Nebraska Caucuses Violate the "Spirit" of DNC Rules

Interesting debate bumped, jerome

On the front page of MyDD today, there are some who are touting the win of Scott Kleeb over Tony Raimondo in the Nebraska Democratic U.S. Senate primary [Source:  5/13/2008 MyDD blog "Scott Kleeb Wins Nebraska Democratic Senate Primary!"].

Let me begin by congratulating Scott Kleeb on becoming the Democratic Party of Nebraska's U.S. Senate nominee.  I wish him much luck in November.

Now, look at the vote totals for that primary...

...In the U.S. Senate race, more than 90,000 people participated in that Democratic primary.  Just to put that number into perspective, in the February 9th Nebraska Democratic Presidential Caucuses, less than half of the people (38,571) who voted in the Democratic U.S. Senate primary participated in the caucuses [Source:  2/10/2008 Nebraska Democratic Party 2008 Presidential Caucus Results].

To put things into further perspective, if Nebraska had held a primary instead of a caucus to choose its national convention delegates, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama would have been virtually tied.  Below are the results of Nebraska's Democratic Presidential Preference Primary:

Democrat - President  

Hillary Clinton - 43,614 or 47%
Mike Gravel -  3,864 or 4%
Barack Obama 46,279 or 49%

Source:  5/13/2008 Unofficial Nebraska Presidential Preference Primary Results

Now you know I've got to pull out my trusty Democratic National Convention Delegate Selection Rule book and cite y'all some rules.  It's what I do.
Rule 2.A

Participation in the delegate selection process shall be open to all voters who wish to participate as Democrats.

Rule 3.A

All official Party meetings and events related to the national convention delegate selection process, including caucuses, conventions, committee meetings, filing dates, and Party enrollment periods, shall be scheduled for dates, times and public places which would be most likely to encourage the participation of all Democrats, and must begin and end at reasonable hours.

Rule 3.B

All such meetings or events which are the first meeting or event in the delegate selection process shall be scheduled at times and dates which are uniform throughout the state, except where it is established by the state party and approved by the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee that such uniform times and dates would significantly reduce participation in the delegate selection process.

The short summary of these rules is that the Democratic Party of the United States A.) wants the delegate selection process to be open to all persons who wish to be known as Democrats; and B.) expressly prohibits the scheduling of delegate selection meetings that would "significantly reduce participation in the delegate selection process."

Now you tell me...with 38,571 Democrats participating in the Nebraska presidential caucuses and 93,757 Democrats participating in the Nebraska presidential preference primary, which method A.) opens the process to all persons wishing to be known as Democrats; B.) encourages the participation of all Democrats; and C.) does not significantly reduce participation in the delegate selection process.

Now I know what the 20,000 screaming Obama-maniacs would say. They'd say that rules are rules and Sen. Obama won the Nebraska caucuses.

But I would suggest that when more people participate in a so-called "meaningless" primary that doesn't count than participated in caucuses that did count, we know which process encourages the participation of all Democrats and which process allows a candidate to "game the system" in his favor.



Display:


Tips & Recs for Eliminating Caucuses... (2.00 / 28)


by andrewalker08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:06:10 AM EST

Tipped and Rec'd (2.00 / 12)

This is such an unsettling theme. Thank you for pointing this all back to how absolutely undemocratic caucuses are- directly from the mouth of the party.
by linc on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:01:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tipped and Rec'd (2.00 / 1)

cough

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/5/14/2 320/48687/172#172


by Yalin on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:30:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips & Recs for Eliminating (2.00 / 7)

About a decade ago I moved to Iowa.  Caucuses amused me at first.  Well, they still do because they are a weird thing.  Plus it's a lot of fun to meet presidential candidates.  Not just watch at a rally - MEET.

At first I thought - wow, the democratic process in action.  Some long-time Iowans taught me differently.  They pointed out that fewer people can participate in a caucus than an election.  My caucus this year was outside of town.  Without a car, you would be sunk.  There was no elevator in the building but we had to go upstairs.  If you had mobility issues... SOL.  Also, people who have night jobs (no, it's not all that easy for the working class to get paid time off for this process) are SOL, as well as parents who can't afford a babysitter for several hours on caucus night.  The list of who canNOT participate is long and worrisome.

I'm all for eliminating caucuses, and I have felt that way for eight years now.


by Montague on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't forget Military personnel (2.00 / 3)

serving overseas.  That there is no way for them to vote and participate, by itself, is a stain on the process of caucuses.

Can you imagine?  This is the most exciting and close primary election in a long time, and the soldier fighting overseas for the country does NOT have a choice of casting a ballot for his candidate in a caucus?  A vote on who should be CIC, a vote with a huge impact on his/her life, and on his family?

