Undeclared Superdelegates Don't Like "With Us Or Against Us"

Yesterday, Hillary Clinton threw down the gauntlet on the issue of a holiday for the gas tax, asking members of Congress, "Are they with us or against us"?

Apparently members of Congress -- and perhaps more importantly for the race for the Democratic nomination, Democratic members in their roles as superdelegates -- are not taking this ultimatum well, joining with the consensus of energy experts and economists opposing the Clinton-McCain plan. According to The Hill's Jared Allen and Jackie Kucinich, the House leadership, most members of which have not endorsed in the presidential race, are calling the plan "DOA", or dead on arrival. Specifically, both Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer have spoken on the record as to their opposition to such a move.

But it is not only the Democrats' congressional leadership that is staying away from endorsing the Clinton-McCain plan. Take, for instance, unpledged superdelegate Mark Udall, the congressman from Colorado who is the Democrats' presumptive Senate nominee in the state and who also has a background in energy and environmental policy. A release from Udall's campaign reads as follows:

Yesterday in Indiana, Hillary Clinton challenged every member of Congress to go on the record with a position regarding her proposal to temporarily suspend the federal gasoline tax, and state whether they were with her or against her. Senator McCain has offered the same proposal, despite experts from all sides declaring that this plan will not actually lower costs for drivers.

Today, Congressman and Senate candidate Mark Udall responded to the challenge:

"There is no issue I have spent more time on in my public service career than working for real, responsible change in our energy policy - the kind that breaks our addiction to foreign oil and puts us on a path to greater national security, a stronger economy, and lower energy costs for our families.   There is certainly no question that families are hurting with the soaring cost of energy and need relief.

"The so-called 'temporary gas tax holiday' that Senators Clinton and McCain propose won't deliver this needed relief.  This will not create the economic relief they say it will, because prices will continue to rise until we address the real source of this problem.  We do need to provide immediate relief for families hard-hit by spiraling gas prices, and we can do that by demanding the President stop adding to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. This will ease the production crunch that is causing these skyrocketing gas prices.

"Senator Clinton claimed yesterday that I either stand with her on this proposal or stand with the oil companies.  To that I say: I stand with the families of Colorado, who aren't looking for bumper sticker fixes that don't fix anything, but for meaningful change that brings real relief and a new direction for our energy policy.  We can't afford more Washington-style pandering while families keep getting squeezed.

"It is exactly the kind of short-sighted Washington game that keeps us from getting real results to our energy problem.  Experts across the ideological spectrum agree that it will increase the deficit, drain money away from Colorado roads and bridges, and hurt the environment, all without actually making prices lower for drivers."

Looking at a study from the American Road and Transportation Builders Association (.pdf), a three month suspension of the federal gasoline tax would cost roughly $12 billion in revenue for infrastructure but would also cause the loss of over 300,000 jobs. This would include $96 million and 3,351 jobs for Colorado. For reference, it would also cost Indiana $183,722,596 in transportation money, as well as 6,390 highway-related jobs, and cost North Carolina $203,319,748 in federal highway funds and 7,071 jobs. All of this for a plan that would likely do more to pad the profits of big oil companies than it would to lower the actual price at the pump, while at the same time potentially increasing gasoline usage, thus detrimentally affecting the environment.

With numbers like these, perhaps it shouldn't be such a surprise that Democrats on Capitol Hill -- both in their roles as members of Congress and as superdelegates -- aren't biting at Clinton's challenge, and that, what's more, Clinton herself is reportedly toning down the language of this ultimatum.

Update [2008-5-2 17:42:30 by Jonathan Singer]: Some say that I should mention that there is a difference between Clinton and McCain on this issue. I think it's a fairly meaningless one. McCain says that he would pay for the gas holiday through deficit spending. Clinton says that she would pay for the gas holiday through increased taxes on oil companies -- something that would not have any chance of passing through the Congress, and even if it did would not pass with a veto-proof margin to override President Bush's opposition to such a move. Given this set of circumstances, Clinton either has to pay for this policy through deficit spending (like McCain), through cutting off funding to the highway trust (which has terrible ramifications, as mentioned above), or simply not having the holiday. So while there may be some daylight between Clinton and McCain on this issue, it's really small, and not so much that it would be wrong to call this the Clinton-McCain plan (particularly when both of them are using similar talking points to hit Obama on the issue).



