ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!!

If there is one thing I will carry away from this year's state primaries  to select a candidate for the general election, it is that the ideal of a democracy--one person, one secret vote---does not hold sway within the  Democratic Party.

. The caucus system has been gamed, and in many cases it cannot be deemed a fair representation of the will of a majority of the democratic party's voters in the state;

. the apportioning of delegates has been weighted  so that losers can carry away as many delegates as winners, and in some cases carry away more;

. the leadership of the national committee can behave in arbitrary and capricious ways with no apparent checks and balances;

. there is no means by which the will of the people who support the party can influence decisions;

. high level financial backers have a determining influence;

. functionaries will adjust decisions  so that some states are disproportionately punished compared to others when rules are "violated."

. And finally, like the cherry on top of the cake, a high level Democratic Party official who has great sway over the nomination process regularly appears on television as a Pundit.

Who could dream this up?

It is as if the Democratic Party never heard of a conflict of interest. Does not in fact care about democracy. And will be damned if it will be seen as caring about the will of the majority of its party members. One might also term this as a return of  Father [Dean] Knows Best, but I didn't believe the original so why should I take this remake at face value.

So how can we be surprised  when one of the candidates for the Party's Nomination ignores the results of two state primaries-- the last one in West Virginia where he was swamped by 40 points losing every single county in the state, and then last night in Kentucky where he was trounced by 35 points--to give a speech  in  Iowa ??? Yes, you read that right, Iowa.

The capitol is Des Moines,and since 1972 it has gone Republican 5 times, the last time being for George Bush in 2004. But hey, what's history.  So it is there in Republican Iowa that the Democratic nominee  proclaims himself the apparent victor of tfhe Democratic nominating process  by announcing he has a majority of delegates needed to nominate.

Only in our Brave New World can Losing be Winning.

George W. Bush set the playbook for how to game the electoral process and we now have a Democratic candidate running the same campaign with the active collusion of the Democratic Party leadership against the will of at least half the Democratic Party rank and file.

Reality check. 2029 delegates are needed to win the nomination.  [This excludes Michigan and Florida because the DNC is mad at them and so is pretending they are not there on the map, 2 million plus voters don't count and their delegates are like Casper's ghost or maybe invisible ink--which only becomes apparent  to those who know how to look.] By the way, anyone who may be reading this and who is from outside the country, I am not making this up. Everything I am saying can be documented. Please look elsewhere if you want help with instituting your own democratic process.

So now we are down to the wire; and  at this point, with only two weeks and three states left in the primary process, with 2026 delegates needed to win the nomination Obama has won 1653 pledged delegates. Clinton has won 1499 pledged delegates. That is a difference of 154 pledged delegates. DING DING DING    Super Delegate do not count  at this time. They only come into play unless  the magic number of delegates has not been reached.  And although many have declared their choice at this time,  they do not represent the will of the people, and are therefore not truly applicable to the pledged delegate state-by -state nominating process.

Conclusion. Help me out here. We have a deadlocked nomination.  Neither candidate has won a majority of the pledged delegates. It is that simple. Spin it anyway you want. Go to Iowa. Run a victory  banner up the flagpole.  Scream yourself hoarse, it doesn't effect the bottom line. Hillary Clinton is right. This fight is not over. We have a nomination that for all intents and purposes is virtually tied up. And now here is the kicker. Al Sharpton et al threatened riots in Denver if their guy is denied the nomination by Super Delegates. Yoohoo. Guys. Anything you can do, we can do better. So fasten your seat belt. This Thing is Still Up For Grabs.



Display:


Great (2.00 / 17)

Make all the changes for the 2016 election.
In the meantime don't change the rules in the middle of the game
by parahammer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:28:39 PM EST

In the meanwhile... (2.00 / 14)

how dare he claim to have gotten the majority of pledged delegates when he has the majority of the pledged delegates!

It's downright disgusting!


by Rorgg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:35:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: In the meanwhile... (2.00 / 1)

...and he does it in...IOWA??!?!?!?!?  

L'Audace!

Really this diary is quite silly.  The election is over.  Michigan and Florida do not count, because the electorate in each state was told beforehand that they would not count.  Only one (major) candidate's name was on the ballot in MI for the love of God.  (oh, I forgot, Obama 'surrogates' 'campaigned' to for his supporters to vote 'uncommitted' so it was fair!)

