Jersey Girl NAILS It

You might remember Kristen Breitweiser, one of the 9/11 widows who hounded Congress until they got their head out of their collective backside and actually looked into what happened on September 11, 2001 (though some say they stopped short of finding all the facts).  She's been following this election closely and has spoken out from time to time.  Well she hit the nail on the head with this one and takes it to the Superdelegates with everything she's got.  

My admiration for this woman knows no bounds.  She pulls no punches in this one and says what a lot of other folks have been thinking for quite some time now.  I probably wouldn't have built McCain up as she did, but the rest of it is right on...

You Broke It, You Own It - Obama Style

Those who are responsible for putting Democrats in the broken place we are in right now with regard to Barack Obama had better own it to the end. Leave those bumper stickers on and wear those campaign pins until the bitter end folks because YOU OWN IT. And people are going to want to know whose to blame.

And as for the superdelegates, just an FYI, we have the list with your names, you will be held accountable on Election Day and beyond, too. This time around, everybody's going to be looking for accountability.


Flash forward to Election Day 08. Can you imagine the backpedaling going on when it comes to explaining how Barack Obama -- the Democratic nominee by math not by sensibility -- loses key states? What will those pundits say? ... What will they use as their rationale as to why they reasonably expected Obama to win those states in the general? Will they be driven mad with their math and just keep repeating that it wasn't their fault -- it was math's fault? (Or will they fall back on the usual suspect and blame it on Hillary?)
snip

In August when the Republican attack ads unroll with a screaming, ranting, raving, railing, and dancing like a chicken lunatic Reverend Wright juxtaposed with an angry Obama with an outstretched pointing finger overlayed by Obama's voice saying that he can't disown Wright anymore than he can disown his grandmother, will the superdelegates feel good and justified about their decision to try and kick Hillary out of the race before she won a state like West Virginia or Kentucky? Will those same superdelegates apologize for their bad judgment in thinking a candidate who lost 40% of the Democratic vote in a state primary -- a mere 5 months before Election Day -- should even still qualify to be the best candidate in a general election?

I've been asking this for months but no one's ever been able to answer me... Just HOW do Axelrod and company plan on responding to those ads by the 527s when they roll them out?  And you know they're coming guys.

I really don't think "hope" and "change" will work in the general election.  I mean calling other Democrats racists puts us back on our heels and we back down.  We actually care about racism and many of Hillary's supporters were in the thick of the fight for civil rights.  But do you honestly think the rethugs will stop in the face of those charges?

Just exactly what is David Axelrod's reasoning as to how Obama -- the candidate who "says" he represents change and "outsider politics"-- will fare against the well-documented record of a maverick like McCain who has actually spent his entire career bucking the political system and truly enacted change? Will Obama change his campaign theme? Yikes. Is the Obama campaign strategy being unveiled when Obama states that "a vote for McCain is a vote for Bush"? Because if that is the Obama campaign's idea of a "winning" strategy against John McCain, we are in serious trouble.

snip

... so many Clinton supporters are reluctant to vote for Obama if he becomes the nominee. It's not because they are bitter. It is because they chose Hillary over Obama for two real reasons: experience and definition.

Obama can't gain experience in the next 5 months.

True, Obama can gain definition -- that is if he starts defining himself today and stops leaving his self-definition up to others -- namely the likes of Reverend Wright and Karl Rove.

To me, it's the difference between buying cereal for the picture on the box rather than the ingredients on the nutritional label. Clinton supporters want to know what they are eating for breakfast--they don't get swayed by the fancy packaging that often hides the sugar and artificial additives hiding inside. They check the label. They read the ingredients.

We know what we are getting with Hillary Clinton. We've read the label that has been on the box for years. And, yes, we may not like everything about her, but at least we know what we are getting when we support her. There are no surprises, no baggage left unexamined. Hillary has been in the public eye for years. She has a record that can be followed and seen in plain view. We know who she is. We know that she is a hard worker and a smart fighter who will never give up. And we have a pretty good idea of what she would do as president. Perhaps most importantly though, we know that she wins vital states that have proven to be essential to winning the WH.

Now as we all know, it is the responsibility of the superdelegates to use their independent judgment to do what is best for the party and most likely to ensure victory for the Democrats in November.  As Superdelegates, their judgment is crucial in cases like this where the leading candidates have equal support from the electorate.  

They're the only ones who can pull us back from the brink of what I'm certain will be a sure loss for Dems in November if they throw this thing to Obama.  Guys there are just too many gifts to the rethug 527s out there and you know as well as I that they'll do their level best to exploit each and every one of them to their advantage.

Hillary is a proven deal closer and a fighter and she'll fight for all of us when she is in the White House.  She's consistently won the electorally rich states such as New Jersey, New York, California, Texas and Florida and the swing states such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Mexico and Arkansas. In every election since 1980, it has been the lunch bucket voters and increasingly the Hispanic voters who have been most likely to vote GOP, and these groups have, in primary after primary, shown a remarkably strong support for Hillary.  And the decrease in the margin of women voting for the Democratic presidential ticket may have been the single most important factor in the outcome of the 2004 presidential election.

At this point, neither Obama nor Hillary can win sufficient pledged delegates to secure the nomination.  This means the superdelegates have the power and obligation to decide who will be the best, most electable candidate for our party.  Obama and his supporters must recognize that he did not win the major (swing) states and that his victory in states that are highly unlikely to vote Democratic in the fall make Hillary the stronger and therefore our strongest candidate in the general election.



Display:


Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.82 / 45)

She's earned the right to be heard without being trashed.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:36:08 PM EST

Try telling that (1.91 / 12)

to the commenters at HuffPo. The hatred, vitriol and downright disrespect there was appalling.

I think some people forget that they are attacking other human beings.


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:39:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Try telling that (2.00 / 14)

Instant reflex with some of them I suppose.

Shame really - the 9/11 Commisison didn't get at all the answers but we woulnd't know squat if it hadn't been for her and the other widows.

Or have they forgotten that?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 8)

have been thrown on the trash-heap during the course of this campaign?


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 4)

that has happened on both sides...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (1.00 / 4)

No kidding. D'you think if Clinton really knew who she was, and saw some of these things she wrote, and was questioned about it, she wouldn't throw Alegre right underneath the bus?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:45:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (1.00 / 7)

Probably not -- she needs shrill supporters as well.  But if "alegre" gained a wider audience than a few dead-ender goofs, she would be under the bus in an instant.


Can't rec or rate -- next username, please!
by neeborMolgula on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:00:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 6)

Bill Richardson, for one.


by freeing zeus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its like Vietnam.. (1.60 / 5)

Once they have committed, they can't turn back.

Even though they know it is wrong, they have to ride it through. They don't realize that this isn't the time. This isn't the man.

This is suicide. This is betrayal, not just of the poor white people that everyone is trying to latch to associating with Hillary, but really all of us, because Obama is not the progressive he says he is.

Ive always suspected that the Dems and the GOP were too alike that they were run by the same kinds of cynical people who let families be destroyed by the thousands because of politics and dogma.

For those who believe healing the long pain of black people in not having had a President to call their own, I understand how you must feel. But imagine if we pick Obama and he does not win, when will the next time the Dems pick a WORTHY black man be? Not for a long time. Don't you think its better to wait until a real progressive comes along, rather than blow this ON SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T EVEN WANT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE?

I saw a movie last night that had a 'fixer' character in it, and I couldn't help but think that Obama is like a 'fixer' - a damage control, risk management type executive who comes in to bad situations (for corporations, in this case, the healthcare industry) and creates a one in a million situation where they can weasel out of a long awaited reckoning. Throws a trial, fixes a ball game.. etc.

Like that character in Pulp Fiction who comes in to help clean up the body in the back seat of that car.. you know what I mean? Crisis management. Risk management, damage control, etc.

This is it. Obama is that fixer. For them, not us. Thats not good.

In my opinion, from the beginning, he was NOT meant to win, he's - like Jim Cooper in 1994, meant to get Hillary and her healthcare out of the race and prevent a brand new entitlement. Or at least that was the original plan.  

Now, there's a chance of him winning, but will he be the person so any people think he is? Maybe, who knows, maybe he will rise to the occasion. But I don't think he has it in him to really be that person. I think that he was and still is a fixer for the right.

Its true.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:10:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its like Vietnam.. (2.00 / 1)

" ON SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T EVEN WANT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE"

AHHHHHHHH!!!!

Hillary's plan leaves out millions...


by Terrance Manley on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:25:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Its like Vietnam.. (2.00 / 3)

"They know it's wrong"

Wow--talk about projection!  

FYI, Gallup shows Obama up 16 over Clinton today.  16.  So much for "they know it's wrong."


by deminva on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:23:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lol (1.00 / 5)

Richardson is no progressive hero.  He is a weasel who wants a job.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lol (2.00 / 4)

Just because he threw his support to Obama is no reason to trash a Democrat that served President Clinton, not cool.


by temptxan on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lol (2.00 / 1)

Teresa... I realize from having read many of your posts that you apparently missed the lesson in, if you can't say something nice, keep your mouth shut... but if Richardson had endorsed Clinton you wouldn't have anything but praise for him and you know it.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 7)

Ted Kennedy


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:02:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 7)

John Edwards


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 6)

Nancy Pelosi


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 7)

John Kerry


"Not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who's embarrassingly superior to me." -- Jon Stewart, 4/15/08
by JulieinVT on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 7)

NARAL


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll concede that Kennedy is... (none / 0)

...a liberal icon; but "Impeachment-is-off-the tabel" Pelosi?  Not in my book.  NARAL?  They endorsed Joe Lieberschmuck and Linc Chaffee over Ned Lamont and Sheldon Whitehouse, and sat on a war chest while Alito was confirmed, doing zilch to try to prevent it.  It was shocking to hear democrats praisng them and loudly proclaiming that they were sending them money, just because they endorsed Obama.    


by half nelson on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:58:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 5)

John Lewis


by Tatan on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 5)

"How many progressive heroes have been thrown on the trash-heap during the course of this campaign?"

Yeah, it's shameful that they're being dismissed as "elitists."  Silly me, I thought that was a wingnut slur for progressives.


by Rumproast on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:58:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 3)

It is a wingnut slur.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 6)

I know that, CDG.  I'm still amazed that a Democrat (and her supporters) used that slur against a fellow Democrat.  It's incomprehensible to me.


by Rumproast on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:59:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 3)

I know. Scary, ain't it?


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:21:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 3)

Howard Dean


by ogre on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How many progressive heroes (2.00 / 0)

Russ Feingold


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:53:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Try telling that (2.00 / 3)

The 9/11 line is now being played on the blogs.

This has got to be a new low.

You could of put an Osama Bin Laden picture up for consistency.


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Try telling that (2.00 / 5)

No, not a new low...sigh. Did you forget the anti-Obama vid posted on this site w/images of 9/11?

Nor, is this posted in this diary a "new" low,
"screaming, ranting, raving, railing, and dancing like a chicken lunatic Reverend Wright juxtaposed with an angry Obama with an outstretched pointing finger..."

Such projection reflects more on the poster than on the target.

I won't even go into the finger-gate reference....

"screaming, ranting, raving, railing, and dancing like a chicken lunatic." That is how this diary will ultimately be remembered.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Try telling that (2.00 / 5)

So, you're saying "9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11; If you think I'm wrong, then 9/11 9/11 9/11!!!"

Yikes. This is epic, and calls for something equally so:


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Try telling that (2.00 / 6)

How convenient of you to forget that people are humas when you were trashing Edwards, Kennedy and any other prominent person who supported Obama.


by venician on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Try telling that (2.00 / 3)

"hatred, vitriol and downright disrespect"

That sounds just like what Kristen Breitweiser was serving at HuffPo with this piece.

Those with specious, ad hominem, or personal attacks against Breitweiser should be called out but there are also many respectful, thoughtful replies that attack Breitweiser's article.

I don't think any generic Obama/Clinton supporter has the right to a "holier-than-now" attitude when it comes to the attacks flying in this race, especially Alegre.


by batgirl71 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:49:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 8)

Should we even bother posting replies disproving this slanderous diary towards the presumptive Democratic nominee or will you just ignore them, like you have the last 30 times you posted a diary in this same vein?

I'm sure this will make the rec list despite how illogical it is. Congratulations, I guess.


by freeing zeus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Problem for Me (2.00 / 13)

has never been Clinton as a person OR as a true Democrat at heart. My problem has been her poor campaigning which I'm afraid would follow her into the General.

Let's face it, eight or nine months ago, HRC was WAY ahead of Barack Obama. There were other candidates closer than he was, but she seemed to be unreachable with her lead. She's steadily lost that lead, and whether you wanna count FL and/or MI or not, she has nowhere NEAR the overwhelming lead she had before the Primary began. I'm in the majority who sees her as behind in the Popular Vote. Her numbers have steadily moved down, while Obama's have steadily moved up.

Either Clinton or Obama would make a VASTLY better President than McSame would ever make. As an ex-Edwards man, I've thrown my hat into the ring with the only candidate whose numbers, over time, have been heading in the RIGHT direction.


by RNinNC on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:48:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (1.71 / 7)

"My problem has been her poor campaigning which I'm afraid would follow her into the General."

Your problem with Hillary in that regard is an erroneously perceived one by you.

Every proven, credible, well regarded electoral vote projection group has Clinton beating McCain, and McCain beating Obama.


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:49:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 5)

sure!


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:52:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Start to Now (2.00 / 7)

she's far behind where she was. To me, that doesn't bode well. She had every chance to run away with it, and I would have gladly supported her in that if she had. But the rules for Democratic Nomination - like or agree with them or not - have NOT turned out to support Clinton. Otherwise, quite simply, she'd still be FAR FAR ahead - or at least considered to still be in the lead by the majority of Democrats, delegates, and superdelegates.

Clinton is a great person, but this is not her year, and her campaign was second best. I temporarily left DailyKos a couple of months ago over the Hillary Hatred over there, but that doesn't mean I believe she's earned our nomination with her lackluster campaign. Paint me however you will.


by RNinNC on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:16:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 4)

Utter and complete nonsense. They're both tied. Obama after fighting off the triple attacks of Hillary, Bill and the McCain campaign. Hillary after getting a free ride because Obama's afraid of offending the sore losers.

Seriously, do any of you ever wonder why McCain and his flying monkeys never mention Hillary Clinton, and haven't in months? Even back when she stood some slim chance of winning the nomination?


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 2)

Clinton 284 vs. McCain 237

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Cl inton/Maps/May19.html

Obama 242 vs. McCain 285

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Ob ama/Maps/May19.html


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:47:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 4)


Pres '08
May 18 Gallup Clinton (D) 47%, McCain (R) 45%
Pres '08
May 18 Gallup McCain (R) 46%, Obama (D) 45%

Pres '08
May 18 RasmussenObama (D) 45%, McCain (R) 44%
Pres '08
May 18 RasmussenClinton (D) 44%, McCain (R) 44%

What most troubles me about those EV maps is I have never seen one where Clinton can even get close to 270 without Florida.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:53:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 2)

I live in Florida and Hillary is viewed favorably here.

I'm speaking only of electoral vote totals in my comment, so I don't understand why you're using figures of another type to counter?

If popular votes mattered, Al Gore would be president.


by phoenixdreamz on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:03:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 8)

Sorry. I forgot one of chief rules of ClintonBall is you throw out any statistics that counter your argument.

