Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Working Class Vote

Today on Hardball, there was more fawning over how great John Edwards and Barack Obama looked on the stage together yesterday, the point, of course, being that they're a ticket made in heaven. I have to agree they did look great but so did John Kerry and John Edwards four years ago and we all know how well that worked out. The truth is, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton looked perfect together too once upon a time, but the quintessential Dream Ticket image of them standing on the stage together after the Los Angeles debate has been overshadowed by the tension of the race between them that's ensued since then, not to mention the most recent debate, which was anything but a showcase of unity.

But in the minds of these talking heads who seem to have written off an Obama/Clinton ticket but now see Obama/Edwards as the key to Democratic victory in the fall, the perfection of Edwards extends beyond aesthetics. On Hardball today it was suggested by one guest that Edwards was a perfect match for Obama because he could be the bridge between Obama and those elusive white working class voters. It's ironic, of course, that Edwards's endorsement would prompt this discussion since Edwards had cited his concern over the white working class narrative that had emerged post-West Virginia as one of the reasons he chose yesterday to endorse. But my real point here is that in fact, as great a guy and a candidate John Edwards is and was, he has in no way demonstrated that he would somehow be the key to the white working class vote.

Poblano has the goods. He begins:

It seems to be taken for granted that John Edwards had some stranglehold on the working class white vote. But this was not really the case. The working class vote was not a particular strength of John Edwards in either relative or absolute terms.

As evidence, he breaks down how all three candidates performed in the first 5 contests -- through Florida after which Edwards dropped out -- on several measures in an attempt to gauge white working class support. Poblano concludes:

Firstly, John Edwards actually performed slightly better among voters making more than $50,000 per year than among those making less.

Secondly, while we only have this data available in three states, there was no real difference in the education levels of Edwards supporters.

Thirdly, in every state where we have data available, Barack Obama performed significantly better than Edwards among voters making less than $50,000 per year, and among voters who did not attend college. This held true in racially mixed states like Florida, as well as extremely white states like Iowa and New Hampshire.

Fourthly, in every state where we have data available, Hillary Clinton performed significantly better than Edwards among voters making less than $50,000 per year, and among voters who did not attend college.

Now, as Poblano correctly states, this is not to in any way disparage John Edwards but rather just to point out that if it's white working class voters you want, there's just no evidence that John Edwards would deliver them. In fact, Hillary Clinton didn't exactly blow Obama away on this measure either that early in the game but as we've seen in the most recent contests, the game has changed.



Display:


Hey Todd (none / 0)

thanks for the good analysis.  The Obama campaign has some outreach to do if they want to gain that segment of the population in Nov.  I am hopeful they will reach out to them.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:32:17 PM EST

Re: Hey Todd (none / 0)

Im a working class white guy and umm i support Obama . But I dont happen to be a southern or appalachia white guy. Wonder if thats the key. Because in other states where there are lots of working class white guys Obama seems to do well. I wonder how that works?


by John a Va Dem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Probably because (none / 0)

of a few factors, Appalachia is older than the rest of the country.
Appalachia is less educated than the rest of the country.
Obama does better among these groups (younger people and higher educated) than Clinton.  Also there is likely some amplification of the usual race gap due to the population of appalachia and its education levels.

I am from MN and the child of a farmer I grew up as in a working class household and also support Obama.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 01:02:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (1.66 / 3)

 Obama/Edwards ticket would be slap in the face to all the women supporting Hillary.


Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:33:00 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 4)

not everything is about Hillary, and if woman are voting based on her sex, that is quite sad.


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

That doesn't mean it isn't reality.


by beerwulf on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is the fundamental MYDD sin (none / 0)

SUPPORTING A CANDIDATE BECAUSE SHE'S FEMALE IS JUST AS SEXIST AS OPPOSING HER BECAUSE SHE'S FEMALE.

Who here disagrees with that simple statement?

Seriously, you don't gain equality by claiming superiority.

What if the cry were to outlaw heterosexual marriage instead of legalize gay marriage?

What if black people wanted allow ownership of white slaves?

What if Latinos wanted to make it illegal for street signs to be in English?

It doesn't work that way. You can't correct one inequality by lobbying for another one.

Hillary Clinton certainly understands this. She's more than happy to run as an equal with no mention of her gender, which is precisely what she's accomplished - win or lose. Why the hell do you want to screw it up by turning it into some stupid antiquated war of the sexes?

This attitude is an absolute disgrace to the feminist cause and movement. Hillary's campaign is an epic moment - a massive triumph for feminism. Don't cheapen it.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the fundamental MYDD sin (2.00 / 2)

Decrying the rampant sexist attacks against Hillary is not the same thing as supporting Hillary just because she's a woman.  She's brilliant, inspiring, and has the experience, vision and temperament to do the job well.  That on top of her unquestionable qualifications she is also a women, and that her election would send the ultimate message of hope and change to literally half the people on earth makes a compelling case to many of her supporters, both women and men.

What's wrong with that?  Are people inspired at the prospect of a black president lobbying for inequality too?  Does an evironment where Hillary cannot even utter the word "white" without being labeled a race-baiter cheapen the cause of black civil rights?  Didn't Barack say he wants us to have that conversation?

I can't address your other questions because they're just absurd.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:11:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the fundamental MYDD sin (none / 0)

You want to "send the ultimate message of hope and change to literally half the people on earth". Just the fact that it's come down to a black and a woman has already sent one important message. But the ultimate message would be to choose between them without taking color or gender into consideration. If we can do that, we've truly transcended racism and sexism. I'm doing my part - please do yours!


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:06:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the fundamental MYDD sin (none / 0)

Decrying the rampant sexist attacks against Hillary is not the same thing as supporting Hillary just because she's a woman.  She's brilliant, inspiring, and has the experience, vision and temperament to do the job well.  
Your first sentence is wrong.  Supporting her just because she's a woman IS sexist.  She is also all of the things in your second sentence, but that's not in the equation of the first sentence.  Conflating the two is also a fundamental MyDD sin.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the fundamental MYDD sin (none / 0)

I'm a man...and I fully support Hillary....does that make me a sexist?  What I feel that she's just teh better candidate?  Does that make me racist?


by Nighttrain on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is the fundamental MYDD sin (none / 0)

Seriously, I thought I was clear in my comment.  If you support her because of her gender, that would be sexist.  If you oppose Obama based on his ethnicity, that would be racist.

If you made your decision based on positions and qualities other than race or gender, good for you.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:11:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, no it wouldn't. (2.00 / 1)

Being Vice President isn't a right when you finish second place - not since the 12th Amendment.

