Hillary's Horrible Healthcare Plan

Stop with the pitchforks, people! I don't like Kucinich either!

And to be honest, I don't like Obama's Health Care plan either (kindly accept my apologies for the hyperbole above. I just like alliteration).

They are both broken, both keep corporate and wall street interests involved. As far as I am concerned, they are both failed plans.

This is not to say that they would not improve matters. Far from it. But... They aren't panaceas, and they don't fix the big problems.

Nonprofit health care is what we should be shooting for, a place where everyone can be insured, and no one has to worry about anything.

Not a place where kids die from toothaches.

They both have flaws, and I'm sick to death of people saying "but he/she's is better!" Because to me that's splitting hairs. And we can do better than that.

(P.S. my last diary title was not snarky. So there!)



Display:


Re: Hillary's Horrible Healthcare Plan (2.00 / 2)

I'd much prefer a single-payer to Hillary's plan, but I have no doubt hers is superior to Obama's. And Edwards' was arguably better than hers.
Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:08:05 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Horrible Healthcare Plan (none / 0)

can you post a link on where to find edwards healthplan details? I thought clinton had pioneered all of this.


by Trey Rentz on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:28:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

as far as I remember... (none / 0)

Edwards was the first person going Universal.

Hillary was saying she might get around to it during her second term.

Your Sources On Kos.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

no (none / 0)

Edwards was the first person to offer a Universal health care plan in 2007.

hillary pushed in 93-94

Kerry pushed in 2004, Edwards criticized it


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:48:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no (2.00 / 1)

Single payer is the only true universal. Otherwise it's all just word games.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Point made. n/t (none / 0)


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:55:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why Obama's plan can't work.. (2.00 / 1)

I can't see how anyone can't see that Obama's plan is designed to fail.

http://www.economist.com/research/Econom ics/alphabetic.cfm?LETTER=A


Adverse Selection

When you do business with people you would be better off
avoiding. This is one of two main sorts of market failure
often associated with insurance. The other is moral hazard.
Adverse selection can be a problem when there is asymmetric
information between the seller of insurance and the buyer;
in particular, insurance will often not be profitable when
buyers have better information about their risk of claiming
than does the seller. Ideally, insurance premiums should be
set according to the risk of a randomly selected person in
the insured slice of the population (55-year-old male
smokers, say). In practice, this means the average risk of
that group. When there is adverse selection, people who know
they have a higher risk of claiming than the average of the
group will buy the insurance, whereas those who have a
below-average risk may decide it is too expensive to be
worth buying. In this case, premiums set according to the
average risk will not be sufficient to cover the claims that
eventually arise, because among the people who have bought
the policy more will have above-average risk than
below-average risk. Putting up the premium will not solve
this problem, for as the premium rises the insurance policy
will become unattractive to more of the people who know they
have a lower risk of claiming. One way to reduce adverse
selection is to make the purchase of insurance compulsory,
so that those for whom insurance priced for average risk is
unattractive are not able to opt out.

Wikipedia article on Adverse Selection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_sel ection

Mathematica Adverse Selection Simulation (free download)
http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/Advers eSelection/


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

World trade agreements (none / 0)

