Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism

It is time that feminists who have supported Clinton for the right reasons step up to the plate and criticize her for unacceptable remarks and practices. The women's movement has been deeply divided over the Clinton candidacy. Yet what started out as a legitimate disagreement about the merits of the candidates and their agendas has turned into a test of one's feminist credentials. But the test is perverse. It is not a test of feminist principles and values. It has become a test of loyalty to Clinton, in spite of the fact that she is undermining basic feminist values.

But perhaps one shouldn't speak of the "women's movement." After all, aren't there almost as many feminisms as there are feminists? However, it is safe to assume that feminists of different stripes share at least two basic principles: 1) one's dignity and sense of self-worth should not depend on one's gender, and 2) opportunities for achievement should not favor one gender over another. Almost all feminists have been willing to substitute "race" and "ethnicity" for "gender" in these two statements. Almost all feminists would argue that to set the oppressed against each other is reprehensible and undermines these principles. We rise or fall together. Isn't this what feminists have believed? Further, means are inextricably linked with ends. You can't promote human dignity by undermining it in your practices.

Clinton's recent comments and strategy have wrenched means from ends. In her quest for the presidency, and now perhaps the vice presidency (or who knows what else), she has behaved as if she is willing to see divisions widen between races and classes. Here is Hillary's recent comment in USA Today on the topic of white workers.

"There was just an AP article posted that found how Senator Obama's support among working, hardworking Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how the, you know, whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

This was not an accidental throwaway comment. (And Clinton can't hide behind the fact that she is "citing" an AP story. One is responsible for the news stories that one cites.) Numerous times during this race the Clinton campaign has attempted to make Obama the Black Candidate. What is so extraordinary about this recent statement is just how matter of fact it is. But suppose the positions were reversed. Suppose Obama was losing. Suppose Obama decided that he had to devise a "black strategy" in order to deny Clinton the nomination or gain leverage. Suppose Obama had said,

"There was just an AP article posted that found how Senator Clinton's support among working, hardworking Americans, black Americans, is weakening again, and how the, you know, blacks in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

Think of the implications. Obama would surely be viewed as playing the race card or perhaps the race deck. At minimum Hillary supporters would view Obama's version of the statement as fostering a divide between white women and blacks, for patently selfish ends. Further, it would be viewed as creating rifts in the Democratic Party that make winning in November more difficult, thereby undermining feminism, because the Republicans will not be good for women's issues.

Why aren't Hillary's feminist supporters taking her to task for these comments? We have heard some criticisms by Clinton supporters. But they are often softened with, "Well, she really didn't mean it." Nonsense on stilts. She meant it. Her campaign now depends on a strategy that the statement promotes. She wants to rack up a large white vote in West Virginia and Kentucky. She wants to be able to say that she is the candidate of white workers, especially white male workers. Anyone who doesn't call this for what it is, is an apologist. And one reason for being an apologist is the fear of failing the Hillary loyalty/feminist test. But this is wrong. It is putting Hillary above feminism(s).

Feminists who have supported Clinton need to speak out NOW, and speak out with vigor. Feminism(s), and what it stands for, is more important than Hillary Clinton.

http://msa4.wordpress.com/



Display:


And, um, how much experience (2.00 / 10)

as a feminist do you have?  And how, exactly, is she damaging feminism?  Because you boys say so?

Please get a clue.  There are millions of women as feminists who do not feel the same way you do.  It makes me wonder whether you ultimately are afraid of a strong woman.  Is that what's going on?


by 4justice on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:21:50 PM EST

Re: And, um, how much experience (2.00 / 9)

This diarist clearly has no idea what s/he's talking about. There is no basis for saying that Hillary is damaging feminism. In fact, you'll notice that the diarist wanders off that point and starts rambling about the "hard-working Americans, white Americans" comment. Then s/he tries to say it has something to do with feminism. It's convoluted logic, to say the least.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

True (2.00 / 2)

Which is why I say, "No, thanks." She's been thoroughly consistent and admirable in her remarks and practices.

It is time that feminists who have supported Clinton for the right reasons step up to the plate and criticize her for unacceptable remarks and practices.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 10)

Hillary is a strong no holds barred woman.

Why does that frighten you?

Where were you when Ted Kennedy the same Ted Kennedy that Obama hugged, killed the Carter 2nd term?

Its ok for a male to do it but a female has to play nice?

