What Do You Want?

This has been asked a few times lately, but it's hard to answer given that I'm still supporting Hillary for the Democratic nominee.  I do see that the mountain is steep, so I am not ignoring the question, but rather, giving it serious thought. Before I can answer it, I need to more fully understand why I feel so strongly.

Truth is, I'm not ready to get on board with Obama if Hillary does not get the nomination.  I, too, am having a political identity crisis, wondering whether the Democratic Party is the right place for me anymore.  I have not declared that I'm voting for McCain, but I'd be lying to say I haven't seriously thought about it.  Trying to find a way down off that cliff, I am looking at all my options.  Right about now I'm wishing for a third party comprised of socially liberal/fiscally conservative (not neocon) ideals.

Let me say this:  On behalf of Hillary and her supporters I feel marginalized and bullied.  (Not at a personal level: when I've written something here I've tried not to be insulting or too inflammatory and, as a result, I've received civil replies from people who disagree with me.  But I see/read a lot and in my gut (Stephen Colbert would be proud) there is something larger going on.  

There are multiple causes of this wreck, and so far I have only some of them identified:

First, there is a discourse disconnect here.  There are some fairly aggressive folks who fling demands for logic/math/proof left and right.  Yet it frequently seems to me that the challenge for "proof" is more about obfuscation and deflecting people's opinions by tangling them up in arguments about minutiae than about having a discussion.  This is effective if your goal is to shut people down, but it is not effective if your goal is to persuade.  In fact, it hardens opposition by infuriating people.  People don't need for you to agree with everything they say, but they do need to feel that their points of view are considered respectfully. (They need to be right sometimes, too, especially considering that they ARE right sometimes--and not just once in a blue moon.)

I realize that angry HRC supporters have been disrespectful, too, often slinging pejoratives when stuck in the middle of a silly "prove it" battle for the umpteenth time, and BO supporters are not all about logic, either; they use plenty of pejoratives.

What we've got going on is an adult version of, "Did not,"  "Did too," "Huh uh," "Yeah huh," with one side unable to resist grinding their (arguably unfair) advantage in in every way imaginable (from bloggers here to Edwards/Obama managing to steal the media thunder after HRC's WV landslide victory).  

HRC supporters will not give up before the nomination process is finished, and it's not a pro forma exercise.  And if the end result is not what they wish, why does anyone think they would all want to stay and play if the other team's idea of a good time is giving `em perpetual noogies? There's not much left to do then, but take their vote and go home.   Right now HRC supporters are being excoriated for telling the truth: that they're mad or distressed enough to defect.  But excoriation is not the answer.  That may shut 'em up while propelling them (quietly) toward the voting booth to do the unthinkable.

How did we get here?  There is an incredible amount of emotion tied up in this primary.  Remember, for many HRC supporters, the prospect of an amazingly talented and energetic woman as POTUS for the first time is deeply, deeply meaningful (finally, after what, 200+ years, and not getting the vote until 1920).  To have that candidate trashed by the media and by Democrats and by aggressive BO campaign tactics and supporters (and occasionally by BO, too) and then be told that we'd better get on board is fairly unrealistic.

Throw in the opinion (of many) that a fair amount of the  trashing has its roots in sexism.  I think that a comment by Fuzzy Dunlop is fundamental to understanding this:

"What I think it comes down to with many of my fellow HRC supporters, especially women, is the following: They just experienced a long process in which a more qualified woman was passed over for a promotion in favor of a man who is arguably unqualified for this job (by historical standards).  She lost for many reasons, among which was the thumb of an appallingly sexist media firmly on the scale during the critical period of the campaign, between NV and Super Tuesday.  

The whole experience mirrors to some degree patterns of sexism in our society that women struggle against every day - better qualified women losing out on jobs, lots of overt and more subtle sexist messaging from the media.  I think a lot of people feel that getting behind Obama means implicitly condoning that kind of sexism that runs rampant in society, and they are simply refusing to do so."

What we've got here is a collision of "logic" (sometimes it really is logic, but often not) and deep emotion.  

[Let me say that we ALL need both logic and emotion.  I refer you to a very interesting book called "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" by Antonio Damasio.  In it he finds that "[e]motions are not a luxury, they are essential to rational thinking," by looking at some interesting evidence: individuals (even very intelligent individuals) whose brain damage left them devoid of emotion but otherwise completely intact intellectually.  Unfortunately, without emotion, these people are not able to make rational decisions and are, consequently, unable to lead normal, successful lives.]

Another collision:  the first viable woman candidate versus the first viable black candidate.  And yikes, running against each other in the same party.  It required/requires an enormous amount of tact and, what some of you have always known and others are harshly learning, politics-as-usual ain't about tact. Why didn't  Dem elites/leaders have the sense to recognize what would happen when these two trucks barreled toward each other in the same lane?  I still find myself wistfully thinking that if Obama had waited America could have had them both, and now at best might get one--inevitably disappointing a huge swath of the Party, and--maybe neither.  

Worse, maybe they knew but didn't care:  I can't help wondering if bickering Dem elites have squandered this historic opportunity for the foreseeable future. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articl es/2008/05/18/as_clinton_chances_wane_ol d_slights_come_due/

This doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see a president of color--I certainly would.  African Americans are voting for BO in droves and I don't have the slightest problem with that, whether for qualification or racial reasons or both. Of course they want to see a capable person like themselves occupy the highest office in the land, who wouldn't?    

