Next Up: MI & FL

While the next actual primary contest is Puerto Rico on June 1, clearly Hillary Clinton sees the May 31 DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting as her next opportunity to net a large cache of delegates and to bolster the foundation of her popular vote argument. At every opportunity during a swing through Florida today, Clinton seemed to put the pressure on the Rules Committee members.

At a campaign stop, Senator Clinton likened not seating Florida's delegates to thwarting the will of the people, a la the 2000 recount.

At an appearance on Wednesday afternoon in Palm Beach County, Mrs. Clinton sharply argued that the party should seat the Florida delegates at the convention. [...]

"The outcome of our elections should be determined by the will of the people, nothing more, nothing less," Mrs. Clinton said at a retirement community in Palm Beach County. [...]

"The lesson of 2000 here in Florida is crystal clear -- if any votes aren't counted, the will of the people isn't realized and our democracy is diminished," Mrs. Clinton said.

Clinton also told The AP that she would take the cause of seating Michigan and Florida to the convention if the DNC's Rules & Bylaws Committee rules against seating the delegations.

Asked whether she would support the states if they appeal an unfavorable rules committee decision to the convention floor, the former first lady replied:

"Yes I will. I will, because I feel very strongly about this."

"I will consult with Floridians and the voters in Michigan because it's really their voices that are being ignored and their votes that are being discounted, and I'll support whatever the elected officials and the voters in those two states want to do."

Does she really intend to take it to the convention? Probably not. Realistically, no matter what the ruling of the Rules Committee is, it's not going to change the fact that Barack Obama is virtually assured to be the nominee. But an affirmative ruling accomplishes several things. For one, it brings closure to Hillary Clinton's fight for the enfranchisement of those states -- giving her a moral victory to end on -- and takes part of the asterisk off her inclusion of MI & FL in her popular vote tally, which could be important in arguing for the VP slot if she's so inclined. As for the DNC, it would allow them to end this historic primary process with all 50 states having had a say, thus mitigating any residual bitterness that might remain among voters in those states. And finally, it would allow Barack Obama to claim an untainted nomination win, having achieved it even with the results of two of our largest states -- not to mention Clinton strongholds -- factored in.

Greg Sargent feels a satisfactory result will come out of the RBC meeting on the 31st and at this point I'm inclined to agree.



Display:


I wouldn't call MI a Clinton strong hold (2.00 / 2)

the two candidates poll fairly evenly there.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:54:22 PM EST

Re: I wouldn't call MI a Clinton strong hold (2.00 / 2)

It's called myth making


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wouldn't call MI a Clinton strong hold (2.00 / 2)

Unfortunately, with Michigan's economic distress and past voting history being what they are, both Democrats should be leading comfortably there by 10 points.  The DNC has turned Michigan into a disaster this year.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wouldn't call MI a Clinton strong hold (none / 0)

It was a disaster made by the state parties as well.  Why some people here continue to blame only the DNC is baffling.  It just shows willful ignorance.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:56:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wouldn't call MI a Clinton strong hold (none / 0)

There comes a point where you have to stop throwing tomatos at the voters and state parties in Michigan and Florida if you really want their 17 and 27 electoral votes respectively in the fall.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:14:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

walk a mile in our shoes.org great idea (none / 0)

Tell the Democratic National Committee: Don't Walk Away From Our Winning Base! Walk A Mile In Our Shoes.
Send a pair of shoes to the DNC TODAY deadline May 26th 2008
Request that the DNC donate the shoes to women's shelters & recycle packaging.
What You Can Do TODAY:

1. Mail a pair of your shoes representing your walk in life to the DNC at the address below.

2. Send Virtual Shoes, an image of a pair of shoes representing your walk in life, to the DNC. OR CLICK HERE, then Cut-n-paste full text in blue box at left, and cut-n-paste the name of your shoe from poll list at left, into the DNC email.

3. Vote in The First Ever Poll To Let You Speak With Your Shoes! on this Web site so we can tell the media how many of us want to be heard.

Where / Mailing Address:
Democratic National Committee , 430 S. Capitol St. SE , Washington, DC 20003

Talk the Walk - Help us keep count of shoes, to report to the DNC
Include a printout of this Web page inside your package.
All shoes must be sent to arrive delivered by no later than May 30th, 2008, Before the May 31st committee meeting. If you are using USPS Priority Mail for example, they should be mailed no later than May 26th.
All email virtual shoes should be sent to arrive as soon as possible and by midnight May 30th, 2008.

