

I didn't see it as "an unfortunate choice of words." I saw it as an unfortunate point of view about people he does not know. I saw it as an unfortunate attempt at sounding psychologically sophisticated in front of the SF money crowd. I saw it as unfortunate that America got to see the real Obama after he swept all of those caucus states. I wonder if Wyoming still would have gone for him after realizing he had no clue about the composition of most of America.

Yes, I am a liberal. A big one. But I'm pragmatic enough to realize that liberals are the minority and if we really want change, we have to appeal to centrists. That Obama didn't know that is unbelievable. He deserved to take whatever he got for that "unfortunate" comment.


by SophieL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:00:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 3)

He deserved to take whatever he got for that "unfortunate" comment.

Perhaps you also think that Hillary's "screw the working class, Bill" comment (confirmed by 3 different sources and documented in a book written in 2001 by a campaign aide) should have been broadcast all over creation? Too bad Obama was too classy for that ploy.

You know DAMN well what Obama was trying to say when he said working class voters are bitter and don't trust government to solve their problems, and so vote social issues and gun issues instead. Bill Clinton has made almost identical comments.

In any event, your candidate's negatives went even higher after she pushed the "bitter" meme, and now she's lost, and Obama won. So I guess they both got what was coming to them. And now that we know how forgiving you are about a candidate's gaffes and giving them the benefit of the doubt..I suppose I could take your tack, and say, "I don't hear it as a gaffe, she must have MEANT that she's hoping for an assassination, so she can step in. Disgusting! She deserves whatever she gets for having said it.." But it's not what Obama would want.


by rhetoricus on Sat May 24, 2008 at 02:47:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

The difference between Bill Clinton's "almost identical comments" is that Bill made them standing on even ground with "the bitter people," not looking down on them, but from a real empathetic place. Bill's "I feel your pain" is different from Obama's "I see your pain." Again, it wasn't exactly what he said, but how he said it that revealed the most about his inner thinking. Very unattractive. Earned him the label of elitist, though most Obama supporters tried to respin that as an economic thing.

And you can call it negative if you want, but I liked that Hillary pounded him with that one with a figurative, "Who the F are you to say that?" Only an Obama supporter would find her rallying working class people as a negative!

Obama really does not get middle America. Over the years, Hillary has made it a point to educate herself. Obama could use a few more years of education.


by SophieL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:10:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 1)

"Screw the working class, Bill."


by brathor on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:32:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

If you want to think that Barack Obama is looking down on people, you will.

"He deserved what he got" sounds a lot like you REALLY want to believe it.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

First Obama psychoanalyzing people he doesn't know and doesn't intend to know. And now you, thinking you know me and how I believe. I don't WANT to believe he's arrogant and cocky. He BEHAVES in an arrogant manner. I am not the only one who has noticed this. When you think you're better than people, you start psychoanalizing them in public and you minimize their lives.

When I say he got what he deserved, I meant you reap what you sow. He didn't get pulverized. He got was called out on it. If he thinks that's unfair because he can't answer for what he believes (and repeatedly, he can't), don't give me excuses or blame Hillary (well, she said this first, or she did that in 2000).


by SophieL on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

Yu go Sophie, good to see yu here.


by linfar on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:52:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (2.00 / 3)

However, Clinton is entirely responsible for the words that come out of her mouth.  On 60 Minutes, she used exquisitely parsed her words to equivocate on the question of Obama's faith.  Then, today, when she could have cited 1980 or 1984, she actually offered the example of a presumptive nominee being assassinated.  

I have always agreed with Clinton's supporters that she is extremely smart and disciplined.  I just don't forget it when she does something like this.  This was no accident.  This was despicable.


by deminva on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

Of course it wasn't an accident.  She said this in some different form on four different occasions.  You are reading into it that Hillary used the assassination to stir up bad memories for political gain.  What political gain she would possibly get from that is beyond me.  That alone should indicate that your interpretation is wrong.

But you come from the perspective that Hillary is an evil human being and you are interpreting those comments from that prism.  In politics that is to be expected.  Also expected is that you jump on the opportunity to climb on your high horse and beat her over the head.  She said it.  She handed you the opportunity.  She is taking a whipping for it.  That's the way it is.

My experience is that when people feel morally justified in attacking someone, they can't be reasoned with.  So I won't stop you.  Enjoy your evening of self-righteous indignation!


