What are the Alegre wars all about?

The comments section of Alegre's diaries have become a central phenomenon of this blog. Her posts, devoted supporters, and equally committed detractors seem to produce effects that reach beyond these heated and largely unproductive discussions, begging questions of what they accomplish and offering the opportunity to ask what we are trying to achieve on this blog in general.

The point of the diaries seems quite clear. They aim to galvanize HRC supporters and raise funds for her continued pursuit of the nomination, so much so that her detractors frequently accuse the author of being a paid Clinton operative, though they fail to produce a single shred of evidence to support this assertion. I rarely find these posts or their responses instructive and don't expect them to be. They certainly do not seem intended to persuade Obama supporters at this point. They are defensive and defiant. Nor do the author and her admirers exhibit any interest in understanding the positions of their adversaries. The comments sections devolve almost immediately into a repeated pattern of producing mutual outrage through name calling and arguments over ratings. Many respondents emphasize the diarist's refusal to engage the substance of their critiques, while she and her supporters draw upon the frequent lack of basic civility to amplify the outrage. My question is what is this all for?

Alegre's detractors must recognize that she is not interested in debating the relative merits of the candidates at this point or of the potential impact of the race on the party and its agenda. Her one and only priority resides in advocacy for Clinton's candidacy. Or rather, she is so utterly committed to her candidate that she sees all of these questions through the lens of that candidacy. Her supporters admire her for this devotion and unflinching advocacy. Her detractors refuse to respect her right to hold this position. Ultimately, whether intentional or not, the mutual outrage serves her central purpose. Nothing galvanizes a constituency like the perception of being wronged and under siege.

Neither side is about to convince the other. Generally both sides repeat the same arguments over and over. If this site's owners have no objection to her posting these entries for these unmistakable purposes, she has the right to do so. On the other hand, those who disagree with her have the right to present opposing viewpoints with regard to particular claims. Even if there is no hope of persuasion, voicing disagreement can be an end in itself. I strenuously object to the way the narrative of this race is portrayed in these posts, the way they paint Obama supporters with the same brush, and the deeply unfair and inaccurate ways in which I think they depict the candidate I support. At the same time, no sooner does a diary go up than Alegre's opponents pounce, voicing disagreement and frustration often through the most unproductive and uncivil modes of denigration and personal insult.

There must be a better way. First of all, I am confused as to why the redundancy of these exchanges fails to bore participants. I understand the imperative that leads my fellow Obama supporters to confront what many of us feel are distortions. But how do the taunts help? Clearly some participants are invested in the outrage game for its own sake. But if we can change the tone in the comments sections of these diaries, I believe it will benefit us all going forward. I call on Alegre's attackers not to cease responding, but to find a new mode of response. I call on both sides to refrain from throwing past slights in each other's faces when an attempt at reestablishing civility is put forth. It also will serve nothing but the perpetuation of destructive and injured feelings if any attempt to respond differently meets with a dismissal of sincerity. I emphasize to Obama supporters here that whether this is intentional or not, that perpetuation serves the purposes of your opponents. If commenters on both sides cannot break free of the cycle of negativity, perhaps stepping back and placing arguments in other diaries for a week will facilitate a cooling off period. I refuse to accept that this is beyond the point of no return. It may be so for particular individuals. It should not be for the community and the party.


Display:


Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (1.33 / 12)

She's insufferable, illogical, and there is definitely a coordinated effort to have her diaries and those of other "hillarybloggers" to dominate the site.

That said, I think it's just better to ignore her.    


by mikeinsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:55:15 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 2)

Phantom mojo to you, Mike. I rarely read the recommended diaries - they are, generally, as described in this diary. I am beyond caring about the primaries - they're over. Incidentally, all my preferred candidates lost - you don't hear me crying about it. It's time to move on to real issues - Iraq, banking crisis, unemployment, health care, environment... That's what I care about, not the pathetic whining of the hillaryis44 / noquarter crowd.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

Oooh.  Y'all are really flinging those ones out.  Sorry about having an opinion that isn't yours.


by mikeinsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre (1.14 / 7)


   is nothing more than a Clinton hero-worshipper who writes cut and paste diaries of whatever came out of Clinton's mouth that day.

  People are fascinated by the way she responds to criticism (she throws a tantrum or just won't answer) and by the way she ignores facts, and, at times, outright LIES about Obama to try and make her point.