Email the DNC at: DNC Issues Email Page


by suzieg on Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:29:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: walk a mile in our shoes.org great idea (none / 0)

yeah, have fun with all those shoes getting searched for anthrax and being held for two weeks before they are released.

Why not do something more constructive with the 10$ shipping fee like donating it to a local food shelf?


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

not getting behind a re-vote plan (2.00 / 1)

was one of Obama's biggest mistakes during the past six months, and I fear we will pay for it in the general (in MI--he never would have had a prayer in FL).

How bad does it look for Senator Respect Empower Include not to get behind some solution that would have allowed Michigan and Florida voters to weigh in during this nominating contest? Those voters deserved a real campaign and a real election. It's not their fault that the state party leaders and/or state legislatures screwed around with the DNC rules.

By the way, my brother in Broward County was one of those Democrats who normally votes in every primary election, but didn't bother in January because he figured it wouldn't count.

I wish there had been a re-vote in both states.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:55:21 PM EST

if "wishes" and "buts" ... (2.00 / 1)

...were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

I'll bet Hillary "wishes" she had campaigned in somne of those small insignificant states that gave Obama his delegate lead.

Can't re-wish the rules. Obama played it correctly - rules work in his favor.

You gotta admit - Obama's team hasn't missed many strategy calls...OK - New Hampshire, but not many since then.


Often wrong; seldom in doubt.
by Goober Pea on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if "wishes" and "buts" ... (2.00 / 1)

New Hampshire was a fluke.. unseasonably warm weather increased turnout amongst Hillary's demographic.  I guess Hillary supporters would say that God interevened! ;-)


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if he loses MI in the general (2.00 / 3)

we are all screwed.

I find it really interesting how some Obama supporters love how he's all about empowering the people, but they also love certain undemocratic rules that work in his favor.

I wrote a bunch of diaries last year that were critical of the Iowa caucus system, not because I had any idea who would benefit from caucuses, but because I thought they were undemocratic.

If Obama stands for giving people a voice, he should not have been playing hardball on shutting out FL and MI. McCain could very well carry MI.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if he loses MI in the general (2.00 / 1)

Is he really playing hardball? My understanding is that they're offering to work out a deal to seat a portion of the delegates. Seating all of them would be somewhat undemocratic since only one candidate was on the ballot in Michigan while the other candidate said explicitly that the vote will count for nothing, which is what Floridians were told as well. Is it your opinion that all of the delegates from that sort of election ought to be given the same weight as delegates from states where the election was performed in accordance with the rules as well as in accordance with democratic norms of the sort that are understood even by Pakistanis these days, if not by all Clinton supporters?


by Barrett Brown on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would have preferred a re-vote (none / 0)

that would have allowed a real campaign and a real election in both states.

Barring that, some compromise was in order. And by compromise I don't mean seating the delegates 50-50, as Obama's camp proposed, which is the same things as not counting the votes in those states at all.

I believe Chris Bowers suggested a decent compromise:

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=5429

If I were in charge, I would seat Florida's pledged delegates as is, and seat the pledged delegates from Michigan Clinton 73-55 Obama. From that point, I would strip both states of their superdelegates. This way, the voters of the two states are not punished, but the superdelegates who are responsible putting both states in this mess are. I actually think that this should become the standard punishment for states that flout the primary calendar: keep the pledged delegates, but strip the superdelegates with no possibility of reinstatement. I also really like the idea of superdelegates whining that they should be seated at the convention. That would be an hilarious press conference.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would have preferred a re-vote (2.00 / 1)

The problem with that route is that, instead of simply splitting the delegates between the two candidates in an election in which only one was on the ballot, it gives a bunch more delegates to the only candidate who was on the ballot. So, of the two compromises, one (Obama's) nullifies the effect of the votes in Michigan, and the other gives all of the votes that Hillary got to Hillary, while the other gives Obama a bunch of votes (everyone who voted for "none of the above") that he did not receive, as many of those votes were for Edwards. This not only unfairly punishes Obama for not having his name on the ballot, but also unfairly and undemocratically assigns Obama the votes of people who did not vote for him (even if an unknown portion of those would have liked to vote for him).

