"I Wasn't A Decision Maker"

This was Sen. Obama's response when asked about a letter he'd sent out on behalf of his good friend Tony Rezko back in 1998.  He blamed it on his staff and said it was a routine form letter that went out over his name when he was a State Senator.  

This seems to be a pattern with him.  Given that we probably won't ever see his papers from his time in the IL Senate we don't have much to go on regarding his past work experience, so we'll have to look at how Sen. Obama runs his campaign to gain insight as to how he'll staff up his administration and fill his Cabinet should he make it to the Oval Office.  Unfortunately, given what we've seen over the past 15 months I'm not encouraged.  We've seen him make one excuse after another for missteps and mistakes in his campaign.  From that D-Punjab memo last summer, to his tour with a "cured" ex-gay gospel singer that his staff failed to vet, to those questionnaires that he claimed were filled out by staff yet were found to contain his very own handwriting... Well, he's spent a fair bit of time placing the blame on his staff or saying it's their fault for failing to keep tabs on what's been happening under his watch.

Jake Tapper's been keeping track of it all and he's posted an update on his blog at ABC today that adds another one to the count.  Take a look...

Obama's Inability to Hire Good Help Rears Its Head ... Again

Yesterday, in an interesting New York Times look at Obama's rise in Chicago politics, we learned that in 2004 some Jewish supporters became alarmed to learn that in a questionnaire Obama refrained from denouncing Yasir Arafat, or from expressing strong support for Israel's security fence.

Reports the Times: "In an e-mail message, Mr. Obama blamed a staff member for the oversight, and expressed the hope that 'none of this has raised any questions on your part regarding my fundamental commitment to Israel's security.'"

In January, during MSNBC's presidential debate in Las Vegas, Obama was asked about a document put together by one of his South Carolina staffers that listed comments made by the Clinton campaign that some perceived to be attempting to stoke racial fires. "In hindsight, do you regret pushing this story?" asked Tim Russert.

"Our supporters, our staff get overzealous," Obama said. "They start saying things that I would not say, and it is my responsibility to make sure that we're setting a clear tone in our campaign."

Then there was that 1998 letter Obama wrote to city and state housing officials on behalf of his friend Tony Rezko.  

The letter, Obama said, "was essentially a form letter of the sort that I did all time. And that I wasn't, by the way, aware of."

A reporter asked: You weren't aware that he was associated with the project?

Responded Obama: "I wasn't even aware that we wrote the letter. The answer that I gave at the time was accurate as far as I knew...This was one of many form letters, or letters of recommendation we would send out constantly for all sorts of projects. And my understanding is that our letter was just one of many. And I wasn't a decision maker in any of this process."

 (Emphasis added)

Ummm... I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's bothered by that bolded bit above.  He was a State Senator.  The letter went out over his signature and yet he's saying he wasn't a decision maker in that process?

So, for those keeping track at home, that's ten instances of Obama publicly blaming his staff for various screw-ups.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10!

(You of course could also add Austan Goolsbee, Samantha Power, Gordon Fischer, and retired Gen. Tony McPeak.)

That would be 14. We will continue to keep track.

And for the record, yet again, let me state that I find Sen. Obama's staff unfailingly competent and polite, courteous and efficient, and I once again express my regret that Sen. Obama does apparently not feel the same way.

Finger pointing and buck-passing.  Wow... is this really the kind of leadership we want in the Oval Office guys?



Display:


Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.88 / 17)

If we need anything right now, it's someone who can make decisions and stand by them.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:19:47 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.80 / 10)

Hint - that'd be Hillary in my book!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 5)

She sure stood by her Iraq vote for a long time.  Good for her!  Gotta stay the course!


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 4)

Like Obama's buddy Kerry, Hillary was in the Senate and had to cast a vote, and she did. I presume you voted for Kerry in 2004?  Nobody's perfect, but at least she hasn't complained that she wasn't a decisionmaker.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

Sorry, she sure was a decision-maker. As one of the best known Dems in the country, she could have read the NIE and could have voted against the war.

I marched on a cold, cold day to try to stop that war. I made a decision about how I stood and so did she.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.00 / 1)

A lot of people are upset with her "authorization" vote.  That's been evident in this primary and by the support by the "moveon"ers toward Obama.  Seems to me to be a single issue nomination.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 5)

For many families and friends of fallen soldiers it is the ONLY issue.


by zep93 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 7)

Besides a speech, when marching did Obama do? What protests did he lead? What action did he take to end the war? Where are his letters, protests, bills introduced to stop the funding?

Hmmm... his resume in that department looks mighty thin.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 2)

If I say so myself, Helen Thomas says it all (see my sig.)

And yes, she was really appalled at the media when she said that.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

What did Martin Luther King do to take the highest office in the land?

For that matter, what has Hillary done?  Been reelected to the Senate seems to be the only answer.


by Jordache on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly.... (2.00 / 2)

Outside of Obama's statements against the war, he has made zero statements against the war.

Such a knowing voice.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, double negative (2.00 / 4)

You may have misread my point.

Did you vote for Kerry in 2004?

I also worked against the IWR from the very start.  Unfortunately a whole lot of people in Congress voted for it.  Personally I'm fairly certain Obama would have, had he been in there.  The thing is, I've voted for people who have not always done as I would wish.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:08:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (2.00 / 3)

Clinton defended that vote for a very long time. And I think that she didn't take responsibility for her act until she very grudgingly admitted it had not been a good idea.  And this diary is about taking responsibility.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (2.00 / 1)

Now that you keep refusing to answer my question, I'm even more determined to hear whether you voted for Kerry.  The reason is, of course, that I wonder if you hold Hillary to a higher standard.  

The thing I have the most problem with, when it comes to Hillary, is the AUMF vote.  She did take responsibility, though.  She didn't attempt to deny what she had done.  My own belief is that it was a bad vote.  At the time when I said that, I was in a small minority and was sometimes vilified for saying it.  Now, of course, the country realizes people like me were prescient.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (none / 0)

Yeah. And I worked hard for Kerry. But he admitted it was a bad vote long ago.  Hillary took ages to do it, long after it was very, very obvious what a bad choice it was. I try to teach my kids that they have to fess up when they make a mistake. By doing so, they will get more respect than they lose.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:28:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the point is (none / 0)

that we'll work for and vote for whoever the nominee is, even if we don't support them in the primary season. I don't support Hillary, and one of the main reasons is because of her vote for AUMF and against the Levin amendment. If she'd become the nominee I would've supported her for president, though.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course we should have a higher standard. (2.00 / 1)

What a sucky argument.  "But, but, but, Kerry did it!?!?!"  Bwhahaha. Of course, we ABSOLUTELY SHOULD have a higher standard.  Kerry was running against an incumbent who had 90+% approval ratings during his first term, and 50+ throughout most of 2004, plus a media environment dominated by Fox News.  The GOP brand has taken a beating since, and we absolutely should be holding our nominee to a higher standard and expecting more from (ahem) him.  

And while you may be right that Obama would have voted for the AUMF when he was in the senate, the fact is that he did not.  You can whine and say that's unfair to your candidate, but this isn't a contest to be fair to Hillary.  Taking responsibility isn't about what's fair to you, it's about owning up for your action.  And Hillary was absolutely disgusting and Bushian in her refusal to admit her HUGE, OBVIOUS mistake.  It would crystalize, once and for all, the weakness and surrender of the Dem opposition to GOP war-mongering to nominate someone in 2008 who voted for the war and refuses to commit to ending it.  What better way to bookend this era in history as the one in which Lieberdems and their DLC patsies aided and abetted the GOP in their war crimes and affronts to human decency?  Thank God the DLC doesn't run this party anymore.  What a bunch of morons.  

P.S. This diary, like so many of Alegre's, is really awful and bad for he party.  It's obvious that she, like Hillary (and Jerome), puts her right to stamp her feet above the best interests of Democrats.  And yet there it goes straight to the top of the rec list.  You Hillary supporters really need some better quality control.  It's absolutely hilarious that Hillary supporters would question Obama's ability to hire people, like that's a favorable comparison.  She went into this race with more advantages than any candidate in recent memory, and lost because the incompetents who ran her campaign (a.k.a. the pople who pay Alegre's salary) were too dumb to realize their error in focusing on "big," "important" states.  You're going to have to come up with better anti-Democrat smear jobs than this if you want to ruin Obama to maybe give Hillary the chance to get crushed by McCain in 2012.


by msbatxnyc on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:02:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (1.66 / 3)

I think your question is to politicsmatter.  However, I would like  to say I voted for Kerry, and Gore, and I even voted for Obama for Senate.  I just don't think he's ready for prez.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:16:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (none / 0)

I, too, voted for Gore and Kerry.  Kerry's AUMF vote displeased me enormously, but there's never been a candidate who was with me 100%.  We have to look at the overall person, and what's important in the race.   Like trying to get Junior Bush out of the WH.