It's a bloody shame.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And Obama had zero say in how the Democratic (2.00 / 1)

primaries and caucuses were set up, unlike say the Clintons and their friends, notably Harold Ickes. Complaining you don't like how the system you helped set up works (and complaining only after you don't like the results) comes off as transparently disengenuous.


by DSloth on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:01:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you read what I wrote? (2.00 / 3)

I decided 8 years ago that it's a sucky system.  I'm not saying anything about who does and doesn't get helped.  Caucuses are not democratic.  Furthermore, Iowa never seems to produce the winner in the general, not on the Dem side.


by Montague on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not about blame (2.00 / 3)

This is about which type of venue is more representative and appropriate.  According to USA Today, the voter participation rate in Super Tuesday primaries was about five times higher than the participation in Super Tuesday caucuses.  This is the third example (the others being Texas and Washington State) of a primary result being markedly different than a caucus result in the same state.

What possible advantage is there in having this many states selecting their delegates by a less representative process?  


by lombard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And Obama had zero say in how the Democratic (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, late answer.

However, if you read my post, I say nothing about Obama.  I am only stating how unfair caucuses are and that they should be changed.  

Obviously, this is about changing them for the next election, not this one.  


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget Military personnel (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for pointing that out.  There is no "absentee" caucusing, which leaves out anyone who is out of town that night, or too sick to spend 3 hours at a caucus, or is serving in the military, etc.


by Montague on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't forget Military personnel (2.00 / 1)

Caucus is more about those who CAN attend, than ensuring that ALL should be able to attend.

The list of those who cannot attend is endless: single parents, shift workers including police, nurses, and firefighters, the elderly, the disable, and anyone without a ride/means to get themselves to the caucus site.

Who can afford to take 3 hours off in a mid-week evening, and then also have the means to get to a caucus site?


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips & Recs for Eliminating (2.00 / 1)

Not all caucuses have the same rules.  For example, Maine has caucuses but has an absentee ballot system allowing votes to be cast without attending.  

I would not be opposed if states that currently have caucuses changed to a primary system.  However, the purpose of a caucus is more than just taking a straw poll.  It is intended to be a forum for COMMITTED PARTY MEMBERS to consider who the best candidate for the target general election might be.  It may or may not actually succeed in doing that, but consider the current "Operation Chaos" kerfuffle.  It is much less likely that that sort of gaming of the system will work in a caucus, since the players have to show up and actually interact socially with the other party members.

The party rules cannot be construed as being intended to disallow a caucus because when they were adopted many states had caucuses.  Do you think there wouldn't have been a large controversy at the time, resulting in an all primary system if that were the intent?  The rules are meant to make the scheduling and procedures of a caucus or of a primary fair.  A venue without handicapped access is obviously a rules violation, just as a primary voting place with such problems would be.


by texasobserver on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips & Recs for Eliminating (2.00 / 3)

I do understand about the partial reasons for the caucus system.  

But if you want COMMITTED PARTY MEMBERS then why should anyone and their dog show up on caucus night and be permitted to go in and vote, committed Democratic or no?

As an attendee of three separate caucuses now, I can tell you that you do NOT know all your friends and neighbors, and there are always people at caucus that you have never seen before, but it would be gauche to try to suggest some of them don't belong.

Re: disabled access, I found it very strange, but no one said anything.  There was one guy on crutches and he managed with difficulty to negotiate the stairs.  The party was expecting big attendance and they scrambled for places.   Our district got the worst part of the deal, a truly third-rate choice.  A huge number of people never before seen at caucus were there.  Inside caucuses, I've seen party leaders who don't know/follow the rules and who are running the caucus do things that are clearly questionable, but everybody wants to get the eff outta there and go home after a few hours, so no one says anything.  I've seen paid staff from other states rounding up the votes - not this year - completely against the rules which I didn't know at the time but discovered later.  I myself have had to school some leaders at caucus.

I could go on, but it would take forever.  One more thing I'd like to mention is that Iowa propelled Kerry forward in 2004 and Obama in 2008.  Kerry turned out a bad choice in the GE, and I believe the same will occur with Obama.  Iowa has yet to make the choice that wins the White House, not including incumbents and sitting VPs who run in the primary.  Iowa has made the wrong choice in 1976, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996 and 2004. That makes the system appear broken to me, if its intent is to help get a Democrat in the White House.


by Montague on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:56:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One note ... (2.00 / 1)

If Nebraska used these primary results to allocate delegates (and did not use a caucus), the primary results would not necessarily be the same.

For example, Scott Kleeb got high turnout from his base in CD-3 which is the large western rural area of Nebraska. Hillary could be expected to do better here than in the more densely populated CD-2 and CD-1. This could inflate Hillary's numbers in the primary results.