Go on Tea parties as the first lady?

I think not.


by DTaylor on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:22:58 PM EST

What the hell are you talking about? (2.00 / 10)

What does that statement you think is so full of racism/race-baiting have to do with women? And allow me to cut and paste my response to someone else who was trying to turn that statement into something divisive:

Once again, people have tried to turn this into a racist/race-baiting statement, when it isn't. Her exact words are:

". . .there was just an AP article posted, uh, that found how Senator Obama's, uh, support among, um, working, hard-working Americans, uhh, white Americans is, uh, weakening again."

Now, then. Instead of jumping to conclusions -- which is fun, I'm sure, but not exactly fair or logical -- let's think about this. She's talking about the working class here. Her non-college educated base. Working Americans. But look how she said it:

". . .there was just an AP article posted, uh, that found how Senator Obama's, uh, support among, um, working, hard-working Americans. . ."

Yikes... uh-oh. Oh shit. What did she just do? Taken alone, that sounds pretty damn bad. Why? Because she doesn't have the African American vote. Those people work, too. In fact, I bet a lot of them are pretty "hard-working". So there was a problem with what she said -- she said she had hard-working Americans when, in fact, she doesn't have anywhere near all of them. If she hadn't clarified and added, "white Americans", it would have sound as if she were implying that African Americans -- who are not supporting her -- aren't hard-working. If she hadn't clarified, Obama supporters would have said, "Clearly, she thinks all black people are lazy, shiftless layabouts."

It came out badly, yeah. But it was not race-baiting. She phrased the first part of her statement poorly. She added "white Americans" because it would have been untrue to just say, "I have the support of hard-working Americans." She caught herself, clarified, and her words were (once again) twisted into a sinister exercise in race-baiting. Surprise, surprise.

Oh wait. No surprise.

None at all.

She isn't a race-baiter, and she isn't damaging feminism, no matter how much you want her to be. DEAL with it.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:23:35 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

I think the "White americans" thing was a classic example of a gaffe. It was an unfortunate verbal stumble, and had it happened to a republican I'd have no qualms about attacking it; but Clinton is a Democrat and I truly don't believe she meant to be racially divisive with this comment.

It's just one man's opinion, but there it is.

I'm happy to criticize Clinton's feminism; the "stay home and bake cookies" thing, or the fact that she's perfectly happy to go by "Hillary" or "Hill" but you'd never see a male candidate running as "John" or "Bill" or "Barack." But at the same time she has, and continues, to pave important ground for women. And I think that should be acknowledged.


John McCain
by Mandoliniment on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:24:26 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

I think she's just going by Hillary because her last name is Clinton. I think it's an attempt to make sure people see her as being separate from her husband.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 1)

I hear that, but I also think that publicly referring to the junior senator from New York by her first name as if we're buddies is, frankly, disrespectful; and the whole "you go girl" diminutive meme doesn't her, the office, or the country any good.

Her questioning of General Petraeus - that's when (to me) she looked presidential; the moment when "Hill" or similar diminutive nicknames seemed the least appropriate.

But my brand of feminism is of a pretty liberal and academic bent, and I understand she has to play to a wider and more diverse audience than that.


John McCain
by Mandoliniment on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just old school (none / 0)

Jimmy Carter, not James Carter.  Bill Clinton, not William Clinton.  Rudy, not Rudolph.  Mitt, not Willard.  Teddy Kennedy (who may run as Edward; I don't know.)

I think your brand of feminism is not very feminist, if you can't see where many male politicians have used the friendly nicknames for themselves and yet remained very good public servants.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (none / 0)

It's really a shame that People do not believe that Hillary support is for her. We'll for Hillary due to school of thought that she represents and her ability to see that it gets done.

I thought that is why you were for Obama, so it is not good to question Hillary's supporter--the same support that she had in PA and will have in the upcoming states of WV & KY.


by Check077 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

No, I've supported Hillary because of her healthcare plan, and because of my entirely subjective perception of her electability. I like Bill as a person, but I'm kinda lukewarm about his presidency.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 1)

We saw one running as Rudy.  Hillary Clinton is well know to the country, and so it is not a stretch that she is known by her first name.  The poster above is right that she used it to distinguish her from her husband.  No, not their ideas and views and message, but to avoid the "Clinton said,,,," kind of thing leading to confusion about who said what.  No we don't usually have someone called by their first name but then we have never had a major candidate with the same name as another major president such as this is.  The baking cookies thing was 17 years ago at least, are you going to leave it 17 years behind at any time in the next 17 years or use it against her for as long as you can?