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll bet McCain's happy (none / 0)

No one will be talking about his Pastor problems.  It will be all Hillary all the time.  There's been another outbreak of killer tornados in Kansas tonight (an entire town was wiped out) - but that news was pushed aside to replay what Clinton said.  Talking heads had to speculate on whether or not she wishes harm to come to Senator Obama.  It's insane.

And it is politics today.  Once Clinton's out of the way - the media will focus on taking down Obama.  Sharks must feed.  I hardly listen any more.  I read newspapers online.  There's less hyperbole and more actual news.


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:43:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that doesn't even scratch the surface (none / 0)

How about all of the SC campaign? That's when I realized my worst fears were true and jumped ship.


by Rationalisto on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hear, hear! (2.00 / 4)

  You're lately come to wisdom, linfar. I just went and read some of your past posts, and you seem to have had no problem, til tonight, with beating Obama over the head with every stupid thing he's said the last 15 months. Lemme see if I have this straight-

Hurts Obama = Tough, but fair, political smashmouth
 Hurts Clinton = Vile, disgusting, sexist, un-american woman-hating.

Do I have that about right? The karmic wheel turns slowly, linfar, but it does indeed turn...

Obama 08


by Kordo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The diarist who compared Obama to Wallace (2.00 / 1)

has no ground for complaining to ANYONE about being unfair.  


by fladem on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:39:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But It's okay if Hillary is driving the swiftboat (2.00 / 9)

you should apologies and move on.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:06:25 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 23)

Obama had nothing to do with this.  Quit trying to turn this into a backhanded attack.


by rfahey22 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:06:33 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 8)

Well, Obama planted a little microchip in Hillary's head that allows him to temporarily control her mind, so she only said because Barack Obama made her do it.

For shame, Senator! I denounce and reject.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (none / 0)

he did. His campaign issued a statement. You would have a point if his campaign had ignored it.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Sat May 24, 2008 at 08:35:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

RESPECTABLE CLINTON SUPPORTERS (2.00 / 12)

keep these trolls in check please!


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:09:49 PM EST

Re: RESPECTABLE CLINTON SUPPORTERS (2.00 / 2)

Are you kidding me? Anyone who thinks that this is beyond the pale is now a troll?

Are you insane?

This is the end of the line for her campaign. It is over. We wash our hands of this now. The only apology acceptable at this point would include an endorsement for Senator Obama. It is probably too much to ask her to resign her Senate seat but I think it needs to be done.

Any Democrat, ANY Democrat, who defends this at this point can no longer claim to be a progressive, can no longer claim to be a Democrat.

What Hillary said today was beyond the pale and beyond unacceptable and if there remain any Hillary supporters at this point they should hide their heads in shame.


by denniswine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: RESPECTABLE CLINTON SUPPORTERS (2.00 / 2)

I think the trolls he was referring to are the spam diarists who post junk like this and get rec'ed by people who don't even participate in the comments.


by chicagovigilante on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: RESPECTABLE CLINTON SUPPORTERS (2.00 / 4)

I agree with something you said.  Given that her candidacy has already failed, and this remark will just leave a sour taste in people's mouths right when she needs a dignified exit, I think there's a really classy and smooth way to put this behind her.  She could say:

"I'm deeply sorry that my comment mentioned political assassination in anything approaching a casual way.  Violence has been a horrific part of our national history.  Too often our greatest leaders have paid the ultimate price for their service to our country.  We become especially aware of this history, and anxious about it, when we recognize an emerging leader for our great nation.

"There can be no question of my deep respect for Barack Obama as a great leader.  There can be no question of my loyalty to him and to all my fellow members of the Democratic party.  There can be no question of my horror at the possibility of any political violence ever again.  I understand that my clumsy comment may have raised a question about this for some people, and for that I profoundly apologize.  As a show of my profound commitment, I hereby suspend my presidential campaign so that I may campaign for the next President of the United States of America, Barack Obama."

Anyone?


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: RESPECTABLE CLINTON SUPPORTERS (none / 0)

We can dream I suppose.  I still see this continuing to Snowball all the way to Denver.  I predict a mess.


by brathor on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:38:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: RESPECTABLE CLINTON SUPPORTERS (none / 0)

When the so-called "trolls" vastly outnumber you, it may be time to look in the mirror and ask yourself: Who, truly, is out of the mainstream?


by Rationalisto on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (1.38 / 13)

Wow, you are clinically insane.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:10:24 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 1)

Stupidity does not qualify as a handicap, park elsewhere!


Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can sombody dig up and old Linfar (2.00 / 5)

diary and laugh at her hipocrisy?


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:10:38 PM EST

Re: Can sombody dig up and old Linfar (2.00 / 5)

Did up an old diary? - The diary itself oozes of hypocrisy.  


by reggie23 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why linfar has even less credibility than (2.00 / 19)

TexasDarlin:

http://linfar.mydd.com/story/2008/5/21/1 42558/911 -saying that Obama wants to be kin
http://linfar.mydd.com/story/2008/5/16/1 6229/8619 -defending George W. Bush for calling Obama an appeaser
http://linfar.mydd.com/story/2008/5/15/1 25945/518 -calling John Edwards a traitor
http://linfar.mydd.com/story/2008/4/29/1 31920/436 -insisting the gas tax holiday is a good thing

I could go back further but what is the point.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:28:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why linfar has even less credibility than (2.00 / 4)

At least TexasDarlin and alegre hang out in their own diaries--I think they still believe.  Lin's just going through the motions: she drops a half-hearted diary, toodles over to His44 to beg for Rec support, and then stonewalls.

I think her heart's not in it anymore.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why linfar has even less credibility than (2.00 / 2)

I kind of wish linfar would have let alegre cover this subject matter.  I was looking forward to allusions of "trembling...with...rage" and this just doesn't deliver imo.


by 79blondini on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why linfar has even less credibility than (2.00 / 1)

Don't forget her typical white people diary - you know, the one she was banned for.  It was deleted here, but is still available at savage politics.

Tell me linfar - are you still wearing your typical white people T shirt?


by interestedbystander on Sat May 24, 2008 at 03:16:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 1)

I was wondering how a Clinton supporter would spin her apology to the Kennedys--since an apology certainly implies that the statement was, at best, tone deaf.

to apologize for being swiftboated

Lin Farley, gongg!  Nice job!  That's what she was apologizing for!

You're through the lookingglass.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:11:35 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 14)

In this instance, the only person "swiftboating" Hillary is Hillary herself.  She needs to make sure she gets enough sleep so she doesn't misspeak in such a manner.

Like you, my parents were both heavily involved in RFK's California and Los Angeles campaign -- they were driving home from the party the night he was shot.  Neither of them, especially my mother, have ever gotten over it.  Neither of them can speak of Robert Kennedy without their voices straining.

His assasination not something to be mentioned innocently in connection with the idea of another democratic candidate.

Someone of her generation (Hillary is only two years younger than my mother) should know that.  If she's too tired to realize the implications of her words, she should get some sleep and not be talking to reporters.  

You've worked as a reporter.  You know everything any candidate for President, let alone any President says can be misconsrued.  That's why they're supposed to choose their words carefully.  

Hillary didn't today.  Her lack of care made her her own worse enemy.  Even in context this comment sounds bad.  Out of context it sounds even worse.


the third eye does not weep. it knows.
by mijita on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:12:43 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 2)

Hillary Clinton issued the following statement today in Brandon, SD:
 
"Earlier today I was discussing the Democratic primary history and in the course of that discussion mentioned the campaigns that both my husband and Senator Kennedy waged in California in June 1992 and 1968 and I was referencing those to make the point that we have had nomination primary contests that go into June. That's a historic fact. The Kennedys have been much on my mind the last days because of Senator Kennedy and I regret that if my referencing that moment of trauma for our entire nation, and particularly for the Kennedy family was in any way offensive. I certainly had no intention of that, whatsoever. My view is that we have to look to the past and to our leaders who have inspired us and give us a lot to live up to, and I'm honored to hold Senator Kennedy's seat in the United States Senate from the state of New York and have the highest regard for the entire Kennedy family."
 
 
Transcript from the Argus-Leader's editorial board meeting:
 
HRC: People have been trying to push me out of this ever since Iowa .
 
Q: Why?
 
HRC: I don't know. I don't know. I find it curious. Because it is unprecedented in history. I don't understand it. Between my opponent and his camp and some in the media there has been this urgency to end this. And historically, that makes no sense.  So I find it a bit of a mystery.