But hearing, "Aw gee, you'll get another woman one day soon--and better than this yucky one.  What if we throw in some other woman for VP?" does not help.  It's patronizing.

One thing that will eventually help is some serious effort to repair the damage done to Hillary's reputation (and Bill's too).  Let me be clear here.  This is not about being part of an HRC cult: the symbolism of her first-woman candidacy means that many of HRC's supporters are personally invested and, consequently, take the trashing very personally.  I don't know how the party's going to do it.  The hits on her have been so visceral that a sudden "It turns out we do admire her after all, yes indeed, what a scrapper!" sounds mighty insincere.    

I know that meanness is par for the course in politics, but the problem is, this is not a par for the course primary.  And sure, I realize that the Clinton campaign played rough on occasion.  However, the combined poison of Repub talking points/the media/AND other Dems took on the proportions of a swarm of killer bees.  (And speaking of deadly, here's another interesting read: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/l ifestyle/chi-fempower-0518may18,0,433371 4.column )

Ironically, Hillary and Bill, as seasoned politicians, may be able to deal with this better than her supporters can.
In the meantime, I'm still thinking, and if I can figure anything out I'll let you know.  Meanwhile, I can't give up the dream...

Another good read that explains the depth of feeling:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/l ifestyle/chi-fempower-0518may18,0,433371 4.column



Display:


Sanctimony. (1.00 / 7)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:51:23 PM EST

Re: Sanctimony. (1.75 / 4)

Very much so.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree... (2.00 / 4)

beautiful, articulate and spot on...

i love the "the thumb of an appallingly sexist media firmly on the scale during the critical period of the campaign, between NV and Super Tuesday."


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The thumb on the scale (2.00 / 1)

was for the new guy, it wasn't sexist any more than coverage before or after that point...the fact is Hillary would rise or fall as Hillary, being a woman is incidental to who she is...which will go down as her great accomplishment. She did not fail because of sexism, she did not fail because of the infantile male bloggers and their hissy fits, she failed because her team failed--her misplaced loyalty to Mark Penn et.al. weighed her down and ultimate sank her chances...I supported her in January and up until she started playing with guns and calling for a gas tax holiday, at which point she was no longer recognizable as the strong progressive who kicked all the boys' butts in the debates last year.


by Alice in Florida on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i dont disagree... (2.00 / 3)

that her team mark penn screwed things up royally.  but the coverage WAS and IS sexist. was it the reason she is LOSING, partly.  is it the sole reason?  absolutely not.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, this is a good diary (2.00 / 3)

Hillary supporters have legit concerns to be addressed.
by JJE on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sanctimony. (2.00 / 4)

What an entirely unhelpful comment.


by OaktownDad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I very much disagree (none / 0)

There is a sense of victimhood among Clinton supporters that is very real.

Having said that, I actually have trouble understanding posts like this.  It is one thing to be dissappointed in the outcome of a primary fight: it is another take seriously the notion that this dissapointment justifies voting for McCain.

The simple truth is that Clinton and Obama largely agree on:
The Iraq War: both want to end it.  McCain would have the War continue without end.
Iran:  McCain would likely take us to War with Iran.  Niether Obama nor McCain would.
Health Care: While there are differences (mainly around the mandate) there are significant similarities.  The two plans are much more similar to ech other than the McCain plan is.

I could go on.  

Fundementally I can't understand how anyone would vote for McCain based on the personal disappointement.

It strikes me as silly in the extreme.

But is also human.


by fladem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 9)

Support Hillary until it's over.  After think about what President McCain would be like for the country.

That ought to do it.  Should take less than 15 seconds to make the right choice.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:57:33 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 4)

Please read and reccomend this diary. It will help everyone here. Promise.
Barack Obama is my President
by Jeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 9)

I've read and recommended that very diary previously.  Your directing me to it begs the question: was there something inflammatory in my comment that prompted your suggestion?


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 6)

More TR abuse?!??  Catfish, wtf is your deal?


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

Mojo'd to offset TR abuse.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Danke.  That was nutso.  Complete rabid TR spree.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:19:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

He/she is still at it below.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

woah (none / 0)

you complaining about TR abuse?  LOL


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:39:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Nope. Just spreading the word to people who have been contributing to the discussion here for some time. I hopped a ride on your post. Apologies if you feel that it was specifically directed at you. Thanks for the ride!
Barack Obama is my President
by Jeter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:45:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 6)

I hope you all realize that many of the nasty Obama and Hillary supporters attacking each other are really Republican operatives working the blogosphere posing as either HRC or Obama supporters and intentionally causing discord.  If you don't believe me I am so sick of this that I will post the Republican Operation right here in order to prove it. 99% of Obama supporters and clinton supporters like both candidates. Remember back when the polls supported this in January & February and then it changed. It's the Republican Dirty tricks I promise you.  We always let them screw with us!!


by Voxlisa999 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 4)

Eh, I'm not falling for the Repubican games.  Honestly, I'm relatively confident most reasonable people will vote against McCain, regardless who our nominee.

Real democrats who care about progressive values will not allow McCain into the Whitehouse.


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 8)

Yo catfish1, what's with the TR abuse??!!??


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.00 / 6)

What a McCain presidency would be like:

1.  HRC, McCain, and Obama are pretty much the same on the war.  We're stuck there at least through the next Administration.