The Vice President is chosen by the nominee; he may choose Senator Clinton - that is his right and I think it'd be a great ticket.

But it's not a slap in the face unless you make it one.

Because there's nothing insulting about it; you lose, you lose.

When you win, you get to determine your cabinet.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:35:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 1)

I find it INCREDIBLY sexist of Hillary supporters to assume another woman won't be running for president again.


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:43:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Not only another one, but a much better candidate that hasn't burned so many bridges and alienated so many people!


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Sure, now that the bar has been set so low, I'm sure there are state legislatures all over the country filled with qualified woman candidates.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Totally. The idea that Hillary is the only woman  qualified baffles me. To me, that is sexist.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Poblano <3 (none / 0)

Awesome dude.

But I agree. John's a great guy - he'd be a great Attorney General to set loose on all the crooks but he can't help the ticket in the way someone like Senator Clinton, Nunn or Hagel would.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:33:27 PM EST

Re: Poblano &lt;3 (none / 0)

Hagel? A republican? Are you kidding?

I'm a Clintonista but I'll hold my nose and vote for BO.

However, if he chooses a republican for VP, then I vote for Nader or someone else.

Choosing the likes of Hagel would be a slap in the face of all progressives.


Full Equality Now!
by cuppajoe on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poblano &amp;lt;3 (none / 0)

Choosing the likes of Hagel would be a slap in the face of all progressives.
Hagel has said a lot of thins I admire him for; and his name on the ticket would sew up the GE on the spot, but that R next to his name is an incontrovertible disqualification.  No way I'd put an R like Hagel a heartbeat away from the presidency.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:01:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Poblano &amp;lt;3 (none / 0)

I am an Obama supporter and have to agree: please BHO, do NOT put a republican on the ticket!  I, too, would have to either not vote for president or pass it over Nadar.  


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:06:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

um Okay (none / 0)

so what, lets give Obama the respect and let him choose his VP, he deserves that


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:33:43 PM EST

I think it's legitimate that they raise (none / 0)

the idea of picking Senator Clinton; she's strong. But I do agree - there's no entitlement. Some may feel that she "deserves" the nod and that's debatable.

When someone campaigns against you in a way that many find not appealing, there's resentment. But ultimately, it's up to the nominee.

Forcing your way onto the ticket isn't to anyone's liking and won't make anyone happy.

So I would discourage that type of talk.

However, I do believe a unity-ticket is possible.

But again: Senator Obama's choice.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: um Okay (none / 0)

Of course Obama is the one to choose, but everyone else also has the right to voice their opinion on the matter.

looking closely at Edwards, his campaign this time around was mediocre, not even as good as 2004, which, itself, was only slightly above mediocre.

As a VP candidate, he added little to the Kerry ticket, He didn't help carry any southern states, although he is a southerner, and he couldn't carry his home state; where the Kerry/Edwards team was beaten handily. And according to most observers, he was beaten pretty well in his debate with Dick Cheney.

In this election, we need a candidate that will end the divide in the party, and bring unity. The divide is between the supporters of Obama and Clinton, Edwards does little to effect this in any manner.

In my view the only ticket which truly unites the party is Obama/Clinton. Clinton is the one with over 16 million votes, amounting to nearly half of those who voted in the primaries, and Clinton is the one that will go into the convention with roughly 2000 delegates. It will mark, by far, the greatest number of delegates taken to a convention by a losing candidate. If we want the unity that will put fear into the republicans, only Obama/Clinton can do that. Anything else is a big gamble, and an unnecessary risk.


The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. -- David Friedman
by pollbuster on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: um Okay (none / 0)

The problem is not the election the problem is after the election.  Obama is going to have quite some time controlling Bill.  Hillary and Bill are not the type who takes orders and the cohesion between Obama and the Clintons in my opinion will be chaotic.  Meeting dignitaries and giving eulogies of respected statesmen will not satisfy the Clintons.  There will be a power struggle between them and that is the last thing Obama needs in his cabinet.  Sure she is a capable politican but she is not the only one who knows how to be one in American politics.

Why make life any more complicated than it already is?


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: um Okay (none / 0)

One thing we can definitely agree on, If Obama doesn't win there is no after the election; other then a concession speech. Are we agreed?

Now this talk about Obama not being able to handle the situation with the Clinton's is always something that is dragged out. I actually think it is very demeaning to Obama. I see him as a strong leader, not a shrinking violet, and not someone who can't handle situations.

Come on now, if he can't handle this situation with the Clinton's then how is he going to handle Putin, or Sarkozy, or Berlusconni, and so on. The answer is he is going to handle it.

Once Hillary Clinton is Obama's VP, she will become a strong ally of Obama, there is nothing in it for her to be anything else. If just from a mercenary point of view, she would need to be part of a sucessful Presidency to prepare for her run in 8 years.


The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. -- David Friedman
by pollbuster on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: um Okay (1.00 / 2)

Once Hillary Clinton is Obama's VP, she will become a strong ally of Obama, there is nothing in it for her to be anything else.
Okay, that strikes me as just ludicrous.  I don't see Hillary as a subservient team player.  She wants the ball, and she wants Hillary's name in lights.  Publicly, she would do what she needed to do to polish her image and make the Obama administration moderately successful; but I have no doubt she'd be undercutting him behind the scenes in preparation to challenge him again in 2012.  A strong ally of Obama?  NFW.  She wants that Oval Office for herself.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More TR Abuse (none / 0)

from the HRC crowd.  Why does this site continue to pretend ratings permissions are not ideological?


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: um Okay (none / 0)

Well my hope is that if Obama winds up over his head he will have Hillary Clinton there to help - so basically your post is exactly WHY I would feel better about an Obama/Clinton ticket - because I am NOT confident in Obama's ability to be President so at least with Clinton there she can take over the ship if needed. Although from what I can tell Obama appears a bit too egotistical to be a pushover like you seem to be concerned could happen. My concern about the ticket is that his personality won't allow him to REALIZE when he is in over his head to take the sage counsel of those who can provide him the best advise.

I'm not sure though why anyone would think someone so smart & capable as Obama has been professed to be would so easily get bulldozed by Clinton...


by jrsygrl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Obama has a regional working class white problem.  Out west and even in places like Wisconsin, Hillary would be of no help on the ticket.


by sweet potato pie on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:38:04 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

in the west and midwest, Obama's just fine. I notice it's all about his losses in Appalachia...what about her resounding defeats in Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, Nebraska, Washington, Colorado, and soon to be Oregon?


