What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In November

I imagine that the Obama camp is trying pretty furiously right now the insist that West Virginia's results only reflect the difficulty Obama would face in West Virginia in a general election.  In fact, Obama's crushing loss tonight reflects an important disconnect with a major Democratic constituency and it tells us about what we might expect in states like PA, OH, and MI come fall (states we can't afford to lose).  

So let's take a look at the lessons of WV:

Up until now one of Hillary's major arguments has been that she attracts a demographic that Democrats absolutely have to win over to have any serious prospects in November. In 2004, Democrats won four of the five industrial great-lakes states by only a few percentage points (and lost the other state, costing us the election), and the white working-class demographic with which Hillary does so well is an important demographic in the population of each of these states.

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Thus, the argument goes, if we conclude that Obama can't win over these voters we need to go with Hillary because that's the only way we have a serious chance in November.

That said, the main reply from the Obama camp thus far has been that Hillary's supporters will go over to Obama come November; that simply losing those voters against a Democrat in the primary doesn't indicate that Obama would lose them against a Republican in November.

Tonights results matter, then, because they, once and for all, put that reply to bed. There are two things to note about tonight's results:

First, West Virginia doesn't favor Hillary because it has its own unique demographic that heavily favors her; rather it favors her because it has a greater percentage of the same demographic that favored Hillary in other states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan. That means that just as we were able to infer the way West Virginia would vote tonight based on the way the demographic had voted in other states, we can draw conclusions about that demographic from the way they voted in West Virginia tonight. What the high concentration of working class whites in West Virginia means is that the exit polls from tonight are our best sampling thus far of working class whites.

Second, the exit polls from tonight we awful for Obama's prospects in November. The exit polls indicated that 44% of voters would only be satisfied if Clinton were the nominee. Worse, 53% of the electorate said that they would be dissatisfied with an Obama nomination. Moreover, a majority (51%) of voters thought that Obama was dishonest/untrustworthy while only 35% thought the same of Hillary. And it keeps getting worse because almost 50% of the electorate would stay home or vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee (only 26% would do this if Clinton was). Finally, a majority of voters (53%) said that Obama did not share their values (compare this to the 30% who said the same of Hillary).

To recap, then: The West Virginia exit polls are our best current evidence for what working-class white voters will do in the fall, and that evidence doesn't bode well at all for us if Obama gets the nomination. So even if you don't care about West Virginia itself, and even if you're willing to write it off in November to get Obama as the nominee, you should care about what West Virginia tells us that working class whites will do in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.



Display:


Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

November is a long way off....  

Any sort of polling data or analysis done right now should be taken with a grain of salt...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:01:05 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Maybe a pound of salt. Unless you are new to this business, those numbers (and what they represent in the mid-Atlantic and mid west states) are troubling. Lets pay attention to McCain's recent maneuvers with older voters (response of spokesperson to "losing bearings" comment--suggestion of "looky, looky...Obama doesn't like older voters), women (comments from spokesperson about clear misogynistic remark of an Obama supporter as to a Fatal Attraction comparison), and Catholics (a little nudge of Hagee to back off for starters.) Nope...the signs indicate lots more than a grain of salt.


by christinep on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Obama performed better among Catholics than Protestants in WV. He only lost Catholics by 6.


by elrod on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, JenKinFla has found her talking... (none / 0)

point for the rest of the campaign.  She said the same thing in other diaries to answer similar issues.

Unwilling to see or hear the truth.

Sad.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:54:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, JenKinFla has found her talking... (none / 0)

As are you unwilling to hear the truth. Hillary has NO chance of catching up to Obama in pledged delegates. Now if you think S.D.s are going to overturn the will of the voters you are deeper in denial then you even know. Savor the win, because this race is over.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The race is NOT over...that's where (none / 0)

you are ignoring the facts.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The race is NOT over...that's where (none / 0)

The fact that you are not willing to see is that Kerry was ahead of George W in Spring polling data... how reliable was that?


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:49:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

West Virginia Tells Us One Thing (none / 0)

Obama needs to win some other swing state.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:01:09 PM EST

Re: West Virginia Tells Us One Thing (2.00 / 1)

How about VA or MO?