In addition I was pleased to see Obama win the Senate seat.  I agree with you that he isn't ready.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:19:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (none / 0)

So I hear you have concerns about experience. McCain has NO executive experience and his policy positions are dangerous.

anyway, you have to make choices between imperfect candidates, as we all do.  That's how elections work.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:30:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (2.00 / 1)

You are right, we make choices between imperfect candidates.  I think Chitown Denny has made the reasonable choice of Hillary Clinton.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:43:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um, double negative (2.00 / 1)

he's a weirdo, for sure.  Either of ours is head and shoulders, but she's the best, and looks like she's positioned to win the GE.  She's got those working class white guys who never vote for a dem prez, but vote dem down-ticket. They're big on national security and she has a great relationship with the military, who totally back her Iraq exit plan which includes outlawing private armies and canceling Bush's no bid contracts. She also has hundreds of years of foreign policy wonks and retired diplomatic corps people.  But the poll that they like her moxies, she doesn't whine, or complain, she just keeps going toward the goal. She's practical and she's relentless and for some reason these guys are voting for a girl. That is amazing, she can bring the country together. Pug women like her too, even though they disagree with her policies they also want out of Iraq, and they know she'll clean up the bush mess.  It's always that way, if it's dirty enough let the girl do the hard cleaning. I"m sure they'll expect to take it back in 8 years when things are smooth again and we all have insurance, but I think getting a taste of a responsible and competent president will lead us away from the big personalities and maybe let some more girls in the door.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah (none / 0)

obama might have "had pizza" with monica too.....but we'll never know.

i am so tired of this high-pathetical. (the pun is always intended)


by citizendave on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:21:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

politicsmatters,
Where the heck do you get your info? Do you simply repeat what you hear? I'm not very familiar with your postings but I'm under the impression that you're a much sharper tack then you've let on in the last comment..
If you're really interested in what happened leading to the invasion of Iraq - please skip  David Corn and Noam Chomsky, okay?
And read this - and if you're like some Obama supporters who think Pat Lang is a racist because he had the nerve to write historically about the Confederate Secret Service, please don't bother. And I will be disappointed in you.

http://www.mepc.org/journal_vol11/0406_l ang.asp

OK, for starters let's say I'm not thrilled about the AUMF yea vote and I will say Hillary, like others was duped. And I'm proud both of my senators, Levin & Stabenow voted nay. Hillary made the mistake of believing GWB, a sitting president would not lie and pull the inspectors out before they were allowed to finish their job.
All the dissensions were taken out of the 27 page NIE. The INR & the Dept. of Energy's dissension[s] Energy were removed.

From Drinking the Koolaid..

First, there was the consistent refusal to provide witnesses and information to the U.S. Senate, especially regarding the projected costs of the war and the lack of opportunities to question key players such as General Jay Garner, who was appointed by the Defense Department to be the first head of the U.S. provisional authority in Iraq. There was also the subtle hiding of the objections of the Department of Energy and the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) in the NIE of October 2002. One congressional source explained that the classified NIE was made available in its entirety to only a select few members of Congress. There were verbal briefings and an elaborate process to access the document in a secure location. But it was never clear that the 27-page unclassified version that was available to every office was missing any crucial information.

There were also false statements to Congress about providing the U.N. inspectors all the intelligence that might have helped them locate the Iraqi WMD and programs. Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan has accused the administration, and especially CIA Director Tenet, of withholding information because "the truth" -- that the United States had withheld the locations of 21 high - and middle-priority sites -- might have slowed down the drive for war. The truth might have convinced Congress to take action to delay military action until the inspections were completed.

The March 7, 2003, appearance by the chairmen of UNMOVIC (Hans Blix) and the IAEA (Mohamed ElBaradei) before the U.N. Security Council was a disaster for the neoconservatives. The Iraqis and Saddam Hussein had "accelerated" cooperation with the United Nations, said Dr. Blix. Blix told the Council that Iraq had made a major concession: they had agreed to allow the destruction of the Al Samoud ballistic missiles. "We are not watching the breaking of toothpicks," Blix said. "Lethal weapons are being destroyed. . . . The destruction undertaken constitutes a substantial measure of disarmament -- indeed, the first since the middle of the 1990s."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

Now the Al Samouds were very expensive to make for a country under sanctions and under the watchful eye of Centcomm. Saddam allowed unprecented access to the inspectors and the Samouds were destroyed until the inspectors were pulled out.

The the mission of disarming Saddam was being accomplished.
And on Mar. 7, 2003, ElBaradei blew the neocons out of the water and destroyed their story completely with his revelation of the forged documents and the aluminum tubes.
Col. Lang says..

But it was after the next presentation, by IAEA chairman Mohammed ElBaradei, that "all hell broke loose" in Washington. ElBaradei, in his statement, sank the U.S. intelligence community's prestigious NIE, President Bush's State of the Union address, and Colin Powell's February 5 address to the U.N. Security Council with one blow. ElBaradei was calm in what he had to say: "Based on thorough analysis, the IAEA has concluded, with the concurrence of outside experts, that these documents, which form the basis for reports of recent uranium transactions between Iraq and Niger are, in fact, not authentic." The Niger yellowcake documents were forgeries. Then, ElBaradei told the press that an IAEA staff member had, in fact, used the common search engine Google to determine, within hours, that the Niger documents, which had been passed on to the U.S. embassy in Rome through an anonymous source, were fakes! Members of Congress then began to grumble. In light of the contradictions, a bill was introduced demanding that the administration disclose the intelligence reports that were the basis for the statements made by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell about the Iraqi WMD threat. It was still locked in committee when the war began.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/07/sprj.ir q.un.transcript.elbaradei/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

Yet at that point, it didn't matter. This WH had other plans and betrayed the trust of congress, the UN and the American people. Bush simply said the destruction of the Samouds was proof of the duplicity of Saddam. Blix, ElBaradei and others were aghast.

Then Illinois state Sen. Obama took a guess. He has admitted it but it is a far different story from what some of his followers say. Good for you for marching - and may there always be those that do - but neither you or I knew of the stunning level of duplicity. Ask Joe Wilson.


by durendal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At least Kerry had the sense (none / 0)

to recognize the error of his ways. After the 04 elections he apologized for voting for the war, said it was the wrong thing to do, that the country was worse off for it.

Hillary doesn't think there as anything wrong with her vote for the war. Has repeatedly refused to apologize for it.

Even John Edwards has been honest enough to say he made a mistake when he voted for the AUMF. Hillary, not so much.


by Tatan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At least Kerry had the sense (none / 0)

A woman or a black man couldn't get away with an apology for that vote.  Actually, now that I think about, even white men didn't get away with it.  Because I don't see Edwards or Kerry in the White House.

Maybe Hillary really believes that it was a vote to empower inspectors in Iraq.  It's just that it was never ever a good idea to trust the chimp for even one second.  But whatever.  If I could vote for Kerry, I can vote for Hillary.  In spite of their AUMF votes, neither of them would ever do what the chimp did.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:26:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At least Kerry had the sense (none / 0)

I voted for Kerry because I didn't get the chance to vote for someone who made the right call on the war. I would have rather voted for Dean or Clark... but now you have the oppourtunity to support someone who made the right call, before this thing even started. Who spoke out against it, when it was difficult to do so. That's guts, character and leadership. I'm excited to vote for Barack Obama for president.


by Tatan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:30:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At least Kerry had the sense (2.00 / 1)

I can agree with the first part of your comment.  I worked my ass off trying to get Clark some momentum.  Also I really liked Dean.

Here's where I disagree with you - "but now you have the oppourtunity to support someone who made the right call" - getting chimpy out was job number one, and the Iraq invasion was the thing that could almost get it done.  In 2008, things are quite different.  Iraq is a mess, but it's not my most important issue.  Why?  Because the whole country knows by now that it was a mistake.  Therefore I'm not excited by Obama.  One policy stance is far from enough for me.  While I liked that Dean and Clark knew that invading Iraq would wreak havoc, that alone wasn't enough for me even then.  They had excellent stances on all sorts of other issues.  Both had spent many years running large concerns - a military base, the state of Vermont.  Both had excellent experience in an executive capacity.

Until the day of the caucus, I wasn't entirely sure which way I'd go.  I didn't love any of them that much this time around, but in the end, I had to give Hillary credit for all she has done over the years.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well goodluck to you. (none / 0)

I hope if you find your candidate doesn't make it through the primary, that our nominee can count on your enthusiastic support... just as I'm sure you supported Kerry.


by Tatan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well goodluck to you. (2.00 / 1)

My support for Kerry was pretty tepid.  I tried, I really did, but I knew he would lose.  In the end all I did was vote for him.

There is a big problem this year.  It's called sexism.  I am extremely appalled at the sexism that has resurfaced.  No such thing happened in the Kerry campaign.

Obama will never get my enthusiastic support.  Whether he will ever get my vote remains to be seen.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well goodluck to you. (none / 0)

If you believe Senator Obama is responsible for the elements of sexism that have arisen during this campaign cycle... then there probably isn't much I can say to change your mind. I hope that after things cool down you take a moment to re-evaluate him as a candidate, and the choice that you face in the general... and then consider who would do more for women's right. The guy with a 100% rating from NARAL, or the pro-lifer that calls his wife a 'c--t'.


by Tatan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well goodluck to you. (none / 0)

Yes, I do believe Obama has vaguely sexist tendencies.  But I also acknowledge that all human beings have failings, along the lines of his grandmother making some cringe-worthy comments about race.

I've already evaluated him as a candidate and found him strongly lacking.  That said, Dukakis wasn't ready to be president, either, but I voted for him.

As for women's rights, the people who can do more don't run for the presidency.  The only person in this race who can make a difference is Hillary, and that is because she is female and would serve as a role model to girls who have been told that anyone can be president.  They might finally believe it.  Same for black children if Obama were there.  We need a law supporting abortion rights, and that will come from the Congress.  Otherwise we are held hostage to conservatives on the Supreme Court until the twelfth of never.  NARAL isn't my bellwether; I believe they endorsed Lincoln Chafee and Joe Lieberman.  Now, Linc and Lie-berman are pretty good Rethugs, but I wanted Lamont and Whitehouse.

Women's rights are a lot more than abortion rights (and I know you were merely using that as an example).  At this point in my life, I have some limits and will no longer necessarily vote for someone who has pissed me off big-time.  Obama himself blew past those a long while back.

I understand what you are saying because I have spent many hours trying to convince friends of mine to vote for Gore over Nader, or Kerry over whoever the Green Party candidate was that year.  I may no longer be able to do a Dukakis.  Kerry lost it for us in 2004 because of his hubris in thinking he had to be the nominee.  Obama is pulling a Kerry in 2008.  I'm tired of Rethug presidents, but you know, I haven't been able to stop it in decades and I can't now.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Help me out then. (none / 0)

I'd like to see you provide some examples of vaguely sexist tendencies Obama has. I don't see them, but obviously you have so I'd appreciate your insight.