It's quite depressing that many Clinton fans still believe those results should stand even though both elections do not pass even the most basic test of fairness used by international election watchdogs.

And about those caucuses.  Sigh.  Caucuses have been used for a long time in this country, and nobody in Clinton's camp seemed to give much thought about the "unfairness" of them until they started losing.  


by cato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (none / 0)

The rule I care about is winning.  The White House.

Your comment reminds me of Bush in 2000 - "you can't change the rules now!"


by Montague on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Except that like Hillary... (2.00 / 5)

... it was Bush (and his Supreme Court partisans) who changed the rules, by stopping the Florida law-mandated recount.

Just so, Hillary and her suicide-pact cabal insist that the nominee-selection rules be changed because she can't win under the existing agreed-upon rules.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:27:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Except that like Hillary... (none / 0)

And if you believe your own words, there's a bridge in Brooklyn....


by Montague on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (none / 0)

There is absolutely no question we will the White House if, and it's a big if, HRC and BO supporters agree to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (none / 0)

If we don't it will be act of selfishness instead of selflessness...and we will deserve four more years of Bush.


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:41:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (2.00 / 1)

Make all the changes for the 2016 election.
In the meantime don't change the rules in the middle of the game

You mean "make all the changes in 2012" when everybody has realized what they could have done in 2008, right?

I just don't understand, in the states (except Texas) where both primary and caucus were helpd, why should the delegates be divided according to the result of caucus?


by observer11 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (none / 0)

But why wasn't this a problem back when Bill, Gore, or Kerry ran.  I mean these candidates went through the process (Bill 2x).  If there was a problem why isn't it being mentioned until now?


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (2.00 / 1)

I think, in those elections you named, the results of caucus and primary for the same state largely agreed with each other, unlike the drastic differences we have observed here.


by observer11 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (none / 0)

That well could be explained by disingenuous voters in the primary.. in which case it would seem to be a good thing they had both.


by notedgeways on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:22:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually. . . (2.00 / 1)

Actually the Washington primary is a beauty contest for democrats and primarily used for the election of some republican delegates.  Washington DID NOT have a primary in 2004.  They did have them in 1992, 1996, and 2000.

And to refute your point, in 1992 Paul Tsongas won the Washington state CAUCUS with 32% vs Uncommitted 20%, Brown and Clinton dead last.  The beauty contest that followed in May of that year had Clinton win with 51%.  So yeah, it's been much worse in the past.


by shalca on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great (2.00 / 2)

In 1992 Bill won 75% of the delegates in the primary but won over 91% of the delegates in the caucus for a difference of 16%.

In 2008 Clinton won 52% of the delegates in the primary and 43% of them in the caucus for a difference of 9%.

What Clinton fails to mention is that in 1992, when he first ran for the White House, Texas and its hybrid system were very good to him. He captured 66 percent of the primary vote over his leading rival that year, former Sen. Paul Tsongas of Massachusetts, and won 94 of the pledged delegates at stake in the primary while Tsongas took 31 -- a 3-to-1 margin that Sen. Clinton can only dream about today.

And in the caucuses, which allocated another 69 pledged delegates, Clinton ended up walking away with 63. His campaign outperformed Tsongas in large part because he was supported by many of the "party leaders" -- such as the chairman of the Texas Democratic Party at the time, Bob Slagle, and two of Slagle's predecessors, Calvin Guest and Billy Goldberg -- whom Clinton seems to chastise today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23339362/


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:37:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is Texas (none / 0)

n/t


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ummm... (1.95 / 20)

No, the process everyone agreed resulted in him winning.

Is it really appropriate to try to deligitimize the likely Democratic nominee on a progressive blog?  Can't you keep this on NoQuarter?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:28:43 PM EST

Re: Ummm... (2.00 / 4)

NoQuarter... now there's a website that makes a little vomit come up in my mouth.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ummm... (2.00 / 2)

A little?


by Kysen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He didn't declare himself King (2.00 / 25)


   he declared himself the winner of the majority of pledged delegates, which is perfectly fair, b/c it's true.

  He's not ignoring anything.

  But the nomination is not virtually tied up. Obama has won more delegates, more states, more VOTES (i love how y'all ignore 4 states, and count 2 that don't count), he's raised more money, is not in debt, and now CAN'T be beaten in the race for pledged delegates.

