Clinton's Opposition to Revotes

The debate continues about the legitimacy of Clinton's current position that the DNC-imposed penalty on Florida and Michigan is "disenfranchisement" akin to barring women and African-Americans from voting.  

Clinton, of course, did not publicly oppose the penalty until long after the decision was made.  Indeed, other than some mild and frankly vague comments in a New Hampshire radio interview (right after she famously said the Michigan contest "would not count"), I am unaware of any public statement by Clinton or her campaign against the penalty until after the Iowa contest.   As the Florida journalist asked her the other day, "Where were you when we needed you"?  (She had no answer).

One possible explanation for this is that Clinton believed that the problem would be solved by a revote.  Some have even suggested that this has happened in the past (though I haven't seen evidence of that).  This explanation, however, faces a serious problem:   Clinton opposed revotes until at least mid March, about 2 month after Michigan and Florida's contests.

Take, for example, these two quotes:

"And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated." (Hillary Clinton 3/6/08)

"Our position is that the voters of Michigan and Florida have spoken." (Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson 3/6/08)

Here's more.

If she believed that the penalty was disenfranchisement, was a serious moral issue, opposing revotes that would let the voters in FL and MI have their say would have simply been wrong.  But that's what she did.

Let me be perfectly clear here.  I am afraid that Clinton's overheated rhetoric on this issue is not based on genuine concern, but rather political calculation.  Moreover, I am concerned that her rhetoric is poisoning voters in ways far more severe than the DNC's penalty alone ever could -- and thus sabotaging the party in November.  And I hope that her supporters will see that this is happening and tone it down.



Display:


Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 1)

If you think Clinton or Obama has the pure interests of FL/MI voters at heart, you're a fool.

I am with Clinton on this one because she happens to be right.  The original decision to strip all the delegates is garbage.


by therealdeal on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:36:20 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

I agree the original decision was a bad one.  They should have imposed a 50% reduction or some other penalty that would have been basically acceptable.

But they didn't.  And Clinton went along.  She agreed not to campaign there.  So how can she now claim this a great moral crisis?


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 1)

A 50% penalty would have been a slap on the wrist.  Just look at the GOP primaries:  because of their winner-take-all rules, FL and MI still had more influence than PA, NC, IN, etc. even with a 50% penalty.

The DNC had to strip FL and MI of their full delegations.  Otherwise, more jurisdictions would have been willing to move up their primaries, accept the penalty, and still have greater influence.


by Brad G on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 0)

You are exactly right and I don't understand why more folks don't see this.  From my perspective, FL and MI WERE the key races on the Repub side.  MI catapulted Romney back into the race, and FL catapulted McCain to victory.  If either of those had reversed, things would have played out much differently.

And that's what FL and MI wanted, and what the RNC and DNC were trying to avoid.  The DNC won, as they made sure nobody is going to want to do this again.  The RNC let FL and MI get exactly what they wanted, and of course, they will also be fully seated.


by sasatlanta on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 1)

Well, I still think Clinton's "sympathy" was entirely motivated by her own ambitions, but then again, as you pointed out, they both played politics with the issue. If the DNC hadn't so hamfistedly taken care of this issue back in August of last year, we wouldn't have to deal with it now. 50%, boom. Done, and we'd be well past this.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

If these two states had counted 50/50, HRC would probably have won the nomination.  Her big win in FL (which she would have had if both campaigned there) would have catapulted her onto Super Tuesday with extra momentum.


by sasatlanta on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

That's fine, but why blame Obama for blocking revotes, when by the same standard, Clinton blocked them for a much longer period of time?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:39:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 2)

there were a variety of practical and political considerations that made revotes difficult.  They maybe could have been dealt with if things had gone quickly.  But Clinton didn't even support them until March, and at that point, it was probably too late.

I wish Obama had fought for revotes (or rescheduling) right out of the box.  But he's not the one going around claiming this is the great moral issue of our times.  Claiming that we've become Zimbabwe.


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

today's english lesson (none / 0)

WOULD does not equal SHOULD, and if had said SHOULD then you and the diarsit might have a case. As it is all this outrage (Remember the name folks, the New and Improved Faux Outrage, brought to you by BHO supporters everywhere) is just spin bullshit and foolishness.


by zerosumgame on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: today's english lesson (none / 0)

I'm not outraged.  I think she's hurting the party unnecessarily and unfairly, but I'm well past the point of outrage.

If there is faux outrage here, it's coming from her when she compares the DNC penalty (which she agreed to help enforce) to disenfranchisement of women and blacks.