This does not strike me as the sort of solution to the problem that one ought to think up and go, "Eureka!" Will all due respect to Chris Bowers, of course...


by Barrett Brown on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would have preferred a re-vote (none / 0)

Of course, they didn't vote for him, but they did vote for uncommitted. In the state convention, I believe he got the overwhelming majority of the uncommitteds (and the rest went to Edwards or stayed uncommitted, given that Edwards has endorsed him, it doesn't seem particularly undemocratic if Obama gets Edwards delegates).


by letterc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:40:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

so you opposed Hillary before you supported Hillar (none / 0)

so you opposed Hillary before you supported Hillary - I see.

because Hillary was against the vote counting in Michigan, before she was for counting the vote in michigan.

Hillary was against the primary vote, before she was for the re-vote.

Just say you don't like "Senator Respect Empower" as you refer to him.  Just say it.  


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't like Clinton or Obama (2.00 / 1)

as I have said innumerable times in comments here and at DKos. That is no secret.

I have been quite critical of Clinton and Obama at Bleeding Heartland, where I spout most of my opinions. My Obamaskepticism at Bleeding Heartland doesn't seems to bother the commenters there, who mostly support Obama. It's mainly at DKos where people immediately start calling me a Hillary shill or some other name.

Regarding Michigan and Florida, neither campaign has acted in a principled manner (and while we're at it, my candidate Edwards also acted stupidly by taking his name off the MI ballot).

My point is that we cannot afford to write off MI in the general. By not getting behind a re-vote plan in MI, Obama has made his job harder in that state, in my opinion.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what's your nickname for Hillary? (none / 0)

do you have a similar nick name for Hillary, like you do for Obama?

I've only been here for 4 weeks, do you ever post your Clinton skepticisms here?


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's your nickname for Hillary? (2.00 / 1)

desmoinesdem was a sometimes harsh but usually fair critic of Hillary Clinton. And our best source of on-the-ground information about what was happening in Iowa during the run-up to the primary, specifically Obama's remarkable organizing efforts. I thought she would go for Obama once Edwards dropped out.


by souvarine on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I argued with Clinton supporters (none / 0)

regularly here for most of 2007. Since Edwards dropped out I have focused more of my writing time on Bleeding Heartland and less at this sie.

I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to be familiar with my comment history, but I do get annoyed by the knee-jerk reactions of some Obama fans who assume I must be a "shill" for Hillary.

If she were the presumptive nominee and had done something stupid that jeopardized her chances of winning MI and FL in the general, I would not hesitate to say so.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's your nickname for Hillary? (none / 0)

desmoinesdem has a decent track record at mydd. dont lump her in with some of the other Hillary supporters on mYDD.


by Pravin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:09:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what's your nickname for Hillary? (none / 0)

Al, I think I hear your fellow Obamaites calling you back to DailyObama, better run now.


by muggle on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:03:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't like Clinton or Obama (none / 0)

Why do folks assume that we'll be "writing off" MI and FL in the general??

Every single person who voted in those states KNEW THAT THEIR VOTES WOULDN'T COUNT. Hillary is portraying them as angry and disenfranchised, but they're not. They'll vote along with the rest of us in November, and the primaries will have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on their numbers or their preferences.

People seem to be losing track of the fact that all this injustice and disenfranchisement is Hillary's own invention.


Not this time.
by jedley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Last August Hillary Wanted Florida Shut Out (2.00 / 2)

12 Clinton operatives were unanimus for UN- SEATING the Florida delegation

On Aug. 25, when the DNC's rules panel declared Florida's primary date out of order, it agreed by a near-unanimous majority to exceed the 50 percent penalty called for under party rules. Instead, the group stripped Florida of all 210 delegates to underscore its displeasure with Florida's defiance and to discourage other states from following suit. In doing so, the DNC essentially committed itself, for fairness' sake, to strip the similarly defiant Michigan of all 156 of its delegates three months later. Clinton held tremendous potential leverage over this decision, and not only because she was then widely judged the likely nominee. Of the committee's 30 members, a near-majority of 12 were Clinton supporters. All of them--most notably strategist Harold Ickes--voted for Florida's full disenfranchisement.

http://www.slate.com/id/2188985/
 


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Last August Hillary Wanted Florida Shut Out (2.00 / 1)

Do you think people like a certain frequent pro Hillary diary writing lady would even care to read these comments and reply?
It's like we are talking to a wall. We put up these comments debunking a lot of crap, and then we see a new diary pop up about Michigan.
by Pravin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:14:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Last August Hillary Wanted Florida Shut Out (none / 0)

How dare you bring facts into this. This is an Obama bashathon. Get with the program. Keep reality out of this!


by kitebro on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you mad at Edwards? (none / 0)

Mad at Edwards for endorsing "senator respect empower" ?


