New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ

Eric Boehlert finds the media's call for Clinton to drop out of the race one of the most disingenuous practice of double-standards in the modern history of party nominations:

No longer content to be observers of the campaign, journalists now see themselves as active players in the unfolding drama, and they show no hesitation trying to dictate the basics of the contest, like who should run and who should quit. It's as if journalists are auditioning for the role of the old party bosses.

...Looking back at history, it's hard to find evidence of the same media response to Ronald Reagan's failed 1976 presidential campaign. Taking on President Gerald Ford, Reagan lost more primaries than he won, and Ford won a plurality of the popular vote, but neither man had enough delegates to secure the nomination. So the campaign went to the GOP convention, where Ford prevailed. The bitter battle did nothing to damage Reagan's reputation (in fact, it did quite the opposite), in part because the media did not collectively suggest the candidate was acting selfishly or irrationally. Instead, Reagan walked away with a reputation as a resilient fighter who stood up for his conservative values.

And what about Sen. Ted Kennedy's doomed run in 1980? He trailed President Jimmy Carter by more than 750 delegates at the end of the primary season and insisted on fighting all the way to the convention, where he tried to get committed Carter delegates to switch their allegiance. The press did not spend months during the primary season ridiculing Kennedy, in a deeply personal tone, for remaining in the race.

And what about Gary Hart in 1984? He and Walter Mondale split the season's primaries and caucuses evenly, and neither had the 2,023 delegates needed to secure the nomination. Superdelegates eventually determined the winner. (Sound familiar?) Mondale had many of them locked up even before the campaign season began, so after the final primary between Mondale and Hart was complete, it was obvious that Mondale was going to be the nominee because Hart could not persuade enough superdelegates to change their mind and support him.

When Hart took his crusade all the way to the convention, the media did not form a posse and decide it was their job to get Hart to quit for the good of the party. (And the press certainly didn't form a posse in March to start pushing Hart out of the race.) Nor did the press collectively suggest that Hart had an oversized ego that had turned him into a political monster.

That new media standard has been created exclusively for Hillary Clinton.

And where were the catcalls in 1988 for Jesse Jackson to ditch his quixotic run before all the primary votes had been tallied? He finished with 1,200 delegates, nearly 1,400 behind Michael Dukakis, yet soldiered on all the way to the convention without having a prayer of winning the nomination. There were few if any media drum sections trying to pound him out of the race.

Or Jerry Brown in 1992? He continued his campaign against Bill Clinton through June despite the fact he tallied fewer than 600 delegates. (By contrast, Hillary Clinton has won approximately 1,600 delegates so far.) Brown's attacks at the time were far more personal and bruising than anything we've seen this cycle. As The New York Times reported on June 2, 1992, Brown "put his party on notice that he intends to carry his politics-is-corrupt, Clinton-is-unelectable message to the Democratic National Convention in New York in July, and beyond." Brown also told the Times that voting for Clinton was like buying a ticket on the Titanic.

...If you look at Reagan and Kennedy and Hart and Jackson and Brown, those men all ran competitive races. But toward the end of the primary season it was clear most of them had no mathematical chance of winning the nomination. (Reagan was the exception.) Yet none of them was told collectively by the press to go home. Nor were they routinely depicted in the media as being self-absorbed.

Today, Clinton does have a chance to win. Yet she has been told by the press to go home and to get over herself.

I was on the side of Kennedy, Hart, Jackson, and Brown, in those races. I'm sure the ones on boss media's side now, the ones asking 'when will the bitch quit', would have been making the same asinine arguments on behalf of Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, and Clinton, back then too... right. This will result in a gender blowback that will come back to bite the Democrats in the GE.



Display:


Brown's ironic point (2.00 / 4)

It seems that Jerry Brown quote about Bill Clinton taking the party down like the Titanic sounds a lot like you and other Hillary supporters foretelling doom if Obama's the nominee.

Obama is, in so many ways, just like Bill Clinton in 1992.


by elrod on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:18:16 AM EST

Re: Brown's ironic point (2.00 / 3)

The Clinton of 2008 has reminded me so much of the Clinton of 1992.  The tactic is to pretend that you're being attacked.

I remember a debate where Jerry Brown brought up allegations that Clinton had be steering contracts to his wife's law firm.  He responded, "I don't care what you say about me, but don't you dare attack my wife."  The audience cheered - this was when he was still able to get away with that - and the point was lost.