Also, you want protections for abortion right, but suggest you might not be able vote for the candidate that will provide that protection. I'm a little dumbstruck by this logic, so please help me out.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out then. (none / 0)

I want all rights for all people.  I don't single out abortion rights necessarily.  Chafee supports abortion rights but I would have voted for Whitehouse had I been a citizen of Rhode Island at the time. I hope that wasn't too dumb-founding for you.  Congress and statehouses are more important in the abortion-rights battle, anyway.

There's not much point in me trying to point out examples of Obama's actions.  His supporters will not see it the way I do and there will be blood (so to speak).  Your tone is a tad insincere, unlike the person with whom I was conversing.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:18:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out then. (none / 0)

Well, you brought up abortion rights, so I was just following up. Actually, if the Supreme court bans abortion, states won't have any say, so I'd say that the fed plays a pretty hefty role.

I think you won't provide examples of Obama's alleged sexism, because there aren't any. Prove me wrong.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That is correct. I brought up the topic. (none / 0)

So it's reasonable that you used it as an example.

Here's where you are incorrect:  The Supreme Court cannot ban abortion.  That would be the equivalent of legislating, and the court doesn't have the right to legislate.  The court can uphold or strike down laws, and it can use its interpretation of the constitution in so doing.

The Congress can make laws about abortion that are federal.  The states can make laws that are statewide, but also, states are massively important in case of any attempt to make a constitutional ban on abortion.  This is why it's important for Democrats to hold statehouses.

I won't provide examples of Obama's sexism because a bunch of you are just waiting to pounce (see below) and I'm not in the mood for it.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:49:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is correct. I brought up the topic. (none / 0)

My point is that overturning Roe v. Wade with McCain appointed judges would be equivalent to a ban. With McCain in the WH, you can be sure that the blue dogs would roll over and give the GOP whatever legislation they want.

As seen in the case of the arcane federal drug laws, the fed and the courts have decided that federal law trumps that of the states, so so a federal ban on abortions would be the law of the land.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is correct. I brought up the topic. (none / 0)

There will not be a federal ban anytime soon.  Some blue dogs will roll over for McCain, I agree.  In fact, many of them will roll over in November and that's going to help put McCain in the WH.  I don't see that it can be stopped at this point.  It would be hard for Hillary to beat McCain, and, I fear, impossible for Obama to do it.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:09:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, you're right about no federal ban (none / 0)

anytime soon. Whether Hillary had won, or as it stands with Obama as the nominee, McCain has the albatross of Bush hanging nicely around his neck. New voters, pissed off conservatives and indies along with the reenergized Democratic base will carry us to the White House pretty easily this year.

But that you would vote against what you hold dear based on your personal dislike of the candidate is pretty sad.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out then. (none / 0)

Actually, when you accuse Obama of being sexist I think we all have a right to see some concrete examples.


by JimmyJames01 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out then. (none / 0)

Chirp.  Chirp. Chirp.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry (none / 0)

You don't have the "right" to anything specific from me.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're right about that (none / 0)

But then don't expect to have any credibility with us.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're right about that (none / 0)

Don't worry, I wasn't expecting or wanting any.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're right about that (none / 0)

Then why are you here?


Unable to rec or rate Still supporting Obama
by astoria gooner on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um... (none / 0)

Am I allowed to engage in politicial discussion on this site without having to seek the approval of Obama supporters or having to convince them of my credibility on their terms?


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Unfortunately, (none / 0)

that isn't how a dialogue works.


Unable to rec or rate Still supporting Obama
by astoria gooner on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:40:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um... (none / 0)

Again I ask, if you are not looking for any common ground (in your words "on their terms") why are you here? Honest question.

It seems as if you are less interested in "politcal discussion" and more interested in political disagreement.


Unable to rec or rate Still supporting Obama
by astoria gooner on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um... (none / 0)

I'm finding PLENTY of common ground with Hillary supporters.  Isn't this a Hillary diary anyway?


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's an anti-Obama diary (none / 0)

Those are different. Pro-Hillary diaries generally show up on progressive sites. Anti-Obama diaries generally show up at wingnut sites like RedState, Captain's Quarters, Ace of Spades, etc., though they've become quite popular at dead-ender haunts like No Quarter, Hillary is 44 and MyDD.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If MyDD is a dead-enter haunt (none / 0)

what are you doing here?  Big Orange calls!


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If MyDD is a dead-enter haunt (none / 0)

I just keep each open in a window, with a third currently open to DemConWatch to see the drip, drip in real time.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"I presume you voted for Kerry in 2004?" (none / 0)

Unfortunately, Obama wasn't a ballot option at the time.


by odum on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I presume you voted for Kerry i (none / 0)

What's that got to do with it?  Barbara Boxer wasn't an option, either.  I'd love to have voted for her as president in 2004.  Heck, I'd have loved voting for Gore for a second time.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:50:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Do you ever address the subject at hand?  Oops, silly question.  Seems impossible for you.


by Tolstoy on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Guess what? Each diary raises lots of different issues and posters have the right to pursue those.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Maybe he responded in one of the multipe other diaries referencing the silly yellow journalist Jack Tapper.  Maybe it doesn't count until alegre address it and her willfully ignorant following jump on it.  But what he said did address the last line of alegre's diary.  Guess you missed that.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.00 / 1)

With all respect, Hillary didn't have some sort of investment deal with Nadmhi Auchi and Tony Rezko involving Iraq that was threatened by the war.  

Opposing the war was simple economic opportunism for Barack Obama.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Lies About Clinton's AUMF vote (none / 0)

Why should Clinton apologize for casting a vote in support of the IAEA and the UNITED NATIONS.

The vote was not a "vote for war," as you say. There is a very big distinction here, and you are seeking to conflate the vote at the time it occurred and Bush's violation of the vote at the time he invaded Iraq.

In this post, I'm going to talk about some actual history of what happened at the time, behind the scenes, as recounted by Hans Blix - who was the Director General of the IAEA from 1981 to 1997 and the Executive Director of UNMOVIC from 2000 to 2003 in charge of the Iraq inspections team.

Blix published a book "Disarming Iraq" in which he objectively recounted the events leading up to the invasion of Iraq as a high-level, third party, UN official who was closely involved both with US officials and Iraqi officials at the time. As you read the book you will notice that Blix tried his best to make the inspections work and he was not a supporter of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. However, he repeatedly states in his book how important it was to establish a credible and unified threat of military force against Iraq to get Saddam to not just let inspectors back in but also agree to the stringent terms of the UN inspections regime without playing "cat-and-mouse" games with the inspectors and the UN.

Indeed, Blix calls out how he specifically asked Colin Powell, in early Oct 2002, for help in getting a credible threat of force included in any resolution to make sure that Iraq would really comply with the UN inspections regime and not play games with the UN as they had historically done.

I'm going to reproduce a few extracts from his book showing some of the chronology and I will follow that up with comments from other bloggers (from back in 2004) - to make it clear that it was a very legitimate argument that Democrats who voted for the resolution might have partly done so in order to make sure that the inspections regime against Iraq worked - the kind of inspections that Sen. Obama said he was very much for in his Oct 2002 speech.

Put another way, without a credible and unified threat of force, Blix's view was that it was rather unlikely that Iraq would have really agreed to an unimpeded inspections process, even though his view was that the threat of force should not have carried over into an invasion in March 2003. This view is not significantly different from that of Sen. Kerry or Sen. Clinton.

The facts are clear. Sen. Clinton and Sen. Kerry BOTH voted for the AUMF because they were under pressure to support a credible inspection of Iraqi weapons systems and Hans Blix was seeking an AUMF with a threat of force included in it. Bush violated the AUMF by pulling OUT the inspection teams and launching the invasion.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/0 11884.php

Barack Obama made a speech against Iraq and gave himself cover in that same speech by saying he didn't oppose ALL wars, just SOME wars. How convenient for him. But, then, that is his pattern--he never takes a position; never plays his hand; always bluffing. Guess he learned that skill playing poker all those years up in Illinois with his lobbyist friends!

The alleged speech Obama made--to an anti-war rally in a blue state--wasn't reported in any news media at the time, and it wasn't recorded on any video. He has re-created it on video! Oh, well, Clinton might have "re-created" her vote, but she chose to take responsibility for it--like any responsible adult does.

Obama didn't even take responsibility for sitting in Wright's church for 20 years--when he was finally forced to denounce Wright, he said "that's not the man I knew for 20 years," and "I didn't know him as well as I thought I knew him," or some such nonsense.

This is a man who blames EVERYONE else for his own actions, who doesn't take a stand on anything, and who offers platitudes and nothing else. He's a political opportunist with no values, no dedication to an ideal, and no substantive record of accomplishment, save what he has accomplished in his own interests, like making a secret deal with a criminal to purchase a mansion he couldn't afford.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:00:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Lies About Clinton's AUMF vote (2.00 / 1)

Ha! This is hilarious.


Unable to rec or rate Still supporting Obama
by astoria gooner on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 4)

...have Obama's papers from his time in the IL senate?  I mean, he won't release them to the voters...but are they still available somehow/somewhere so they can get their hands on them?

I smell big trouble from the empty suit on the horizon!


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 1)

Do we really have to go through the IL papers issue again????  As I'm sure you remember from the upteen times this has been discussed, state legislative papers are not preserved under any mandate.  It's expensive to store and catalogue papers after all.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IF BO had anything good in those papers... (2.00 / 3)

he would have preserved them...after all, he's been running for POTUS for years now!

The fact that they are missing is certainly more than circumstantial evidence of bad things in those papers!


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IF BO had anything good in those papers... (2.00 / 1)

Say again?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dooh, what part of "dissappeared... (2.00 / 3)

records" don't you get.

If BO has anything good in those documents, he would never had let them go.  


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dooh, what part of "dissappeared... (none / 0)

State legislators almost never keep their papers. Certainly not in my state.  We've discussed this SO many times.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What part of... (2.00 / 3)

"If BO has anything good in those documents, he would never had let them go." don't you understand?  


