Does Hillary Want VP?

I continue to be puzzled at the assertions that Hillary Clinton doesn't want to be Vice President, a position regularly advanced by most pundits. Really? She doesn't want to make history by being the first female Vice President? She doesn't want to return to the White House with the ability to perhaps pursue fewer issues on a national level that she's passionate about (healthcare for one) rather than focusing on all issues as a representative of one, albeit large, state? She doesn't want to continue to campaign for national office through November and then run again in 4 years, something she and Bill clearly love and thrive on? And perhaps most stunning of all, people really think she doesn't want to be the nominee apparent in 8 years? I don't know, I could be naive, but I sort of think it's a no-brainer. Then there's the fact that so many of her surrogates have seemed to advance the notion that she should be the VP, or at least should be offered it, Bill Clinton being just the latest.

From Time Magazine:

Her husband, for one, seems to have a pretty clear idea what he thinks she should get as a consolation prize. In Bill Clinton's view, she has earned nothing short of an offer to be Obama's running mate, according to some who are close to the former President. Bill "is pushing real hard for this to happen," says a friend.

Of course, I'm not so clueless that I don't see the downside to the Clintons' taking the number 2 spot. And I certainly see the downside for Obama. But as she racks up more and more delegates and votes and as she continues to dramatically outperform Obama in GE match-ups in the key states of FL, OH and PA, as the new Quinnipiac University polls out today demonstrate -- even after he's essentially become the presumptive nominee -- the more conventional wisdom is going to cement that he needs her, or at least would greatly benefit from having her on the ticket.

Update [2008-5-22 13:25:40 by Todd Beeton]:Hadn't seen Student Guy's diary in which he quotes Al Giordano from The Field asserting that not only does Clinton want VP but she's asked for it and has been denied.

The Field can now confirm, based on multiple sources, something that both campaigns publicly deny: that Senator Clinton has directly told Senator Obama that she wants to be his vice presidential nominee, and that Senator Obama politely but straightforwardly and irrevocably said “no.” Obama is going to pick his own running mate based on his own criteria and vetting process.

I can't vouche for Giordano's credibility but I would buy it. Certainly, Obama's, shall we say, lack of enthusiasm for picking Clinton as his running mate has been made crystal clear by his surrogates in the media. Now that more people are reporting Clinton's interest in the number 2 spot, will the media pick up on it as conventional wisdom and will pressure mount for Obama to pick her?



Display:


Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (1.75 / 20)

He doesn't need her, and doesn't benefit from having her on the ticket.  She brings with her a boatload of negatives and frankly is displaying very poor moral and ethical standards at the moment.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:30:04 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

While that may be true (not camping on that, just admitting it as a possibility) the rift in the Dem party may be deep enough that he needs to put her on the ticket to pull it all back together.


by PhilFR on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 2)

VP's do not win tickets for candidates - at best, they don't lose them for the top of the ticket.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 2)

I'm talking about solidifying the base here. This is an unusual year in a million different ways, so the conventional wisdom needs to be taken with a certain grain of salt.


by PhilFR on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

fair point.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

The assumption on these blogs is that all people who voted for one candidate or another are as dedicated as their supporters here.  Hillary not being on the ticket will only be a big deal to a tiny number of people inside the echo chamber.


by mikeinsf on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

Yes, but as we saw in 2000 and 2004, a tiny number of people make a big difference in a tight race.


by PhilFR on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

She probably has more who loathe her than who adore her.


by mikeinsf on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:18:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

Yes that's probably why she has 48% of the vote and still wins states even though she can't win anymore.

They all just hate her.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

 you can ignore whatever you want.  It's your bubble.


by mikeinsf on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, what bubble? I'm not even a Clinton supporter

Biden first and now Obama.

Hearing you talk and seeing the actual numbers out there I think I've got a better grasp on reality.

But if being disagreeable works for you, just go on and continue to insult your fellow democrat. I'll be working to undue your shit so we can still win and enjoy president Obama.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Funny, for me it was Gore first, then Dodd, then Obama.  

48% is a fine number until you realize that that's 48% of people who voted in the Democratic Primary. Whoops! There happens to be a broader election in November, and last poll I checked, she consistently polls under Obama vs. McCain, and back in November, there was that 50% "who would never vote for Clinton".