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

endorsements mean nothing to me (2.00 / 1)

and it's clear to me that Edwards had no strong preference between Obama and Clinton. If he had, he would have endorsed one of the two in February.

His speech endorsing Obama was fairly generic and could have been used to endorse Clinton if she were winning the nomination.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, okay - you not angry at him. Good. (none / 0)


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you mad at Edwards? (none / 0)

No.  Given that Hillary was ahead Kentucky by 28 points before Edwards came in to "help Obama appeal to working class whites," I think it's hard to find any part of Hill's 35 point landslide on which to be annoyed with Edwards.  He either hurt Obama in Kentucky or had no effect.  Funny, but I remember the same thing happening as a result of his association with some guy named Kerry a few years back.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh man, your right (none / 0)

Hillary won the endorsement by losing the endorsement.

Obamas lost the endorsement by winning the endorsement.

I hope Elizabeth see this.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:52:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh man, your right (none / 0)

Obama won the endorsement; Hillary won the state.  By 35% points.  Unprecedented for a "front runner" to be so soundly repudiated by any state in a primary process.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:40:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you realize that's Bill Kristol's talking point (2.00 / 1)

Kristol started that talking point.

I have to wonder if a Clinton supporters like taylor marsh lifted it from him, or she sent it to him, cuz Kristol, of course he didn't mention Huckabee winning Kansas 60-24 and Arkansas by 41 pts, and Romney beating McSame in Utah by 85 points, and in Colorado by 41 points.

Gawd, the grief I would receive, if I cited a debunked anti-hillary talking point, started by Bill Kristol.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:35:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Insignificant (none / 0)

I don't get "talking points" from talking heads.  A lot of the realities of this election are clear enough that we can all glean them from our own observations, mine included.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:16:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I get it - you're in actuality Bill Kristol (2.00 / 1)

BPK

I was wondering what your user ID was, Bill.

Bill, can you introduce me to Martha MacCallum?


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:40:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Insignificant (none / 0)

So it isn't taht you are parroting talking points, it is just that you demonstrate your own personal ignorance by being unaware that what you claim is unprecedented actually happened to the Republican nominee this year 4 different times.

Congratulations.


by letterc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:46:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

endorsements almost never move voters (2.00 / 3)

They drive the media narrative--that is their sole purpose.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But in Michigan (none / 0)

I hear that a re-vote would not have been able to follow DNC rules in regards to preventing Republican primary voters from voting in the Democratic primary. Mainly because the list of Republican primary voters would not be available for some reason or another.

Ultimately the big mistake was on the part of the Michigan Democrats, who couldn't settle for February 5th and tried to cut in line.


by RBH on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:24:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

February 9 (2.00 / 1)

I believe Michigan was originally scheduled for February 9.

I understand your point, but either way Obama should have advocated for a re-vote. It looks stupid for him to say all the voters in MI should be punished because party elites made a mistake.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (none / 0)

 The re-vote would have disenfranchised even more so because of the semi-open primary system in Michigan. A re-vote would have been a mess.  I agree, all Michigan had to do was wait until February 5th like everyone else and they still would have had a say.


by sweet potato pie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In theory, yes (2.00 / 2)

I would have loved a re-vote. The first election was a sham. But a re-vote is a lot harder than it seems.  The most effective and cheap way to do a revote would have been a caucus. Michigan has a history of caucuses. But Florida does not, and Hillary wouldn't allow a caucus. Then you had the issue of the Voting Rights Act, which would require Bush Administration officials to sign off on the Florida election. That would have been too late - July at the earliest. And finally there was the money question. Nobody ever resolved how the elections would be funded. There were vague offers by Hillary supporters to fund it but that just sounded too Banana Republicish to take seriously.

The only way a re-vote would have been possible is if Hillary had agreed to it back in early February. But instead she insisted for a month that the original votes should count and lost valuable planning time. By April Obama had a legitimate right worry about hastily arranged vote-in ballots.


by elrod on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

a caucus would have been a total disaster (2.00 / 1)

The system is bad enough in states like Iowa, that have a tradition of running caucuses.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: a caucus would have been a total disaster (none / 0)

A caucus in FL or MI would not have had to be an Iowa style caucus with long meetings and no secret ballots, just a re-vote run by the party instead of the state. The idea of a fire station primary in MI was floated, but shot down by several different interested parties.


by letterc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:50:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It was up tothe State Party their members said no (none / 0)

when State Party leaders asked party members for their input on a re-do.