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

The Great Plains vote Republican. The Obama camp keeps pushing those states as factoring into the GE electoral math, and it's a phony argument. Wisconsin and Minnesota are always close because of the rural element in those states. The Interior West also is not an integral part of the Electoral College for the Dems.

We ought to go with what works and branch out from there. I would trust the bread-and-butter values-oriented voters east of Mississippi to vote Democratic this year rather than the Libertarian West which wants taxes as low as possible, something they don't trust the Dems ever to be able to deliver.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong. (none / 0)

Our entire last four years, if you paid attention, have been focused on the purple west, where we've increased our Senators, Governors and Representatives.

Furthermore, we will be able to put New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado into play due to the demographics - where there are few blacks and a plethora of whites and where interracial bitterness doesn't take place, Senator Obama does well.

He will be able to grab the Latino support with his under-the-radar support of Driver's Licenses for illegals.

The demographics allow the west to be put into play.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:50:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

The Interior West is Libertarian, and in the case of Nevada and Colorado, the percent of Latinos voting Democratic as a bloc is not the same as in California.

What percent of the electorate in Colorado, Montana and Nevada is comprised of Latinos? And what's to say that Latinos in these states don't identify as Libertarian?


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

Libertarians hate John McCain. Hate him with a passion. True libertarians will gladly vote for Bob Barr.

Westerners like reformers, however, and Obama strikes them as a real reformer. McCain once struck the same reformer chord too, but has run away from that 2000 schtick.

There's a reason polls in ultra-red states like Alaska, North Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas show Obama within mid-single digits of McCain.


by elrod on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

Nevada: 24.4% of the population is Latino
Colorado: 19.5% of the population is Latino
Montana: 13.1% of the population is Latino

And they don't identify as Libertarian.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

What percent do they comprise of the electorate?

Much, more lower.

Thanks for the quick stats, though.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrong. (none / 0)

I don't buy that Latinos are sizable enough in the electorate but to make a difference in the closest of elections, like within a percentage point or two. I mean in California, where the largest population of Lations is in the West, Latinos are 15% of the electorate. I don't think that large of a percent translates to the other Western states.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Guess again chico (none / 0)

Latinos are well on their way to becoming the majority in the West.

I live in Santa Cruz, CA and if I want to practice my Spanish I can easily go a week without having to speak English. I can go to any store or restaurant and speak Spanish.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guess again chico (none / 0)

I live in El Sereno in East LA, and I know no Spanish. I'm going to learn, though.

Our CD (the 32nd) went solidly for Clinton, and considering McCain's stand on immigration reform, I don't know which way the district will go in Nov.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:06:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guess again chico (none / 0)

I used to live next door to El Sereno in the Monterey Hills of South Pasadena ... before my escape!

Fortunately CA should go democratic. If not, we're really screwed!


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:42:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Obama did fantastically in rural MN and WI. He also won Missouri. Colorado IS in play, and if you think OR and WA are insignificant, you've been taking too many hits off of Mark Penn's crackpipe.


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Obama lost outstate Missouri and won on the strength of the KC and St. Louis votes.

Oregon and Washington are Pacific coast, not Interior West and will vote Democratic as they have since '92.

I need more convincing on Colorado. Denver is the hub of the Interior West and though it may have (soon) two Dem senators and a Dem governor, like Montana I just don't see them voting Democratic for president.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again. Opinion isn't fact. (none / 0)

Senator Clinton loses Oregon, barely carries Washington, loses Wisconsin and Michigan whereas Senator Obama wins all strongly save Michigan.

He also carries Nevada, New Mexico and Colorado.

We can both play the bullshit game where we pull up polls and say opinions are facts.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion isn't fact. (none / 0)

Obviously, you play it well because I have no idea where you get your map from.

I could refer to the EV maps on the homepage here, but you want to bring in your own. That's fine, but thinking that Clinton wouldn't hold the states that Gore and Kerry held is preposterous in my mind. I use that as a basis for any debate about electability. Then, branching off from there, Clinton carries Ohio and Florida. Presidency's won.

Instead, you take away states from the '00 and '04 maps which are maps that any pollster would use because they are direct evidence from recent cycles. So I guess you really don't want to debate but instead berate me because your candidate doesn't carry states which factor into the latest electoral maps.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

538.com (none / 0)

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

Which has correctly predicted the margins and outcomes of pretty much every primary and has come closer than most polling agencies.

And if you don't think Senator Obama can't carry all the 2000/2004 states, I don't think Senator Clinton can either.

We can both play that game - and you can say Senator Clinton will win Florida and Ohio and I'll say Senator Obama will win New Mexico, Iowa, Nevada and Colorado.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 538.com (none / 0)

Well, we have a difference of opinion, and yours isn't borne out by the margin of difference between the winner and loser in '00 and '04 in Ohio and Florida.

I refuse to believe that we should throw out electoral rich Ohio and Florida in favor of a totally different brand of voter in the west who favors low taxes.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 538.com (none / 0)

You do see where the 2000 and 2004 maps got us don't you?  Of course we are not saying throw it out but to be reliant on two states is just absurd.  Obama can win without Ohio(although I think he will win barely) and he definitely will win out west.  This idea of just being tied to Ohio and Florida is just ridiculous when we can really increase our majorities out west.


by sweet potato pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 538.com (none / 0)

Clinton can't carry Wisconsin and Obama can't carry Pennsylvania and New Hampshire.

Neither would lose the Pacific Northwest.  Even the map you cite shows Hillary winning WA and OR.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion isn't fact. (2.00 / 1)

They're from Poblano's website, 538.  Poblano will show you every single poll he used to compile his map and what methodology he used.

Obama's map is Kerry's 252 plus Iowa and Colorado, which makes 268.  Then, he needs one of NV, NM, MO, OH, VA, NC.  

It's possible he would lose NH from Kerry's map, which would be four votes to make up.

If you're a Clinton supporter, no doubt you feel that Obama is doomed, doomed in all of these states.  I don't.  We'll all find out together.


by TL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion isn't fact. (none / 0)

I don't want to find out! That's why I'm continuing to support Clinton.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion isn't fact. (none / 0)

As is your right.  But you're invited to his second inaugural in 2012 and you'll be welcome!


by TL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion isn't fact. (none / 0)

Um, okay!


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion isn't fact. (none / 0)

Pennsylvania.