by Scotch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:48:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Going by first name is sexist????!!! WTF? (none / 0)

Dave Loebsack.  DAVE.  That's how he ran.  

http://www.loebsackforcongress.org/

Merely one tiny example.  Bill Clinton, in fact, goes by the friendly Bill.  He likes being called Bill.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why the snark tag? (none / 0)

It doesn't seem snark to me. Is it really one?


by Fairy Tale on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:28:11 PM EST

YOU are damaging the Democratic Party (1.87 / 8)

Sorry, the character assassination against a good Democrat by you and many of Obama's supporters have seriously hurt the party. Your attempts to play the race card and paint Senator Clinton as a racist yet again is disgusting.


by Rome890 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:31:25 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOT Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 4)

I think it's too soon to generalize. A lot of women in five states and PR still get the chance to campaign and vote for the candidate of their choice. If there's one thing that's true about a feminist - they don't take much to those who try to put them in a box or tell them how they should be thinking.


by pan230oh on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:31:50 PM EST

What a convoluted argument (2.00 / 6)

Let me get this straight...

Hillary is destroying feminism because she is promoting racism by pointing out that the FACT that she gets far more of the white vote than Obama does?

Grasp-at-straws much?

Carry on feminists for Hillary! It's not over until the lady in the pantsuits says it's over!


"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008
by twinmom on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:34:42 PM EST

w/o a vagina, you're hard to take seriously (1.20 / 5)

on any matters relating to gedner, let alone feminism.


by dcrolg on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:45:16 PM EST

Re: w/o a vagina, you're hard to take seriously (2.00 / 1)

Excuse me? While I have no vagina I most certainly have a gender.


John McCain
by Mandoliniment on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 6)

she is damaging feminism because men from elected congressmen to pundits are calling her a deranged stalker to needing to be taken out in a shed and be dealt with?

given the amount of this type of criticism, she is damaging feminism because the piling on is making her look weak?

she is damaging feminism because one of the scions of the democratic party, ted kennedy, says she cannot be vp because she's not qualified and has no vision? he, who contested the 1980 convention with less than half the delegates she has won so far?

has obama and michelle not played the race card before? stacking the stands behind them with carefully handpicked demographics to project their crossover appeal? doe we question the overwhelming majority of black voters about their motives for voting for obama? not really. yet, those who vote for hillary tend to be labeled as racists (see SNL). but had hillary gotten even half the support from the black community as obama has from the white electorate, she'd be the nominee today.

feminism is damaged, but not by her doing. she's gasping for air after everyone has dunked her below water.


by darwinism on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:47:02 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

I read some clap trap in The Nation trying to hang an argument on feminism...  finally, finally I canceled the damn subscription.  I'd been toughing it out for months now, but there is eventually a final straw.


by Susan in Oregon on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:50:51 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

Is this what you would call a concern troll?  LOL


by JustJennifer on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:01:38 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 1)

I want to hear the outrage from Hillary's supporters over the "cojones" comments, BOTH of them. Equating MALE genitalia with strength? What the HELL is going on? Why isn't there outrage over these ridiculous, anti-female statements from her supporters, who seem so happy to jump on even the most innocuous of comments from the Obama camp? Where's the outcry over the "bully-boys" when they threaten Pelosi as fiercely as they possibly can? Last time I checked, Pelosi was a woman and Harvey Weinstein was a man. Or does it only count as bullying when it's a man bullying a Hillary supporter or Hillary herself?

Where's the support of strong women when it's Brazile speaking her mind? Or Michelle Obama?


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:01:54 PM EST

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (1.33 / 3)

Donna is a shill for the Obama camp.  Michelle Obama wants to scratch BC's eyes out and slammed Hillary's daughter with her speech in OH

I have no problem with them speaking their mind.  I just disagree with them.  Brazile & MO aren't getting hit day after day like Hillary is.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:04:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 1)

oh, the cojones thing?  It is a well known comment - when you have balls, that means you are tough.

women don't have balls in the tech. sense, but in the virtual sense, they can and do.

I never saw it is as an insult.  They don't really mean she has male genitalia.  