Making Obama into the bad guy just won't fly.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:17:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not getting behind a re-vote plan (none / 0)

There's a word for this argument - "lie."  Clinton presented a "re-vote" plan whose effect would've been to ensure that the same voters who didn't get a chance to vote for Obama the first time would be the only ones who could vote.  It would've been a rigged election.

Any re-vote was DOA - Clinton opposed a caucus, and a primary would've been litigated until next year.

The fault wasn't Obama's, or Clinton's, or Santa Claus's - the fault lies with the Michigan Democratic Party, who decided to play chicken with the DNC and instead got hit by the train.  And now Howard Dean and the rest of the national party is out there picking up all of the pieces while the Obama and Clinton camps yell at each other from across the tracks.


by auronrenouille on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:09:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think this is going to the convention... (2.00 / 1)

she ain't gonna stop.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:57:07 PM EST

Is that good or bad? (none / 0)


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting. (2.00 / 1)

Historic.

Educational.

Dogfight.

Popcorn.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's an easy question (none / 0)

yes or no?


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:50:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure, why not... (none / 0)

complete the clusterfuck? The convention will then give everyone closure to the most hysterical historical primary race of our lifetimes, where we let the republican media divide and conquered us again. So...I say...YES.

To the convention baby. Let's stop for beer and popcorn on the way.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good for you. (none / 0)

truly  principle counts.

a lot of people will not acknowledge the conclusions you've posted.

careful now, somebody called me every name in the book for using the phase "overacting" (ie hysterical)    in critiquing an all caps diary.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nope, this isn't going to the convention... (none / 0)

When Obama gets to 2,025 sometime in the next 2 weeks, it's going to be over.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope, this isn't going to the convention... (none / 0)

Actually, when Obama gets to 2151 (without MI and FL) early in June (this requires only that he win 2/3rds of the remaining delegates) it will be absolutely completely over (that is the number he needs to win even if the ridiculous MI FL scenario in the side bar were to be put into effect). Once he gets to 2112 (he needs to win just less than half of the remaining delegates for this), then it is over under the most completely unfair scenario I can imagine actually happening (MI and FL seated in full, MI seated as it was decided at the state convention, Obama gets 39 of the uncommitted delegates).


by letterc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:58:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So, explain... (none / 0)

the "popular vote" argument again?

"If we just follow the DNC rules and count delegates; I lose. Can't have that. Let's count votes instead!"

If that's not it, what is?


Often wrong; seldom in doubt.
by Goober Pea on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:57:47 PM EST

Re: So, explain... (2.00 / 2)

the popular vote is totally meaningless in our current system.  

Reason 1:  Each state does it different.  Some allow independents, some allow republicans, some even let you just mail in your ballot.  Others do caucuses, others let you do same day registration, and some have early voting months in advance.  Also, some states do have the millions of dollars required to run a full blown primary.  So the idea that the popular vote is the "will of the people" is just no true.

Reason 2:  Delegates are used to force candidates to actually visit smaller states.  It is the same theory as the electoral college.  If we just used the popular vote, big states like California and New York would basically decide our nominee.  Now since we want the most well rounded and competitive candidate we space proportional delegate primaries out to see who ends up the strongest.

But if people really want to just use the popular vote we need to have a universal set of rules combined with a new funding plan that helps poorer states pay the bill.  


by Xris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (none / 0)

rhetorical question...

I agree with you, though. Maybe they'll change the rules next cycle....but not this go-round.


Often wrong; seldom in doubt.
by Goober Pea on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (2.00 / 2)

can you imagine how big of a cluster f*$# the new primary plan process would be.  I should say will be because I doubt any of us would disagree that the system has to be changed to avoid future death matches like this one.  But think about it, every state pushing to get the best deal or spot or the most money.  The arguments over whether independents count or not.  

But hey, we're democrats and love chaos:)


by Xris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (none / 0)

Spot on Xris...but check this out:

What about the plan (can't remember where I read this) that would divide the states into four regions. NE, S, MW, W. in 2012, the West would vote first - all on the same day - say 2nd Sat. in January. Then six weeks later the NE votes, then the South, then the Midwest. We would have a nominee by June. Four years later, the order rotates - so each region would have a chance to go first. This would save candidates from having to hopscotch across the country - allow some economies in buying TV with shared markets - and allow the themes important to each region to get a full airing out. The question remains of what to do about caucus vs. popular votes - but that could be worked out.