As for insulting Hillary, where? If you're bored enough, go through my posts and comments.  I don't think I've called her any names.  My complaint is with her shitty Iraq vote and her trashy campaign, but I have never called her any names.  


by mikeinsf on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:01:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wouldn't Make A Difference (none / 0)

Hillary would not win any states for Obama and wouldn't overcome his greatest weakness; lack of experience in defense and foreign affairs.
As you can see from todays 'Q' polls for PA, OH, and Florida, Obama is in deep do do. The New York Times article on Florida Jewish voters being against him further backs up this problem.
If the election is held today - McCain wins.
There is some fantasy thinking going on that says once Obama gets the nomination the party will unite and Obama will take a huge lead in the polls. He will get a spike in the popular vote, but it won't change the solid south (he's UP 8pts in Virginia today), plus Florida, all the border states, plains states, mountain states (not including Colorado) (total of 240EV's) which has it coming down to Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.  McCain needs just one state to win and Obama needs all three.  
Obama needs a VP that will make a difference. My two choices that will rock the world:

1. Mike Bloomberg
2. Sam Nunn

He names either and he wins the Presidency


by minnehot1 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wouldn't Make A Difference (none / 0)

Sam Nunn? ... LOL!!  That excites no one.  The average Joe doesn't give a damn about Sam Nunn.  Michael Bloomberg?  Why, just because he solves the "Florida problen"?  If he has a problem with Florida in that regard, he can pick Feingold.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

Many people voting for Hillary in these states are also voting against Obama, and they will continue to do so even if she is on the ticket.  It's difficult to say how much additional net support she would bring to his candidacy.


by catalysis on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 2)

you're quite wrong, we'd be for her whoever her rival for the job was.  We didn't start out complaining about his style of campaigning, against her character, and with name-calling, we grew to dislike him, over time.  He's trying to make it up, although he hasn't figured out quite how. Certainly dismissing any possibility of selecting her for vice president would harm his efforts. If he's sincere he'll put the nation above his personal ambition.    


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

If you were sincere, you would put the nation above your personal ambitions to see her elected.

If Hillary were sincere, she would put the nation above her personal ambition.

See how this works?


by Lawyerish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 0)

yes, before she won texas she said she was proud to have him as her opponent and she made it more than clear that to unite the party, she'll campaign for him if he's the nom and invite him on her ticket if she's the nom. He has an advantage, in that Hillary has left no doubt that she puts the nation above her own pride, she's like the real mother in the King Solomon story.  She's run her campaign like that, and that's one big reason her momentum goes up up up.  He hasn't shown this, and I'm hoping it's tactical, that he didn't want to give anyone the excuse that a vote for her would be a vote for both, and that admitting he'd like her on the ticket might make him lose his own supporters, the one's that base their desire for him at least partly on their visceral dislike of her.  This race going on does nothing but benefit Barack, if he's to be the nom.  Of course if it leads to her winning, that won't be to his personal benefit, but if he wins and he's fought it all the way to Denver, he'll be a far stronger candidate.  


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Oh, this is new.  Anna Shane is showing a deep desireto strengthen Barack.  Do tell.


by mikeinsf on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:03:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

She's responsible for the rift in the party by staying in the race, by floating the bs argument about popular vote (she said it'd be over by super Tuesday, so she doesn't really care about counting every vote), and undermining Obama's legitimate chances of winning in the GE.

She tried to offer Obama the VP slot when she was running in 2nd place, she has completely lost it thinking she's entitled to VP now, after all her shenanigans.


"I'm all for the delegate battle, and now that Obama's campaign is too, I'm all giddy. It's going to be the supers as kingmaker." J.Armstrong 01/19/08
by obscurant on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

Yes, and politics makes strange bedfellows.


by PhilFR on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, she's acting as if she thinks she is the preferred choice of almost half the party or something.

She has completely lost it.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Second place finishers are generally not given the VP slot.  It's happened less than a third of the time, going back to 1972.