Q: So you don't buy the party unity argument?

HRC: I don't because again I've been around long enough.
My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right?
We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California . I don't understand it. There's lots of speculation about why it is.
 
Q: What is your speculation?
I don't know. I find it curious. And I don't want to attribute motives or strategies to people because I don't really know, but it's a historical curiosity to me.

###
 

So, why is she the only candidate in history to be threatened that if she doesn't give up and go away she'll ruin Barack's chances and if he loses it'll be because she wants him to?  Do you know?  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 6)

Define threatened?  Cause she is certainly not the first person to be told that once you have no chance of winning you should probably give up.  And if she wasn't a 100x millionaire she would have been forced to give up since her campaign isn't financially viable.

I realize you are invested in this campaign in multiple ways but trying to make a martyr where none exist doesn't work.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 3)

Oh and BTW you only have to look at 72, 80, and 88 to realize that when someone who can't win draws out the fight because "they can" it never leads to us winning.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If she goes to sleep, (none / 0)

who's going to get the phone at 3 a.m.?


by bookish on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 15)

I don't think she meant anything vile - I think it was a mistake.

I also don't think this diary helps much by offering sentences like this one: "the only person trashing the memory of Bobby Kennedy for political gain is Barack Obama in a tawdry and well worn methodology of gamesmanship that anyone who has followed this campaign is familiar with."


by TL on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:12:53 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 2)

her big mistake was to not know that if she says anything that can be taken two ways and one of them is vile and ugly, that they vile and ugly one will be assumed true of her and she'll be smeared by those who 'know' her evil heart.  When you're vulnerable you can't speak when you're tired, you can make a point no one wants you to make, and you sure can't reference anything that the media and certain Barack supporters can claim that it's about him.  Hillary can never expect to be listened to and given the benefit of thinking about herself and not always about her rival.  That's the way it is, she can't speak off the cuff at all, she must go back to being scripted?  With friends like fellow Democrats she hardly needs pugs.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 5)

It is kind of like she is Jesus and we are all the Romans isn't it?

Oooooor, she made a stupid, unintentional gaffe and in this era of 24/7 news it is what they will be talking about all weekend.  She slipped up, not unlike countless gaffes that Obama and McCain have made and will continue to make over the course of the next few months while they battle it out.  There is really no need to blow it out of proportion.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (none / 0)

Unintentional gaffe?  Not a chance.  She made almost the same statement less than a month ago, as well as other similar versions twice since.  This was not a slip of the tongue, it was a practiced talking point.

And I'm sorry, all of the "timeline" spin notwithstanding, there is simply no way to view that statement other that "I'm staying in because Obama might get killed like Bobby Kennedy was."

It was inexcusable, and an apology to the Kennedy family misses the point altogether.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 06:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (none / 0)

I'm not sure why this was offered as a response to my comment.  

For what it's worth, I'm an Obama supporter.  Some people flew of the handle, but a lot of us didn't.

Please don't overplay the victim card.  


by TL on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (none / 0)

There's no mistake - she obviously referred to a time specific of events - period!


by suzieg on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (none / 0)

Well she's wrong on that front, since the Kennedy campaign began in May, not January.

But when you casually drag in political assassination, don't be surprised when that becomes the focus of the statement.


We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
by Jess81 on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You have no crediblity here (2.00 / 21)

Because the only person trashing the memory of Bobby Kennedy for political gain is Barack Obama in a tawdry and well worn methodology of gamesmanship that anyone who has followed this campaign is familiar with.

Unless you can show where Obama did this, it seems the only person using the memory of Bobby for political gain is you.


Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:13:06 PM EST

Re: You have no crediblity here (2.00 / 1)

Good point.

And I'll be waiting for that iron-clad evidence that Clinton was threatening Obama when she talked about RFK's assassination.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right. (2.00 / 2)

You'll be waiting for some time, because there is absolutely no one here who is making that claim.


by kyle in philly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right. (2.00 / 0)

I guess you haven't been reading the comments.

It's true that she didn't threaten him, but plenty here apparently believe that she is deliberately planting the thought into some whackjob's mind ("Omigod, she's said it once before!").