2.  McCain's Supreme Court nominees can be blocked by the Democrats if they show some spine, as they have failed to do in the past.  If we do get more reactionary ideologue justices, the Democratic Congress will be to blame, regardless of who is President.

3.  The only issue that really can't wait four more years is global warming/the environment.  But McCain is the only Republication who actualy will do something about that.

We can live with four years of McCain.  Any woman who votes for Obama is just validating what the press and the Obama campaign did to Clinton (not to mention also validating the systematic race-baiting of the Obama campaign). It's payback time.  Until women make  this behavior have a cost, we will never be respected.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:09:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.75 / 4)

What a crock Mr. or is it Mz. Plain Words.

1. they are the same on the war. Yes except Obama doesn't want to blitz Iran with tactical nukes,the other 2 do,at least McCain is for it and Hillary has said "obliterate Iran".

2. McCain might, or might nor send up wingnuts one after the other.

3."Only Republican who might do something" Really?

from Mr 535 out of 535 composite voting record on Environment,the E-vote composite of the Sierra, Audubon, Nature Conservancy Land trust and others. The lobbyists are all ready gearing up to oppose cap and trade and the energy bills are dead without huge petroleum subsidies. The worst record, even worse than Inhofe's (R) ExxonM.
McCain talks a good game but doesn't vote at all as he tells the press. The hypocrisy part he has mastered.

Asking others here and elsewhere to vote for McCain to "punsh" the democrats-brilliant!(snark)


by PeteRock on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.33 / 3)

I've never voted for a Republican and I have probably been voting for longer than you've been alive.  But I won't be voting for Obama and I most likely will be voting for McCain.  He is the lesser of two evils.

And yes, the clowns running the DNC and the fawning media and the thugs at DKos and the rest of you do need to be taught a lesson.  Sometimes you have to take some bad tasting medicine to cure a sickness.  Evidently, two unnecessary losses in a row were not enough for the Democratic party, so they set up some insane rules and then followed them blindly.  What they will get is a third loss, and hopefully it will do the trick.  Conduct like we've seen in this primary by the party and the media cannot and should not be rewarded.

Calls for unity now from people like you are completely phony and self-serving.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to leave (1.75 / 4)

This is a blog about electing Democrats, not bloody whiners who threaten to vote repug.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

I think it's very revealing that someone zero-rated my post above.  That means they do not want other people to be able to read it, even though it is a substantive comment.

What this means is that whoever did it is not even a small-d democrat, because they want to suppress the views of people who do not agree with them. The zero-rater is, in short, a thug. It also says something about the kind of person who supports Obama.  Of course this thug represents only a small portion of even Obama's less thoughtful supporters.  But there are enough of them to have driven free speech completely out of some of the blogs, like DKOS.  They would like to do the same here.  And they have had some success.  I used to be a Trusted User but lost it because of people just like this.  I'm okay with that because I no longer put much stock in any of the Internet forums, because they give too much power to thugs.

But the idea that an Obama victory will give people like this thug more power should scare all of us.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

If we do get more reactionary ideologue justices, the Democratic Congress will be to blame, regardless of who is President.

No. You will be to blame, because you helped put the President who appointed those justices in office.

And, sorry, but if you're willing throw our soldiers lives, any hope of a sane foreign policy, any hope of health care reform, and a generations' worth of women's and minority rights under the bus purely out of spite, you're incredibly immature. I don't give a damn how long you've been alive.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

I you had actually read my previous comment, the answers to what you've said are already there.  May I suggest a class in reading comprehension?  Perhaps some counseling would also be helpful, as you seem to have anger issues when people don't agree with you.  


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Speak for yourself. I am a woman who has spent 25 years in a male dominated business.  I do not need other women to fight my battles for me, I have learned how to do that myself.  Women have held the right to vote for less than 100 years. Many of the early women activists were subjected to forced feedings, jail time, and the loss of reputation and families.  These are the women who opened the door for me. I welcome the sisterhood and shared objectives but strongly repudiate the need for all of us to march in lock step.  That is the most wonderful thing about being an American, we are all free to choose our path, our hero's, and our convictions.  They do not all have to be the same.


by temptxan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

You are also free to make bad choices, as you have done.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

You mean until she wins? Sure, sounds good.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 9)

As someone committed to Obama's candidacy and hopeful for a victory in November that provides increased opportunities for both of these candidates to lead us in a positive direction, I just want you to know that I am reading and paying attention to the frustrations you and other Clinton supporters are voicing at this juncture.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:58:18 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 12)

I appreciate your thoughts.  It's unfortunate that we have to choose between two historic candidates.  Ultimately, I do think that most will come together, somehow.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:00:52 PM EST

If Obama had kept his word... (2.00 / 3)

He assured one and all that he would never run for President during his first term in the Senate. The decision to go back on his word was inherently divisive. Part of the anger is at his decision to force the party to choose between Black and woman. Party leadership has been horrendous in not managing the elections as though they wanted a success without indictment.

They have trashed the party values so severely that I seriously believe that there may need to be new parties  and maybe for a long time before people feel good about the process like we have in the past. If fear for us, now that I have seen the sickness that has gripped the web/media/campaign complex. I think something very dangerous has been unleashed that can't be put back.

There were a lot of things that could have stopped and reshaped what happened, but the people in the best positions to do it didn't.