"I'm all for the delegate battle, and now that Obama's campaign is too, I'm all giddy. It's going to be the supers as kingmaker." J.Armstrong 01/19/08
by obscurant on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

Seeing that the VP slot usually has a dozen contenders or so I'd say that's actually pretty reasonable rate.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I know Hillary Clinton had the <gasp> audacity to not just shut up & get out of the way - God forbid she attempt to obtain a nomination that initially the party appeared to support.  What a horrible person@@

In case you can't tell I am really sick of the meme that blames Hillary Clinton for the rift in the party.  In case you haven't noticed some people don't find Obama to be as likeable as others. And that is irrelevant of Hillary Clinton (ftr in the beginning of the primary my first choice for nomination was NOT Clinton, however Obama was NEVER a choice of mine).


by jrsygrl on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

In case you can't tell I am really sick of the meme that blames Hillary Clinton for the rift in the party.

I guess we could blame the frontrunner, but that doesn't make much sense to me, and it isn't productive in terms of November.

God forbid she attempt to obtain a nomination that initially the party appeared to support.

And if she were the frontrunner, the tables would be reversed and she'd have the support of the majority of the party.  She still has significant support, but her chances to win the nomination mean overthrowing the nomination process in terms of pledged delegates.  Her argument for FL/MI is an even more pointed argument against her nomination.


"I'm all for the delegate battle, and now that Obama's campaign is too, I'm all giddy. It's going to be the supers as kingmaker." J.Armstrong 01/19/08
by obscurant on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 5)

I guess that certainly explains why she's only a handful of votes and delegates short of winning the dem nomination huh!

She has so much baggage that she's won ALL of the big states necessary for any Dem to win in November (except WI and IL).

She has so much baggage that but for the SD, neither of the candidates would have enough delegates to get the nomination.

Yeah...keep pushing that Obama meme and see how far that takes you...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

All the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue whether you guys want to vote for him or not.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

First...never ass-u-me that I will be voting Republican DESPITE my support for Hillary...

2nd...Do you REALLY belive that Obama can win in the GE without a majority of Hillary supporters?

And they call her delusional...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 3)

This group here, taylor marsh's swamp, and hillaryis44 does not a majority make.  Don't speak for all the supporters out there based on your feelings.   Additionally, it's a long time until November and that's plenty of time for people to get onboard.  Just think, 6-7 months ago, everyone was always saying how happy they would be with either nominee, now look at it.  I'm not saying there won't be fence mending, but if you expect utter ass kissing by his part towards Hillary supporters, wake up, that ain't happening.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

do you not read exit polls?  HRC's supporters in shocking numbers are saying this.  unless the crew you describe is running to each polling station to skew the results of who they would vote for, you are sorely mistaken.


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It'll take us pretty far (none / 0)

The White House, probably.

I don't mean to be rude, but Clinton is more than a "handful" shy of the nomination.  She literally can't get the pledged delegate lead even if she got every remaining pledge, and the supers have either made their choice, or will shortly make their choice for Obama.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

It's a pretty big 'handful.'  She's four times as far away from winning as he is.

He will win every 'big state' that she won, with maybe the exception of OH.  Can you name the big state that she won that he won't win, other then that?

If it wasn't for SD's, Obama would already have won, as he has more then half of the available delegates.

I will keep pushing that Obama meme, and it's going to take us to the convention and eventually the WH.  You can be on board or not as you wish.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (1.00 / 1)

He's NOT winning PA without her...guarenteed.

And NJ is also up in the air...again, without her support.  


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 3)

Bull crap.  On both counts.  You simply don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Obama beats McCain HANDILY in both places without her.  Where are you pulling this crap from?  You guys are living in some sort of fantasy world, where Hillary is the end-all be-all of politicians and everything revolves around whether she's there or not.  It's maddening to even have to discuss.


by Lawyerish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

They figure that no one will bother to go to pollster and pull the data to refute them...they are spinning to lazy voters.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Of course....polls have NEVER been wrong before, correct?  So you're 100% right...and I stand corrected...after all...you have POLLS backing you up....


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I've never understood arguments which claim that Data is not useful to understanding a situation.

We certainly cannot tell if your assertion is true or not based upon its' inherent merits; so what is one to do, but to look for data to back their argument up?

Upon what do you base your prediction that Obama will not win two traditionally blue states, both of which are currently polling in his favor - and have been for several months?


by Lawyerish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to calm down (none / 0)

I have made a decision to try to behave a little better around here.  Maybe you can try to do the same.