Obviously primaries get higher turnout than caucuses becuase they are easier. But if this primary "counted", how do we know that the Dem turnout would not be 120,000 instead of 90,000. People did not show up to this primary to support a president, but other candidates on the ticket. Obviously, if the election counted for president  then the results could be remarkably different.


by Paranoid Humanoid on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One note ... (2.00 / 3)

Exactly.  When people know the primary doesn't count, lots of people just stay home, and we just can't know how that affects the outcome.  Here in WA, for example, my whole family stayed home from the meaningless primary, because the delegates had already been distributed in the caucus 2 weeks earlier.


by travelerkaty on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:20:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One note ... (2.00 / 3)

This is such a blindingly obvious point that it makes me a little sad it needs to be made. There is plenty wrong with caucuses, but plenty more wrong with using a beauty contest vote that everyone knows in advance won't count to try to prove anything.


by Mullibok on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: One note ... (none / 0)

Having a caucus and THEN having a primary later on seems a kind of insanity that makes the Iowa caucuses appear almost sane by comparison.


by Montague on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:59:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

understanding the rules (2.00 / 4)

Now I know what the 20,000 screaming Obama-maniacs would say. They'd say that rules are rules and Sen. Obama won the Nebraska caucuses.

In your rush once again to paint Obama's supporters as somehow insane, you conflate two points: what the rules are and what the rules should be.

Repeatedly on these boards I have seen Obama supporters agree with the notion that the primary/caucus process needs updating, clarifying, improving, what have you. I think many of us would like to see a more transparent type of contest regardless of which candidate we back.

But that doesn't change the fact that, as you so disparagingly put it, the rules are the rules.

Both candidates were (or should have been) aware of the rules before going into the contest. They both had the same rule books from each of the states to go by. That being the case, how can you claim that one candidate was able to 'game the system,' when the truth is that one candidate simply better understood how the system works.

Face it, Obama played a better game. That's why he's had the lead in pledged delegates throughout the ENTIRE campaign.


by vadasz on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:36:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: understanding the rules (2.00 / 1)

I am a strong Obama supporter, but I agree with the post suggesting that caucus results are less representative than primaries.  However, if we want to complain about undemocratic practices, perhaps we should start with the entirely undemocratic practice of having superdelegates in the first place.  Why is it that around 800 party regulars are essentially allowed to choose the candidate?  Why have anyone vote at all, let's just have these superdelegates make the decision and save the rest us us ignorant states all the time and money of giving our opinion?

Look, if there were only primaries and no caucuses (caucasi?), this thing might have been won by Clinton already.  If there were no super delegates, it would have been over in March with Obama on top.  It is what it is, and because there are both caucus states and superdelegates involved, it has yet to be decided.  I think it is disingenious however to pretend that we would know the outcome if "only it has been more democratic or more inclusive to the voters".

The whole process is unfair from one perspective to another, including the fact that we don't have every state hold their vote on the same day, sparing us all the momentum roller coaster that has been the last, almost unbearable, 4 months.


by JimmyJames01 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:07:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: understanding the rules (2.00 / 1)

I know that if the speed limit were to be raised on the route to my work, I would get there faster; I would save fuel and help the environment; and I would could sleep and extra 10 minutes in the morning.   (The road is safe enough and wihtout too much traffic, so safety is not a concern.)  Do you think the cop or judge will congratulate me when I decide to drive 15 MPH faster?

Of course I don't think I will work to change the speed limit, or for that matter make any public statement about it until after I get a citation.


by tominstl on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:36:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

going faster does not save fuel (none / 0)

... this is why speed limits got lowered in the 1970's. They're back up again, because after the '70's, everyone stopped paying attention to them.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:48:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: going faster does not save fuel (none / 0)

Come ride in my car and watch the guage.  If I drive 15 miles faster on the highway I save fuel.  The car is marginally more efficient at that speed, but I also run the car engone for a shorter amount of time.


by tominstl on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

gladly! (none / 0)

... will you drive me to Costco?

(I don't own a car)


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:22:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your car violates some fundamental properties of (2.00 / 1)

physics then.

The faster a car goes the greater the wind resitance which will (marginally) reduce fuel efficiency.


by DSloth on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your car violates some fundamental properties (none / 0)

Yes wind resistance increases with speed, but so does engine efficiency.  Try driving your car at 1mph for a whole tank and see what kind of mileage you get.

Optimal fuel mileage is somewhere around 55-60mph in most cars.  Higher in sleek cars, lower in boxy cars.


by ChrisKaty on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:20:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your car violates some fundamental properties (none / 0)

So a car moving 1mph will save fuel over ve a car moving 60mph, for the distance of a mile? What about a car moving 1/4mph over the distance of a mile?

Probably there are other factors involved apart from wind resistance ;-)


by reenactor on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:23:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: going faster does not save fuel (none / 0)

But then again, my original post was not really about fuel or cars anyway.


by tominstl on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It can be. (2.00 / 1)

Wonkish explanation of opposing factors:

1. To maintain speed, a car's propulsion has to act against ground and air friction.  Air friction is dominant at higher speeds, and actually increases with the square of the speed.  Which means that driving 20% faster will cost about 44% more fuel.