How Hillary and Bill and Chelsea can rise over this and thrive, I can't fathom. And I certainly don't understand how it is that they still want to work for us and try to make our lives better.  What has been done to them while they tried to help us is unconscionable.


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama had kept his word... (none / 0)

Please tell me what has been done to Hillary, Bill and Chelsea that is so horrible?  Seriously, when you keep using such emotional words (fathom, unconsciounable, etc) it just makes it sound beyond repair - and for that I would like to know what exactly has been 'done' to them.  thanks


by mariannie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Welcome! Hope you enjoy your visit! (none / 0)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand (2.00 / 6)

The dream of many women, especially older women who feel like they may never see a female president during their lifetimes.

THe problem is that HRC's supporters are not giving enough blame to the campaign itself. The reason she is losing today has almost nothing to do with sexism. Was sexism involved? Of course. But even in the face of any sexism, if HRC did not buy into the notion that she was the inevitable candidate (remember the "it will be over by Super Tuesday), and she prepared for an actual campaign, rather than a coronation, she would be the nominee.
   


by highgrade on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:01:24 PM EST

Re: I understand (none / 0)

Yes, I think it has much more to do with tactical errors and Democrats' own unresolved feelings about the prior Clinton Administration (and a family dynasty) moreso than other factors.  But, clearly those factors were also at play.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (none / 0)

Exactly. If she had wrapped up the nomination at this point you would not be hearing anyone talking about sexism.


by highgrade on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see why this will take a long, long time. (2.00 / 1)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, you may have read this diary... (2.00 / 4)

but you certainly didn't learn anything from it - all of these comments completely miss the point.

I sincerely do not see how "togetherness" will ever happen at this rate.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, you may have read this diary... (2.00 / 1)

What would it take for "togetherness" to happen - short of Obama dropping out and endorsing Clinton (which isn't going to happen)?

Seriously.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A time warp back to democratic values. (1.50 / 2)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:55:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A time warp back to democratic values. (none / 0)

What does this mean?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A time warp back to democratic values. (2.00 / 1)

Oh, maybe...

Counting all the votes.

Respecting women and their issues, being adamantly for pro-choice, with women only making the decision about their bodies and lives.

Going for universal health care.

Supporting NASA.

Supporting SS and not wanting to privatize it.

NOT working with the nuclear industry to weaken reporting regulations.

Do you need more?


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (2.00 / 1)

It's not their problem if they feel like they can stay home in November.


by catfish1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (2.00 / 7)

I'm going to correct you:

Now it's the Democratic Party's problem.  Which means that it's not only Barack Obama's problem and my problem, but it's also Hillary Clinton's problem and the problem of anyone who calls him- or herself a Democrat.

We all have to do what it takes to make sure that the person taking office in January 2009 is a Democrat.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (2.00 / 2)

That troll-rating is completely inappropriate.  Please remove it.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (none / 0)

Uprated for another inappropriate troll rating.  Someone must have a finger cramp by now.


by temptxan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:39:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (2.00 / 3)

Oh wake up.  Most women who voted for Hillary voted for her because she was and is by far the better candidate, not because she is a woman.  And they are sick and tired of patronizing comments by people like you suggesting that they are too stupid to vote based on the legislative record.  Obama would not even have lasted past January if he had been white or female, because he is not qualified.  His accomplishments are nonexistent and, like Bill Clinton said, the whole story of his one supposed action (a speech!) is a fairy tale.  Google Joe Wilson's piece at Huffington about that.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:48:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (none / 0)

Look, I don't comment very often.  This diary and thread have been the best that I've seen in awhile on here.  Actual discourse is occuring between the partisan sides of this primary.  And you are soiling that.  Stop just attacking people.  Please.


by jacen42 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:16:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not attacking; this is educating. (2.00 / 2)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:57:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 7)

I will vote for the the democrat even if it is BO but my support and by that i mean monies to the BO campaign and other democratic cause would be a lot easier for me to justify if HRC was on the bottom of the democratic ticket.

Look i understand that a lot of BO supporters hate HRC and dont want her on the ticket but i would like them to think about how hard it is for HRC supporter to vote for and support BO.

david


by giusd on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:04:50 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

See, as many problems as I've come to have with Hillary Clinton in the past two months, this is something I really don't get:

Why do you want her to take a step down from the Senate to the VP's office? She is in a position to become one of if not the most influential Senators in the country. And if (God forbid) we do lose Ted Kennedy, she is the country's leading voice on health care. I think she can be far more effective on that issue (and others) from the Senate than from the Veep's office.


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

See to me this is just another excuse to disrepect HRC supporters.  She could and should be the first women vice president.  

david


by giusd on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

How is it disrespecting HRC supporters to suggest that she could achieve more, and do more good for the country, with a long and fruitful career as a party leader in the Senate than with four or eight years in the shadows of the VP's office?

As my Senator for the last seven years, I think she's done many good things in that office, and I'd love to see her take the tenaciousness she's brought to this primary race right into the Majority Leader's office.


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:43:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

That is the same line given to women in all kinds of clubs, companies, etc.

You know, like this:

Here, little lady, have the secretary or treasurers office. You will do more good there. You don't REALLY want to be next in line if the President has to step down for some reason. Now, don't worry your little head about it, we'll take care of running things. You can do the bookwork and dole out the money, but only according to how WE want it doled out. You don't want to have to make all those HARD decisions, do you? It's too much WORK for you, you little dear. You might get hysterical.