Weinstein wants to have MI & FL votes count.  Pelosi doesn't.  He basically said that he would no longer support the DNC if they didn't have those 2 states count.  What is the problem here?  


by colebiancardi on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

balls (none / 0)

it is ridiculous to think that to be tough you have to have "balls."

it is also ridiculous to pretend that it isn't bigoted to think to be tough you have to have balls.

language matters. you can say you don't care, but you can't realistically say it's not biased language.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

lol - reminds of the poster who created a diary about Camilla Paglia to try and slam Hillary.  He (and it was a he) had in their title "Feminist Camilla Paglia against Hillary" or some BS like that

we women had to educate the poor fool on Camilla.


by colebiancardi on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:02:21 PM EST

as a male feminist (2.00 / 3)

i completely disagree with you


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:14:57 PM EST

Isn't Mitchell a boy's name? (1.66 / 3)

are you an expert on feminists?

I find nothing wrong with Hillary's comments because they are true.


by nikkid on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:15:50 PM EST

feminists care about racism, too. (1.50 / 2)

"Why aren't Hillary's feminist supporters taking her to task for these comments?"

simple. if they aren't taking Clinton to task for these hideous and obviously race-baiting comments, THEY AREN'T REALLY FEMINISTS. or they are the old-school racist version of feminists that did so much damage to the feminist movement in the 1970's (and 1910's).

Feminism is a movement to help ALL women, which includes Black women and other women of color. therefore racism is a feminist issue. so those who don't fight against racism but actually use and excuse racism are betraying feminism.

many younger feminists do get it, and reject this racist crap out of hand. don't let the "see no racism" brand of "feminists" fool you into believing otherwise. Racism is a feminist issue. go to "feministe" or any number of femnist sites and you'll see a holistic view of feminism that is very different from the one practiced in this campaign by Clinton and Ferraro.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:46:36 PM EST

Re: feminists care about racism, too. (2.00 / 2)

The civil rights movement was supposed to help ALL people too, which includes both genders. Therefore, feminism is a civil rights issue. So those who don't fight against sexism and actually use and excuse sexism are betraying the civil rights movement.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

real activists fight racism & sexism (none / 0)

"So those who don't fight against sexism and actually use and excuse sexism are betraying the civil rights movement."

"So those who don't fight against racism and actually use and excuse racism are betraying the feminist movement."

there is absolutely no way to argue the truth of these statements.

thank you very much LakersFan for your VERY insightful comment. i agree 100%.

and i look forward to real Democrats getting back to fighting both of these issues, instead of Obama supporters ignoring sexism and Clinton supporters ignoring racism. the bigots are united, we better be united against all forms ofbigotry.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: real activists fight racism & sexism (2.00 / 2)

If you agree with me, you shouldn't say things like "or they are the old-school racist version of feminists that did so much damage to the feminist movement in the 1970's (and 1910's)."

If it weren't for the feminists of the 1910s, women still wouldn't be able to vote. If it weren't for the feminists of the 1970s, we still wouldn't have any female elected Senators.

We all (men and women) owe a huge debt of gratitude to these women, many of whom fought for civil rights before they fought for women's rights. To label early feminists as racist is completely unjustified and unfair to the women who completely changed our world. (And similar statements could be made about about the sexism of early civil rights activists, but why would any Democrat want to undermine their achievements?)

Try showing some respect to these trailblazing women.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

honesty about racism in past helps feminism (none / 0)

"If you agree with me, you shouldn't say things like 'or they are the old-school racist version of feminists that did so much damage to the feminist movement in the 1970's (and 1910's).' "

i agree with your first statement, not this one.

if we lie about the racism of SOME of the early feminists, or about the sexism by SOME in the fight for civil rights, we alienate those who kow the truth.

the early feminists wer heroes, but at the same time they were saddled by the legacy of American racism. and that racism hurt the feminist movement.
for example, Margaret Sanger, a hero of the birth control movement, equated African Americans with animals. so if you deny this was racism, people will think you mean the hideous things she said were not racist, which would make them think you are racist.
likewise Frederick Douglas said some very unfortunate things about women, and if you deny they are sexist you look like a sexist.

we cannot lie our way thru these bigotries. we have to address them, admit them, and apologize for them, only then can we move past them.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: honesty about racism in past helps feminism (2.00 / 2)

You really don't get it. The "divide and conquer" strategy of the bigots in this world has worked like a charm on you.