Often wrong; seldom in doubt.
by Goober Pea on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (none / 0)

It sounds good, but my only worry would be if we the front runner would just run away with it.  I personally like that we put our candidates through the ringer.  But then again the Republicans just throw them in a ring and have a winner take all death match and that seems to have worked out pretty well for them this past half century.  


by Xris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (none / 0)

Actually it would be good to reform it this time around.  When you have a fairly uncontested sitting President in 2012 it would be a good time to work the kinks out so to say.  If you are going to do it, do after this election for sure.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (none / 0)

I totally agree, if we're gonna do it we need to do it as soon as possible.


by Xris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:39:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (none / 0)

Don't forget that 3 states(or it is 4) that hold caucuses don't release vote totals(I know Iowa and Nevada are two of them), so any popular vote tally is incomplete.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:01:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So, explain... (2.00 / 1)

This is a game to the Clintons. They knew the rules of the game- Bill Clinton actually won playing those rules, i.e., he won the caucus states and gained the nomination. For some reason they did not follow that path and found themselves losing after Super Tuesday. They threw the kitchen sink, but the detritus did not stick. So then Hillary changed her persona. She abandoned the the policy wonk retoric because it could not compete with the message of Obama. Her new message of bitter, guns and pandering appealed to the lowest common denominator and it started to win her votes. Not enough votes, but she did start to win. But then the super delegates starting go to Obama. Then they changed the metric...count the popular vote. Count ALL the votes even though the DNC rules are delegate driven, but heck its a game. Now its on to the convention, coerce pledged delegates away from Obama, reinstate FL and MI and, bingo, you have a winner.

In the game it is all about winning and the Clintons want to win. They do not care if they are dividing the party. Her supports are convinced that Obama is a sexist because he dusted off his shoulders in one speech he made and that he he played the race card with Bill Clinton in NC. A house divided.

Hillary has huge debts and a fragile infrastructure in place within the states making her ability to compete in the general election problematic. It appears she would rather spend all her time, energy and expenses to try and pull off a pyric victory. Will she be equipped to compete after the convention in the general election?  

Her course of action right now is not logical, so the question is why? Why do they want to win at our expense? I have no answer, only pity.


by prajna on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 1)

I don't know... her campaign seems to have multiple personality disorder... one moment she seems to see the writing on the wall, next moment... fight until Jan. 20th...

It's very disconcerting... considering all the fuzzy math and other spin from her campaign, one never knows if she's got something up her sleeve... playing coy to get our guard down and then strike!

I still don't understand why people are still trying to take the rightly won nomination from him.... He's done something no one has ever done before... beat a Clinton!  Certes, he can beat a lame Republican!


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:58:06 PM EST

You cynic (none / 0)

I know, Bill and Hill have no campaign events for tomorrow.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cynic (none / 0)

Barack's in Boca!

Noon:
Barack Obama holds a town hall meeting with the B'nai Torah Congregation in Boca Raton, Florida


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How does she define victory? (none / 0)

Seating 100%?  90%?  80%?  60%?

Even if she won the popular vote, what end would that serve?  That's not how the nomination is determined.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:02:17 PM EST

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I doubt Obama will go for a compromise. The man has not shown the strength of character to do the right thing when there is a chance it will hurt him.

I hope the RBC can save him from himself, even counting FL and MI he is in a commanding position.


by souvarine on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:03:14 PM EST

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 1)

He hasn't done the right thing?  Man you need to come back from the dark side.  I am an Obama supporter and even I don't think Clinton has been evil.  She just really wants to win.


by Xris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

It's good that you recognize many online Obama supporters think Clinton has been evil, I'm glad you're not one of them.

I've met Obama, I've seen him in action, and I've observed him on the campaign. He is an effective knife fighter, but he gets too wrapped up in his arrogance and self-righteousness to back down when he is in the wrong, until he is forced to do so. It's a character flaw.

Everyone has character flaws, it doesn't make him evil.


by souvarine on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:26:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 1)

He isn't in the wrong. MI & FL violated the rules. They should be punished.

But if you want to compare character flaws between the candidates that would be great fun...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:32:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

LOL

What a distortion.  Who/what are you actually talking about when you use broad umbrella terms like "Michigan" and "Florida"?  You mean the voters?  The GOP legislators?  The Democratic legislators?  The governors?  The states' parties?

