What Do You Want?

This has been asked a few times lately, but it's hard to answer given that I'm still supporting Hillary for the Democratic nominee.  I do see that the mountain is steep, so I am not ignoring the question, but rather, giving it serious thought. Before I can answer it, I need to more fully understand why I feel so strongly.

Truth is, I'm not ready to get on board with Obama if Hillary does not get the nomination.  I, too, am having a political identity crisis, wondering whether the Democratic Party is the right place for me anymore.  I have not declared that I'm voting for McCain, but I'd be lying to say I haven't seriously thought about it.  Trying to find a way down off that cliff, I am looking at all my options.  Right about now I'm wishing for a third party comprised of socially liberal/fiscally conservative (not neocon) ideals.

Let me say this:  On behalf of Hillary and her supporters I feel marginalized and bullied.  (Not at a personal level: when I've written something here I've tried not to be insulting or too inflammatory and, as a result, I've received civil replies from people who disagree with me.  But I see/read a lot and in my gut (Stephen Colbert would be proud) there is something larger going on.  

There are multiple causes of this wreck, and so far I have only some of them identified:

First, there is a discourse disconnect here.  There are some fairly aggressive folks who fling demands for logic/math/proof left and right.  Yet it frequently seems to me that the challenge for "proof" is more about obfuscation and deflecting people's opinions by tangling them up in arguments about minutiae than about having a discussion.  This is effective if your goal is to shut people down, but it is not effective if your goal is to persuade.  In fact, it hardens opposition by infuriating people.  People don't need for you to agree with everything they say, but they do need to feel that their points of view are considered respectfully. (They need to be right sometimes, too, especially considering that they ARE right sometimes--and not just once in a blue moon.)

I realize that angry HRC supporters have been disrespectful, too, often slinging pejoratives when stuck in the middle of a silly "prove it" battle for the umpteenth time, and BO supporters are not all about logic, either; they use plenty of pejoratives.

What we've got going on is an adult version of, "Did not,"  "Did too," "Huh uh," "Yeah huh," with one side unable to resist grinding their (arguably unfair) advantage in in every way imaginable (from bloggers here to Edwards/Obama managing to steal the media thunder after HRC's WV landslide victory).  

HRC supporters will not give up before the nomination process is finished, and it's not a pro forma exercise.  And if the end result is not what they wish, why does anyone think they would all want to stay and play if the other team's idea of a good time is giving `em perpetual noogies? There's not much left to do then, but take their vote and go home.   Right now HRC supporters are being excoriated for telling the truth: that they're mad or distressed enough to defect.  But excoriation is not the answer.  That may shut 'em up while propelling them (quietly) toward the voting booth to do the unthinkable.

How did we get here?  There is an incredible amount of emotion tied up in this primary.  Remember, for many HRC supporters, the prospect of an amazingly talented and energetic woman as POTUS for the first time is deeply, deeply meaningful (finally, after what, 200+ years, and not getting the vote until 1920).  To have that candidate trashed by the media and by Democrats and by aggressive BO campaign tactics and supporters (and occasionally by BO, too) and then be told that we'd better get on board is fairly unrealistic.

Throw in the opinion (of many) that a fair amount of the  trashing has its roots in sexism.  I think that a comment by Fuzzy Dunlop is fundamental to understanding this:

"What I think it comes down to with many of my fellow HRC supporters, especially women, is the following: They just experienced a long process in which a more qualified woman was passed over for a promotion in favor of a man who is arguably unqualified for this job (by historical standards).  She lost for many reasons, among which was the thumb of an appallingly sexist media firmly on the scale during the critical period of the campaign, between NV and Super Tuesday.  

The whole experience mirrors to some degree patterns of sexism in our society that women struggle against every day - better qualified women losing out on jobs, lots of overt and more subtle sexist messaging from the media.  I think a lot of people feel that getting behind Obama means implicitly condoning that kind of sexism that runs rampant in society, and they are simply refusing to do so."

What we've got here is a collision of "logic" (sometimes it really is logic, but often not) and deep emotion.  

[Let me say that we ALL need both logic and emotion.  I refer you to a very interesting book called "Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain" by Antonio Damasio.  In it he finds that "[e]motions are not a luxury, they are essential to rational thinking," by looking at some interesting evidence: individuals (even very intelligent individuals) whose brain damage left them devoid of emotion but otherwise completely intact intellectually.  Unfortunately, without emotion, these people are not able to make rational decisions and are, consequently, unable to lead normal, successful lives.]

Another collision:  the first viable woman candidate versus the first viable black candidate.  And yikes, running against each other in the same party.  It required/requires an enormous amount of tact and, what some of you have always known and others are harshly learning, politics-as-usual ain't about tact. Why didn't  Dem elites/leaders have the sense to recognize what would happen when these two trucks barreled toward each other in the same lane?  I still find myself wistfully thinking that if Obama had waited America could have had them both, and now at best might get one--inevitably disappointing a huge swath of the Party, and--maybe neither.  

Worse, maybe they knew but didn't care:  I can't help wondering if bickering Dem elites have squandered this historic opportunity for the foreseeable future. http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articl es/2008/05/18/as_clinton_chances_wane_ol d_slights_come_due/

This doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see a president of color--I certainly would.  African Americans are voting for BO in droves and I don't have the slightest problem with that, whether for qualification or racial reasons or both. Of course they want to see a capable person like themselves occupy the highest office in the land, who wouldn't?    

But hearing, "Aw gee, you'll get another woman one day soon--and better than this yucky one.  What if we throw in some other woman for VP?" does not help.  It's patronizing.

One thing that will eventually help is some serious effort to repair the damage done to Hillary's reputation (and Bill's too).  Let me be clear here.  This is not about being part of an HRC cult: the symbolism of her first-woman candidacy means that many of HRC's supporters are personally invested and, consequently, take the trashing very personally.  I don't know how the party's going to do it.  The hits on her have been so visceral that a sudden "It turns out we do admire her after all, yes indeed, what a scrapper!" sounds mighty insincere.    

I know that meanness is par for the course in politics, but the problem is, this is not a par for the course primary.  And sure, I realize that the Clinton campaign played rough on occasion.  However, the combined poison of Repub talking points/the media/AND other Dems took on the proportions of a swarm of killer bees.  (And speaking of deadly, here's another interesting read: http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/l ifestyle/chi-fempower-0518may18,0,433371 4.column )

Ironically, Hillary and Bill, as seasoned politicians, may be able to deal with this better than her supporters can.
In the meantime, I'm still thinking, and if I can figure anything out I'll let you know.  Meanwhile, I can't give up the dream...

Another good read that explains the depth of feeling:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/l ifestyle/chi-fempower-0518may18,0,433371 4.column



Display:


Sanctimony. (1.00 / 7)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:51:23 PM EST

Re: Sanctimony. (1.75 / 4)

Very much so.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree... (2.00 / 4)

beautiful, articulate and spot on...

i love the "the thumb of an appallingly sexist media firmly on the scale during the critical period of the campaign, between NV and Super Tuesday."


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The thumb on the scale (2.00 / 1)

was for the new guy, it wasn't sexist any more than coverage before or after that point...the fact is Hillary would rise or fall as Hillary, being a woman is incidental to who she is...which will go down as her great accomplishment. She did not fail because of sexism, she did not fail because of the infantile male bloggers and their hissy fits, she failed because her team failed--her misplaced loyalty to Mark Penn et.al. weighed her down and ultimate sank her chances...I supported her in January and up until she started playing with guns and calling for a gas tax holiday, at which point she was no longer recognizable as the strong progressive who kicked all the boys' butts in the debates last year.


by Alice in Florida on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i dont disagree... (2.00 / 3)

that her team mark penn screwed things up royally.  but the coverage WAS and IS sexist. was it the reason she is LOSING, partly.  is it the sole reason?  absolutely not.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, this is a good diary (2.00 / 3)

Hillary supporters have legit concerns to be addressed.
by JJE on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sanctimony. (2.00 / 4)

What an entirely unhelpful comment.


by OaktownDad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I very much disagree (none / 0)

There is a sense of victimhood among Clinton supporters that is very real.

Having said that, I actually have trouble understanding posts like this.  It is one thing to be dissappointed in the outcome of a primary fight: it is another take seriously the notion that this dissapointment justifies voting for McCain.

The simple truth is that Clinton and Obama largely agree on:
The Iraq War: both want to end it.  McCain would have the War continue without end.
Iran:  McCain would likely take us to War with Iran.  Niether Obama nor McCain would.
Health Care: While there are differences (mainly around the mandate) there are significant similarities.  The two plans are much more similar to ech other than the McCain plan is.

I could go on.  

Fundementally I can't understand how anyone would vote for McCain based on the personal disappointement.

It strikes me as silly in the extreme.

But is also human.


by fladem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 9)

Support Hillary until it's over.  After think about what President McCain would be like for the country.

That ought to do it.  Should take less than 15 seconds to make the right choice.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:57:33 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 4)

Please read and reccomend this diary. It will help everyone here. Promise.
by Jeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 9)

I've read and recommended that very diary previously.  Your directing me to it begs the question: was there something inflammatory in my comment that prompted your suggestion?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 6)

More TR abuse?!??  Catfish, wtf is your deal?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

Mojo'd to offset TR abuse.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Danke.  That was nutso.  Complete rabid TR spree.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:19:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

He/she is still at it below.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

woah (none / 0)

you complaining about TR abuse?  LOL


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:39:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Nope. Just spreading the word to people who have been contributing to the discussion here for some time. I hopped a ride on your post. Apologies if you feel that it was specifically directed at you. Thanks for the ride!
by Jeter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:45:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 6)

I hope you all realize that many of the nasty Obama and Hillary supporters attacking each other are really Republican operatives working the blogosphere posing as either HRC or Obama supporters and intentionally causing discord.  If you don't believe me I am so sick of this that I will post the Republican Operation right here in order to prove it. 99% of Obama supporters and clinton supporters like both candidates. Remember back when the polls supported this in January & February and then it changed. It's the Republican Dirty tricks I promise you.  We always let them screw with us!!


by Voxlisa999 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 4)

Eh, I'm not falling for the Repubican games.  Honestly, I'm relatively confident most reasonable people will vote against McCain, regardless who our nominee.

Real democrats who care about progressive values will not allow McCain into the Whitehouse.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 8)

Yo catfish1, what's with the TR abuse??!!??


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.00 / 6)

What a McCain presidency would be like:

1.  HRC, McCain, and Obama are pretty much the same on the war.  We're stuck there at least through the next Administration.

2.  McCain's Supreme Court nominees can be blocked by the Democrats if they show some spine, as they have failed to do in the past.  If we do get more reactionary ideologue justices, the Democratic Congress will be to blame, regardless of who is President.

3.  The only issue that really can't wait four more years is global warming/the environment.  But McCain is the only Republication who actualy will do something about that.

We can live with four years of McCain.  Any woman who votes for Obama is just validating what the press and the Obama campaign did to Clinton (not to mention also validating the systematic race-baiting of the Obama campaign). It's payback time.  Until women make  this behavior have a cost, we will never be respected.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:09:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.75 / 4)

What a crock Mr. or is it Mz. Plain Words.