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:24:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're going to need a link here. (2.00 / 15)

Because the only person trashing the memory of Bobby Kennedy for political gain is Barack Obama in a tawdry and well worn methodology of gamesmanship that anyone who has followed this campaign is familiar with.

Evidence or retraction.  Hop to it.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:16:07 PM EST

Re: You're going to need a link here. (2.00 / 1)

retraction?

Are you becoming as delusional as the diarist?

The whole point of the soppy bullshit was to slip that line in hoping the hillbots were too weepy to notice its lack of supporting argument or evidence.


by ameridad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who needs to go to the trouble? (2.00 / 6)

She's swiftboating herself.  


by zizzybalubah on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:26:22 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 10)

STOP!! NOW!! Senator Obama. I have had it, and so have all good Democrats. You do not twist an innocent comment and step over  the grave of a martyred American hero to give your opponent a black eye.

There are times when I am here and feel like it's an alternate universe.  In reading the above comment from the diary, I got that feeling again.  

Sen. Clinton makes what at best is a insensitive and stupid comment and at worst..well I don't want to think about that.  

And you blame Sen. Obama?  

Please, please support your comment above.  Share one single comment he made that supports the assertion you make above.  

Obama did the smart thing and kept out of this, Sen. Clinton is doing fine on her own.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:26:34 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 8)

Yeah this is all Obama's fault. Right.

Honestly, any Clinton supporter who is planning on writing a diary that says anything but: "I don't think she meant it that way, give her a break", I would probably recommend going on a run.

After the initial shock wears away, everyone will realize this is nothing but a dumb gaffe.  To try to blame Obama for this hurts your candidate and any point you will make in the future.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:26:45 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 8)

This is the stuff that makes it so hard to like this guy. It is dirty. It is swift-boating, and it is damn well not okay. But more than anything else it is using the painful memory of  an aweful event in American history to advance his political agenda.

STOP!! NOW!! Senator Obama. I have had it, and so have all good Democrats. You do not twist an innocent comment and step over  the grave of a martyred American hero to give your opponent a black eye.

Crazy, insane rant.  


by Becky G on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:27:20 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 1)

This is where Clinton's spinning about "anything can happen" has come back to bite her, hard.  

Because she's said about a million times that she is staying in this race because who knows, anything can happen, that's the context in which people intuitively understood her statement.  

Is that a misinterpretation?  Sort of.  I do think she was talking about the length of primaries in that interview.  But, let's tease her statement a bit by asking a follow-up question.  

The interviewer could have responded, "The difference with Bobby Kennedy is that the race really had not been decided yet until June, when he won California.  On the other hand, there is realistically very little chance you have of winning the nomination.  So why continue?"

And what is Hillary going to say now?  Well, that anything could happen.

And then the interviewer can ask this question, "Like what?  An assassination?"  

And how is Hillary going to respond, after she just raised Bobby Kennedy's campaign going on into June and his subsequent assassination?  


by ProfessorReo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:27:25 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (1.18 / 11)

At best Hillary has proven that she is in no way capable of campaigning for much less serving as president.  If she's too tired now to not insinuate the assasination of her opponent (and sound gleefull about it at that) How can we trust her to answer the phone at 3am?  How can we trust her to not fuck up on this level when running against Mccain?

At worst she has just shown what kind of deplorable amoral person she is.  

This has been a long and telling campaign.  One thing it has certainly told us is that Hillary does not deserve the benefit of the doubt  Bitch needs to get out!


Continue the discussion: http://westernfieldsreport.blogspot.com
by SheriffChris on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:27:47 PM EST

Hillary communicating as an ADULT, to adults.. (1.00 / 2)

You know, Hillary was trying to communicate like an adult and the immature response was the response typical of children.

Why don't you give your spin campaign a break.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope this will allow you to be more empathetic (2.00 / 4)

When BHO or someone who supports him says something unfortunate I hope you will remember the golden rule. I am certain HRC didn't mean to sound like a carrion eater of some sort but she did. By the same standard calling a female reporter'Sweetie' wasn't meant to oppress or humiliate,but it could be understood as dismissive. BHO isn't the Messiah and HRC isn't Harriet Tubman. Over this long slog of a campaign they have both "stepped in it". The more you talk the more chamces you have to say something stupid. HRC said something stupid.