2. Car engine "thrust coupling" (not sure of the exact term) is optimized for certain speeds, depending on the engine.  A Porsch might get better mileage at 100mph than a Toyota Echo, for example.  As I understand for most passenger cars it's optimal at just under 60mph.  This is why highway driving is more efficient than city driving, even apart from the wasteful idling and breaking you do in the city.

So, depending on your car aerodynamics and engine design, you may save fuel up to a certain speed before the wind resistance effect becomes dominant.


by corph on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It can be. (none / 0)

Shame on me for buying a performance car built for speed!


by tominstl on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:15:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah if you're gonna speed anyway (none / 0)

it's best to go with a muscle car.  But you're not gonna out-mileage the Echo chugging along at 50.


by corph on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:12:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wahh! More Sour Grapes (none / 0)

We all (should) know that primaries that don't count aren't a fair indication of anything, as many would be voters stay home.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The DNC pays for caucuses (none / 0)

the state has to pay for primaries.

I love how you guys keep denigrating the process whenever it suits your fancy.

Caucuses also help ensure that there is no Rush Limbaugh effect.

It takes more of a commitment, and you get to network with your democratic neighbors and build the party, which was the original goal of having them in the first place, a sort of social neighborhood gathering of democrats.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC pays for caucuses (2.00 / 3)

What difference does it make who pays for them?  The goal here isn't to make sure that only the committed activists (like all of us here) get a say - any Democrat should get the opportunity to help decide who the nominee will be.

I'm a firm believer in closed primaries - any Democrat who wishes can vote by secret ballot. Elections aren't about networking and social gatherings, and we should be lowering the bar for participation in elections, not raising it.

Your thoughts on caucuses seem entirely in opposition to your signature line.


Yes, I am a Clintonista for Obama.
by Denny Crane on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:47:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC pays for caucuses (none / 0)

What difference does it make who pays for them?

Some people might think that it is wrong to have the taxpayers of a state pay for an election for a political party.  Political parties are essentially private institutions.
Check out McCain.
by you like it on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC pays for caucuses (1.25 / 4)

What an absurd thing to say:

Caucuses also help ensure that there is no Rush Limbaugh effect.

Why?

Also, your candidate was the one who openly asked republicans to be democrats for a day and vote for him.  

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds and no shame.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:55:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC pays for caucuses (none / 0)

Your hyperboles know no bounds ;)


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The DNC pays for caucuses (2.00 / 1)

Voting rights were fought for and won just so EVERYONE could get to vote, in secret, for her or his choice. Not just so activists who have more time to network can bring their buds to caucus.

The right to vote, in secret, with just you and your conscience in that booth, is what democracy is all about. Making the choice you think is best, in private, without intimidation -- and that doesn't spell caucus.

Caucuses are inherently anti-democratic. And any progressive knows this in her/his heart.

The Democratic party needs to end caucuses, superdelegates, the proportional system, and get back to a fair, all-inclusive way of choosing nominees.


by cuppajoe on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

obakasama! (2.00 / 1)

I bow to your very earnest wisdom, and hope that you find many diamonds in Chelm.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:49:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you! Thank you! (none / 0)

If it had not been for you I would have missed a critically important aspect of being a Jew of Polish decent.  I have already berated my father for not informing me of this great term (Chelm) and I will now cherish it.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:19:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Several problems here.... (2.00 / 1)

There are several problems with your post.

1) Obama has more primary wins that Hillary Clinton does.

2) Caucus counts aren't 1:1 with popular vote. They are delegate selectors.

In other words, there are several caucus states where a single 'vote' is actually representative of 5-10 people. Sometimes up to 20.

You can't state that 38,000+ votes in the caucuses is 1/3 of the votes received in the primary.

Hope this information doesn't ruin your meme too much.


by Yalin on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Several problems here, and offensive! (none / 0)

Now I know what the 20,000 screaming Obama-maniacs would say. They'd say that rules are rules and Sen. Obama won the Nebraska caucuses.

This kind of tone, bashing the supporters of the "eventual Democratic nominee", does not belong on the front page of a "Democratic blog". It's offensive.

This diary does not help anyone understand the caucuses better. It spreads more disinformation about how few people participate in caucuses. Sure, it's less, but you make a great point about how the votes are tallied. It also shoots a big hole in Hillary's "popular vote argument". If you take into consideration the actual participation in caucuses, Obama's popular vote margin is even greater than most people acknowledge...

I feel sorry for the Hillary supporters here. Your candidate is losing and it's almost over. EVERYONE running should have known the rules for each state before the campaigns started. Obama's team studied the rules; Hillary's team was not ready... That's why I don't think Hillary is ready to be president or vice president.

by power of truth on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Go ahead and make your case for eliminating them (2.00 / 1)

I've seen so far that they...