Congratulations. You've been bamboozled.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"bamboozled" by honest feminists (none / 0)

look, i've LEARNED from brillaint feminists like Patricia Hill Collins, Audre Lorde, Gloria Anzaldua, bell hooks, and a literal legion of others. you could learn alot from them, too, if you cared to listen to them.

you are the one trying to divide the feminist movement, by denying that oppressions faced by women of color should be addressed by feminism. sorry, but if we drop male privilege, we also have to drop white privilege. i know SOME white women don't want to do this, but many many others want feminism to address issues that affect ALL women.

i sincerely hope you will read some works by feminists of color, and realize it is not the addition of the issues that affect women of color that divide the feminist movement, but the wish to exclude these women's issues that is divisive.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:10:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "bamboozled" by honest feminists (2.00 / 1)

How about you read something by some white feminists before you start labelling the feminists of the 70s as racists? I don't claim that a black women can't be simultaneously for civil rights and feminism. But you seem to think that a white feminist can't be similarly for civil rights.

And don't try to hang the divisive label on me. I am emphasizing the common issues among the civil rights and women's movements. You're the one playing "us vs. them" and focusing on divisions among feminists.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "bamboozled" by honest feminists (none / 0)

"You're the one playing "us vs. them" and focusing on divisions among feminists."

i am ACKNOWLEDGING what many many feminists, women of color AND white women, have already said: the movement has to address oppressions faced by ALL women, or it's not useful.

i've never said anything that insinuated white women can't be for civil rights, i've done the opposite, said that white feminists SHOULD be for civil rights.
however, i do recognize and acknowldge the reality that unfortunately SOME white women put their white privilege ahead of helping women of color. that is undeniably true. (i also ackowledged the sexism of SOME in the civil rights movement, i'm being fair to all sides.)

there was racism in the feminist movement of the 1970's, sorry but that's a fact. if you deny it you lose all credibility with those who KNOW it is true. AND YOU DON'T NEED TO DENY IT! you can honor what they did right, and FIX what they did wrong. those who don't remember the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. you are proving that.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bamboozled by those who seek to oppress women (2.00 / 2)

There was sexism and womanizing among civil rights leaders too. But it would be extremely stupid and selfish if we let that get in the way of recognizing and appreciating their amazing accomplishments.

The effort to end oppression against women IS for all women. Too bad you're doing the bidding of men who still are threatened by the women's movement.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent (none / 0)

I agree 100% with you.  Stokely Carmichael for one.  I'm not going to hold the entire movement for minority rights captive to his sexist comments.  


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't believe you recommended this trash. (none / 0)

Oh, wait... Yes I can.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: feminists care about racism, too. (none / 0)

Racism is a feminist issue.

And sexism is an African-American issue.

Can we agree on these things?  There's been much progress in recognizing the rights of women and people of color, and there's more progress needed.


by Montague on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am NO EXPERT, but... (2.00 / 1)

...I will say that it is not too far a stretch to make to think that if Hillary's supporters and surrogates go too far in attacking Obama, and are PERCEIVED to have knee-capped him in the process, that she will be blamed for the potential reversal of Roe V Wade in a McCain white house/SC.

If the CW becomes that in her zeal she gets McCain elected, which leads to a Roe V Wade reversal, the feminist community (or to be fair at elast portions of it) will hold her to account...and frankly, she'd deserve it.

Now, I agree that the diairst is off track and meandering and perhaps veers into territory that is ancillary.  And like I say, i am no expert...but I DO know something about politics and social response by interest groups, and I am not out of line to suggest that neither Hillary's gender nor her obvious role as a great leader (regardless of the crowd...feminists or otherwise) will insulate her from shouldering the burden of blame IF she damages Obama past the point of electability.

FRANKLY, though...I doubt that this outcome is going to happen.  Dems/progressives will come to their senses when Hillary endorses (and she WILL...she is a great politician and loyal) and we will unite behind the democratic nominee.  Hillary will demand it of all of her people.  And if you love and respect her, you'll honor her wish when it comes.  

If I am wrong about her...


by a gunslinger on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:48:59 PM EST

you are so full of shit (1.50 / 4)

go back to dailykos.