1. they are the same on the war. Yes except Obama doesn't want to blitz Iran with tactical nukes,the other 2 do,at least McCain is for it and Hillary has said "obliterate Iran".

2. McCain might, or might nor send up wingnuts one after the other.

3."Only Republican who might do something" Really?

from Mr 535 out of 535 composite voting record on Environment,the E-vote composite of the Sierra, Audubon, Nature Conservancy Land trust and others. The lobbyists are all ready gearing up to oppose cap and trade and the energy bills are dead without huge petroleum subsidies. The worst record, even worse than Inhofe's (R) ExxonM.
McCain talks a good game but doesn't vote at all as he tells the press. The hypocrisy part he has mastered.

Asking others here and elsewhere to vote for McCain to "punsh" the democrats-brilliant!(snark)


by PeteRock on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.33 / 3)

I've never voted for a Republican and I have probably been voting for longer than you've been alive.  But I won't be voting for Obama and I most likely will be voting for McCain.  He is the lesser of two evils.

And yes, the clowns running the DNC and the fawning media and the thugs at DKos and the rest of you do need to be taught a lesson.  Sometimes you have to take some bad tasting medicine to cure a sickness.  Evidently, two unnecessary losses in a row were not enough for the Democratic party, so they set up some insane rules and then followed them blindly.  What they will get is a third loss, and hopefully it will do the trick.  Conduct like we've seen in this primary by the party and the media cannot and should not be rewarded.

Calls for unity now from people like you are completely phony and self-serving.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You need to leave (1.75 / 4)

This is a blog about electing Democrats, not bloody whiners who threaten to vote repug.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

I think it's very revealing that someone zero-rated my post above.  That means they do not want other people to be able to read it, even though it is a substantive comment.

What this means is that whoever did it is not even a small-d democrat, because they want to suppress the views of people who do not agree with them. The zero-rater is, in short, a thug. It also says something about the kind of person who supports Obama.  Of course this thug represents only a small portion of even Obama's less thoughtful supporters.  But there are enough of them to have driven free speech completely out of some of the blogs, like DKOS.  They would like to do the same here.  And they have had some success.  I used to be a Trusted User but lost it because of people just like this.  I'm okay with that because I no longer put much stock in any of the Internet forums, because they give too much power to thugs.

But the idea that an Obama victory will give people like this thug more power should scare all of us.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

If we do get more reactionary ideologue justices, the Democratic Congress will be to blame, regardless of who is President.

No. You will be to blame, because you helped put the President who appointed those justices in office.

And, sorry, but if you're willing throw our soldiers lives, any hope of a sane foreign policy, any hope of health care reform, and a generations' worth of women's and minority rights under the bus purely out of spite, you're incredibly immature. I don't give a damn how long you've been alive.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:10:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

I you had actually read my previous comment, the answers to what you've said are already there.  May I suggest a class in reading comprehension?  Perhaps some counseling would also be helpful, as you seem to have anger issues when people don't agree with you.  


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Speak for yourself. I am a woman who has spent 25 years in a male dominated business.  I do not need other women to fight my battles for me, I have learned how to do that myself.  Women have held the right to vote for less than 100 years. Many of the early women activists were subjected to forced feedings, jail time, and the loss of reputation and families.  These are the women who opened the door for me. I welcome the sisterhood and shared objectives but strongly repudiate the need for all of us to march in lock step.  That is the most wonderful thing about being an American, we are all free to choose our path, our hero's, and our convictions.  They do not all have to be the same.


by temptxan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

You are also free to make bad choices, as you have done.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

You mean until she wins? Sure, sounds good.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 9)

As someone committed to Obama's candidacy and hopeful for a victory in November that provides increased opportunities for both of these candidates to lead us in a positive direction, I just want you to know that I am reading and paying attention to the frustrations you and other Clinton supporters are voicing at this juncture.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:58:18 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 12)

I appreciate your thoughts.  It's unfortunate that we have to choose between two historic candidates.  Ultimately, I do think that most will come together, somehow.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:00:52 PM EST

If Obama had kept his word... (2.00 / 3)

He assured one and all that he would never run for President during his first term in the Senate. The decision to go back on his word was inherently divisive. Part of the anger is at his decision to force the party to choose between Black and woman. Party leadership has been horrendous in not managing the elections as though they wanted a success without indictment.

They have trashed the party values so severely that I seriously believe that there may need to be new parties  and maybe for a long time before people feel good about the process like we have in the past. If fear for us, now that I have seen the sickness that has gripped the web/media/campaign complex. I think something very dangerous has been unleashed that can't be put back.

There were a lot of things that could have stopped and reshaped what happened, but the people in the best positions to do it didn't.

How Hillary and Bill and Chelsea can rise over this and thrive, I can't fathom. And I certainly don't understand how it is that they still want to work for us and try to make our lives better.  What has been done to them while they tried to help us is unconscionable.


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:08:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama had kept his word... (none / 0)

Please tell me what has been done to Hillary, Bill and Chelsea that is so horrible?  Seriously, when you keep using such emotional words (fathom, unconsciounable, etc) it just makes it sound beyond repair - and for that I would like to know what exactly has been 'done' to them.  thanks


by mariannie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Welcome! Hope you enjoy your visit! (none / 0)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand (2.00 / 6)

The dream of many women, especially older women who feel like they may never see a female president during their lifetimes.

THe problem is that HRC's supporters are not giving enough blame to the campaign itself. The reason she is losing today has almost nothing to do with sexism. Was sexism involved? Of course. But even in the face of any sexism, if HRC did not buy into the notion that she was the inevitable candidate (remember the "it will be over by Super Tuesday), and she prepared for an actual campaign, rather than a coronation, she would be the nominee.
   


by highgrade on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:01:24 PM EST

Re: I understand (none / 0)

Yes, I think it has much more to do with tactical errors and Democrats' own unresolved feelings about the prior Clinton Administration (and a family dynasty) moreso than other factors.  But, clearly those factors were also at play.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (none / 0)

Exactly. If she had wrapped up the nomination at this point you would not be hearing anyone talking about sexism.


by highgrade on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see why this will take a long, long time. (2.00 / 1)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, you may have read this diary... (2.00 / 4)

but you certainly didn't learn anything from it - all of these comments completely miss the point.

I sincerely do not see how "togetherness" will ever happen at this rate.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, you may have read this diary... (2.00 / 1)

What would it take for "togetherness" to happen - short of Obama dropping out and endorsing Clinton (which isn't going to happen)?

Seriously.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A time warp back to democratic values. (1.50 / 2)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:55:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A time warp back to democratic values. (none / 0)

What does this mean?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A time warp back to democratic values. (2.00 / 1)

Oh, maybe...

Counting all the votes.

Respecting women and their issues, being adamantly for pro-choice, with women only making the decision about their bodies and lives.

Going for universal health care.

Supporting NASA.

Supporting SS and not wanting to privatize it.

NOT working with the nuclear industry to weaken reporting regulations.

Do you need more?


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (2.00 / 1)

It's not their problem if they feel like they can stay home in November.


by catfish1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (2.00 / 7)

I'm going to correct you:

Now it's the Democratic Party's problem.  Which means that it's not only Barack Obama's problem and my problem, but it's also Hillary Clinton's problem and the problem of anyone who calls him- or herself a Democrat.

We all have to do what it takes to make sure that the person taking office in January 2009 is a Democrat.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (2.00 / 2)

That troll-rating is completely inappropriate.  Please remove it.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Now it's Obama's problem and your problem. (none / 0)

Uprated for another inappropriate troll rating.  Someone must have a finger cramp by now.


by temptxan on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:39:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (2.00 / 3)

Oh wake up.  Most women who voted for Hillary voted for her because she was and is by far the better candidate, not because she is a woman.  And they are sick and tired of patronizing comments by people like you suggesting that they are too stupid to vote based on the legislative record.  Obama would not even have lasted past January if he had been white or female, because he is not qualified.  His accomplishments are nonexistent and, like Bill Clinton said, the whole story of his one supposed action (a speech!) is a fairy tale.  Google Joe Wilson's piece at Huffington about that.


by PlainWords on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:48:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I understand (none / 0)

Look, I don't comment very often.  This diary and thread have been the best that I've seen in awhile on here.  Actual discourse is occuring between the partisan sides of this primary.  And you are soiling that.  Stop just attacking people.  Please.


by jacen42 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:16:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not attacking; this is educating. (2.00 / 2)


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:57:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 7)

I will vote for the the democrat even if it is BO but my support and by that i mean monies to the BO campaign and other democratic cause would be a lot easier for me to justify if HRC was on the bottom of the democratic ticket.

Look i understand that a lot of BO supporters hate HRC and dont want her on the ticket but i would like them to think about how hard it is for HRC supporter to vote for and support BO.

david


by giusd on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:04:50 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

See, as many problems as I've come to have with Hillary Clinton in the past two months, this is something I really don't get:

Why do you want her to take a step down from the Senate to the VP's office? She is in a position to become one of if not the most influential Senators in the country. And if (God forbid) we do lose Ted Kennedy, she is the country's leading voice on health care. I think she can be far more effective on that issue (and others) from the Senate than from the Veep's office.


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

See to me this is just another excuse to disrepect HRC supporters.  She could and should be the first women vice president.  

david


by giusd on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:56:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

How is it disrespecting HRC supporters to suggest that she could achieve more, and do more good for the country, with a long and fruitful career as a party leader in the Senate than with four or eight years in the shadows of the VP's office?

As my Senator for the last seven years, I think she's done many good things in that office, and I'd love to see her take the tenaciousness she's brought to this primary race right into the Majority Leader's office.


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:43:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

That is the same line given to women in all kinds of clubs, companies, etc.

You know, like this:

Here, little lady, have the secretary or treasurers office. You will do more good there. You don't REALLY want to be next in line if the President has to step down for some reason. Now, don't worry your little head about it, we'll take care of running things. You can do the bookwork and dole out the money, but only according to how WE want it doled out. You don't want to have to make all those HARD decisions, do you? It's too much WORK for you, you little dear. You might get hysterical.

See how that works, and what you are saying?


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Right. Cause being a United States Senator is just like being the "secretary" of the United States government. Daniel Webster, John C. Calhoun, Ted Kennedy, Daniel Patrick Moynihan. The "secretaries" of the U.S. govenment.

You don't want to have to make all those HARD decisions, do you? It's too much WORK for you, you little dear. You might get hysterical.

Yeah, people say shit like that all the time to John Kerry, Pat Leahy, Barbara Boxer, Karl Levin, Claire McCaskill, Bob Graham, Dick Durbin, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd....

Jesus Christ.

Of course, on the biggest decision Clinton had to make as a U.S. Senator, she fucked it up royally. Which is why she'll never be president.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Still saying:

"you don't want to be the head honcho, no way"


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Well, if she wanted to be "head honcho", she should have voted her conscience in October of 2002, instead of following that wet finger she had stuck in the polling wind like Dick Morris or Mark Penn. Maybe she did think the war was a good idea, judging from her idiotic vote on Kyl-Leiberman and her stupid ranting about "obliterating" Iran.

Whichever the case, it isn't about what she "wants". I "want" to be three inches taller and ten years younger. She didn't win the nomination. She lost because she voted for Bush's war. I would love to see her acknowledge that simple fact, and stop playing the victim card.