  She's a passionate person and I'd love for her to join us to fight Senator McCain. But she's having one hell of a time accepting reality. And her lies and obvious hero-worship just highlight the sadness.


by southernman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:55:54 PM EST

Re: Alegre (none / 0)

Any idea how enlisting her passion might become more possible?


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

give her time... (2.00 / 1)

she's honestly a decent person, just very invested right now.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:32:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: give her time... (none / 0)

I'll believe it when I see it.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre (2.00 / 1)


   I have no idea. I've tried complimenting her (sincerely for her passion is admirable) I just got insulted right back in my face.

  I asked why she said Obama was anti-choice, she refused to answer.

  I'm sorry for the troll ratings my comment got, but it's the truth. I don't know how to get her to help us.


by southernman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here we go again n/t (none / 0)


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:57:07 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 10)

On top of seeing 2-4 alegre diaries on the rec list every day, we now have 2-4 diaries discussing alegre every day.  

While I agree with you sentiment, especially this...

I call on both sides to refrain from throwing past slights in each other's faces when an attempt at reestablishing civility is put forth.
...could we please stop talking about alegre and start talking about McCain?


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:57:17 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

Phantom mojo to you


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:18:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

Sure.  That'd be great.  I'd rather be discussing strategy for beating McCain; or what we want to see from a democratic administration with regard to ethics, policy, and personnel; or how we can begin to heal the rifts between us on this site and throughout the party.  I've posted several diaries on related subjects in past days.  Never got more than 15 responses.  Check them out.  Now, that doesn't actually bother me.  I don't post for the sake of attention.  I have avenues for getting attention: from family, friends, colleagues, and students.  But the point is that I post something about the Alegre wars (not about her, about her diaries, responses, and the effect on the blog and what it might indicate for our party) and 50 people respond within the hour.  Like it or not, something is going on here, and it's not wholly positive.  If this diary helps address that, I will be happy.  And I will continue to post diaries that elicit more limited but still interesting and enjoyable quality responses.  One good exchange can be more worthwhile than a host of empty ones.  Hence my curiosity about the comments sections of Alegre's diaries.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:26:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 1)

I agree with you whole-heartedly.  I spend a lot of my time reccing diaries that deserve it, not because of who wrote them.

This wasn't so much a comment to you as it was a comment to everyone (as is the following).

Alegre's going to do what alegre's going to do.  I think it is utterly pointless to post anything in her diaries consisting of anything but praise.  What happens in the comments of her diaries isn't making anyone see the light, and it sure as heck isn't affecting alegre in the slightest.  I got my first Hide Rating in one of her diaries, not for trolling or flaming anyone, but for disagreeing with her. There are very few people who rush to her diaries who are interested in dialogue, so if you feel like you need to make a point and want to have some dialogue, do yourself and everyone else a favor and write a diary.

How about we all drop this stuff and move on to things that really matter, like reccing anti-McCain diaries.

(And before you go ahead and TR me, this is not an attack on alegre, it's a plea for some common sense on the part of people who comment in her diaries.)


John McCain smells like mothballs.
by asherrem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:07:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Didn't you read the rules? (none / 0)

Hey, we're not supposed to blog about specific people on this site. Remember?

Now you're going to be banned from MyDD for life!


by wolff109 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:59:15 PM EST

Re: Didn't you read the rules? (2.00 / 2)

I'm not blogging about any people in particular, but about a whole series of exchanges organized around a particular diarist.  I think this is different.  But I think addressing it worth risking the ban.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 3)

Well, this is not an attack on alegre at all, but something I've wondered silently for a while. Simply an observation:

All of her donation links have a very specific code in the URL of the links. Something link ECN5 or something, I think. Now, if she's doing this to claim credit for bringing MyDD supporters, that's fine. I think a disclaimer would be appropriate. Saying, basically, 'I'm raising money on behalf of the Clinton campaign'.

There's nothing wrong with this, but it's something I've noticed. Again, not meant as an attack, but as an observation.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:59:18 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 4)

It's her Hillraisers link and she explains that fairly often. You can get one yourself if you're interested.


by LakersFan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 1)

I guess 'fairly often' depends on what you mean. But thanks for the explanation. After a couple of months on here, I haven't heard her explain it, but I'm glad you have.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:12:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

im not certain... (2.00 / 1)

but i think she has discussed this in the past.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: im not certain... (2.00 / 1)

Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation. I've only been on here a few months, so I never heard this before.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps its the failure to address the substantive criticisms of those diaries that results in the mud-slinging that occurs downthread.  If you notice, many of the early posts are in fact fair criticisms of the accusations in the diaries themselves, but those criticisms are studiously avoided by various cheerleaders.  When a person doesn't respond to substance and insists on perpetuating what you believe to be misinformation, what is left but the types of comments you see downthread?