See how that works, and what you are saying?


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Right. Cause being a United States Senator is just like being the "secretary" of the United States government. Daniel Webster, John C. Calhoun, Ted Kennedy, Daniel Patrick Moynihan. The "secretaries" of the U.S. govenment.

You don't want to have to make all those HARD decisions, do you? It's too much WORK for you, you little dear. You might get hysterical.

Yeah, people say shit like that all the time to John Kerry, Pat Leahy, Barbara Boxer, Karl Levin, Claire McCaskill, Bob Graham, Dick Durbin, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd....

Jesus Christ.

Of course, on the biggest decision Clinton had to make as a U.S. Senator, she fucked it up royally. Which is why she'll never be president.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Still saying:

"you don't want to be the head honcho, no way"


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Well, if she wanted to be "head honcho", she should have voted her conscience in October of 2002, instead of following that wet finger she had stuck in the polling wind like Dick Morris or Mark Penn. Maybe she did think the war was a good idea, judging from her idiotic vote on Kyl-Leiberman and her stupid ranting about "obliterating" Iran.

Whichever the case, it isn't about what she "wants". I "want" to be three inches taller and ten years younger. She didn't win the nomination. She lost because she voted for Bush's war. I would love to see her acknowledge that simple fact, and stop playing the victim card.

Exactly what school of feminism is it that teaches that a woman of sixty is not responsible for her own decisions, choices and (in the case of a legislator) votes?


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that supposed war vote again and again and again.

I just don't hold that against her, considering all the other things she has done that were good. She's come out for refunding science, has a whole health care plan, and doesn't want to cut funding for NASA.

I trust her intelligence and grasp of the issues.


by splashy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:09:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

"suppposed"?

Jesus Christ.


by BlueinColorado on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

"See how that works, and what you are saying?"

No. Not really. I used to live in Massachusetts, and I'm quite certain Ted Kennedy has exercised more power and done more good things for his home state and for the country in his 46 years in the Senate than he ever could have accomplished in four or eight years in the White House...maybe even more than he could have accomplished had he won the presidential nomination in 1980.

Ditto for Robert Byrd in WV. And, yes, for Barbara Boxer in CA.

I'd like for Hillary Clinton to be remembered as that kind of senator for the state of New York. I was standing in the crowd at Pat Moynihan's farm on the day almost eight years ago when he introduced Clinton as the candidate for his seat, and I'm pretty sure he would have bristled at any suggestion that his beloved Senate was somehow inferior in any way to the Executive Branch.

And, you know, if being the junior Senator from the State of New York is something Mrs. Clinton sees as merely a consolation prize, it seems to me that come 2012, my interests might therefore be better served by electing someone who actually WANTS the job.

See how that works, and what you are saying?


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Still saying:

"You don't want to be the head honcho, or next in line. You are better in a supporting position."


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Odd...MY Constitution says we have three co-equal branches of government. Yours obviously doesn't.


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Let's see -

Congress: a large GROUP of people, the legislative branch that creates laws.  

The Supreme Court: another group of people, much smaller, that decide if the laws are constitutional and makes judicial rulings.

The Presidency: ONE person that actually DOES things. You know the EXECUTIVE branch? The person that EXECUTES things and is the Commander in Chief of the military?

Sounds like a head honcho to me; as much as WE have here in the US. It doesn't GET any more individual and head honcho than that here.


by splashy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

See to me this is just another excuse to disrepect HRC supporters

How you read "disrespect" in to what I said is utterly beyond me. And, significantly, not for HRC, but for her "supporters".

I guess I can't fathom the depths of your need to paint yourselves as victims.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

See my post above to see how it sounds to a woman.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What I want (2.00 / 5)

I don't care if my candidate is black, white, man, or woman.  I don't care.  And I understand not everyone thinks like that, and it's fine.  Would I LOVE to see a black president?  Yes.  Would I LOVE to see a woman president?  Yes.  And make no mistake- there's only one party that's going to give that to America.

But what I can't keep tolerating, and I fully give you that you're not directly doing it here, is people that insist on telling me my support of Obama has anything to do with sexism, or Hillary being a woman.  I find it insulting when it's even insinuated.  I've worked my ass off, for years, for abused women.  I've worked my ass off against genital mutilation around the world.  I've worked my ass off trying to educate people about sex trafficking, and how it impacts women around this country, and world.  And people tell me all Obama voters are sexist, and somehow keeping women down by voting for the candidate we think is best???

Was Obama rough on Hillary?  OF COURSE.  And Hillary was rough on Obama.  "Change you can Xerox"?  "Not ready to lead"?  It was a CAMPAIGN.  And a rough one at times, sure.  But I don't think Obama took cheap shots, no more than Hillary did by any means.  I think they fought it out.  And while it's going to the judges, it's pretty clear that unless somehow, Clinton magically gets 70% of the remaining superdelegates, Obama's the nominee.

I fully support any woman (or man) in their right to support their candidate.  But I cannot, and will not, tolerate being called sexist because I chose the candidate that I felt would be the best leader of our nation, and that candidate doesn't happen to be the female.  That is unacceptable, divisive, hate speech, as far as I'm concerned, and any Democrat who didn't arrive here from Drudge would be wise to remember that.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:07:47 PM EST

Change the word "sexist" to (2.00 / 7)

"racist" and re-read what you wrote.  That's what we HRC supporters have felt as long as you have had your own feelings.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change the word "sexist" to (2.00 / 2)

And that's totally understandable.  I don't agree with the racism charges either, not leveled en masse.