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What part of... (2.00 / 1)

Exactly. State legislators keep their records in my state.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What part of... (none / 0)

What state do you live in? I'd like to check into your statement of fact, since I'm not aware of any state where there's an extant requirement for legislators to archive the papers of the day-to-day workings of their office. There's a long record of Obama's public work in the lege that is available by search and/or request, if you're really interested, and the Illinois media has a pretty extensive record of his work as well.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:14:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What part of... (2.00 / 1)

I'm not aware of ANY legislator who doesn't routinely keep copies of correspondence. Most view their job as a business.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dooh, what part of "dissappeared... (none / 0)

Besides, you can find out what bills he introduced and worked on by public records, which are kept by every legislature.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not good enough...his name was put (2.00 / 2)

on every bill - that doesn't mean he supported it, or MORE IMPORTANTLY, championed it!


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:53:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not good enough...his name was put (none / 0)

Untrue on all counts.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not good enough...his name was put (2.00 / 1)

Just wait 'til the letters he wrote start popping up. He may not have kept copies, but you can be damn sure the other parties did on issues that mattered.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:45:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not good enough...his name was put (none / 0)

I smell a "gravy-gate" coming


by catalysis on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IF BO had anything good in those papers... (2.00 / 1)

It's amazing the pretzel logic these Obama-haters get themselves into to try to criticize him.

First it's that somewhere, out there, are some papers... that the Republican might get to make him look bad.

Then, they haven't been brought out, so they must have been destroyer. Ergo the Repubs can't have them. Alas there goes the first point.

Oh, but WAIT.

He must have destroyed them cause there was something bad in them... ah ha the lack of evidence is proof of something sinister afoot.

Their spidey-senses are all-a-tingle.

I remember when it was only Ken Star and his kin that used to work themselves up like this.


by Tatan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IF BO had anything good in those papers... (1.66 / 3)

Well, it appears from his track record, should any papers be found he'd claim he'd never seen them and that staffers had signed his name.


by Tolstoy on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IF BO had anything good in those papers... (2.00 / 3)

You might be on to something there!


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: IF BO had anything good in those papers... (2.00 / 3)

Hahahahahaha.  We are talking about "disappearing papers" now?  That is a Clinton specialty!  I guess nobody remembers Travelgate?  Whitewater?  Clinton mysteriously losing track of all the files investigators wanted to see?

Say what you want about Obama, but there is no f***ing way anything he has done compares with the skeletons in Clinton's closet.  You are acting like the years and years of bullshit lying and covering-up the Clintons did will simply fade away.  Wake up!  You haven't heard about it yet because Obama didn't even need to use it to beat her!  She didn't even need her worst laundry aired to show her true colors as a liar.

The GOP is chomping at the goddamn bit to run against Hillary.  Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been paying attention very well.  Fox News lovefest, friendly appearances on O'Reilly Factor, Rush Limbaugh's sudden Hillary love.  Read between the lines r-tards.  They want Hillary in the GE.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 2)

How can we go through them if they are out there somewhere just ripe for the pickins, and we don't have them.  He he he


by Scotch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 3)

I have always found it funny that if you were planning for a big future, had little experience to help you to it, but at least had a record of some experience, you would want to hang on to it .  That's if they were all in order.  If not then they should implanted in cement and dropped in the ocean.  Or maybe he didn't even keep records, just showed up and voted present, went back to his office and played darts.  It's a real mystery.  Obama claims he doesn't know where they are.  Maybe he is waking up in cold sweats at night trying to remember what he did with them.  


by Scotch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 2)

Maybe they're with Bills library donor list? Or with the detailed list of which dignitaries hillary served tea to.


by venician on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:38:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 2)

A doubt a certain former First Lady will want to talk about people misplacing important papers.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Been there...she's answered that... (2.00 / 2)

and so has any investigation.


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Been there...she's answered that... (2.00 / 2)

How did those papers -- which had been subpoenaed two years earlier -- manage to just "show up" in the White House? Is the place haunted?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, please. (2.00 / 3)

Such a stupid comment and "issue".

How much more of our money do you want to spend on bogus crap?


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, please. (2.00 / 2)

When folks raise questions about one person's papers, doesn't it call up the issue for another person, especially when the latter person was under legal compulsion to produce them as evidence?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:15:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton's papers have been searched and (none / 0)

examined and no there was found there.

Obama is fresh meat - he's the one who wants to be POTUS and, mysteriously, can't find his papers/background on experience.  

Apples and oranges.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly! (2.00 / 2)


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Alegre...do you think the Repugs will... (2.00 / 2)

Well he could always be like Hillary, and make experience up, and then pretend it applies to the job at hand.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

You know, I think your signature line takes on a whole new meaning nowadays.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

She can't even stick to a campaign theme.

How many has she gone through now?


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry to see (2.00 / 2)

that you're a bitter dead-ender, alegre.

If you wonder why Obama supporters are in no mood to consider a joint ticket, or helping out with your candidate's irresponsible campaign spending, or to just show a degree of comity as Clinton slips into her role as an also-ran, you need simply to review the slime that you continue to produce.

At the point we've reached, you're no longer aiding Clinton, but tearing down a Democrat out of spite and anger. I would pity you, but you're becoming beneath pity.


by bookish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry to see (2.00 / 2)

It is unfortunate that bitter, venomous, angry people like alegre get so much exposure. I admit that I look for these diaries out of morbid curiosity, but they are sad commentaries on what spite and hate can do to a person.

There has to be a winner and a loser in any competition. I think the mature approach is to uphold the Sportsmanship maxim rather than let our primary process devolve into a Tyson-Holyfield spectacle.

I sincerely hope that everyone remembers that there are 140,000 men and women in Iraq that are waiting for us to bring them home. McBush won't, so it is up to us, all of us, to do it or risk being accomplices to W's murderous foreign policy.


by liquidbread11 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

So let me get this straight...You post a diary suggesting Obama has a problem based upon the staff he chooses and the way they ran their campaign - implying that Senator Clinton has done better choosing people and running the campaign.  

And you do this with a straight face?


by oliver cromwell on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:36:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.00 / 1)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/05/obamas-inabilit.html

ABC's Tapper doesn't by it.  He states Obama's campaign staff is exceptional.  He asks how does Obama throw this exceptional staff under the bus?


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Do any of you realize that the Illinois congress only convenes for 55 days a year and that he's been present in the Senate for only 143 days? Something to seriously consider don't you think?


by suzieg on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:32:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, we have one now! (none / 0)

If there's ever a guy who can make a decision and stand by it it's George W. Bush.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

So when Hillary picked a group of loyalist cronies to run her campaign, that's the kind of decision you are looking for?  When Clinton got caught red handed making up stories about Bosnia, and made up some ridiculous story about "sleep deprivation," that's standing by your decision?

Please, Hillary has waffled on everything from NAFTA to what metrics she feels are fair to decide this race.  Give it up alegre.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary'sa Campaign has been a race to the gutter (2.00 / 1)

The Woman has NO CLASS!


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

You know, you're right.

Hillary Clinton hired the union-busting, mercenary-supporting Mark Penn, a person whose client list should disqualify him from receiving the money and support of any Democrat, and continues to keep him on (despite a head-fake on firing him) long after it's clear he's killing her campaign and taking your hard-earned money to do it.  As an Obama supporter, I'm very glad she's stood by that decision, but I bet you Clinton supporters are wishing she'd flip-flopped on it.

Hillary Clinton has continually stood against the tough, sweeping ethics and open government reforms we need in this country, from the very earliest days of her husband's administration during which she sank healthcare by making policy in secret to 2006 when she stood against sweeping reforms as they came up in amendments to the Senate ethics bill.  Her tenacity in insisting that corporate lobbyists and corporate PACs have an overwhelming say in our legislative process - which might have just a little something to do with the fact that they're a major funding source for her campaign - is admirable, in a twisted sort of way.  People who support good government, legislative ethics, and progressive reforms wish she would flip-flop on this and support open, transparent, and ethical government, but the corporate lobbying interests who are underwriting her campaign are glad she's stood by her decision.

Hillary Clinton voted to start the immoral, irresponsible, inadvisable Iraq War without reading the intelligence, when many people of conscience, including Barack Obama, were standing against it.  She's since stood by that decision despite the fact that she suddenly found out when she started running for president that she's opposed to the war and always has been.  Many Americans - including me - would have liked to see some real leadership out of her back in 2003 by seeing her stand up and say "this war is wrong."  Instead, she chose to support it - a decision that makes it clear she either has (a) piss-poor judgment in choosing to trust a president known by then to be completely untrustworthy, or (b) a penchant for choosing the politically-expedient path over the path she knows to be the right thing to do.  Neither possibility is something I want in the person with their finger on the button.

We do need a president who stands by their decisions.  But what we need more is a president who makes the right decisions in the first place, based on honest conscience and intelligent foresight rather than political expediency.  It's more than clear to me that Hillary Clinton is not that person.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:19:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

All candidates make mistakes.  Certainly both Obama and Clinton have.  So?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:20:40 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Do we need to compare campaigns?

This is going to be easy!


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:21:16 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 2)

Erm... you'd be comparing apples & oranges then because this is about whether BO can take responsiblity for his actions - or whether he passes the buck.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

So has hillary taken responsibility for her disastrous campaign? Has hillary taken responsibility for the huge debt she has racked up?
Has hillary taken responsibility for her her race baiting tactics during this primary season?
by venician on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:28:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

woah for the simual post


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

C O L !  You're kidding - right?


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.50 / 2)

There have been no race baiting tatics.  Calling the Clintons racists is beyond the pale.  Compared to all the good they've done for the AA community, Obama hasn't done squat.  

This is the most disgraceful meme of the Obama worshippers on the blogs.  Absolutely disgusing.


by Tolstoy on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Of course they're not racists. Certainly Obama has never said they are.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Clinton's are not racists, but (none / 0)

they have exploited racial tensions and certainly exploited gender in this race. You may be willing to shrug off the multiple instances of race being injected into this race as mere stupidity, but I don't think the Clintons are stupid. I think they have a really good idea of what line they can step up to and which ones not to cross.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

uh... wha? (none / 0)

Including the term "Obama worshippers" in a comment like this means you're effectively calling people out for labeling Clinton campaign tactics as race baiting while simultaneously being an ass.