Ida B. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.-Mark Twain
by Ida B on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:28:59 PM EST

What, no tip jar? (2.00 / 5)

Yet another drive-by diary by someone with no respect for the Democratic nominee.

I'm tired of calling these sort of diarists "Clinton supporters" because that includes them with the group of reasonable people that is most Clinton supporters. Diarists that post drivel like this are simply trolls.


by chicagovigilante on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:30:08 PM EST

I wonder when the Hillaryis44 gang will come (2.00 / 5)

to rec this, they include:
Boston Whaler
the racist dot48
the 'infamous' basil9
Ronald
birdgal
1950sdemocrat (who changed their handle on His44 to turn-downobama.com)

maybe some new superfriends will come like
SONIA4HILLARY-who uses a lot of bold
Universal-the "super-genius"
dija
and all of the rest

It would be a grand old time...


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:32:01 PM EST

Re: I wonder when the Hillaryis44 gang will come (none / 0)

Upthread from linfar's call to the troops on His44 was this gem of a comment from "Blue Democrat":

MSNBC makes sure they have homo-boy Chris Cillizza & their `independent' nubian queen house pet on to both blasting her for what a horrific thing it was to say.
Clyburn undoubtedly will be rearing his ugly head. Fuck'em all!

Yeah, "homo"... "nubian queen house pet"... that's a Democrat talkin'!


by The Red Pen on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WTF Does This Mean?? (2.00 / 6)

Because the only person trashing the memory of Bobby Kennedy for political gain is Barack Obama in a tawdry and well worn methodology of gamesmanship that anyone who has followed this campaign is familiar with.

Please provide links or quotes to back up this vicious claim...


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:35:01 PM EST

Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 1)

As a presidential nominee, especially a trailblazer, you have to be careful with everything you say.  Just as Obama's "bitter" comments were parsed, this statement will be too.  She should've picked a better example, b/c the first thing I thought when she said it was "What the fuck Hillary?."


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:35:22 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 7)

You're arguing that Barack Obama is using Bobby Kennedy here for political gain?  That is insane. I never swear, but this merits it.  This is fucking horrible.


by Pat Flatley on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:36:59 PM EST

She seems to be (2.00 / 2)

switfboating herself

no?


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:46:27 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 2)

I think the comment is being blown out of proportion, but y attack obama. Axelrod publicly came out and sided with hillary. It was a stupid comment, u do see y it was an error in judgment to make that comparison right.  


by gatti1 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 1)

It would seem as if she is doing a fine job of swiftboating herself.  No outside help needed.


by Sauceman on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:48:02 PM EST

Swiftboaters make shit up (2.00 / 1)

Hillary did this to herself.  You couldn't make this kind of stuff up!


by rf7777 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:49:19 PM EST

What goes around comes around (none / 0)

Hillary supporters overkilled some of Wright's statements and Obama's reaction to it.

Well how does it feel now?

FWIW, I think Hillary made a stupid ass statement just to find some justificagtion for staying in when she didn't need to cite RFK assassination. She has every right to stay in the race and what I think was going on in her mind was to capitalize on a big name thing in her attempt to fortify her argument to stay in the race when it 3was not needed.


by Pravin on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:49:38 PM EST

Re: What goes around comes around (1.25 / 4)

Sorry, but Wright controversy was a legitimate one--it certainly became a legitimate one once he began speaking to the national media in the way he did.  Yes, legitimate questions were being asked:  Do Obama's beliefs correspond with his pastor's or not?  Why did he choose him as a spiritual advisor/mentor?  The following Tuesday, Obama finally disowned Wright--and the controversy diminished considerably.

THIS is not a legitimate controversy.  THIS is impugning the character of Hillary Clinton, by making her out into an evil politician so power-hungry that she wishes for the assassination of Barack Obama--and is even willing to say so publicly.  What Hillary Clinton said today was not divisive; it was a simple gaffe that, unfortunately, carried the potential to be interpreted in the most horrible, disingenous way I have frankly seen in a long, long time.

OF course she didn't "need" to recite the RFK assassination.  She could have recited the JUNE Democratic primary contest in California.  There, is that politically correct enough for you?  She's cited the RFK assassination once before (and strange...in didn't get any attention then...) clearly because that's the most famous, notorious historical event that happened as late as the month of June in a Democratic primary.  Her legitimate argument in other words:  Just because it's June (see Bill Clinton's nomination wrap-up, or the RFK assassination) the Democratic contest is not over!  The point:  Democratic contests often carry on as late as June.