Display:


Re: Undeclared Superdelegates Don't Like (none / 0)

It is a bad idea to quote George W. Bush, unless you're doing it to shame him or the Republicans.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:51 PM EST

Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

because it would also include a windfall PROFITS TAX on oil and gas.. something I don't think anyone except for them disagree with.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

That has no chance of passing and getting signed into law this summer.

And it's still not a good policy, since you can't ensure that the tax reduction will be passed along to consumers.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

The windfall profits part would achieve a loud thumping veto from Bush without the possibility of an override... whereas the gas tax holiday would pass...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

Bush cannot veto part of a bill.  We do not have a line-item veto in this country.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (2.00 / 1)

your right

thats why he would VETO the WHOLE BILL


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

Does that outcome bother you, if both halves of the bill are bad?

From a political standpoint, it would certainly not be a bad thing to be able to beat the Republicans over the head with a windfall-profits tax in an election year.  That said, no one claimed the Democrats in Congress know what they're doing.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

What would likely happen is that the Republicans would try to force a separation of the proposals... that way Bush could veto one but sign the other...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

Yes, but fortunately we control the Congress so that wouldn't happen.

Let's go back to the original proposal by McCain, which is typical Republican "vote for us, we'll hand out free money!" bullshit.  Much to my dismay, that sort of messaging seems to work out quite well for the GOP.

Now, there are two strategies for combating this.  The first is to do as Obama has done, to explain the complicated reality behind the viscerally appealing proposal, and to call out the cheap pander for what it is.  Now, if this sort of response worked, we'd probably have a better country.  And Mondale probably would have been elected in 1984 after he promised to raise taxes.

The other strategy is to co-opt the Republican strategy, but include a condition that you know they'll never agree to.  The idea of a windfall-profits tax, as you probably know, has been kicked around by the Democrats for some time.  By imposing this condition, when the plan as a whole falls apart, you get to say "sorry folks, the Republicans killed it because they couldn't let their precious oil companies pay a penny more."  And you've defused all the Republican attacks about how those mean Democrats don't want to let you pay less at the pump.

I think both strategies are viable.  Obama's is more wholesome, while Clinton's is more cynical but also more effective historically.  If the Democrats were willing to let the proposal rise or fall on the issue of a windfall-profits tax, they sure could score a lot of points against the Republicans in an election year.  Maybe they're worried about what upsetting the oil companies would do to their fundraising.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Proposal REVENUE NEUTRAL (none / 0)

Do you think this low credibility woman can get this passed?  The American people, including smart folks in government and the private sector are laughing at her little silly scam...She is not only NOT credible on anything, but she is now looking super foolish in the eyes Wallstreet and the world!


by Hope Monger 2008 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:06:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Undeclared (none / 0)

Funny in any other year democrats would be behind this proposal but i guess this year we do whatever BO says.  Sad.  I guess dems care more about big oil then everyday workers.

david


by giusd on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:22 PM EST

Re: Undeclared (2.00 / 2)

I seriously doubt that Democrats would be in favor of this proposal in any year...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Undeclared (none / 0)

When have Democrats ever been in favor of this idea?

Never.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Undeclared (none / 0)

actually, they tend to get drilled by Republicans for proposing to RAISE the gas tax to cut down on consumption...  Kerry got hammered for that I believe....


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Has anyone forgotten that a lot of people drive (none / 0)

to work or for their livings and this rise in the price of gas is so much that they are sometimes unable to feed their families.

Its the fact that its gone up so quickly that is killing people.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Has anyone forgotten that a lot of people driv (2.00 / 1)

I agree that we need a solution, but this is not a solution....

The one thing we have going for us is that gas prices tend to fall the Fall of an election year...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: please fact check (none / 0)

architek

what makes you think you will actually save money besides the fact that Hillary says so? Really what you are doing is falling for it. Would you be opposed to getting a NON BIASED analysis on the effects on of this  Tax Holiday?

