Who Has The Momentum?

I am a Clinton supporter and clearly biased as such, but I think she's got a compelling argument which she can make to the Superdelegates that she is the stronger, more electable candidate against McCain.

This race is insanely close. It isn't over just because Obama crossed a threshold of pledged delegates. That simply is not the measure of winning the nomination. It is a fact that the Superdelegates will be the deciding this race. Here's what I'd be looking at if I were a Superdelegate: Momentum, momentum, momentum.

Obama indisputably had an amazing 2 months in January and February. He was racking up victories and pledged delegates. His momentum seemed unstoppable, inevitable. But then something happened on March 4th... it slowed way down.

Starting on March 4th, the momentum has actually been with Clinton. Obama has not been the dominant force. Out of the 5 months that the Democrats have been voting in primaries and caucuses, she's slightly dominated the last 3.

Here are some facts (from realclearpolitics):

Since March 4th:

- Clinton has won: RI, OH, TX primary, PA, IN, WV and KY

- Obama has won: TX caucus, VT, WY, MS, NC, OR and Guam (by 7 votes)

- Clinton has won 454 pledged delegates to Obama's 437

- Clinton has won 490,500 more popular votes than Obama

For Obama supporters who will inevitably trash this diary and say it is an irrelevant argument, I have 2 questions which I'd like honest, objective answers to (if you're so inclined):

1) If this were simply an exercise in who has the most pledged delegates, why is the nominating process stretched out over many months in the first place? Why not simply have all the contests on a single day and then call a winner? My understanding was that the entire point of holding the nomination over a long period of time is to test a candidate's momentum, fortitude, longevity, endurance, lasting appeal? Why isn't anyone examining and debating that? Why shouldn't the Superdelegates look at that?

2) What is the purpose of having Superdelegates if they exist to simply ratify the pledged delegate count? That is not their role by any definition that I've ever seen. They are supposed to be free to vote their conscience based upon who will best represent the Democratic Party (using whatever criteria they choose). They are specifically and clearly NOT to be bound by any other measure.



Display:


Re: Who Has The Momentum? (2.00 / 2)

Momentum does not actually exist in this race.  It just so happens that Appalachia (pro-Clinton) followed the New England states favoring Obama.  Flip that series of states around and people would be arguing that Obama had the momentum following his victory in those states.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:39:59 PM EST

I disagree (2.00 / 5)

The list of states since March 4th are extremely varied, some favored one candidate, some the other. The rest were true toss-ups and up-for-grabs. I honestly think that these contests are a pretty fair measure of electability.

Also, you said New England favored Obama?

He won:
ME, VT, CT

She won:
NH, RI, MA


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree (none / 0)

I meant the Boshwash states.  I hate that term.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:49:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Momentum? The Super Delegates think B.O. does (none / 0)


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:40:48 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Simple.  Obama.  If Clinton had the Big Mo', she'd've taken OR and NC.  But she didn't.


by NewOaklandDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:44:11 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (2.00 / 4)

Both candidates have performed well in the states they were expected to win so I don't think either of them can claim momentum.  And that includes when Obama won 12 in a row.

As for the popular vote, that is a fake metric.  You can't tabulate the popular vote when states have different voting methods (caucuses, primaries, open, closed).  You just can't.  It's meaningless.

There is only one area where a candidate has had and continues to have momentum, as shown by the graph below.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:45:13 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

To answer your two questions:

1) A national primary is a bad idea because it gives a disproportionate advantage to the richest candidate at the beginning of the race.  If we had a national primary, the matchup would probably be either Romney v. Clinton or Giuliani v. Clinton.  Plus, many states would likely be against it because stretching out the process allows smaller states to exert greater influence over the process.

2) Superdelegates are of course free to vote however they see fit, but if they are to interject themselves into the process and possibly overturn the results of the delegate battle in favor of one candidate, they should have an ironclad reason for doing so, in my opinion.  The question is whether these people have the ability, or are confident in their ability, to do so.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:45:28 PM EST

If she's on a roll, (2.00 / 1)

why was she pummeled in Oregon?  That doesn't seem like momentum.  More like Joe-mentum.


by McNasty on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:46:58 PM EST

I don't think (2.00 / 1)

that it's really very smart to use the word "pummeling" when your guy -- who had all the money, all the "inevitability" he could ever want -- lost by 41% and 35% in primaries so very near the end of the process.


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama did get pummelled. (2.00 / 1)

No denying that.  But his supporters aren't running around making ridiculous claims about momentum.  See the difference?