As for Hillary being "viewed favorably", she's been unchallenged for months now. John McCain wouldn't be worried about offending her supporters. Joe Lieberman will be campaigning for him. Your governor is at what, 65% favorable? Jeb freakin' Schiavo Bush left office with high approval ratings.

You'll forgive me if, as a Democrat, I don't want to pin my hopes for '08 on the state that gave us the butterfly ballot


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:09:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On this day in history! (2.00 / 6)

Source: Associated Press
WASHINGTON - Billionaire Texan Ross Perot, as yet not a declared presidential candidate, has pulled ahead of both President Bush and Democrat Bill Clinton among voters nationwide, according to a poll released yesterday. The poll taken for Time and Cable News Network showed Perot to be the choice of 33 percent, while 28 percent supported Bush and 24 percent backed Clinton.

Lest we not forget how much GE polls can tell us at this stage.


by jontabb on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On this day in history! (2.00 / 3)

And, of course, Dukakis was polling 10 points ahead of Bush Sr. in head-to-head matchups on May 17, 1988.

Mr. Dukakis, the probable Democratic nominee, ran ahead of Mr. Bush, the almost certain Republican candidate, by 49 percent to 39 percent among 1,056 registered voters.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=940DEEDD1F3EF934A25756C0A96E94826 0


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:53:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On this day in history! (none / 0)

That is also true!

Best shelve that fact unless you don't mind making a point that you don't want to make.  


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On this day in history! (2.00 / 3)

The only real point here is to stop making arguments based on irrelevant polls.


by jontabb on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 1)

Without Florida Clinton currently wins with one of: MI, WI, IA, NH, CO, NV or MO.

The general election problem for Obama is the same as it has always been. He has a much harder time than Hillary Clinton in big states like OH, FL, PA and MO. If he writes off two of those then a bunch of Western states become must-wins for him, and McCain is competitive with Hispanics against Obama. Obama narrows our electoral map.

Hillary Clinton has more ways she can win in the general election because she has a better chance in OH, FL and PA.


by souvarine on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:36:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly (2.00 / 3)

the "Kerry plus one strategy", which overlooks her weakness in OR, WA, MI and a whole bunch of other states Kerry and Gore won.

And, again, this is while she's had essentially a free ride from Obama, McCain and a supposedly "anti-Hillary" media.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:49:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly (2.00 / 1)

I count seven targets there, including MI.

You and I have different definitions of "free ride".


by souvarine on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly (2.00 / 4)

Have you heard McCain mention her name in the last eight weeks?

Obama criticizes Clinton, he's a sexist bully. Obama praises Clinton, he's a condescending sexist.

As to the media: This race has been, statistically, over since Wisconsin, but Hillary calls it a tie, the media agrees. Hillary declares Indiana the most importantest state ever, the media agrees. Hillary declares West Virginia and Kentucky somehow matter more than Oregon or North Carolina, the media agrees. Hillary declares Obama can't win working class whites, "hard working Americans", the media agrees, without noting that A) this applies to Appalachia very distinctly, not the West (CO, WA, OR) or Midwest (IL, IA, MN, WI), or B) which is probably more relevant, that Obama has done progressively better among all those groups from Ohio to Pennsylvania to Indiana.

The New York Times has an article today, it's third day in a row of such, if I'm not mistaken, about how Hillary lost because of sexism. No mention of the AUMF vote and subsequent Liebermanism that actually cost her the nomination.

The supposedly anti-Hillary MSM, Chris Matthews notwithstanding, takes it's talking points from the Clinton campaign.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not according to Obama's campaign (2.00 / 1)

According to Jeffrey Berman, Obama's delegate counter: "I've got ten things on my plate and I'm still trying to win this [a choice expletive] thing"

Maybe the MSM, which has happily run with Obama's talking points, knows something you don't.


by souvarine on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:16:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not according to Obama's campaign (2.00 / 3)

Yes, as you rightly point out, thank God for Jeff Berman. While Hillary's staff was busy positioning themselves for their next job, Obama's staff has been busy winning elections, delegates and votes. You hit the nail on the head.


by edg1 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Better than Hillary's farce of a campaign (2.00 / 2)

Caucus states don't matter.

Well, that decision looks really dumb right now.

Agreeing to not seat Florida and Michigan.

Another really dumb decision.

But I guess mistakes by your candidate are just endearing and not representative of her "true" experience.


by Regenman on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly (none / 0)

Yep.  And lately they've been accepting her very warped and twisted interpretation of the popular vote.  Forget the fact that her numbers ignore caucus states and include MI where he wasn't even on the ballot.  What a load of bull!!!


by Renie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 12:26:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 3)

Those maps you post do some interesting allocation. They give McCain Ohio and Michigan against Obama, but when you roll-over their actual numbers show them tied.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Electoral Vote Projection (2.00 / 1)

You said this

Every proven, credible, well regarded electoral vote projection group has Clinton beating McCain, and McCain beating Obama.

and then proceeded provide one electoral map as evidence of your claim (one poll which relies on the same flawed methodology as Jerome's front page piece of shit).

I think the SUSA poll from March is far more credible than either of those examples, and it shows both Dems beating McCain, Obama having a negligibly higher total.


by bookish on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 4)

Then why isn't she beating Obama where it matters (actual votes and delegates)?

He ran a better campaign than she did.  She absolutely melted down after super tuesday only to regain her footing a month later.

I'm with the above poster.  How does Hillary prove that these campaign problems won't follow her to the GE?


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:04:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 2)

Every poll had Hillary winning this primary big time. What is your point, again?

Another amateur trying to play expert citing polls.


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:36:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

Everyone regarded well by you?


by niksder on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Problem for Me (2.00 / 3)

RNinNC

That is probable the first honest thing I have read by an Obama fan since I came to this board.  


by GendraX on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:12:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I Hope You'll Find More! (2.00 / 2)

I've been dodging fights from both sides online AND in real life. I'm not ready to speak poorly of either candidate as an individual OR as a Democrat. I am, however, ready to pass judgment on their individual campaigns. In much the same way Rudy and Fred shed their leads (albeit brief leads) on the Repub side, Hillary has done much the same on our side.

Her team did not get her message across in a compelling way. And I dare say that, for the majority of Democrats, delegates, and superdelegates, she's still not getting her message across in a way that's getting respect and acceptance.

While she could win the delegate count with 90%+ of all remaining delegates available, I think she should be toning herself to match that tiny possibility - marching forward like she's down by one and has the ball with plenty of time to shoot has gotten to be dishonest at this point. Her campaign cannot pull back a notch and look reality based enough for most of us.


by RNinNC on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:10:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

She may have earned the right to be heard without being trashed but...

Kinda lame to make your case by spouting nonsense about Obama's hypothetical weakness.

If you can't make a case without being negative, what's wrong with your candidate?  Your diary discussed no issues, no policies.  Just a critique on who may or may not win what come GE time.

If this is all we can expect to hear from Hillary, then she hasn't earned the right for us to listen to her.


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

Certainly she has earned that right, but her premise makes no sense.  The "broken state" of the party?!  We have two great candidates, record-shattering turnout, extraordinary fundraising, and a Republican party in disarray.  What's broken?

I reject the premise that a closely fought contest for the party nomination means that anything is broken.  Indeed, it has been closely fought, but we're past the climax, and as we approach the denouement, we have a clear winner of the primaries--by the only metric that ultimately matters as well as by every other major metric.  Polls this far out are hardly conclusive, but both our candidates beat McCain, in spite of the fact that he has had three months as presumptive nominee to mend fences and build favor with the electorate.  Nevertheless, the president is a far greater drag on his candidacy than Rev. Wright is on Obama's.  In Obama, we are about to choose the candidate that Democrats and voters generally consider by far the more trustworthy.  He's the better fundraiser and the better organizer of voter registration and GOTV.  His negatives are far lower, and he'll be a tremendous campaigner and fundraiser for down-ticket Democrats everywhere.  He has a list of 1.5 million contributors, and it's been posited that a single email to this list on behalf of Democrats vying to unseat House and Senate Republicans will net upwards of $1M.

Broken?!  We're rocking!  Just ask 75,000 happy Portlanders.


by deminva on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:50:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 5)

Broken?!  We're rocking!  Just ask 75,000 happy Portlanders.

They don't count. Latte-drinkers.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:55:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, Sure (2.00 / 2)

By definition, people who attend are not hardworking.  If they were hardworking, they'd be working hard, not attending a rally.


by deminva on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She puts it out there (1.83 / 6)

She deserves the criticism.

This is nothing but a long, twisty rant and rehash of Clinton talking points from a bitter woman.

She and other 9/11 widows earned respect by taking on the powers that be for that fiasco, but this comes from someone with deaf ears and a closed mind.

No wonder you loved it, Alegre.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She puts it out there (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, but if voters broke it they own it.  Support me or you'll use.  Fear, it's a motivator 24/7 and 365.

Change.  I do not think it means what you think it means.


by niksder on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

I see they're still TR'ing anything they disagree with here.  I've been gone for a while.  Thought things might change.  Wrong.

Uprated.


by creeper1014 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Amen, sister.

When will Kristen run from NJ?  We need her in D.C.


by AthenaDem on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, we don't. (2.00 / 3)

I don't think we NEED anyone in Washington who runs around screaming that the party is "broken" b/c her preferred candidate for the nomination lost and she can't deal with it like an adult.


by Deano963 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:06:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amen, she voted for Bush in 2000 (2.00 / 1)

yep, just because she's a woman, you didn't do your basic research on what she believes in.

Do you have any clue if she's pro-choice?  Nope didn't think so.  


by Regenman on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

Hey how about you stop trashing our probable nominee?

Hasn't he earned the right not to be trashed by the likes of you?

Just because your favorite candidate is not winning is not a reason to continue this SMEAR campaign.  You  can claim that Rev. Wright is a 527's dream, but there are as many if not more such issues for your prefered candidate.  I hear no plans on how they are going to combat the 527's for her.  It is only though Obama's decency That these issues haven't been brought up.  Do you honestly think that the Republicans wont?

Please take a chill pill and delete this garbage of a diary since it will not help Clinton and all it does is give Repubs more ammo for the fall.

This diary is a disgrace.


by Why Not on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (2.00 / 3)

She certainly has a right to make her 'Clinton is more electable' argument here, and she does not deserve to be trashed for it.  I would hope my fellow Obama supporters can make polite, reasoned arguments when they disagree.  Those who don't... well it will just increase my suspicion that we are being infested with a redstate fifth column.

The bigger concern that I have is how many Clinton supporters will take that electability argument and try and make it a self fulfilling prophecy in November if Obama is the nominee.  I personally don't understand how anyone who supports Clinton and the ideals she stands for would think McCain would be a better pick than Obama... again, it makes me wonder about redstate and freeper infiltration when I hear that kind of talk.

Personally, if Clinton manages to pull off an upset and wins the nomination, I will vote for her in November.  I know many of you Clinton supporters will not be happy if she is not the nominee, but can we at least agree that Obama is a much better choice than McCain?

Peace


by protothad on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BO better not do his victory lap (none / 0)

prematurely, or try to make the Democratic Party the Obama Party.


by observer5 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:05:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

alegre, just curious, what will you do when Obama becomes the nominee, assuming that happens?


by animated on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:37:00 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 7)

Well you know what they say about folks who assume stuff - right?

To answer your question - nothing.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 6)

This whole diary is based off an assumption that Barack Obama can't beat John McCain.

You're being completely disingenuous here.


by freeing zeus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing? (2.00 / 1)

So if/when Obama is confirmed as the nominee, you will do nothing? Does that mean:

a) You won't campaign for him or write diaries?
b) You won't vote for the democratic nominee?

Just wonderin'


by duende on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:00:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nothing? (1.00 / 2)

Of course she won't.  Being intellectually dishonest and mouthpiece for a failing campaign are all that she has to cling to at this particular moment in time.  Every single diary she does is a shot at the prohibitive nominee of our party and she does it out of spite, BITTERNESS, and an egomaniacal desire to say that if her anointed candidate doesn't win she will do everything to see that the other guys win because that will teach us a lesson.  Pfft she is old news and a hack.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:47:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

While you can disagree with Alegre on issues, (2.00 / 3)

that was a vicious personal attack and over the line.  

I don't support Clitnon, but I am sick of tired of the hatred thown at alegre.  You sure don't sound like Obama when you attack a blogger as you did.

I don't even agree with this diary, but she has the right to speak without your vicious personal atttacks.


by TomP on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While you can disagree with Alegre on issues, (2.00 / 1)

And before people go nuts, that was a typo.  

Clinton is what I intended.


by TomP on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While you can disagree with Alegre on issues, (2.00 / 2)

Perhaps my tone was a bit harsher than intended but I don't really care.  Every single day, it's one hit job after another.  The continued bitterness towards Obama supporters is getting to the point where some of us don't care whether Clinton supporters come over to our side.  We have a big bug, but we ain't draggin people onto it.  Her, and her base, are part of the problem with the current political situation the way that it is today.  How can she, or her supporters, contemplate working with the GOP when they can't even play nice with other Democrats?  F that...there comes a point where you stop trying to talk the crazy person down from the ledge - jump already so we can get on with the program.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: While you can disagree with Alegre on issues, (2.00 / 2)

sorry - big BUS...typo disease strikes again.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:30:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama wants all voters he can get. (2.00 / 3)

I want Democratic unity.

Thanks for your comment.  Better to disagree with her content.  It's more persuasive anyway.


by TomP on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who started it (none / 0)

when they can't even play nice with other Democrats?

Oh that's rich.  Either you've forgotten the recent past or you think we have.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

As you'll do 'nothing' if Obama wins the nomination,
do you expect Obama supporters will do 'nothing' if Hillary Clinton wins the nomination?

You really sound as if you didn't seriously believe Hillary could be nominated at this stage...


by french imp on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Michelle said she'd have to think about what she would do.  Was that OK?

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

Your whole diary is a "what happens when".

Seriously, do you ever listen to yourself?


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:06:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

I thought you promised to work for the nominee. Or was that code for "Only if it's Clinton"?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 0)

Stop playing expert pollster when you really can't predict what will happen in a general election. Polls had Hillary beating Obama very easily in the primary at one time. Things change over months. For you to have a defeatist attitude about the DEmocratic Party shows why Iraq war is still not a slam dunk electoral issue. People like you concentrate on a cult of personality rather than building a Democratic Party message.


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:39:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

So there's no convincing Alegre as she works really, really hard trying to convince others.  Hmmm.  We're on a one-way street here folks and I ASSUME that makes discussion kind of moot.


by niksder on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good - I am SOOOOO looking forward to (none / 0)

not having to see anymore of your terribly written and poorly-sourced POS diaries anymore. How long until Barack makes it official? Two weeks at the most?

Wow - only two weeks to go until I never have to see another awful Alegre diary again!


by Deano963 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

Well, according to the quote from the diary, a lot of people are in for retribution...  what that means exactly, I have NO idea...

I would assume people who have bumper stickers on during the primary will have them on during the general... actually, I would assume there will be more of them... just as I assume that many Democrats are going to put the divisiveness behind them and support the nominee...