  This is NOT a virtually tied contest.

  Your anger at Obama stating that he won the most pledged delegates is pathetic. It's a TRUE STATEMENT. You're mad at him for telling the truth? My goodness!!


by southernman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:30:44 PM EST

You'll notice that the diarist (none / 0)

never complained about how our primary system works BEFORE his candidate started to lose them.

I love how all of the Clinton supporters have all of a sudden gotten religion on the whole "one person, one vote" concept, and how all of them now claim that Barack is the "establishment" candidate. LOL


by Deano963 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He didn't declare himself King (1.50 / 2)

Try to look at it as an intellectuals.  You can't count winning in most States as a win because the electoral college is appropriated accordingly.

Example: you cannot compare the weight of winning California to Iowa or even Chicago... 55 electoral votes compare to what? Gve me a break.

Hillary has won the popular votes so far among the those who voted in the Demo Primary.  

Pledge delegates from the Caucus don't even count.  Caucus discriminates against senior older people, disabled people, even people who work in health Care because they can't take the time off to caucus.... it's really simple to understand if you got a brain.


by SHIBAM8P on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He didn't declare himself King (none / 0)

To use your logic...  This process has discriminated against young people too. Everybody below 18 can't vote. Why is that fair? Anybody with a brain should see that it isn't.

Oh yeah... It's the rules. Stupid rules.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Caucus Demographics (none / 0)

I've met several older people who caucused for Obama, so I don't completely buy that part of the argument.  Heck, my 70+ year old parents are more active then many 20+ year olds I know, and being retired they actually have the time to caucus.

Furthermore, Clinton had just as much opportunity to build an activist base that would caucus for her... she instead chose to listen to the (horrible) advice of Mark Penn and leave many of them unchallanged. Sure, Obama is more popular with a younger demographic that seemed more inclined to get out and caucus... but that begs the question, why couldn't Clinton attract those people?  She knew the nature of Caucuses before this all started (her husband made it through the same process).  She could have built the grass roots infrastructure that would get her supporters to the caucus.  She did not.  It was a strategic blunder that likely cost her the nomination.

Really, I find it a bit insulting to Clinton and her supporters, this claim that Caucuses were somehow out of reach for her.  Clinton is a better candidate then that.  I think they could have competed in those states if not for the strategic blundering of Mark Penn.

Peace


by protothad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Most people THINK the system works that way (2.00 / 1)

If Hillary does win the popular vote, and the Dem party still crowns Obama as its nominee, I challenge you Obama folk to get up there and tell the people that- after 2000, and 2004, that their votes dont matter.

I am not saying that it can't or wont be done, but I think it would be extremely stupid to ignore the Electoral College breakdown (which I think very strongly WILL favor Hillary - she will continue to look like the stronger candidate in June - If they ignore THAT AND the popular vote, and then Obama loses, we are FUCKED.

Everybody is going to be saying that the party leadership is so EVIL that the best thing is to just start over, fresh.. start another party, anything.

I think that black people will be just as pissed as white people will be if we end up with four years of McCain.

They understand the importance of winning.

Nobody will care that the Dems ran a black candidate IF HE DOESN'T WIN.

And if Obama gets the nomination, and then goes down because of some scandal it will hurt the causes of black civil rights and equality more than anything the GOP could do.

There are lots of black mayors around the country. Look at what happens when one of them gets arrested for corruption in a city. At that point, its a bad situation for progressives.

Worse than if they had never ran.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most people THINK the system works that way (none / 0)

I'm sorry, but it is simply beyond all sanity or reason to apply a metric to determine the outcome of the race when the players were not aware that they were being measured on that metric.

You just can't do it.  You wanna change it for the future?  I'm down.  But how dare you get so sanctimonious and demand that we take it away from the candidate who played better within the rules?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:15:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More States - BFD (none / 0)

I always hear this more states shit. Yeah caucuses in big square red states. But only 2 out of the 10 biggest. And he trails McCain in N.C. while Hillary leads there now.

Yes Obama has gamed the system. He is a weaker candidate than Hillary. Certainly weaker in Florida and Ohio. Lose those and you walk a tightrope to the White House.

Sorry I'm not supposed to cast doubt on the anointed.


by hypopg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 1)

With 20% of the delegates being superdelegates, under that logic every nomination fight could go to the convention if someone really felt like it was close.  A 60/40 delegate split could still be overturned.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:31:13 PM EST

Linfar (none / 0)

We missed you!