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:59:54 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 2)

But what does the mudslinging achieve?  It certainly does not elicit the desired substantive responses.  And if the diarist is not interested in responding, why expect her to?  Isn't there a way to offer the opposing view point so that it seems less motivated by personal disdain?


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

Maybe so.  All I'm trying to do is explain the phenomenon.  I think it's a common reaction to the attitude displayed in these diaries.  Moreover, the diarist in question has a bigger soapbox than most and so those diaries are naturally going to elicit more responses.  The fact is that misinformation passed off by certain individuals here carries far more weight within this particular community than substantive information (and even rebuttals) passed off by lesser-known individuals.  And so, if people get their (mis)information from a particular diary, then it is in the responses to that diary where disagreement may have the most effect.  


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's also the rec-list gaming (2.00 / 2)

people become frustrated when diaries that are little more than lightly-edited press releases consistently and immediately get on the wreck list while those with actual substantive content are ignored.


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bingo. (none / 0)

Nailed it.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are (2.00 / 4)

I like Alegre. She's got spunk.


by WolfmanJack on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:00:19 PM EST

Re: What are (none / 0)

I hate spunk.


by cfloyd on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are (none / 0)

Then you don't know what it originally refers to.  I recommend you look it up.  Might change your view a bit.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are (none / 0)

That used to be a famous TV quote.  I'm not even that old!


by cfloyd on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

my two cents... (2.00 / 5)

alegre has gained status as a 'celebrity' blogger through, imo the quality of writing and the strike a dkos.  i believe that she was followed here by a bunch of thugs who comment and do not add anything substantive to the substance or content in the diaries she writes.

she has said that she would vote for whatever democrat wins, yet certain users here harass, call out and mock her (i might add - in violation of the sites rules).  but little do some of them realize, that in doing so,  they are working to galvanize and harden the lack of unity in the democratic party.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:07:04 PM EST

Re: my two cents... (2.00 / 2)

Agreed. But I see alot of "thugs" representing Hillary on her diaries as well. It goes both ways. I have no problems with alegre or her diaries. My problem is with out of controll trolls who use alegre's diary to spout lies and hate and get no heat because they are pro-Hillary.


We want to see Ivana [Trump] because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture. - Sarah Palin
by spacemanspiff on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: my two cents... (2.00 / 2)

agreed!


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: my two cents... (2.00 / 1)

or... the out of control "trolls" that use alegre's diaries to to spout lies and hate about Hillary Clinton, Clinton supporters, alegre, or someone who is simply defending alegre or Clinton.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

interesting (2.00 / 1)

thoughts, but could you please break up that one big paragraph? It would make it easier to read.

Sorry for being off subject.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:14:07 PM EST

Re: interesting (2.00 / 1)

Not at all.  Some malfunction kept erasing the paragraph breaks.  I input a little code and think it's fixed now.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Paragraphs! n/t (2.00 / 1)


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:15:22 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (1.33 / 3)

The same as all other tactics from Camp Obama, any effort to personallly attack, demonize and name call someone showing to be a strong opponent.

Sad.


by thebluenote on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:17:30 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

and comments like this are what start the wars.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is the exact same phenomenon that (2.00 / 6)

originated at DKos and has now replicated itself here. Alegre's diaries are, for the most part, what you say:

The point of the diaries seems quite clear. They aim to galvanize HRC supporters and raise funds for her continued pursuit of the nomination

That seems to infuriate a number of Obama supporters who descend upon her diaries on que and start demanding links, proofs, substantive engagement, etc., etc., and spamming links to Obama's website in retaliation. All in an attempt to disrupt and throw the diary into kaos. It is extremely frustrating, but avoiding her diaries is, in essence, giving in and giving up. I, for one, won't do that. The problem is, her diaries are mostly morale boosters for her followers, not really meant as a forum for intricate policy discussion and debate. It is as simple as that. I know, for I am one of those followers. Obama has his own over at Kos. I haven't been there in awhile, but "icebergslim" comes to mind. There really is no solution other than to let the primary season conclude and wind down. As you say, it has become a phenomenon unto itself. Alegre, and the majority of her followers, including myself, have all pledged at one time or another to support Obama should Hillary fail to win the nomination. This situation mirrors our primary contest and will naturally resolve itself.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:19:57 PM EST

thank you... (2.00 / 3)

and I'll try to stop yelling. But I will continue to read and report inaccuracies. perhaps in my own diary.