Secondly, no one said they were racists. Using a race-baiting tactics and being a racist are entirely two different things. The Jesse Jackson SC comment was race-baiting. Hillary talking about how she'll win the "white vote" is race-baiting. Some of her high-profile supporters have been on the same message, like Ed Rendell.

The arguments all boil down to, "Obama is black and will win black votes, but can't win enough white votes to win", and indicators are that Hillary actually believe that's true.

(She might be interested in this poll)


by mattw on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Really, has Hillary taken any responsibility for her disastrous campaign?

Before you start preaching to others, make sure your house is in order first.


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

lf her campaign is such a disaster, how come she's within spitting distance of Obama?  Guess that makes him close to a disaster as well.

But leaving that aside, people in public office can run their campaigns however they like and I'm not terribly concerned.  Where I want to see responsibility taken is when the person is supposed to be doing their job.  State senators are paid to do a job.  They are not paid to campaign.  So, yes, in his job, Obama needs to take responsibility.  Clinton already has shown she takes responsibility as a U.S. Senator.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Really? She has? Show me an example of her taking responsibility for, say, the Iraq war. Oh, I forgot, she was terribly opposed to it, thus explaining why she voted for it, and in favor of more negotiation, explaining why she voted against amendments calling for just that and not offering any of her own. And of course it explains why she took great responsibility for her vote by actually doing some research, reading the source documents... oh... wait.

Show me some examples of her taking responsibility for the mismanagement of her campaign, squandering an enormous lead and an amazing amount of political capital. Show me an apology to all those donors for wasting their money in so many amazing ways.

Show me her taking responsibility for Mark Penn's totally repugnant role in this campaign. Oh, wait, she demoted him... to doing exactly the same job with a different title. That's a great amount of responsibility taken there.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

it took her the texas debate to finally admit her vote was a mistake.

yup she really does take responsibility


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:23:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

heh heh, I don't need to spell out the problems with her campaign, but don't tell us how bad Obama is or his campaign when he is leading in all counts of the primary election. It would be nice for once if Hillary supporters just acknowledge he out hustled your candidate and is winning on all mathematical counts.  Just stop trying to tear our candidate and do something productive and help your candidate to win.  If you haven't noticed she needs all the help she can get.  This is America and last time I checked anyone can run for President, if you don't like it you can move somewhere else that prohibits citizens from doing that.  With that said:

Photobucket


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

I have to admit that Mr. Obama is a handsome looking man, but why are people posting so many pictures of him in such lame star-like fashions?  Oh, I forgot this is once again a popularity contest.  


by observer11 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

I post them because campaigns get way too serious and life is short and to ease the tension a bit.


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Fair enough.


by observer11 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

"Oh, I forgot this is once again a once again a popularity contest. "

Yes, 'popularity contest' is indeed another word for DEMOCRACY. A contest between the popularities of people and of ideas.


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:57:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Hillary has legitimized this as a popularity contest by arguing that florida & michigan should be seated as is.


by soros on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:26:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Not to mention that this thing is now supposedly best decided by the "popular" vote.  Oh, and she argues that Obama has a problem with low-info voters who are exactly the kind that tend to make their decision based on "popularity contest" types of values.


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 2)

You hit on a big problem I have with Obama.  He really does not like to take responsibility.  Instead of talking about his own feelings toward people based on skin color, he says something negative about his own grandmother, who is still alive and possibly very embarrassed to be talked about like that in front of the nation.  Instead of taking responsibility for the fact that he spent quality time with Wright for decades by saying he shares Wright's beliefs or, conversely, that he joined the church for political reasons, he denounces Wright in very unpleasant terms.  Unlike Obama's grandmother, Wright decides to push back.  Some MSM bemoan Wright's comments, but the guy has a right to push back.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Actually, he's said multiple times that he's made mistakes and he will probably make mistakes in the future.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

I want specifics.  Yes, yes, he says things like "I am an imperfect vessel" and "I have made mistakes."  Damn right he is imperfect and damn right he's made mistakes.  But what I want to hear is what the mistakes are.  A person who won't give specifics (other than to say he keeps a messy desk) about his own faults but will give specifics about the faults of others is a person I don't trust.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

No offense, but who cares who you trust. Clintonites are now irrelevant. Make way for President Obama.


by venician on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:03:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Are you trying to lose on purpose?  Keep that attitude up and spread it wide and you will see McCain sworn in next January.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:05:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

So you say, but that doesn't make it true, does it?


by venician on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

And Hillary leading impeachment charges by February.


by zep93 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Ha!

Have you actually paid attention to her career in the Senate?  It gives the word "limp" a bad name.


by Jordache on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

You trust Hillary Clinton, so your judgement is worthless.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Show me evidence... (none / 0)

that Clinton is perfect.

I'll take the candidate that exhibits a little humility every now and then.


by jaywillie on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 2)

Not the qualities we need in our next leader.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Wow, the Wright issue again. It worked so well for hillary didn't it, it put her right over the top and lead her to victory. LOL


by venician on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Stop the drama, you are being foolish.

We are Democrats.  We are, on the whole, tolerant and forgiving, which cannot be said for the bulk of Rethug voters.  In fact, Rethugs brought up Wright, it wasn't Hillary.  Get ready for Wright's greatest hits playing on a 24/7 film loop this fall.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

So you finally admit he will be the nominee!!!

WELCOME ABOARD!


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:06:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A bit presumptuous? (none / 0)

How do you know how his grandmother felt about it?


by jaywillie on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:29:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

Obama takes responsibility for his actions.  When he failed to provide proper oversight, he admits it and apologizes for it.

Your candidate however never apologizes for decisions, lies, or actions unless they may possibly have offended someone.

On the Bosnia sniper story:
She apparently misspoke, there was never an apology.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/ 2008/04/bill-clinton-re.html

On Mark Penn's lobbying for the Colombian free trade agreement:
Mark Penn apologized, but apparently Hillary Clinton didn't need to.  She just had to fire him, oh I'm sorry demote him in the campaign.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23985294/

On Bill Clinton being paid $800,000 to advocate for the Colombian free trade deal:
She apparently disagrees with him, but they don't need to return that money at all.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?sectio n=news/politics&id=6069245

On Bill Clinton's Jesse Jackson comment:
She apologized: "You know I am sorry if anyone was offended."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washingt on/2008/03/hillary-clint-7.html

And my favorite, her Iraq war vote which she cast "with conviction":
She never takes responsibility for her vote on Iraq.  She passes the buck, to use your phrase, to the President, but takes no responsibility for her complete lack of judgment.
http://www.slate.com/id/2160238/

We can all spend time writing hit diaries on candidates who are running against our candidate in the Democratic primary.  You're the only one who seems to do it with such vitriol.  What will you do in September 2008 after the convention?  I hope you're not still trying to take down Democratic candidates for petty errors like form letters or meetings with foreign governments that were misrepresented by the opposing campaign.  (Here's a new source for you on Austan Goolsbee: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/04/14 /clinton-nafta.html)


by The Distillery on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is a lurker! (1.80 / 5)

Obama is a Political Lurker...always in the picture, but never out front, never leading the charge.  Even his "famous" speech resulted in not a single attempt by BO to end the war once he got into the Senate.  But then, he was so busy on day one running for his next promotion he forgot that little issue, didn't he?

I remember reading about him running into committee members on their way to a press conference about something they had just accomplished.  He said, "What's up" and they told him and he said, "Can I come along"?  They said sure - they wanted people on the podium for pictures and then he had the audacity (whoops!) to take the mic and speak as if he had been personally involved in the accomplishment.  Staffers were pissed as hell at what he did.

He lurked in CT in 2006 (never really coming out and supporting Ned Lamont).  He lurks on pro-choice (using weasel words and voting present).  He lurks on race (demanding a dialog and now saying we should all move on - pun intended!).  Condemning the Gas Tax Holiday proposal when he supported other such proposals three times.  

Where in the world does he really stand on things?  I don't know.  And I'm not willing to take a chance.

If we elect a lurker then Repugs will rule the day anyway because he lurks right as much as he lurks left.

NOT what we must have for this country if we are expected to move forward.

Plus, he has destroyed any improvements we have made in race relations since 1960.  

He should be ashamed of himself.


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:21:35 PM EST

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 4)

Why the present votes on abortion?

"We worked on the 'present' vote strategy with Obama," said Pam Sutherland, chief lobbyist for the Illinois branch of Planned Parenthood, an abortion rights group. "He was willing to vote 'no', and was always going to be a 'no' vote for us."

Sutherland said Planned Parenthood calculated that a 'present' vote by Obama would encourage other senators to cast a similar vote, rather than voting for the legislation. "They were worried about direct mail pieces against them. The more senators voted present, the harder it was to mount an issues campaign against the senator."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-chec ker/2008/02/obamas_voting_record_on_abor ti_1.html


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:25:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 1)

According to the National Organization for Women from his home state of Illinois:

To be clear, voting "present" on those bills was a strategy that IL NOW did not support. At that time, we made it clear to the legislators that we disagreed with the strategy. We wanted legislators to take a stand against the harmful anti-choice bills being brought to the floor of the Illinois State Senate.

Voting "present" does not demonstrate leadership and does not send the clarion signal that one is unwavering in their support of a woman's right to choose. IL NOW knew that those bills were unacceptable to women. Senator Obama....has not taken leadership on the issue at the same level that Hillary has.

Ms. Brett asserts that the strategy to vote "present" was devised to give political cover to legislators in conservative districts. State Senator Barack Obama did not represent a conservative district and he could have voted "no" with little negative consequence in his district.

illinoisnow.org


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:20:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 1)

To fill in your ellipses, as I'm sure that you had no intention of misleading anyone with them:

Senator Obama's record on choice has been excellent, but he has not taken leadership on the issue at the same level that Hillary has.


by Pat Flatley on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:25:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (none / 0)

Yes, thanks for reminding me about this, too:

During Senator Obama's 2004 senate campaign, the Illinois NOW PAC did not recommend the endorsement of Obama for U.S. Senate because he refused to stand up for a woman's right to choose and repeatedly voted `present' on important legislation.