I thought you quit the Democratic party?


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:31:21 PM EST

Re: Linfar (1.76 / 13)

Well, she's hanging with the racists and conspiracy theorists at "HillaryIs44".

I stopped reading when someone there referred to black people as "gorilla faces."  You think I'd have reached my limit when someone else claimed that Obama's campaign is a black nationalist plot to take over the country and legalize drugs 'cause that's what the "AAs" really want.

Yes, folks, these are linfar's peeps.


by The Red Pen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Linfar (1.81 / 11)

Oh we all know that,  when we caught her and posted it here, how she goes on hillis44 and tells people to come here and spam she said she would leave the site.

While pimping her last diary here, a member of hillis44 called her out for spamming there site.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Linfar (none / 0)

Lol. Now that is funny.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:14:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I TR'd because you're tarring Linfar with comments (2.00 / 2)

by other people, in an unfair attempt to discredit Linfar.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Should say in an unfair attempt to discredit (2.00 / 1)

Linfar instead of addressing the merits of the diary.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Should say in an unfair attempt to discredit (none / 0)

So if we find the agenda of the organizations that run Hillis44 and NoQuarter to be vile and disgusting and unforgivable we can't associate members with the agenda of the sites?

What if she posted on Townhall.com, and we said "Linfar is X and X because she participates with Townhall"  would that be the same.

Please reconsider the TR you gave to him.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its part of a concerted and intentional effort by (2.00 / 2)

various Obama supporters to attack the messenger, because they find it difficult or impossible to attack the message.

It is annoying, its against the site rules, and its been allowed to go on by the admins for far too long.  

Every time Alegre or another well-known Clinton supporter writes a diary, no matter what the subject, certain Obama supporters get on the Bat Phone, and make sure that other Obama supporters personally insult the diarist and attempt to discredit him/her, in order to discredit their message by implication.

I'm always disgusted when I see that cheap shit.  I was disgusted this time, too, and I have taken appropriate action in response.

You'll note that I did not go around TR'ing comments of people I disagree with.  Only those that personally insult the diarist or attempt to discredit him/her, without addressing the merits of the diary.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its part of a concerted and intentional effort (2.00 / 5)

After many months "Obama supporters" have realized who is interested in a discussion and who is only interested in propagating a smear.  

There's really no point trying to discuss a smear on the merits when the diarist has no intention of discussing or retracting.  

The diarists you mentioned have discredited themselves.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its part of a concerted and intentional effort (2.00 / 1)

Yeah... like trying to convince the honest denizens of NoQuarter that Obama doesn't really promote the terrorist killings of Americans. Next to impossible.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shall I link to pro-Clinton diaries that don't (2.00 / 1)

attack Obama or his followers in any way, shape or form, but still contain dozens of abusive personal comments towards the diarist from the Obama diarist-discrediting patrol?  Because there are diaries on the Rec List every day, including today, that will prove my point about this abusive trend.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shall I link to pro-Clinton diaries that don't (none / 0)

Yes, please.  

I've never seen a diary on the rec list that didn't contain at least one shot at Obama or his supporters.

Prove me wrong.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:09:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Done. (2.00 / 1)

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/21/1724 12/586

That was easy.  I thought I'd have to search back to... well... a whole few hours ago.  But I guess not.  This one is on top of the Rec List as we speak.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:31:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Done. (none / 0)

Well, I see a couple anti-Obama lines, many logical falacies, and a couple distortions of reality in that diary.  What I don't see are "dozens of abusive personal comments towards the diarist".

You'll need to do better.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"You'll need to do better" (none / 0)

No, I don't.

Seriously, I don't.

Now its my turn to tell you what to do.

You'll need to go to the ATM machine, take out $300 (or whatever your daily max is) and mail it to me.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have even offered proof in the first place.  People see what they want to see, as evidenced by what you saw in that diary as compared to what I saw.


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:23:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shall I link to pro-Clinton diaries that don't (none / 0)

Oh, I should also add that a diary that spreads provably false information to bolster Clinton would be considered an attack on Obama.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:18:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its part of a concerted and intentional effort (2.00 / 1)

Well said PJ.


by mztower on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:46:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I TR'd because... (2.00 / 3)

I disagree.  

