by Student Guy, Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:57:35 AM EST
Tags: McCain underpants gnomes, Hillary as VP?, Obama (all tags)
I am ready for the worst you can throw at me, however I am ready to have a discussion about the state of the race as well.
It's the now-obvious attempt to peel enough support from him permanently. She is crippling a slice of the Democratic party, only to spring to life again if she's the nominee or on the ticket.
If anyone doubted the 2012 strategy...
links, please.
Links? I trust your quoting, but you did recommend reading the rest of something you didn't link to...
I forgot to add the links, they will be up in a minute or two.
thanks
to add them (smacks self for forgetting).
good to see you over on myDD.
I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the idea of a joint ticket, but Obama shouldn't be forced to do anything. Maybe you could change the poll around to include a few more options.
Honestly, it's pretty much a binary at this point.
In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
That One/Another Fella '08
I didn't mean to... let me look.
Sorry about that. It's fixed.
Something like, "Yes, because a joint ticket is our best shot at beating McCain," or "Yes, because a failure to do so will irreparably divide the party." Now, I understand that those two answers are linked, but one choice is based on an affirmative belief that it would be the best ticket, the other is based on coercion.
I just think that, at the point where we're at, the pure numbers of "yes" and "no" mean more than anything else.
This is somewhat baffling to me. VP doesn't seem like much of a prize for a woman of her stature.
I agree.
I thought this was an interesting analysis.
Not to be crass, but if Senator Kennedy has to retire, there would be an opportunity for her to elevate her role in the Senate.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/050 8/10538.html
I think she would have a better platform in the Senate to push her proposals (some of which I prefer to Obama's) than as VP.
Exactly. I would've bet cold hard cash that she'd want Senate Majority Leader before VP.
she asked/insisted/demanded that she get put on the ticket as VP and she got turned down (for now).
warning, reaching for tin foil hat, got it, lifting toward head and....
It is curious to say the least. Maybe I don't understand politics as well as I pretend to. But maybe there is something else going on. If she is chosen as VP, maybe she thinks she can be Obama's Cheney in the sense that her duties could rival that of the President. Or maybe she thinks that Obama is inexperienced enough that he could be persuaded easily enough to do things her way.
removing tin foil hat, lowering it, lowering it...
But I still that she's more stand-up than that.
Jesus, I'd hope so.
I know. After spening so much time trying to derail the train, now she wants aboard.
Completely agree. I have a lot of respect for Hillary Clinton, but that's balanced with what I consider a fair measure of her character. She's constitutionally (no pun intended) unsuited for the VP slot. Is she kidding herself or is she kidding Obama? If she sincerely believes Obama to be inexperienced and ill-equipped, does she imagine herself playing a Dick Cheney role in the administration? If so, has she noted that Bush gave Cheney that role willingly (and gladly)?
Taking her at her word in how she's campaigned against him, I'm tempted to conclude that putting her at VP would result in a constant power struggle in the executive branch between the VP and Pres offices. And that, would be a very bad thing. No, no, and no to Hillary Clinton as VP. It's not a positive use of her talents.
What a class act Senator Obama is. I wouldn't be so even-handed about the kind of crass, destructive power play we're seeing from Senator Clinton.
that this is the reason she is staying in the race. but
Senator Clinton has directly told Senator Obama that she wants to be his vice presidential nominee, and that Senator Obama politely but straightforwardly and irrevocably said "no."
doesnt that say it all? if true - and this is now in the public domain - all those HRC supporters that are threatening to walk - probably will.
They will harm their country out of spite?
Is there really anything "irrevocable" in politics? Were Sherrod Brown's or Tom Udall's decisions not to run for the Senate "irrevocable?" I'm very hesitant to believe that this is the last word on the subject, even in light of the allegedly "official" VP short lists we've been seeing lately.
over at the field (who mroke the Kennedy/Kerry endorsements and is a decent journalist (he has an Obama gias right now). It is true.
On the unity ticket I am somewhat mixed. I don't believe she adds much, it is that she keeps things level (if she can walk back her more outrageous remarks and convince her supporters to get on board).