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules (none / 0)

Sorry Strummerson, if I am hijacking this thread a little, but this is tangentially related.  (And by the way, I agree with you regarding all the opposing-camps-stuff, despite the fact that I'm a HRC supporter and the ruckus may, as you say, actually be quite productive in meeting the diarist's goal.)  

Now, can someone tell me where to find the rules, please?  Or maybe you just answer this:

I just posted my first diary yesterday and, continuing to read/ponder about my "political identity crisis," I came across some comments by a gentleman on another site (who  was responding to an article).  He made some points that were, to me, important and he said it so well, that it would be pointless for me to rewrite it.  I certainly hear the disdain regarding "cut and paste" diaries, but I would really love to hear what people have to say in response to his words.  I've noticed that putting a link in is not always as productive a means to get something read.  Advice?


by ahw on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:20:00 PM EST

Cut and pasting (none / 0)

is one thing when you're just putting a candidate press release or a news article into a diary.  It's another thing entirely when someone has responded to what you specifically wrote.  You should just update your diary or write a new one about this individual's response.


by JJE on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

but ask his permission first! (none / 0)

(if possible)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Have truer words been written ever? (2.00 / 3)

This thought has occurred to me too:

"First of all, I am confused as to why the redundancy of these exchanges fails to bore participants."


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:23:35 PM EST

Re: Have truer words been written ever? (none / 0)

Because outrage is everlasting.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have truer words been written ever? (none / 0)

i hate to sound nihilistic, but that could go for maybe 80% of the diaries on the rec list.  i don't really understand how most of them get there or what is the point of yelling at several hundred people in the comments.


by the mollusk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another good point (2.00 / 2)

"If this site's owners have no objection to her posting these entries for these unmistakable purposes, she has the right to do so."

I have long thought that in the middle of this race, when the outcome was still in doubt, that the snarky tone that Jerome took towards anything Obama set an unfortunate, top-down degradation of the political dialogue on this site. I diaried about it a couple of times, but obviously to no effect. It seems that these days the site owners/administrators are trying to come to grips with the eventuality of Obama's nomination, but for too long there was a subtle (or not too subtle depending on how hard you looked) encouragement from management here of posts that really shredded Obama in unnecessarily harsh and divisive ways. It was one of the big shames of this site's history and I hope it is a thing of the past.


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:28:39 PM EST

Re: Another good point (1.50 / 2)

The way you feel about Jerome is the way I feel about Markos at Dkos.

He set the rabid bash/hate the Clinton's tone and then the feeding frenzy began.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Completely fair (none / 0)

but we are not at Dkos... and persumably we are here instead of there for a reason.

The fact that Markos behaved irresponsibly (he did,) in no way mitigates the fact that Jerome has as well.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Completely fair (none / 0)

Completely agree JDF. Markos has made his own mess over at DKos, but I post here because I like to mix it up with people who have a range of opinion. Jerome took the campaign too personally, despite his many statements that Hillary was not his first choice et al, and allowed his emotions to get the better of him, to the sites detriment.


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:16:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 1)

What gets buried under all the silliness in the allegre diaries is that this is not really about a fight between Obama and Clinton - it is a fight between entrenched, old school forces who feel a sense of entitlement because they think they did a wonderful job leading the party in the nineties by forming the DLC, and a new guard who feel the old guard, and the DLC in particular, failed to build the party by focusing on ever narrower constituencies. I think the results of the '06 elections, in which DLC candidate Harold Ford of Tennessee went down to defeat, while 'netroots' or 'grassroots' candidates like Tester in Montana Webb in Virginia won, strengthens the argument that it is time to move away from the DLC towards a new model.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:31:51 PM EST

Ford won Webb and Tester their seats. (none / 0)

moneysinks are fun!!

not that we're welcome in Memphis anymore...


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ford won Webb and Tester their seats. (none / 0)

How? Ford ran a classic DLC strategy of trying to run to the right of a Republican opponent, and lost. Tester and Webb clearly stated their differences with their opponents, gave voters a clear choice, and won as a result.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It turns out that people dont like RACISTS (none / 0)

... and that RACIST Republican party got play all over the place.

Fords campaign reinforced that meme, even if he said he didn't see no racism (liar, btw, else why did he hide his current fiancee, who is white)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is (2.00 / 1)

bullshit.