I will not, however, assume that Alegre will be one of them... that would probably be followed by ice-skating in Hell given she has said she won't.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.00 / 6)

dream on! You can't offend us,belittle us, denigrate us and our candidate and then expect us to just forgive and forget - he's the nominee - I shut down my TV, catch up with my selection of great books and tune back in on November 4th to listen to McCain's victory speech and laugh with glee!


by suzieg on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:13:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 10)

"Lately, it seems that the Democratic Party is falling back into its bad habits and foolish ways. Just walk down the streets of NYC and mention the words Hillary or Obama and you find good friends screaming at each other, family members sleeping on couches, and more divisiveness than unity. It is sad -- but apparently unavoidable. Just look at yesterday's nasty exchanges and today's New York Times headlines."

-Kristen Breistmuller.

That's from a pre-Super Tuesday op-ed when she said that for the sake of guaranteeing a victory, whoever was leading after Feb. 5th should be the nominee, and the loser should back them.

Apparently she assumed that it would be Clinton, because as soon as Super Tuesday came and went with Obama holding a lead, she changed her tune in record time.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:37:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 7)

Will you be laughing with glee and happiness in your heart when more dead soldiers are returned to their families because John McCain is elected? Will you take responsibility for your inaction in voting for a person who will bring them home and end this horrific war?
Will you stand up and bear the burden of those lives lost because you simply couldn't bring yourself to vote for Obama?

Hillary and Obama will bring the troops home and save lives. McCain will continue to send them to their deaths.

I hope you consider the consequences of not voting or voting for McCain. Please for the love of life.


by liquidbread11 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:28:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

Yeah, you would rather laugh in glee when someone who is in cahoots with a bunch of morons responsible for many deaths in Iraq gets into power. You will laugh in glee as the economy will continue to fade on the international scale.


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Will you still be laughing when the McCain appointees to the Supreme Court overturn Roe v. Wade?


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Roe v Wade is already gone (none / 0)

85% of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. Clinic terrorism, bombings, fires, and doctor/nurse murders have never even made orange alert.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_vi ol.htm  

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

That pretty much sums up the attitudes of people who say they will do nothing to help the nominee on either side. It shows you are not serious about helping progressive causes, only in cheering on your favored candidate.


by animated on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Bravo......so agree...us and a lot more of US....unity my arse....not with this group!


by GendraX on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two days. (2.00 / 9)

Two days and he'll have secured a majority of the pledged delegates.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:38:06 PM EST

Re: Two days. (2.00 / 2)

SO - what's your point?

The TOTAL delegates needed includes superdelegates and the number is 2210 when you include Michigan and Florida and I think you know as well as anyone that everyone's acknowledged those states will be at the convention.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (2.00 / 1)

It's all up to the Super Delegates! Woo hoo!

How is that going again?


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (2.00 / 1)

The Superdelagates don't have a vote until the convention. The can support or endorse a candidate before then but they don't have a legal vote unti the convention. (which isn't in two days- nice try)


by Justwords on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:30:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (none / 0)

It's only diary worthy if Hillary picks any up.

Got it! (nice try)


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is getting more supers all the time (2.00 / 1)

As the guy on TPM says:

This is EXCELLENT NEWS!
FOR HILLARY!


Obama leads the popular vote too
by kellogg on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:37:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (none / 0)

Since the last primary, 20 superdelegates have come out for Obama.

Hillary Clinton has picked up 1, and lost 1/2, for a total of half a super.

(not including add-ons).


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Was that.. (2.00 / 3)

the primary he lost by 41%?

Wow, imagine if he does that when he loses by 40-points.... what will happen when he wins OR?


by Tatan on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Was that.. (none / 0)

Yeah, especially when you compare post-KY to all the superdelegates who came out for Hillary after she lost VA, MD, DC, IL, GA, WA, NE, MN, AK... I could go on.

Of course, I don't think any of those are States That Matter (tm) so who cares?


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nope (none / 0)

Standing rule is that the winner of the nomination needs 2025. Unless or until the RBC of the DNC makes a change on May 31, then the nomination of the party can be secured with the standing number.

Keep that in mind because with the 55-60 pledged delegates he's likely to pick up in KY and OR, that will leave Obama with around 45 needed to win the nomination. If he continues picking up SDs at the rate he has been (4-5/day) over the next 11 days, he'll secure the nomination before the RBC even meets.


by bookish on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope (none / 0)

... and the RBC will give MI and FL half votes (after giving Obama the MI uncommiteds), and he'll "unwin".  Better to just focus on McCain and don't declare victory until early June.


by lilnev on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure they will. n/t (none / 0)


by bookish on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:43:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope (2.00 / 1)

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Hell no!

And it ain't over now.


by niksder on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL! (none / 0)

Did you mean to say that? b/c it was too funny to be an accident.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (2.00 / 1)

Sorry to rain on the parade but...

A majority of pledged delegates gives Obama an insurmountable lead in one of the metrics SDs should be using to choose.

Not a "game over" moment, but you have to be able to recognize the significance of it.


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (2.00 / 2)

You really do live in Hillaryland, don't you Alegre.

If you think those delegates are being seated in full, you haven't been paying attention.  Some form of punishment will be exacted on Michigan and Florida for bucking the calendar.

More than likely, they'll each lose half their delegates.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:26:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (none / 0)

Why did Hillary saqy that Michigan wouldn't count at one time?


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:41:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (none / 0)

Because that's when she needed Iowa and N.H. and it made perfectly good sense.  Without Florida and Michigan, we'd have very little to discuss right now.

They provide the only metric (popular vote) through which she can claim a lead.  Of course, the popular vote can't be known (some caucus states don't tabulate), but it sure is fun to talk about.


by niksder on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The DNC has set the # at 2025. (none / 0)

Hate to break it to you, but Hillary does not get to set the goalposts here. It dosen't matter one damn bit what she says the # should be.

The DNC says it's 2025 - so it's 2025.


by Deano963 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ugh (none / 0)

FL and MI were NOT legitimate and would NOT be the same result if they had stayed on schedule for the primary.

Electability arguments are all fine with me- I think we should be sure we are putting our best foot forward here but seriously, the MI and FL argument is a dead, rotting horse at this point and pains me to take anything you write seriously because you keep beating the poor thing, let it die already.


by califdem on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two days. (2.00 / 4)

Great diary, Alegre.  I've long been an admirer of the Jersey Girls and of Kristin especially.  She's articulate, knowledgable, thoughtful, beautiful and great on TV.  She's hits all the important points in this article and her passions shines through.  I'd love to see a "Kristin for Kongress" bumper sticker.  Wouldn't she be great in Congress?  


by Tolstoy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

How many times do we have to bust these talking points?  This is becoming a full time job!


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:40:36 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

"Talking" points...?
"screaming, ranting, raving, railing, and dancing like a chicken lunatic."
McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

I cant wait till Hillary diaries are gone for good on MyDD.


by Cheebs on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:40:53 PM EST

Why? (2.00 / 6)

Whatever will you do when you can no longer troll-rate Alegre for no good reason?

Your TR of her comment violates this site's guidelines. Look 'em up.


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

TR's are used on this site to express a difference of opinion...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They are not supposed to be. (2.00 / 7)

TR indicates that a person is being deliberately disruptive - that is to say, TROLLING, in a diary.

a Zero is for when a person slanders another commenter.

The moderators here have explained this before, but too many posters don't listen.

It's one of the things that destroyed dKos. TRs were used as a way to enforce mob rule and to silence dissent.


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They are not supposed to be. (none / 0)

Get a reality check. I see more Hillary fans abusing the rating system here. Not only with TRs, but with endless uprating of commens that are nothing but "hey I am a Hillary supporter. Rate me a 2". "whats up people" rate that a 2 if it's by a Hillaryite.


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:43:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They are not supposed to be. (none / 0)

I was addressing a specific person who is constantly attacked, by a person who is abusing the ratings system. My remarks about abusive ratings were not limited to Obama or HRC supporters.

The fact that you interpreted my comment the way you did speaks volumes.


by OtherLisa on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:29:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They are not supposed to be. (none / 0)

Well I take it back if that is what you meant. I am just so used to people blaming Obama supporters by bringing up the same Dkos point you brought up.


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (2.00 / 4)

No TR's  for differences of opinion are a reason many lose their rating privilages. Please read the site rules for HR, and TR.


by Justwords on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:22:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (none / 0)

Then the admins must have taken the last few weeks off.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:07:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why? (2.00 / 1)

Agreed...  I am well aware of the rules... I was giving the mob rules that apparently exist on this site.

I have seen perfectly innocuous comments get troll rated here...  no reason other than a difference of opinion.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.80 / 5)

Don't hold your breath.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

Oh, I won't. But I do find the need to hold my nose more than I ever thought I would reading diaries from my fellow Democrats.


by Rumproast on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why shouldn't I??? (none / 0)

In one of your comments above you said that you would do "nothing"(your words) if and when Barack Obama becomes the nominee.

I assumed "nothing" included no longer posting any more of your meaningless, fact-free rants.

Perhaps I got a little too excited at the prospect of never having to hear from you again.


by Deano963 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

The Hillary diaries can stay--I can't wait until the McCain diaries masquerading as Hillary diaries are gone.


by Brannon on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Then they can change the name to MyBO (none / 0)

Oh, right, that's already been done.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 6)

And another divisive diary appears. Same old talking points only now with praise for McCain. And why shouldn't she be trashed? Clintonites trash EVERY notable person who comes out in support of OBAMA?


by venician on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:42:06 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.85 / 7)

Ok put up or shut up.  When have I ever trashed Ted Kennedy or John Edwards?  Or any of his other supporters for that matter?

Hmmmmm?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

Weren't you involved in the "We hate NARAL because they endorsed Obama" diary?


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

<crickets>


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

This is what happens in Alegre arguments when they go south.


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzz (1.90 / 11)

And another trashy, divisive ugly diary shoots to the rec list after the word is put out the diarist to No Quatter (that cesspool of site run by Larry Johnson), Taylor Marsh and Hillary is 44. They blogswarm this place everytime just to rec these vicious hate mongerging pieces of of work.

In two days Barack Obama will our nominee for President. Can't wait to see what kind of crazy ugly stuff is written about our Democratic nominee at that time. This should be rich.


I support our nominee President Barack Obama - and the Admins can't stand me, so I can't rec or rate. This is very mean if you were to ask me.
by TheFullBerry on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

Alegre (or whoever else), quick question:

John Kerry won every "electorally rich" state in the 2004 Democratic primaries. He won so many delegates in so many contests by so many considerable margins that he was unquestionably the nominee regardless of rules and proportionate delegate selection.

What happened to him come November 2004?


by Reeves on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:42:29 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.80 / 5)

I think it's called the swift boaters.  And his miserable failure to respond quickly and forcefully.

I'm sorry but can ANYONE really see Hillary wilting under their attacks?

One more point - they're going to have about 1000 times the ammunition to use against your guy.  It'll be a cake walk for them.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

I can't see her wilting... what I can see is a flashback to the partisan bitchfest of the late 90's...  with the same stupid arguments they used before but with the must of nostalgia this time.

And... NOTHING for the Republicans this year will be a cakewalk.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 7)

Bullshit. Hillary has at least as much dirt to be dug up as Obama, and you're blind if you can't see that.

And considering how well Obama has responded to smears in the past (see: speech on race, recent response to Bush/McCain on appeasement), I think he responds quickly and forcefully to attacks quite well.

Stop smearing our nominee.


by freeing zeus on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

And they tried the Wright thing in Missippi and it failed, a Democrat took back a seat from Republicans.  It won't work this time.


by Ellinorianne on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

Objectively speaking, there is much, much more dirt on Hillary Clinton than Barack Obama. And because Obama is essentially a gentleman, it hasn't been touched yet at all.


by drmark on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.88 / 9)

So your premise is that Hillary Clinton will ascend to the presidency with the EXACT SAME "electoral numbers" she has now because Republicans will be unable to slime her in any way shape or form?

BWA-HA-HA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA!

Two more questions, then:

Why was she unable to defeat a one-term senator who started the race 100 superdelegates behind her and DIDN'T use any Clinton scandals (Hsu, Peter Paul, you name it) against her?

And if she can't beat him, how can she possibly McCain?


by Reeves on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.75 / 4)

Don't you know she's a fighter, she never gives up ;)


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:39:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.83 / 6)

She has THREE TESTICLES!!!

Right, James Carville?

Three fucking testicles!!!

THE POWER OF THE TRI-TESTE WILL KEEP HER AFLOAT!!!

Her Tri-Teste engulfed by the power of her testicular fortitude.

I wish Hillary Clinton could give my daughters one of her magic testes that she is said by these people to have. They seem like they have special super powers. That let her defy math and logic.


by AlexScott on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

Don't know why AlexScott is getting troll-rated.  James Carville said she had three testicles.  Not making this up.

Don't ask.


When you start out making the "slippery slope" argument, where do you draw the line?
by Jess81 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:04:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/05/carville-says-o.html

TRI-TESTE.


by AlexScott on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Since when did testicles become the measure of a candidate?  And how is that not sexist?!!?!?

I'd like to hear from some Hillary supporters who are concerned about sexism - what do y'all have to say about this?


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Ah soitgoes returns, the troll rater extraordinaire.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:58:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

And if she can't beat him, how can she possibly McCain?

Um, could it be that the Democratic primary and the GE are completely different beasts?

If only they held caucuses rather than primaries in the GE, Obama probably would be a shoo-in.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

I would call going from prohibitive frontrunner to underdog over a primary season evidence of "wilting".


by Pravin on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

If you honestly believe that Clinton has less dirt on her than Obama, there really isn't much that can be said.  A debate requires that both sides have some grasp of reality.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:46:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Alegre, I'm happy to respond if you're interested in dialogue.  If you're only willing to offer points that support your own agenda, that's not dialogue... it's more like propaganda.  I'd appreciate if you'd let me know.

If it's to be dialogue: I can't see Hillary wilting.  I can see voters being turned off even as Hillary toughs it out.  Do you not consider it a problem that she's got such high negatives?  And do you think it couldn't get worse, and couldn't be a problem come November?


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 8)

Right alegre, because the 527's will just leave Hillary alone. Same goes for Fox. You know Hannity and O'Reilly love Hills.

Why would you think 527's are only a problem for Barack Obama?

Do you really expect the right wing media to be in the tank for Hillary for the General Election?

You do know their are alot of things that have gone on after the Clintons left the White House?

Do you really believe this nonsense that she has been vetted?

It's boggles the mind.

527's will do what they do and we will be ready.

It doesn't matter which candidate we have.


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:43:33 PM EST

Not only that but it seems self-evident (none / 0)

that Americans are over the negative attack system created by turd blossom (Rove) due to the downward spiral of the Republican party.  Apathy, party witching, and even some remaining party voters polled as going for Obama

Fear mongering is overrated or at least something not to be relied on when making important decisions.  The Supreme Court thought so too in Brown v. Bd of Education where even though de-segregation could possibly lead to further attacks against african-american students, a major argument agaisnt de-segregation, the Court rejected that issue as determinative in order to do the right thing.

I do not support "the potential of endless PAC attacks against Obama" as a reason for Supers to not side with him.  And even if the attack potential is more than likely to occur, Americans, overall, have been fooled twice with resulting injury (Bush 1st and 2nd term)and will not stand for it again.