But if you read through this site, in particular, and compare the occurrences of the two, you'll see a lot more of one than the other.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you really understand? (2.00 / 9)

That's because this site is where Clinton supporters fled from the ugly racist accusations and sexist attacks on other blogs.  Here was a refuge where we could discuss the rampant unfair treatment of our candidate that we witness daily and not be gang-derided.  And yes, we dared to question the credentials of her opponent, who was unaccountably deemed "presumptive" after Iowa.  Now they've followed us here to practice new strategies to embarrass, demoralize, and dismiss us.  You may think it's a coincidence that that's what always happens to women when they try to gain real, as opposed to token, power.  I don't.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really understand? (none / 0)

I don't think Hillary lost because of her gender.

Do you really think she lost because of her gender?  If so then are you arguing that America is not ready for a woman president?


by hienmango on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:30:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really understand? (none / 0)

58% of Democratic primary voters this year were women. 58%.

This was not a case of a bunch of men keeping a woman down, regardless of what some of the more extreme people here would like you to think.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:14:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really understand? (2.00 / 3)

I sort of see your point, and I can't agree or disagree.  I've always checked three political blogs multiple times a day- Kos, MyDD, and AmericaBlog.  

I can't speak for all Dems, or all bloggers, or all men, or all women.  Can't vouch for every Obama supporter- as there are overzealous Clintonites all over the place here, there are certainly as many (and likely more) overzealous Obamaites out there.

I also don't want to cheapen what Hillary has done- because I will most CERTAINLY point to her campaign when my daughters ask if they can be president (or, even better, when they DON'T ask and simply declare they will be!).  Her candidacy is historic, there's no dispute, and I think 95% of Obama supporters will certainly say the same.  So don't hate me for saying this:

For most of us, this election is about more than that.

We have had eight years of the worst president in our nation's history.  We have had eight years of unjust and illegal war.  Of economic policies that have left this nation in tatters, and people from coast-to-coast facing foreclosure, unemployment, and skyrocketing cost of living increases, while the rich have gotten richer.  We've had eight years of isolation, and eight years of losing our standing as one of the leading countries in the world.  Eight years of torture and secret tribunals.  Eight years of grown men using the spectre of towers that once stood tall in my home town, and the 3,000 people that died when they fell, as an instrument of fear to keep them in power.

I don't think your candidate has been treated more unfairly than mine.  Have both been treated unfairly at times?  Absolutely.  But that's the way campaigns work, sad to say.  I don't think most Obama supporters have any desire to deride, or embarrass you.  Some have, and they're just as wrong as the 40% of Clinton voters in Kentucky who would rather vote for McCain than Obama, or the 20% who said that race was a factor for their vote for Hillary in the exit polls.  

I don't think that for the vast majority of Obama candidates, they are fighting for him to win because Hillary is a woman and Obama is man.   The same way I don't think most of the Hillary supporters aren't supporting her because she's a woman.  I think they feel their candidate is the best president.  If you think that this is about a woman gaining real, as opposed to token, power, then I'm sorry for you, and I hope that the majority of the voters don't feel the same.  Because this is about fixing this country, and making it great again, and whether Obama or Hillary wins, I was hoping we'd all be on board in the end.  I guess I was naive.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One vote gave Barack an opening (none / 0)

I don't remember where I heard it first: If Hillary had voted against Iraq there wouldn't have been room for Barack to run. There wouldn't have been room for anyone else. That gap gave him a starting point to work from.


by patooker on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What I want (2.00 / 4)

Thank you for everything you have done for women, and I'm sure many others who really needed your help Thank You for speaking out now about how you feel. You make me proud to be a Democrat.
Barack Obama is my President
by Jeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This resonates with me as well (2.00 / 5)

Though I do not have the same credentials for supporting women's rights, I was raised by my mother, mostly by herself, and watching and supporting her grow her professional career as a grade school teacher to a Univesity professor and published poet.  I also believe my girlfriend is at least my equal if not far superior to me in many ways.  I went to Law school and graduated along side a female majority of intelligent people.

I chose Barack because of his positions and not based on his gender.  My mother and girlfriend support him too for the same reasons.

I have been back and forth in being graceful to downright incensed with some supposed Hillary supporters.  I think and hope most of this discourse is due to misleading operatives in the system who continue to interject fallacious arguments and muckrackery for the sake of sustaining the divide.  I would hope many Hillary supporters can see through this and not be tempted by the devil.  

And let me make it clear that I do not think any pro-Hillary arguments based on logic, honesty, and reason are trollish, they are welcomed and encouraged, but lately this has not happened.  And attacks against flimsy math and "I'll vote for McCain" could be perceived by a real pro-HIllary observer as attacking Hillary and her supporters rudely and arrogantly.  It is not, it is keeping the discourse honest and fair and protecting the integrity of this site


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This resonates with me as well (none / 0)

Sounds like your entire family has had health care for your entire lives. That is probably one of the reasons you have the luxury of supporting Obama.