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't think (none / 0)

Inevitability?  wasn't it Clinton that was inevitable?


by interestedbystander on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (2.00 / 2)

S.D.'s today  Obama 2 Clinton 1


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:47:52 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Clinton picked up one yesterday.


by grlpatriot on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Wow she's almost there! Now she only needs 245.
Obama, well, he only needs 63!
"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough. (2.00 / 1)

1) If this were simply an exercise in who has the most pledged delegates, why is the nominating process stretched out over many months in the first place? Why not simply have all the contests on a single day and then call a winner? My understanding was that the entire point of holding the nomination over a long period of time is to test a candidate's momentum, fortitude, longevity, endurance, lasting appeal? Why isn't anyone examining and debating that? Why shouldn't the Superdelegates look at that?

Those are good questions, and I think that Obama wins that equation by the metric that seems to apply, total delegates (pledged and super).  The fact of the matter is that Obama has been consistant, while Clinton has not been consistant.  She seems to win strongly in Appalachia but very few other places.  In the past, regional candidates have not done well (just ask Stephen Colbert).  

I would argue that Clinton does NOT have momentum just because she wins some demographically favorable states that happen to be near the end of the campaign trail.  If she truly had momentum, she'd be winning North Carolina, Oregon, and even Indiana she'd have won by more than a percent or two.

Obama has had the staying power and lasting appeal that you're saying should be important.  He has proven not to be a flash-in-the-pan by his strong showings in geographically diverse states.

2) What is the purpose of having Superdelegates if they exist to simply ratify the pledged delegate count? That is not their role by any definition that I've ever seen. They are supposed to be free to vote their conscience based upon who will best represent the Democratic Party (using whatever criteria they choose). They are specifically and clearly NOT to be bound by any other measure.

They are, in fact, free to do so.  Nobody's contesting that.  The truth of the matter is that a substantial number of them resent their given responsibility and don't think they should have their own power.  Others are elected officials or seekers of elected office themselves, and they don't think it would be a good idea for them, in their personal quest for electoral success, to ignore the will of voters from sanctioned elections.  These actually come in two varieties: those that support Obama because he's the overall leader, and those who support either candidate because their district voted for one or the other.

In the end, while the superdelegates CAN vote their conscience and nominate Clinton if they wish, they have chosen no propensity for it and it's a safe bet that they won't.  They have been moving toward Obama, not away from him, and not a single one has defected since joining his camp.  

It is a path to heartbreak if you put your faith in the supers overturning this.  I know it sucks to have your candidate lose.  Every Democrat knows about that pain.  

I wish there was something I could say to ease your hardship except, perhaps, "DOWN WITH MCCAIN!"


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:52:16 PM EST

Thanks for your thoughtful reply (2.00 / 2)

I think we also have to look at 2 huge disadvantages for Clinton going into these last contests which make the fact that she continues to draw huge support all the more remarkable:

1) Money

2) The Media

As a Democrat it does alarm me that Obama has had such huge losses recently despite the pundits all declaring this race over and a giant money advantage.

Believe me, I know all about losing. My candidates always seem to lose (or they wind up in a Prostitution scandal). Bill Clinton was my last big victory dance. If the Democrats lose this year I will be a raving lunatic. :)


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Only Reagan can win them all (none / 0)

Honestly, it's nearly impossible to appeal to all demographics in all states.  Remember that Romney beat McCain in Utah by like 80% well after McCain was the front-runner.  Huckabee still won some states after McCain was all but coronated.  They don't even have active opposition campaigning on that side, and he still can't get more than 75% of the primary votes.

The very process by which Clinton has lost the nomination this time around is the very reason that we're well-positioned to win this general election: if Obama can beat Hillary Clinton... what chance does John McCain have?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Look at the money raised, and there's not much question who has the momentum.

Clinton is like a contestant on Jeopardy! who got into the red early on, and now can't get back out, even though she gets some questions right.


by Lawyerish on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:52:57 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Money he can't for the life of him turn into votes in swing states with swing voters, who reject him massively.

Yeah, great momentum there.


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Virginia, Colorado, Iowa, Wisconsin (none / 0)

at least make some attempt to acknowledge reality.  You just look foolish otherwise.


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Virginia, Colorado, Iowa, Wisconsin (none / 0)

And, excuse me, how long ago were those ancient victories?

I'll tell you how long ago: before the era of Wright, and of Ayers, and of Bittergate.