I personally think that someone like Strickland (is he pro-choice) or Clark, or Kaine (is he pro-choice) would be great, but I don't have much of a say in it.
as discussed on another thread - i think this is BO's camp 'working' the press again. its not over yet, but if he wins - he wants to get a feel for the electorate and how they would react to a HRC VP. that being said, im pretty convinced that now that this is public (BO turning down HRC) whether true or not, if he does not pick her - its over.
BO, if he wins, certainly has the right to pick whomever he wants as VP, but many of her supporters are galvanized enough as it is - this will be viewed as the ultimate slap in the face.
my two cents.
Al found a source in the Clinton campaign to confirm that or else he would not have released it. I've followed TheField since Late February and he doesn't have to walk back much at all (I think the only thing he had to say he was wrong about was his PA predictions).
TheField is the origin of this knowledge/fact/rumor (pick your favorite) not the press (though people in the press and Supers do read TheField (heck the manager of RuralVotes is a Super from MA.)
Well, some people have threatened to walk if she didn't win the nomination, some have threatened to walk if she wasn't offered the VP position, some have threatened to walk if she was offered the VP position (because a "less qualified man" offered her a subordinate position), etc.
At the end of the day, people will do whatever they want. Right now, a lot of people are just looking for an excuse so that they can look themselves in the mirror two years from now and tell themselves, "I am not responsible for what has happened to this country."
Sorry Bill, Obama won and HE ALONE gets to decide who his VP is. This arrogance from Hillary and her camp is just nauseating; I use to respect this couple what the hell happened to them????
As an Obama supporter, let me say "not quite." This is politics. If HRC can convince enough superdelegates to withhold support unless she's on the ticket, than she gets onto the ticket. There's nothing inherently wrong with that; it's the way the game is played.
While I'm no fan of Hillary, I would have no real problem with her in the VP slot. (Though I would pray for Obama's continued good health.)
Yes but forcing your way onto the ticket is just plain tacky. It shows you are a sore loser and power hungry at the same time. We already have a power hungry VP in office. Obama is proud of the drama free campaign he is running at the moment, why would he disrupt that because the Clinton's ambitions?
Baloney. It's not "just plain tacky." It's US politics, and the art of the deal. You may not find it appealing, but it's hardly new or outrageous.
look at the comments on this site and anywhere else, there is a meme that the Clintons are power hungry "Cheneys", and they are filling that spot quite nicely.
I don't know if he did or didn't but he has to as it would undermine his campaign for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is that she implied he wasn't qualified and she has, on camera, said numerous things that the GOP could turn into nice ads against him which would be even more effective if she was on the ticket.
I've gone back and forth on this one, wavering between iObama-Clinton being a unity dream ticket and an invitation for disaster.
I suppose the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
My gut tells me that if you earn nearly half the votes in a drawn out contest like Clinton has, you have also earned the right to be VP.
On the other hand, I haven't seen the Obama campaign make many big mistakes. I trust their judgement. I'm certain they've run the numbers. If it is their belief that Clinton wouldn't help the ticket in November, I'll support the decision.
fully agree with you here.
yeah, you're probably right that it all comes down to numbers. but i'd still like to think that having two quarterbacks is never a good strategy.
not sure about this premature report, sounds bad for the Clinton camp no matter what.
-either they just got made out to be so desperate by asking Sen Obama out right for VP and got turned down
oR
-it really did happen.
True or not. the damage is done,
and he is a journalist first (my favorite interview he did was his interview of Ted Kennedy in his campaign against Mitt. It was over 2 pages of Kennedy's accomplishments and plans).
He will not get my vote, even with Sen. Clinton as his running mate... but he will get enough votes to put him over the top with Sen. Clinton.
Without her, he is looking at disaster!!
Sure. What Obama needs is a running mate with negatives over 50% who "misremembered" being under sniper fire.
logic like that weakens her case as if picking her can't get her supporters on board then why pick her?
He will get plenty of votes (including from my wife, I suspect) if he picks her... that is the electoral logic.
In the end, however, the case for picking her is not about getting votes... it is about showing generosity to a worthy opponent.
Why is she so intent to be vice president?
Is it the power? No, she knows that Al Gore had relatively little power in her husband's White House. Is it the privledge of being the first female vice president? I can't see her being that shallow.