As a matter of fact, that's what "I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies" came out of.  A reporter asked her about the same issue, and she tried to make it seem as if it was an attack on her having a career.  

And then Republicans attacked her for "belittling stay-at-home-moms" and phony outrage met phony outrage.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brown's ironic point (none / 0)

And, I guess I could go on, thus the battles of the 90s were joined.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:31:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Backlash Politics (2.00 / 2)

they're the masters of creating/manufacturing a backlash to a frontal attack.

I actually admire them for that.

She won NH accidentally via a backlash.  This time the backlash was organic and it developed without their hand (she really did breakdown - it wasn't acting).

But other times, the acting was bad enough to shame Faye Dunaway's performance as Joan Crawford.  In particular, the cheesy sob about being snubbed at the SOTU.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:59:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 1)

Or how about the supposed using of the dread "finger" to scratch his face. Well that was manufactured mostly by her supporters.


by Tatan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 4)

It's seriously a wonder to behold.

Check out the video of the woman who interrupted Bill Clinton to ask why health care failed in the 90s?  He leaned in to get her question... but just a few words, so that he could then answer something else.  She tried to finish what she was saying, and Bill goes "Now wait a minute, wait a minute - I let you talk, now you listen to me!"

The crowd erupts, Bill smirks, and repeats "you listen to me... you listen to me".


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (none / 0)

I am just amazed, that after the way she went after Democrats in Congress on Health Care in the 90's. She was allowed to get away with doing the same thing again on the gas tax, threatening Congressional Democrats. She must have thought Superdelegates were going to be forced to vote for her if she did well in Indiana and North Carolina, to be able to spit in fellow Democrats face like that.  Talk about imperial presidency.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (none / 0)

That seems to have backfired in a couple of ways: first - the threat to superdelegates was noticed, and responded to; just not the way she would have wanted.  Secondly, Obama, who had been dealing with Wright for about a month at this point, and nothing else, was finally given policy to talk about.  It revitalized him.


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:43:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 2)

sorry to interrupt your Hillary bashing party here, but how exactly did she 'go against' or 'go after' democrats on health care in the 1990s? Or on the gas tax thing for that matter?

I thought you all were the anti-establishment folks, now its all about how establishment democrats are just great? I don't get it. Hillary is, or isn't the establishment, please make up your mind.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 2)

Do some research on how Hillary refused to work with congressional democrats on Health reform in the 90's, particularly as relates to Sen. Moynihan.  She said she learned a lesson from that, but apparently not, judging from the gas tax holiday demagoguing.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So she took the fall (none / 0)

how awful of her. Whats your point other than to dish a little hate?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So she took the fall (2.00 / 1)

I think you misunderstood what the lesson was. If you try to force something through without even working with members of your own party, you aren't going to be very successful.  That's what she did in the 90's with healthcare.  She failed and said she learned her lesson, but here she was again with the 'gas tax holiday' doing the same thing.

I don't know where you got some hateful message from my post.  I think you may be projecting.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wasn't projecting (none / 0)

is that the new Obamo supporter meme, btw? I am starting to miss 'hyperbole'... anyway, I digress. Its so odd how easily you all forgot how anti-establishment the Clintons actually are. Yes, still are. Do you think its of coincidences that Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy has all basically back Obama?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't projecting (2.00 / 1)

Well, taking your lead I guess this is where I'd veer off and accuse you have Obama hate.  

Instead I'll just wish you a good night, and apologize for trying to answer your original question which I thought was in good faith.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:24:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So she took the fall (2.00 / 1)

She was the only one in this race I was prejudiced against because of her past history.  

And the way she went about Health Care in the 90s, and some of the little personality trends that seemed to emerge about her, were major factors in that.

I was willing to be openminded about her, but her campaign needed to overcome her negative past, and she did not do that.  At this point you might be able to say I passionlessly hate her.  But I can point to alot of very specific reasons.
And unless your from Chicago and really know personal information about him, I doubt you can say the same about Obama.  None of the anti-Obama stuff has much detail that I see here, and the little detail I see seems to be factually inaccurate to the point that the person posting it must know that.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (1.66 / 3)

That is obama's version of facts. It is the same gang of Democrats Kennedy, Lehey and rest of the gang that sabotaged her plan because they did not want a woman to upstage them. The misogynist pigs.
I agree she could have been more tactful.
You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:49:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 1)

"The misogynist pigs."