I am sick of the disrespect shown to Sen.Clinton by many on Dailykos, and now, too often, here. You aren't winning hearts and minds.
by SoCalVet on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:31:14 PM EST

Re: you are so full of shit (2.00 / 1)

People are really sensitive about being linked to DKos.  The mention of it is enough to make anyone cringe, let alone the though that they might have to go back there or worse, came from there.  It couldn't be pride because there is nothing to be proud of.


by Scotch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary is NOW Damaging Feminism (2.00 / 2)

I kept waiting for the part that assigned this to feminism, but it never appeared.  Some like to rewrite feminism to encompass every  issue on the face of the earth except for gender discrimination.  As a feminist I object to you demanding Clinton address the black/white issue in the race because she is a woman.  If she were a man and said the same damn thing about working class whites, would it be named a feminist issue?  No, because it has no particular connection to gender, or to gender discrimination and repression which is what feminism addresses and which has characteristics of its own. It is shameful that you are using her gender to once again try to repress what she says, assign shame to her because of her gender, and to try to push a faux notion of feminism.


by Scotch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:32:30 PM EST

that's white feminism (none / 0)

"...to gender discrimination and repression which is what feminism addresses and which has characteristics of its own."

gender discrimination does have characrteristics and damges of its own. but that doesn't mean that is all feminsim addresses. that may be all WHITE feminism addresses.
but other feminists realize that all women aren't white, and thus suffer from other "isms" than sexism. they feel feminism should address these, too. thus, racism is a feminist issue.
to them, and me, any feminism that ignores the multiple oppressions women face is the "faux feminism."


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:50:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that's white feminism (2.00 / 1)

Try as you like feminism cannot be diluted and made over into having to do with everyother issue.  That is an attempt to lesson its focus on specific discrimination and repression having to do with being a woman although a woman of every color.  The only thing that this diary covers having to do specifically with repression of women or gender is using Clinton's gender as a way to get at her on the race issue.  It is another way to call her a racist.  It won't work. It boils down to being a hit diary on Clinton using her gender.  That in itself is sexism.  It's a sexist diary.


by Scotch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

old school feminism not for today (none / 0)

thank you for your spirited defense of a feminism that only helps white women.

but try as you like feminism cannot be diluted and made over into having only to do with helping white women.

that was the mistake of the 1910's and 1970's. yes, lots of white women were glad to throw their sisters of color overboard, to insist on removing male privilege while insisting on keeping their white privilege. (obviously SOME still feel this way.)
today's feminists can see thru the VERY thinly veiled racism inherent in that view, and thus feminism is miles ahead of the racist past. it is actively fighting sexism, racism, classism, homphobia, ableism, all of the REAL LIFE oppressions women face.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: old school feminism not for today (2.00 / 1)

This white female vs. black female war you've concocted is not accomplishing anything in this world (unless you like the sound of "President McCain") and makes it apparent that you know very little about the women's movement. Did you ever stop and think about who benefits when people create imaginary divisions among feminists of different ethicities?


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's called reality (none / 0)

"This white female vs. black female war you've concocted"

"when people create imaginary divisions among feminists of different ethicities?"

i'm not concocting anything. i know alot about the women's movement, but it sounds like you don't know or seem to care anything about the issues raised by women of color very loudly since the 1970's.

read some Barbara Smith, Patricia Hill Collins, bell hooks, Gloria Anzaldua, or almost anything written by feminists of color. there are enough writings to fill libraries on this subject.
the authors are rightly angry at SOME white feminists for pretending that feminism that ignores the oppressions they face is feminism for everyone.

to deserve the name "feminism" you have to help all women. to paraphrase Barbara Smith "anything less is not feminism, but merely female self-agrandizement"


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's called reality (2.00 / 1)

Funny how it's so easy for you (and the "feminist" writers you speak of) to put down white feminists. You claim that no one can be a true feminist if they spend their time oppressing other women, but apparently there's an exception to this rule as long as you're denigrating white women.

Since you and your heroines have so much trouble supporting white feminists, it sure sounds like you're engaging in self-aggrandizing and not really feminists at all.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

outright lies (none / 0)

i am not denigrating all white women. i AM denigrating the actions of white women who call themselves feminist while clinging to or embracing racism, as unfortunately has happened with some of my former heroes like Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton.

i said, repeatedly, that SOME white women were racist, you have expanded that to dishonestly claim i bashed all white feminists. that's an outright lie.

there are many white feminists who know that feminism has to help all women. they believe the feminist movement is bigger and better than a just a movement to help white women (as do i). i believe the VAST majority of white feminists feel this way. unfortunately, during this campaign, we've heard too often from those who disagree, as in this thread.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: outright lies (1.75 / 4)

Lies? You claim that Hillary Clinton was one of your heroes and now you call her a racist. You claim that sexism and racism are equivalent, but then you only criticize white feminists. It's pretty clear that someone's lying here.