Think about how long you would last on ANY job if you talked to people (and about people) like you do on virtually every post of yours I read.  I realize one has the freedom like nowhere else to release inner demons on web sites but one also has the discretions to suppress them once in awhile.


by lombard on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You need to calm down (none / 0)

Ok....I will try not to be so sarcastic...but you should call out Obama supporters as well, when you see them doing this.  

And just for the record, I don't consider any of my posts "mean" or and I don't call any specific individuals out...but I do agree that I can sarcastic, which can come across as mean spirited.


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The comment wasn't to you (none / 0)


by lombard on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:00:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You need to calm down (none / 0)

Umm I own my own company, and have close to a dozen employees.  If any of them tried to lie and spin the truth the way that I see some supporters doing, I would fire them in a NY minute.  People on this site need to stop trying to spin the facts.

BTW, I thank you for your newly discovered moderation, but since you are pretty much considered the Prince of Flame Wars, I don't think your critique carries much weight IMHO.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:46:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice attitude (none / 0)

"You may have a problem, but I don't.  And since I'm not anybody's employee I don't have to be nice.  And by the way, since you're also guilty, f**k you."

I may have issues, but at least I can see them once in awhile.


by lombard on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice attitude (none / 0)

That's not it at all.  SHOCKINGLY, you completely missed the point, although your paraphrasing was pretty cute.  The only people I tend to take issue with are disingenuous douchebags.  But hey, let me know where to send the thank you card to your shrink for helping you with your journey of self discovery.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Personality cult.  Projection.


by mikeinsf on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:05:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Umm (none / 0)

I can't name a big state he has won - I mean besides Illinois...so huh?


by emmasaint on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Umm (none / 0)

He leads Clinton in CA polls - is that big enough for you?


by interestedbystander on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Ummm  there is much conventional wisdom that Obama will NOT win all the states that Clinton could. Hence the issue re: electability in the GENERAL ELECTION (not the primary)


by jrsygrl on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:58:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Are we back to the "big states not named Illinois" metric again?


by lilnev on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ok, we'll keep pushing our meme (none / 0)

so long as you keep pretending that "winning the big states" in the primaries has ANYTHING at ALL to do with the general election.

You or I would win California, New York etc. as long as we were running against mcSame.


Not this time.
by jedley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:50:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

"a handful of votes and delegates "

A handful?

Your hands must be awfully big then. She's almost two hundreds delegates behind. To put this number into context: She would have needed about 15 more victories, each one the size of West Virginia in order to have covered come close to Obama's lead.

This wasn't a close contest in the end. Merely a closer one that in other years.


by Aris Katsaris on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Only the closest national campaign for the nomination ever.

Nothing special.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

A Thousand times no, never, under any circumstances. She is a disaster for a joint ticket. See today's twisting of Michigan as a small example.


by telfishbackagain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

I think you may be missing a few NO's.

A few more and maybe it will REALLY happen...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

In that same vein, only a few more millions in personal loans to a dying campaign and I'm sure she will win.  That plus a handful of unicorn kisses and fairy dust.  Oh, and a time machine, and a rule book about how delegates are allocated and how caucuses work.  Oh, and making sure Mark Penn's parents don't meet, ala Back to the Future.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is it time to start quoting Mr. King? (none / 0)

That's Rodney can't-we-all-just-get-along King...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (1.00 / 0)

Frankly, the only reason he would possibly need her is because there are just so many unreasonable HRC dead enders that would try to sink our ship out of spite.

Personally, if their internal numbers show that we (Democrats) can replace her "followers" with new voters and increased AA turnout, then I would rather he take a VP that doesn't have her negatives.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

I hope that's not a talking point.  


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

It's not.

It's an observation.

Can you think of another reason he would really need HER in particular that another Gov or Senator or whatever couldn't fill?


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 0)

you're joking, right? More than half of us have already voted for her and while we may accept him if we view his possible nom as legitimately won, we'd be enthusiastic if he could get along with her and job share.   If she's no where on the ticket, the DNC gets no more dimes from me.  I'm not a chump, if they don't care about me I'm not going to pay them for that privilege.  


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Firstly, more than half of "us" have not voted for her. Unless you are only counting certain states, and giving Obama a 0 in MI, which is at best, dishonest.