http://www.citizen.org/documents/Preside ntialWTOreport.pdf

"Many policymakers remain unaware of the WTO's expansive limits on domestic policy space and the
changes that must be made to existing WTO rules to implement their most prominent policy proposals.
Over the past dozen years, U.S. policymakers continue to express surprise when domestic non-trade
policies - including recently the U.S. ban on Internet gambling and in the past various environmental
policies - have been ruled to be WTO violations. In part, this lack of awareness stems from the way inwhich the WTO was initially approved. As newspaper reports indicated when a bipartisan coalition
approved U.S. membership in the WTO by wide margins in 1994 during a lame-duck session, hardly a
single member of Congress even read the 800-plus pages of WTO text.7
For this report, we reviewed the health care and climate change proposals of Sens. Hillary Clinton (DN.
Y.), John McCain (R-Ariz.), and Barack Obama (D-Ill.) - the three principal presidential candidates.
Our methodology was simple: we analyzed proposals outlined in documents on the candidates'
campaign websites, specifically in the issue-specific sections on health care and the environment. In
general, the two Democrats had very detailed proposals in both areas, while the Republican did not.
Our report thus unavoidably dedicates more page space to analysis of the Democratic plans. However,
we make no recommendations on what health care or climate proposals should be pursued by the
candidates, nor take any positions in support of or opposition to any candidate.
Candidates committed to ensuring their proposals become policy must address these WTO problems.
Among the needed changes is the withdrawal of certain key health- and environment-related sectors
from WTO coverage. Redressing WTO limits on U.S. health care policy space could not be more
urgent. Currently there are very few foreign insurance firms or health care providers in the U.S.
market, thus a withdrawal of existing U.S. GATS commitments in this area - which requires
compensation under WTO rules - will be less costly now than when there are more foreign firms
operating here in the future. Additionally, specific provisions of WTO agreements that limit domestic
policy space and flexibility regarding non-trade policies must be modified. And, elements of U.S.
offers to commit new policy space to WTO jurisdiction in the WTO Doha Round negotiations that
would impose new limits on non-trade policies must also be withdrawn. Finally, while not a central
focus of the report, we also identify as requiring renegotiation the North American Free Trade
Agreement (NAFTA) and other "Free Trade Agreement" (FTA) foreign investor rules that empower
companies to directly sue governments in foreign tribunals for taxpayer-funded compensation if health,
environmental or other domestic policies interfere with their future expected profits.
CHANGES TO EXISTING WTO RULES ARE NECESSARY TO IMPLEMENT
CANDIDATES' HEALTH CARE PROPOSALS
The WTO, which became operational in 1995, administers 17 different agreements, a minority of
which actually have to do with traditional trade issues like tariffs and quotas. For the purpose of
analyzing the candidates' health care proposals, the most important of the WTO agreements is the
General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS).8 Because the demand in the late 1980s by U.S.
government and industry to include the service sector of the economy in a trade agreement was so
controversial around the globe,9 GATS is structured as a "bottom-up" agreement. This means that the
agreement applies only to the service sectors each nation volunteered to bind (or "commit" in WTO
parlance) to the obligations and constraints set forth in the GATS text.
In 1994, the United States committed almost 100 service sectors - such as banking, insurance,
telecommunications, construction and gambling - to GATS constraints with little public discussion,
congressional debate, or understanding.10 U.S. GATS commitments include (and thus constrain) many
health services, including: (see above URL)


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Have you read the GATT? (none / 0)

I do suggest you send off for it. It is a more productive use of time than these blogs.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:43:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: as far as I remember... (none / 0)

"getting around to it" means creating the political will for it, which is what she screwed up last time.  UHC is still dead in the water today.  There must be such a tsunami of popular demand for it that our elected officials can withstand the hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars in negative ads that Big Pharma and the health insurance industry are going to throw at this (they will be fighting for their existence at that point).  Oh, and those industries will put up their own bought and paid for candidates for office also.

There must be a Democratic Administration, a supermajority in both Houses of Congress (filibuster proof in the Senate for sure), and a 5-4 liberal majority on the Supreme Court.  Getting all of this in place does not constitute "getting around to it."


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that Obama can create that tsunami (none / 0)

and I don't think that Hillary can. I understand this from talking with Republicans in my office;

I believe that Edwards presidency would have gone down in flames.

At least Obama and Hillary have Wall Street on their side.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:09:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama IS their bought and paid for candidate (1.00 / 0)

Its already happened..

>they will put up their own bought and paid for candidates.


http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money
by architek on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is quite simply not true. (none / 0)

and I am aghast that you might say something like that.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that Obama can create that tsunami (none / 0)

Then why is he doing it now?  He is not jumping up and down screaming for UHC, or even a path towards it (as Hillary was doing).  If we're going to get this, he has to start shooting for the whole enchilada up front.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think we are going to get it... (none / 0)

but if we do get it, it will be from congress.  Look for Kennedy and Clinton to take the lead.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's Horrible Healthcare Plan (none / 0)

Actually, no. Edwards was the first to come out with a universal healthcare plan this cycle. Hillary's plan is very similar, but Edwards did a better job of explaining how his mandates would work. There's a great clip of him discussing his mandates, but I can't find it right now. There's info about his plan at his site here, and if you go down the page about halfway, you can open a PDF file for further details. It was pretty widely agreed that his plan would do a better job of ensuring universal coverage. He even vowed to revoke Congress members' healthcare coverage if they didn't pass a universal healthcare plan by July of '09, which is awesome, though I'm not sure how well that would have worked.