We need to try to keep MyDD free from the influence of hate sites that devote themselves full time to smearing the Democratic nominee.  Part of that effort includes pointing out people with deep ties to those hate sites.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I TR'd because you're tarring Linfar with comm (2.00 / 8)

Then I guess I should also stop tarring McCain with Charlie Black?

I do get your point about ad hominems, but linfar is making a concerted effort to bring HillaryIs44 ideas to MyDD and give them credibility.  I think that needs a little of the cleaning power of daylight, but that's my opinion.  You are, of course, welcome to disagree.


by The Red Pen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I TR'd because you're tarring Linfar with comm (2.00 / 7)

I TR'd because you're tarring Linfar with comments by other people, in an unfair attempt to discredit Linfar.

That's got to be a joke, right? I think the last thing I want to hear from a Clinton supporter is about "tarring" someone "with comments by other people." Yeah, your silence was deafening when Clinton was making hay over Rev. Wright.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, the diary shows just how ignorant linfar is. (2.00 / 3)

Iowa's gone Democratic in 4 of the last 5 presidential elections; just barely went Republican in 2004.


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 6)

"Anything you can do, we can do better."

Excellent. Linfar will combat the coming race riot by singing showtunes in the streets.


by Mobar on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:31:25 PM EST

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 8)

~You damn under 50 obamabot,  if you make fun of showtunes you are disenfranchising core voters in the GE!

Don't you brush your shoulders off at me young man!


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:33:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (none / 0)

Hahaha.

Sorry, this comment is completely unproductive.


by NYMinute on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 2)

It is, because the notion that women over a certain age don't understand Progressive politics is so offensive.  I get sick of it, I met so many of these said women out our Obama rally who told me the same thing: "I was for Hillary but I think Obama is for shaping the government the way Democrats have been screaming for years".
Now I live in MD, and like Oregon, our women are not as important.

But really, my comment is fueled by the clown Ferraro.
For her to put another dog and pony show where she deliberately tries to lead by example how older women should think is ridiculous.

I don't think Ferraro lost her mind or is Senile,  I think she is 100% a political activist, and is trying some hardcore tactics to split our party.

She must have thought she had a VP spot.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ooooooooooooklahoma... (2.00 / 1)

where the wind comes sweeping down the plain...

..will probably go Republican in the fall.


by The Red Pen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When the dog bites! (2.00 / 1)

When the bee stings!
When I'm feeling saaaad
I simply remember my favorite things
And then I don't feel so bad.

Maybe that's what Team Clinton needs... hot cocoa, frocks made from the drapes, and a little sing along.


by Mobar on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When the dog bites! (none / 0)

If there'd been frocks made from drapes, I may have supported Clinton. (Who could say No to that?)


by Rationalisto on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Cut the race riot shit (2.00 / 1)

There will be no race riots.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cut the race riot shit (2.00 / 2)

I'd rather see a Riot Race, it'd be like a combination of "World's strongest man" and Demolition Derby.  That'd be awesome.


by the mollusk on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cut the race riot shit (none / 0)

I don't think there will be race riots. I think such a reading of Sharpton's comments is absurd.


by Mobar on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:51:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that not a sexist and racist remark? (1.75 / 4)

Linfar quotes Al Sharpton indicating AA's will riot, Linfar responds that women can riot too, and you label a women's riot as consisting of singing show tunes?


My name is Barney Gumble, and I'm an alcoholic. Lisa: This is a girl scouts meeting. Barney: Is it, or is it you girls can't admit that you have a problem?
by PJ Jefferson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why, no...it isn't. (2.00 / 2)

I believe Sharpton spoke of "trouble" in Denver and linfar and others interpreted that as "indicating" riots. Here's one of those "others":

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/apr 25/rush-dreaming-denver-riots

I'm sure you've read the relevant diaries. If you haven't caught the racial aspect, I'm not going to explain it to you.

The reference to showtunes was made by linfar herself by quoting Annie Get Your Gun. I find linfar's deployment of bathos and cliche quite effortless, so it's possible she didn't realize she was doing it. But there it was. So I made a joke. It would be sexist of me to call you just another humorless feminist, but it's not my way to hold your individual... sensitivity... against all feminists.


by Mobar on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 6)

Hillary will win the popular vote at the end of this and just try Super Delegates to take this nomination away from her.  Just Try!  There will be protests in the streets of Denver and in that convention Hall.  And if Al Gore endorses Obama it will make him the biggest hypocrite of all time.  Endorsing the person who lost the popular vote!


by karajan72 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:32:31 PM EST

Haven't you been paying attention? (2.00 / 2)

The metric for winning the Democratic nomination is "pledged delegates"...Repeat after me... "pledged delegates."