* Increase participation

Which is fine.  But, let's not forget that caucuses have some positives too:

* They help build party strength, especially in more rural states where the party is thinner on the ground
* They give a second dimension by which to measure the overall strength of a candidate

Since it takes more effort and time to caucus, you get the people who are able and willing to spend more effort and time -- and those people are likely to again be willing to spend more effort and time (and money) in the general election.  It's another measure of candidate strength.

I see your case -- increasing participation is a good thing, no doubt about it.  But it's not the ONLY thing, and pretending otherwise is at best myopic.


by Rorgg on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:36:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips & Recs for Eliminating Caucus (none / 0)

When did Obama call the white working class racists?  Please provide a citation.


by texasobserver on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (2.00 / 7)

Truly, perhaps almost as important as Hillary's official butt-kickin' of "the likely nominee" tonight in WV, IMHO.

Adds mega-fuel to the fire surrounding the concept of taking popular vote Primary results much more seriously and credibly than caucus results.

In fact, many, including major foreign press outlets, have said for over three months that perhaps the most important argument that may be made to a superdelegate to support HRC is when you strip out the caucus results and just focus upon the numbers from the states that had bonafide Primary elections.

And, the word: "thumping" was what CNN's John King called Hillary's landslide romp over you-know-who in WV.


by bobswern on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:10:35 AM EST

Re: A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (2.00 / 2)

If a SD were to have an interest in choosing which candidate would be the strongest in the GE, he or she might consider looking at primary performance only, especially in swing/battleground states.

Long story short, that'd be Hillary.


by Nobama on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:31:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (2.00 / 2)

If they looked at electibility and her over reliance of the Clinton Name and Gender Bias in the Democratic primary, where both those things were an advantage.  They would realize what an utter failure she would be in a general election matchup where they are not.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:26:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (none / 0)

Or they might look at general election match-ups, which show that both candidates can win, just in different areas.

Primary and general election performance is not correlated (unless you want to argue that Obama will win Georgia).


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah Yeah Yeah (2.00 / 4)

All that is happening, is that Hillary is galvanizing her voters against Obama even further. That's her goal. I don't think it does the party much good, personally. I also know you don't care.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (2.00 / 1)

Well, no.  In fact, you're flat wrong.

If a SD were to have an interest in choosing which candidate would be the strongest in the GE, he or she might consider looking at primary performance only, especially in swing/battleground states.

In the 31 primaries up to (but not including WV), including Texas (an amalgam) and Democrats Abroad, Senator Obama has won 18.

In the past 30 primaries (not counting Dems Abroad - for which I don't have numbers to hand but which Obama won), Senator Obama has garnered 1288 pledged delegates; Senator Clinton's total is 1262.

In the past 30 primaries (again not counting Dems Abroad), Senator Obama has won 50.5433% of the available raw vote total, while Senator Clinton has won 45.0666%.

Long story short, that'd be Hillary.

...you said.

What measurement for winning are you using?


by Jaime Frontero on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (2.00 / 4)

Adds mega-fuel to the fire surrounding the concept of taking popular vote Primary results much more seriously and credibly than caucus results.

Obama leads in delegate count if you only count primaries.

Obama leads popular vote count if you only count primaries.


McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
by PantsB on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That count must exclude FL and MI (2.00 / 1)


by lombard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That count must exclude FL and MI (none / 0)

Of course it does.

That would be because... they don't count.

Even The New York Times (which endorsed Senator Clinton on 1/24/08) doesn't include them.

The people who wrote the Party rules that exclude FL & MI, work for Senator Clinton.

Why would you include states where...

The voters were told not to vote, and that their votes wouldn't count if they did?

All candidates weren't on the ballots?

The Party agreed, and the candidates pledged that the delegates would not be seated?

Call it a quirk of mine, but my feeling is that we're Democrats.  We believe in rules, and in enforcing those rules.

Or we might as well be Republicans...


by Jaime Frontero on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A hell of a sidebar to tonight's WV thumping! (none / 0)

"you-know-who"?  What, is he freakin Voldemort?  You Clinton fans are getting more and more out there every day.


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Finishes Within 2 Points of Obama in N (2.00 / 5)

I proposed earlier that Clinton should try to get the WA and TX delegations seated based solely on their primary results, but that was ruthlessly hammered upon by Obama supporters, so I don't think you will get much sympathy here, though that is not what you are proposing.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:16:29 AM EST

Nope, just point out that caucuses inherently... (2.00 / 5)

...Violate the spirit of Rules 2.A, 3.A, and 3.B which A.) states the delegate selection process is open to all whom wish to be known as Democrats; B.) seeks to encourage the participation of all Democrats; and C.) expressly prohibits the scheduling of delegate selection meetings that "would significantly reduce participation in the delegate selection process."

Now I know what the 20,000 screaming Obama-maniacs would say.  They'd say that rules are rules and Sen. Obama won the Nebraska caucuses.  