Oh, right, he won those.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: West Virginia Tells Us One Thing (none / 0)

He'll win those fo' shizzle.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: West Virginia Tells Us One Thing (none / 0)

In a general election, the AA demographic in St. Louis will not carry near as much sway as in the primary. (Recall that Clinton was ahead until St. Louis AA demographic came in at the 90% level.) So, Obama would be faced with the prototypical midwestern demo without St. Louis democratic advantage.


by christinep on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

so in one (none / 0)

swing state how he did it in the primary matters but in another it does not. Sounds like a bit of cherry picking to me.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We'll need more than (2.00 / 1)

"working class whites" to win in November.

In fact, we'll need a candidate who captures sizable portions of each and every demographic, without alienating one group or excluding another for the smallest of potential margins.

Fortunately, it looks like we'll have such a candidate this November. It'll be the one who led the delegate race from the first contest to the last.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:01:19 PM EST

Re: We'll need more than (none / 0)

In fact, we'll need a candidate who will be the President for all working class people.
That candidate is clearly Obama.

The more the Clinton campaign keeps talking about 'white working class', the more they poison the well for an Obama victory in November.


Let the children lose it Let the children use it Let all the children boogie
by toyomama on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us (2.00 / 4)

This nails it.

even if you don't care about West Virginia itself, and even if you're willing to write it off in November to get Obama as the nominee, you should care about what West Virginia tells us that working class whites will do in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:01:47 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us (none / 0)

Actually, "white working class" is a category with a lot of variation in it.  The WV vote is not the MI vote is not the MT vote.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, wow. you don't know much about (none / 0)

Michigan, do you?


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bingo (none / 0)

Let's look at age. Let's look at religious affiliation. Let's look at Southern vs. Northern. Let's look at Appalachian v. lowland. Let's look at Rust Belt v. Western.  Let's look at men v. women.

Central PA voters are not the same as Bucks County voters - even if both are "working class whites."

West Virginia confirms what we've already known: Barack Obama is very weak among older, Appalachian, non-college educated whites.


by elrod on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (2.00 / 3)

"The West Virginia exit polls are our best current evidence for what working-class white voters will do in the fall..."

You are seriously and totally out of your goddamned mind if you think West Virginia is representative of anything other than West fucking Virginia.

I mean, a state with near as no African Americans and views that are comparatively backward (and yes, I have been there, and yes I have seen it) is not the same as, oh I don't know, Minnesota.

Or do white people in Minnesota not work very hard?

Seriously, you've really gone round the bend if you believe in Senator Clinton so deeply that you'll actually refer to these results as meaningful in any way beyond the results themselves.  She won West Virginia.  Good for her.

She lost Virgina by 29 points.  Why is that not relevant?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:02:27 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (2.00 / 1)

Contrats to Senator Clinton.  I hope you help figure out how to get the one in four of your WV supporters for whom race is an issue to trust a black person in office and that you'll be out there letting him know that he's not a Muslim -- and not, so far as you know.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:04:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

confirmed (2.00 / 2)

you know I've looked at  your comments in this thread, and I thought above with your comments on the variation in the term "working class whites" was beginning to try to start a race discussion.  I let it go, only to find you starting to do this again with this comment.  Can't resist, can you?

Get over it.  Obama does not do well with certain demographics.  Don't try to defend that with "they're racist", deal with doing some outreach to people.  

And stop assuming that your kind of "politics" matters to HRC supporters or that with your tactics, that you are going magically win over HRC supporters.  Keep it up at your own peril.


by 4justice on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

Now, now, Reaper...

...on MyDD, only states Hillary won are indicative of how Obama will do in November.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (2.00 / 3)

why is not losing in VA relevant? because it was a Dem primary where Wright hadn't occured, Obama had momentum, and the proportion of blacks, again like in other Dem primaries, was far higher than the 12 percent nation wide that blacks make up. That is why the VA primary don't mean shit. If Wright had happened before Iowa, Obama'd been out a long time ago. Also, the WV exit polls matter because maybe if John Kerry had done a little better with those working white voters in WV, which borders OH, Kerry would be running for re-election right now. I'd like that, as it wouldn't have been so divisive.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:05:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

With Wright, he still won handily in NC and came within 2% of winning (ie, within the Operation Chaos threshold) Indiana.

You're going to have to find a new scapegoat.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

he won NC because of the blacks!!! They make up triple the proportion in the Dem primary than in the GE in that state and country. OF COUSE he's gonna win that state.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

in the DEM primary with voters far more liberal than the GE


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:22:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

1. "The blacks"?