No, if you ask me, with my conspiracy addled mind, I think she considers it her best path to the Oval Office. 25% of presidents in the last century have had to have their VP step in to take over for them for whatever reason... death or scandal, typically. As the first black president, and coming from the mold of inspirational leaders such the Kennedys and Martin Luther King, there's also a larger-than-average chance that some nut is going to try and kill him (a fact that Obama well knows, hence his early Secret Service protection).
There is no question that an Obama-Clinton White House would be a total circus. Their styles do not match, and their philosophies are in contradiction. The only way it would work is if Clinton were marginalized, and that would be a serious affront to her (and her husband's) ego.
It comes down to, as Obama says, not whether we can win or not, but why we should win.
As for why she'd be intent on the Vice Presidency, it's pretty obvious - it IS her best path to the White House. But there's nothing suspicious or untoward about this; she wants to be the President, she's not going to be the President this year, and lobbying for the Vice Presidency is the single best thing she can do to keep her path to the White House (albeit in 2016) open.
But only she can tell us what she'll do if Obama doesn't make the offer.
Historically speaking, the only VP in the last half century that actually got elected coming off an 8 year term is George H.W. Bush. Not counting Gore, of course.
It's not exactly the kind of hard advantage that people make it out to be.
Its not that she needs to be VP to get to the White House in 2016, or even wants to be.
Its that she has to make sure that somebody else who is young is not VP under an Obama presidency. Because that person would then become the frontrunner for the nomination in 2016.
I don't think HRC really wants the job. She just wants to be able to veto certain selections that would screw her in 2016.
after being the best AG this country has seen since RFK.
True, but consider all the opportunities in the last half-century that a Vice President had a chance to run for the Presidency:
- Gore wins popular vote, loses election.
Of the sitting Vice Presidents who had a chance to become President later (not counting Gore), only "the Hump" and Walter Mondale, politicians nowhere near Hillary's equal, had a chance to assume the president and failed. I'd still argue that becoming Vice President leaves one at a distinct, significant advantage - look at Bush I, Ford, Nixon, LBJ, and Truman.
I'll concede your point due to fine analysis.
By the way, if, as Clinton supporters argue, Clinton's just as likely as Obama to be the nominee, then why hasn't she started looking at vp candidates? Why hasn't the press written anything about who she would choose as vp?
Maybe it's because she has no chance to be the nominee.
Despite what a fraction of Clinton supporters say, most knowledgeable observers (and clearly Clinton herself) can read the writing on the wall.
Damn... I actually think I'm kind of disappointed that she would even want the job. She would accomplish so much more in the Senate -- maybe even Majority Leader at some point. I can't believe she wants that crappy VP job... She's presidential material, VP is such a waste.
Also, what sucks about this is, I wanted him to publicly offer her the job, knowing she'd turn it down. It would have been a nice gesture, which her supporters might have appreciated, but then he could have gone ahead and picked his own VP. Now he can't do that because she might accept. Damn...
the best thing would have been a big public show of an offer and a gracious decline. looks like that's not in the works if Giordano is correct.
Interestingly, the sources The Fix spoke with were roundly dismissive of the idea that she has continued on in the contest to better her chances at being vice president, Senate Majority Leader or, even, a Supreme Court Justice.
thanks for adding the link. I just wish he could have IDed some of the sources as from the campaigns because an outside voice could ahve a different view from an inside voice.
I might add some of it (I have to run to class fairly soon so I might not have time).
in florida, there are party regulars who believe (i have no idea why) that hillary will run for president in 2012 no matter who is in the white house. all i can say is that they are more connected to hillary than i am...
Why Hillary will not be VP selection? ....two words...
Bill Clinton (what would his role be..hanging around)
Here is your McCain moment of the Day
The Senate passed the G.I. Bill stuff Bush/McCain opposed..(McCain did not vote) http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hj7bL U_VVjrxBnHiIQbBEZqK4FhAD90QPP707
She KNOWS that Obama is going to win this year no matter what she says. Why would she want to be on a losing ticket? She knows that there is no way in hell that McCain is going to win unless she would have never asked. I believe that she asked and I believe that Obama told her that she would have to be vetted(including Bill) and that she was pissed so now she is just going to scorch the earth.
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