You don't have to Listen to Obama's proposal or take his word for it but please  do yourself a favor and do some research on it Please

You seem like you know what you are talking about when it comes to their Health plans so I am sure you can do some more research into this tax Holiday and how it will do more Harm than good.  


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Useless pandering ploy. (none / 0)

My wife, who drives a couple thousand miles a month MIGHT save $50 over the summer.

Meanwhile, we lose billions for roads, which are already terrible.

Not a good deal for most Americans.

Useless pander, at best.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, but even Paul Krugman doesn't like it.... (none / 0)

And he is definitely not in the tank for Obama.

The gas tax holiday is a cheap ploy to appeal to people's greed.  Until she issued the ultimatum I always assumed Clinton's backing of the "gas tax holiday" was half-hearted.

I'm glad to see Democrats standing firm against it.  I wish Clinton opposed it, too.


by Homebrewer on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Undeclared (none / 0)

let me get this straight because Everyone
not just Obama  BUT EVERYONE from non BIAS economist, fellow democrats, and republicans. EVEN HER OWN SUPPPORTERS INLCUDING SUPERDELAGATES THAT ARE WITH HER SAY IT IS A BAD IDEA AND YOU WILL NOT SAVE MONEY

let me ask you a question? The only Person that thinks its a good idea is JOHN MCCAIN who she praised on numerous occasions

WHY DO YOU THINK SHE IS RIGHT ON THIS ?

AND CAN YOU SEND YOU SHOW ME 1 NON BIASED ECONOMIST THAT SAYS THIS IS A GOOD IDEA ???

But you probably can't because you are a low info voter that think Hillary knows it all

please do yourself a favor and do a little research on this. Don't take my word for just try to get a NON BIASED viewpoint on this please

Hillary is taking advantage of you she is betting on the fact that you will not look into this to get votes  please  just look it up and make a logical decision on your own  


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Me too... (2.00 / 4)

To be honest, it bothered me too...  there are some phrases that still sting... this one, thanks to Bush, is one of them....

Oh, and forcing Democrats to vote for or against a tax cut in an election year....?  Well, it would simply be ridiculous but expected coming from McCain or another Republican...  but coming from a fellow Democrat?


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:06:31 PM EST

Expected. (2.00 / 1)

I was trying to argue the danger in Clinton's posturing with this issue (with Canadian girl was it?) but many people here will have none of it. It's a stupid pander dressed up as policy to help average Americans, when in fact there's a 99% chance that it will benefit big oil more than anybody.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:18 PM EST

Re: Undeclared Superdelegates (none / 0)

Props to seeing through this crap.  This is nothing but pandering.  No really solution.  There's no way this gets passed anyway and it's dropped after the primaries.

I recall our current President using the "either you're with us or against us" line a few times.  


by chewie5656 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:07:39 PM EST

Re: Undeclared Superdelegates (2.00 / 1)

Maybe Hillary was under the impression that Republicans would be the ones put on the spot by this proposal.  I dunno.  I certainly don't like to see any Democratic candidate demagoguing other Democrats to try and score points; the time for running against Congress expired in 2006.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:09:33 PM EST

Re: (none / 0)

I don't understand what's so wrong about giving the people some relief for a few months this summer from such high gas prices.  At least Hillary is recognizing how much people are suffering because of these high prices.  Anything would help.  20 cents or so off a gallon of gas is alot to me.


by karajan72 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:12:26 PM EST

Re: (2.00 / 1)

Well, unfortunately, it is a mirage in the desert idea....  whatever savings you might have reaped will be absorbed by the oil companies... they will simply blame lower supply and higher demand...

We do need a solution, but this is not a solution.


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 2)

Please read above:

Looking at a study from the American Road and Transportation Builders Association (.pdf), a three month suspension of the federal gasoline tax would cost roughly $12 billion in revenue for infrastructure but would also cause the loss of over 300,000 jobs.