Exactly what school of feminism is it that teaches that a woman of sixty is not responsible for her own decisions, choices and (in the case of a legislator) votes?


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that supposed war vote again and again and again.

I just don't hold that against her, considering all the other things she has done that were good. She's come out for refunding science, has a whole health care plan, and doesn't want to cut funding for NASA.

I trust her intelligence and grasp of the issues.


by splashy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:09:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

"suppposed"?

Jesus Christ.


by BlueinColorado on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

"See how that works, and what you are saying?"

No. Not really. I used to live in Massachusetts, and I'm quite certain Ted Kennedy has exercised more power and done more good things for his home state and for the country in his 46 years in the Senate than he ever could have accomplished in four or eight years in the White House...maybe even more than he could have accomplished had he won the presidential nomination in 1980.

Ditto for Robert Byrd in WV. And, yes, for Barbara Boxer in CA.

I'd like for Hillary Clinton to be remembered as that kind of senator for the state of New York. I was standing in the crowd at Pat Moynihan's farm on the day almost eight years ago when he introduced Clinton as the candidate for his seat, and I'm pretty sure he would have bristled at any suggestion that his beloved Senate was somehow inferior in any way to the Executive Branch.

And, you know, if being the junior Senator from the State of New York is something Mrs. Clinton sees as merely a consolation prize, it seems to me that come 2012, my interests might therefore be better served by electing someone who actually WANTS the job.

See how that works, and what you are saying?


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Still saying:

"You don't want to be the head honcho, or next in line. You are better in a supporting position."


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Odd...MY Constitution says we have three co-equal branches of government. Yours obviously doesn't.


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Let's see -

Congress: a large GROUP of people, the legislative branch that creates laws.  

The Supreme Court: another group of people, much smaller, that decide if the laws are constitutional and makes judicial rulings.

The Presidency: ONE person that actually DOES things. You know the EXECUTIVE branch? The person that EXECUTES things and is the Commander in Chief of the military?

Sounds like a head honcho to me; as much as WE have here in the US. It doesn't GET any more individual and head honcho than that here.


by splashy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:07:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

See to me this is just another excuse to disrepect HRC supporters

How you read "disrespect" in to what I said is utterly beyond me. And, significantly, not for HRC, but for her "supporters".

I guess I can't fathom the depths of your need to paint yourselves as victims.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

See my post above to see how it sounds to a woman.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What I want (2.00 / 5)

I don't care if my candidate is black, white, man, or woman.  I don't care.  And I understand not everyone thinks like that, and it's fine.  Would I LOVE to see a black president?  Yes.  Would I LOVE to see a woman president?  Yes.  And make no mistake- there's only one party that's going to give that to America.

But what I can't keep tolerating, and I fully give you that you're not directly doing it here, is people that insist on telling me my support of Obama has anything to do with sexism, or Hillary being a woman.  I find it insulting when it's even insinuated.  I've worked my ass off, for years, for abused women.  I've worked my ass off against genital mutilation around the world.  I've worked my ass off trying to educate people about sex trafficking, and how it impacts women around this country, and world.  And people tell me all Obama voters are sexist, and somehow keeping women down by voting for the candidate we think is best???

Was Obama rough on Hillary?  OF COURSE.  And Hillary was rough on Obama.  "Change you can Xerox"?  "Not ready to lead"?  It was a CAMPAIGN.  And a rough one at times, sure.  But I don't think Obama took cheap shots, no more than Hillary did by any means.  I think they fought it out.  And while it's going to the judges, it's pretty clear that unless somehow, Clinton magically gets 70% of the remaining superdelegates, Obama's the nominee.

I fully support any woman (or man) in their right to support their candidate.  But I cannot, and will not, tolerate being called sexist because I chose the candidate that I felt would be the best leader of our nation, and that candidate doesn't happen to be the female.  That is unacceptable, divisive, hate speech, as far as I'm concerned, and any Democrat who didn't arrive here from Drudge would be wise to remember that.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:07:47 PM EST

Change the word "sexist" to (2.00 / 7)

"racist" and re-read what you wrote.  That's what we HRC supporters have felt as long as you have had your own feelings.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change the word "sexist" to (2.00 / 2)

And that's totally understandable.  I don't agree with the racism charges either, not leveled en masse.

But if you read through this site, in particular, and compare the occurrences of the two, you'll see a lot more of one than the other.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you really understand? (2.00 / 9)

That's because this site is where Clinton supporters fled from the ugly racist accusations and sexist attacks on other blogs.  Here was a refuge where we could discuss the rampant unfair treatment of our candidate that we witness daily and not be gang-derided.  And yes, we dared to question the credentials of her opponent, who was unaccountably deemed "presumptive" after Iowa.  Now they've followed us here to practice new strategies to embarrass, demoralize, and dismiss us.  You may think it's a coincidence that that's what always happens to women when they try to gain real, as opposed to token, power.  I don't.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really understand? (none / 0)

I don't think Hillary lost because of her gender.

Do you really think she lost because of her gender?  If so then are you arguing that America is not ready for a woman president?


by hienmango on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:30:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really understand? (none / 0)

58% of Democratic primary voters this year were women. 58%.

This was not a case of a bunch of men keeping a woman down, regardless of what some of the more extreme people here would like you to think.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:14:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you really understand? (2.00 / 3)

I sort of see your point, and I can't agree or disagree.  I've always checked three political blogs multiple times a day- Kos, MyDD, and AmericaBlog.  

I can't speak for all Dems, or all bloggers, or all men, or all women.  Can't vouch for every Obama supporter- as there are overzealous Clintonites all over the place here, there are certainly as many (and likely more) overzealous Obamaites out there.

I also don't want to cheapen what Hillary has done- because I will most CERTAINLY point to her campaign when my daughters ask if they can be president (or, even better, when they DON'T ask and simply declare they will be!).  Her candidacy is historic, there's no dispute, and I think 95% of Obama supporters will certainly say the same.  So don't hate me for saying this:

For most of us, this election is about more than that.

We have had eight years of the worst president in our nation's history.  We have had eight years of unjust and illegal war.  Of economic policies that have left this nation in tatters, and people from coast-to-coast facing foreclosure, unemployment, and skyrocketing cost of living increases, while the rich have gotten richer.  We've had eight years of isolation, and eight years of losing our standing as one of the leading countries in the world.  Eight years of torture and secret tribunals.  Eight years of grown men using the spectre of towers that once stood tall in my home town, and the 3,000 people that died when they fell, as an instrument of fear to keep them in power.

I don't think your candidate has been treated more unfairly than mine.  Have both been treated unfairly at times?  Absolutely.  But that's the way campaigns work, sad to say.  I don't think most Obama supporters have any desire to deride, or embarrass you.  Some have, and they're just as wrong as the 40% of Clinton voters in Kentucky who would rather vote for McCain than Obama, or the 20% who said that race was a factor for their vote for Hillary in the exit polls.  

I don't think that for the vast majority of Obama candidates, they are fighting for him to win because Hillary is a woman and Obama is man.   The same way I don't think most of the Hillary supporters aren't supporting her because she's a woman.  I think they feel their candidate is the best president.  If you think that this is about a woman gaining real, as opposed to token, power, then I'm sorry for you, and I hope that the majority of the voters don't feel the same.  Because this is about fixing this country, and making it great again, and whether Obama or Hillary wins, I was hoping we'd all be on board in the end.  I guess I was naive.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One vote gave Barack an opening (none / 0)

I don't remember where I heard it first: If Hillary had voted against Iraq there wouldn't have been room for Barack to run. There wouldn't have been room for anyone else. That gap gave him a starting point to work from.


by patooker on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What I want (2.00 / 4)

Thank you for everything you have done for women, and I'm sure many others who really needed your help Thank You for speaking out now about how you feel. You make me proud to be a Democrat.
by Jeter on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:29:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This resonates with me as well (2.00 / 5)

Though I do not have the same credentials for supporting women's rights, I was raised by my mother, mostly by herself, and watching and supporting her grow her professional career as a grade school teacher to a Univesity professor and published poet.  I also believe my girlfriend is at least my equal if not far superior to me in many ways.  I went to Law school and graduated along side a female majority of intelligent people.

I chose Barack because of his positions and not based on his gender.  My mother and girlfriend support him too for the same reasons.

I have been back and forth in being graceful to downright incensed with some supposed Hillary supporters.  I think and hope most of this discourse is due to misleading operatives in the system who continue to interject fallacious arguments and muckrackery for the sake of sustaining the divide.  I would hope many Hillary supporters can see through this and not be tempted by the devil.  

And let me make it clear that I do not think any pro-Hillary arguments based on logic, honesty, and reason are trollish, they are welcomed and encouraged, but lately this has not happened.  And attacks against flimsy math and "I'll vote for McCain" could be perceived by a real pro-HIllary observer as attacking Hillary and her supporters rudely and arrogantly.  It is not, it is keeping the discourse honest and fair and protecting the integrity of this site


by KLRinLA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This resonates with me as well (none / 0)

Sounds like your entire family has had health care for your entire lives. That is probably one of the reasons you have the luxury of supporting Obama.

Those of us that don't have health care insurance don't have that luxury. We REALLY need help, and Obama does NOT offer it with his half a health care plan. Clinton does. It's that simple. His plan will fail, and we will have more years of sickness and death caused by a lack of universal health care. I hear it's up to over 20,000 a year now, far more that American have died in Iraq.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I did have a meager health care program, and I (none / 0)

am sorry you don't.  I didn't know Obama's non-punishable health care plan would exclude you, it seems to be pretty universal.  Please explain to me why it wouldn't cover you?

Also, plans can be tweaked and aren't set in stone so if there are some serious errors, maybe that can be adjusted


by KLRinLA on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I did have a meager health care program, and I (none / 0)

The key thing is it will fail, and then the right wingers can point to it and claim that universal health care won't work, that it costs too much.

The only way a plan will work is if everyone is involved. That's the only way to control costs and make sure everyone gets treated.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's pretty weak arguement, (none / 0)

to flat out say it will fail.  No substance my friend, no argument


by KLRinLA on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:53:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's pretty weak arguement, (none / 0)

It's the cost issue. If the young and healthy don't buy in, it WILL fail. The young males are especially bad about thinking they will never need health care, unless they have an accident.

Did you watch the program on C-Span about how the Massachusetts program is coming along? They have had a real problem with the young males, even though they help people pay for the premiums if they can't swing it. They have fines if people don't buy in. Is Obama going to have that? If so, it will be a mandate, just like Clinton's plan, but he isn't going to call it that.

But, hey, I bet you have health care, or you would be concerned about it too.


by splashy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:14:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I cringe a bit at the sexism charge, too (2.00 / 5)

Because it cheapens the support of males like me and females who support Clinton for reasons other than gender.  Yeah, I think I'd like to have a woman president for a change, but, I think she is just a flat out better choice than him regardless of gender.  Although she has the feminine traits he lacks she sometimes appears to have more of the masculine ones than him, too.


by lombard on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which would be... (none / 0)

Upper-body strength?  Doubt it.  A deeper, more resounding voice?  I hope you're not suggesting talking tough on Iran is or constantly claiming to be a fighter is a masculine trait

As for the "feminine" traits you didn't bother to elaborate on, I wouldn't go there.  Gender-based arguments are a real bad idea in either direction.


by corph on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then don't tolerate it. (none / 0)

Don't tolerate it, don't ask for votes, don't worry about winning the G.E.


by catfish1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then don't tolerate it. (none / 0)

I'm not worried about the G.E..  I'm confident Obama will be fine.  But I'm also confident that any Democrat who cares about the country will support him over McCain, regardless of his sex.  