Secondly, you are deluding yourself a bit. Even if she ended up as the VP, there would be no "Job Share". She would have a well-defined SECONDARY role as VP, and that would be to execute the will of the President, and occasionally cast tie breakers in the Senate (which hopefully won't be an issue).

Thirdly, Part of your opposition to an Obama presidency is likely because you are a Hillary supporter first and a Democrat second.

There is a possibility that Clinton brings less to the table than other VP candidates, and that the way to insure that the downticket races are not negatively effected by a Clinton on the ballot (energizing the right) is to have a Non-Hillary VP Choice.

Personally, I don't believe that she is so incredibly exceptional that she needs to be on the ticket for it to be a winner. I don't believe that about Obama  either, I might add, if somehow Clinton manages to get the nomination.

Sure, there is a chance that if Clinton somehow gets the Nomination that AAs would just sit home for a generation, but I like to think that we would look for the greater good and vote Clinton on the issues anyways.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:21:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

so, what's your point?  


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Can you really ask that?

I believe my points are fairly well laid out there. Do you disagree? Are you even interested in having this discussion that has an opposing view?


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

All right. So lets go over this again:

I believe that Hillary is not necessarily the best choice for VP. If it turns out that she in fact is not the best, for logical reasons, then Obama should  not take her.

I also hold the opposite to be true. Do you disagree? Do you think that the only way you would support the Democratic Nominee is if HRC is on the Ballot in some way, regardless of any repercussions?


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I want a winning ticket. If I were in charge I'd say to them both, announce publicly that if you're the nom you'd invite the other one, and it would not be ceremonial.  Barack is smarter than some think, he may take a chance and seat Florida and Michigan and expect the super's to take his gesture into consideration, he'd still be ahead in pledged delegates, and if he won it would be seen as legitimate.  He may also realize that the best way to show respect to her supporters is to announce she'd be invited onto his ticket.  She'd do the same and we could all blog together.  


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I want a winning ticket, which is why I don't think that Hillary should be an automatic invite.

His best move would be to choose the BEST VP Candidate and get Hillary behind it even if it isn't her. Maybe work out something where he can make her a Supreme Court Justice or the Senate Majority Leader or something.

In my opinion, no matter what happens there HAS to be a penalty for Florida and Michigan in order for the DNC to not set a horrible precident.

I expect that they just seat them at half, giving Obama all the uncommitted in MI.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:43:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I'm not into punishing voters, i'm into giving them what they want, in this case a unity ticket with two grownups who ought to be able to get along.  


by anna shane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:16:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Regardless of what SOME voters may want, it's possible that Obama can make a stronger ticket without her.

Also, she has been pretty nasty on the campaign trail (Commander in Chief threshold) and I think she made her bed and needs to lay in it now.

Had she not gone with the "kitchen sink strategy" and ran a more positive campaign, as the Obama camp has for the most part then it would be a possiblity.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:52:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Tr'ed? Really? for that?

Absurd.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

McCain would take her. They would help each other.


by kitebro on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:32:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I've been wondering if he would have the good sense to ask her...McCain, I mean...I know the other one doesn't.


by not buying it on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

He might. He's a pinhead.


by kitebro on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

Uprated, TR abuse.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 2)

She is going to be on the ticket one way or the other .

Thats my opinion.


When I speak I have a southern drawl.. When you come down here Stop and say hello I'm an American from south of the Mason Dixon line
by lori on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:30:11 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

She's not going to publically FORCE her way on the ticket.  She will lobby behind the scenes and honestly, if the GE polls in Ohio and FL don't pull up (although they are very close for Obama, just not as good as Clinton) then there will be a LOT of pressure there.  I'm torn... on the one hand, I think the ticket is a LANDSLIDE victory... on the other hand, there is a LOT of baggage with Clinton... and that doesn't mean in terms of general election but in terms of bad blood from the nom fight, the Clinton people (meaning the advisors... many of whom are not the... best... of people although to be fair ALL political teams have that element), the fact you have 2 very dominant personalities and can she take a backseat to Obama, something she will HAVE to do (and frankly to me THAT may be the big unsaid reason).

I think he HAS to vet her for the position... given some of the other names tossed around such as Bayh or Strickland, HRC is a million times better (especially than Bayh whose selection would REALLY piss me off.)  