2. If Wright was as big of a deal as you say it was, why did he still come within 2% in IN and win NC by >10%?

2. Are black voters less important than white voters? If not, why do you think Obama's victory in NC should count less than it would have if there had been next to none of "the blacks" (like in VT, which he also won)?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

because Wright doesn't upset blacks, and they made up a huge proportion of the electorate which voted en masse for Obama, he got beat bad amongst whites, but i'll give him, he still got s few, but the high number of blacks put him over. Also, I am not saying the blacks don't count, but they are a group we will always win in a general. We need to win whites, the swing vote, in the swing states. Both those qualifications, and after Wright, Obama has kept losing whites.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:30:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

But that implies we can take black voters for granted, which I don't think we can any more than we can take any other demographic for granted. Neither candidate will capture every part of every demographic, so we go with the candidate who captures the most delegates, seeing as the delegates are a reflection of votes cast across all demographics.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

I'm not saying to actually take them for granted, or to tell them, but it may not sound nice, may sound cynical, but we need to focus on capturing other demographic groups. The blacks are not the only ones who matter, and yes the do vote for us everytime. I'm sorry if that doesn't sound politically correct, but its true.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

Your post is the definition of taking them for granted. A black vote is worth every bit as much as a white vote, and it does no good to win the white vote if you lose the black vote. That's why the candidate who's done his best to win both the white vote and the black vote is the one with the insurmountable delegate lead.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's about turnout (none / 0)

Without huge black turnout, we lose. Period. Gore won the popular vote in 2000 because of huge black turnout.

If Clinton were to win out in the race right now, black turnout would plummet. And she would lose the very states she claims to strong in - PA, MI, OH and FL. Without massive black turnout and 88%+ Democratic voting, we don't win those states - I don't care how well we do among working class whites.


by elrod on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

What is your explanation going to be when white, working class, rural voters in Oregon vote strongly for Obama next week?


by letterc on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:56:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

What % of AA democratic voters are there in North Carolina and what is 90% of that number? Wasn't it a foregone conclusion? (I'm not being politically correct, obviously.  But, is there anything analytically wrong with the first two sentences of this post.)


by christinep on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:46:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

Then Obama should lose the "hard working white" vote in Oregon then, right?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:22:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

it doesn't matter there, because the NOVEMBER SWING STATES are what matter. Oregon is not as likely to be one than West Virginia


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

November swing states like Missouri, which Clinton lost?


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

missouri is one of the few swing states he won, and it was because of the blacks, and it was extremely close, and because it was before Wright.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:28:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

parse much? (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

heh, "the blacks" (none / 0)


by Slim Tyranny on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In (none / 0)

Riddle me this, then, if Wright is such a defining issue. Why did Obama do better among whites in Pennsylvania than among Ohio? Why did Obama do better among whites in Indiana than in Pennsylvania?

Remember, Ohio was before Wright broke big. So explain why Obama is running better and better among white voters (WV being an exception, but there are a lot of reasons for that that were well known months before Wright was a story) after Wright than before?


by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Absolutely nothing.


by amiches on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:04:44 PM EST

McCain can't win in WV (none / 0)

he came in third in their causcus.

So it looks like it will be a tie or go to Bob Barr.


by notme54 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:07:29 PM EST

Re: McCain can't win in WV (none / 0)

He got 1% because his supporters realized that Romney was going to win and backed Huckabee to keep Romney from getting the delegates.  There's no indication that he would come in 3rd in a straight up vote and there's nothing to make us feel better about Obama in WV come fall.


by Austinitis on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain can't win in WV (none / 0)

Completely missing the point.

Primary results do not determine GE results. If they were, there are a lot of states both McCain and Obama would win and a lot of states neither would win.

There are a number of primaries that McCain lost that he'll win in the GE. There are a number of primaries Obama lost that he'll win in the GE.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: McCain can't win in WV (none / 0)

I can't get the rate window so work so I want to mojo the McCain comment.... Good point.


by redwagon on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What Hillary supporters tell us about themselves. (none / 0)

It doesn't matter if Obama has won more votes than Hillary.  She should win the nomination because her voters are whiter.

About right?

At this point, Hillary won't be able to overcome Obama's lead in the popular vote, let alone pledged delegates.  The only purpose that these diaries serve is to show that Hillary's supporters don't give a damn about either, and expect that their candidate should be the nominee because her voters are in some way more deserving of consideration than Obama's.

Which is pretty fucking abominable.


Support Regina Thomas, GA-12
by Drew on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:07:49 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Here we go again.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....