As for your popular vote B.S. That is going nowhere.  Florid and Michigan can have 50 percent of their delegates, but that popular vote in illegitimate elections that HRC agreed to NOT participate in ain't getting in.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (1.81 / 11)

The court cases involving Gore in 2000 had nothing to do with the overall popular vote.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (none / 0)

I have no idea why this comment was hide-rated by map, other than flagrant ratings abuse, or a simple mistake.


UNITY!
by The Great Gatsby on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The "Popular Vote" (none / 0)

Most. Bogus. Statistic. Ever.

It's not even true.  After everything is said and done, Obama will win this metric, too.


by The Red Pen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (none / 0)

In January 2001, Gore supported George Bush's ascension to the presidency. As he should have. The law is quite clear.


by vinc on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The nomination was never hers. (2.00 / 2)

The sense of entitlement she's had regarding this nomination is probably one of the main reasons she didn't win.  She knows its over, she's not stupid.  Support her by helping to pay off her debts and by helping her pick up the pieces of a damaged political career, but the rallying cry you're screaming over hear isn't helping her any.  


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (2.00 / 6)

for Dems since FDR. There are reasons for that, and all I can think so far is here we go again.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:32:46 PM EST

Re: Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (none / 0)

Yea and because of Term limits Bill Clinton cannot run again.

So what is your point?


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My comment (2.00 / 1)

has nothing to do with term limits.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My comment (2.00 / 1)

So, forgive me for guessing,  are you trying to insinuate that HRC with all her talents and strength would run a Proxy administration for our former president Bill Clinton?

Wow, do you know what you are saying?
You might as well move to Zimbabwe.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My comment (2.00 / 2)

One wonders if the people who make this argument are conscious of what they're saying.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Umm, I didn't insinuate that at all (2.00 / 3)

Look, I can tell you're in the mood to pick a fight with someone. I'm not interested. Now scoot.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Umm, I didn't insinuate that at all (2.00 / 1)

I don't want to fight, I want you to EXPLAIN to me your statement.

You insinuate that Bill Clinton has something to do with the 44th presidency of the United States.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I repeat, I insinuated nothing (none / 0)

What you imagine you see, I can't explain.


by phoenixdreamz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (none / 0)

Which has what, exactly, to do with anything in 2008?


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (2.00 / 1)

You and your comments are so pathetic..on top of that you don't even have your own identity...what an imagination you have!


by GendraX on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:19:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (none / 0)

So ONLY a Clinton or a Roosevelt are fit to run this country?  Wow. and I thought we lived in the USA where you could become anything you wanted dispite your gender, race, religion or NAME!!


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (none / 0)

Good point. Ross Perot = Lightning in a bottle.


by Rationalisto on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton is the only 2 time winner (2.00 / 1)

Yes, there is a reason for that: Lee Harvey Oswald.


by Ray Radlein on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SHOO!!! (2.00 / 3)

To the corner with you.  Go suck your thumb.

Hillary Clinton would have done the same damned thing.

This makes me recall a statement...what was it...OH YES!!!

If you can't stand the heat...


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:33:42 PM EST

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 15)

Uhh, no, Obama has won a majority of the pledged delegates.

I'll avoid going in detail to debunk your various claims about the process, since I don't have the time, except to note two things:

1) Neither you, nor Senator Clinton, nor her campaign, had any issue with the process before it started to work against them, and

2) Senator Clinton spent the last two years "anointing" herself "queen", as the "inevitable" candidate, running as if she were an incumbent.

Senator Obama is making an honest claim here- he's got more pledged delegates, and will continue to have more, and has over 50% of the total number allotted in the contest including Florida and Michigan.