The other issue is to say.. yes she deserves it, but then would she have offered it to Obama if things were reversed.  I don't think she would and I think BOTH of them know that Bayh ( even the NAME makes me vomit in my mouth a little) was the Clinton VP.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

This late in the cycle she wouldn't have had a choice.

I'm not even sure Obama has now.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (none / 0)

I am skeptical of that. I think the DLC is actually seeing what can be done to stand in the way of that.  Truthfully I think they had a big hand in propping Obama for their own personal issues with Clinton.


by jrsygrl on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has not DRAMATICALLY (2.00 / 3)

racked more and more delegates. I am really tired of that meme. And no she does nto have more popular vote.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:30:24 PM EST

Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 1)

From Realclearpolitics Hillary does have the popular vote lead.

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI) and Estimates w/IA, NV, ME, WA*    

Obama 17,586,644 47.6%
Clinto 17,644,785 47.7%    

Clinton +58,141 +0.15%


by wasanyonehurt on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 1)

FL & MI do not count as of today...sorry, try again.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 2)

Anything that includes MI is just not a valid measurement.


by wasder on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (1.00 / 2)

Sounds like typical Obama talking points...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 1)

yeah evil little things called facts and simple math...sheesh


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Typical Obama FACTS. (none / 0)

Facts are facts and you are only fooling the fools by calling it spin


by eddieb on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 0)

why?

I mean, it wasn't as if Hillary took Obama's name off the ballot - he did so himself.  And his surrogates in MI campaigned to state if you want Obama, vote uncommitted.

Obama took his name off to sway Iowa.


by colebiancardi on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

REgardless of why somebody's name was not on the ballot, trying to count these votes as if they are as valid as a vote where the candidates were on the ballot is absurd.


by wasder on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:47:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

Well, if uncommitted was given to Obama it would make counting MI more reasonable. But I haven't seen the Clinton campaign signing on for this solution. That would give her a sizable but not overwhelming popular and delegate win in MI. Nothing big enough to change the course of the nomination though.


by wasder on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 0)

Oh, so no one voted for Edwards or Biden?

nope, Obama played Michigan - even refused to send in the legal work so that a write in for him would be counted in his favor.

He had his surrogates gaming the system prior to the primary.

He gambled with MI to win Iowa.   I don't think he should get all of the uncommitted.


by colebiancardi on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:51:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

How is it possible that he "played" Michigan when Hillary supporters dominate the committee that stripped their delegates in the first place?


Everybody, do the Flowbee!
by Jess81 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

According to the exit polls not that many no.

There are 6 or so uncommitted delegate seats that were snagged up by the unions. outside those the rest should go to him.

Not that it really matters as he stills wins either way.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (2.00 / 2)

Why?  Because the only reason to talk about the popular vote is to make a moral argument about the "will of the electorate".  That argument loses all moral force if it's based on a number that clearly doesn't represent the will of the electorate.  You can either toss out MI completely on the grounds that we have no meaningful information about the will of the electorate, or you can use an estimate based on exit polling (the "who would you have voted for if these names had been on the ballot" question).  The latter is imperfect, but at least intellectually honest.  Claiming that the will of the electorate as expressed by the popular vote is a moral mandate, and then claiming that exactly zero people in MI wanted to vote for Obama, is not.


by lilnev on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

If you don't care about the will of the people, and whether it is accurately represented by the claim "0 votes for Obama" in Michigan, then what the hell are you doing talking about the popular vote anyway?

But ofcourse it's not about the will of the people, nor about the rules either -- it's neither about democracy, nor about the rule of law. It's merely about the Clintons being sore losers.


by Aris Katsaris on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:24:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

You people are HILARIOUS!! You ACTUALLY BELIEVE that this shit is valid. Incredible.


Not this time.
by jedley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

Only if you DO NOT extrapolate Obama's MI support based on exit polling... which means you are disenfranchising the Michigan voters (see that argument can be used AGAINST HER as well).


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pop vote for Clinton (none / 0)

The popular vote is about who the voters want. and you just forgot the several hundred thousand voters that were for Obama in MI.

Obama has just as big a lock on the popular vote as he has on the pledged delegates.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does this mean that Bill knows (2.00 / 3)

that Hillary has already lost?