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, wow. THANK YOU so much (2.00 / 6)

for everything you say in this diary.

If I could rec it 1,000 times I would.

As my son who is in England would probably say, "Spot on"!


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:13:36 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 11)

I am not blind to your concerns, and I am sorry that we find ourselves at this point.

I don't like seeing reasonable people feel marginalized.  Seriously, it's unpleasant.

I do want to say, for myself, that it's just not so simple as qualifications for me.  I ask myself how these two candidates would behave and perform should they win, and for me the choice is obvious.  And, for myself, his being male is simply irrelevant.  Likewise her being female.  I know myself, and I know my views.  

One of the things that many of Senator Clinton's supporters admire is her "fighter" persona.  I acknowledge that, and I do not denigrate it.  It is, however, one of my problems with the Hillary Clinton premise, and it simply reinforces why I prefer Senator Obama.

I am tired of treating politics as bare-knuckled boxing.  I know the fault lies more with the Republicans than the Democrats (and I will brook no lecture on the topic), but this year is the best shot I have ever seen, and probably the best shot I will ever see, to try to raise the bar.

I want reason.  I want intellect.  I want civility.  I want nuance.

Senator Clinton possesses those qualities, but she has intentionally presented herself as a more regular person because it helps her.  I'm not saying that this is a bad thing.  It is not, however, what I want.

Setting aside her gender for a moment, there is simply nothing about Senator Clinton's candidacy that rings true to me.  I do not forgive her vote on the AUMF.  

None of this is a poisonous attack on a fellow Democrat.  My reasons for preferring Senator Obama are, I think, reasonable.

I offer my thoughts, such as they are, that you might understand that I'm not coming from a dark place where I'd prefer to keep women in their place.  I simply will not prefer a candidate based on her gender, and I will not avoid speaking my mind because some topics are taboo.  That is not my nature.

I will be respectful with reasonable people.  You deserve that.  Most every Clinton supporter I've ever met deserves it.  The internet, however, is  a haven for wignuts and jerks.  Every campaign has 'em.  I'm not blaming Senator Clinton for some of the idiots who have denigrated her by simply being her supporters.

Please don't hold the worst of Obama's supporters against him.  Any group as big as these (17 million or so each) is gonna have idiots.

Please, forgive us for our failings.  I truly regret them, though they are mostly borne of those who know no better.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:31 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 3)

congrats on a great diary.

i think people relate to this, outside of this primary. at some point or another, we all have this feeling where we cant get a word in during an arguement and feel overlooked or under-represented, and shut out, told to shut up and go with it....

I hope more people come to understand each other, and are more sympathetic to each other, because that is what the democratic party is all about.


by alyssa chaos on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:46 PM EST

You know (2.00 / 6)

When this whole thing started, I supported Edwards.  I am a populist and his message was the closest thing to what I believe as any candidate has mouthed in my adult lifetime.  That said, I was convinced that Clinton was going to win.  Everyone said it, everyone believed it.  

I like Hillary and I was more than willing to pull the lever for her should she win even though I was greatly disappointed when Edwards bowed out.  I felt that the media pretty much scooted his ass out the door because he didn't fit the media storyline whereby a woman and an african american would go head-to-head in the primary.  I will admit, I was a little bitter and I personally didn't care who won.

Then things started changing.  Hillary became less inevitable, the primary felt like an actual competition rather than a foregone conclusion.  Interesting yes, but I really didn't have a dog in the hunt.

As time has gone on, I still like both candidates, although neither with the strength I felt about an Edwards nomination, but heck, they were both okay.  I slightly prefer Obama, but I don't think it is him so much as frustration at the changing rules of the game.  I think that the latter parts of this race, with all the shifting metrics has sort of pissed me off and offended some sense of fairness in me.  I find that the more the rules have changed, the more I root for Obama...weird but true.

What I need to say is that even though I have slowly migrated to Obama as my preferred choice, that doesn't mean that I hate Hillary.  As a candidate, her run would have been historic.  The same is also true for Obama.  I am sure for every person that feels completely deflated about the prospect of their candidate losing, there is another who is finally realizing a life long dream.  This will be true no matter who takes the nomination.

I suppose I am rambling, but what I am trying to say is that it would be nice if everything was a win win, but it is not, which is why most people I know do not like the idea of politics...I think losing an election would feel pretty personal.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:08 PM EST

Well Said (2.00 / 1)

I started with Edwards, then he dropped out. Wavered a while, then went with the candidate with the forward momentum. Obama and Clinton are incredibly close in the substance of their political stances, and both are a HELLUVA lot better than McSame could ever hope to be. But Clinton was FAR ahead and "inevitable", and she's been on a downward trajectory, overall, since the beginning. It's like the more she was in the public spotlight, the further her numbers slid - until we get to now. I like her and respect her, but she just didn't run a campaign that won the Primary by the inarguably screwed up rules.

Sadly, only one candidate can win...


by RNinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

downward trajectory (2.00 / 1)

Like Obama after February...as he has lost battle-ground state primary one after another.  I think by now we are all just talking past one another.  I will read these sites for amusement only. Either you get what this diarist says or not.  And many do not as you continue to argue, tell Clinton supporters we are wrong and why you are right.  Whatever.  Obama will have to earn my vote like Clinton earned it.  I don't give it just because the media and the part select him.  So keep arguing with Clinton supporters, keep telling us why we are wrong...keep talking over us and past us...we will see in November if your approach works


by emmasaint on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

again (2.00 / 4)

I understand where the diarist and the HRC supporters are coming from - i just happen to disagree. I think it's offensive to Obama supporters for HRC supporters to say this is another example of an unqualified male getting a job over the over qualified female applicant. Everytime someone tries to make this argument, I think for many Obama supporters the blinders come on.  


by highgrade on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:46 PM EST

the experience argument (2.00 / 3)

That was my only fundamental gripe about this otherwise thoughtful, well-written diary.

Clinton and Obama both have different types of experiences, both of which I value more than those that have shaped Senator McCain.

However, if we really want to talk about experience in governance, Chris Dodd or Joe Biden would beat them both hands down. Given their early exits from the race, clearly the Democratic electorate looks at many factors beyond just experience.


by emptythreatsfarm on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the experience argument (2.00 / 6)

Hey, thanks for the compliment--my first diary.

As to your concern:
You'll notice that FD used the words "arguably" and "by historical standards."  The intention is not to say that Obama IS less qualified; rather, it's to say that it's within the realm of reason for some to entertain this opinion. In other words, reasonable people can disagree about who is better qualified, and folks who think that person is Hillary have some historical evidence to support that belief. (And you are welcome to share your evidence that you believe BO's the better candidate.) Many think Hillary is, and they will vote for her accordingly.  Many think the candidates are very similar but will vote for Hillary because, all things being equal, they really want to get a woman into the Oval Office.  And there may be some who are voting only on gender as a qualification and want HRC as president primarily because she is a woman.  And of course, the same goes for BO.  He'll receive votes both from those who believe he is better qualified and/or from those who really want to get a black man into the Oval Office.

I hope you do not mind if I also use this spot to clarify (for some other posters) that I do not believe most people voting for BO are doing so for sexist reasons against Hilllary. (In fact, sad to say, I believe that it's equally or more likely that he'll be denied some votes for racist reasons.

We must each ask ourselves, "Do I use/pile on nasty epithets/ugly Republican talking points and death jokes? (Do I have some snarky fun when I can't think of another way to bolster my reasons for liking BO better? Or to raise her negatives as part of a campaign strategy?  Have I objected when I hear this stuff?  What does it mean when I find that I have a deepseated hatred for HRC--could it really be just about her policy ideas and campaign tactics, or is it possible that I have  been infected by societal and or political prejudices,  or by my dislike of some of her husband's policies or behavior, or just by hearing smears so often I've come to accept them as true?  
 I am not accusing any individual here of any of this--haven't conversed with you enough to make that judgment. But I'm pretty sure we're all products of our society at this time/place.  Consequently we are none of us free of all prejudices and bigotry--myself included.

For the record I do not hate or even dislike BO.   He's very likeable: a good speaker with wonderful charisma.  I think he and his campaign have been strategically brilliant--though sometimes in  ways that appear devious to me.  And they work--that's part of the brilliance.  But they don't jibe with the hope, unity and "different kind of politics" talk. It sets the needle on my hypocrisy meter  swinging and when it stops that needle's pointing at "politics-as-usual."  And there's nothing wrong with that unless you're also criticizing your opponent for doing the same thing, while teling your constituents you're not that kind of guy.  

The media's played into this so much, that the whole primary is steeped in weird, personal attacks.  In this climate it would be a wonder if people did't read sexism or racism into some things that were not meant to be sexist or racist at all. So much polarization creates a chasm that's hard to cross. But there it is.  

Gotta build that bridge from both sides...

ANd sorry if typod or nonsensical--too late for me to be coherent...


by ahw on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the experience argument (none / 0)

Hey, thanks for the compliment--my first diary.

As to your concern:
You'll notice that FD used the words "arguably" and "by historical standards."  The intention is not to say that Obama IS less qualified; rather, it's to say that it's within the realm of reason for some to entertain this opinion. In other words, reasonable people can disagree about who is better qualified, and folks who think that person is Hillary have some historical evidence to support that belief. (And you are welcome to share your evidence that you believe BO's the better candidate.) Many think Hillary is, and they will vote for her accordingly.  Many think the candidates are very similar but will vote for Hillary because, all things being equal, they really want to get a woman into the Oval Office.  And there may be some who are voting only on gender as a qualification and want HRC as president primarily because she is a woman.  And of course, the same goes for BO.  He'll receive votes both from those who believe he is better qualified and/or from those who really want to get a black man into the Oval Office.

I hope you do not mind if I also use this spot to clarify (for some other posters) that I do not believe most people voting for BO are doing so for sexist reasons against Hilllary. (In fact, sad to say, I believe that it's equally or more likely that he'll be denied some votes for racist reasons.

We must each ask ourselves, "Do I use/pile on nasty epithets/ugly Republican talking points and death jokes? (Do I have some snarky fun when I can't think of another way to bolster my reasons for liking BO better? Or to raise her negatives as part of a campaign strategy?  Have I objected when I hear this stuff?  What does it mean when I find that I have a deepseated hatred for HRC--could it really be just about her policy ideas and campaign tactics, or is it possible that I have  been infected by societal and or political prejudices,  or by my dislike of some of her husband's policies or behavior, or just by hearing smears so often I've come to accept them as true?  
 I am not accusing any individual here of any of this--haven't conversed with you enough to make that judgment. But I'm pretty sure we're all products of our society at this time/place.  Consequently we are none of us free of all prejudices and bigotry--myself included.