You tag all Hillary Clinton supporters and all Obama supporters with different but still broad brushes?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your easily offended (none / 0)

There is a power struggle at the base of this primary battle. It is not solely about the candidates themselves. I believe the struggle would exist if there were different candidates left on the ballot. If we were at this point with Biden vs. Edwards, for instance, or Clinton vs. Kucinich. Sorry my belief that there are some deeper under currents in all this offends you so.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your easily offended (none / 0)

Oops... You're. I hate it when I do that.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your easily offended (none / 0)

No.. I am not easily offended. I just dislike this old against new BS.

Obama and Clinton are both to corporate for my taste and that, to me, is "old".  Edwards was speaking truth to power and calling out the corporate powers and saying exactly what he would do.. that to me is "new".

I am the same age as Obama but I support Clinton. I love the energy and passion the Obama campaign has brought but I like the substance and passion of Hillary Clinton and John Edwards better.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:03:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your easily offended (none / 0)

I agree whole heartedly with your second paragraph. However, I still perceive that the 'old guard', for lack of a better term, has mostly coalesced behind Clinton, while the 'new guard', for lack of a better  term, has mostly coalesced behind Obama. There was a diary yesterday called "Kicked to the Curb", in which someone claiming to be a long time party activist and long time DLC booster felt they were being forced out of the party by newer forces. Jerome and Markos wrote a book about this power struggle... it exists, it is happening, and that is all I am saying. I believe it would be happening if this were a tight race between different candidates.


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your easily offended (none / 0)

But... what would you call Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Edwards, Chris Dodd, etc.?

What would you call all of the young people that also support Hillary Clinton?

I think these old and new brushes are being broadly used.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:28:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

I think this is a great comment. And I think it is accurate. In addition, I think expanding the base, reaching out, new ways of organizing are essential. The one fly in the ointment is Obama. I find his comments on All the money coming to him and through him--no more funding progressive dem sites, causes, separately--to be ominous. We have a part of what we wanted with Obama. The rest to me is scarey. He is the real Bush 3.


by linfar on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 1)

I like Alegre. I came here with Alegre. I now don't bother to read the comments because they are all attacks.


by ellend818 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:33:43 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 2)

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Silence.

Or as my mama likes to say.

"Takes at least two folks to fight."

She' right.

Ya'll are one hot mess. You yell about Alegre's diaries and yet you jump on in there and fight her even when the diary doesn't say one bad thing about Sen. Obama. LOL You know what's gonna happen.

I watched in horror as a simple post on Alegre's diary about a Mother's Day fundraiser for Sen. Clinton turned into a World Wrestling Smack down.  A diary that didn't say a durn thing about Sen. Obama. Nothing. It was about introducing our kids early to the political process and meeting their "female political heroes".

I kept asking folks. "Why are you doing this?"

Turns out it was about something other than the fundraiser in question. Yet folks were using this entry to settle a score for a completely different issue. Very Off Topic.

What are ya'll thinking? Don't you know better than going into someone's diary and starting a fight? It is bad manners.

Same to the Sen. Clinton folks.

Otherwise you look like folks who can't say what ya think in the real world and are coming into the anonomous internet to vent and pick on folks.

Unless that's what you want? :O

Then well heck. I here there are folks who love to watch Wrasslin' LOL. I mean we already have nicknames. LOL


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:44:47 PM EST

Alegre Should Be Banned (1.00 / 2)

Consistent with Jerome's front page article yesterday, here posts are anathema to the attempt to bring harmony and comity to this site.

In response to that article by Jerome, she posted a diary complaining "So What Are We Allowed to Post?" or something like that. In that diary she made reference to party leaders "taking us over the cliff when the bridge is out" in referring to the attempt to unite the party behind Obama. This is why people respond to her with outrage--what kind of crap is that? She makes these comments no matter what the evidence to the contrary--that Obama is well ahead in Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Iowa, and Colorado, that he leads nationally by 7-8 points in polls that usually lean republican (not Zogby but Quinnipiac and ABC/WAPO), that he has pulled even in Ohio, that he is outraising McCain by the length of the universe.

Then after posting her hatefulness and vitrol she is recommended by so many others that she makes the rec list without fail. Now that is a dead giveaway that there is a coordinated effort to keep her diaries visible. This can only indicate the same level of vitrol on the part of many others on this site.