I know you're upset, I can imagine how I'd feel, roles reversed. You need to grieve, and that's fine. We'll be here waiting for you, though, because we want your help and insight in how to make Senator Obama's campaign better. We can't do it without you, and even if we could, I wouldn't want to.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:34:15 PM EST

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 2)

Since when does the "majority" of pledged delegates mean anything at all?  Is there some magical new DNC rule that has just appeared by magic?  It is just spin.


by mbolack on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (2.00 / 1)

It means that Clinton needs to win a heck of a lot more superdelegates than Obama does.


by vinc on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:14:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ANOINTING HIMSELF KING!!!! (none / 0)

2) Senator Clinton spent the last two years "anointing" herself "queen", as the "inevitable" candidate, running as if she were an incumbent.

That's really the only response this diary needs. Let's call it a day--you nailed it.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:09:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another lulzy post with lots of screaming (2.00 / 3)

and comedic gold.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:34:59 PM EST

It used to be funny. (2.00 / 1)

Now, actually, it's a little sad.  :/


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (2.00 / 6)

Hillary just finished a fantastic speech in Florida on democracy and the importance of hearing all the voters.  I don't know if you can pick it up somewhere, but she made a very strong case for Florida and Michigan -- including using the rules argument.  Most importantly, the voters were informed, they followed all the debates, they cast their votes in record-breaking numbers.  The voters broke no rules. On a personal note, my mother is a life-long Dem and a Florida voter, and she is not half a person. One person; one vote.  All the votes must count.


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:36:33 PM EST

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (2.00 / 3)

The metric for winning the Democratic nomination is "pledged delegates"...Repeat after me... "pledged delegates."

As for your popular vote B.S. That is going nowhere.  Florid and Michigan can have 50 percent of their delegates, but that popular vote in illegitimate elections that HRC agreed to NOT participate in ain't getting in.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:39:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: repeat after me: (2.00 / 2)

"It's the voters!!!"

"One person; one vote"


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"It's the voters" (2.00 / 1)

I would buy this if Clinton had been saying it from day one, but she didn't.

Instead, she clearly thought she had the whole thing sewn up on Super Tuesday (possibly because Mark Penn didn't understand how the Democratic Primary system works).  Had she swept Super Tuesday, we wouldn't be hearing anything about these other states.

I suspect that at some level, you have a conscience that while bound and gagged, does know this.


by The Red Pen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: repeat after me: (2.00 / 1)

Illegitimate election!!! And THEY KNEW IT.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: repeat after me: (2.00 / 2)

Nope -- go look at the DNC rules. Iowa gets a caucus, California gets an open primary, Pennsylvania gets a closed primary: it's all encouraged by the party rules.  Delegates are the agreed on way of weighting the states and other jurisdicitions: OR gets 52, KY gets 51, etc.  

Any argument about popular vote or any other metric is balderdash, akin to adjudging the winner of a football game by the number of first downs or time of possession.

There is s a line where spin and attempted gaming of the rules becomes an active delegitimization of the nomination process.  Sen. Clinton and her team have crossed that line. Superdelegates are very plugged in, and are aware of this slimy and destructive tactic.  Obama has translated their disgust into a net gain of about 45 SDs in the last three weeks, and is quite close to having a majority of delegates.


by Twin Planets on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: rules (2.00 / 1)

IA, NH and SC all broke the same rule (11A) as FL and MI.  Where's their punishment?

btw, the State of NH put out a public statement that NH was fine with Florida's new primary date because it still followed all the earlier states.  The DNC said they were protecting NH, and the state itself had no problem with FL's date!


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: rules (2.00 / 1)

IA, NH, and SC all asked for - and received - waivers from the DNC to move their primary dates. They didn't break any rules.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:16:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Moe doesn't want facts (2.00 / 1)

Moe,

Stop acting like Fox News and actually try to address the other sides arguments.

Heck, try to formulate some independent thought as to why Hillary would agree to stripping Florida and Michigan back when she was the frontrunner.


by Regenman on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:46:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: rules (2.00 / 2)

Seems like you're not addressing my point about delegates.  But if you want to engage on FL/MI: the DNC, with substantial support from Sen. Clinton's insiders, made the decision.  All candidates agreed.  The only dissent has occurred after Super Tuesday from one candidate -- the very same candidate who would benefit the most from inclusion of FL & MI.  

How in the world can you pretend as if this isn't an issue driven by partisanship, rather than principle?  Isn't Sen. Clinton the same candidate who wanted to move a Las Vegas caucus site because it offered too convenient access to workers of a union that opposed her?  