If you want to regale us with your war stories from the distant past, tell us in advance so that we can find something else to occupy us, OK?


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about: (none / 0)

Oregon and North Carolina?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about: (2.00 / 1)

OR Obama might win in the general, but how many electoral votes is it? A measly 7. Not going to make President with that paltry contribution.

And NC is just not winnable by Obama, outside the fevered imaginations of his supporters -- in fact, rather remarkably, he ran dramatically less well there than Clinton against McCain in a recent poll (not that I think Clinton has a chance either, though the poll showed her beating McCain, where Obama lost to him).


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Enough (none / 0)

Primary results are nearly meaningless when talking about the general election.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about: (none / 0)

The recent SUSA poll from NC?  

I don't even suppose it's necessary to point out that SUSA was off on their NC primary poll.  By a lot.  


by Lawyerish on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:26:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about: (2.00 / 1)

And yet, in the primaries states that are unwinnable do and should count, regardless of who wins them.  Given the winner-take-all system of the general election, this is the only chance for democrats living in areas where they are a minority to have a say in selecting the president of their choice.  I will not denigrate the importance of that opportunity.  Doing so does not disenfranchise them technically, but it stigmatizes those votes.  I want the party to be a national party.  To be one, all its members must have an opportunity to express their preferences no matter where they live.  This is their only real opportunity to do so.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about: (none / 0)

and Indiana which Real clear politics now says she won by 1.2% well bellow the margin every single poll taken in the 10 days before including SUSA which had it at Clinton +12 two days before.  EVERY SINGLE SUSA Poll (5 total) showed her ATLEAST 9pts ahead.  
CONCLUSION: Momentum is doing better than expected not worse.  
Oh yeah and "momentum" is actually producing some of those gains she was touting in NC which we all know didnt happen.
by affratboy22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

uh huh (none / 0)

and how long ago was California?  Pre-Tuzla you say (speaking of war stories)?  My stars, it's over for Clinton in California!

And citing Ayers suggests you're not interested in a serious discussion.  That'd be like me bringing up Vince Foster.


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: uh huh (2.00 / 1)

Look, the issue isn't whether Ayers is of significance to you or me -- it's whether he contributed to a general bad impression of Obama in the minds of many voters. And, since Obama's infamous debate performance, and his inability to defend himself from the accusation, Obama has been doing very badly with exactly the sort of voters who might respond to this sort of issue.


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: uh huh (none / 0)

Yes - Republicans.


by Lawyerish on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

has there been any polling on Ayers? (none / 0)

I would need more than just speculation to accept this proposition.
by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:17:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

What a bunch of bullcrap.  Obama has won MANY 'swing states' which you seemingly have forgotten, just b/c they happen to have had their primaries a few months ago instead of a few weeks ago.

No amount of money was going to make the mouth-breathers in those areas give the nomination to him...


by Lawyerish on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:02:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

What major swing states has Obama actually won that he might win in the general?

My guess is that he might bring, at most, CO to the table.

Big wow over that one.

But how about the big four, OH, PA, MI, and FL?

Oh, I think someone else won those.


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:06:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Seriously (none / 0)

Bringing up Florida and Michigan doesn't help your cause at all.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

He's winning three of those in current polls.


by interestedbystander on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

you mean the person who didnt win the nomination?


by affratboy22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Superdelegates have been acting independently. (2.00 / 1)

Recent superdelegate nominations have been going overwhelmingly for Obama.


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:36 PM EST

Should be endorsements. (none / 0)


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no momentum (2.00 / 1)

this race has almost crystallized.  In fact, the only recent surprise was that Clinton couldn't get closer in NC and barely held IN.


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:42 PM EST

Re: There is no momentum (none / 0)

This is bizzarro world reasoning.

Look, guy, IN was Obama's territory, neighboring IL and having over a quarter of its electorate in the Chicago media market. He was perceived as the very likely winner as Dem nominee. He had vastly more money.

And the voters rejected him in favor of Hillary.

And need I bring up the massive demographic advantages Obama had in NC, with its extraordinarily large AA population.

What are you smoking?


by frankly0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no momentum (none / 0)

Yes, but Clinton was endorsed by Bayh and in the week before the election the media played Wright 24/7.  The Chicago media market has been apparently been quite hot on that issue, so it may have been a net negative for him.  IN was expected to be close and it remained close - that doesn't indicate any significant "momentum."


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no momentum (none / 0)

The buds he's burning are not as strong as the ones your smoking.