If you want to punish the voters, please explain why.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Why are the voters punished? Because their legislatures violated the rules of the DNC and the RNC. Don't tell me you think there's a legal right to a primary vote. You think some Constitutional right has been violated or something? There's no right to a primary at all.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

That's the most flawed logic I've seen in a while.

"We must punish the voters because of something their legislators did."

You seriously want to blame the Democratic voters in Florida for something their Republican legislature did?  

I would hate to have my vote denied because my GOP-leaning Pennsylvania legislature did something ridiculous and undemocratic--which they ALWAYS do because they are Republicans.  

And what pray tell is a more immediate concern: resolving the 2008 primary and election or having a beautiful beautiful perfect calendar in 2012?

FYI, I never said a constitutional right had been violated.  Don't impute ideas to me that I never stated, especially when the ideas you're trying to attribute to me would paint me as stupid or uninformed.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

If you're saying the Dems in the FL legislature were not complicit I have a Youtube video to show you.


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Weak.  You can't blame 1.7 million Democratic citizens for an ego trip by a handful of state legislators.  

That's like bombing an entire country simply because you disagree with their leader... er... wait...


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI &FL (none / 0)

Like I said, the only way that a punishment can be meted out is on the voters. The DNC cannot strip the state reps from their positions or fine them or anything of the sort.

The good news is A.) This was announced before the actual election, so people knew their vote wouldn't count, and B.) they still have the right to punish jackasses like this Geller fool in the regular election.

At least you've stopped using the "Republican legislature" bullshit argument. Good on you.


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:57:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

There has to be consequences for not observing the primary calendar. Yes, the voters are being punished for something their elected representatives did--THAT'S HOW IT ALWAYS WORKS.

We're all being punished right now for a flawed energy policy and the stupid Iraq war. We get pissed off and elect new representatives--that's how a representative democracy works. That's the ONLY WAY that a representative democracy can work. Look it up.


by Brannon on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:07:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I get to punish voters?  Dude that's awesome!  I am going to start with southern Missouri and work my way up to the north.

Seriously, how can we be such idiots about this?  The republicans punished (placed delegate restrictions on their vote results) the states (parties and legislators who approved the move ahead dates) and there was not a massive up roar over it (as in endless diaries and tirades over how the democratic process has been sullied and weakened).  

With all that said, some form of consequence has to be levied for the states having moved their primaries ahead, but that does not mean that have to lose all say.  


by Xris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 1)

The only way to enforce the rules entails that the voters get "punished". No way around it. The voters can take their wrath out on the very people who caused this debacle - their state representatives.

When's the state primary in Michigan & Florida?


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Quixotic and naive.  The voters aren't going to blame their legislators who believed their delegations would ultimately be seated.  They'll blame the Democratic party.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

If they do, is the DNC just supposed to play into their delusion? I'm for educating ignorant voters, not coddling them.

Again, Halloween primaries. Think about it.


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:08:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Hey! What about reading tests before you vote! Wouldn't want to coddle those ignorant voters.

What party is it you belong to again?


by souvarine on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:57:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I belong to whatever party does not change the rules in midstream.

I also belong to whatever party does not insult the intelligence of the American people.

I believe in a party to appeals to logic & reason rather than crass emotional appeal (COUNT ALL THE VOTEZZZZ!! YOU'RE NOT COUNTING THE VOTES!!! WHATEVER THE REASON IS YOU MUST COUNT THE VOTEZZZ!!!!)

It's apparent that you feel differently.


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I sure do, I did in 2000 and I did for the decades prior. I've never considered appeals the right to vote crass or emotional, no matter what the Republicans say.


by souvarine on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Either way, the DNC had an opportunity to enfranchise the states but instead urinated on all of the voters as an over-aggressive reaction to an ego-war with the state legislators.  

Florida: McCain +11%
Michigan: McCain +3%

And a generation of anti-Democratic Party sentiment and state Democratic parties in shambles for the next 4 elections.  

Oh but look on the bright side, we get a cool aesthetically pleasing calendar for 2012.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Yes, because polls 6 months out always match the November election, especially when they're taken in the midst of a heated primary contest.

The DNC could give half the delegates back. But that would not give Hillary the win so I suspect that would not sit with you, her, or the rest of your crew.