For the record I do not hate or even dislike BO.   He's very likeable: a good speaker with wonderful charisma.  I think he and his campaign have been strategically brilliant--though sometimes in  ways that appear devious to me.  And they work--that's part of the brilliance.  But they don't jibe with the hope, unity and "different kind of politics" talk. It sets the needle on my hypocrisy meter  swinging and when it stops that needle's pointing at "politics-as-usual."  And there's nothing wrong with that unless you're also criticizing your opponent for doing the same thing, while teling your constituents you're not that kind of guy.  

The media's played into this so much, that the whole primary is steeped in weird, personal attacks.  In this climate it would be a wonder if people did't read sexism or racism into some things that were not meant to be sexist or racist at all. So much polarization creates a chasm that's hard to cross. But there it is.  

Gotta build that bridge from both sides...

ANd sorry if typod or nonsensical--too late for me to be coherent...


by ahw on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: again (2.00 / 6)

Since this probably refers to the comment quoted from me, let me just explain.

Supporters of any candidate will tend to think their candidate is more qualified. That's part and parcel of the process of choosing a candidate in the first place.

My point was not to argue that Obama is unqualified or less qualified according to some objective measure.  I'm just saying that many HRC supporters see her as much more qualified than Obama for the job and that's part of what burns us about seeing the first viable female candidate lose the election.

I'm not asking anybody to agree with that assessment of their relative qualifications.  I'm just trying to explain a Hillary supporter's perspective such that you might better understand what we are going through.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: again (2.00 / 2)

Honestly, the only person who I think can heal that is Hillary Clinton.  I'm not saying she needs to drop out now, but I am saying that if/when she does, she needs to say, and mean, "I lost fair and square.  I got beaten by a better opponent."  For the sake of the country, for the sake of the Party, she needs to say that.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree...sort of? (none / 0)

I really hope she does say that she got beat fair and square.  I don't think she has to say that Obama was the better candidate or the better person for the job.  


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree...sort of? (2.00 / 1)

I don't think she has to say he was the better person for the job, or even was the better candidate - but I do think she has to say he ran a better campaign.  If she is defeated, I think she has to admit defeat.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:04:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She can say it (2.00 / 1)

but for many of us we won't believe it.  She will tow the party line - I have no doubt about it.. Because that is who she is.  On the other hand, I don't have to tow any line and I know what I have seen.  


by emmasaint on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:04:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 4)

A most excellant diary.  Your words and quotes are so very true to what I have in my heart.  Those who cannot understand these feelings and your words can't because they have not lived to the depth needed to allow them to get inside of another persons head and know what they feel.  But many, many millions do understand and are experiencing the same thing, and they are not all women.


by Scotch on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:26:07 PM EST

Conversation with my daughter in law. (2.00 / 7)

She is a Hillary supporter but decided on her own a couple of months ago that Clinton was going to lose.  She's not happy about it or excited about Obama winning but she accepts it.

We talked about why Hillary didn't win.  I'll skip the conversation but here's what we finally agreed on.  It's Mark Penn's fault.  And here's why:

After Iowa when the exit polls showed that change trumps experience by a huge margin, the smart thing to do would have been for the Clinton campaign to change course immediately.  What d-i-l and I decided would have been a winning strategy is if Hillary dumped Bill (campaign-wise) as being politics of the past and added Chelsea immediately.  Hillary and Chelsea together say 'Change' as well as or maybe better than Obama.  The two of them could have campaigned together and separately.

Secondly, Hillary should have run as herself...a moderate liberal who cares about people and social issues.  She should not have been pushed into the 'Rambo' role.  It didn't suit her and Rambo is not what the American people want right now.

For months now I, who chose to support Obama when there were only two left to choose from, have been railing at the TV when I saw how Hillary's campaign was packaging her.  I loved Hillary in the 90's and could have easily flipped over to supporting what I thought of as the 'real Hillary' but we saw precious little of that.

Those close to her say she is warm, friendly and genuinely caring.  But the rest of the country weren't exposed to that...instead we got 'I am a fighter', 'I will never quit'.  That's all fine and dandy but it doesn't spell warm, friendly and caring.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:29:47 PM EST

Re: Conversation with my daughter in law. (2.00 / 3)

I am giving you one of the few mo-jo's I have ever handed out since joining MyDD. I am a Hillary supporter and am from Florida so I just can not in all good conscience vote for Obama in the GE because of what I feel were some of his "dirty tricks" down here when we were fighting in the legislature to get  a do-over election. It is against every fiber of my being to tell anyone that their vote does not count. That is the very cornerstone of what our country and the democratic party is based on.

The day Mark Penn was forced to resign was to me, at least the day Hillary's campaign turned a corner.


by mztower on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Conversation with my daughter in law. (none / 0)

Will you vote for Obama when the Florida delegates are eventually seated?


by catalysis on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

what a great diary!  

Not sure when it became almost a rule that you in order not to vote for someone, you had to 'hate' them (and thier supporters).  

I don't remember any Deaniacs hating Kerry supporters.  Are we just more used to it after so many years of GW Bush?  Would we be where we were in the race if it weren't for such low blows?  Maybe we'd still have Edwards in there without the 'haircut' and 'hypocrite' comments ever coming to light.  


by searchforsolidarity on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:34:18 PM EST

Since you seem fairly dispassionate (2.00 / 2)

Could you explain the "bullied/marginalized' thing? I genuinely don't get it.

Yes there has been sexism in this campaign, in the media and in the public. There has also been racism. Al Gore and John Kerry faced dishonest smears from the media as well, many of which are still believed today by wide swathes of the public. Howard Dean was treated as a lunatic. A Clinton supporter on this site called John Edwards the "Breck Girl" today.

That said: Hillary Clinton had as much of a chance as Barack Obama (or Biden or Dodd or Edwards) to win this nomination. Looking at early fund-raising, endorsements and establishment support: More. We all know the saga of Mark Penn and the Big State Strategery.

I myself chose Obama over Clinton when Edwards dropped out because of her foreign policy. For this, I have, on this site and elsewhere in the tubes, been called: a sexist; a naive, star-struck child; a cultist (an almost daily occurance here); an "Obamabot"; etc. I am repeatedly told that I believe my fourth choice for the Democratic nomination is the new Messiah, and I am too stupid to see his faults. (When I was for Edwards, I was both a sexist and a racist.)

I firmly believe that if Hillary Clinton had voted against Bush's war, or even given some indication that she had learned something from that mistake (and Bush's), I think she would have won this nomination without breaking a sweat. So, as odious as Chris Matthews is, as locked in a 1997 obsession with the Clintons as NOKD by the Villagers of Georgetown, I do not see Hillary Clinton as a victim of anything but her own poor judgement, and her inability to break free of a Cold War world-view that is not only inadequate but is actually dangerous in the world we are now living in.

(For roughly the reasons stated above, the "experience/more qualified" argument cuts no ice with me. If resumes made great presidents... Nixon, GHW Bush, Abe Lincoln, etc etc etc)


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:51:51 PM EST

Re: Since you seem fairly dispassionate (2.00 / 2)

I can't speak for ahw, but I'm not surprised to hear someone say they feel bullied and marginalized.

How should a Hillary supporter feel when her campaign is written off as dishonest, delusional, racist, etc?  Or when her supporters are described as just wanting a woman - any woman - or as racist, "low-information," delusional, etc etc etc?  Or when the media shows such blatant sexism?  Similarly, how should a Barack supporter feel when he's described as naive, young, lacking substance, elitist, etc - when she's touted as the inevitable candidate - when someone's publicly branded a Judas - etc?

This campaign has included a lot of bullying and marginalizing on both sides.  So it should be no surprise if someone's feeling that way.  And it should be no surprise that this makes supporters of the losing candidate to jump on anyone else's bandwagon.

I recognize that I may not entirely get why Clinton supporters would feel marginalized and bullied.  So by offering an explanation, I'm not presuming to be a real authority on it.  Clinton supporters can speak for themselves better than I can.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since you seem fairly dispassionate (none / 0)

Typo - should have been "And it should be no surprise that this makes it hard for supporters of the losing candidate to jump on anyone else's bandwagon."
McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since you seem fairly dispassionate (2.00 / 1)

This campaign has included a lot of bullying and marginalizing on both sides.

That's why I mentioned Gore, Kerry, Dean and Edwards. Politics ain't beanbag, as the saying goes. When it comes right down to it, she didn't get as many votes. Nobody cheated, nobody tricked her. She lost.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sexism (none / 0)

John Kerry and Al Gore are white men.  Do you get the difference....there was nothing sexist or racist aimed at them.  They just got plain old insulted.  But ask an AA or a woman with self-esteem and see if racial or gender-based insults don't carry more sting.  


by emmasaint on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:07:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sexism (none / 0)

I'm talking about the effect on voters


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since you seem fairly dispassionate (none / 0)

Or when her supporters are described as just wanting a woman

As to that, a lot of her supporters say it flat out. Fine. I see the inherent good in shattering that glass ceiling. But it doesn't outweigh my fears about her approach to foreign policy.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You said that... (2.00 / 1)

..."Al Gore and John Kerry faced dishonest smears from the media as well, many of which are still believed today by wide swathes of the public..."

and that's certainly true.  Many democratic pundits and writers believe that negative press eroded support for both Gore and Kerry.  So isn't it possible that the dismissive and demeaning gender-based insults that Clinton has endured had an impact?    


by half nelson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:09:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You said that... (2.00 / 1)

as someone pointed out on another blog this morning: People who were never going to vote for a woman weren't going to vote for Hillary Clinton before this campaign started. Similarly, people who believed whatever nonsense about Hillary Clinton people like Chris Matthews spew, have believed it since 1992. I really don't think the sexism in the media changed many minds, perhaps even gave her a marginal sympathy vote.

There was a report in TNR last week, Clinton staffers anonymously giving their reasons why she lost. It was all process and finger-pointing. Not one of them mentioned her foreign policy stances. The fact that they either don't see that (the majority opinion, I suspect) or won't see that as having an impact says a lot about the candidate. She never understood how important that issue still is, to activist Democrats especially. Her sneering contempt for Obama's "just a speech", while in the next breath she praised John McCain, just underscores how out of touch she was with the base on that issue.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's surprising to me how many... (none / 0)

...people admit that gender based attacks occured against Clinton but dismiss the idea that it had any impact, without a shred of evidence.  

Obviously, it is difficult to measure the impact of something like this, but I think we can at least agree that it doesn't help.  It was a factor outside of her control, that she should never have had to deal with.  

Biased media coverage has impacted elections in the past and when the dust settles, I suspect people will recognize that it impacted this one.    


by half nelson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Since you seem fairly dispassionate (none / 0)

I am half asleep now and cant... th..i...nk.  Tomorrow I will give your questions the thought and attention they deserve.


by ahw on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:14:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Scrapper (2.00 / 1)

"It turns out we do admire her after all, yes indeed, what a scrapper!" sounds mighty insincere.