Those of us that don't have health care insurance don't have that luxury. We REALLY need help, and Obama does NOT offer it with his half a health care plan. Clinton does. It's that simple. His plan will fail, and we will have more years of sickness and death caused by a lack of universal health care. I hear it's up to over 20,000 a year now, far more that American have died in Iraq.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I did have a meager health care program, and I (none / 0)

am sorry you don't.  I didn't know Obama's non-punishable health care plan would exclude you, it seems to be pretty universal.  Please explain to me why it wouldn't cover you?

Also, plans can be tweaked and aren't set in stone so if there are some serious errors, maybe that can be adjusted


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I did have a meager health care program, and I (none / 0)

The key thing is it will fail, and then the right wingers can point to it and claim that universal health care won't work, that it costs too much.

The only way a plan will work is if everyone is involved. That's the only way to control costs and make sure everyone gets treated.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's pretty weak arguement, (none / 0)

to flat out say it will fail.  No substance my friend, no argument


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:53:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's pretty weak arguement, (none / 0)

It's the cost issue. If the young and healthy don't buy in, it WILL fail. The young males are especially bad about thinking they will never need health care, unless they have an accident.

Did you watch the program on C-Span about how the Massachusetts program is coming along? They have had a real problem with the young males, even though they help people pay for the premiums if they can't swing it. They have fines if people don't buy in. Is Obama going to have that? If so, it will be a mandate, just like Clinton's plan, but he isn't going to call it that.

But, hey, I bet you have health care, or you would be concerned about it too.


by splashy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:14:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I cringe a bit at the sexism charge, too (2.00 / 5)

Because it cheapens the support of males like me and females who support Clinton for reasons other than gender.  Yeah, I think I'd like to have a woman president for a change, but, I think she is just a flat out better choice than him regardless of gender.  Although she has the feminine traits he lacks she sometimes appears to have more of the masculine ones than him, too.


by lombard on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which would be... (none / 0)

Upper-body strength?  Doubt it.  A deeper, more resounding voice?  I hope you're not suggesting talking tough on Iran is or constantly claiming to be a fighter is a masculine trait

As for the "feminine" traits you didn't bother to elaborate on, I wouldn't go there.  Gender-based arguments are a real bad idea in either direction.


by corph on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then don't tolerate it. (none / 0)

Don't tolerate it, don't ask for votes, don't worry about winning the G.E.


by catfish1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then don't tolerate it. (none / 0)

I'm not worried about the G.E..  I'm confident Obama will be fine.  But I'm also confident that any Democrat who cares about the country will support him over McCain, regardless of his sex.  


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, wow. THANK YOU so much (2.00 / 6)

for everything you say in this diary.

If I could rec it 1,000 times I would.

As my son who is in England would probably say, "Spot on"!


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:13:36 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 11)

I am not blind to your concerns, and I am sorry that we find ourselves at this point.

I don't like seeing reasonable people feel marginalized.  Seriously, it's unpleasant.

I do want to say, for myself, that it's just not so simple as qualifications for me.  I ask myself how these two candidates would behave and perform should they win, and for me the choice is obvious.  And, for myself, his being male is simply irrelevant.  Likewise her being female.  I know myself, and I know my views.  

One of the things that many of Senator Clinton's supporters admire is her "fighter" persona.  I acknowledge that, and I do not denigrate it.  It is, however, one of my problems with the Hillary Clinton premise, and it simply reinforces why I prefer Senator Obama.

I am tired of treating politics as bare-knuckled boxing.  I know the fault lies more with the Republicans than the Democrats (and I will brook no lecture on the topic), but this year is the best shot I have ever seen, and probably the best shot I will ever see, to try to raise the bar.

I want reason.  I want intellect.  I want civility.  I want nuance.

Senator Clinton possesses those qualities, but she has intentionally presented herself as a more regular person because it helps her.  I'm not saying that this is a bad thing.  It is not, however, what I want.

Setting aside her gender for a moment, there is simply nothing about Senator Clinton's candidacy that rings true to me.  I do not forgive her vote on the AUMF.  

None of this is a poisonous attack on a fellow Democrat.  My reasons for preferring Senator Obama are, I think, reasonable.

I offer my thoughts, such as they are, that you might understand that I'm not coming from a dark place where I'd prefer to keep women in their place.  I simply will not prefer a candidate based on her gender, and I will not avoid speaking my mind because some topics are taboo.  That is not my nature.

I will be respectful with reasonable people.  You deserve that.  Most every Clinton supporter I've ever met deserves it.  The internet, however, is  a haven for wignuts and jerks.  Every campaign has 'em.  I'm not blaming Senator Clinton for some of the idiots who have denigrated her by simply being her supporters.

Please don't hold the worst of Obama's supporters against him.  Any group as big as these (17 million or so each) is gonna have idiots.

Please, forgive us for our failings.  I truly regret them, though they are mostly borne of those who know no better.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:31 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 3)

congrats on a great diary.

i think people relate to this, outside of this primary. at some point or another, we all have this feeling where we cant get a word in during an arguement and feel overlooked or under-represented, and shut out, told to shut up and go with it....

I hope more people come to understand each other, and are more sympathetic to each other, because that is what the democratic party is all about.


lemon716, mydd's little lemon drop;
by alyssa chaos on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:46 PM EST

You know (2.00 / 6)

When this whole thing started, I supported Edwards.  I am a populist and his message was the closest thing to what I believe as any candidate has mouthed in my adult lifetime.  That said, I was convinced that Clinton was going to win.  Everyone said it, everyone believed it.  