Do you want YOUR job to be one of the 300,000?


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

Hillary's package includes hitting up the oil companies to pay a surcharge to make up the revenue.  No lost revenue, no lost jobs.

Whether this will pass or not and whether it's a good idea or not is open to discussion.  But the notion of lost jobs seems to be a red herring, at least from the proposal that Hillary is pushing.


by markjay on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

lets just say if by some miracle
she gets the windfall profits tax  passed
what makes you think the Oil companies won't raise their prices to cover the difference?
"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Right! So lets eliminate Corporate taxes.


by Judeling on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

History has proven time and time again that when corporations face increased costs, it is passed on to the consumers.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Undeclared Superdelegates (none / 0)

I don't know why the hell she is pushing this plan. It is a bad plan.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:15 PM EST

poor policy process (2.00 / 3)

This also demonstrates Clinton's poor use of policy decision-making. It's reminiscent of the Mayberry Machiavellis as described by some Bush administration insider-critics in which you find a policy that you think is good politics and then never vet it for its effectiveness.

Of course in this case experts have spoken out to say that it would cause more problems than solutions and the money probably won't even get to consumers, but she thinks it will be helpful for her in IN and NC, so she's pushing it.

No wonder she never read the NIE. Getting information would have only interfered with her what she thought as her best political move.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (none / 0)

Snooze.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (2.00 / 2)

Yeah.

I guess you figure a good policy process is too-oo-ooo boring.  How dull it is to actually figure out if a policy is worth doing.

I bet that NIE was dull.  But maybe she should have read it.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ouch. (2.00 / 1)

You win my vote for "smackdown comment of the day."

The other negative policy-related aspect to this is that she showed little to no consultation or cooperation with other Senators before trotting it out.  They're used to that from Bush, not a fellow Democratic Senator.


by McNasty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch. (none / 0)

My answer is below. Care to read it?


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:43:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What, where you said this: (1.50 / 2)

Snooze, snooze.

No, that's probably not it.


by McNasty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (2.00 / 1)

she also did not read the NIE on Iran's Nuclear weapons progress  If she did she never had made that "Obliterate Iran" comment


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

poor leadership w/Congress (2.00 / 4)

One thing it demonstrates is her lack of leadership abilities when it comes to dealing with Congress.

Would this be her strategy for congressional relations should she become president?  Well, we saw how poorly she managed that with health care under Bill's administration.  And it sure doesn't look like she's learned anything since.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:13:45 PM EST

Re: poor leadership w/Congress (2.00 / 1)

This strategy works for the Republicans...  they praise loyalty and reward it...they also punish disloyalty.  Democrats do not do that... makes them much harder to bully...

Well, that and Republicans are wimps... that makes them easy to bully too....


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor leadership w/Congress (2.00 / 2)

Yep. Pelosi and the others won't just salute smartly and march after a Democratic president if they think the ideas are bad.

Didn't she learn anything from Bill's first two years when they had a Democratic Congress?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:18:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor leadership w/Congress (none / 0)

Well, the one thing she has going for her... Congress' approval ratings are usually the lowest in the political spectrum....

Now, that said... some of the Super delegates, whose votes both of them need to finish this thing are members of Congress...  it also sends a bad message regarding down-ticket electability.... Hanging members of Congress out to dry does not do your coattails any favours whatsoever....


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor leadership w/Congress (2.00 / 2)

The Clintons have a terrible political deaf ear when it comes to superdelegates. Calling them Judas or saying they're not from their home state or getting donors to try to pressure the DCCC.  

Superdelegates have pride and are going to react badly to such techniques.  

They are going to think, "Do I want this person in the WH? Do I want to deal with someone like that as president?" And the answer will be - nope.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor leadership w/Congress (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.  Which is why this ends by mid-June no matter what happens on Tuesday.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And remember, (none / 0)

the SDs overlap significantly with DNC voting members.  Who voted in Howard Dean to run the DNC with strong support, and nearly universally have been very pleased with his leadership and priorities.