Let's hope the media now gives Hillary the same huge break they gave Barack once he tried to settle the Wright controversy.  Something tells me though, that all hope is now lost for uniting this party.


by MMR2 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sweetie gaffe (2.00 / 1)

yeah, that lasted 2 weeks here and I didn't see you asking for a measured discourse.

Nice to see your intellectual dishonesty.


by Regenman on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:09:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sweetie gaffe (2.00 / 1)

It depends on how you want to spin what a "measured discourse" is.  What I said above was that Wright was indeed a legitimate issue--yes, for "measured discourse".  This manufactured controversy isn't justified by any means, and you know it.


by MMR2 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What goes around comes around (none / 0)

Are the drugs that powerful out your way? He had a friend who made some controversial comments during a lesson in church. She, on the other hand offers as a rationale for her campaign of hopelessness, that Robert Kennedy was assassinated in June. Her ghoulish remark was either calculated and therefore too horrible to contemplate or just bugfuck crazy. She's unfit for the office of President in either case.


by Shiloh on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:16:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Totally off topic... (none / 0)

So you're the reason I couldn't register "Shiloh" as my user name....

...nice to meet ya :)


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Totally off topic... (none / 0)

Pleasure to meet you, too. I took my dog's name to register here, but I may leave soon if the Hillary-thing doesn't finally stop. I want to see this site get behind the nominee and take down the neocons.


by Shiloh on Sat May 24, 2008 at 12:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not comparable (2.00 / 1)

The 1968 and 1992 Democratic primaries are simply not comparable.  In 1992, Paul Tsongas, Bill Clinton's chief rival, dropped out in March or April, so the race was politically over well before June, when Clinton mathematically clinched the nomination.  In 1968, Bobby Kennedy entered the race in May, and four weeks later was assassinated.  This race began in the first week of January, so these two primaries are hardly comparable to this year's.


by Brad G on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm ... (2.00 / 1)

Hillary Clinton made similar comments on March 6 about why she should continue:

TIME: Can you envision a point at which--if the race stays this close--Democratic Party elders would step in and say, "This is now hurting the party and whoever will be the nominee in the fall"?

CLINTON: No, I really can't. I think people have short memories. Primary contests used to last a lot longer. We all remember the great tragedy of Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June in L.A. My husband didn't wrap up the nomination in 1992 until June. Having a primary contest go through June is nothing particularly unusual.


by Brad G on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What goes around comes around (2.00 / 0)

Obama clearly said he did not share the controversial statements made. BUt he also made it clear that he understood what makes someone of that generation so bitter enough to say it.


by Pravin on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (2.00 / 7)

This made the Rec.List.

PATHETIC.


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:55:24 PM EST

Re: Wow. (1.33 / 3)

And why do you think it made the REC list?  Care to take a guess?

How about:  Many Democrats on myDD (and elsewhere) are sick of these kind of cynical attacks coming from the supporters of a candidate who--ironically--is preaching a new kind of politics.  

How about: It is obvious that this controversy is over nothing more than a harmless gaffe.  It is obvious that Clinton does not wish death upon Barack Obama.  


by MMR2 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:11:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (1.60 / 5)

It madethe rec list because linfar's pathetic Clinton Smear Machine friends all rec'd it.  Thank God this will be over soon enough and then they'll all get rightfully banned.


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary was tired? (2.00 / 3)

I'm tired of her using "tired" as an excuse.  Wasn't the Tuzla wacky thing b/c she was "tired."  Boy I'm tired or her being tired.


by SovSov on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:55:57 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 2)

Trash diary please remove.


by telfishbackagain on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:55:58 PM EST

Foot In Mouth is Presidential (none / 0)

Only in Lin's la la land.  For an awfully experienced candidate she sure knows how to "unintentionally" push buttons.

So either she doesn't know what she's doing when she references Bobby Kennedy's assassination or she does know.

Either way, that's not comforting.


by Regenman on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:00:19 PM EST

the irony is layers thick (2.00 / 1)


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:00:50 PM EST

Re: Stop Swiftboating Hillary !! (2.00 / 1)

Sorry but there is no logical way to chalk Hillary's comment up to anything less than just kinda