As a State Senator, Barack Obama voted `present' on seven abortion bills, including a ban on 'partial birth abortion,' two parental notification laws and three 'born alive' bills.  In each case, the right vote was clear, but Senator Obama chose political cover over standing and fighting for his convictions.

"When we needed someone to take a stand, Senator Obama took a pass," said Grabenhofer. "He wasn't there for us then and we don't expect him to be now."

illinoisnow.org


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 1)

Photobucket

and I approve this message!


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 2)

Great points CC.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, Alegre! (2.00 / 1)

I take that as an wonderful compliment coming from you!


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks, Alegre! (2.00 / 2)

This is so sweet.  Can I take a picture?


by futbol dad on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:51:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 1)


by Cheebs on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is one (2.00 / 2)

of the most deft synopses of Obama I have ever read. Wow. Thank you.
by linc on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That is one (none / 0)

When I first read this, there was a little spot on my laptop screen, and it looked like you'd written 'daft'. For a moment, I thought we had a moment of true honestly... sadly no.

For my part, I'd definitely consider it one of the most daft synopses of Obama I've ever read.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is a lurker! (2.00 / 1)

Here you go:

The Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007.

Introduced by Obama.

Called for a phased troop withdrawal, and a total troop re-deployment (out of Iraq) by March 31, 2008.

So I cry total B.S. on your claim that there was "not a single attempt" by Obama to end the war. In fact, he introduced a bill to do exactly that. Where's the comparable piece of legislation introduced by Hillary Clinton?


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And that bill's status? (none / 0)


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:33:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And that bill's status? (none / 0)

Didn't pass. The Senate voted a non-binding resolution instead calling for exactly the same thing.

Your comment, however, was that Obama had made not a single attempt to end the war. That's simply and blatantly false.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:42:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did he sponsor it and push for it... (none / 0)

or just put it out there and let it flounder as with other "legislation" that he supposedly did?

You're right - he did do "something"...now I want to know how well he did it?


by CoyoteCreek on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did he sponsor it and push for it... (none / 0)

Why waste the effort? It would never change your mind...ever. So there is no point in trying to persuade someone who will either directly, or tacitly, support a Republican in November.


by zep93 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did he sponsor it and push for it... (none / 0)

Please describe sponsoring and pushing for?

Then apply those same standards to HRC.


Unable to rec or rate Still supporting Obama
by astoria gooner on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another useless hit diary (1.33 / 9)

from your friendly (or not so friendly) paid Hillbot, Alegre.


by bigdcdem on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:23:40 PM EST

Alegre is VERY friendly. (2.00 / 1)

And is not a paid anything relative to HRC's campaign.

Get your smears straight!


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (1.66 / 3)

Prove it.  Until you can do that knock it off.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (1.80 / 5)

Uhh, although I am keen to dismiss unmitigated accusations, I'd say this one isn't too far off the world of possibility, Alegre, especially considering the fact you didn't just outright deny it.

Combine that with the fact you parrot the Clinton party line to a tee, never adding anything original unless it's some politically-acceptable platitudes about your family; you apparently rate well enough to get in on campaign conference calls; your name was somewhat well publicized after your grandstanding exit from Kos; you can understand people's wondering on this point.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

oh rage - alegre has said that she will back the DEMOCRATIC nominee and that she believe its going to be HRC.  doesnt fit the mold.  sorry.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

shrug

Given her financial situation, and the incredibly limited reach a blog like MyDD has, I'd tend to agree with you, but those are concerns which Alegre won't allay, as you notice.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Asked and answered multiple times. You just refuse to listen.

BTW, isn't there a "ragekage" over at freeperville? And what's the name of your other sock puppet over on the Great Orange Satan?


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

I don't know, I think there is a "Ragekage" over at Free Republic, both Bobswern and... hmm, I can't remember his name now... anyway, had a showdown over this issue on which I embarassed them tremendously for trying to suggest I was anyone other that me. Heh. Easy thing to prove.

If you had any clue what the moniker meant, you might understand why there's more than a couple people using it. And unfortunately, it was already taken at Kos. But if you really cared who I was, it's not too hard to figure out.

It's okay, Knowvox. Remember? A pair of methodists campaigning for the nominee in the fall, you and me. You promised! :)


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Not a single thing you've said is true.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Oh, Knowvox, we've been over this before. Just because you say something doesn't automatically make it true.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:55:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Look in the mirror for once, jerk.


by zep93 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:42:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

Actually, I thought that was the Clinton party line -- that they support whoever the Democratic nominee will be, and believe it will he Hillary. Did I miss something -- is either of those not true?

And if not, how does your comment relate to anything said here?


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

I've never seen her acknowledge that sentiment, unfortunately.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:29:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

I have, and I'm willing to take her at her word on it.

And not even in the "she says she'll support the nominee and I believe her" sort of way. She says she'll be out there campaigning her heart out for whoever the nominee is, I believe her until she proves differently.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:43:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

If that's how she feels, then that's fine. But my issues with Alegre are still valid, I think. At least I'm addressing these concerns people are bringing up with my original post, or points in diaries I've written.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Ahem.

Apology?


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Sure. That's the first I've seen of that.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

Maybe she didn't outright deny it because she is sick. and. tired. of refuting it over and over and over.

You and others parrot the Obama party line.  Some Clinton supporters do the same with the Clinton line.  So what?  Donating a certain amount of volunteering and/or money can easily get a person on a campaign conference call; it's not unusual.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

I parrot the Obama party line? Really? Me? I mean, I know some people do, but suggesting I am among them is hilarious, if you've actually spent any time around me or cared to ask me about my political beliefs.

Besides, read my response to Canadian Gal.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:01:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

I've seen your moniker around here.  You are always anti-Clinton.  I'm guessing that makes you pro-Obama, but I don't hang out in Obama cheerleading diaries.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:14:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Uh huh. I'm always anti-Clinton, eh? You didn't even bother to do any research on that, at the very least looking through my diaries and such. Sad, really, because it's easy for me to expose you for your foolishness.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

lol - you are sooooo uninformed.  I listen to confernece calls when I get an e-mail from the campaign.  You can too.  Just call, say you're an independent blogger, give them your e-mail,   and ask to be put on the list.


by Tolstoy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

ol - you are sooooo uninformed. You decided to skip reading my entire comment and ignore the point I was trying to make! Tee hee!


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (1.60 / 5)

You know I've had just about enough of your BS RK.  I've state time and time again that I don't work for the campaign.  You don't need to be a ROCKET SCIENTIST to see that I post at night - AFTER I've worked all day and then put my kids to bed.

And you don't need to be a feckin' rocket scientist to get on an email list for any of the campaigns, hear what they're saying and check out their press releases and blog on their campaign websites.  Honestly - if you're paying attention to what's going on you can get your candidate's message out without a lot of effort.

As for my well-publicized exit from kos - it's called EMAILS to the big dawg bloggers once I posted my diary at dkos.

DOH!

Now do us all a massive favor - grow the hell up and go spam someone else's post.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 3)

You know I've had just about enough of your BS RK.  I've state time and time again that I don't work for the campaign.  You don't need to be a ROCKET SCIENTIST to see that I post at night - AFTER I've worked all day and then put my kids to bed.

Uh huh. This is the first I've heard you actually say you didn't work for the campaign, but as I've mentioned several times now, I find it highly unlikely, as Clinton can hardly afford free at this point. As for that, heck, look at how many times I post between 3pm and midnight EST Monday through Friday- I work, too, and I'm raising a baby girl all by myself. Why does that afford you any special status?

And you don't need to be a feckin' rocket scientist to get on an email list for any of the campaigns, hear what they're saying and check out their press releases and blog on their campaign websites.  Honestly - if you're paying attention to what's going on you can get your candidate's message out without a lot of effort.

True enough. But my damning of your diaries was more of the fact you never, ever stray from this narrative, unless it's to mention something else in a politically-positive platitude for Senator Clinton. I've never seen you blog about, say, Senator Clinton's pledge to campaign for Senator Obama. I've never seen you actually get into the discourse here and try to further the dialog between Clinton and Obama supporters, trying to allay concerns or bring Obama supporters into the fold- I've only ever seen you try to divide us.

As for your little comment below this on families, hell, Alegre, Clinton supporters have given me plenty of grief on my family- A poster at TaylorMarsh suggested my daughter deserved to be raped because I supported Obama. I've never seen you concerned about anything like that. I'm raising an infant daughter all by myself, because my ex is just a bastion of personal responsibility. I made $24,269 last year, got to spend something north of three grand of that on medical bills for the baby, and worked full-time and attended school full-time to try and get ahead in life. If you want to go on personal stories, bring it on.

It doesn't change the fact you've staked your entire personal reputation on the Clinton campaign, and some people wonder why, rightly or wrongly. And it doesn't address any of the concerns I've ever brought up about the points your diaries make. I've never yet seen you answer a hard question; instead, you love to engage in ad hominem attacks like this and count on the rest of the Clinton supporters to close ranks around you.

I expect this will be the same thing. And as to your final remark, well, I think perhaps you should take this message to Hillaryis44.org, as they're more inclined to listen to echo chambers. That's why I love MyDD over any other blog I'm involved with, or have seen. It may be a pro-Clinton site, but we at least have DIALOG here. We have DISCUSSIONS. You're not furthering that at all.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (none / 0)

Well said rage. I'd give you mojo but Obama suporters aren't allowed to on thsi site.


by venician on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:26:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (1.00 / 1)

As for your insulting crack re my family - screw you pal.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:05:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey 'rage' (none / 0)

Does your mommy know you are playing on the internets this late? Grow. the fuck. up.
by linc on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:10:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey 'rage' (none / 0)

Great way to make a point. Kudos.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:22:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another useless hit diary (2.00 / 1)

Youd don't have to pay zealots.
And if she was paid I would think she would be capable of doing a better job praising Clinton.
She does not do much more than promote the silliest attacks on Obama, and try to drum up gender bias for Clinton.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:42:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The proof is your idiotic and blind pro-Hillary (2.00 / 1)

obsession.


by bigdcdem on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 5)

Isn't it a little late in the day to be resorting to the Rezko smears?