Senator Clinton continues to distance herself from that group in numerous ways.  I think a large number of the remaining SDs are unlikely ever to support her.


by McNasty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

poor policy process (2.00 / 1)

This also demonstrates Clinton's poor use of policy decision-making. It's reminiscent of the Mayberry Machiavellis as described by some Bush administration insider-critics in which you find a policy that you think is good politics and then never vet it for its effectiveness.

Of course in this case experts have spoken out to say that it would cause more problems than solutions and the money probably won't even get to consumers, but she thinks it will be helpful for her in IN and NC, so she's pushing it.

No wonder she never read the NIE. Getting information would have only interfered with her what she thought as her best political move.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:17:07 PM EST

Re: poor policy process (1.00 / 0)

Snooze, snooze.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (2.00 / 2)

A brilliant analytical reply.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (none / 0)

The gas tax holiday plan is a good plan. It would save middle-class families precious dollars during this period of never-before-seen high gas prices. Additionally, the highway job industry is cyclical anyway. There are times of feast and times of famine. So to publish a "loss" of jobs is a bit disingenuous in an industry which experiences ups and downs in employment to begin with. Like I've said before, $3.50/gallon of gas versus $4.00 means a lot to people who are at the point of pawning everything they can get their hands on just to afford gas!


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (2.00 / 2)

The federal gas tax is .18 a gallon, not .50 a gallon.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (none / 0)

Whooo, people won't be saving as much! A pox on thee, Madame Clinton for wanting to actually save the folks money.

There is also the stark possibility that gas prices would be driven down by unforeseeable market forces during the gas tax holiday.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"stark possibility" (none / 0)

Outstanding.  Let's ignore all the economists and roll some dice.

I don't want to continue that particular Bush leadership style, thanks.


by McNasty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (none / 0)

Except that, as Pelosi points out, there is zero that Congress can do to make sure that the cut is passed along to consumers.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (2.00 / 3)

There is also a stark possibility that magical unicorns riding ponies will start coming out of the nozzle if Clinton gets this passed and they'll all wave their magic wands and we'll have cheap, clean solar power and all the terrorists will fall in love with America and we'll all be rich and good looking and sit in a meadow filled with wildflowers holding hands and singing folk songs forevermore until the end of time.
But I won't bet on it.
ооо
by Mumphrey on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: poor policy process (none / 0)

If the gas tax is eliminated for 5 months all that's going to happen is the oil companies will raise their prices, taking the "tax break" away claiming low production.  Hence putting that money into the pockets of big oil and taking it away from consumers and the infrastructure budget.  Makes  the oli companies richer and our infrastructure weaker...BAD IDEA..


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

$3.50/Gal. Vs. $4.00/Gal makes a difference (none / 0)

Well, if the tax was fifty cents, that would be applicable, but it is only $0.18

It will save the average family about $30 over the course of 18 weeks.

It is a crappy plan, any way it is parsed.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:00:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

J Singer, truthteller (2.00 / 2)

Goddamn Jonathan! How can you keep coming on this site and making sense? Why no pro-Hillary screeds like everyone else?

Seriously though, thanks for all you are doing to retain some balance on this site.


by wasder on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:20:01 PM EST

STOP THE HANDWRINGING (none / 0)

Undeclared Superdelegates Don't Like "With Us Or Against Us"

The same can be said about extorting SDs to choose Obama. Why is there so much hand-wringing to end the primary? What is Obama hiding? Are you afraid once we get to know him we won't like him? Then shouldn't the primary play itself out? He doesn't have the strength, stamina or conviction to be President.


--donna darko. I don't read or respond to comments. There's too much hate and misogyny here.
by nonwhiteperson on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:25:33 PM EST

Re: STOP THE HANDWRINGING (2.00 / 1)

Extorting? Please explain.


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: STOP THE HANDWRINGING (none / 0)

17 months of a primary...Cmon....


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:49:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: STOP THE HANDWRINGING (none / 0)

hiding?  excuse me, but I see BHO all over the place, making speeches, conducting town halls, meet and greets, etc.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good idea? (2.00 / 1)

With this proposal, Hillary didn't reach across the aisle, she JUMPED across and found a seat...