Maybe we should get into criticizing all of your civil rights heroes because they aren't ideologically pure on all issues related to equality? You do understand that pretty soon you're going to end up hating everyone.

And the funniest part is that you can't even see how you're playing right into the hand of bigots of all colors and genders. They've got you right where they want you...criticizing the very people who are trying to protect your rights.


by LakersFan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: outright lies (2.00 / 1)

I seriously wish I could mojo each of your comments in this thread multiple times.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:51:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: outright lies (2.00 / 2)

Thanks. I really never expected to spend so much time on this discussion as feminism isn't my big issue, but I sense that there's something very insidious going on here. Getting feminists (or women) of one color to turn on feminists of another color is clearly a strategy designed demonize feminism and to keep women "in their place". The only people that benefit from this are men who seek to continue their patriarchal dominance in our culture. I find it sad that anyone who considers themselves knowledgable about the struggles for civil rights and equal rights would fall for this.


by LakersFan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

more outright lies (1.00 / 3)

"You claim that sexism and racism are equivalent, but then you only criticize white feminists."

again, that is a fucking outright lie, and a 30 second check of my posts here would prove it.
i have written OVER AND OVER AGAIN  about the sexism thrown out by Obama supporters as well as the racism from Clinton supporters.

I've called out sexism as often as i've called out racism. in fact, i bet i have more troll rates than anybody still visiting DailyKos due to my constant outbursts against the sexism on that site. it's not my word, YOU CAN LOOK IT UP.

but i know you won't, because you are a lying and unfair person. you don't give a shit about racism because you back a white candidate who uses racism. ANYONE CAN SEE i call out racists and sexists. and everyone can see you excusing racism. one day, you'll be ashamed of yourself, or you won't be, and you'll join the ReThugs officially.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

proof to refute outright lies (none / 0)

"You claim that sexism and racism are equivalent, but then you only criticize white feminists."

PROOF THIS IS A LIE:
(all these are from MyDD in the last 6 weeks. i have written even more about sexism at DailyKos, and been troll rated like crazy for it.)

Fight racism AND sexism, or cede election to ReThugs
http://www.mydd.com/user/catchaz

sleazy kossacks
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/19/1851 4/3197

Theme Song for Feminist Strikers Everywhere
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/19/1851 4/3197

ReThug attacks: cookie-gate and bitter-gate
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/13/1624 7/5287

Obama supporters, don't hurt our cause!
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/11/1928 58/875

Chelsea Clinton shows how to do it right!
http://www.mydd.com/user/catchaz/blog/2

anyone who claims i only complain about white feminists, that i don't also addrss sexism, is an outright liar. apology accepted, Lakerfan, if you're honest enough to admit you're wrong.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof to refute outright lies (1.66 / 3)

I'm not spending my life reading your posts. I'm only discussing what has gone on in this thread.

You have no problem criticiaing white feminists, but have you criticized any feminists who aren't white?
Did you call Hillary Clinton and Geraldine Ferraro racists?
Is there a reason that you said "they are the old-school racist version of feminists that did so much damage to the feminist movement in the 1970's (and 1910's).?

It appears that you hold white women to higher standard than men, or women of color. This is unfair discrimination and counterproductive to attaining equality for women. You have taken a very accusatory tone and resorted to profanity. It's clear that this issue touches a nerve with you, but your anger is directed at all the wrong people.


by LakersFan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

more outright lies (none / 0)

"I'm only discussing what has gone on in this thread."

"It appears that you hold white women to higher standard than men"

that is an outright lie. as my previous post demonstrates. you are presented with direct proof what you are sayign is wrong, and you keep saying it. you are like the hideous person on the tape that refuses to believe Obama isn't Muslim.

i have PROVEN i criticize male sexists, and you have flatly said you will not read the PROOF. which makes you completely dishonest.

"I'm only discussing what has gone on in this thread."

my life is bigger than this thread. in this thread i criticized racism from Clinton supporters. in about 20 others here and on Kos i've criticized male sexists. you are OUTRIGHT LYING when you only read the ones you don't like and say that's the whole story. I've PROVEN thats not true. and your open lying PROVES you know you are wrong.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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