Clinton's campaign was staffed by incompetent loyalists.  Using the campaign as a window into the candidate may not be the avenue you want to pursue.


by rfahey22 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:24:04 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.66 / 3)

Wow - you totally missed the point if you can claim I posted something that's about Rezko.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Wow, I got the point! Long day?


by futbol dad on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 2)

They don't read, Alegre.  They just lie in wait and look for a spot to insert an insult.


by Tolstoy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:02:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

And you completely ignore the premise of your diary, that a candidate is judged by the campaign s/he runs.


by rfahey22 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Already diaried


Matthew25Network.com
by cardboard 1 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:25:02 PM EST

The Campaign Is A Lie (none / 0)

(extra points for anyone who makes the Chel versus GLADoS comparison here)


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:25:19 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

Even though Hillary literally cannot win the primary at this point (save a catastrophic event or revelation, obviously), I think it's totally fine to cheerlead in vain as many of these diaries often do.  Hillary has earned the right to campaign until June 3rd, particularly considering that she's going to win three of the remaining primaries.  What's not cool, however, is trolling out hit pieces on the presumptive nominee of our party.  This will accomplish nothing at all.  I understand the frustration and anger, but Barack Obama is the nominee of the Democratic party in 2008.  You're going to have to learn how to deal with that reality.


by Pat Flatley on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:35:50 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.50 / 2)

You're not helping.  If you tell people they must "learn how to deal with that reality," chances are that YOU will have to learn to deal with another reality - Democrats who won't support your guy in November.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

Look, I genuinely don't care if someone is so petulant as to not vote for a candidate because of his or her supporters.  If you want to vote to continue the war in Iraq and lose Roe v. Wade, that's your decision.  If you want to abstain from voting, that's your decision.  Heck, if you want to write-in Hillary Clinton, that's your decision.  The reality is that Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee in November.  If Democrats don't support "my" guy, then they aren't Democrats, and that's their prerogative.


by Pat Flatley on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:04:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I raise you a : (2.00 / 1)

 HRC will suffer an even greater backlash of voters staying at home if it is perceived she stole the nomination.  
That being said, I hope it is not true, just like your statement, though I would say mine is closer to the truth by logic: steal the nomination = no votes for u   vs.   win the nomination fairly = only zealots of other candidate will stay at home.  insert any candidate in this equation and it should work out the same.
Me, I'll still vote for HRC if she gets teh nomination, I was thinking of writing in Obama, but nah, No way cause I'll know I helped McCain win.
by KLRinLA on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.66 / 3)












by Cheebs on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:36:52 PM EST

FAIL! BO!!!! (2.00 / 1)


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FAIL! BO!!!! (2.00 / 1)

Bo Knows Failure- so he sure didn't pick Hillary Clinton.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 6)

Wait...

So the Clinton infighting, bickering, internal rivalries, and whatnot are what we want? Mark Penn going to Columbia brokering a deal while campaigning for Clinton who was against said deal?

So THAT is what we want in the oval office?

A wise man once said to get the log out of your own eye before trying to remove the stick out of your friend's eye.


by Zotnix on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:45:34 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Brokering deals with Ivy League universities is a no-no???!!! Who knew!


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:55:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 3)

I can't believe you're actually comparing campaigns and desicion making here. This is really not Hillary's strong suit.

Isn't she the one who was tricked by Bush ( BUSH!!!) into

voting for the war?


Yawn.
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:49:05 PM EST

No. She voted for allowing (2.00 / 1)

inspectors into Iraq - the record is CLEAR that she did not vote for the war.


by CoyoteCreek on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. She voted for allowing (2.00 / 3)

The bill gave Bush authority to use military force in Iraq. I can't imagine she didn't understand what she was voting for. I sure did as did the millions who protested around the world and about half of congressional Democrats.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. She voted for allowing (2.00 / 2)

um I belive the name of the bill was:

Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002

where does the word inspector fit into this?


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. She voted for allowing (2.00 / 1)

She went to Yale Law School, right?  You don't think she saw the implication from the legislative text?


by rfahey22 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. She voted for allowing (2.00 / 2)

Then why did she vote against all three amendments which would have promoted inspectors and made it more difficult to march to war? In her own speech she said that she wanted Bush to go back to the U.N. first. That was called for in an amendment that she voted again.

I suppose it's possible that all three were flawed. However, in her own speech she makes the case that the bill itself was flawed. Why, then, was there no Clinton Amendment to be voted on? If she thought the bill was so flawed, why not make her vote contingent on her own amendment? Or one of the others?

Why vote for something you yourself have described as flawed and dangerous without making any attempt to amend it to the better? And, once doing so, then try to turn around and claim you voted for something that you clearly didn't vote for and that the text of your own remarks makes it clear you didn't vote for? She makes it very clear in her own remarks that she knew the bill authorized Bush to do whatever he darn well pleased in terms of starting a war with Iraq.

That's not a vote for inspectors. There were other ways to vote for inspectors. That's a vote allowing Bush to start a war. Perhaps she was tricked by Bush, believing that he was in fact honorable and wouldn't tear off into a war without following her conditions, even though she voted against putting those conditions on him (perhaps because he was so honorable he wouldn't need to be bound that way). Or perhaps she made the decision based on political calculations, thinking it was more important to look tough on the war for her own future than the possible impact on the U.S., Iraq, etc.

I'm not real happy with either of those.


No Way. No How. No McCain-Palin!
by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. She voted for allowing (2.00 / 2)

Bingo!

I wouldn't expect a substantive response to this as this by far the most inconvenient truth of the whole AUMF head-fake of the Hillary army.

Watching this election, I came to the conclusion that "experience" was really code for "voted for Iraq war".  The fact of the matter is that when Hillary had the opportunity to demonstrate leadership, when it was MOST needed during her Senate tenure, she made a very bad political calculation instead and is now paying the very appropriate price for it.


by Pragmatic Left on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.50 / 2)

Keep in mind that in 2002 most NY'ers were screaming at what just happened to this great city and she was answering to her constitutes... do you think she would have been re-elected is she didn't listen to the peoples will?  
GWB decided to take advantage and create an unjust war by chasing the wrong guys... not the terrorists that attacked our country.
So, at least she acted at least she did something instead of write some speech about it which mind you... there is no audio or video of that "famous" anti-war speech, which if you actual read it states, THIS IS NOT AN ANTI-WAR SPEECH

"Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances."

The biggest problem with this argument that NObama opposed the war is he gave a speech... he isn't on record for anything he didn't vote on it, so there is no record, so this argument is lame... really lame.  Stay focused on what he did vote for when he was voting...Remember he did vote to fund the war in Iraq... oh, but wait - I'm sure he Meant to say he was voting to fund the troops not the war.

Do we really need a guy like this?  Seriously, someone always has to correct him stating... this is what he meant to say.  We already have a president like this... his name is George Bush.  I want someone that has proven record on change, not some flash in the pan


by radarmel on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 5)

Unlike some of your pro-Clinton diaries, this didn't bring me one iota closer to voting for Clinton in the Oregon primary.


by letterc on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:51:56 PM EST

the pattern (2.00 / 3)

has unfortunately become clear, and already Obama and others are setting HRC up to take the fall if Obama loses the election.  Apparently her winning the popular vote and completing the primary season is viewed as "damaging" to Obama.

So people here can spam and insult all they want.  Sooner or later they will need to work with their candidate on this, you know, start helping him take responsibility instead of going negative against anyone who raises it as a transparently troubling issue that must be addressed!


by 4justice on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:54:17 PM EST

Re: the pattern (2.00 / 2)

It's sad but true.  Hillary will get the blame.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the pattern (2.00 / 1)

Enough with the victim nonsense.  If Obama loses in the fall it will be his fault and his fault alone.


by Pat Flatley on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:06:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the pattern (none / 0)

It's good to hear someone say it.  Sad as I am for some of the Clinton campaign missteps, the truth is that there were missteps, and I certainly don't blame the opposition for the missteps.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:17:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the pattern (2.00 / 4)

I find it amusing you concede Clinton will get the blame, but won't assign any of it to her. As if she didn't share one single iota of the blame for her campaign being a total failure, or the possibility of costing the Democrats the election.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the pattern (2.00 / 1)

Why should she get any blame for costing the Democrats the election?  That one is solidly in Obama's court.  Sure, Clinton is responsible for her own campaign, but Obama will be responsible when he loses in November.  Even so, he or at least his surrogates will be blaming her.  I feel pretty certain of that because Obama has shown, over and over, that he refuses to accept responsibility for bad things that happen based on his own actions.


by Montague on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:11:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the pattern (2.00 / 2)

Wow. You just entirely belied your prejudice. I've never seen Clinton apologize or admit any wrongdoing about anything, ever. One of the best parts about Obama is he admits when he's wrong, and works to fix it.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:19:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Show me where... (2.00 / 1)

what I see is a pattern of non-apology apologies where he says sorry....so and so made a bad mistake. I see no "leadership" from him in this or, frankly, on any other issue.

June 2007:

" Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama on Monday disavowed a memo criticizing rival Hillary Rodham Clinton's financial ties to India, blaming his campaign staff for a "dumb mistake."

December 2007:

"A week after Politico provided the questionnaire to the Obama campaign for comment, an aide called Monday night to say that Obama had said he did not fill out the form, and provided a contact for his campaign manager at the time, who said she filled it out."

Course that one doesn't even appear to be true-but did he admit he did fill out the damn form...