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no momentum (none / 0)

Clinton was ahead in IN by a 5-10 margin leading in, despite your attempt to generate post-hoc excuses.

Similarly, she was getting close in NC polls (sounds a bit similar to Oregon) leading up.  Remember the "game-changer"?

But, in fact, it turned out that Obama was not tanking and his support is resilient.

Thanks for citing Obama's demographic advantages in NC.  You didn't point out Clinton's huge advantages in WV or KY, but nonethless you can see my point - each candidate has a solid voter base and there is not much movement in either direction.  That's called "no momentum."


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hah, the "voters." (none / 0)

You mean the 7% of Clinton voters that said that they would vote for McCain over Clinton in the fall?

If you hash out that percentage, Obama would have won Indiana if Operation Chaos didn't exist.

Regardless, the demographics of Indiana favored Clinton, and only part of the state is in the Chicago media market that favors Obama.

By your logic, Clinton should have won Vermont and Connecticut easily.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pure crap (none / 0)

He lost IN due to Operation Chaos, nothing else.  And he didn't whine about it either.


by interestedbystander on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no momentum (none / 0)

you mean Republicans rejected him in favor of Hillary?  
Winning by 1.2% where you were behind by as much as 12 (according to SUSA) is not being rejected it was republicans trying to realize their sweetest of dreams: running aganist Hillary Clinton.
by affratboy22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (2.00 / 3)

Looks like Clinton is on the verge of collapse. The same tracking polls show Obama taking the lead nationwide with Hispanics and woman.
by hankg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:59:57 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (2.00 / 1)

Looks like Clinton is on the verge of collapse.

This has been said since New Hampshire and 5 months later the two candidates are virtually tied. Yes, in this poll Obama has opened up a lead, but others show them still very close.


by grlpatriot on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:31:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

This is the first time Obama has opened up a lead like this and pulled ahead with groups that Hillary is strong with. He previously touched 50 a couple of times but they have remained very close. Reuters has Obama opening up an even bigger lead. The super delegate trend over the last few months looks even worese for Hillary and that has been accelerating more towards Obama as well.
by hankg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Leads McSame by 8 pts !! (none / 0)

Obama Leads McSame by 8 pts !!



► Obama, who was tied with presumptive Republican nominee John McCain last month in the same survey, now leads 48 percent to 40 percent, according to the Reuters/Zogby poll released today.


► Obama also leads McCain among some groups he has been losing to Clinton: Catholics, Jews, union households, and voters making less than $35,000 a year.

► Obama builds his lead among independents -- 47 percent to 35 percent -- and also has an edge in who voters say would be better for the economy.

► And let me preempt the hand full of Clinton "all or nothing" advocates - Zogby's polls nailed the final outcomes in Pennsylvania, NC, and even Indiana.

The hand full may now proceed to say, "obama can't win, etc., etc."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/poli
ticalintelligence/2008/05/national_poll_
s.html

► Obama also leads McSame in Penn by 17 pts!!

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/vp-p a-fixed.jpg

D'oh!


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:02:18 PM EST

Um, (2.00 / 1)

You DO know that Obama had a big win in Oregon yesterday, right?

I don't think "momentum" means what you think it means.


by Slim Tyranny on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:07:40 PM EST

Yes (none / 0)

That win is included in my diary.


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and yet, (none / 0)

your thesis still centers on "momentum."

Once again, I don't think "momentum" means what you think it means.


by Slim Tyranny on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

The argument she can't make, the only one that matters, is that she has more elected delegates.

80% of the remaining SDs are not going to side with Clinton and overturn the voters. Their purpose is not to wreck the party for the benefit of the Clintons.

At this point, these fantasy arguments only serve to divide Democrats and provide fodder for the Bush/McCain spin machine.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:58 PM EST

Wrecking the Party (none / 0)

Their [Super delegates] purpose is not to wreck the party for the benefit of the Clintons.

This overly dramatic stance isn't helpful and is untrue. The Clintons are good Democrats that have done a lot for the party. The fact you fail to realize this is what is wrecking the party. Hillary has every right to continue in the race until every voter has voted and every vote has been counted. She has every right, just as Obama does, to make a case to the Supers regarding electability.  


by grlpatriot on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:41:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrecking the Party (none / 0)

Hillary lost. Her effort to overturn the result is an effort to divide the party irreparably.