Huge problem for Obama.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Obama lost outstate Missouri and won on the strength of the KC and St. Louis votes.

erm, so? Are you one of those people who elevates the rural vote above all else and demeans urban voters?


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:06:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

No, I'm saying that the urban vote for the Dems is a given because even when we got trounced in '84, the major cities voted more or less Democratic. I'm not discounting urban voters; in fact it's important to me that a candidate have an urban agenda, especially because I live in a major city. Claire McCaskill proved the value of the rural vote in her run in '06 because she turned the outstare counties purple enough to combine with the heavy urban vote. In fact, she received some criticism for paying too much attention to rural voters but it worked for her. That's why I really can't understand that she's heavily behind Obama.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Outstate Missouri is more like the South than the West. Spend some time in Little Dixie (central Missouri) or the Ozarks and you'll see what I mean. It was settled by Kentuckians in the early 19th century.  Outstate Missourians have the racial attitudes of West Virginians, Kentuckians, Oklahomans, Tennesseans and other Upper South whites. In other words, they have lots of racial baggage that voters in the Mountain West don't have.


by elrod on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

I really wish y'all would stop framing Hillary's support in these regions on the basis of race.

I'm saying they're (these Upper South and Appalachian voters) values-oriented, as in family values, which Hillary has been touting her whole career, especially in terms of protecting children, and y'all want to say that these people are racist.

I, in fact, don't see how voters in Nevada and the Interior West would all of a sudden vote Democratic when their basic mantra is: low taxes. These voters would never trust Democratics to be able to deliver satisfaction on that basis. I don't get it. Sure, they like Democratic senators, but it's only because those guys know how to send money back home in the form of pork barrel spending.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Whatever the reason, Hillary clearly does well in these regions when she's running against Barack.  I'm very far from being convinced she does well if she's running against McCain.


by TL on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:23:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

If you asked me two years ago that Hillary would be known as the "values candidate" among rural voters I would have laughed.


Stop H8
by mikeinsf on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

With all due respect, I live in Appalachia, and I will quit worrying about racial issues influencing voting patterns when we can stand on a street corner holding Obama signs without having racial epitaphs screamed at us. These comments were yelled at us even when there were multiple children around. And it's not something that happened once, it happened repeatedly, over a period of several days.

I'll have no more concerns when the Democratic county chairman doesn't take Obama campaign signs out of the window of the local Democratic headqtrs, saying they are "too controversial".

I'll stop questioning race as a reason for support when a friend and HRC supporter quits coming up to me, relating how she's had people stop her when she was wearing her Hillary button in public, telling her she was making the right choice, not voting for the n****. This friend, btw, is a founding member of the local MLK Commission. This has happened more than once.

I'll feel better about racial issues in this region when an Obama sign lasts more than 8 hours after being placed outdoors. Over 30 signs have disappeared - every single one placed in this county over a period of weeks, while signs for every other candidate remain untouched. Signs placed outside of polling areas were removed inside of an hour. BTW, an adopt-a-highway sign from a stretch of road the MLK Commission adopted to pick up trash was stolen a week after it went up.

It's sad, really. There are wonderful people here, but their attitude towards minorities is frightening. Not everyone, of course, but enough. Pretending otherwise is to stick your head in the sand.


by tysonpublic on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:50:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by that measure (none / 0)

the people who didnt vote for HRC in PA were sexists because i heard a lot of "bitch" or "not a woman" and other sexist comments by a bunch of people.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Yeah please anyone who thinks Obama is going to actually turn a historically solid red state blue is DREAMING...

But with him as a nominee we have some states that are in play to be blue more likely to go red...(ie FL, PA, OH).  


by jrsygrl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

You forget that those earlier states were before Rev. Wright and particularly before the "bitter" quote that offended gun owners. Like it or not, perception of Obama has changed.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:21:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Wisconsin is typically close no matter who's up.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The (none / 0)

I'm not sure which politician I would prefer as VP, but I would rather have Clinton on the ticket than Edwards.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:38:14 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

When is the convention?

It's way too early for this discussion.


by xdem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:39:52 PM EST

Yesterday's Endorsement & Today's Hysterics (2.00 / 1)

There are more unsolved questions than answers from yesterday's endorsement and today's flap over national security philosophy with the President. If you need someone else (Edwards) to help you reach out to a certain demographic (working-class voters), then that demographic ultimately will not back you, espcially Southerners who can smell disingenuousness from a mile away. Also, Obama did not agree or disagree with the President's criticism directly into the cameras as Hillary would have done but instead criticized him through surrogates. This use of surrogates will backfire on Obama come November if not before, such as when the convention meets to choose a nominee.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:41:03 PM EST

Right. (none / 0)

Why is this site filled with so many political experts, polling experts, internal pollsters and the assortment of people that are actually paid to find this stuff out?

If you're so great at what you do, why don't you take your time machine back to November of 2007, throw your resume at Senator Clinton and tell her how to win the Democratic Primary.

Because all I hear from the "pollsters" is bullshit. In 2004, they told me Senator Kerry would kick Bush's ass; in 2007 they told me Clinton would have this one easy. They said she's inevitable.

But you know what I see? I don't see either of those two things.

So kindly take your OPINIONS YOU POST AS FACT and KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.

I'm getting tired of this. An opinion is not a fucking fact


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right. (none / 0)

I'm sorry if my opinions scare you!

Glass of water for Lord Hadrian.

As long as I continue to believe I'm right and am thoroughly disabused of the notion when Senator Obama wins the presidency, we will continue to fight. So let's get used to each other.


by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

as for the "dream ticket", I don't get why, because the race is so contested, he automatically HAS to pick Hillary. I mean, if we're going to go that route, why shouldn't he just pick John McCain and be done with it? Almost half the country is gonna vote for McCain, after all, so won't "the people have spoken"?


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:41:35 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 2)

It is the media that doesn't want an Obama/Clinton ticket, but the voters have other thoughts in mind. I want to see their faces down the stretch when Clinton either wins the nomination or is placed on the ticket due to the support of her many delegates.


Steven Shaman Publisher Skywatch-Media News
by steve468 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:44:00 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 1)

Obama/Clinton is the only ticket that will lead to victory this fall.  Otherwise you'll loose  Ohio and Florida  and the general.


by nzubechukwu on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:44:44 PM EST

Again. Opinion posted as fact. (none / 0)

You're not a polling expert; you have no idea what your talking about and you don't offer evidence.

Show me the demographics of the two states, dissect them to me, go through the districts and congressional districts and analyze it and get back to me on whether they'll be won.