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:30:37 PM EST

Re: Does this mean that Bill knows (2.00 / 1)

Of course he knows she lost! The man has an IQ of 190 or something. He's a brilliant politician.
Which is of course the point.
The only reason Hillary still around is because the Clintons have decided to turbo up their experience and their formidable Machiavellian wiles to manipulate a straightforward delegate contest into being perceived as something else.
Because in the end, it all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is...
Not this time.
by jedley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does this mean that Bill knows (none / 0)

Bill Clinton DOES NOT have an IQ of 190.  He is a good politician and a smart man... BUT NOT Freaky Genius, 12 year old College Grad smart.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Does this mean that Bill knows (none / 0)

Neh, he's just your good old regular genius... ;)


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Ernst on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How could he believe otherwise? (none / 0)

The man is very reality based.  He may believe there is a glimmer of hope but can't believe there is any significant likelihood.


by lombard on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Will they allow themselves to (2.00 / 1)

go through the VP vetting process? Somehow I doubt it.

If May polling was predictive Kerry would be President right now.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:30:48 PM EST

Cherry picking swing states (2.00 / 1)

1) There are many swing states where Obama outperforms Clinton, including a new SurveyUSA poll showing him up 7 over McCain in Virginia.

2) If he wants to shore up support in Ohio or wherever, there are probably better choices than Hillary Clinton.


"I will veto every single beer!" -- John McCain
by fwiffo3 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:31:01 PM EST

Re: Cherry picking swing states (none / 0)

A few weeks ago, I would have said Sebelus... Now I'm thinking Webb has the inside track...

My top 3 guess (not my preferences)

Webb
Strickland
Sebelius


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cherry picking swing states (none / 0)

I think people are way overrating the Webb VP pick. He barely won Virginia, and it was by running up the vote in NOVA where Obama is already really strong. It might add a slight nudge to Obama's VA prospects at most.

To add to your list, I still think Ed Rendell is a  good pick.


"I will veto every single beer!" -- John McCain
by fwiffo3 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What about the Virginia poll out today, Todd? (2.00 / 1)

It shows Obama beating McCain 49 - 42? LINK!
GeauxBama!
by DailyKingFish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:31:14 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (1.50 / 2)

I for one don't think Obama has a choice but to pick her.

There is no serrogate on this planet that can take her place; Not Byah (a terrible choice for anyone) or Ted Strickland, or Ed Randell.  No one.  Just because they are NOT her.

If I were Obama, I would BEG and PLEAD Hillary to take the VP spot, and prey that she accepts.

That's the only way to unify this party, and a sure way to win the GE.


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:31:20 PM EST

Re: Does Hillary Want VP? (2.00 / 1)

Would Bill and Hill allow themselves to be vetted by the Obama campaign?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (1.00 / 0)

he would become the greatest 'appeaser' of all time.
Hillary has been deceitful and duplicitous and disloyal throughout the campaign, and Obama can't politically afford to be seen as rewarding the very behavior he denounces, nor would he himself ever be able to swallow it morally.
They're two entirely different species. Electoral strategy can't erase that. Sure, Hillary's a very capable politician, but Obama needs a veep who is both capable and honest.
Not this time.
by jedley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (none / 0)

Hillary has been deceitful and duplicitous and disloyal throughout the campaign

Only if you happen to be a hard core Obama supporter...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (none / 0)

Of the 50%+ of the country that view her in a negative way...bang up job of winning hearts and minds.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (none / 0)

Obama needs a veep who is both capable and honest

April 2008:  I can no more disown Rev Wright than I can the black community or my white grandmother...

May 2008:  I am disowning Rev. What's-his-Face...


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (2.00 / 2)

What could that possibly have to do with dishonesty?
Wright got Obama in trouble for having more extreme views, and Obama refused to disown him, just as I would never disown my gay friends or Republican friends just because they're different from me.
Then Wright shows his gratitude by dancing like a showgirl in front of the cameras, totally betraying the man who'd had the courage to remain his friend, despite how much was at stake.
After which Obama rightly had to say goodbye.

Who raised you? A pack of coyotes? Where's your humanity?


Not this time.
by jedley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:08:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (none / 0)

Well, sinec I am a Hillary supporter, so by definition I was raised by pack of cayotes, correct?


by Nighttrain on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:46:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if Obama even considers Hillary as veep (