I like Hillary and I was more than willing to pull the lever for her should she win even though I was greatly disappointed when Edwards bowed out.  I felt that the media pretty much scooted his ass out the door because he didn't fit the media storyline whereby a woman and an african american would go head-to-head in the primary.  I will admit, I was a little bitter and I personally didn't care who won.

Then things started changing.  Hillary became less inevitable, the primary felt like an actual competition rather than a foregone conclusion.  Interesting yes, but I really didn't have a dog in the hunt.

As time has gone on, I still like both candidates, although neither with the strength I felt about an Edwards nomination, but heck, they were both okay.  I slightly prefer Obama, but I don't think it is him so much as frustration at the changing rules of the game.  I think that the latter parts of this race, with all the shifting metrics has sort of pissed me off and offended some sense of fairness in me.  I find that the more the rules have changed, the more I root for Obama...weird but true.

What I need to say is that even though I have slowly migrated to Obama as my preferred choice, that doesn't mean that I hate Hillary.  As a candidate, her run would have been historic.  The same is also true for Obama.  I am sure for every person that feels completely deflated about the prospect of their candidate losing, there is another who is finally realizing a life long dream.  This will be true no matter who takes the nomination.

I suppose I am rambling, but what I am trying to say is that it would be nice if everything was a win win, but it is not, which is why most people I know do not like the idea of politics...I think losing an election would feel pretty personal.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:08 PM EST

Well Said (2.00 / 1)

I started with Edwards, then he dropped out. Wavered a while, then went with the candidate with the forward momentum. Obama and Clinton are incredibly close in the substance of their political stances, and both are a HELLUVA lot better than McSame could ever hope to be. But Clinton was FAR ahead and "inevitable", and she's been on a downward trajectory, overall, since the beginning. It's like the more she was in the public spotlight, the further her numbers slid - until we get to now. I like her and respect her, but she just didn't run a campaign that won the Primary by the inarguably screwed up rules.

Sadly, only one candidate can win...


by RNinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

downward trajectory (2.00 / 1)

Like Obama after February...as he has lost battle-ground state primary one after another.  I think by now we are all just talking past one another.  I will read these sites for amusement only. Either you get what this diarist says or not.  And many do not as you continue to argue, tell Clinton supporters we are wrong and why you are right.  Whatever.  Obama will have to earn my vote like Clinton earned it.  I don't give it just because the media and the part select him.  So keep arguing with Clinton supporters, keep telling us why we are wrong...keep talking over us and past us...we will see in November if your approach works


by emmasaint on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

again (2.00 / 4)

I understand where the diarist and the HRC supporters are coming from - i just happen to disagree. I think it's offensive to Obama supporters for HRC supporters to say this is another example of an unqualified male getting a job over the over qualified female applicant. Everytime someone tries to make this argument, I think for many Obama supporters the blinders come on.  


by highgrade on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:46 PM EST

the experience argument (2.00 / 3)

That was my only fundamental gripe about this otherwise thoughtful, well-written diary.

Clinton and Obama both have different types of experiences, both of which I value more than those that have shaped Senator McCain.

However, if we really want to talk about experience in governance, Chris Dodd or Joe Biden would beat them both hands down. Given their early exits from the race, clearly the Democratic electorate looks at many factors beyond just experience.


by emptythreatsfarm on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the experience argument (2.00 / 6)

Hey, thanks for the compliment--my first diary.

As to your concern:
You'll notice that FD used the words "arguably" and "by historical standards."  The intention is not to say that Obama IS less qualified; rather, it's to say that it's within the realm of reason for some to entertain this opinion. In other words, reasonable people can disagree about who is better qualified, and folks who think that person is Hillary have some historical evidence to support that belief. (And you are welcome to share your evidence that you believe BO's the better candidate.) Many think Hillary is, and they will vote for her accordingly.  Many think the candidates are very similar but will vote for Hillary because, all things being equal, they really want to get a woman into the Oval Office.  And there may be some who are voting only on gender as a qualification and want HRC as president primarily because she is a woman.  And of course, the same goes for BO.  He'll receive votes both from those who believe he is better qualified and/or from those who really want to get a black man into the Oval Office.

I hope you do not mind if I also use this spot to clarify (for some other posters) that I do not believe most people voting for BO are doing so for sexist reasons against Hilllary. (In fact, sad to say, I believe that it's equally or more likely that he'll be denied some votes for racist reasons.

We must each ask ourselves, "Do I use/pile on nasty epithets/ugly Republican talking points and death jokes? (Do I have some snarky fun when I can't think of another way to bolster my reasons for liking BO better? Or to raise her negatives as part of a campaign strategy?  Have I objected when I hear this stuff?  What does it mean when I find that I have a deepseated hatred for HRC--could it really be just about her policy ideas and campaign tactics, or is it possible that I have  been infected by societal and or political prejudices,  or by my dislike of some of her husband's policies or behavior, or just by hearing smears so often I've come to accept them as true?  
 I am not accusing any individual here of any of this--haven't conversed with you enough to make that judgment. But I'm pretty sure we're all products of our society at this time/place.  Consequently we are none of us free of all prejudices and bigotry--myself included.

For the record I do not hate or even dislike BO.   He's very likeable: a good speaker with wonderful charisma.  I think he and his ca