She will fail. But in the meantime she will serve the interests of Bush/McCain.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:32:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank You (2.00 / 1)

I'm an Obama supporter and do disagree on the momentum issue, since you are taking an arbitrary date that benefits your candidate. Fine, I understand that, but again, it is arbitrary. It would be the equivalent of me saying that Obama has the big mo' since he's pounded Hillary in every state after Kentucky.

However, I appreciate any argument from the Clinton crowd on "electibility". In my opinion, this is her sole argument to the Superdelegates at this point.  Any tangible metric (yes, including the mythical "popular vote") favors Barack Obama.

Electibility, however, is a metric on which you can make a coherent, logical debate point.

Personally, I think either Clinton or Obama will take McCain to the woodshed in the fall. I do also feel, however, that an Obama candidacy (based partly on his clearly superior campaign staff) is going to have much stronger coattails for downticket Democrats.

Thanks again for your diary.


by otis29 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:47:48 PM EST

I don't think it is that arbitrary? (2.00 / 2)

At the time, the media was really writing off Clinton. March 4th did mark a turning point in Obama's winning streak. Comparing it to you saying he's one all the states since KY isn't really being fair to my argument?

I do understand the points you are making.

I guess I just hope that this argument does stress to Obama supporters how close this race has been in the past 3 months and that Obama really cannot claim a huge majority, mandate or landslide. The party is almost perfectly split down the middle. There is much healing to be done.

Thanks for your reply too... nice to see the civil Obama supporters out in force tonight. :)


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually..... (none / 0)

"Electibility, however, is a metric on which you can make a coherent, logical debate point."

Electibility is the one metric on which you can't make a coherent, logical debate point since it is nothing but a guess on how people will vote months from now.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:27:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

This has been an extremely close race and I don't think either candidate has momentum in terms of voters, but I think Obama has the clear momentum in terms of superdelegates because (a) he has won the majority of pledged delegates; (b) there is no reason to believe he is less electable than Hillary Clinton and so it would be foolhardy for the superdelegates to overturn the voter's choice (my personal opinion is that either one of them would win against John McCain).

I think Clinton has slightly won since March 4th  due to 2 factors: (1) There have been a lot of votes in Appalachia and this is clearly Obama's weakest region of the country; (2) The media turned against Obama in this period, with the constant playing of Reverend Wright in a loop and out of context, the so-called NAFTA scandal (my belief is it was bogus), and the ganging up on him by ABC moderators. I think Obama has recouped since then because of how masterfully he handled it, but I also think he was lucky in the timing of it. If the Reverend Wright story got blown up earlier in the campaign it might have derailed his candidacy. I was actually convinced that it would derail him anyway and was amazed by how Obama successfully navigated his way through it. Also if the timing were purely up to the Republicans it would have come as a nasty October surprise.

Now I am not denying that the media treated Clinton in a very sexist fashion. I think she definitely got the worst of media coverage for much of the campaign, and some of it has been quite disgusting. There is one respect in which media coverage was a big advantage for her though. If Obama had lost 12 straight contests I think the media would have ridiculed him mercilessly. I think Clinton got considered a viable candidate still only because her husband used to be president.

One factor in momentum clearly is in favor of Obama. The national polls of Democratic voters of him vs Clinton now show him dramatically widening his lead.

---

I think the media in this country is a major problem. It completely trivializes the race and almost totally ignores serious issues. Clinton is hardly the only one who has gotten treated outrageously. John Edwards was covered only for his $400 haircut, not for his programs to end poverty. He was also portrayed in sexist fashion ("Breck girl", "faggot"). The swiftboating of John Kerry could not have happened without major cooperation of the media. Howard Dean's candidacy was destroyed by the media manufacturing "the scream". Al Gore was continuously tormented by lies and ridicule from the media. Much of the treatment of Democratic men is very sexist as well. They are always portrayed as "girly-men", not "tough" like the Republicans. Even a war-hero like John Kerry had his war status dragged through the mud.

The media now is extremely biased against Democrats and for Republicans. I believe this is a combination of 2 factors: (1) the right-wing has infiltrated a lot of Republican propagandists into the media, even at fairly liberal outlets like the New York Times, which it used to feed fake stories  to help sell the Iraq war. The latest scandal (unreported on TV) that the Pentagon trained hundreds of military analysts to appear as pundits on TV to sell the Iraq war is the most egregious example; (2) The media is almost wholly owned now by major corporations, who depend on government favors to do mergers and for other favors, and who do not want to upset the powers-that-be, especially when those powers are as ruthless as the Bush administration. The case of how nicely CBS cooperated in drumming Dan Rathers off today (one of the few journalists to challenge the Bush administration) is a good example.