I suspect Republicans are going to experience some "blowback" when they rely on their outdated tricks.  It has already happened in MS


by KLRinLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 7)

Thanks alegre. You rock!
She knows how hard Hillary worked after 9/11. There's more than a few responders that feel the same way about Hillary. Unlike Rudy, it wasn't about photo ops with her.
by durendal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:45:41 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.94 / 19)

sorry Alegre but we are not afraid of you, Hillary, her supporters, or the Republicans!!!!  
We are going to win the Presidency!

Photobucket


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:45:56 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 6)

So he can stage big rallies.

Hillary prefers smaller venues, where she can really get to know people.

She doesn't preach, she listens.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com


by Caro on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:58:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Let`s see!

In Texas, the Obama crowds.

Houston - 40,000
Austin - 35,000
Dallas - 22,000
Ft. Worth - 20,000

Hillary crowds.

El Paso - 12,000
Ft. Worth Stockyards - 10,000

However, she still won the popular vote by over 100,000 in Texas - by 3.5%.

Crowd sized determines nothing!


by mcctx on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 7)

He has won more states.

More delegates.

More popular vote.

He beat the formidable Clinton machine to become the

presumptive Democratic nominee (no matter what you say).

The real world says otherwise.

I think he is doing allright for himself.

The biggest crowds in primary history are just an added plus

for the history books.

A historic campaign by Senator Obama!

Get used to it.

President Barack Obama!


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:19:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Obama can't win (Bartcop)
He didn't win California
He didn't win New York
He didn't win Texas
He didn't win Florida
He didn't win Pennsylvania
He didn't win Massachusetts
He didn't win Ohio
He didn't win Michigan
He didn't win Catholic voters
He didn't win Reagan Democrats
He didn't win women voters
He didn't win white voters
He didn't win Jewish voters
He didn't win the Latino voters
He didn't win the Asian voters
He didn't win the working class voters
If you repeat these facts you will be called a racist.
 Jim in Michigan

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com

Called a stupid, white-trash racist because I voted for Hillary.  When does the Unity start?


by Caro on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

the moat recent polls show Obama beating Clinton in CA ad JJ, if the primary was today. Guess it's about having more info out there.
Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:47:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Other polls are showing buyers' remorse in states that went for Obama.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com

Called a stupid, white-trash racist because I voted for Hillary.  When does the Unity start?


by Caro on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

He's doing fine wit white voters outside of Appalachia
Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

...and lost by 5 delegates.  It's a pity how few people on here realize that the delegate count is the yard stick by which we measure this race.


by matchles on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Not so fast.  Those 67 caucus votes in Texas are still in limbo until sometime in June.

Also, Hillary leads there in the SD count by 14 to 12 with 5 or 6 undecideds to be determined.


by mcctx on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:30:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.75 / 4)

heh heh I wish I could see the faces of Hillary supporters when she concedes.  


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

yeah, especially with the way the super delegates have been flocking to Hillary lately.


by matchles on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:12:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

It's a pity how few people realize that the EC yardstick favors Clinton.


by Montague on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:58:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

If you buy into the 50%+1 strategy.  Obama has a much stronger map in terms of states in play.  Of course the logic on this site suggests that a state favoring McCain over Obama by 1 or 2 points in May means that it is out of reach in November.  Obama has the ability to carry states Hillary could only dream of.  


by matchles on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Dream on.  I've been kicking around politics for a long while.  That kind of crap simply doesn't happen.  McCain may seem like an old fart to people on this site, but you'd better be ready for the GE campaign.  People have been giving that man a pass since dirt was invented and they will continue to do so.  He doesn't deserve his "maverick" mantle, but it will stay in place firmly in the eyes of huge swaths of voters.

I pay zero attention to polls this far out.  They only matter a few days before the election.

Incidentally, I buy into strategy that works.  


by Montague on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Yeah, how well did that strategy work in the last two elections?

You believe what you will but I prefer not to accept beliefs on fallacious arguments.  So it is going to be hard to convince me to blindly accept that old ways are best.

I do find it interesting that you feel McCain is a better candidate then Hillary.  Was Hillary not trying? Why will the same attacks work when it is between him and McCain? What makes Hillary the better candidate when she got beat handily by a first term senator?  


by matchles on Tue May 20, 2008 at 02:56:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama won Texas. (2.00 / 2)

And he's going to win the nomination.
Please stop making stuff up.
I support our nominee President Barack Obama - and the Admins can't stand me, so I can't rec or rate. This is very mean if you were to ask me.
by TheFullBerry on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:12:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama won Texas. (2.00 / 2)

You forget that DNC-sanctioned caucuses don't count, while unsanctioned contests in MI and FL do.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Yes that is exactly why Hillary is in the predicament she is in.

/rolling eyes


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

In Hillary world it's good to be unpopular.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:40:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary prefers smaller venues... (2.00 / 3)

...because she can't fill large ones.


by darryl darryl darryl on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:06:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

Hillary prefers smaller venues, where she can really get to know people.

I know people use the LOL thing a lot, but when I read that, I really did laugh out loud.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:09:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

Beautiful photograph.


by french imp on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:31:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then please explain why you are (2.00 / 2)

so terrified of Hillary coming to the convention floor?

sorry Alegre but we are not afraid of you, Hillary, her supporters, or the Republicans!!!!

Cognitive dissonance anyone?  


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then please explain why you are (2.00 / 4)

I'm not terrified of Hillary going to the convention floor.

I'm also not terrified of a caffeinated 5-year old with a Sharpie.

I just realize nothing good can come of it.


by TCQuad on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:54:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, that is entirely a matter of (none / 0)

perspective.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, that is entirely a matter of (2.00 / 1)

Obama's currently up by 600k popular votes outside of FL and MI and by 169 pledged delegates. We've got left KY (51), OR (52), MT (16), SD (23), Puerto Rico (55), so that's 197 left. If we assume Obama will at least capture half of Oregon, there aren't enough delegates left to catch his pledged delegate lead.

So, let's go to the hypothesis.

Obama leads in popular vote (in sanctioned contests) and pledged delegates going into the convention. Clinton leads in popular vote if you throw in FL and MI (but not the undeclared MI or the uncertified caucus votes), but trails in pledged delegates.

Under what circumstances, with what perspective, does this end well for the Democrats, having Hillary on the floor of the convention still campaigning?

How will this not tear the Democratic Convention down the middle, with the Obama supporters arguing that the process is important and the Clinton supporters arguing that Obama isn't as good a candidate as Clinton?


by TCQuad on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The last sentence of your comment (none / 0)

is revealing:

with the Obama supporters arguing that the process is important and the Clinton supporters arguing that Obama isn't as good a candidate as Clinton?

To qualify, Hillary arguing that she is better able to defeat McCain, therefore, as you state, "process is important." The process that allows for superdelegates to vote for whom they percieve as the strongest against McCain. It seems as though Obama supporters are all for process, as long as that process guarantees a win for Obama. To include Hillary in that process, to give her what she has earned and is entitled to according to that same process, a platform for her argument, somehow threatens to "tear the Democratic convention down the middle." I, for one, am very weary of that threat, for that's what it is. Hillary is going to the convention with a powerful argument in hand, whether Obama supporters like it or not. She has earned that right. One of them will emerge as our nominee, and then we will begin the process of unifying our party, which will happen a lot quicker than a lot of folks around here seem to think.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's right (none / 0)

The Republicans are going to be mean to us so instead of fighting them let's run something who (hopefully!) they won't be as mean to.

That's sticking up for the Democratic party!


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:46:45 PM EST

The race is over. (2.00 / 2)

Obama is the Democratic nominee. Please decide whether to support him, to abstain, or to support McCain.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:50:29 PM EST

Re: The race is over. (none / 0)

LOL!  There are two choices: Wid us or aginst us.  Where have I heard that before.


by Sensible on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The race is over. (none / 0)

Ooh! I know that one! Hillary Clinton, talking about her universally-opposed gas tax holiday!


by Geiiga on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:38:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

SuperDelegates' votes subject to change... (2.00 / 6)

...and everyone knows it, too.

Therefore, until we're at least close to the convention, for all intents and purposes, this is by no means a done deal, regardless of whether Hillary suspends her campaign now, or keeps going.

All this bullshit about Obama having won the nomination is absolutely that--bullshit.

Nobody's won enough pledged delegates to win the nomination. And, that goes for the sentiments of all those "outraged" Obama supporters who were up in arms over the concept of the Clinton campaign snatching some of the Obama pledged delegates to move them into the Clinton column, just weeks ago. Oh, the outrage at the time from the Obama camp! Now, the reverse is happening, and we're to believe the primary process is over? I'm afraid that shit's just not flushing.

Not only are the superdelegates' votes subject to change between now and the Convention, but so are the pledged delegates' votes!

The bottom line is neither candidate has enough pledged delegate support to win the nomination; and, neither candidate will until the Convention vote is taken in August, for that matter!

Everything--and I mean everything--related to to Obama having "sewn this up" is total fiction. Pure obfuscation of the reality of the situation. Plain and simple. Cut and dried.

Nobody has secured the Democratic nomination for the Presidency this year. Period!


by bobswern on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:50:36 PM EST

Re: SuperDelegates' votes subject to change... (2.00 / 5)

Photobucket

Obligatory


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Precisely (1.40 / 5)

Excellent point.

It would be a lot easier to accept many of the pro-Obama arguments if they were objectively correct.  Unfortunately, I can't blind myself to the reality of how this process works just because it would be convenient for Barack Obama.

His best case scenario right now is to win the Democratic nomination through a combination of en masse superdelegate endorsement and to hope that the media covers up the fact that he's on track to lose the popular vote by several hundred thousands after all the primaries have finished.  Again, like George W. Bush, he'd be the candidate of "selection" not "election."  Hilarious how he also wants to win by not counting the votes in Florida.  

I would also be okay with him winning if I thought he were a man of integrity, vision, and commitment to his obligations.  But I'm far too grown up (even at my young age) to not know the difference between style and substance.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 5)

are you getting dizzy from all this spinning?  

Obama is leading by 700,000 votes where in hell do you get off writing that Hillary is leading the popular vote???


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:40:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (none / 0)

It's the tally based on the certified vote totals from all states that have voted thus far.

Let me guess... you dispute that because we "shouldn't count" the citizens who voted in Florida and Michigan.  And if we do, then we have to wave a magic wand and fantasize about how many votes Barack Obama may or may not have received in Michigan.  Then we get to call math wizards and have them divine for us "estimates" from the caucus states that didn't release certified totals.

Instead of all that hocus-pocus, I'll stick with the certified results, thanks.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 2)

hahahahah great spin I give 6/10

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?dia ryId=5699

Instead of hocus pocus you might want to try a prayer because a miracle is the only way Hillary is going to come out a winner.

Hope you don't have a mental breakdown when Hillary concedes.


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:01:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (none / 0)

I never said Obama would lose the nomination.  He will, however, lose the popular vote.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:35:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 1)

Not by any legitimate count, he won't.


by Angry White Democrat on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 2)

Which ignore 4 states that have not submitted vote totals.

So, should we ignore them?


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 2)

Let me guess...  you think we should count MI and FL (even though they DID violate the rules) with a full slate of delegates, but eliminate some states that had caucuses...

"certified results" my eye... if Hillary had done well in caucuses and Obama had won MI and FL, you wouldn't give a rats behind about "certified results"


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 3)

The media doesn't need to cover anything up - they are not buying HRC's popular vote spin, and in fact have moved on to treating Obama as the nominee.  It's only the Hillary deadenders that are still talking about this, and are becoming increasingly marginalised.  In fact, I don't know why any of us are bothering with this diary, except for a certain amount of schadenfreud.  


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (none / 0)

Obama's down in the PV and the remaining contests should put any doubts to rest.  

Your guy has more pledged delegates and he's more popular with supers, so he is likely to win the nomination.  Congrats.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:56:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 2)

He is not down in the PV by any method that does not  contort itself like a pretzel to help Hillary.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (none / 0)

I'd love to hear your popular vote predictions for Kentucky and Oregon.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:14:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (none / 0)

We'll have the real figures soon enough.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 4)

Yeah, because Obama supposedly has zero voters in Michigan. Also he has zero supporters in all those caucus states you aren't counting in your popular vote total.

So basically Clinton wins the popular vote total, if you count some illegitimate contests where she was alone on the ballot (contests she herself claimed did not count for anything), and you don't count other legitimate contests that benefitted her opponent.

Who do you expect really buys this argument? Really?

Look, it's becoming more obvious by every passing day that the hardcore Clinton supporters don't give a damn about reality. The whole thing is fluid to you, isn't it?

Disgusting.


by Aris Katsaris on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 2)

The results from Florida and Michigan were certified by the secretaries of state there.  It is a fact that in all "official" tallies, Hillary Clinton has received more votes in her name than any other candidate.  If Obama wanted votes from Michigan, surely he should have (at the risk of stating the very obvious) left his name on the ballot, no?  Under the spin of "rules compliance," we all know Obama gambled away Michigan to delegitimize an anticipated huge loss there and to pander to Iowa/New Hampshire.  He was not required or even encouraged to remove his name from the ballot.  It was a voluntary strategic choice.  

As for the four caucus states in question, they don't have any certified official totals.  All we have are estimates.  Is that fair?  Should we include the Washington primary or substitute it with an imaginary estimate from the caucus?  Either way, including the four caucus states is not a major factor.  Maine was something like a 1,000 vote spread.  Hillary won Nevada.  Iowa was under 50,000 and Washington is a big ?.  

This won't matter after Kentucky and Puerto Rico weigh in, offset by whatever Oregon can yield for Obama, and some minimal spreads in SD and MT.

It's entirely feasible that Hillary will net over 200,000 votes on Tuesday alone.  That being the case, it soon won't even be necessary to play "what if" games with Michigan and the caucuses.  

"Look, it's becoming more obvious by every passing day that the hardcore Clinton supporters don't give a damn about reality. The whole thing is fluid to you, isn't it?

Disgusting."

This was uncalled for.  I have said many times Obama is likely to be the nominee because of the circumstances we have now.  That doesn't preclude me from analyzing the popular vote.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:03:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (2.00 / 2)

I liked this and I must say, you have convinced me.

I agree with you when you argue that the popular vote is a flawed metric and shouldn't be used to advertise either candidate.

Good work.


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:16:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The silliest talking point ever... (none / 0)

When the DNC decided it would enforce its rules, it did not do so with the caveat that they would only be enforced if the votes were not "legal and certified" by the offending state's electoral bodies.  

Yeah, they were legal and certified, but pretending they were fair and representative is a whole different story.

Voters may have come out, but many took the DNC at its word that the election wouldn't count for anything.  Pretending otherwise is NOT enfranchisement.

Since there is no practical significance to the "they were certified and Obama got zero votes in MI", we are left with the moral significance.  The  problem of course is that the popular vote as a moral argument is particularly silly because you are trying to convince (supers?) that there is any meaning behind Obama not having a single supporter in MI.


by Pragmatic Left on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:07:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The silliest talking point ever... (none / 0)

Ultimately, somehow there should be a way to credit Obama for his support in Michigan.

It's impossible to determine how much though.  If Hillary doesn't do as well as expected in Kentucky and Puerto Rico, then she will be winning the 50 state count as certified, but losing it depending on how many "Uncommitted" votes we imagine Obama to have received in Michigan.  Different imaginations will produce different results.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:25:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (none / 0)

Those republican secretary of states are your measure of legitimacy?  The same ones who went along with the republicans in Florida that screwed the Democrats? Ok. Nothing but spin.


by temptxan on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:32:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Precisely (1.50 / 2)

What is with all the troll ratings abuse in this thread?