I had a lot of trouble picking between Edwards and Hillary. Policy-wise, I preferred Edwards, especially since universal healthcare is really my top issue. His focus on poverty is also particularly appealing to me, since I've done so much volunteer work in that area. I only chose Hillary because I thought she was more electable. He got the shaft this cycle, despite the fact that he's an incredible candidate, and it really pissed me off.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

we agree on that much! (none / 0)

... maybe Hillary is getting the shaft too. I happen to think her ideas are not in synch with the changing electorate... but... by the same token, she would have been a lot better than a second bush term.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: we agree on that much! (none / 0)

Maybe. My main problem with Obama, honestly, is his healthcare plan. I wish he'd do something about it...


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our foremost Progressive Disagrees (2.00 / 1)

did you trust his word when he called bullshit on the summer gas tax suspension?

just curious.

i did.


by citizendave on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:11:48 AM EST

Re: Our foremost Progressive Disagrees (none / 0)

as an economic solution to the energy crisis, yes, he's right. But as a political step in setting a new paradigm where the oil companies don't get the hijack the nation, her plan is sweet.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our foremost Progressive Disagrees (2.00 / 1)

that depends. the oil companies that she proposed a "windfall" tax upon, are essentially free to pass that increase on to the consumer.

Just like the natural gas companies did when they were deregulated.

the bottom line is that it +was+ a gimmick and its going nowhere.


by Trey Rentz on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:30:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thats price gouging (none / 0)

and easily remedied by including a provions in a proposed windfall tax law.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thats price gouging (none / 0)

WFT would never have passed.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our foremost Progressive Disagrees (none / 0)

As a political plan her healthcare bill is doomed.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:53:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't know me. (none / 0)

sure. But please don't be a stranger!


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:42:21 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Horrible Healthcare Plan (none / 0)

Who gives a shit?
I have no health coverage.
I just found out that I won't receive a stimulus check -
Even though I have poverty-level income and paid a chunk in taxes.
If I do get sick and have to go to the clinic, I pay at higher rates since people without health plans are routinely charged far more than those under coverage.

And - as a gay man my relationships are declared illegal.
Yet we spend a trillion dollars to continue an illegal war.

I think West Virginia reveals that there will always be a large segment in any society that get fucked over.  And from all the "toothless" jokes at DKos and elsewhere - that most people don't give a damn.

I have no faith whatsoever in the system.
Fuck it.


by johnnygunn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:49:15 AM EST

Re: Hillary's Horrible Healthcare Plan (none / 0)

PS - The stimulus was Pelosi's bill.
And her office couldn't give a rat's ass that people such as me were somehow excluded.

It really makes me question why I bother voting Democratic.
I am certain that if I am left out of the economic stimulus package, I will be seven degrees of separation from any health package.


by johnnygunn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:52:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the stimulus package was a dumb idea... in the (none / 0)

first place.

I think my state tried to get older people covered...

It is wrong to have people who aren't wealthy enough to afford health care.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:57:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

do you know how much support edwards had at kos? (none / 0)

I don't think people are in favor of forgetting about poverty. Just that people get a little hot under the collar for no reason.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:58:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Single payer. No forced insurance payments. (none / 0)

Take it out of existing tax base. Pay for it by stopping the war machine.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:52:28 AM EST

Re: Our foremost Progressive Disagrees (2.00 / 1)

Having read quite a bit about the Obama and Clinton health care plans, it seems that they have one thing in common: I still won't be able to afford health care.

That in mind, I definitely prefer the one who won't also fine me for this, so in my case, Obama has the superior plan.


by Geiiga on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:15:35 PM EST

Re: Our foremost Progressive Disagrees (none / 0)

Krugman's problem is that he analyzes the plans in a vacuum, completely ignoring one critical aspect...

Clinton's plan is heavily reliant on Medicaid to patch the affordability gap.   Relying on Medicaid means you ALSO have to rely on every state's legislature and regulatory agency to play ball.

Krugman blithely assumes HRC can safely legislate a state-administered program at the FEDERAL level... which is simply nuts.

Whatever holes and issues exist in Obama's plan - it keeps Medicaid in the current role of 'gap filler' - and deals with the issue on a federal level.

Frankly, for Clinton's plan to be realistic - it needs to come with an endorsement and guarantee from every state and territorial legislature, every state and territorial governor, and every state and territorial agency that administers Medicaid.

Otherwise -- it all collapses like a house of cards, no matter how much better it might be economically in a vacuum.


by zonk on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:52:49 PM EST

And your suggesting is??? (none / 0)


by nikkid on Thu May 15, 2008 at 09:01:09 PM EST


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