But I would suggest that when more people participate in a so-called "meaningless" primary that doesn't count than participated in caucuses that did count, we know which process encourages the participation of all Democrats and which process allows a candidate to "game the system" in his favor.


by andrewalker08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:24:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope, just point out that caucuses (2.00 / 5)

Surely you're familiar with the concept of aspirational principles.  One could just as easily argue that all primaries that do not permit same-day registration also run contrary to the spirit of at least A) and B).  Should we chuck the results of all but those as well?


by rfahey22 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope, just point out that caucuses (2.00 / 1)

It's a question of degree.

We can't toss out a state because there was a snowstorm but we can discredit it when it consciously adopts a fraud-prone and voter-unfriendly form of administering an election.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope, just point out that caucuses (2.00 / 5)

I'm sure that you're smart enough to see the distinction between a random act of nature and a contest where both the candidates and the voters knew the rules ahead of time and which, historically, the voters of certain states have approved of.  If the system is good enough for the people of Nebraska, doesn't that suggest that it's not as "fraud-prone and voter-unfriendly" as you claim?  And, shouldn't they be the ones who make that call?


by rfahey22 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:37:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope, just point out that caucuses (2.00 / 1)

There in fact may be a discussion of whether the system is good enough for the people of Nebraska.  Architect of the NE caucus as much admitted that the move to a caucus was an experiment last night:

"Vince Powers, the Nebraska Democratic Party official who pushed for this year's caucus vote, said there will most likely be much discussion both in Nebraska and nationally on what form the next nominating process should take."


by wasanyonehurt on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fraud prone is primaries.. (none / 0)

sorry, but for all the folks who think that a Republican should NEVER be allowed to vote in a Democratic contest -- Dauphin County has more democrats than republicans now. 30 days before, they registered.

When it's just show up and cast a vote, it is more fraud prone.

That said, i think that both have flaws, and that some of the arguments here are disingenous. From what I tracked in Iowa, most candidates offered rides, and not just to their own supporters. Yes, this still didn't help those on EMT duty, but there are better ways than junking the whole system.

If you want to be conservative, that is. ;-)


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fraud prone is primaries.. (none / 0)

Didn't help those that were working as waitresses, janitors, night watchpersons, nurses, or that were taking care of the elderly in their families, or other family members either.

There are legions of people that caucuses just don't work for, legions.

The primaries we had in Arkansas were great. Almost an entire week, all day long, so you could pick a day and time that worked for you. There was also no intimidation, privacy, and it was very quick. Only took a few minutes, instead of HOURS.

Why ANYONE would want to do it any other way is beyond me, unless you want to CUT OUT a whole bunch of people, ESPECIALLY those in the lower financial classes.


by splashy on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:08:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

2nd Diary on the same subject, in the last hour (2.00 / 2)

Hmmmm.

what a coincidence!!!

Hillary44.com or Taylor??


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:23:51 AM EST

Opps, I was wrong (2.00 / 3)

it's not the 2nd diary on the same subject, within the last hour.

no.

It's the 3rd diary on the same subject, withing the last hour.

whatta coincidence.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gee! Maybe that's 'cause it's... (1.75 / 4)

...quite noteworthy! (And, virtually unnoticed tonight, too!) This is a story that happens to be worth three diaries! IMHO. May thirty of 'em if that's what it takes to bring it to the attention of enough people where it'll make a difference!

Then again, you can go over to DKos and read 12 diaries in 24 hours about Randi Rhodes calling Clinton and Ferraro a "fucking whore," with about 10 of those 12 being supportive of Rhodes! Now there's a story worth ten supportive tomes, right?

Has this even appeared on the MSM tonight. I didn't see jack about Nebraska on CNN tonight! What a damn shame. Time for those 30 diaries!


by bobswern on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gee! Maybe that's 'cause it's... (2.00 / 4)

I am suprised.  The MSM usually likes to talk about meaningless things as if they are significant.  I guess they were tied up trying to read something into the WV primary that wasn't there.

They really need to invest in a Ted Strickland bobblehead, so it looks like someone agrees with them.

Follow that up with Bill Clinton, praising how Hillary's base of low information voters can't get fooled like those informed college kids, and educated voters can.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:30:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

is this Faye Dunaway? (2.00 / 2)

HA!


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:31:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gee! Maybe that's 'cause it's... (2.00 / 6)

I call massive B.S. While there were a bunch of diaries about it on dKos (and here), almost all of the comments of the diaries were people shouting down any notion that this was acceptable. Which is pretty much what we should be doing en masse to anyone suggesting that we ignore caucus results from this election.