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:25:55 PM EST

The numbers you site (none / 0)

Would seem to ignore the fact that Clinton has called for filling the gap created by her plan with a windfall profits tax on the oil companies.  It is a fact that has been consistently ignored today by Barack Obama's surrogates all day.   They have also consistently ignored the fact that Obama himself supported gas tax holidays earlier in his career.

I agree that suspension of the gas tax will have negligible impact on our energy problem.  But the people in this country are fed up of a government that seems out of touch and tone deaf to their kitchen table problems.  In his opposition to the tax holiday, Barack Obama continues to reinforce the perception that he is out of touch.  

Clinton's plan is not irresponsible because she offsets it with other revenues.  It is part of a very thoughtful and comprehensive energy plan that she has outlined.   Certainly better than the Bush/Cheney plan that Senator Obama supported.  In contrast, McCain's tax holiday proposal does not seek to fill the revenue gap.   Senator Obama may also be taking a responsible position, but one that continues to leave the public with the perception that the government has not heard its concerns.


by activatedbybush on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:27:40 PM EST

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

So you think the US should adopt a policy as a symbolic gesture, despite the fact that people will continue to pay the same amount anyway and there will be less money for construction jobs and infrastructure repairs?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

Hillary's plan delivers immediate relief, as opposed to what the blogger clamors for, which is the slacking off of our additions to the petroleum reserves. It would take half a year for any slight change in the price of gas to be reflected in our lessening of our additions to the reserves. Again, my girl, Hillary, knows what to do in the short term to help people now!


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

The modal estimate is that this saves people $30 over the course of the summer. And that's if the cut was passed along to consumers, something that can't be mandated.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

I don't know where you get that number from.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

I don't know where she got that number either.  Cause it's much less than 30 bucks for most people.  I only save 8 bucks.

Gas Tax Holiday Calculator



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

I have posted this link several times and have yet to see one HRC supporter post his or her savings.  Hmm, wonder why......


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

I know math is hard for Hillary supporters so let me help.  18.4 times total gallons of gas used within a three month period.  I recommend using a calculator.


by Tunk on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

Math.  I know you guys don't really do that well.  Sorry.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:24:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Psssst (1.50 / 2)

"as opposed to what the blogger clamors for"

You appear to be a "blogger" yourself.

Try not to fall into the trap of smearing everyone who comments on the internet.  It's not very useful.


by McNasty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

Big oil will just raise their prices nullifying the tax break...It will go into their pockets...


I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?
by hootie4170 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

See, the thing about proposing a tax to make up for the lost revenues is that then you don't have less money.

Hillary's proposal is that there would be a tax holiday offset by a windfall-profits tax on the oil companies.  Now, you may think the Republicans would never agree to the latter, but that doesn't entitle you to take half of Hillary's proposal and act like it's her whole proposal.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Photo ops as policy (none / 0)

Whatever will make a good soundbyte and score political points goes. That's what's driven Bush's 'planning'. Just what we need, more of the same. Lets blow the billions we extract from the oil companies on a political stunt that won't save anyone money. Then try and explain why you are re instituting the tax when the Republicans call to make the tax holiday permanent.

While we are pandering let's obliterate Iran and bust up OPEC. Maybe she can borrow GWB's cowboy hat and get herself a ranch in Arkansas to burnish her new image.


by hankg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The numbers you site (none / 0)

Would seem to ignore the fact that Clinton has called for filling the gap created by her plan with a windfall profits tax on the oil companies.

It's ignored because it's a pipe dream.  What are the chances that Clinton can get that bill passed and signed into law in a month?  Basically zero.
by ChrisKaty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:05:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"With us or against us" (2.00 / 3)

They're now definitely against Hillary.

I hope Obama sends her a thank you note for herding the congressional supers his way even faster.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:38:53 PM EST

OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (2.00 / 1)

oh wow obama's supporters are so touchy and upset because sen. clinton wanted a (gasp!) yes or no answer from lawmakers. and who said the left wasn't tough?