You know what is true? If Senator Obama keeps the exact same voters that Senator Kerry received, and both are "effete", "latte-sipping" liberals and he increase African-American turnout like has done in every state, he will carry the state by approximately 30,000 votes.

That's what can be quantified and EVIDENCED. Until you start talking in numbers, facts and evidence, your just stating an opinion.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again. Opinion posted as fact. (none / 0)

You forgot to subtract Hillary`s pissed off supporters. Just my opinion.


Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And Senator Bradley's who wouldn't (none / 0)

support Vice President Gore or Senator Edwards that wouldn't support Senator Kerry's or Governor Dean's that wouldn't support Senator Kerry.

Or

[five hours later]

Yeah. Democrats retain their anger for long.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, (2.00 / 1)

What makes you think a vote for Clinton is anything more than a vote for Clinton?  It is not a vote against Obama.  White working class voters and Seniors are the most difficult people to get to overturn a popular incumbent - and that's what a lot of Hillary's appeal is to these voters. They like the Clinton brand because things were better when Clinton was President. Period.  Does Hillary have a problem "connecting" to educated Whites just because they are voting for Obama?  This type of analysis is absurd.

And by the way the net delegate count in last 3 days including West Virginia is:

Clinton 20
Obama 31


by Piuma on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:45:40 PM EST

Re: Sorry, (none / 0)

Thank you. For every racist douchebag the media holds up as "evidence" that working class whites are too bigoted to vote for Obama, there are thousands who will vote for Obama against McCain. Working class whites generally preferred Clinton over Obama. But that doesn't mean they prefer McCain over Obama.


by elrod on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, (none / 0)

Tucker Carlson said an interesting thing on Hardball tonight that polling is showing the majority of Seniors in the Country think McCain is too old for the Presidency.  


by Piuma on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, (none / 0)

I'm not surprised. I have been telling people that he is the new Bob Dole. Bob Dole actually looked younger and healthier than McCain. McCain is going to have a serious age issue even if we don't bring it up.


by sweet potato pie on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:09:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Edwards on Larry King.... (none / 0)

....KING: Senator Edwards, would you run again for vice president if asked?

EDWARDS: No. I don't have any interest in it, no intention to do it. The cause of my life, Larry, is to do something about poverty in this country, and I'm going to pour my heart and soul into that. I knew you were going to ask me aboutt this.


It's an election, not an auction.
by cosbo on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:47:37 PM EST

good lord (none / 0)

as someone who used to come here because dkos and americablog were too anti-hillary when this was still a contest, this place has now gone over the deep end and is part of the problem with some people suggesting they won't support obama.

i live in nyc. i gave my girl cash. i love her. but it's over. stop belittling obama and focus on mccain.


by PHDinNYC4Kerry on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:53:16 PM EST

Re: good lord (none / 0)

Sorry, no can do. I didn't reward my children's bad behavior nor will I do so for a political campaign and its supporters.


by usedmeat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: good lord (1.50 / 2)

Perhaps you are referring to Hillary supporters picketing various democratic party headquarters today demanding that the superdelegates overturn the pledged delegate leader just because it's not their choice.

Or the others who have sent threatening letters to superdelegates insisting they overturn the will of the people just 'cos she's a woman.

Oh, and there is the matter of Hillary's campaign itself alienating and insulting the democratic activist base, changing the rules midstream, and kneecapping a fellow democrat.

I agree.  I will not reward bad behavior on the part of a campaign or its supporters.  That is why I'm choosing Obama.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: good lord (2.00 / 1)

I'm going to clarify, just 'cos I know Robert, who troll rated me (I still consider you a friend, Robert, even though you obviously don't share that feeling anymore... it's OK, I don't hold a grudge... maybe we can reconcile after the election)... Seeing the troll rate made me realize that I didn't do a very good job making my point, and was overly inflammatory.  I apologize.

The people picketing the various state party headquarters are women who claim that the DNC is being sexist in its treatment of Hillary.  On what grounds they make that basis is unclear, hence my comment...  Since they are arguing that not overturning the pledged delegate leader is somehow sexist (which makes no sense), that's where that line came in.  I can see how it may have been misconstrued.  I do apologize for probably misstating my intentions and not clarifying the situation.

Perhaps someone involved in the picketing can explain their reasoning, since it makes no sense to me.  The party has been very kind to the former first lady, and showing a significant amount of deference and restraint.  A lot more than any other candidate would be allowed.  Had Obama been in second and started throwing the "kitchen sink" at Hillary, he would have been forced out in an instant.  She has already received a significant amount of preferential treatment due to her previous post as first lady.  To claim that the party is being sexist in her treatment makes absolutely no sense.

Again, I apologize for being overly inflammatory.  I tried to make a point, but I didn't do it very well.  I will show better judgment and restraint next time.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 1)

Frankly, I think Elizabeth Edwards' endorsement carries more weight than Johns' at this point.

I supported Edwards but I think he would not be a good VP selection.

Actually, I'd rather see her as the VP! That would seriously kick ass!


by TimO on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:56:06 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 1)

Todd,

I disagree with you.  I don't think Obama has a white working class problem.  I think Obama has a white working class problem east of the Mississippi.  I suspect his recent problems are more of a product of scheduling on the calender rather than lack of support among the entire demographic.


John McCain believes "Women shouldn't have a choice."
by jturn17 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:59:39 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Wisconsin is east of the Mississippi. Maine is east of the Mississippi.

Obama has a working class white problem in Appalachia, the Rust Belt and the South. In the general election, he will still lose those whites in the South and Appalachia but he will win them in the Rust Belt. This ain't 1980, and McCain ain't Reagan.


by elrod on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are We Still Going On About This? (2.00 / 1)

Which stage of grief are we in now?

Sure Edwards (The Breck Girl) can't deliver working class white voters to Obama.  And what exactly has changed?  How about a media obsession with Bittergate, Reverend Wright, and the oops of mentioning hard working, white that is, Americans.  That took its toll no doubt.

What Edwards is about is an attempt to heal the Democratic coalition.  That's why Edwards went on so long about how great HRC is.

It may also be that Edwards getting on board signals that Obama recognizes that he has a problem and that Obama will be running a much more class-based campaign than any Democrat has run in a long time.  After running off at the mouth about how great HRC is, the next biggest topic discussed in Edwards's speech was class politics.

From Obama's interview with Charlie Rose, it's clear he's read What's the Matter with Kansas.  If so, that would be a positive sign.