April 2008:

"Politico received an amended copy of the questionnaire with notes on the front page written in Barack Obama's handwriting.  
    Through an aide, Obama, who won the group's endorsement as well as the statehouse seat, did not dispute that the handwriting was his. But he contended it doesn't prove he completed, approved -- or even read -- the latter questionnaire. "

Do we need to revisit Rev Wright? No, except to note: he never knew Wright said anything controversial, 20 years of bland sermons for him, then the Rev resurfaces and he's denounced for his extremist views which do not seem to have changed at all from what was first reported.

Bittergate though, will be the gift that keeps on giving. I agree with George Packer in the New Yorker on this:

"But Obama's devotees, who have an unattractively worshipful tendency to blame his mistakes on everyone but him, would do their candidate and the Democratic Party a favor by acknowledging the damage he's done to both. It wasn't accidental. Obama betrayed his own and his Party's essential weakness, and in the process handed the opposition a great gift. He won't be able to turn this weakness into the kind of strength that ends eras and wins elections until he understands what happened over the past few days."


berkshiretrueblue Commited to helping elect a Democrat as President "Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo" Ambroise Bierce
by berkshiretrueblue on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:31:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If Obama loes the GE (1.50 / 2)

for us, it will be the fault of:
(1) all the people who drank the kool-aid and did not do their homework on who the best candidate actually is;
(2) the MSM for not doing its job and looking into BHO's record (or lack thereof) and contributing to his getting the nomination.

If we lose the GE with BHO I hold all of you who foisted him on us as the nominee.  Don't ever come back and whine about the state of the nation when President McCain is ___ing it up.


Unity Ticket: The best damn way to kick John McCain's Ass in November!
by aurelius on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:26:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If Obama loes the GE (2.00 / 1)

Heh. There's just no responding to ignorance, I guess.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:31:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You people sadden me ... (none / 0)

Still fighting when the war is over.  Still a few battles to be fought, but the war is over.  


GeauxBama!
by DailyKingFish on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:03:37 AM EST

WOW. (1.66 / 3)

Excuse me, um, how does a complete and total shoe-in, someone who's married to the best president we've had in decades, fuck up something as simple as a primary?

If you can't even navigate a campaign that was on cruise control to the nomination, how can you navigate a country in chaos?

Hillary Clinton failed me, and failed all of you, in a big, big way.  She FAILED, and demonstrated terrible leadership throughout this process.

Hill is NOT Bill is what I've come to realize.

It is over. Grow up and get over it.


by AlexScott on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:22:54 AM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (1.66 / 3)

Obama also broke the DNC rules regarding no campaigning in Michigan or Florida when he held a press conference after a fund raiser.

What is most troubling is that Obama apparently didn't read what he signed just a day ago.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/ obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking
Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. ... If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

This is what a potential Obama presidency will be - do as I say and not as I do.


by gomer on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:34:10 AM EST

Oh boy (1.50 / 4)

With this level of competence, he'll be blaming his staff members for accidentally launching missles at our allies in Europe.

"Sorry, I thought it was the button to rotate the teleprompter."

rolls eyes


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:03:46 AM EST

See, now you were doing so good. (2.00 / 4)

Alegre, you'd publish that nice positive Hillary diary earlier and I was uplifted by your being able to write a diary that praised Hillary without attacking the presumptive nominee. Now we get this.

This is an ugly, desperate, last minute mudslinging attempt. Go right ahead. Republicans love it and it diminishes you and your candidate.

The fact of the matter is that Hillary is not going to be the nominee. I know that's difficult for you to handle at this time, but unless you're ready to send away for that GOP membership card, perhaps you could think twice before slinging slime for the Republicans.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:28:21 AM EST

To be fair (none / 0)

Sen. Clinton's campaign has it's share of ineffective staffers; it's better that she usually doesn't blame them, but is there a bigger snafu than Penn's 'we'll get all of California's delegates'?

Who agreed to hire that pompous moron and stick with him for so long, at great cost to the campaign?


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:43:07 AM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Didn't you get Maggie's memo? Obama hit-pieces are off the table. I guess this diary does prove that you don't work out of the Arlington office anymore.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:46:13 AM EST

he . never. takes. responsibility (1.33 / 3)

ever.  Why would anyone vote for this guy when he can't take responsibility for anything?


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:26:06 AM EST

16 million (none / 0)

A bit over 16 million voters have done just that so far, but you probalby think that all of them are duped koolaid drinkers, so it won't mean a thing as far as your concerned.

Thank God for democracy.


by hebi on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 1)

Here we go again with the hit diaries. I take back what I said yesterday comparing you favourably with another diarist (purportedly from Texas). We get the sweet slightly cloying eulogies for Hillary yesterday - which I have no objection too. And then the bitterness here...

Sweet bitter, bitter sweet...

Anyway, to all your Hillary supporters

Congratulations on your prospective victory in WV today!

You've all worked really hard, and deserve this moment. I think the majority of you, especially out in the real world, have expended your energies in a positive way, building up your candidate. I'm certainly more aware of her talents (and her faults) than I ever was. But one thing is not in doubt.

Hillary is no longer in Bill's shadow. She is so much more than a former first lady. She deserves a significant role in the future of US politics

And if Obama is the nominee, and Hillary rallies behind him for the sake of all their shared values, I'm sure the future will be very bright for her, as well as for the party


by duende on Tue May 13, 2008 at 09:50:13 AM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (2.00 / 4)

Alegre, you're doing your candidate no favors.


by Jordache on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:18:05 AM EST

Hillary incompentence is reflected in her campaign (none / 0)

Hillary doesn't even try to find good people, she settles for high priced incompentents like Mark Penn.

Loyality to HRC trumps compentence in Hillary's campaign.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:07:36 AM EST

Re: Hillary incompentence (none / 0)

In Silicon Valley, they call it a Bozo explosion.


by vegemighty on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:30:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hopefully this is the last attempt... (2.00 / 1)

...to damage Obama before the general election.

You can no longer hide behind Hillary's campaign, because its over.

I'm beginning to regard you as a Republican attack dog


by Silence Do Good on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:30:20 AM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Wow.  I like Hillary, but wow.  Some diaries are so transparently biased for one candidate and against another, it's hard to take them seriously.

Anybody could find examples of Hillary denying culpability for something too.  I'm not sure what that would prove, except having an axe to grind against her, and then finding convenient facts to build a narrative that doesn't actually mean much.

I'm not happy to know we're still playing those games against each other WITHIN the Democratic Party!  Are we not coming up on the end of the race, when we'll need to unite against the Republicans?  This kind of diary will only make that harder.

That being said - I'll do what I can to forgive and forget when the time comes.  I hope everyone else (on both sides) is preparing to do the same.


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:43:09 AM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Not a good diary!!


by telfishbackagain on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:48:03 AM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Hello Pot, It's The Kettle Calling. No need to repeat all Clintons misdeeds, misfilings, misspeaks, and misadventures. My fingers would develope arthritis from typing.


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:41:17 PM EST

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

ummmmmmmmmmm


by hillaryfighter on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:08:39 PM EST

wow (none / 0)

based on the campaigns these candidates have run, we should be deeply concerned about the management skills of...Obama???

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones...unless you've been doing so for months and have no more windows left to break.


by Djo on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:43:53 PM EST

Oh, Alegre (2.00 / 1)

Your pro-Clinton posts are so much better.  If your true purpose is to convince readers to support her, you're much better off touting her strengths than you are peddling this shit.

Give me reasons to support her!  At this point in the game, the anti- stuff just turns everybody off.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:43:03 PM EST

Re: Oh, Alegre (none / 0)

If you check Alegre's diary history, she's posted plenty of reasons to support Hillary. Take a look and be enlightened.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the tip. (none / 0)

Re-read my first sentence, and then note that I rec'd her other, pro-Clinton diary on the rec list.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the tip. (none / 0)

Re-read my post to check Alegre's entire diary history.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the tip. (none / 0)

Not sure what your point is, pal.  I've read lots of Alegre's diaries.  I like the positive ones that give reasons to vote for Clinton.  I rec them.  I don't like the trollish ones that do nothing but shit on the likely nominee.  I don't rec them.

I particularly liked the post where she pledged to support the Democratic nominee this fall, regardless of whether it's her candidate or not.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the tip. (none / 0)

No, you don't read Alegre's diaries. If you did, you'd see she consistently documents Hillary's accomplishments. You don't rec Alegre's diaries, either, as evidenced by the rec history.

To paraphrase your words, "I don't like trollish comments by Obama supporters who do nothing but shit on our most progressive nominee."

Instead of personally attacking the diarist, why not write your own diaries documenting the accomplishments of Obama? It's a pretty thin list, but have at it.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the tip. (none / 0)

Eh, you're being obtuse.

In each comment in this back-and-forth, I have stated that I like and respect Alegre's pro-Clinton posts.

Just to make sure you're getting it:

I LIKE PRO-CLINTON DIARIES THAT LIST HER MANY ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

I don't like her negative, anti-Obama posts.  They add nothing to the conversation.  This, of course, is my opinion.  Do me a favor and find any instance where I have ever "shit on our most progressive nominee," or, for that matter, on Sen. Clinton.  I like both candidates but prefer one.

The entire point of my post was to encourage Alegre to write her well-researched and thoughtful pro-Clinton diaries, and to give the negative, anti-Obama ones a rest.  I rec'd her diary about "Why she fights on" because it was a good testament to a powerful and supremely qualified candidate.  You seem to be challenging . . . what? I'm not sure.

You want the last word, have at it, I'm done here.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 04:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "I Wasn't A Decision Maker" (none / 0)

Alegre your about 3 weeks away from becoming a ditto-head.


A vote for John McCain is a vote against Hillary Clinton
by realistdem on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:59:13 PM EST

Yes it is! (none / 0)

To answer your last question.  Just curious, who are you planning to vote for in the GE, Barack, McBush, Nader, Barr, etc.?

I like Hillary and even hope she is chosen VP, but I am stunned at how nasty some of her supporters are here on this web site, just like I am equally stunned how nasty some of Obama's supporters are at DailyKos.  I think anyone who is trying to elect Democrats (as I believe both sites are dedicated to doing) should be ashamed of yourselves.


by sasatlanta on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:01:40 PM EST


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