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:45:54 PM EST

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (2.00 / 1)

Way to work with Congress!  Just make demands.

Well, I remember when Bill Clinton said he'd veto any health care bill that came to him if it wasn't the one his wife put together.  And where did that get him? No health care reform at all.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (2.00 / 2)

Actually it's the LAWMAKERS themselves who are upset(and they are ALL superdelegates)


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

if u ask me this "do-nothing" congress needs a kick in the pants.  or are u happy w/ how Reid and Pelosi buckle to Pres. Bush every session?


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

I'm happy that Reid and Pelosi know it is about DELEGATES


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

I don't think you'll be so happy when McCain whips Obama when polls show he'd have lost to Hillary.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

as long as you guys vote for obama, that won't happen


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

sorry but right now it's Hillary or Nader (if BHO wins the nom) for me.  maybe you guys should stop alienating us so much, ay?


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

Then I hope you're very happy with McCain and an unending war in  Iraq and a new one with Iran....oh wait....I'm confused.......was it Hillary who siad the words Obliterate Iran?


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

only if they launch a nuclear attack on the only true democracy in the middle east and one of our greatest allies. unlike rev. wright's clips, these words of hillary's were REALLY taken out of context.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (2.00 / 1)

fine, I hope you're happy with McCain as president - whatever he brings.  You'll have showed us BHO supporters.  

you guys aren't a picnic either but that doesn't mean I'm going to let a bunch of internet nobodies dictate how I want the country run.  if you have a problem with Obama - fine.  if you have a problem with obama supporters and decide that is sufficient not to vote for him...


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hey Blue Doggy crap (1.00 / 1)

how old are you?

I thought Clinton supporters were supposed to be part of the "older" demographic?

I find it quite hypocritcal for you to post
***

"OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa!

oh wow obama's supporters are so touchy and upset because sen. clinton wanted a (gasp!) yes or no answer from lawmakers. and who said the left wasn't tough?"

**

**********

but then you are not so tough when you post ?

*****

"sorry but right now it's Hillary or Nader (if BHO wins the nom) for me.  maybe you guys should stop alienating us so much, ay?"
*
******
I don't know what your problem is but obviously you are not the brightest bulb

You MY FRIEND ARE LACKING 'Testicular Fortitude'


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

you really don't get it ?

ok what proof would you need to show you that Hillary is taking advantage of you ?

besides the superdelagates think its a bad Idea

her OWN ECONOMIC ADVISOR  is saying its a bad idea? Do you realize the this BLIND support is the same way we were lead to war by bush ???
and she is doing the same thing.

look just research this from a non biased source thats all I am saying...please


"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'
by wellinformed on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

honestly, the tone is fine.  she could have asked them with a pretty please.  would not make this anymore dumb of an idea.

even if you accept that gas tax holiday is a good thing, at the very least you have to concede that it is controversial.  hillary knew it was controversial and not just between obama and herself, but controversial between a lot of democrats.  

so why force the hand of a ton of congressmen right before an election year?  democrats now have to say on the record that they did not support a tax cut.  it is either a brilliant move by hillary because she thinks that democrats have no choice but to support this - or it kills her campaign if she doesn't sweep it under the rug.  the rhetoric in her speech is not the main issue.  its the bill itself.


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (2.00 / 1)

those of us who commute 30 miles each way to work will appreciate this break in gas prices to be made up for by the tax on Exxon etc.  Obama's supporters are well-off or in school and don't understand the real working people like me, Hillary does.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

lots of people commute to work, including myself.  and I hope that savings gets passed on to you since there is no guarantee that that will happen.  (this is the main argument, BTW)

of course - when there is this much debate over an issue, still trying to figure out why you force the hand of a bunch of democrats.  because you think you're right even though lots of people think you aren't (including your favorite NY Times economist)?  

if you like tax cuts so much, just vote republican.  I bet McCain will continue to hand out $600 rebates.


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

if the nominee is BHO, I just might vote republican! thanks for the advice!