Edwards won't be able to "deliver" older white relatively less-educated voters to Obama.  But Obama himself may be able to do so depending on the kind of campaign he runs.

It just may be that with Edwards on board Obama is prepared to take on the plutocracy.  Wouldn't that be grand.


by kaleidescope on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:09:13 PM EST

Re: Are We Still Going On About This? (none / 0)

"Which stage of grief are we in now?"

We're on to bargaining, for the most part.

First was denial, which has been going on for awhile.

Next up is anger, which is all over this site.

Bargaining is the whole "He better pick her as nominee!" stage.

Depression and acceptance upcoming.


by KyleJRM on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are We Still Going On About This? (none / 0)

Acceptance, not from this voter. Sorry, bub, Obama doesn't get my vote.


by usedmeat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll Eat Some Worms (2.00 / 1)

And then I'll die
And you'll be sorry
That you picked on me.
by kaleidescope on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are We Still Going On About This? (none / 0)

It's normal to think the grieving process will be different for you when you are going through it. But don't worry, we all get over our losses eventually.


by KyleJRM on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:10:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

The Edwards endorsement served one purpose... to distract the chattering heads in the media over Hillary's impressive, but mostly symbolic, victory in WV.  It was mostly successful.

While the two of them look good together and are obviously on the same page, Edwards did little to help the Kerry ticket and would do little to help this one.  He's a much better choice for attorney general or supreme court justice.  Although, I would advise a hispanic woman as a nominee for president Obama.  That would help build bridges with several key constituencies.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:16:12 PM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

You are correct. Obama's folks have been very adept at managing the media. That comes in handy when in the White House.

This is a marathon, not a sprint. When your opponent runs a better time on the 21st mile, sometimes it's important to remind folks how many minutes you are ahead.


by elrod on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Obama's crew have been OK with the media... they are getting better.  They are not as good as Hillary's campaign.  I must say that Clinton's team has been incredibly impressive with media management.  It's not surprising, considering the history of the Clinton campaigns (Bill Clinton was the first to master cable news).  They still are behind on the whole internet thing, though...  That is very new to them.  Obama has really mastered that medium.


"This was never part of our arrangement, Specter" "I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!" "This deal keeps getting worse all the time!"
by LordMike on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree and disagree (none / 0)

They've been Jedi masters at the expectations game, but they've had some embarrassing media leaks from the campaign (although I suppose you could argue some might be intentional), and Bill has lost his cool on multiple occasions.


by grass on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:35:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

We have just had 8 years of the wh managing the media. Do you realize what you are saying ?


Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the policy stupid (2.00 / 1)

One of the problems is all three of them are for "comprehensive" immigration reform and that were some incredibly bad bills and extremely unpopular.  It's unpopular because this lowers wages.  I'm sorry, this is an economic truth.

Then, on trade, Edward's actual Senate record is horrific!  

Later in the game, Hillary started putting out position papers saying she was amenable to truly revamp trade agreements and that caught a lot of people's attention frankly.

She also had policies specifically for single mothers, just as an example, she has a plan to fund part-time and non-traditional students.  It's critical because esp. single mothers cannot work full time, plus go to school full-time and take care of their kids.  If you don't go to school full-time or are dead in a box poverty level, wala, you can have no support for college.

So, that's really the issue I believe that policy positions, God, it's so ridiculous, it's like pulling teeth, both parties to simply enact policy that is in the middle class's interests and the national interest and while she obviously became more populist and yes Progressive, voters plain responded.

I don't know why people can't get that.  We have American's right now going bankruptcy from no health care, losing their homes, retirement, jobs, literally going homeless and so of course they are going to vote on that.  

She's been the one much more responsive with real policy solutions, bottom line.

It's one thing to talk about the two Americas, it's another to actually put forth policy to bring that divide together (called social mobility folks).

Why is this so tough and why is it even in the blogs real policy positions are barely discussed.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:20:34 PM EST

Re: It's the policy stupid (1.33 / 3)

And when Hillary returns to the Senate she can actually develop the legislation, push it through with the power she's accumulated and President Obama will sign it without hesitation.

In fact she can use her position now as leverage to coerce Obama into accepting her agenda and working with him to push it through.


by TimO on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wrong (2.00 / 1)

that is pure bullshit, it's the administration who sets policy and all of those positions are lost.

What kind of kool-aid are you drinking?  Do you think Obama is running so policy wonk Clinton can get her agenda through?  I don't think so.

She should be the nominee, by policy, see?


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The key to the working class vote is (none / 0)

nominating the candidate that appeals to them.  Just the fact that everyone is frantically looking for the Veep that can prop BO up shows the issues he has with most voter groups.  We'll put a woman on the ticket, no Richardon, no Edwards.  People don't vote for VP.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:22:25 PM EST

Edwards (none / 0)

I was an Edwards supporter going into this, but I would greatly prefer him as Attorney General. I don't think he helps the ticket that much. I don't think he hurts it as much as Hillary though.

I'm trusting Obama to use the same strategic genius he used to win the delegate race in choosing his VP. I can't figure it out and I'm glad I don't have to.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:46:15 PM EST

Did Edwards win anything? (2.00 / 1)

Did he win one single state? Um. NO.
I honestly love Edwards- but the thought of him as VP just takes me back to Nov 6 2004.  3 am.  Not drunk enough to sleep through the HORROR that Bush had won, again.  I'm sorry- bad, bad memories me and John Edwards.  I love him- but DUDE!!

Let's win.  Hire a Clinton.  Sorry haters, who else has won post Cindy Lauper "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun"?

Like it or not, Hillary's got the states we need. Obama? Not so much.


by easyE on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:46:49 PM EST

You do realize that (none / 0)

Primary results are NO indication of GE results right?


by SocialDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

First off Todd, Let's get this (2.00 / 1)

straight. Obama's problem is not a white working class problem. It's a white working class in Appalachia problem.  Working class whites are not some monolithic bloc. See Wisconsin and Iowa.  This line parroted by the media and frankly many at this site is very intellectually dishonest. What you also fail to mention is how for many of these Appalachia states, Obama does not need to win because of the different electoral map he brings to the table. Though this is speculation, it is also speculation that he white working class people will not vote for him. You all just wait when McCain rolls out more of his conservative social darwinism that leaves every man for himself all the while Democrats are sweeping in with populist rhetoric and policy. But go ahead and neglect those other facts.


by SocialDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:49:40 PM EST

Here is a district (none / 0)

by district map. The districts in purple are the counties Clinton won more than a 65-35 margin. See what I mean?