Change the rules for 2012, that's fine with me. But to suggest that we somehow ignore caucus results from 2008 makes all the posturing about MI and FL ten times more ridiculous. If the notion is that illegitimate elections that were conducted in the knowledge that they would not count are just fine, nothing wrong with them, no drop in turnout, no effect from lack of campaigning, etc, etc, while caucuses with full participation that everyone knew would count and the candidates participated actively in shouldn't count... that's a whole new level in disenfranchisement.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:49:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gee! Maybe that's 'cause it's... (2.00 / 1)

Hear Hear!


by miguelpakalns on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

P.S. Astrotuff (2.00 / 4)

fake grass roots.

it's too late to make a difference, but in the future, Peter Daou has to work on the coordination thing.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Finishes Within 2 Points of Obama in N (2.00 / 3)

I think her campaign should SUE the DNC.


by nikkid on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:25:29 AM EST

I'd pay to see that! (2.00 / 6)

Hillary!

please sue the DNC!!

please, please, please!!!


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:27:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'd pay to see that! (none / 0)

careful they will so declare you a troll


by Hillarywillwin on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:05:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, by all means sue (2.00 / 3)

Didn't she already threaten this tack in Texas to be sharply rebuffed? If you want the remainder of this contest to come to a screeching halt by SD, then by all means encourage your candidate to sue. I'm all for it.


by bookish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:16:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Finishes Within 2 Points of Obama in N (2.00 / 7)

Here's some mojo for that idea.

I want to see her do it wearing a neck-injury collar.


by Jordache on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:04:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Finishes Within 2 Points of Obama in N (2.00 / 4)

She can't, she's broke.


by John Poet on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:31:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Finishes Within 2 Points of Obama in N (2.00 / 2)

her campaign is broke.  She's still filthy rich.


by semiquaver on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

she ain't filthy rich... (2.00 / 1)

she isn't a billionaire.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Snerk (none / 0)

Come on.  When exactly did "annual income in 8 figures" become "not filthy rich"?

Not that I'm putting any aspersions on it.  Hell, I'd love to pull in $10M+ a year, and you could call me filthy rich all day long.


by Rorgg on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:41:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Since the number of billionaires (2.00 / 1)

got out of control.

Clintons, the both of them, have one chip. enough to buy a moderate company.

Hedge fund managers play with many chips.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:43:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, (2.00 / 0)

I should have said

"She's pretty rich, but not as much as some hedge fund managers.  And she's not a billionaire.  She's kind of rich, depending on one's viewpoint."

Hmm.  not quite as zippy.


by semiquaver on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Try upper upper class... (none / 0)

or hoitytoity, if you prefer a bit of color.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 01:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

always loved that term. (none / 0)

Hoity-Toity.   It sounds like a diaper-pail brand name.  I wonder what the etymology is.


by semiquaver on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If nothing else, this demonstrates that (2.00 / 3)

It weakens Obama's argument that superdelegates should not overturn the decision of hte  "pledge delegates".


by alright on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:34:48 AM EST

because WV is a swing state? (2.00 / 7)

4 years ago:

Bush won nationally by 2.46%.  He won WV by 12.86%.  He won WV by a large margin, even though, John Edwards (the son of a Mill worker) was on the ticket.

Bush won WV in 2000 by 6.33%.  He beat Gore in WV, even though Gore won the popular vote.  Even though Gore was the sitting vice president, even though Gore was a southerner, and even though Gore had a right-wing, holly-roller for a running mate.

The disproportional results prove WV is out of the mainstream.  It isn't Iowa (bush +0.67% in 2004 Gore +0.32 2000).

Congratulations on a BIG victory.  Enjoy it.

But claims that WV is a swing state, like Iowa, are not supported by GE numbers.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because WV is a swing state? (1.33 / 3)

West Virginia is a historically Democratic state that responds well to centrist Democrats like the Clintons but soundly rejects big-city elites like John Kerry and Barack Obama.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because WV is a swing state? (none / 0)

More elitist rhetoric from the camp of the $133 million dollar crowd.


by bookish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because WV is a swing state? (2.00 / 1)

elitism is not about how much money someone has.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then please define your meaning (2.00 / 1)

What makes Obama an elitist?


by bookish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because WV is a swing state? (2.00 / 4)

No, it's a disease which is relentlessly beaten upon by patronising demagogues because outsiders are scary and people who drink lattes are communists.

Let's not be retarded here. Elitism is about the elite, and the best way to get a place in the elite is through money. Hillary is part of the wealthy elite and mocking economists for being able to add up isn't going to change that.


Visit Forgotten Countries, my new foreign policy-based blog
by Englishlefty on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:49:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because WV is a swing state? (2.00 / 3)

How did Clinton manage to take her nine-figure income, blue-blood college educated, Chicago-born, New York City living self out of the elite category?