Fortunately the growth of the internet is starting to counterbalance all of that. But we still have to fight against stacked odds to win elections against Republicans.


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:54:53 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Who Has the HILLMENTUM or RODHAMTUM


by nkpolitics on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:01 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (2.00 / 2)

Hillary has had the momentum since the March 4th primaries.  She has a popular vote lead of 370,342 votes before last nights primaries in KY and OR sinc March 4th.

Since March 4th her total popular vote is approximately 6,505,747 including Ky and OR.

Obama`s total popular vote since Mar 4th is apporximately 5,989,447 vots including KY and OR.

This gives Hillary a popular lead since Mar 4th of 516,300 votes.  She is the winner of the second half of the primary for over 2 months now with the popular vote, and therefor has the big mo going into Denver.  If she does well in PR as expected, this lead in the popular vote will grow even further.  She is the fighter to win the GE as she has proved by coming on strong in the last 2 plus months!

Source: I used this site to obtain the popular votes since Mar 4th.  I can break these down if proof is requested.

http://politics.nytimes.com/election-gui de/2008/primaries/democraticprimaries/in dex.html


by mcctx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:56 PM EST

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

That's not really what peopel are arguing.  The idea of political momentum is that candidates start winning contests that they wouldn't be expected to win based on a bunch of new people suddenly jumping onto the bandwagon.  If you look at the demographics, both Obama and Clinton have won the states which favored them with very few deviations.  It just so happens that we're going through a glut of states where the demographics favor Clinton.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry but (2.00 / 2)

I think you've got your head in the sand a bit here.

My bottom line is that we kick the GOP out of the White House.

Frankly it freaks me out when Obama supporters cannot honestly discuss their candidate's very real challenges and simply make one excuse after another.

This isn't an argument about what the technical definition of "momentum" is. It is an argument about electability. Obama didn't just lose the states he was expected to lose in a "glut of states that favor Clinton". Let's at least be honest about this.

I think I would actually feel a whole lot better if just ONE Obama supporter wold utter the words, "You're right, we've got our work cut out for us, this is going to be a long and hard fight for Obama. If he can win, it will be a squeaker!" Instead, I hear a whole lot of overly optimistic declarations.

For once I'd like an Obama supporter to be the one who starts a diary which says, "Holy crap, our guy bombed! What went wrong?" or "I'm really freaked out by the look of those electoral map projections on the top of the MyDD page!"

Maybe I've been burned by to many failed elections. I don't mean to unload this all on you either. I'm talking much more broadly here.


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't predict the future (none / 0)

I think we have a good chance of it not being a squeaker, but it certainly could be.

You gotta understand, though, that, as far as I, and many Obama supporters are concerned, Obama is down by ten points and will be until the day he takes office.

If you take nothing for granted, you just have faith that you can fight for it.

So yeah, we've got our work cut out for us.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who Has The Momentum? (none / 0)

Looking at those February Primaries which Hillary Clinton lost.
Virginia,Maryland,Washington State,Wisconsin and Lousiana had the most delegates.

Hillary could have improved her standing in Rural Southwest Virginia- Win very big in VA-1CD,VA-2CD,VA-4CD,VA-5CD,VA-6CD,VA-7C D,and VA-9. These Congressional Districts are overwhelmingly White and Rural. She would have picked up a net gain of 14 Delegates in VA.

Hillary could have improved her standing in Western Maryland and Eastern Shore Maryland and Southerm MD. MD-1,MD-5,and MD-6. plus in the Baltimore Suburbs- MD-2,and MD-3. Hillary would have picked up 10 Delegates in MD.

Hillary could have improved her standing in Eastern Washington. WA-2,WA-3,WA-4,WA-5,WA-6,and WA-8CD. Hillary would have picked up 12 Delegates in Washington State.

Hillary could have improved her standing in WI-1CD, WI-5CD,WI-6CD,and WI-8CD. Hillary would have picked up 8 Delegates in Wisconsin.

Hillary could have improved her standing in Northern Lousiana. LA-1CD,LA-4CD,LA-5CD. Hillary would have picked up 6 Delegates in Louisiana.

Hillary would have picked up 50 Delegates had she competed in those states.

Hillary would then be 100 delegates behind


by nkpolitics on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:08:42 PM EST

she Has The Momentum! (2.00 / 1)

it is obvious to all except Obama supporters and insane supers


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:22:27 PM EST


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