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.s hared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2 008/05/13/clinton65.jpg

Yes, I know it's a conservative blogger, but even he is a little more balanced than MyDD at times.


by SocialDem on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is a district (none / 0)

So what? Is that map supposed to mean something? What about the states she won by a lesser margin?  


by usedmeat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:04:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The point is (2.00 / 1)

the idea that Obama is doing terrible with working class voters is just a manufactured line for the media to play on.  In actuality he has a hard time with what I would call Jacksonian Democrats. Or the Scot-Irish who migrated to the Appalachia area.  Pretty much everywhere else, the white working class vote was very close. It is only in this region of the country (and yes I know this is so over used by BO supporters here, but I think it's racism.) that he seems to have a problem with white working class people.  You tell me why on the EV map he has no problem in other predominately white working class states. IE. Wisconsin, Iowa?  You can go ahead and ignore the facts but it does show how little you know about this parroted talking point. White working class voters like I said are not some monolithic bloc.  Each region of the country has it's attitude and past political experience.


by SocialDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, let's call it like it is (none / 0)

Obama has a problem with Swing States.  How about that? Sound better? It's just as true.  FLA, OH, PENN- the one's we really have NO CHOICE but to win.  Not these theoretic NC, VIRGINIA, etc.  The ones that McCain just happens to keep polling better in- but somehow Obama will win.  How about the ones that we know we MUST win.  Those are the one's he's having problems in.  So call it like it is.  Obama has a swing state problem.  


by easyE on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:14:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No (none / 0)

He does not have a swing state problem. If you are suggesting that primary results are indicative of GE results frankly I am done talking to you. But I will entertain you for a little bit. First of all, Barack will not lose Penn, has a good shot in OH. He will lose FL, make it up with CO, WI (which Hillary WILL lose), MI will be competitive. Even if he does not win VA he will make McCain spend resources which could divert time away from states like NC, ND, or even OH. Barack will IN which Hillary will not. And again, Hillary will not FL, but neither will Barack. He will make many other states competitive which have a HUGE AA population.

I figured it out, all Barack needs is 40 percent of the white vote, 90 percent of the AA and a majority of the latino vote and he is in.  

If you think Hillary will not have a problem with men in those swing states you desperately prize  you are frankly as delusional as you think I am.  

All in all I would just like to state that trying to predict GE results this far out when we don't have a clear (atleast to the media) nominee is frankly trying to find a needle in a haystack.


by SocialDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, let's call it like it is (none / 0)

But then again, we are not talking about swing states, but white working class voters.


by SocialDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:25:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, let's call it like it is (none / 0)

If you think Obama has a problem with swing states, then do something about it.  Get it to swing democratic.  Suggest ideas and be proactive.

Just don't sit there and whine.


by hienmango on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:27:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd like to add (none / 0)

Look at the where the purple is located? Notice that in other "white" states the margin was much closer.  The idea is a 65-35 margin is a blowout and would constitute a problem with that voting bloc right? Well in the white states like WV and other Appalachia states are the only "white" states he as a problem with.  Look at WI and Iowa for example.


by SocialDem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:12:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Edwards has talked about poverty, but that is not the same thing as connecting with the working class, which I don't think he has ever done. If the Obama campaign thinks it is, then that is just more evidence to workers that Obama does not understand them. I think Clinton has shown that she understands the "We need help, not hope" sentiment and has credibility among workers that she is the one who can deliver through her policy proposals (how boring).


by DeanOR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:55:30 AM EST

Edwards wont be VP (none / 0)

This is just the usual media breathlessness after a high profile endorsement.  The exact same thing happened when Richardson came out.  Im sure if Gore came out he would be the next assumed VP, and then Dean or Pelosi, etc.

While I thought Edwards and Obama looked nice together it just isnt the right fit (my opinion).  I dont think Edwards brings enough to Obamas table (again, not trying to denigrate Edwards, hes superb in his own way, I just dont think he and Obama balance each other well).

And I only write off an Obama/Clinton ticket for one reason (well one major reason) - Bill.  Having Bill as the VPs husband adds way too many weird dramas and distractions.  Hed be great if Hillary was at the top of the ticket (a co-pres if you will - a wandering ambassador) but being the VPs husband would almost appear to be a demotion which is something that would sit oddly in the political world.


by pattonbt on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:57:15 AM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

I feel like I'm in an insane asylum because the commentators seem bipolar schizo by the way they have this hate/love thing with the democratic party.  

Do you support the democratic party or not?  If you do, stop trashing it and it's leaders.  

I think Obama supporters have been much more civilized as of late regarding Hillary.  I ask that Hillary supporters do the same for our party's sake.


by hienmango on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:25:10 AM EST

Hmm (none / 0)

This is definitely a conversation worth having, and Todd, you point out that there is no evidence to support that Edwards would bring in the white working class vote. But there's also no evidence that he wouldn't.

As others have pointed out, Obama doesn't have a white working class problem; he has an Appalachia problem.

Obama is three points behind in NC. I think Edwards would help there, and in VA, where Obama is also behind by 3 points.

Moreover, his message and ideals are frankly much more in line with those of Obama than are Hillary's. Like it or not, whether or not it is expedient, Obama would be betraying his many millions of supporters if he chose the person who has made herself representative of the "old politics" his supporters have so adamantly opposed. Edwards was also the person who famously apologized for his war vote way before it was popular, and opposed lobbyist influence. He's also a terrific speaker.

And I must admit, that intuitively Edwards seems like a good balance for Obama. He's define as someone who fights against poverty. Indeed, I can't think of a single well-known politician who is more identified with "fighting for the working class" than John Edwards. Obviously Hillary has been winning the "white working class vote" in Appalachia, but would she be winning those votes if Edwards were still in the race. He won 7% in WV after 4 months out!


by Jonmac on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:46:41 AM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (2.00 / 1)

Correct. There has been a spate of very desperate appearing moves on behalf of the Obama campaign or the DNC. The NARAL endorsement is a disaster. The chapter in Missouri, for example, sent a robocall out to 8200 people saying they remain neutral, as other chapters have protested loudly. Frankly, the fact that they endorsed Lieberman over Lamont (Lieberman is campaigning for McCain at his website, BTW) was the end for me as far as NARAL was concerned, and their hyperagitated DC staff and clusterworriers really jumped the shark. To have Obama supporters front as if this is an indication of Obama's support for womens' issues is really beyond comprehension. There has to be someone in his campaign smarter at dealing with the issue. Once again, it looks to be solely a response to a perceived weakness. That's not good coming from a candidate whose votes in the Illinois Senate were not exactly upfront as supporting pro-choice positions.