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (2.00 / 1)

yup you showed me.  or showed your true colors.  i guess there are a lot of republicans on this blog


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

you aren't doing your side any favors, you know. Are all of hillary's 15 million votes from undercover republicans too?  if you guys quit morphing our candidate into Pres. Bush you might not have so many defections and a Pres. McCain in January. Are any of us morphing Barack Obama into Robert Mugabe?  That's just as crazy as morphing Hillary into Bush and u don't see us doing that.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

seriously though, who cares what i say or kos says or anybody else.  you are a smart, discerning guy or gal.  you can see through the morphs.  pick the guy who you think is better.  if you legitimately think its mccain over obama, then go for it.  if you want tax cuts, a war in iraq, more power to you.  but don't vote based on what rabid fans of obama say.  

and calling you a republican wasn't based on saying that hillary was a republican or president bush.  she's clearly not.  it was based on you saying that you'd rather vote for mccain than obama.  i think that, given their positions on issues, it is a fair litmus test for whether you are a republican.  if i said i'd rather vote for nader or nobody or mccain than hillary, you could say the same thing about me.


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

you seem like a smart person too, so I'm sure you understand that the losing side in this very close, historic nomination fight will be heartbroken and devastated, so don't kick us, put our face in the dirt, rub salt on our wounds then expect us to enthusiastically jump up and embrace you.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

our side could also lose.  

and i will be just as upset and I might have a bad taste in my mouth when I vote for Hillary...

but I will vote for Hillary.  

Maybe you'll vote for Obama and you're posturing but I really don't like suggestions that Hillary supporters won't vote for Obama - especially when it is just based on what happens on message boards.  

and not to compare battle scars, but there would be just as much salt in my wounds.  look to the right at some of the recommended diaries and comments underneath.  some of those comments are just as mean.


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

well it's a shame isn't it that instead of trying to douse the flames, markos poured more gas then banished half the kingdom then like the wicked witch sending her flying monkeys after Dorothy and co., has his minions attacking us Hillary supporters over here every day?  so much for being a "party leader", ay?


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fun exercise (2.00 / 1)

30 mile commute each way
equals 60 miles
multiply by 5 days equals 300 miles
divide by an inefficient gas mileage of 15 miles per gallon and this translates into 20 gallons of gas per week
Multiply by 18 cents and we get the grand total of $3.60 per week of savings ! or less than  $15.00 a month for 3 months !

This all assumes that the gas companies pass the savings on to you :)


by KosTexasliberal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:24:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fun exercise (none / 0)

$15 a month will pay for my monthly Netflix fee! I'll take it!


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fun exercise (none / 0)

netflix?  times are tough...


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fun exercise (none / 0)

yeah they are, which is why I can't afford to go to the movies anymore and now just wait the 3 months till they come out on DVD


by BlueDoggyDogg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fun exercise (none / 0)

Again that assumes the very generous oil companies pass on %100 of the savings on to you. They are well know for being generous like that


by KosTexasliberal on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fun exercise (none / 0)

even if the gas companies give him the full $15, have we really done anything good?  I understand the working man's plight and every little bit helps but this is a plan promoting gas usage.  you, the working man, might not drive any extra than than what you have to (being the good green democrat that you are), but certainly other people will.  I bet there's a better way for the american people to end up with $15 over the summer than risk more pollution and more oil dependence.


by ab03 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG her tone upset me whaaaaaa! (none / 0)

I commute 31 miles each way to work.

Her idea is dumb. There's not much debating it. I am under no illusions about what the oil companies will do. They will jack their prices up right back to where they were.

And the windfall tax? I don't know the existence of any drug with enough powers of hallucination to make me believe that Congress will pass such a bill and the President will pass it within the next month.

The idea is dead and it seems as though it's coming back to bite her.


by PSUdan on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:34:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Undeclared Superdelegates Don't Like (2.00 / 1)

I thought HRC was the candidate who can get things done. Meanwhile, she's turned off congressional members of her own party.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:51:53 PM EST

Depends on what the definition (none / 0)

of "it" is.  [Ducks head]


by McNasty on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

*Giggle* (none / 0)

My word! Are you implying that HRC engages in sophistry?