Obama/Clark will CRUSH John McCain
by spacemanspiff on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:13:29 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us (none / 0)

It tells us Obama has to work harder to combat the false smears against him (Muslim, Ayers, Rezko, Flag Pin, etc.).  Misinformation seems to have played at least some roll in the results tonight.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:17:42 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

"...what West Virginia tells us that working class whites will do in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan."

We don't have to ask West Virginia the most important question about voters in PA, OH, and MI, because they had their own primaries.

Pennsylvania:
Democratic votes cast - 2,306,664
Republican votes cast - 807,123

Ohio:
Democratic votes cast - 2,186,831
Republican votes cast - 1,287,418

Michigan:
Democratic votes cast - 589,984
Republican votes cast - 867,271

Looking at these numbers, I'd say our chances in the fall are pretty good in Pennsylvania and Ohio, but that there's clearly work to do in Michigan.

Obama will be in Michigan tomorrow.


by Ddeele on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:17:48 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

The great state of Michigan had their primary invalidated by moving their date up past the limit.  The Dem turnout was depressed due to this, and many Dems crossed over to vote for Mitt on the Republican side - a double whammy.  So, I would guess that MI is closer then those numbers show.


by Lawyerish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:19:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

I tend to agree, but that only adds to the work to be done in Michigan.


by Ddeele on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

This is also a great arguement against seating the Michigan Delegation as is to the convention.  With the vote being depressed so dramatically there is no question that it was not a fair representation of what it would have been had those nimrods not moved up the date


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (2.00 / 1)

In the 2006 elections, Democrats lost 'working-class whites'

In

Nearly

Every

State

And we f*cking creamed 'em.  Everywhere.  The idea that the Dem party lives or dies by winning this group is bull crap.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006/pages/r esults/states/US/H/00/epolls.0.html


by Lawyerish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:18:04 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

You are correct.  But Clinton supporters will ignore it.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

2006 wasn't winner take all like the electoral college.  

Even a 1% defection can sink us.  


by Austinitis on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Again, that's bull.  How many of them are going to be defecting to us?

Lots of them will. Others on their side support Ron Paul.  Others just won't vote at all.

We have to turn out our vote big-time.  There's no doubt that there's a lot of work to be done between now and November.  But the idea that they are on equal footing with us is preposterous.  We're winning special elections in red districts, we wiped them up last time, and their candidate is tied to the must unpopular man in America pretty tight.  It's not the dire situation you make out.


by Lawyerish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama (2.00 / 1)

West Virginia tells us something about white voters in Appalachia.  Beyond that, not so much.  Let's not expand the demographic beyond what the evidence tells us.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:18:39 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama (none / 0)

How big is Appalachia? By your definition, does it include Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Kentucky, and West Virginia? In any event, that grouping includes a substantial portion of US voters...and significant swing state dimentions.


by christinep on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama (none / 0)

Parts of OH, PA, and TN. More of KY. Most of WV.

WV is barely a swing state; Clinton has a shot at it. TN and KY are in no way swing states. PA is not a swing state. OH is only somewhat a swing state; Clinton polls better there, but Obama's polling is hardly a margin that can't be overcome in the GE.

So, no, Appalachia doesn't have significant swing state dimensions.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What it really tells us about November? (none / 0)

In all likelihood, Clinton will not overtake Obama in number of votes. Barring that I see little justification in naming Clinton as our nominee. So what it tells us that we should get ready for 4 yrs of McCain. Considering the propensity with which the Dem Party chooses the wrong nominee, who knows it might be even 8 yrs.


by ann0nymous on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:22:55 PM EST

Clinton (none / 0)

As an Obama supporter I just want to congratulate Senator Clinton and all her supporters on her win in West Virginia tonight.


A vote for John McCain is a vote against Hillary Clinton
by realistdem on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:34:31 PM EST

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

I second the congratulations!


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

There's no question that Obama has some work to do with working class whites.  

But if you think about it, his campaign hasn't yet been tailored to them.  It's not overly populist, it's main calling card is soaring rhetoric...just not a lot that would win a strong majority of working class whites.  

So the question then becomes this: WHEN (not "if") Obama refocuses his campaign to this demographic --- which he will because this demographic is key to Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and (obviously) West Virginia --- how successful will he be in winning them over?