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: today's english lesson (none / 0)

yeah, damm all those blacks and women in MI and FL who want their votes to count...


by zerosumgame on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 2)

She's got nothing to offer, my friend, she laid all her cards on the table. Chill out, it's okay; I know you're concerned, but at this point, it's out of our hands, essentially. The superdelegates and Rules and Bylaws committee will make appropriate decisions, it'll be politically acceptable to both sides- I know your objections, they're certainly valid- but just keep this in mind as we go forward.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:37:46 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 1)

A revote would have been a terrible idea.  It would have rewarded FL and MI with tie-breaker status after they broke the rules.  If the revote idea went through in March, and scofflaw FL and MI were elevated to tie-breaker status, why shouldn't PA, IN, NC, and the other jurisdictions who abided by DNC rules and patiently waited their turn not be allowed to reschedule their primary date to some time after the FL/MI revote in order to gain tie-breaker status?  What would have happened in future Democratic primaries.

There simply have to be consequences for breaking the rules.  It is absolutely inexcusable for scofflaw FL and MI to have full voting rights in the nomination and/or the party platform.


by Brad G on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:38:44 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

There simply have to be consequences for breaking the rules.  It is absolutely inexcusable for scofflaw FL and MI to have full voting rights in the nomination and/or the party platform.
Absolutely.  If the DNC's rules are ever to have any teeth, they have to penalize both states.  50% on Florida, maybe.  Michigan?  That's a whole 'nother problem.  I say cut 'em 50% & split 'em between the two.

I still say (and I predicted this months ago) that the Supers should stand up and decide the nominee, then seat FL & MI.  Then both states get their delegates; but they are as irrelevant as they should have been in the beginning.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

I don't think its that simple.  In my opinion, a fair revote would have been the ideal answer.  The problem was always what constitutes "fair".

The voters in FL and MI deserved a chance at a fair primary, and just as important, the nomination process needed to include the fair opinions of these two states.  As I said, the problem was always what was "fair", and it makes sense that there was no practical way to do something fair.

As far as penalty, the hassle and cost of all this served as enough of a deterrent that other states will not want to do this in the future.  Plus, I imagine there may be some voter backlash agains the legislators involved, though it probably won't amount to a whole lot.


by sasatlanta on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course (none / 0)

I don't think even most Clinton supporters actually think that she's got the best interests of Michigan or Florida at heart because of all this.  

At best, she's doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

At worst, she's tying us all up in an effectively moot procedural issue that was going to get resolved on May 31 anyway in a cynical bid to control the narrative for some obscure purpose (current bet on: VP selection).


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:44:29 PM EST

Re: Of course (2.00 / 1)

I'm an Obama fan who doesn't blame her for trying.  If she wants to be VP and Obama says no, I think she should try to use the leverage she has.  If Obama wanted to avoid these problems, he should have focused on emphatically closing her out and not turned his attention to the GE.

I wrote a whole diary about this early this morning.


by sasatlanta on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:42:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"closing her out?" (none / 0)

He conceded states that he knew he wasn't going to win for many reasons, only one of which was because he was moving on to his general election strategy.

He also, for example, realizes that Clinton needs to raise money to cover her monstrous debt, and big wins are a factor in that.  Quite frankly, she's put the Democratic Party's good name at risk by managing her campaign so poorly.  Obama was doing her a favor; she needn't have started calling the disenfranchisement of two states in the primary a sin similar to slavery.  It's unseemly.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 1)

Respectfully, since I think this is a very good attempt to be even handed, no one who is objectively looking at the information can draw any conclusion EXCEPT that Sen. Clinton's position on Florida and Michigan is based on political calculation.

When Sen. Clinton needed the early states she supported the sanctions (and a near majority of her senior staff made up the group that approved the them); when she won the votes they instantly became valid and couldn't possibly be invalidated with a revote; once the possibility of a revote was dead Sen. Obama was to blame for holding up the revote and the only choice now was to honor the original will of the voters.

I'm not so much bothered by the do-anything attitude the situation involves, both because I'm used to it and it's not worth arguing where the line is for what isn't acceptable; my problem is this is all being done at the expense of the likely nominee and the Democratic party as a whole, because they are being painted as the villains. And all to either try and force herself onto the ticket or for a vanishingly small chance of being the nominee.


by werehippy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:44:40 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

You hit the nail on the head.  And the impact in November is exactly where my concern lies.


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here is how it is playing on FOX (none / 0)

The impression is that if Obama wins the nomination it is because he rigged the process not because he actually won in a fair contest.

It's time that Hillary was sent packing.