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Even Though (2.00 / 2)

I disagree with some of your assessments, you are COMPLETELY right to question the troll ratings abuses.

We should disagree in here with our thoughts and our  comments, not through cheap ratings abuse...


by RNinNC on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SuperDelegates' votes subject to change... (none / 0)

By thinking John McCain isn't the republican nominee either.  Heck it was April when Bill Clinton claimed to be the democratic nominee.  

Come on, you all gotta do better than this.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:02:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SuperDelegates' votes subject to change... (none / 0)

You yourself have referred to McCain being the Republican nominee. Isn't it also possible that all of his pledged delegates change their mind and nominate me as the Republican candidate? When will you get it through your head that this thing isn't over until the convention.


by Brannon on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Alegre' (2.00 / 6)

Glad to know you haven't abandoned myDD - though I can't say that there is much point in trying to offer an alternative point of view at this point. Their minds are made up - don't you dare confuse them with the facts.
Thanks for the story.
by pan230oh on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:52:24 PM EST

Re: Thanks Alegre' (2.00 / 4)

Oh we'd be interested in facts.  Got any?


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:46:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks Alegre' (1.71 / 7)

Glad to know you haven't abandoned myDD -

You mean since she only has two diaries featuring the same worn-out spin and talking points on the rec list instead of her usual three, you thought she'd left?


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever. (1.66 / 6)

Alegre is a blogger for Hillary Clinton. She copies and pastes the talking points of the day. What makes you think she would not post this to Mydd??????


I support our nominee President Barack Obama - and the Admins can't stand me, so I can't rec or rate. This is very mean if you were to ask me.
by TheFullBerry on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks Alegre' (2.00 / 2)

Clinton supporters talking about facts - that's some rich irony.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

Ever see the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets promoted, accidents go down, and when Burns touts this Smithers notes that they decreased by the number Homer was proven or suspected to have caused?

That's the Clinton electability argument in a nutshell.  Half of all Clinton supporters are telling pollsters they'll vote for McCain, stay home, or don't know.  A quarter of Obama supporters are telling the same thing (which is also a ridiculously high number).

Shouldn't the first gauge superdelegates use to judge each candidate be the extent to which they're able to get their supporters in line?  Wouldn't that be a real test of leadership?  How hard is it to let supporters tell you how great you are?

Basic psychology says that threats like this generally don't work.  If that's the last ditch strategy of the Clinton campaign, well, that last ditch is where they'll end up.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:19:12 AM EST

Top Five Reasons to not Nominate Obama (2.00 / 5)

  1. Ohio
  2. Pennsylvania
  3. Florida
  4. Michigan
  5. West Virginia

Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:38:12 AM EST

Re: Top Five Reasons to not Nominate Obama (none / 0)

"1. Ohio"

I'll give you this, but Ohio hasn't been polled (by RealClearPolitics" at least since the end of April.

"2. Pennsylvania"

A Democrat wins this state no matter what.

"3. Michigan"
"4. Florida"

Hillary has a 1pt lead over McCain in Flordia, but she is currently polling to lose against him in Michigan, while Obama leads McCain by half a point there.

But, if you're talking about the "primaries" and not the current polling, then all I have to say is...yawn.

"5. West Virginia"

Clinton was polling to win as of Febuary, but I doubt she would do that well in November.


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:12:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Pennsylvania (2.00 / 2)

State polls month prior to a GE are only slight indicators of the state of the race.

Demographics and county-by-county results from previous elections and primaries, then viewed in light of national/state polls and local issues of concern, are the best sets of hard data available.  The state polls by themselves, you seem to be referencing, are of little value right now as anyone familiar with polling and election cycles can tell you.  

Pennsylvania is a disaster for Barack Obama, both in the primary and the general election.  I live here and I know dozens of Kerry voters who are "less than enthusiastic" (to put it mildly) about an Obama presidency.  What the primary told us about the GE is that Obama's message wasn't very persuasive in the critical Philadelphia suburbs or any city in the upstate aside from Harrisburg and Lancaster.  He also seems unable to penetrate the "bitter" voters (Pennsylvania unforgettably being the subject state for Obama's ad hoc sociology-based insult), women, or seniors, of which there are plenty in PA.  If he pulls out Pennsylvania, it will be because of a massive campaigning/spending/turnout effort.  Such an effort by Clinton wouldn't be necessary since PA loves her; her resources could be spent elsewhere rather than mired in this "lean blue" territory.  

It's cute and everything to see those one or two polls showing Obama doing well in Pennsylvania five months before the election, but poll numbers will fluctuate wildly while the more fixed demographic realities don't move so much.  

Michigan is a disaster for Dems this election generally, irrespective of the candidate.  Ditto for Florida, although only Hillary has a realistic chance there.  Based on the Electoral Map memo put out by Obama in April, they've all but thrown in the towel in Florida (and Ohio).  No amount of $ can get these people to like Obama.  

Hillary has several different paths to victory and can absorb losses more sturdily.  Obama on the other hand needs a perfect storm of everything going well in a chain of 7 or so small states that is as weak as its weakest link.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:41:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania (2.00 / 2)

If you're going to selectively jump between polls and demographics, then you're being disingenuous. If you're actually going to use those factors together, then Poblano is the gold standard: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

He presents a different analysis than you, indicating that PA is not, in fact, disaster for Obama.

You're claiming many things as fact without any data to back them up.


by Thadd Selden on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania (none / 0)

Poblano rules....


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:25:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania (none / 0)

Poblano's science is inexact.

The significance of Pennsylvania will become more clear to you as the race continues.  It will be a sore spot of insecurity in the Obama electoral strategy.  He's very unpopular here.  I'm talking about county by county returns, not polls.  

The signs will first become evident with rampant spending in PA and loads of visits by both candidates.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania (2.00 / 1)

Silly me. Poblano's science is inexact and your assessment based on gut feel and perception of your immediate surroundings is surely more accurate. I'm totally convinced.


by Thadd Selden on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:34:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania (none / 0)

I'm convinced too.  Obama will win Pennsylvania by 25% and he won't have to spend a dime or a moment of his time here.

rolls eyes

Check out CNN for the county-by-county results for the state in the past two presidential elections and this year's primary.

Look up Pennsylvania in the Census for some demographic insight.  

Thanks for your open mind.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pennsylvania (none / 0)

I'm not saying that Obama will win by 25% or even that he'll win PA at all. Poblano has it as one of his highest swing states and only a 62% win percentage out of 10,000 simulation runs (i.e. he loses PA 38 times out of every 100 runs). All I'm trying to do is keep people honest when cherry picking polls vs. demographics.

The other day I saw an Obama supporter do the same thing by citing polls to argue that Obama wins Colorado but Clinton does not. He/she then turned right around to claim that no Democrat can win Florida because of Demographics (when polls indicate Clinton has a chance there and she wins it 82% of the time via Poblano's analysis).

I cited Poblano because he takes both factors into account. While you are correct that he doesn't analyze at the county level, he has been the among the most accurate predictors thus far. He may be proven to be wrong when the GE rolls around, but I prefer his science (even if it's a bit inexact) to supporters cherry picking a blend of polls, demographics, and personal wishes to make predictions.


by Thadd Selden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Top Five Reasons to not Nominate Obama (none / 0)

Since Obama will win all of those but Florida nad West Virginia and since Obama will win Colorado, Nevada, Virginia, North Carolina, Iowa and New Mexico in addition to the Kerry states, his failure to win West Virginia's five electoral votes will be of little consolation to John McCain and Hillary Clinton when they return to the Senate or wherever they go after Obama becomes the 44th President.


by keithdarlingbrekhus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre GBCW and MyDD boycott coming soon (1.69 / 26)

By this time next week the bulk of MyDD will grudgingly accept the fact that Obama is the presumptive nominee.  Most Obama supporters will gladly extend a hand to Clinton supporters and we will all come back together into one dem fold.  One big happy family.  Most of us will recognize it was a hard fight and we are better for it.  Some cuts will take time to heal, but they will heal and we will work together.

But then there will be people like you.  Yes, I use terms 'people like you'.  You are officially a dead ender.  From what you have written it is more than apparent there is no scenario where Obama will hold legitimacy for you.  You have officially gone off the deep end.  People like you will demand to be appeased before you grace us with your enlightened support.  You will list a littany of delusional rants that raise your victimhood to the level of sainthood.  You will demand we all bend over backwards to accept this delusional reality you and the other dead enders have created.

Well, unless you meet us halfway, its not gonna happen.  Its called compromise and thats the way politics works.  If you must, please hold you breath, throw a tantrum, scream with your hands over your ears and take you ball home to Hillaryis44.  For if you dont meet us halfway, then good riddance.

I have tried to be nice and say that I hope you come around but I think you are too far gone.  This screed is awful, even by your normal standards.  Its just not even worth attempting to engage you anymore.

There is no reason within you; its smear, smear, smear and fear, fear, fear.  You dont even bother to disguise it anymore.

I hope you have that GBCW and boycott diary dusted off from DKos for MyDD because if MyDD holds true to its ideals (electing democrats) its going to a very rapid swing behind Obama and this vitriol wont be allowed.  

Honest debate will always be welcomed and it wont be an Obama lovefest, but it will not welcome this type of pure garbage.

In the end, I just dont get you.  Honestly I dont.  You have zero intellectual honesty left in what you post.  Zero.  You are a Hillary sycophant not a democract.  And Obama supporters are cultists?  Please.  Pot meet kettle.


by pattonbt on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:49:54 AM EST

Re: Alegre GBCW and MyDD boycott coming soon (2.00 / 4)

Harsh but has to be said.

Mojo'd.


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre GBCW and MyDD boycott coming soon (none / 0)

Nice unity position.  Uprating someone who calls out and vilifies another MyDD diarist.


by Montague on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre GBCW and MyDD boycott coming soon (2.00 / 8)

I might not have been that brutal about it, but, um, yeah.
And this is coming from a Clinton person. (who sees the need for unity)
Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre GBCW and MyDD boycott coming soon (none / 0)

I lol'd at your sig line...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Chill for a second (2.00 / 2)

It should be obvious to anyone watching the tensions here that one of the main issues Hillary's supporters have with this nomination is the hasty presumption that it's "over" and that Obama is 100% certain to be the nominee.

A lot of us, myself included, have publicly said we follow Hillary until she says the race is over and then we support the Dem.  If it turns out she concedes and it happens under transparent and "fair" terms, there will be a big appetite for unity among her supporters.  Things happen and change very quickly in this telecommunications-driven election year and given that, there's no reason to "rush" Clinton supporters into a decision on a race that is legitimately still pending.

Trying to silence people who have strong opinions in favor of Clinton is not helpful to the Democratic cause.  The most obvious effect is that it causes us to wonder, "gee, maybe we are aligned with these people on some policy issues but we're actually a lot different than we thought."  If Obama is nominated, he's not doing himself any favors by having his supporters giving half of the party a cultural and political identity crisis.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:07:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chill for a second (2.00 / 5)

"If it turns out she concedes and it happens under transparent and "fair" terms, there will be a big appetite for unity among her supporters."

The problem is there's nothing whatsoever that the hardcore supporters of Clinton believe is "fair" if it doesn't benefit their candidate.

They complain about Michigan and Florida when they know that whether you seat them or not, it's not enough to cover Obama's lead -- they complain about caucus states (they're supposedly unfair simply because Hillary decided not to compete in them) -- they complain about SDs following their own judgment, rather than obeying Hillary's opinions about electability -- they complain about the popular vote, when they knew from the start popular vote counts for nothing in the process.

They complain about the black bloc vote in southern states, they complain about the activist vote in caucuses, they complain about the independent vote in open primaries, they complain about the 'egghead' vote everywhere.

So basically the hardcore supporters of Clinton won't accept any result as fair that puts Obama ahead. They haven't so far, why should they do so in the future?

The "we will accept a fair result" argument is a mere chimera, when you don't specify what's the criteria for this fairness.


by Aris Katsaris on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chill for a second (2.00 / 1)

A fair result obviously wouldn't exclude 2.3 million voters for the sake of "having a smoother calendar in 2012."  

Ideally, the fair result would be the one where the winner of the popular vote and pledged delegates were the same, but that's not likely.  It would be great if the candidate had a demonstrably better chance at winning in an electoral map-based GE strategy as well but that's also not likely at this point.

Practically speaking, at this point, a fair result would incorporate Michigan and Florida fully and would be rendered shortly after June 3.  Given that Obama is winning even with MI & FL counted, they should be seated fully.  Whole person = half a vote doesn't sit well with me.  

In all seriousness, Obama winning with full delegations seated and after MT/SD weigh in, with a few days for supers to digest the results, would be legitimate.  It would have been particularly helpful if the media hadn't declared a winner as well.    


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:11:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chill for a second (2.00 / 1)

My only worry about seating MI and FL with full delegations is the same as it was since we first started this debate months ago... we would, in essence, be declaring "open season" on the rules set by the DNC for 2012's election...

If other states see MI and FL violate the rules with zero consequences, what will preclude them from doing the same thing..?

There has to be some sort of sanction.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:31:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chill for a second (2.00 / 1)

Keep in mind that both states' legislative intents of bringing an economic boon and early primary influence was completely nullified.  

The punishment, if any, needs to be directed at the future legislators who flout the rules, not on the voters.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:43:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chill for a second (2.00 / 1)

Completely nullified?

Hardly, they were just transformed to persistent influence all the way to the end of the primaries, until even now when they can mathematically affect it no longer (because Obama's the winner anyway), they're still being discussed, brought up, they're still affecting every single thread in the blogosphere.


by Aris Katsaris on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Chill for a second (none / 0)

I disagree.

Had the Florida and Michigan primaries been incorporated fully when they occurred, Hillary would have amassed a tidal wave of momentum that would have carried her through Super Tuesday unscathed.

Omitting those states allowed Obama to acquire an early front-runner status that benefitted him in Wisconsin and many Super Tuesday states.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alignment (2.00 / 1)

Just want to tell you that I find your comments to this diary exemplary--you are assertive, yet calm.  Very much appreciated.

You raise an important point here, at least to me:

"Trying to silence people who have strong opinions in favor of Clinton is not helpful to the  democratic cause.  The most obvious effect is that it causes us to wonder, 'gee, maybe we are aligned with these people on some policy issues but we're actually a lot different than we thought.'  If Obama is nominated, he's not doing himself any favors by having his supporters giving half of the party a cultural and political identity crisis."

I put this out there not as a threat, but as a new, and unexpected, reality: for the first time ever, I am questioning my Democratic allegiance.  

It may be a good thing.  I think it is directly related to the new world of Internet politics.  I've gone online, read more articles and opinion pieces from newspapers/magazines across the country, seen more video of actual speeches, and yes, become a semi-participant in this sort of  discussion.  I have gotten invested at the primary level to a much deeper degree than ever before, and I care more than I ever have.  I really, really wanted to see a woman in the Oval Office, and Hillary's eminently qualified.  It has certainly been eye-opening to see my candidate derided and dismissed by Democrats using rehashed Republican smears and called a racist, to boot.  It has been quite sobering to find myself stereotyped and marginalized as a meaningless and unneeded demographic ("old feminist female").