The Edwards' endorsement could not appear more transparently ambitious, especially since he has maintained a posture of neutrality for so long. His initial quite bitter statement after he withdrew from the race gave me all the information that I needed with regards to John Edwards. He phoned it in in 2004 and I do hope the Obama campaign is not actually counting on him to deliver anything, because Edwards may have established the fact that he has telegenic good looks, but his anti-poverty chops don't yet exist. The Obama campaigns distribution of the how and when I came to Jesus in Kentucky is also pretty bad.

While I'm at it, when did the announcement of superdelegate's support count towards the 2025 delegates required number? I'm getting the feeling that Obama's people actually don't know how to run a general election campaign, and the media have already started to turn on him. What is the deal? Obama should be personally, at a major press conference, tearing Bush's head off about Bush's comments to the Knesset. Instead we have Democrats questioning why it took Hillary Clinton more than 5 minutes to respond to Bush's comments (which, incidentally, were not directed specifically at Obama, but it's not like the Jewish community is wildly pro-Obama at this point). A press conference to demonstrate that he is very serious about the issue that Bush brought up would not exactly hurt him.

Maybe it's because the attacks are just starting (that one on Michelle Obama by the TN GOP, BTW, is pretty unbelievably nasty, yet I did watch it on UTube and I'm feeling like the Obama response is kind of like the Dukakis response to how would you react if someone raped your wife disaster. It's defintely not something you have a surrogate respond to. Where is the fight?

I'm just saying. When the evildoer of all time attacks you, a response of I'm prohibited from appearing assertive because I haven't actually won the nomination yet is a really lame excuse and a huge missed opportunity. The fact that it would probably net more votes for Obama also just baffles me as to why the inner-Zen like responses. It's not like Bush is a popular or well liked President at this point in time. Anyway, I'll stop freaking out now. Sorry if I have disturbed anyone, kind of.

Honestly, I'm so ready for a Clinton/Biden ticket today. Biden's response to Bush was widely discussed in the Democratic world of politicians and campaign staffs, but the national media I've seen has McCain looking like the one with a forceful response - against Obama. I get the whole well didn't he just show the country he's just more Bush concept, but you still have to whup him upside the head for even going there.

The media has been savagely misogynistic to Hillary Clinton, and not so tough with Obama. I expect them to spare no malice or deceit when attacking Obama. He realizes that he has to be passionate and animated and strong 24/7 at this point, right? You all know I would pick Clinton in a second to deal with this level of crap (and everyone knows I clearly prefer her as the ready leader and all that), so, take my rant as you will, but I want to see some real butt getting kicked now! I'll help the Bushes move their belongings from The White House - cause I still own it and he is not welcome there past January 9, 2009


by Jeter on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:54:37 AM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Yes Clinton/Biden. That's going to happen so it is worth discussing. Or Leno/Letterman.


by danfromny on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:57:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

So, no actual response to the post, eh?


by Jim J on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

Let me reply.

1. The media has not been misogynistic in any way.
2.  Biden and Clinton will not ticket together.

Why? You ask. Because Clinton is finished. And Biden was finished out of the starting gate.

And because this is the 21st century. Screw 'em if they can't take a joke.

Thats a reply. Enjoy.


by Trey Rentz on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:32:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

I doubt that Edwards' endorsement would have changed things much in W. Virginia.  By delaying his endorsement, he avoided embarrassment.

What I am hearing more and more from professional women I know is that Hillary better be on the ticket, or else.


by Bob H on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:00:28 AM EST

Edwards' Track Record Of Losing. (none / 0)

Don't forget:

1.  Edwards lost the primary in 2004

2.  Cheney wiped the floor with Edwards during their debate

3.  Edwards lost NC for Kerry in the 2004 GE

4.  Edwards would have lost his Senate seat, one of the reasons why he didn't run again

5.  Edwards didn't win one state in the 2008 primary

6.  Obama, with Edwards, now MUST WIN KENTUCKY!


by BigBoyBlue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:32:32 AM EST

Re: Edwards' Track Record Of Losing. (none / 0)

Speaking personally - and this is  kind of funny, isn't it. I was such a hardcore Obama supporter? When the primary was going..?

Now that we've figured out that its going to be Obama, my main focus is on getting Hillary as the VP.

Party unity. Its not just a job.
It's an adventure


by Trey Rentz on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Blah blah blah hardball blah blah (none / 0)

Stop talking about what pundits say. CNN, Fox, MSNBC have to, each, fill 24 hours with something. That's 72 hours of bullshit per day. Then the blogs report and discuss the bullshit. It's like a stupid dog chasing it's tail. Are the blogs the dog or the tail?


by danfromny on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:58:03 AM EST

Pfft! Two words (none / 0)

West. Virginia.

Hillary Clinton is the answer to that demographic. And the reason is that she's fixing one of their number one concerns: healthcare.

Although I would add that John Edwards was the only candidate that brought up the fact that the number one cause of bankruptcy in this demographic class are unforeseen medical expenses. 60% of all bankruptcies in the US occur as a result of medical bills. Think about that.

Clinton did so strongly in West Virginia that any discussion of who would net that vote , has to include the fact that she has done extremely well in this demographic.


by Trey Rentz on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:28:09 AM EST

Re: Sorry, Edwards Is Not The Key To The White Wor (none / 0)

2 comments:

1) you can be sure that anything the MSM promotes as good for the democratic ticket is actually bad for the democratic ticket

2) the white vote they're all getting nervous about is the racist vote. John Edwards doesn't help or hurt that any differently than HRC.

Bonus observation: isn't it something how everyone can suddenly talk about Obama's working class white problem without getting the heathers, but if the Clinton campaign mentions it the MSM and the left wing mighty Wurlitzer suddenly go into overdrive.


by gak on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:45:55 AM EST

I guess we will have to wait (none / 0)

for Kentucky to see if Edwards had any difference.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:42:45 PM EST

JRE's Strong Suit? Conservatives (none / 0)

Edwards scored conspicuously with self-identified conservative voters in the early contests.

Maybe it's the accent. Maybe it's who he was politically 4-6-8-10 years ago.

And he scored well among voters who didn't want a woman and didn't want a black man (not necessarily the same conservative segment).

As the saying goes, "go figure".


¡Si, soy PUMA!
by RonK Seattle on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:22:16 PM EST


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