We shall overcome. Yes we can.
by Sam Wise Gingy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:46:51 PM EST

Re: Here is how it is playing on FOX (none / 0)

If Obama were to win the nomination by denying Florida and Michigan's voters representation then I would see his nomination as illegitimate. I would vote for the Democratic nominee, but many who find Obama's tactics repugnant would not.

If Hillary Clinton were "sent packing" for advocating that voters count I would become enraged and do everything I could to remove those responsible from any position in the Democratic party. Counting every vote is a fundamental democratic principle.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is how it is playing on FOX (none / 0)

And this is exactly why I am concerned about what she is doing.  Obama didn't impose the penalty.  Clinton didn't either.  Both of them were mum about it and both agreed to help enforce it (by not campaigning there).


Yet, at the end of the day, after keeping silent when something could have been done, Hillary is out there convincing people that this is a great injustice.  She's doing it for political reasons.  And it is going to hurt us in November.


There will be a solution.  Indeed, Obama's team has said they'd agree to something that would be quite fair:  count the votes but, like the GOP, reduce the number of delegates from these states by half.    It would remove the issue from the GOP arsenal.


But Hillary is out there telling people this isn't enough.  And that's the problem.


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is how it is playing on FOX (none / 0)

Yup.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Crap. (none / 0)

You see his nomination as illegitimate anyway, and you're looking for any silly reason to justify your spite.  HRC is trying to use sham election results to worm her way to a near-impossible victory.  Several supers have already cited her campaign tactics as a reason for not supporting her.

FL and MI denied themselves representation.  And only at the DNC convention, not in the general, although many HRC supporters are trying to conflate the two.

But Obama had nothing to do with it.  He respected the integrity of the DNC's rules committee.


by corph on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is how it is playing on FOX (none / 0)

Obama did not deny Florida and Michigan anything, the DNC denied Florida and Michigan.

It is wrong for you to blame this predicament on Obama. Obama had nothing to do with Florida's and Michigan's decision as to when to schedule their primary and nothing to do with the DNC's decision  to penalize Michigan and Florida.

If you chose to remove those responsible you must first look to Hillary and her supporters who made up the bulk of the DNC committee who made the ruling in 2007.

If you believe that telling voters as Hillary did that "everyone knows these primaries won't count" prior to the election does not invalidate the election as a fair representation of the voter's will then you don't have a reasonable standard for a fair election.

Unless the Michigan delegation is seated as is the whole issue is moot. Hillary doesn't pick up enough delegates in Florida to impact the outcome.
If the uncommitted Michigan pledged delegates are left uncommitted then Hillary still has a remote chance of challenging for the nomination, unless Obama rolls out another 100 or so supers in the next few days which just might happen.

All of the math is here:
http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/ fl-mi-by-numbers_21.html


We shall overcome. Yes we can.
by Sam Wise Gingy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 1)

Regardless of what Clinton's intentions are, democrats will be better off including vote from FL/MI in some form or other. What we should be thinking of now is how to bring this to a better end, without alienating the voters.


by devil on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:47:38 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

I agree with that.  But the problem lies in the way Clinton is attacking this issue -- which suggests that Obama's victory will be illegitimate and the Democrats don't care about the people of FL and MI.  

The delegates from FL and MI are going to be seated.  It may not be exactly how Clinton wants, but that's reality.  Her overheated rhetoric is the problem.

by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a call for the refs not the players. (none / 0)

Both sides want to win and both sides want to see it there way.

That doesn't mean there isn't a right call, it means that you need a referee to make the call.

Where is the party chairman and when will he make the call. It is about three months too late.


We shall overcome. Yes we can.
by Sam Wise Gingy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:51:38 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 2)

My position is that the best solution is to seat the delegations as is. Failing that a re-vote or half-delegation were acceptable.

From what I've read that is how the Clinton campaign sees it. A revote was not their desired solution, but when Obama showed no interest in resolving the problem they accepted a re-vote as a compromise and even lined up donors to fund it.

Even a re-vote was not acceptable to the Obama campaign, who continue to insist on a 50/50 split of delegates which would render the voters intent meaningless. At this point it is too late for a re-vote and Obama shows no interest in compromising.  So Hillary Clinton's only recourse is to advocate for the resolution her voters support.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:53:22 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

That's not true.  Obama's campaign has said they would agree to the DNC doing the same thing the GOP did: count the delegates, based on the unsanctioned primaries, but reduce the number of delegates by half.  Since it's exactly what the GOP did, it would mean the GOP can't make an issue of it in November.


But it's not enough for Clinton.  Why not?

by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

The only statement I have seen is from David Axelrod  stating:

We are willing to go more than half way. We're willing to work to make sure that we can achieve a compromise.