I have always voted straight Democratic ticket ("platform not personality").  Coping with the negativity toward my preferred candidate this time around has loosened my sense of obligation to support the  probable nominee and "liberated" me to reassess, at a much deeper level, where I stand NOW (comparing my own circumstances and opinions with what non-partisan experts have to say about our economy, health care, the environment, foreign policy).

What I find myself wanting is a new political party.  Ideally it would meld the moderates from both sides following socially liberal but   semi-conservative/responsible fiscal ideals that include regulation of the corporate world and policy based on non-partisan, sound practice and empirical evidence.

Yeah, probably a pipedream...

In lieu of that and in the meantime, I find myself much more inclined to split ticket (depending on the issues) at both the national and local level, and I'm more willing to support third party candidates (I, who was once furious at Nader, am furious no longer: I can now understand even voting for third party candidates who can't possibly win).

Maybe I'm an aberration, but probably not. I've generally found that I'm not as unique as I'd like to think, so I suspect that there are many like me who've also done some serious reassessment. Does it matter?  Who knows?

Perhaps those proclaiming a major demographic realignment of the Democratic party are correct.  McCain is certainly an unusual choice for the Republican party, so it may be going on there, too.  I'm certainly open, for the first time in my life, to looking at things differently.  So who knows, maybe a major political realignment is in the works.  It will be interesting.    
   


by ahw on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alignment (2.00 / 1)

Thank you for your response.

You write:

"I put this out there not as a threat, but as a new, and unexpected, reality: for the first time ever, I am questioning my Democratic allegiance."

I am experiencing the same phenomenon as well, and the solution you propose, a third Centrist party, is something I also believe would give a voice to fiscal & social moderates like us.  At least in the Northeast where I live, "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" seems to be extremely popular.  

When the furthest wings of either party (GOP-Evangelicals, Dem-Neoliberals) hijack it, the damage is immense to the brand and longterm.  Obama is unable to claim any mandate or moral victory and most of his supporters realize this and hence are adamant to stymie dissent.  

I see the 2008 general election as an exploration of the following question:

Is the most unfavorable GOP-environment in decades leverage enough to propel a McGovern Coalition to victory?

Or

Is the McGovern Coalition so inherently toxic to America that even under its most favorable circumstances, does it still fail?

Rather than simply winning the election, I fear the Democrats are, on a macro level, playing roulette by testing this.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BPK80 (none / 0)

I agree, the tone of my post was harsh...but what choice do I have?  There is zero reason left.  There is no rational argument left.  This screed was nothing but a whiny moan fest based on delusional slights and half cooked opinions with no foundation in reality meant as an attempt to slam the soon to be presumptive nominee of the democratic party.  Nothing more.  It was a hateful attack and it is part of a pattern from this diarist.

I leave one off attacks alone as people sometimes need to blow off steam (I do.  Every day I start to write a diary about how pissed I am about this process and then I stop and dont post it for it is generally just blowing off steam).  But this diarist does it multiple times a day every day.

So I will attack those who perpetually keep up the slime.

I disagree with much of what you write and how you write it (as I am sure you probably do with me) but at the same time many points you make are valid and worth having a rational discussion over.  I will any day have a rational argument about the candidates, their campaigns, their strengths, their weaknesses, etc.

I am not a cultist and I recognize that Obama has weaknesses and Clinton has strengths.  I think Hillary has some formidable arguments to make regarding electability but I also believe Obama does as well.  I just wish both sides dead enders would be more honest in their brokering - and this diarist is no longer honest.

My dislike of Clinton is 100% AUMF - I vowed I would never support a candidate in a primary who voted for that (even with contrition and apology).  But after the primary level and a GE candidate is selected its all D.  I will quickly, but slightly grudgingly, pull that level for Clinton if she is the nominee.  I will never waiver on that.

My problem with Alegre and many of the dead enders is its not about democrats anymore its about Clinton delusion and Obama hate.  Its almost as if Obama has to apologize for having the gall to beat Clinton.  How dare he beat her!!!!!!

All this garbage that people have built up as 'fact' on how sexist, thugish, hateful, etc. Obama and his campaign have been are just not borne out by any facts.  Both campaigns and their surrogates have made minor lapses and character attacks, I will not deny, but to imply such hateful characteristics to Obama and his campaign (and saintly ones to Clinton) is beyond the pale.

I just hate this riled up victimhood and this perceived slight that somehow Obama owed Clinton the nomination and that he should apologize for winning.

He did exactly what he set out to do, win the nomination by the process as it was set up.  And somehow this has become cheating and stealing from Clinton?  Again, how dare Obama win!!!!!!!

So I will gladly have a fact based conversation (with Im sure some emotion, snark and pettiness throw in for fun) with you about how I see things.  We will probably agree to disagree on many points (some probably vehemently) but I will also hope that when the process is run we will all come back together.

As I said, Im not going to apologize for Obama winning.  I am not going to give ANY credence to any of the BS victimhood that is delusionally being built up.  This childish temper tantrum stuff should rightfully be swatted down for what it is and I will not give it one ounce of credibility.

I am going to, however, offer a hand and meet halfway.

But when I see garbage like this I am going to tear it down for what it is.  100% garbage.


by pattonbt on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:12:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BPK80 (none / 0)

Thank you for your comment.

I'm always happy to discuss the state of the race objectively.  If the race were factually over (which it is not), I would probably not be bothered as much with dishonest premature proclamations of victory.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:05:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BPK80 (none / 0)

I tend to agree that Obama should not declare 'victory' at least until the last primary is held.  We have made it this far and hopefully FL and MI will get settled on May 31 (Im sure neither camps die hards will be pleased with the outcome, but compromise will rule the day) so why not wait.  Plus id rather wait until he hits the actual number with supers and all.  And we wont know the magic number until MI and FL or agreed.

But I am very concerned with letting it go open to the convention.  Id like to start ramping up the GE, we need to get the spotlight on McCain as quickly as possible.  He is absolutely awful and either Obama or Clinton would shred him one on one.

Going a bit further OT - my biggest problem has been this drawn out primary (although Im glad about the upside of every state/territory counting, that is awesome).  But here online, most of us are all highly informed voters, we already knew the policy positions and general stances of the candidates and made our choices long ago.  So all we have really had time to do for the last few months is bicker about unimportant crap.  Its a chicken and the egg thing and who knows where it began, but its been picking up momentum the last few months and getting worse and worse.  

And the problem is with having two good candidates going head to head for so long who are so similar on policy, the arguments have veered into tabloid stuff.  And we cant help ourselves but fall into it.  Really we probably should have all tuned out two months ago hit snooze for June 10th and come back then.  But weve let the camps harden and now we are at each others throats threatening to tear the party apart if we dont get our own way.

So my big hope to come of this primary is that future primaries have a shorter/tighter calendar but make it so we always get a good chance of letting all states/territories matter.

So I'll do my best to keep it civil and rational, but I do plan on calling out those who veer off that path (and feel free to do the same to me when I do it).

Cheers.


by pattonbt on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:57:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre GBCW and MyDD boycott coming soon (none / 0)

I wish I could rec this post 1,000,000 times....

Great post. Needed to be said. Alegre truly is a dead-ender.


by Deano963 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Donald Rumsfeld's Guide to Conflict Resolution (none / 0)

Table of Contents

  1. Condescention
  2. Name Calling
  3. Sarcasm
  4. Threats

***A
Take your noblesse oblige bullshit and shove it!


by adrienne4dean on Tue May 20, 2008 at 03:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Too late (none / 0)

Even if the superdelegates somehow overturn Obama's pledged delegate lead at the last hour, there will still be a tremendous backlash from angry Obama supporters. In that situation Clinton will have no chance whatsoever of winning the general election. At least Obama has a pretty decent shot right now, though obviously not as high as I'd like.


by Korha on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:05:08 AM EST

Full disclosure please. . . (1.75 / 4)

It's hard to respond to a diary full of opinion and "concern."  So I won't.  I will ask that you disclose fully that you are volunteering on behalf of the Clinton campaign with this diary so that people understand where you're coming from.  A lot of comments here mention how you may be a dead ender or somehow delusional.  Explaining that you are parotting Clinton campaign talking points as a volunteer would go a long way in explaining your motives and keeping such vile comments out of the responses.


by shalca on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:35:41 AM EST

Dear Diary: "I Heart Hillary" (2.00 / 10)

This diary is rife with assumptions and low on logic. It confuses assertions with facts. It's a starstruck "dear diary" entry without regard for critical thinking. It's a fan letter to Hillary and a poison pen letter to Obama. It wants Obama to fail in the general so it can say, "I told you so, you should have voted for my idol, Hillary". It would rather be right about Hillary and have McCain win, than get our kids out of Iraq and actually do something about cleaning up the mess of the last eight years.
Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:39:40 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.27 / 11)

Hahaha.  I didn't even read this bullshit, I never do, but I love an opportunity to call out this Paid Blogger Alegre.

Alegre the paid-talking-point-reiterator-free-adver tising-did i mention paid-robot strikes again!

No, people, there is no Santa Clause.

And by Santa Clause I mean President Hillary Clinton.

And by President Hillary Clinton I mean never, unless coincidentally 100 years down the road a woman with the same name happens to become President.  Which would be wacky.  

Sen. Clinton couldn't beat the rookie of the year.  Any and all arguments concerning her being a "better" fit for the nomination stop here, with this single fact.  She couldn't beat the guy who should have been by all accounts been easiest to beat.

How can the brand not beat the rookie?  How?

Previous great statements made by other people about bullshit paid blogger Alegre, for good measure:

"After listening to the conference call and seeing that there are a number of bloggers simply working for the Clinton campaign and propagating their talking points I have to say that you've lost all credibility with me.This is especially a shock after you pushed an unsubstantiated rumor about 400 so called Obama bloggers.  I always thought people that called you a Clinton shill were simply being mean.  But nope, it's true."

"You see, here's the difference between me and Alegre: I think she works for the campaign, but I have no factual basis for that, only rumors. So I say so up front, just like I did in my post.She, on the other hand, repeats verbatim a completely unsubstantiated smear as if it were fact, and then has the nerve to be self-righteous about it when the admins here have one of their occasional fits of even-handedness and delete the smear from the diary. Then you and others attack Obama supporters for suggesting the same thing she did in her diary.  Pathetic."

"The fact is that she blogs on behalf of the campaign.  She might have blogged on her own because she believes in Senator Clinton.  But, right now she blogs for the campaign and she should disclose that tidbit of information in her diaries.  People constantly question her use of Hillary's website as a source for the majority of her diaries and disclosing that she is blogging oj behalf of the campaign would explain that.  It would also let us know that Alegre is not presenting her opinion for discussion, but being entirely partisan on behalf the candidate she works for.If you phone bank for a candidate you tell the person you're calling who you are, why you're calling and which campaign you're working for.  You don't get on the phone and pretend to be some concerned citizen.Not disclosing that she is actually volunteering on behalf of the campaign when she blogs (and then ask for donations) is entirely dishonest."


by AlexScott on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:42:50 AM EST

Sorry, nonsense from start to finish (2.00 / 2)

How much "experience" did Hillary have when she voted for Bush's war?

 Guys there are just too many gifts to the rethug 527s out there and you know as well as I that they'll do their level best to exploit each and every one of them to their advantage.

You all seriously need to get over this fantasy that "she's been vetted". McCain won't be fighting with one hand tied behind his back for fear of offending your delicate sensibilities.


by BlueinColorado on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:57:10 AM EST

I don't answer rhetorical questions (2.00 / 8)

and sorry to say, that's all this is:

I've been asking this for months but no one's ever been able to answer me... Just HOW do Axelrod and company plan on responding to those ads by the 527s when they roll them out?

You're not interested in an answer, you're interested in a talking point.   There's literally no answer you're ever going to be satisfied with, at least not now.... so why bother?


by zonk on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:18:34 AM EST

Re: I don't answer rhetorical questions (none / 0)

Is this really the time for rhetorical questions?  :)


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Doom and Gloom (2.00 / 3)

"This means the superdelegates have the power and obligation to decide who will be the best, most electable candidate for our party."

That is exactly what the super delegates are doing. The world is not going to end because you didn't get your way. We have been hearing the predictions of an imminent Obama implosion for months.

You were wrong about the primaries and you are wrong about the general. A majority of the voters have confirmed that and soon a majority of the 'automatic' delegates will confirm it. You know the super delegates who have the experience and superior judgment on matters like these according to Hillary and all her supporters until they figured out she was not going to get their support.

Obama has already beat the toughest candidate this election cycle. Hillary has raised more money, gotten more votes and has built a bigger and better organization then McCain. The Clintons are slicker, smarter and better campaigners then McCain. Hillary also had one huge advantage that McCain does not have, she is a Democrat in a year when the Republicans can't even win in Mississippi. Despite all that Hillary was bested by Obama.

Hillary will be joining with the rest of the party in a few weeks working for an Obama victory in the fall.


by hankg on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:36:57 AM EST

New Strategy? (2.00 / 1)

Be scared of the Republicans! Let them create the narrative for a campaign! Let them dictate who the Democratic Party selects as a nominee because they are so so scary they will just rip her or him apart!

Come on, there's better reasons to support Clinton than this. The GOP and its affliated groups will roll out terrible, misleading advertisements against either candidate. They already tried it in 2 districts against Obama and it didn't work. For some reason, I'm not so scared of them this time around.


by irish09 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:46:10 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

Way to go.

Stay positive.

Seriously, how is it you think you are able to make a coherent argument.  Let's assume a worst case scenario and then preemptively criticize those who made it happen?

Thank you for doing a disservice to reasonable discourse.


by masterxi43 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:58:09 AM EST

See, here's the thing alegre (2.00 / 4)

Once Obama officially secures the nomination, you will be proven COMPLETELY WRONG about Clinton winning the nomination.  All the confident talk, all the inevitability nonsense, all the "she WILL win in the end", etc.  COMPLETELY WRONG.

Given that...

Given that you got the Democratic primary totally backwards.

Given that your prognostications were so poor.

Given that the supers still continue to go to Obama, using their judgment to pick the better candidate.

Given ALL that...

Why the HELL would we listen to you doomin'-n-gloomin' about Obama's chances against McCain?

Why the HELL would anyone listen to the same overly confident people who blew the outcome of the primary?

Why the HELL would a single person give creedence to your predictions?

SERIOUSLY: When Obama is officially the nominee, take some time and reexamine your analysis (hell, your analytical skills at the most basic level) and become open to the possibility that you do not know what will happen in November.

Thanks


by Slim Tyranny on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:12:46 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.50 / 4)

Obama won. Clinton lost. It's time to move on and defeat McCain.


by AuthorEditor on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:17:22 AM EST

Doom song (1.33 / 3)

I don't need to change the lyrics even as the lyrics are:

Doom Doom doom doom doom doom doom Doom Doom doom doom doom doom doom Doom Doom doom doom doom doom doom Doom Doom doom doom doom doom doom (continued for 6 months straight.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:27:39 AM EST

What an offensive article (1.16 / 6)

This is very typical of white women though and I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  I was in Puerto Rico this weekend and they are none to thrilled with Hillary's race baiting and no they do not relate to nonsense like this article. Do not be surprised when she loses Puerto Rico.


by sweet potato pie on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:30:53 AM EST

Re: What an offensive article (none / 0)

Care to expand on that...?