Well, maybe then you'll trust in my sincerity, if nothing else, when I say that her recent displays of energy and determination have only solidified my distaste for her, because I keep thinking how different the party and the country and recent history might have been if this "fighter" had, in any way, manifested itself during her Senate career.    


by BlueinColorado on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:54:28 PM EST

Re: Scrapper (2.00 / 2)

I'll grant you that.  I would have liked to see "Hillary Clinton the Fighter" when the Iraq War Resolution was coming up for a vote.  If she had showed then the tenacity and resolve she's demonstrated over the past few months, she could have led her colleagues to a filibuster the likes of which the world had never seen.  And she would have won my vote in 2008.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So sad (2.00 / 1)

What was supposed to be the most historical primary in the US has devolved into a dog fight.


by hienmango on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:57:48 PM EST

Why would you consider voting for McCain? (2.00 / 1)

Why is Hillary your first choice?

Why is McCain your second choice?

Do you consider them to be similar?  And if you do, how so?

If you don't, how so?

I think you really need to consider these questions because it seems so unintuitive to me that you would support Hillary yet consider voting for McCain, two candidates I think couldn't be more different politically.  Am I wrong to think so?


by hienmango on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:04:53 PM EST

I appreciate your tone, but I have one problem... (none / 0)

She lost for many reasons, among which was the thumb of an appallingly sexist media firmly on the scale during the critical period of the campaign, between NV and Super Tuesday.

While I respect your perception, I have a very hard time accepting that the "appallingly sexist media" is a fair assessment of what happened between these two events.  Two wit, two other events stand out in my mind from that period of time -- particularly:

Two blatant lies by HRC in the NC debate: Obama represented Rezko, and he said Reagan had all the good ideas.

Belittle Gate: "Jessie Jackson won North Carolina".

I have some other events I found pretty troubling, but that's just what I remember during these few weeks.

All that said, don't take this to mean I discount that sexism is alive in well in this country (as is racism -- I don't mean to compare, but how many black senators or governors are there?).  What gets my goat though is this default to it as an excuse for what took place.  Watching Geraldine Ferraro on NBC this morning talking about how she thought Barack Obama brushing off his jacket was "sexist" is not generational, it is knee-jerk.  I realize she has been a horrible surrogate for the campaign, but that's fresh in my mind today.


by Pragmatic Left on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:06:14 PM EST

Re: I appreciate your tone, but I have one problem (2.00 / 1)

Those are my words, so let me explain.

I think the media has been appallingly sexist throughout this campaign.  That wasn't a specific reference to the time between NV and Super Tuesday.

During that period, however, I do think the media played a significant role in Clinton going from +15 in the national tracking polls post NV to basically even on the eve of Super Tuesday.  As I said, there were a great many reasons why the campaign turned around in that critical moment, some of which were clearly blunders on the part of HRC and her campaign.  I don't discount those.  But I do believe the media, at that point blatantly pro-Obama, played a significant role in the reversal of fortunes.  That's just my opinion.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I appreciate your tone, but I have one problem (2.00 / 1)

I agree.  I do feel that to some extent, they were pro-horserace - not just pro-Obama.  But also anti-Clinton and sexist.  

I don't think every female candidate would have been treated the same way she was.  The gloves were already off, IMHO, and have been since Bill was President.  I hope and believe that most women would be treated with more respect than she was.  I guess time will tell if I'm onto something or just full of it.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I appreciate your tone, but I have one problem (2.00 / 1)

I think things would also look a lot different if Obama had been out in front from the get-go (see March and April).  I guess I'm also not convinced, as much as I am that they are lazy, that the media has necessarily been "sexist" by and large.  Sure, there are a few dopes in the crowd, and laziness often drives the media towards the superficial, but I do think there is too little accountability for the candidate herself in this framing.  With regard to the time frame, if we can expand it, I will include 3am, the commander in chief test, "shame on you", he's an elitist speaking to "San Francisco" (her tone on that would have made Limbaugh blush) and "important states" in the list of grievances, just to name a few.  Certainly the coverage of Tuzla was not sexist, even if it was perhaps superficial.  Also, I am quite sure that anyone voting for the AUMF and refusing to apologize for it would be facing a tougher election than Hillary's campaign thought they were in for.  

I really don't buy sexism as a factor in this campaign, any more than it is some sort of sexism (or sex-pride) that has given her such a signficant share of the female vote.  Yes, it exists, but I'm not sure which is the more powerful force.  I would say the same for racism and Obama, with the caveat that the divide grew much deeper after the events of SC and looking at the rest of the elected world in this country, the opportunity even rarer.  What would the opinion of African American woman be on this issue (besides diverse)?

And yes, the anti-Clinton anti-dynasty sentiment was also a factor.  As brilliant as Hillary is (and she is brilliant), she would not be here were she not a Clinton.  This is not to say Bill would not have got where he was without her either.  I guess I just feel a bit sad that so many hopes and dreams have specifically projected on Hillary, because I find her so deeply flawed in ways that have nothing to do with gender.

And I agree with the diarist, it would be patronizing to put a Napolitano or Sebelius on the ticket just to reach those voters, though a case could be made for either on their own merits.  

Hillary's candidacy, nevertheless should make you proud.  In an election with such a strong future/past component, fairly or not, Hillary has proven that a woman can (and will) eventually win this job.  She is far from the greatest potential female candidate this country has to offer, and yet she came so tantalizingly close.  I know it must sting a bit, but in the end, I hope that you are able to derive some pride and solace from this fact.

All that said, once this is conceded (and I think it will be in weeks, not months), we should make every effort to avoid what would truly be a lost opportunity for us all, and that is a third Bush term behind John McCain.


by Pragmatic Left on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ugh (2.00 / 1)

"San Francisco" (her tone on that would have made Limbaugh blush)

so glad to see someone else mention that, after all the nonsense about Donnie McClurkin.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What I don't get is why . . . (none / 0)

you think Hillary Clinton is a fiscal conservative. I don't see views in her policy positions that define her as anything but a fairly traditional Democrat. Perhaps she has a position on balancing the budget, but she certainly doesn't make a big point of that. She spends most of her time describing fairly costly federal programs. Where is the difference with Barack Obama on this point which apparently means a lot to you?


by drmark on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:13:15 PM EST

Good diary but one thing I don't understand (2.00 / 1)

What I especially appreciate about this diary is its ability to communicate on both rational and emotional levels.

But there's an element I don't understand.  I understand the disappointment but I don't agree with the hindsight. It's written from the perspective of May 2008 and suggests, in hindsight that the collision between Barack and Hillary was inevitable, and perhaps should have been avoided.

The primary season started with eight Democratic candidates. Sure, some had better chances than others but they all had a fair shot and the agreement was that it was generally a fine slate of qualified candidates. Should only Obama have been deterred from his "head-on collision" with Hillary? How about Edwards, or any of the other five? I doubt that anyone could have predicted that the nomination developed as it did.  

(To add credence to that thought, who would have expected that MI and FL would become so radioactive? If anyone--including any of the candidates--could have predicted such a problem, then I reckon more people would have tried to avoid it.)

Disappointment was inevitable for seven of the eight candidates and their supporters. And I expect each of them felt their own candidate was the most qualified and had to reconcile why they didn't succeed.  When the race came down to Obama vs. Clinton, it became inevitable that either side would suppose that racism or sexism were predominant factors in the loss.  By that rationality, it's a miracle that they were left standing while the six white male candidates all dropped out first.


by sawgrass727 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:19:59 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

Great diary.  Thank you for pointing out that a couple magnanimous diaries will not make everyone suddenly feel better, and in fact such efforts can only fall horribly flat.

I believe we'd be having this discussion, whichever candidate won.  If Clinton had won, I'd be feeling the same way.  It would be hard to vote for her, knowing that this effectively rewards the worst tactics used by her campaign and anyone who supported her.  I don't blame Clinton supporters for whatever they're feeling.  I would not demand that anyone magically get over it.  

The campaign has brought out the worst in a lot of people, the worst in the media, in the blogosphere, etc.  I hope most of us can get past that, rise above it, and not just be dragged down by it.  That would be really discouraging, and I really want to be optimistic that it's the best in us that will rule the day.

NB - A couple have commented on the line about Obama being "arguably unqualified."  Whether it's true or not, it honestly represents the way many people evaluate Clinton vs Obama, and that's why the quote was included in the diary.  So I hope people won't blame ahw for bringing it up.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:28:02 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

you're concerned about sexism, yet you're willing to vote for a guy that called his wife a cunt.


by AlyoshaPo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:35:57 PM EST

Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (none / 0)

I am more comfortable with McCain than I am with Obama.

Don't get me wrong, I'm working on it. I'm telling myself to be a grownup and vote Obama. But.

McCain did not do that in public. He still appears to respect women more than Obama does.

I'm not saying this in protest, I say it to help Obama: don't begin your speech by saying you sure have a nice-looking wife and kids. That says women are decorative and should sit silently by.

Or just do what you want. But you're turning people off who aren't going to protest, but just silently vote McCain in November.


by catfish1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 4)

what if he had boys?

you're seeing sexism because you're looking at it through a sexism prism.

any husband is proud of having a pretty wife, and any wife is proud of having a handsome husband.

I'm sorry you feel that way.


by AlyoshaPo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 1)

I agree that anyone takes pride in having good-looking partner, spouse, kids, or family.

Women have historically been objectified and evaluated too much in terms of their looks.  So now appreciating a woman's beauty is complicated by that.  It's like walking through a minefield, because you risk evoking all the history of sexism.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly. And Michelle's comments (none / 0)

have been problematic.

1: If you can't run your own house, you can't run the White House.

  1. Not sure if I would campaign for Hillary. I don't like her tone.
  2. When asked if it was significant a woman was running, or if she ever hoped to vote for a woman president? Michelle's answer was a curt: "No."
  3. Saying she'd never been proud of her country until now when dear husband is running. Implication: the Clinton years sucked.

That she sits by in a sleeveless dress and high heels as he said this just makes it worse. It's like zooming back to 1955.

Don't get me wrong: she is attractive as are his kids. I started out really liking her, moreso even than him.


by catfish1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly. And Michelle's comments (2.00 / 1)

I don't have a problem with any of those comments she made.  I don't consider them to be politically calculating, or especially slick either.  Based on what I know of the context - i.e. her life experience, or the specific context in which she made some of those statements - I think they're all justifiable.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well you probably voted Obama (none / 0)

A lot of people have been offended, troubled by these comments.


by catfish1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 1)

Uprated to offset yet another inappropriate troll-rating by catfish.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 2)

I'm pretty sure McCain said that in front of reporters.  If that is, indeed, true, then that counts as "public" as anything gets.

McCains not a bad guy.  I don't even strongly dislike him.  He's just dead wrong for America right now.  He'd have been far more tolerable eight years ago, but the sacrifices to his integrity since then have greatly tarnished him in my eyes.

McCain may, indeed, be the more honorable American than the two Democrats we have to choose from, but however admirable that trait may be, we simply cannot afford four years of his leadership.

He's too much into war for my tastes, and frankly a veteran should know better than that.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 0)

Catfish, you gave me a "one" rating.

Why?

I have to hate McCain now?  I wouldn't vote for him in a zillion years.  Isn't that enough?

I have to hate him now?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:24:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 1)

Catfish is a troll.
Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (none / 0)

<i.McCain may, indeed, be the more honorable American than the two Democrats we have to choose from</i>

Yeah. The way he campaigns against torture and then votes for it!

He sure is honorable.

The way he offered to be Kerry's vice president if Kerry would let him have control of foreign policy (read: Bomb Iran), then campaigned and declared his love for a man he despises when Kerry said no.