Given that Axelrod's notion of "half-way" was a 50/50 split of delegates between the candidates I doubt he has any real compromise in mind. But in any case he did not proposed a solution here, and I have not seen any Obama official quoted offering the half sized delegation allocated according to the primary results.

Do you have a link? For that matter do you have a link to the Clinton campaign rejecting such an offer from the Obama campaign?


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

Here you go:  http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/st ate/article518651.ece

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2008/05/obama_suggests_halfsized _flori.php


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

Thanks. Obama may have seen the light.

In the article Hillary Clinton says:

If there were to be some penalty, it should be aimed at the state party, I'm sure there could be a creative approach to this. I'm not making the decision, but I still believe that the voters should not be penalized.

I agree with her, as I said above my preferred solution is to seat the delegations as is. I will be happy if she can win that from the RBC on May 31st. If she fails and the delegations are seated at half strength, I can accept that.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:30:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

I think that's a reasonable position.  

Look, an Obama and Clinton supporter found room for compromise!!!!


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

You're not the first Obama supporter I've been able to agree with here, but I'm always happy to find another.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (2.00 / 3)

During her visit to Florida, Hillary Clinton found time to speak to St. Petersburg Times political editor Adam Smith. Smith asked Clinton about her decision to support the votes in Florida's election only after it became apparent that she would needs those votes in the Democratic primary. Clinton dodged the question about timing...

Smith: Some people might say, "Where were you when we need you, when the Rules and Bylaws Committee were stripping away all the delegates you were silent and some of your top advisers, Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy, were voting for that penalty?"

Clinton: Well I don't agree with the decision of the Democratic Party I have been pushing them to rectify that decision.

She didn't answer the question.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/22 /florida-reporter-asks-cli_n_103077.html


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:55:53 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

I am quite tired of those who attach their own meanings to the words spoken, events recorded and actual facts of the matter. Business, politics, war, everyday life, even sports is all about adjusting to  realities, taking into account events and situations that are beyond one's control, and taking responsibilities for decisions made that have generated "unintended consequences". If the DNC leadership would simply admit that certain  assumptions had been made about these state delegations and the presidential nominating campaign that turned out to make the whole thing detrimental to the party, then all stakeholders could figure out how to get at least a part of what they wanted out of this disaster. The DNC Leadership could have stepped up and resolved this matter in a pro-active manner, but they chose not. Now they have to live with a less than perfect ending.


by pan230oh on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:59:47 PM EST

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

I don't disagree that the DNC gets some blame here.  I said so above.

But I am absolutely not attaching any false meaning to Clinton's or Wolfson's words.  They said what they said and their meaning was entirely clear.

The DNC will resolve this in a few short days.  But the question is why is Clinton out there poisoning voters against Obama and the party?  


by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

The DNC has permitted the public and candidates to advocate for their positions in the May 31st RBC meeting. Clinton is helping her supporters organize to advocate for themselves, it's called people power.

The real question is why, if Obama is so confident of winning the nomination, has he resisted and slow-walked any fair resolution? Why hasn't he done everything he can to make sure that the process appears fully representative of all 50 states and the territories?

The answer is simple, he is not so confident and there is a real risk that if he relents on FL and MI he will lose the nomination.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

For the reasons expressed above, the solution of counting the votes but halving the delegates is more than fair to HRC and respects the voters, while still giving a penalty.  And Clinton won't agree to it.  Indeed, she's suggested its immoral.


Respectfully, she is the one who is preventing a fair resolution.

by OaktownDad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's Opposition to Revotes (none / 0)

Disenfranchising the voters of Michigan and Florida would be immoral. I don't see where she has called counting their votes but halving their delegations immoral. She disagrees with the penalty but she has not rejected that solution should the RBC propose it.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's the truth (none / 0)

Neither canidate gives a shit about the "voting rights" of the people in fla and MI... they just want whatever will help them win

That being said this situation is not the fault of Barack or Hillary.... in fact they, like the people in those states, are victims of the idiot state officials and the DNC


by CaptainMorgan on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:03:40 PM EST

State officials. (none / 0)

What else could the DNC do?  Stripping only half the delegates would still have given these states disproportionate influence, tempting others to jump the calendar in four years.  A main source of the problem is that the DNC can't set its own primary calendar, and thus is subject to renegade states screwing with their system.

They had to play hardball.  MI and FL would have learned their lesson if one of the candidates hadn't dishonestly tried to get invalidated results counted in her favor.


by corph on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When the refs don't make decisive calls (none / 0)

the game is likely to end in a brawl.


We shall overcome. Yes we can.
by Sam Wise Gingy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:36:44 PM EST


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