The best thing would be to force her off, and prevent others from perpetuating her hatefulness and scorn.
 


by Davidsfr on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:47:31 PM EST

Re: Alegre Should Be Banned (2.00 / 1)

"Oh yeah let's all drive her off with pitchforks raised. "

"Run everyone that disagrees with us off the internet."

"Hey yeah let's shun her. Let's taunt her. Let's... "

"If you disagree with our invasion of Iraq you are guilty of treason."

No wait.

Is that really image you want the Democratic Party to embody?

Really?

LOL. Sorry dude but that's stupid.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

First of all, I am confused as to why the redundancy of these exchanges fails to bore participants.
I think it's possible that there is a seed of doubt in the minds of many Obama supporters. That's why they don't get bored with diarist's posts.
by zenful6219 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:07 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (2.00 / 1)

"Participants" includes both sides here.  Does your theory of a "seed of doubt" apply to Clinton supporters as well?

I actually do not think doubt is a bad thing.  It's the antidote to fanaticism.  I am wary of supporters on both sides who do not doubt their candidates at all.  In fact, I think an inability to express doubt or disappointment displays a weakness of commitment, for it seems to indicate that such commitment cannot withstand the possibility of a particular disappointment.  I hope I am not wrong about Obama.  I agree with him on many things and like much about him.  There are also areas of divergence and disagreement between us.  The only people I have absolute and unconditional faith in are my wife and children and a few very close friends whom I have known personally and intimately for years.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

I do think it applies to both sides.
by zenful6219 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre is the towel stain that won't wash out..... (1.00 / 1)

One can just throw out the towel and buy a new one, or conclude there already are plenty of other towels in the linen closet.  But instead one obsesses about the stain non-stop, trying unflinchingly to figure out new ways to get rid of it.  And I'm as guilty as anyone of being CAPABLE of such obsession.  Fortunately for me, boredom always overwhelms me, and I quickly let it go.

But Alegre does, indeed, make me think less of her.  Even if come late June, after Hillary has dropped out, she comes on here posting diaries praising Obama and bashing McCain, I can't help but feel her diaries will continue to be vapid and not worth the time to read except in repulsion-fascination mode.


by DCCyclone on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:55:34 PM EST

Re: LOL And her dog stinks too. Sheesh. (2.00 / 1)

Good for you for having an opinion.

Now. Go write a diary entry. Make it about something you truly believe. When folks come in and bash the heck out of it? Or say just what you did only about your blog?

What do you think is the "correct" response?


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Answers to your questions...... (none / 0)

I do occasional diaries on DailyKos and almost never here, simply for lack of time.  And I get kudos and flames and whatnot, depending on what I write.  And I don't worry about the flames except to try to learn something from them, if I think the flamer has a point.

You have to have a thick skin to do this stuff.  People disagree and say so.

But ultimately Alegre's diaries and comments really just parrot Hillary's talking points without any original thought, and further she openly allies with some people (TexasDarlin comes to mind) who openly peddle the very same viral e-mail LIES that right-wingers spread--in other words, libelous hate speech in the truest definition, not hyperbole.  So I have a lot of disrespect for her.


by DCCyclone on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre is the towel stain that won't wash out. (none / 0)

How does comparing someone to a soiled object help anyone with anything here?


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay likely to get flamed but... (none / 0)

I think two things fuel the fascination:

1. Alegre was a very well known, accomplished, erudite author over on Dkos.  Her work was well-written, witty, engaging, and thought provoking.  Her current work is usually cute/paste jobs with little research, back-up, wordsmithing or that empathetic feel that engage the reader like she used to.  In short, the quality of her work has taken a precipitous nosedive and I for one, am disappointed.  I have always liked Alegre.  I still like Alegre, but I no longer like her diaries and that isn't because they are Hillary diaries...I am only slightly more for Obama than Hillary.

2. There seems to be some other, non-MyDD group of people that are actually pre-warned or notified of an Alegre diary because she hits the wreck at about 10x the speed of any other diary.  This phenomena seems to fascinate and repel many regulars.

Just my .02


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:35:02 PM EST

All things Hillary (none / 0)

Seem to be acceptable targets to some people.


by grlpatriot on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:01:53 PM EST

Re: All things Hillary (none / 0)

You think that's all there is to it?


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

Uh - isn't this diary against the rules? thought you couldn't attack another diarist?


by nikkid on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:40 PM EST

Re: What are the Alegre wars all about? (none / 0)

Please explain where and how I attack a diarist.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:25:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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