And do you want Halloween primaries? How about we have a big giant 50-state primary on the 4th of July, 2011, so Hillary can finally be anointed to the office she has been entitled to her whole life.

Wait that probably wouldn't work. MI & FL would probably move theirs up even further.


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

So he's bad because he's a fighter?

As for arrogance and self-righteousnss you'd have a hard job awarding the gold, silver and bronze to Obama, Clinton and McCain. All three are self-righteous. Find me a politician who isn't, though.


by elrod on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Huh? I think it's great that he is good at gutter politics. He'll need that skill if he wins the nomination. I'm not happy with the way he's fought in the primary, but I can't argue that it was ineffective.


by souvarine on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 2)

Yeah all that talk about Monica, Vince Foster, Bill's other affairs, their foreign money, their criminal donors, was really low but very effective.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

THANK YOU

People need to realize the many dirty tactics Obama could have used if he wanted to fight dirty. He chose not to.
Clinton, on the other hand, trumpeted every possible flaw of Obama's at one point or another. I'd love someone to name an attack she didn't use so far in this campaign.


www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com
by LandStander on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Except, of course, Obama did try to place many of those stories according to reporters:

Barack Obama's presidential campaign "scored a significant hit" against chief rival Hillary Rodham Clinton "by helping to place" a story about tainted Democratic donor Norman Hsu,

at a campaign event in Iowa, one of Obama's aides plopped down next to me and spoke even more bluntly. He wanted to know when reporters would begin to look into Bill Clinton's postpresidential sex life

I assumed heresjohnny was being snarky, or else he is really ignorant.


by souvarine on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:09:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

Except of course there are dozens of Hsus on Clinton's side so no. They could have been dirty but all they did was balance Rezko - her attack - with Hsu.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:04:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

BTW, that's a terribly unsourced story you've got there. If you have Obama talking about the things I've mention above on camera at a debate or on the record like Clinton I'd appreciate seeing it.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:05:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

So you've met him once and seen him on the campaign trail and you know better than anyone that..

He is an effective knife fighter, but he gets too wrapped up in his arrogance and self-righteousness to back down when he is in the wrong, until he is forced to do so.

Geez, what's that say for the 18 million people who voted for him, all his major endorsers and all the SD's, who have met him many more times than you have, who have given him their support?


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I suspect most of them agree with his wife, he's a human being, he's not perfect. I know and respect a number of people who work for him, they know him much better than I do but they are not blind to his faults. Neither is he, for that matter.


by souvarine on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I don't remember her or anyone else who has supported him state the quote you made about him.  Maybe you could point me to a link.

And yes, Obama has said he is not perfect and makes mistakes. At least he can admit imperfection and learn from his mistakes.  More than I can say for others.


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What??? (2.00 / 1)

He is an effective knife fighter, but he gets too wrapped up in his arrogance and self-righteousness to back down when he is in the wrong, until he is forced to do so. It's a character flaw.

If you want to go there, your comment could be said for Clinton too.  So lets not go there.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:03:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 3)

The last person to reject a compromise offered by the state officials was Clinton.  So far as I know, the only reason this wasn't resolved earlier is because she insists on full seating of the delegates.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I doubt Obama will go for a compromise. (2.00 / 1)

It's Clinton who has not and will not compromise. Once this is settled she's loses her last rallying cry and reason to keep stirring up trouble.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

"We are open to comprise [sic]. We are willing to go more than half way. We're willing to work to make sure that we can achieve a compromise. And I guess the question is: is Senator Clinton's campaign willing to do the same?"

Axelrod continues: "Well, obviously, any compromise is going to involve some give, and that means if there's something on the table, we're willing to consider it. That may include us yielding more delegates than perhaps we would have, simply on the basis of the rules."


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 508/Axelrod_tells_NPR_hes_willing_to_go_ more_than_halfway_on_Michigan_and_Florid a.html


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (none / 0)

I laughed when I heard Axelrod saying that. His offer was to split the delegates 50/50 (they called it half-way), in other words render the people's votes irrelevant. Now what do you suppose "more than half-way" means? Has he made a proposal?


by souvarine on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 2)

The voting that took place WAS irrelevant.  It quite obviously didn't represent the will of the people in those states.


by ChrisKaty on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Next Up: MI & FL (2.00 / 1)

That was the initial offer months ago... it's pretty clear that he's willing to give on that, even though it's totally unfair to count an election that most voters knew was invalid and stayed home.


It profits a PUMA