"elite" is a Rovian perversion.  To use it as a class warfare metric is a continuation of the divisive "dumbing down" of our culture demonstrated by the most recent 8 years. We only get Us vs. Them mentality, and we get pablum proposed as solutions.  Would it not be better to recognize the elite (those that show extraordinary expertise in a topic) as being GOOD to have as leaders?


by tominstl on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:50:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because WV is a swing state? (2.00 / 4)

Yes, and Texas was a historically democratic state until the early 80's. Things change. The last time WV was a democratic state for President was 1996. The population that voted for Bill Clinton is 12 years older and a lot of things have changed from then to now. I'm not saying it's not winnable -- the one poll that we have, nationally, shows Hillary winning it vs. McCain. I'd argue that there are issues with that poll (particularly when it was taken), but it's winnable. However, it's hardly a bellweather Democratic state any more than Texas is now. It might have been in the past; it's not now.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More like out of the Obama "spinstream!" (1.25 / 4)

No Democrat has won the general election since 1916 (nineteen freakin' sixteen!) without winning WV in the GE.

This is a major reality, certainly worthy of better denial and craftier spin than you're attempting to put on it here!

Add the Nebraska beauty contest results tonight, compared to the caucus results there, and there's a massive story worth spinning! Why? Because it's as credible and factual as it gets.

Unless you'd prefer letting the Republicans win the White House again, before giving the nom to HRC! Then where would you be? We couldn't be that pragmatic, could we? After all, we're DEMOCRATIS!  :-(


by bobswern on Wed May 14, 2008 at 02:59:54 AM EST

More like out of the Obama "spinstream!" (2.00 / 12)

Not only that: No one from EITHER party has won the presidency without a pink penis.  And that goes all the way back to the nation's founding.


by Jordache on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 9)

No Democrat has been elected since 1912 without winning Minnesota.

Two can play this game, and mine goes back further.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (none / 0)

Minnesota will be blue this November regardless of the nominee.

Wisconsin and Michigan are problems though.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 1)

Hillary is losing there, acccording to recent polling...


by LordMike on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lost the Arab vote... n/t (none / 0)


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:58:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lost the Arab vote... n/t (none / 0)

Probably.  How's she doing with the Welsh vote?  I hear they all count the same amount.


by Rorgg on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:45:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 3)

Ignore the half assed EV maps on MyDD.  THey don't follow Polling Averages and cherry pick polls.  Obama has led nearly EVERY Wisconsin poll but 2.  THe last one was a 1 day poll favoring McCain by Rassmussen, hardly the most reputable.


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:36:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 3)

A Democrat has never won the White House without winning Missouri. Checkmate.


by RBH on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 2)

May I direct you all to Lord Hadrian's excellent diary on the subject?  It's just two or three doors down from here.


by Jordache on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:29:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 1)

That is a good diary (in terms of prep work and presentation) but the analysis there is flawed.  Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Massachusetts are not "safe" for Obama.


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:31:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 3)

Speaking from personal knowledge, Wisconsin is not safe for Clinton, either.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:38:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Correct (2.00 / 1)

These inherent problems for the party in Wisconsin and Michigan make it all the more compelling to align with the candidate who can insure against losing their many EV's by bringing in the big red states: Ohio and Florida.

There aren't enough Nevadas and New Mexicos on the map to offset the deathblow Obama experiences if he loses MI, WI, or PA.  Clinton winning Ohio and Florida is huge.  I think she has a realistic chance of safely putting Arkansas into the Dem column as well as West Virginia.  Based on demographics, she is stronger in Missouri and new Hampshire also.  

I think Mass eventually will align with Obama, but the "perfect storm" there is the reason he's tied with McCain in the last six out of seven polls of Mass.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Correct (2.00 / 4)

You misunderstand me.  I believe that Obama will win Wisconsin and other states such as Michigan.  I have greater doubts that Clinton could win in Wisconsin.  Besides, so far as I know Clinton's path to electoral victory requires that she win the Kerry states plus a state such as Ohio.  It is not an option for her to lose Wisconsin.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Correct (2.00 / 3)

But Obama wins WI easily and MI close. Clinton loses them. That's a really big swing there.

Obama also wins PA, as does Clinton. Ohio's easily within Obama's reach. Florida is tough, but MI, IL, and IA make up for it.

Clinton has a 28% chance of carrying NH, Obama has a 27% chance. That's not a very big demographic swing.

I agree about AR and WV. However Clinton is 50-50 in WA, while Obama carries it easily, and Obama carries CO, NV, and NM, none of which Clinton has a shot at, and together are just as big as Ohio.

Their EV maps are different. Obama carries more EV and carries them more securely. That's the important thing.

Obama has an 82% chance of carrying MA. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:06:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 2)

Couldn't you say the same thing about Missouri.

D.C. ?

This argument is lame.


Obama/Clark will CRUSH John McCain
by spacemanspiff on Wed May 14, 2008 at 03:31:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More like out of the Obama (2.00 / 1)

Eh, I'm not being entirely serious.

Although Missouri gets to be first at the line due to seniority.

And why yes, you can send the DNC money-filled briefcases to my residence, i'll disburse them accordingly. ;)


by RBH on