I haven't heard anything about it....


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an offensive article (2.00 / 1)

The major parties in Puerto Rico are behind Obama and they are in full force with their machines.  Also, there are a lot of black puerto ricans on the island and they have not been thrilled with what they have been reading in the newspapers about Hillary. Many of them know that she is going to lose and alot of them also relate to Obama because of his multiracial background. They are not like the Hispanics here in the states and the media is about to look like fools come June 1st. Obama is also going to Puerto Rico before the primary.


by sweet potato pie on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an offensive article (none / 0)

But Black Puerto Ricans don't count as much as Hispanic Puerto Ricans... as long as they stick with Hillary!


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What an offensive article (none / 0)

What an offensive article? What an offensive comment! Ugly. Even if the article was crap.
McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

"She's earned the right to be heard without being trashed".

So, what is the calculation here, if she says something absurd you are not allowed to trash her because that would be dishonouring those who died in 9/11, it would mean the terrorists win or something?

One of reasons she gave for the superdelegates to reject Senator Obama was that "No Democrat has won the WH since 1916 without winning West Virginia".

Well, no Democrat has won the WH since forever without being a white male - but it would be absurd to say because of that the superdelegates should pick Senator Edwards.

Yes, I do respect Kristen Breitweiser for the way that she "hounded Congress" - but hounding Congress is not a virtue exclusive to Senator Clinton's supporters, nor is it some sort of extra qualification for determining who is electable in the next general election.

But I bet more than a few of Senator's Clinton's supporters who have hounded Congress in the past are right now preparing to find ways to ensure that Obama can win the general election.


by My Ob on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:38:21 AM EST

I read this (2.00 / 6)

And as for the superdelegates, just an FYI, we have the list with your names, you will be held accountable on Election Day and beyond, too. This time around, everybody's going to be looking for accountability.

And all I see is a threat for revenge.  Petty revenge.  


by xyz on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:46:54 AM EST

Obama "broke it" by running? (2.00 / 2)

A great example of the sense of entitlement that turns so many off. The threats are good too - maybe Breitweiser should email a super. I imagine Obama will respond to the 527 ads similarly to how Clinton would respond to 527 ads about Tuzla, Yucaipa, and her brother's pardon-buying. Hillary Clinton is so much smarter and saner than that subset of her supporters that are bent on whining and embarrassing themselves.
by JJE on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:53:08 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

I think that your desire will be met and that superdelegates will listen closely to diaries such as these, and will come out faster for one of the candidates than they might have otherwise.


by Pat Flatley on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:13:12 AM EST

Re: Alegre (2.00 / 1)

I really respect your unwavering support for Sen. Clinton -- even with all her struggles.  That's why I'm so much looking forward to having you back on Barack Obama's team in the general election against Sen. McCain.


by Brad G on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:13:26 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Guys, come on.  Don't be afraid.  Do we really need this kind of self-defeating negativity?  Listen gang, we've got to decide whether we are pursuing a progressive agenda or functioning as conservative fellow travelers.  Guys, I really don't think it serves us to do everything we can to amplify the liabilities and downplay the assets of our party's likely nominee.  We can do better than this.  For ourselves, our country, the world, and for our sweet sweet children.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:22:07 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

You're missing the point here, it's not about being progressive.  It's not about the issue.  Hell, even Roe v. Wade doesn't matter.  For Alegre all that matters is Hillary.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Super delegates, hear us! We want a winner in November. The only one who can win against McCain is Hillary Clinton. She has the experience and the know-how to be president. The other candidate does not have experience nor the know-how. I could not possibly vote for the other candidate in November.


by LA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:27:50 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

My buddy is voting purely based on experience in Washington alone, absent any other consideration.  He's going to write in Cheney/Rumsfeld in November.  He's overwhelmed with their Washington experience.


by Pat Flatley on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:44:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Here us, overturn the results of all those little caucuses in a super caucus! Ignore contested battles and only focus on the uncontested ones! Forget the rules from the beginning, we need new ones! And if I don't get my way John McCain should be allowed to appoint 2-3  Supreme Court justices!

Wow!


by IowaMike on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Doesn't McCain have more experience than Hillary?


by IowaMike on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:45:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (1.50 / 4)

Yawn. I see this Jersey Girl's got about as much reach and sense as the movie of the same name; and I'm a Kevin Smith fan. Here, Alegre, just for you:


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:40:07 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

I know these sorts of things are popular at Fark, but how do you think this furthers the discussion here?


by souvarine on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

This is more in-tune with a witty rejoinder towards someone who's doing the internet version of holding their hands against their ears and going "LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Besides, it was singularly obnoxious to adopt the 9/11-I'm-right-if-not-then-9/11 tack, and calling for petty revenge. She's saying, for example, she doesn't have to help or do anything to elect Barack Obama, and it won't be her fault if he loses. I guess if she wants to sit out, that's fine. But then when he does win, she can sit on the sidelines for eight years and watch.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Posting off-topic pictures is the internet version of holding your hands against your ears and going "LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" It's not a witty rejoinder, it's grade school I know you are but what am I. At least obamaovermccain's picture is tangentially relevant and cool to see.

Breitweiser has credibility not because she is a 9/11 widow, but because she is a 9/11 widow who fought for the truth against powerful opponents. Your attempt to reduce her to a victim is wrong-headed.


by souvarine on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

I'm not talking about her at all, I'm talking about Alegre. She essentially made the claim that since this woman has the experience you cited, she can't be questioned on anything she says. BS, obviously. Besides, that picture is perfectly on-topic with what Alegre was talking about- blame. Remember?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:15:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In your own words: (2.00 / 1)

Talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point talking point!

"Turn out the lights the party's over."


by IowaMike on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:41:33 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 4)

Come November, the media and the Democratic party will blame the American people for the loss and chalk it up as racism. They will ignore the fact that Obama was an extremely flawed candidate to begin with.


by soyousay on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:44:47 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Kind of like Clinton surrogates (Ferraro) have started to blame her loss on sexism?  Even though it's because she was an extremely flawed candidate who ran an extremely flawed campaign.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:47:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

FYI; Ferraro doesn't have anything to do with the Clinton campaign.


by soyousay on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

That's why I said Clinton surrogate, not Clinton campaign member.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:22:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

We have nearly survived 8 years of Cheney/Rove/Bush.
The GOP is lost in MISSISSIPPI.
If you folks are truly afraid that the GOP will beat us on any level this year, it is time for you to walk away from your obsessions.
The GOP jackhammer to our "life, liberty, and pursuit" has broken down.
Any of the Democratic Candidates (maybe even Gravel)would beat McCain like a 3 egg omelet.
So you can either spend the next 6 months bleating to yourself "woe is us" or get busy as we chisel the tombstone of the McCain Candidacy.

"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:48:53 AM EST

By your logic it's (2.00 / 1)

Obama < McCain < Hillary

But then:

Obama > Hillary

Shouldn't it actually look like this:

McCain < Hillary < Obama?


by Tatan on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:56:46 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

the Democratic nominee by math not by sensibility

Delegates, then popular vote, then electability, now... "sensibility"?  Really, folks, when you're riffing off Jane Austen, you've run out of metrics.
Can't rec or rate -- next username, please!
by neeborMolgula on Mon May 19, 2008 at 09:57:15 AM EST

The Shield (2.00 / 4)

Alegre, has now picked up the 9-11 shield Rudy dropped in FL.

Can't criticize her... 9-11, 9-11, 9-11.


by Tatan on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:01:02 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 2)

alegre's right, we need to trash this whole 'voting' principle and just give the nomination to the person she likes.

Sorry for the snark, but so many of your arguments about states that count have been debunked so many times, and it is really time to move on.

I hope when Barack is the nominee we can count on the support of Clinton and her passionate supporters, because the alternative - a divided party, fewer wins downticket - would be pretty depressing.

As far as Obama losing? I seriously doubt it, and if the aim is to ensure that happens then... I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.


by amsterdem on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:01:11 AM EST

A different take on it (2.00 / 2)

And this is in no ways meant to disrespect Hillary, but rather my personal opinion, but I would rather lose with the right candidate than win with the wrong candidate.

In all honesty though I would not buy into those GE polls right now folks.

McCain is inflated in them right now because he has been uncontested. If with a completely free ride he is struggling for 50% he is pretty fucked when the democratic nomination is locked up.

I am pretty certain that either Barack or Hillary would clobber him in the general. The environment is too toxic for the GOP. Bush and crew have tainted the GOP brand so badly it might take them a generation to recover.


by Jon Niola on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:05:42 AM EST

Re: A different take on it (none / 0)

I agree with your take on this. One of the reasons that this primary has been so hard fought is that whoever is the Democratic nominee is likely to be the next president. Even Republicans are saying that their brand is so toxic that if it were dog food they would take it off the grocery store shelves.


by blue jersey mom on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They clearly don't believe that Clinton (none / 0)

is substantially more electable but I bet your constant threats are doing more harm than good so keep it up.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:06:04 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

A man women can support?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQU0TF18Z fI
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:22:04 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

But cannot support this man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCifpbfQl OM&feature=related
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:25:00 AM EST

Wrong title (none / 0)

I would have gone with:

Jersey Girl FAILS IT

It's nice to see SusanUnPC is picking up work as a ghostwriter, though.


by Rumproast on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:32:37 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

This argument just does not matter anymore.  Obama is the nominee.  Obama is ahead in every single possible metric [that sane people use] and the SDs are going over to him every single day.


by rf7777 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:49:01 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Looks like the Obama people followed you Alegre.


by ellend818 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:57:51 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

It's a shame that, after the good work she did, Ms. Breitweiser now resorts to throwing a tantrum and making threats because she didn't get her way.

And to do so, she bolsters McCain, buying into the "maverick" theme (looks like someone needs to actually think for herself), while trashing Obama supporters as superficial in their choice.  Never mind that McCain is as much like Bush in his policy choices as Obama is not.  Never mind that some Obama supporters had very serious and deeply rooted reasons to support candidates other than Senator Clinton.  Kristen Breitweiser disagrees, so it must be wrong!  Yeah...and Obama supporters are the ones with an ego problem.


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:59:38 AM EST

Time to stop the over the top (2.00 / 3)

"Obama can't win" hype.   We have a stalemated election, where the Superdelegates have to do their job and pick a nominee.  They are picking Obama.  It is a good pick.   I would have preferred Clinton or really Kucinich.  But they're doing their job.   It is silly to claim that Obama won't or can't win in the fall.  It is silly to say that McCain will represent more change than either Obama or Clinton will.   It is silly to accuse the SD's of abdicating their duty by going with the candidate who has the most pledged delegates.  Could they have gone with likely PV winner Clinton?  Yes.  But it's not silly for them to choose Obama.

Time to face facts.  Obama


by activatedbybush on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:01:28 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

ya break it ya own it.  Hillary could prevail, but if he gets it however the means, it's his and his followers, good luck to them, they've had a lot already, they'd better work their asses off and actually get him elected, or the consequences won't favor their immortal souls.


just say it: Medicare for All
by anna shane on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:03:32 AM EST

Shame on Hillary supporters (none / 0)

Alegre, shame on you for continuing to support the strongest and best candidate to win in the general election. Shame, shame, shame on you for your shameless promotion of the strongest best hope for Democrats to win back the White House. Have you no shame at all. You are a shameless human being and a wanton narrow minded woman who only cares about nominating electable Democrats who are experienced, qualified, and best ready to lead.  Your dedication to the Democratic Party is disgusting and will not be tolerated. Now, with that said, please help us prop up Obama. We need all the help we can get.

/snark


by grlpatriot on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:08:37 AM EST

Support vs Delusion (none / 0)

I have no qualms with anyones dedicated support of their preferred candidate.  I have said many times before I admire (and am now somewhat creeped out by) Alegre's (and others) support of Clinton.

I myself was a lukewarm Richardson supporter who came to Obama only after Iowa.  Im a little more than lukewarm on Obama but in the end I just want a dem to win.

Thats all we should all really want.  I know we want our preferred candidate and believe our preferred candidate will be the best, but only one gets to run.  The process was followed and the one has basically been chosen.

So I dont denigrate anyones support of their candidate.  But I will denigrate anyone who then put that candidate above the rightful nominee, especially when done so out of delusion and baseless, factless opinions and faux victimhood.

There is a point where support of the candidate
must give way to support of the party - and if it doesnt then you freely admit being a democrat is not as important as following your candidate.  Thats a perfectly acceptable stance.  If you feel your party has left you and you must follow your conscience then that is your decision and I wish you well.

So I respect you and almost half of the party who believe Clinton would be a better president.  I respect you think she will more handily beat McCain.  I respect you believe Obama will lose.

I respectfully disagree with what you believe as long as that respect is given in return.  But when it starts to come down to tantrums, threats and childish behavior and faux victimhood and tearing down the nominee, then I will go after someone in a less respectful way.

This site is, theoretically, here to elect democrats.  Like it or not, the party is going to nominate Obama.  Obama and Clinton will both be good progressive presidents and policy-wise are very very similar.  Both would do a great job.

So there is no reason for a democrat to not get behind Obama.  I know it hurts when your candidate loses and you believe the other is weak - I was for Dean and didnt like Kerry.  It took me a couple of weeks but I got on the Kerry train and bucked up because D unity is more important than my petty hurt feelings.

So if you and other Clinton supporters call yourselves democracts, the time is coming for you to put democrats first and Hillary second.  If you feel you can not do this, then so be it but I hope you will leave this site and go to Hillaryis44 or if you stay at least be honest brokers for the change you want (while not trying to disingenuously tear down our nominee) as this site is meant to elect democrats.  

I dont expect MyDD to just be an Obama lovefest.  I love this place because in some small corners you can still get good honest disagreement and debate.  I welcome other opinions about Obama - as long as they are genuine, tactful and somewhat based in reality.  None of us will ever agree 100% on everything and it would be a boring place if we did (part of why I dont go to Kos as much anymore).  But we are here to elect democrats and in the end we should all get behind the party and work together.

Trust me - I do feel your pain.  That is not just me trying to suck up and be falsely sympathetic.  I have felt lackluster for the last 8 years with the candidates we have put up and for the first time I am excited.  I will do my best to meet all Clinton supporters halfway and extend an olive branch.  But if that gesture is not meet in an open and honest attempt for reconciliation, then I say good day to you.


by pattonbt on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am sittingon 527 ad about Hillary (none / 0)

and how she lead the crisis center for Waco.

Shall we duel Alegre?

You roll out your best 527 against Obama, I'll roll out how Hillary order babies burned in Texas.

Seriously, wanna dance?

I mean, why does Hillary want babies to burn?


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:14:04 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Why do you expect the super's to suddenly alter the course they have been on since Super Tuesday?  I have not seen much of any Super movement towards her at all since then.


by Bobby Obama on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:14:10 AM EST

Disagree (none / 0)

I thought Breitweiser's piece was divisive, harsh and intended to spark resentment and split the party.

She's basically telling Democrats that she is voting for McCain over Obama and wants others to join her:

Clearly, Obama cannot run on "change" since McCain corners the market on "change" and being a "maverick outsider". More to the point, McCain, unlike Obama, actually has the long and very real record proving that he is, indeed, an outsider and a maverick bucking the system. Flatly, Obama does not have that same record or proof.