He sure is honorable.

The way he left his permanently injured first wife for the younger woman with the rich and politically connected daddy!

Honorable honorable honorable.

His joke about a then thirteen year old Chelsea Clinton's looks?

I'm choking on that man's honorable.

The way Mr "Campaign Finance Reform" lied on financial documents to secure a loan to keep his campaign afloat?

He's so honorable I could puke from it.


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (none / 0)

Ease back dammit.  I'm on your side.

Fine, I didn't toss in enough conditionals for you.

Chill the fuck out.  Now


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, but I don't see how the number of people who hear you call your wife a horrible name makes a difference to how disrespectful that is, or in any way comparable to Obama speaking really briefly about his attractive family.


by bottl4 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 1)

You consider someone calling his wife a c#^t in front of the press to be more respectful than someone taking public delight in his wife and daughters in a moment of triumph?  I express how beautiful I find my wife, daughter, and son on special occasions.  I tell them how good they look to me.  I don't think they find it denigrating in the least.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd isn't it? Yet I agree. (2.00 / 1)

don't begin your speech by saying you sure have a nice-looking wife and kids

You dismiss Michelle Obama, who put herself through Princeton on brains and hardwork, as "nice looking", and you have the gall to say Obama disrespects women?

You are saying that Claire McCaskill, Amy Klobuchar, Janet Napolitano, Jan Shiakowsky, Caroline Kennedy, Kathleen Sebellius and Michelle Obama herself are too stupid to realize that Obama sees them as "decorative", and you want to talk about how Obama disrespects women?

And as to this:
McCain did not do that in public. He still appears to respect women more than Obama does

Yes, we all know that the way someone behaves when they now the camera's on is the true test of character.

(Still waiting for your list of "important Senate votes" that Obama skipped).


by BlueinColorado on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:46:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Reasonable and honest diary.

A few points...

1) Regarding getting passed over for a promotion, isn't it the people who have voted? Did the media give it to him? Did he not play by the rules set forth at the beginning and has won because more people voted for him under those rules?

2) If she had not voted for the war in '02 and then never apologized for it we wouldn't even be having this conversation today. Barack would have never had a chance.

3) If she had even cared to contest the caucuses they'd basically be tied or she'd be winning right now and you'd be telling Obama to get out of the race.

4) I understand and see sexism. But I also see racism. (1 in 5 KY voters said race mattered and 9 in 10 of them voted for Hillary - and those were just the ones that admitted it) Is the first minority president not also a momentous occasion?


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:46:13 PM EST

Rather than ask us what we want. (none / 0)

I would like to ask you:  what do you want?

Because I find that when Obama and Clinton supporters both answer that question, there is more in common than in difference.

It is unfortunate that this primary has been treated as a friend vs foe mindset when in fact we are mostly all working for the same goals and the same ends, we just disagree on how to best get there.

But even though we can disagree on the BEST path, we should not discount the alternative as a bad end.

We need a democrat to win the white house. Period.
That is the only end that matters.  And I don't even care who at this point.


by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:39 PM EST

We can't really process this until its Over- Over. (2.00 / 1)

I don't think any of us will be able to fully process the often conflicting logic and emotion of this campaign until it is all over. Over-Over like MI+FL resolved + the supers making their choice clear.  This might not happen until the convention.  
When it is all over, we will each have to take a deep breath and make decisions about supporting and/or voting for the Dem nominee.
by sharpfork on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:51:50 PM EST

Re: We can't really process this until its Over- (none / 0)

I agree with most of this.  But we really need to make a decision as a party before the convention, and I think Hillary will do the right thing and bow out in early June.  Of course, if she wants to press on to the convention, that's her right, but I think it would be a serious gift to McCain and I don't think she'll do it for that reason.

Once she drops out, it will be over, and time for processing.


by OaktownDad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

I don't care that it's magnanimous, I still am going to start posting in support of Clinton's fight even though I could not support her in the primary due to her war vote.  

We go round an round on the intertubes about this because 95%+ of us who read and comment care deeply about out country and want the best qualified person to lead.  The other 5% are GOP trols pretending to support one side or the other and spewing pure crap.  

Both campaigns played rough, both campaigns tactically choose what arguments to make based on the demographics they thought they could win, and both campaigns have valid arguements to make to the super-delegates as to who should win this thing.   Let em do it.  Let it play out.

Just remember, on the nets we can really only speak for ourselves.  

Just please, Hillary supporters, think of the reasons you supported her in the first place, and ask yourself if those noble goals and aspirations are served by a McCain presidency.


by cooptimo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:08:36 AM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Health care is my big issue. More Americans have died for lack of health care than have died in Iraq. It's up to at least 22,000 a year. That's a LOT of sickness, suffering and death.

Obama will NOT give us universal health care with his plan, Clinton will. That's the deal breaker for me. His plan WILL fail, and we will be set back another 4 years. We need a LEADER that will make it happen, not someone that will compromise with the Repubs, which means no go.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:23:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 7)

Get out of here troll.

You could've at least hidden your trolliness better if you didn't have that username.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:14:03 AM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 3)

On my Rec list. Very well thought out and presented the views of many of us very well.


by mztower on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:29:16 AM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

totally agree - fab diary


by tornsneaker on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (1.00 / 3)

This is a great diary. I won't switch parties or radically change my political views. However, I will never vote for Obama and I have no problem voting for McCain. I see my local politicans and state politicans and they are nothing like Obama. All of their ideas are well thought out, they are all experienced, and none of them has ever run a bumper sticker campaign. My senator Sherrod Brown is 100 times better than Obama.


by bsavage on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:31:37 AM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 3)

I have a hard time believing this is a sincere statement.  Sherrod Brown rocks, and I don't know how someone paying attention could appreciate him and McCain at the same time.  


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

There are a lot of fair criticisms of Obama, but saying his policies are not "well thought out" is really hard to justify.  He's got very detailed, proposed policies available on his web site, backed by key subject matter experts.  Perhaps you may disagree with some of them (e.g., lack of requirement that every individual purchase health health insurance even if it is available to them) but it's simply not fair to suggest that his policies are shooting from the hip.

It's your choice not to vote for him if you don't want to.  But please, after the heat of these primaries wears down, take a moment and view him and his policies with fresh eyes and give him a fair hearing.


by OaktownDad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well (none / 0)

of course we don't want you to do the unthinkable.

But then you ask us to remain sincere.

Your choice.


by redwoodsummer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 12:59:57 AM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

I agree that the media is terribly sexist. I don't think that is why Hillary lost though. If she had opposed the Iraq war from the start, voted against authorizing an illegal, immoral war, I believe she would have won the nomination by a landslide. It was opposition to her vote that galvanized the opposition to her nomination among grass-roots Democrats, myself included. And she didn't come around to opposition to the war (except on how it was being conducted) until after a majority of the American people had come to oppose it. I think a large majority of Democrats are very open to a woman president, but it has to be a woman whose values we believe in.


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:37:43 AM EST

Wow, (2.00 / 2)

Here in this thread we have our choices:

Thoughtful, sensitive and effective communication on the part of the diarist.

Maybe not so effective communication in the comments.

Seriously, which do you chose?

Thanks for the diary.


by luckymortal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:38:17 AM EST

Re: Wow, (2.00 / 2)

Totally agree.

Some of the comments were quite on point and helpful and moved the discussion forward.  Many, not so much.


by OaktownDad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 3)

HR'd by an Obama supporter for that user name.


by luckymortal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:39:40 AM EST

We may get neither, so true. (2.00 / 3)

I still find myself wistfully thinking that if Obama had waited America could have had them both, and now at best might get one--inevitably disappointing a huge swath of the Party, and--maybe neither.  

Great diary, so well said.


by catfish1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:04:09 AM EST

I'd like to give you one simple number (none / 0)

58%.

That's the percentage of the Democratic primary electorate this year who were women.

58%.

I'd like to see someone who's blaming Hillary's loss on sexism square their claim with that simple fact.


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:23:17 AM EST

To clarify (none / 0)

I'm not saying that there was no sexism directed at Hillary by the media. There's no doubt that there was, just as there was racism directed at Obama.

I'm just asking, how can sexism be responsible for Hillary's loss when 58% of the Democratic primary voters were women?


by Angry White Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:25:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd like to give you one simple number (none / 0)

Young women have not experienced the full brunt of sexism, so they don't recognize it as much. They are fawned over because they are young, fertile and nubile. It's isn't until women reach their 30's and 40's that they start experiencing it to it's fullest, when some males start to lose interest so treat them the way they really think about women. I know I didn't get it. As a blue-eyed blond I didn't realize just how much nicer men were to me when I was younger.

Notice it's young women that support him, and don't see the sexism as much? The older women know the score a lot better.

Oh, and notice I don't say ALL males, or even MOST males. Just the sexist ones, like we have seen in the media. So don't all you males get all defensive, please. It's entirely possible, maybe even probable, that I'm NOT talking about you.


by splashy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

I just want to say that this was a great diary.  The thread below it was a great discussion as well.  I just hope that anyone who doubts Obama continues to doubt him IF he is the nominee...  AS LONG as they vote against McSame.  The whole point of a Democratic President is that we can get our values pushed forward, but still hold their feet to the fire.  With McBush, there is a good chance of attacking Iran.  If nothing else, this means a draft.  F*** that.  Anyways, just wanted to say, a quality diary.


by jacen42 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:35:56 AM EST

"our values"? They're gone. 3 of 4 know (2.00 / 2)

We need to start over.  Take the democratic values and build a real democratic party on them. How long has it been since the old party represented "our values"?  When they impeached Bush and tried him for treason and war crimes?  When they dismantled the assault on the Constitution and put it right.  When Obama declined to vote for Bushes judges? When  they defunded the war?  When they reregulated predator lenders and major polluters and oil companies and tried to stop global warming and delivered health care and stood up to the Republicans and did what was right, according to our values?

The real democratic party has progressive ideals and champions the invisible and protects civil rights and worker rights and thinks smart about economic development and lifting the education and opportunities of the populace and protects immigrants and seeks justice and champions the powerless and stands for equal treatment, equal justice and equal opportunity and uses the national revenue for the national good and protects the national treasures and supports higher education and the arts and science and leads through making choices that make the people proud and lifted up.

A real democratic party would do what was right and just and expect the politics that flowed from it to be positive and enabling and rewarding.  We would never, ever dream of disenfranchising voters and not counting every vote.


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:35:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How can you be anti-war and pro-Hillary? (none / 0)

It amazes me that people can be so passionate against the war, want to try Bush for war crimes and end up voting for the most hawkish of all the Democratic candidates, Hillary Clinton. She voted to authorize this war! She voted against the Levin ammendment which would have slowed the rush for war! She makes remarks about "obliterating Iran". She votes for the Kyl-Lieberman ammendment which gives Bush ammunition for committing still more war crimes in Iran. How can you possibly vote for a woman who has enabled Bush's war policies and be so unsupportive of a man who opposed the war from the start and who says we need to change the American mindset which sees violence as the first option in dealing with problems.

Please explain this to me. I am totally bewildered.


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you read what SHE said in floor speeches (none / 0)

and in discussions about the issue you would not be amazed.


by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

i hear you.  I think I speak for many Obama supporters, though, in feeling like she wasn't more qualified.  Barbara Boxer would have been more qualified than Obama, but not Clinton.