We can't simply assume that the primary blocs will remain in opposition to the nominee.  I wouldn't assume Hillary can't win black voters in the general, or college educated Dems, or any of the other demographics that have favored Obama.  It just isn't so.  So we need to see how successful he'll be.  I think he'll spend some time courting that demographic, and the extent of his success might determine his VP choice more than any other factor.


Donate to Obama, Today!
by freedom78 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:45:36 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

I just noticed another thing that West Virginia tells us.

Even though Obama's getting beaten like a rented mule, he's getting more votes than McCain.

My estimation of West Virginia just ratcheted up a notch.


by Ddeele on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:52:43 PM EST

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Ds outnumber Rs in WV 2:1 and yet polls say McCain beats Obama by a wide margin there.


by Nobama on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Presumably, whoever loses the Democratic  nomination fight (and I'm looking at you, HRC) will campaign hard for the nominee.

There's no doubt that WV prefers Hillary, but tonight's results give me hope that with her help, we will be able to keep this Democratic state blue in November.

End the war.
Restore the Constitution.
Salvage the Judiciary.
Rebuild the Middle Class.

Screw McCain.


by Ddeele on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

I don't think she will, not because I don't think she wants to, but because I don't think anyone could continue to campaign this hard for this long without intending to win the nomination for themselves.  

She's just going to be worn out, is my guess.  


by Austinitis on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

I disagree.

I think she genuinely has the best interests of the American people at heart, and will do whatever is necessary to preserve, protect, and defend. This year, that means keeping McCain's grubbies off of the Presidency.

I have never subscribed to the theory that she's "all about Hillary." Any objective judgment of her actions over time would reveal this. She could have retired in luxury years ago, and pulled strings of power from a comfy distance from all this electoral garbage.

She's not in it just to win; she's in it to do good.


by Ddeele on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

She's going to have plenty of time to rest between early June and late August. She'll be in a position to campaign very hard for the nominee.

If she wouldn't be, then she'd hardly be a very viable nominee, would she?


by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

WV telling us: Obama has no chance.
He is just a black candidate with support of dkos-like idiots.
McCain will crash Obama in landslide, it is why supers should endorse Hillary and unendorse Obama.
Sooner the better
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:55:53 PM EST

What West Virginia Tells Us About West Virginians (none / 0)

They hate Obama, and they think Hillary is still politically alive. Enough said.


My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:31:28 PM EST

but I am not criticizing West Virginians (none / 0)

For exercising their right to pick who they want to vote for, or questioning their integrity.
They voted, Hillary won, end of story.
My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What West Virginia Tells Us About Obama In Nov (none / 0)

Obama will lose the Appalachian General Election in a Landslide!

Fortunately, there are a lot of other states that get to vote in November. Even a lot of states that Hillary called important tonight.

In 2000 and 2004, Democrats lost Appalachia in a landslide.

In 2008, if Obama can't make inroads in this area, he will too.

Fortunately, the 2000 and 2004 elections were very close, and there are a great many places were we can do better. I don't think Obama should give up on Appalachian America, but they arn't his only option to victory. Tonight says nothing about his chances in November.


democracy!
by BlueGAinDC on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:38:58 PM EST

Yeah (none / 0)

It is kinda hard to imagine many Americans basing the choice they make on the ballot on how Appalachian Americans have voted in their primaries.
I have nothing against West Virginian, I am sure it is a great state, but my vote is not going to be dictated by what happens in West Virginia.
My thoughts on McCain: I have no desire to let that idiot fulfill his desire to "Bomb Iran"
by Otaku Saru on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with your (none / 0)

Observation but not with your conclusion.  WV was like condensed milk, alot thicker and sweeter for Sen. Clinton but not something you can use every  Like condensed milk, in small doses it might  day.  It taste good in small doses but but you can't use it and then say it's the same as regular milk.  

My point, pointing to WV as instructive would be like using Washington DC, Obama's version of condensed milk.  

The only thing WV shows is what would happen if 50 states tied for being the least educated, highest food stamp subscription rate, 95% white and old.  

An addiotnal point, what democratic president has won "working class whites* in the last 50 years?

Not Kennedy
Not LBJ Even with 61%
Not Carter
Not Clinton 1
Not Clinton 2

(Truman was the last)


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:05:04 PM EST

How did I mess that up.. (none / 0)

Sorry for the mix up in my post above, that's what I get for watching the Hornets vs. Spurs game while tryin got post.

The word day that ended up in the second line was supposed to be at the end of the sentence "Not something you can use every day"  How it wandered down to the second line is a mystery to me. ;)


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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