Will it be the economy? Given Obama's lackluster appeal to the lower-income and working class, I sure hope not. I can see the commercials now--it will not take a lot of effort to get the disenfranchised lunch-pail liberals to identify with a hard-worker like John McCain as compared to the elitist, Starbuck-drinking, RedBull swilling, arugula-eating, Blackberry-carrying Obama.

I don't see how that get us anywhere.

Alegre, how can you have the privilege of being on a recorded conference call with HRC and Peter Daou and then turn around today and valorize an Op/Ed that is basically telling people to vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee?

That's a real question for you and Peter and Senator Clinton. Is this the message Hillary Clinton wants to send?:

McCain has his real record, history, and even his family to prove his sound leadership and true patriotism. And Obama merely has his words, hope and the video of his wife sounding unpatriotic which will be used over and over and over again.

On the day when the DNC is launching it's Mccainpedia?

The contrast is jarring.


k/o: politics and local blogs
by kid oakland on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:23:42 AM EST

Re: Disagree (2.00 / 1)

John McCain is a maverick? Ugh, I want to vomit.

John McCain = George W. Bush. John McCain isn't going to "change" shit.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disagree (2.00 / 1)

Seriously. A Republican couldn't write a better argument for McCain. He's a maverick? No, he's not. He's a brand, and he has savaged it by flipflopping to every Bush position there is in his relentless pursuit of wingnut votes. He has sacrified his maverickhood - if he ever had it - on the altar of politics.

Hard worker? McCain showed up for less Senate votes than Tim Johnson, who was out due to a brain hemorrhage.

His wife is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, violates campaign finance law by flying McCain around on her company jet, while he's out and out breaking the law by fundraising over the cap after using his matching funds as collateral for a loan. And she won't release her tax returns.

Also, of the 3 families involved in this race - Clinton, Obama, McCain - only one of them doesn't have a net worth over $100,000,000. That would be Obama.

And... "blackberry carrying"? I thought one of the themes of this election cycle was health care reform, especially pushing costs down, and we're going to knock a candidate who has technological saavy? I, for one, am glad to have a President who can join us here in the 21st century. I'm happy to contrast Obama and his tech-saavy blackberry toting to John McCain, who is older than McDonalds,  the Polio vaccine, Nylon, Velcro, and the Golden Gate Bridge. McCain is still convinced there are little demons that power the Blackberry; of course he doesn't carry one.


by mattw on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She voted for Bush in 2000!!!! (none / 0)

as a registered Republican.

Don't even pretend she's a Democrat.


by Regenman on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

The Jersey Girl's analysis is heinously slanted and inconceivably wrong-headed. Shame on anyone who propogates this kind of garbage.


by wasder on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:30:19 AM EST

Please (none / 0)

I'm so saddened to see a diary about accountability regarding a loss that has not taken place.  The doomsday nuclear option here helps no one, not even Clinton and it's a drag on the party.

Nothing was nailed here except for the obvious bias for Clinton as a candidate.  Giving the fact that I'm a very strong Obama supporter I would still never argue that Clinton shouldn't be the nominee and everyone will regret it and we will hold all Clinton supporters responsible if she were to lose in November.

Just keep digging the divide, if Clinton does get the nomination you will have to eat a lot of crow in trying to get Obama supporters back to her side and diaries like this from either Clinton or Obama supporters make me ashamed to be a Democrat.


by Ellinorianne on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:55:24 AM EST

Her Attacks on Obama (2.00 / 1)

Are mostly baseless.  And your rationale that we should support a candidate not based on their qualifications but based on "What's the worst their opponents could possibly say about them," would have cost Bill Clinton the nomination in 1992 AND 1996.  We have two good candidates, but only one of them can win.  If by some mistake we do lose in November, you would be no less to blame by sowing your sour grapes so early and watering them so often.


by TooFolkGR on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:01:57 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 3)

The nominee is elected at the Convention.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Obama is yet to be fully defined and the Convention is 3 months away.

Please stop saying he is already the nominee.


by devoted1 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:11:28 PM EST

No I believe he is called the (none / 0)

presumptive nominee because it is very likely he will win.  Qualifying terms like "nominee" by the word "presumptive" is fair and not deceptive, nor does it exclude the possibility that HRC could win in the end, albeit by a phenomenal "buzzer shot".


by KLRinLA on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sorry (none / 0)

I'm sorry you are afraid of the Republicans.  I for one can't wait to take on the toothless dog.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:29:39 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

It is common knowledge that failed policies of previous presidents (including Mrs. Clinton's husband) contributed to the occurence of the 9/11 debacle. From 1998 until the end of his term, Mr. Clinton did not effectively combat terrorism, due to his legal problems over Monica. Since Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Clinton are closely associated, why should we expect anything different from her? With Mr. Obama as president, we might finally get a more effective foreign policy.


by applecrispbetty on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:44:33 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Pres. Clinton did attempt to combat terrorism, only to meet with Republican resistance. For instance, a certain Senator complained that Clinton was focusing on Osama bin Laden rather than Iraq way back in '98.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pol itics/special/clinton/stories/react08219 8.htm

It's a week old story here on MyDD, but I made sure to save that link. I'm sure it'll prove useful in the upcoming general election.


by TCQuad on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

I agree with you but wouldn't you agree that President Clinton's moral authority to go after the terrorists was weakened due to his scandals?
Every time he tried to attack the terrorists he was accused by the Repubs of trying to distract attention from the Monica scandal. In hindsight (i.e., after 9-11) I can't help thinking that Pres. Clinton maybe hurt our nation toward the end of his presidency. Possibly he could have resigned like Nixon and let Gore handle Osama, but I think he was too worried about his legacy to do that.
by applecrispbetty on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just another concern troll (none / 0)

Either democratic candidate will face 527s. Most of the country knows about Wright, and it hasn't hurt Obama, who is back to +11 in the Gallup tracker.

I mean calling other Democrats racists puts us back on our heels and we back down.

I've never seen Obama accuse anyone of racism. At worst, a few of his surrogates have called people out on specific comments - like Bill's JJ/SC comment. And even then, it wasn't an accusation of racism, it was an accusation of "playing the race card" - ie, exploiting racism for political gain.

How much was sexism the focus at the start of the campaign? I still remember one of Clinton's best lines: "They're not attacking me because I'm a woman, they're attacking me because I'm ahead."

In any event, her status as someone advocating a 9/11 investigation doesn't mean this is anything but a concern troll. It's what every apologist for Clinton is saying, and it's not even remotely new, and it hasn't changed any opinions, because even post-WV and after this talking point being repeated a million times, people prefer Obama by as much as they ever have, and he just broke a record for the largest political rally ever.


by mattw on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:50:07 PM EST

Irony. (none / 0)

"people are going to want to know whose to blame."

That's crazy Alegre and her crew in a nutshell right there.

Sigh.


by McNasty on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:50:34 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Alegre - superdelegates respoind VERY well to threats like the ones you link to in this diary.

I encourage you to email copy of this to every single one of them.


by Deano963 on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:54:55 PM EST

POINT PLEASE? (1.00 / 1)

"I would have been a great winning candidate if only I could have won".

What is the point of your diary?  Well technically the nomination isn't over---look around you.  It's done!

So coming and throwing a hissy fit by denigrating the Democratic candidate is short sighted and counterproductive.

She lost.  I've never seen such a group of poor losers in my life.  Really. If this type of nonsense keeps up, I have little doubt that misogynist nonsense will be emboldened and grow loud.


Change is coming soon.
by jv on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:57:26 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

I can't think of anything the Republicans might put on a commercial if Clinton was the nominee.  Yeah, it's only Obama who has a few spots that might be exploited by a ruthless Rovian attack campaign.  Sure!

I suppose there are a few spiteful Clinton supporters who may stay home if Obama is the nominee.  But Obama wins independents and Republican crossovers.. Clinton inspires jaded far-right Republicans to come to the polls.  It all washes out.

The part that would never be even is African American support.  Award the nomination to Clinton by overriding the pledged delegate count, and you'll be lucky to get 15% turnout in the fall.  And a good number of those would be writing in a 'funny name' instead of selecting one of the candidates listed.

The supers are smarter than the Clinton crowd.  Thank heavens.


by Wayward Son on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:05:54 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

I wish I was a Hillary Clinton supporter.
Because then, when the GE rolls around, I've already hedged my bets.
If Obama wins, good, because it will be a great day for the country.
If McCain wins, oh well. More people die in Iraq, the economy gets worse, no progress with health care, the environment, etc. But who cares? We get to say I told you so. Clearly, Hillary Clinton would win no matter what. Obama is a risk. Hillary Clinton is wildly popular, liked by everyone, and clearly who everyone wants to be president.
But of course, Obama cheated to win, so now we get to celebrate in november no matter who wins.
by BlueGAinDC on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:11:32 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

That is too hysterical that anyone believes Obama will get us out of Iraq.  Didn't his own Samantha Powers say that was a pipe dream?  He's already thrown healthcare under the bus.  And the environment?  I have one word -- Exelon.

I'm going to laugh if he does win, while the Deomcrats whine and moan that the guy who didn't promise you anything, didn't give you ANYTHING AT ALL for your support is a disappointment.


by Sensible on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:51:34 PM EST

Is your user name ironic? (none / 0)

Because there's certainly nothing sensible in your comments. Barack Obama threw health care under the bus? Have you been paying attention? No one, including Hillary Clinton would say such a silly thing.

Who are you? Have you ever voted? Are you involved in your community? Or do you just rant online?


by drmark on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Tell me, was Obama a loser candidate from the start or only after he beat Clinton?

Was he a loser when the DNC rolled him out at the last convention as an example of its promising future?


Change is coming soon.
by jv on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

heh. (none / 0)

the clinton candidacy is as done as decade-old pot roast, and all the magical thinking in the world won't change it.


by rabidnation on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:55:32 PM EST

Thanks, Jersey Girl! (2.00 / 2)

I have admired Kristin since her powerful testimony regarding 9/11.  She speaks for the outrage suffered when the American government does not pay attention to its people and protect us....and when officials hide from responsibility.

She also speaks for me in this primary season.  I can hardly believe the dems are about to give this nomination to a man who can't win.  Strategy is required!


by 4justice on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:13:13 PM EST

Re: Thanks, Jersey Girl! (1.00 / 2)

Better that they'd give it to she who lost?

Sore losers can't make any sense of their misfortune.  But let me spell it out, maybe if Clinton beat Obama then she may have beaten McCain.  But she didn't.  

Now fall in line and stand up for the nominee.


Change is coming soon.
by jv on Mon May 19, 2008 at 05:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

fall in line? (none / 0)

Certainly not.  The campaign is not over until we have a nominee which won't be until the votes are cast at the convention.

Whatever made you think you can order someone to fall in line?


by 4justice on Mon May 19, 2008 at 10:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Eh, what say you when Hillary conceeds the nomination and throws her unambiguous support behind Barack Obama?

Just askin'...


"The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."
by AK Democrat on Mon May 19, 2008 at 02:58:00 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

This a picture of a true Democrat
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/050 8/10450.html
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:09:30 PM EST

Kristen voted for Bush in 2000 (2.00 / 1)

She's not a real progessive, only voted for Kerry because her husband died in 9/11.

So that's what we're down to, quoting someone who voted for Bush in 2000.

Wow, surprised that she'll vote for McCain in 08.  Naw, not much.


by Regenman on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:11:06 PM EST

exactly (none / 0)

you say:

"This means the superdelegates have the power and obligation to decide who will be the best, most electable candidate for our party."

indeed, that's what they are doing, more and more every day, as they enthusiastically back obama.

yes, on election day we'll all be held accountable. you will look back over the thousands upon thousands of words you wrote and admit to myopia if and where necessary?

i hope so.


by j cantarella on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:37:29 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Doesn't the argument that superdelates who don't vote for HRC should be punished, btw, totally subvert the earlier argument that these are independent actors who should vote their conscience?


by IncognitoErgoSum on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:32:05 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

What's with the anger, ladies? Sheesh.

I have no problems "owning" my support of Obama. I hope you'll do likewise when he wins in November.

And just think, if he loses, not only will you have sour grapes to keep you company. You'll also have that warm "I told you so" feeling as well.


by Rationalisto on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:02:38 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (2.00 / 1)

Way to be dismissive of women.


by Montague on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Way to make shit up.


by Rationalisto on Sat May 24, 2008 at 01:28:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Defeatist Attitude (none / 0)

Ain't someone a pessimist.  


by optimusprime on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:18:21 PM EST

It's over (none / 0)

It's not going to happen. Those days have gone since 1968. There's no more Richard Daly to push everyone around. The 1990's are gone now and Terry Mac, James Carville and Gerri Ferraro no longer wield the inlfuence they once had. It was amusing to hear Ferraro talking about how Obama better be nice to her when he needs her to raise money. I think she did not get the memo about the internet. and how he raised $55 in one month without her help.

The supers will decide it, but not in the way you're hoping.


by RandyMI on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:19:05 PM EST

Key States (none / 0)

The big problem with Clinton is that if she were nominated, we would have been fighting a rear guard battle to keep a bunch of states like Oregon, Minnesota, Washington and even Connecticutt from slding away (and forget about Iowa). OR, she be so deep in Republiclan turf if only to make up for those lost EV's like putting all the cards on Florida and Ohio. Does all this sound familiar? That is not a position of strength. If we have to spend time in Seattle in October, we're cooked.


by RandyMI on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:24:39 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

First things first, every American has the right to be heard without being trashed.

I didn't vote for Obama or Hillary in my primary. But I will say this, these diaries that continually degrade these candidates (either one) do nothing to help the Democratic party. I understand being upbeat and working for your candidate until the primaries are over, that's great. But somewhere along the way everyone has to be realistic about what's going on here. Senator Obama will have the most pledged delegates, and most of the remaining SD's have said they will cast their lot with the person who reaches that metric.  

I voted for my candidate to get delegates in my primary, I didn't vote for any popular vote, most contests or money raised.  I will be some seriously pissed as a voter if I find out now that voting for delegates means nothing.


by Kyrial on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:46:43 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Yeah, everyone else is wrong, you're right.


by Grant Caesar Peters on Mon May 19, 2008 at 08:35:24 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Wow, I can't believe anyone thinks this post reflects well on Hillary. It's shameful.
McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Mon May 19, 2008 at 11:32:37 PM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

Why is Hilalry Clinton so magically electable against John McCain? Does that the fact that she lost 11 consecutive primaries during the most critical period of the primary season not suggest that the electability argument is downright silly?

Its something like saying that the Washington Redskins (5-11) should face the New England Patriots to represent the NFC because they have a better secondary than the New York Giants (12-4) after getting hammered by the Giants during the regular season.*

She had to prove it on the playing field and she didn't. It doesn't make sense to whine about having the superior candidate, when the candidate doesn't even have a ground game to make Minnesota, Colorado or South Carolina even remotely competitive. A superior candidate runs a superior campiagn from day 1. When it comes to the primaries and caucuses, Barack Obama was ready to lead from day 1 apparently.

*-strictly hypothetical argument not reflective of the actual teams in 2008


by keithdarlingbrekhus on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:44 AM EST

Re: Jersey Girl NAILS It (none / 0)

agreed: Obama will be a disaster, but his supporters will rather die than acknowledge it


Landslide of lies
by engels on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:59:37 AM EST


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