Sen Clinton's invocation of FL/MI's "disenfranchisement" is a slimy, self-serving tactic that is likely to be destructive to the greater Democratic party.  Superdelegates apparently agree with me, as they are demonstrating with their recent endorsements.  The nomination, for all practical purposes, has been decided.


by Twin Planets on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, !!! (2.00 / 2)

If someone, by his own chice, takes his name off the ballot, let him live with the consequences.  It was his choice.  (Dodd, Kucinich and Clinton all left their names on the ballot.)


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, !!! (2.00 / 9)

When Hillary tells the people of Michigan and Florida that their votes aren't going to count for anything, and then changes her mind months later in a desperate attempt to steal the election, she's attempting to disenfranchise millions of voters.


by KevinT on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 2)

She was simply saying what the DNC was doing by disregarding the voters.  That doesn't mean she agreed.  When she left her name on the Michigan ballot, she said she did so because she herself did not want to disrespect the voters of Michigan.


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 2)

Nah, that's not why she did it.  

She left it on to gain the publicity from winning what she knew would be a beauty contest, because the campaign believed that the bump in public perception early would be worth more than binding votes later.  It was a bet on her part that she could wrap things up on Feb. 5.

Obama took his off to pander to Iowans, betting that the nomination process would stretch out longer.

Point is, both made their bets fully aware that the elections in MI and FL would not be binding.  The legislatures in those states made their own bet, that the prestige and importance of their states would be increased by an earlier, non-binding election than a later, binding one.

Unfortunately for Clinton and the voters in MI and FL, the legislatures' bets were wrong.  Obama survived Feb. 5 and eventually built a commanding lead.   Clinton is trying to undo her bet now that it has backfired.  It won't work.

MI and FL voters who feel disenfranchised have one remedy: vote out the assholes who screwed up your chance to have a direct voice in this primary.  That is how representative democracy works.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

She said "...everyone knows these votes won't count..."

-emohasis mine

By everyone I would think that meant her, as the speaker, as well.


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (2.00 / 2)

I'm sure that the speech conveniently left out everyone who stayed home.

If you have any disagreements with this study, indicating that 2 million voters in MI and FL did so, then please state them.

http://www.dcourage.com/Nini%20-%20Probl em%20with%20Existing%20FL%20and%20MI%20P rimaries.pdf


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (2.00 / 3)

i don't think that the number of folks who "stayed home" come anywhere near to the number of folks who couldn't get to a caucus in the caucus states....no where near....so if you're desperate that the former voters be heard, how about the latter?


by jentwisl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for your backup.  Iowa had the greatest turnout of caucus states at 16%!  After all the attention Iowa gets, a 16% turnout.  Florida's turnout far exceeded Iowa at 42%.


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (2.00 / 1)

Your comment really doesn't make any sense, other than as a convenient out to avoid the implications of the study.  No one was told ahead of time in the caucus states that their votes would not count.  If that happened, those states too would have much lower turnout.  In any event, you should be happy for the caucus system - after all, Obama would have won most of them by far more votes than he actually received, and that's the only reason that we can keep playing these nonsensical math games.

It's always a bad idea to argue vague generalities when presented with hard data.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (none / 0)

Can you please write a diary, in as inoffensive of a tone as possible, that includes that link and what it means?  I would really appreciate it.
-Ryan
John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (none / 0)

From one Ryan to another, I'll see what I can do.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not so fast, King O!!! (2.00 / 4)

Of course you're completely wrong, but don't let the facts get in the way.

Michigan and Florida were two of the only primaries in which more Republicans voted than Democrats, neither state was record breaking.

In Michigan, only 600,000 people voted.  Compare that to the 1.3 million in Indiana, a red state with half as many people as Michigan.  I wonder why all those people stayed home in FL and MI?  Hmmm.

Nice try though.


by KevinT on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: comparisons (2.00 / 5)

How about Iowa?  With all the media attention and non-stop on-the-ground camapaigning, the turnout was just 16%!  (broke its record at a pathetic 16%!)  Florida's turnout rate (accd. to St. Pete Times and other papers) was 42%.  No voter apathy by a long shot.

My mother broke no rules, period.


by moevaughn on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: comparisons (none / 0)

Florida had a tax initiative on the ballot that drove voter turnout.


by The Red Pen on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: comparisons (2.00 / 1)

And no one is arguing that she did.  Please don't resort to strawmen, even if it's tempting.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]