And that's really the rub.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:14:52 AM EST

Blame Hillary (2.00 / 1)

If she took the stand that the majority of Democrats in Congress took... against Bush's war... she'd be the nominee. Instead, she signed on. That, and her arrogant, incompetent campaign killed her chances. I don't argue that sexism is not a factor. I do, however, argue that the above were larger factors, and that Obama has some equally bigoted obstacles that he's had to confront as well.
Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:51:22 AM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Agreed: it was always about the war for me and all Clinton had to do was say she was sorry for being fooled by Bush, but she never did and I waited and waited

Vote for more war if you want it


by fightbull on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:20:12 AM EST

Abandoned, not bullied (2.00 / 3)

Excellent diary.  Best I've ever read here.

Here's where my party healing is stalling.  

The Obama campaign may not have put anything out there that was sexist but the media sure did -- not just the one-liners but the early obsession with her "likability", her voice, her laugh and her appearance.  Anyone still in the dark on this should spend half a day on MediaMatters using the search term "Hillary Clinton".

All those "liberal lions" and celebrities who came out early for Obama -- the Kennedys, Oprah -- and the party leadership -- Dean, Pelosi, Edwards, Gore -- SAT ON THIER HANDS and did not make statement one (if they did I missed it, please link) condemning the scorching sexism radiating from the media and the GOP candidates at the time.

On the blogs I was being told sexism was a dead issue in the most insulting terms possible, but it was the party leadership, including Obama, that seemed to reinforce that notion.  They sat back as if things like "iron my shirt" and "how do we beat the bitch" were perfectly harmless. ( when we can only imagine how they would have reacted to "shine my shoes" and "how do we beat the n......")

I kept waiting for a party leader (who wasn't a member of the Clinton campaign) to show up on a news show decrying the sexism from the media and it took a SNL skit to finally call any real attention to it.   In the meantime and since, those same stalwart Democrats and proud progressives who flaunt their liberal voting records and outspoken female spouses stood mute as if sexism really doesn't matter all that much (when the target is one particular woman we don't like so much).

It's as if the leadership of the party was content to take the media bashing of Clinton as a freebee in their desire to see Obama nominated and the Clintons sent back to Arkansas. And in so doing they accomplished nothing in setting new boundaries and standards to shield future female runs for the highest office.  

I'll work towards party unity and Obama election but only because I feel I have no viable alternative.  As the diarist so eloquently put it, feminism isn't all about reproductive rights and I won't be patronized with "you'll get your woman president just not this one".  The party has demonstrated to me an ugly tolerance of sexism when it suits it's purposes and principles of convenience.  I feel I don't know or belong in my party of 35 years, all the Pelosis and the Sebelius's be damned.

It will be a great challenge to forget being kicked to the curb no matter how many pats on the head now that I'm needed in November.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:31:31 AM EST

Re: Abandoned, not bullied (2.00 / 1)

And when Obama was unfairly singled out and asked to account for and denounce everyone from Bill Ayers ro Jeremiah Wright to Cobra Commander, which of these same leaders stood up for him?

Nobody. Because they didn't want to take sides during a primary.

Again, if "the party" was so hellbent on Obama winning, why did they endow her with a 100 superdelegate lead from the beginning, put all of the big regional machines like Rendell/PA behind HER, and refuse to break for Obama en masse despite him having an insurmountable lead  since February?

Never mind. I'll start a diary.


by Reeves on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:10:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Abandoned, not bullied (2.00 / 1)

Great post and sums up my feelings as well but BO supporters will never understand what you have to say because they hate the clintons and want some new clinton free party.

david


by giusd on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please don't misrepresent BO supporter views (2.00 / 1)

I do not hate Hillary Clinton. I do dislike Hillary Clinton, primarily because I feel like she enabled Bush's war policies by voting to authorize his war (and even voted against the Levin ammendment which would have at least slowed the rush to war). She did not turn against the war until after the majority of American people did (except to criticize Bush and Rumsfeld tactics in the war, which even McCain has done). If she apologized for all this I would feel better towards her. But instead she makes inflammatory remarks about Iran, votes for the Kyl-Lieberman ammendment, at a time when we are in serious danger that Bush will attack Iran.

In spite of all this I would vote for Hillary Clinton if she were the nominee, because she promises to pull out of Iraq and because she is a strong progressive on domestic policy. But every other Democrat running for the nomination was better on foreign policy than she is.

I would love to see a woman president. But right now I would love to see a man president, Barack Obama, who believes that we need to change the mindset of Americans that beligerence is the first response to problems in foreign policy. To me that is much more in keeping with the spirit of feminism than are Hillary Clinton's views. And I do consider myself a feminist.


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please don't misrepresent BO supporter views (2.00 / 1)

I am just checking to you think Kerry enabled Bush's war too?

david


by giusd on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please don't misrepresent BO supporter views (none / 0)

Yes I do. That is why I was very unhappy that he got the nomination. I think it is also what ruined his campaign because he had no good explanation for it.

It is interesting that about half the Democratic senators voted against the authorization. But of those who had presidential ambitions or were running for re-election only one had the courage to vote against the authorization, Russ Feingold. I think that most of the senators who voted for authorization did so because they thought it would benefit their own political career, not because they really thought it was the best thing to do. That is why George W. Bush timed the vote to be just before congressional elections. If he waited until afterwards there would have been a lot less pressure on the Dems to vote for the resolution and I think many more would have voted against it (or maybe they still would have caved - we certainly have seen a pretty cowardly bunch of Dems in Congress since they took the majority).


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Was sexism present?  Absolutely, however I think it was less than it could have been if Obama hadn't been the one competing with Clinton solely.  If it had been a white male, I believe sexism would have become even a bigger issue.  Being an AA Obama knows how it feels to be treated unequally and would have more of reason to make sure the campaign was run on ability rather than gender or race.

If it was Edwards, Biden, Dodd who ended up being the person to compete with Clinton for the nomination, I believe sexism woud have been even more rampant.

The truth is there hundreds of ways that Clinton could have won this nomination, I can count on one hand the chances Obama had.  It comes back to how her campaign was run...she spent too much money early, didn't have enough ground troops for the caucuses and was out of money after Super Tuesday.  This falls squarely on the people who orchestrated the strategy...The frustration of the results, for Clinton supporters, should mostly be aimed directly at Mark Penn and crew.....


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:56:52 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

Was sexism present?  Absolutely, however I think it was less than it could have been if Obama hadn't been the one competing with Clinton solely.  If it had been a white male, I believe sexism would have become even a bigger issue.  Being an AA Obama knows how it feels to be treated unequally and would have more of reason to make sure the campaign was run on ability rather than gender or race.

If it was Edwards, Biden, Dodd who ended up being the person to compete with Clinton for the nomination, I believe sexism woud have been even more rampant.

The truth is there hundreds of ways that Clinton could have won this nomination, I can count on one hand the chances Obama had.  It comes back to how her campaign was run...she spent too much money early, didn't have enough ground troops for the caucuses and was out of money after Super Tuesday.  This falls squarely on the people who orchestrated the strategy...The frustration of the results, for Clinton supporters, should mostly be aimed directly at Mark Penn and crew.....


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 01:58:20 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 2)

I support Obama, I appreciate your diary and just rec'ed it. You are right, Obama supporters who wish to be friendly with Clinton supporters are in fact (often, not always) very awkward and do not sound at all genuine.

It seems to me that you mention several things which make the current situation difficult for you.

One is, you're not sure you agree with Obama's political lines. It has often been said that Obama and Clinton are very close politically. I don't believe that is the case. I think there are strong differences, and an Obama presidency would be very different from a Clinton presidency. This is why I support Obama (even if, of course, I don't vote in November. No-one seems to have qualms about 60 million Frenchpersons being disenfranchised!) To me the fact that Obama was always and consistently against the war, said, plain and simple, 'the US do not torture', and says the US have to negociate with its enemies, is a very compelling reason to support him. I think he will and can put an end to the madness. I am not at all convinced that Hillary would. There are other political issues, such as Health Care for instance, where I agree that Hillary's position is better (in my opinion). I am not sure that it is realistic in the US context, but you know better than I. Still I think peace with imperfect universal health system (which may be improved in time) is better than war with a perfect universal health system. I don't mean to imply that Hillary will not stop the Iraq war, but I don't think she will radically change US foreign policies (that is, restaure them to normal, from the madness they have become under GWB).
In any case I think it would be best if people made their choice on policies. I can understand that you adhere to Hillary's policies, not to Obama's. I don't know where you stand. Only you can decide!

One other is of course the depth of your commitment to Hillary's cause. I do not have anything to say about that... Except that probably if Obama was in Hillary's place right now I would be pissed off and I would feel like not voting for Hillary in November (and be happy not to be in a position to do it due to my disenfrenchisement). And Hillary's supporters (some of them, but I would see only those) would make it worse. (I sometimes wonder if BO's campaign shouldn't offer 'Mars and Venus' to its supporters ;) May I suggest that you be better than I (your diary is encouraging in that respect) ;)

One third is the racism vs sexism stuff. Well, I'm male and white (and French), so it's easy for me to say it, but I really think it would be best to decide once and for all that those two cancel one another and avoid thinking in those terms, because really it leads nowhere. This is about human beings. This should be about human beings, and the only way to make it so is to think in terms of human beings. I really like it when you say this: African Americans are voting for BO in droves and I don't have the slightest problem with that, whether for qualification or racial reasons or both. Of course they want to see a capable person like themselves occupy the highest office in the land, who wouldn't?

Long, boring, probably patronizing post I'm afraid.

by french imp on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:27:44 PM EST

A lot of good points, but here's where I disagree: (none / 0)

The question of "qualified" isn't clear cut here.  I agree that one way to see this election is as Clinton being more qualified.  But there are plenty of other ways to see it.

In the real world, especially when you are talking about a very high level position, questions of "qualifications" are particularly complicated.  Years of experience, for example, isn't always a trump card.  And how you measure those years of experience is quite debatable - total number?  Number in the same job?  Number in a similar job?  Two very different people can do the job well in quite different ways.

If amount of government experience is what earns you the Presidency, Biden, Dodd, and many others should be outraged right now that voters didn't value that.  But I can make an argument that Clinton deserves the nod over them because her experience is different and brings something else to the table.  And I can reasonably believe that Obama deserves my vote over Clinton because the quality of his experience will strengthen the Presidency in ways I value.


by femlaw on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:28:14 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (none / 0)

First, there is a discourse disconnect here.  There are some fairly aggressive folks who fling demands for logic/math/proof left and right.  Yet it frequently seems to me that the challenge for "proof" is more about obfuscation and deflecting people's opinions by tangling them up in arguments about minutiae than about having a discussion.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more.  From what I've read, many posters simply ignore requests for factual support for their claims in the form of a simple weblink or direct quote.  Similarly, when facts are posted to directly refute claims made by some diarists, the posts (and the facts contained therein) are quickly ignored.


by pablocruz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:53:12 PM EST

Re: What Do You Want? (2.00 / 1)

Wonderful diary.  I can't give up the dream either--and we don''t have to.


by linfar on Wed May 21, 2008 at 04:55:08 PM EST


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