It isn't about her being a woman.  It is about her being the unique person that she is.  Senator Clinton is praised for her willingness to be a fighter.  Well, she's got a track record of treating people with whom she disagrees, even fellow Democrats, as enemies and as beneath her.

Read up on how she screwed up health care reform.  It fell apart, in large measure, because she was unwilling to compromise with people who had real concerns, and she was unwilling to treat conservative Democratic congressmen (who represented blue collar whites, ironically) with respect!


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

nonsense (2.00 / 1)

she has no such record.  She does have a record of getting things done.
But it is pretty obvious that the status quo is supporting Obama.  All the old rich white guys who can't stand that a strong women might get to the oval office rather than them and the man they imagine will be their puppet.
For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:28:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (2.00 / 1)

Um.  Hillarycare.

Do you actually know how she handled that?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

"All the old rich white guys who can't stand that a strong women might get to the oval office rather than them and the man they imagine will be their puppet."

So, you can read minds!  Excellent!  But what about his supporters who aren't rich old white guys?

So you're suggesting that Senator Obama has somehow managed to craft a coalition of people at the very top and the very bottom and this is somehow a bad thing, because these two groups hate women, nevermind that millions of women have voted for him?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

Teresa my dear, have you read anything about the Hillarycare debacle in the 90's?   Hillary was calling Congressional Democrats into her office and calling them POLITICAL DEAD MEN because they didn't align themselves with her plan.  

This isn't some misogynist smear, this isn't some mindless Hillary attack.  It is a valid point that is backed up by numerous accounts of the Clinton years in the White House.  You love that Clinton is a "fighter," and that's exactly how she conducts her business.  If you don't agree with her, you are gonna get into a fight.  That's her style, and she admits as much.

Now, I personally don't think that is the best way of getting things done.  And I think Hillary's legislative record proves that.  Now Teresa, if you would like to refute any of what I just said, I would love that.  But don't call me a "rich white guy who can't stand a woman in power" or any of that bullshit.  This is an academic conversation, let's keep it on an intellectual level.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 1)

On Health Care in the 90s she refused to work with Congressional Democrats when they tried to compromise on Health Care, she told them they would be "demonized" if they didn't get in line and support her plan.  I believe there has been a letter published that she wrote to one of them apologizing and saying she wished she had gone with their plan.

With the gas tax, she demanded that Congress show their support for her plan, with a for us or against us attitude.  This when Congressional Democrats were already saying it would not get through Congress.   That is an attack on sitting Democrats that goes beyond her contest against Obama.  I think Rachel Maddow has a clip of it buried in one of her available radio shows if you wanted to listen.

And I am against DLC-Democrats, and narrow focus special intrest driven politics, I am proliberal,  or any conservative that believes in fiscal responsibility and conservation (although I prefer liberal democrats).  Anti-establishment sounds like something from the 60s.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah (2.00 / 1)

So now we need to compromise with Republicans- got it. Its pretty obvious that Pelosi and Reed got the memo.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah (2.00 / 1)

Again, I don't think you are reading.  Where did you get 'Republicans' out of what he posted?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I think you are not getting it (2.00 / 1)

what was to compromise on other than Congressional Dems wanting control and power? The establishment that you folks are so hell bent on rejecting with Obama- remember? If Congressional dems weren't concerned about Republican push-back, then where's the need for negotiation? Shouldn't they have been 100% behind UHC?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:27:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I think you are not getting it (2.00 / 2)

I will try one last time.

I am a big Jimmy Carter fan, I thought for the time he was in he was correct in nearly all his ideas.  But he was a terrible politician for working with people to get those idea through Congress.  The diffrence was Jimmy Carter did not understand why he would need to compromise, if people thought his ideas were "right".

Clinton may have been the same in all respects.  Correct in her ideas, not understanding the need to compromise(although I think she was too smart/pragmatic for this to be true), but when it came down to it she attacked her fellow Democrats when they told her they couldn't pass the legislation she proposed.  They tried to offer a diffrent solution, and she would not accept it, she had a "with me or against me" attitude.  And it is that attitude and her inability to overcome it that I have a problem with (one of many). She hurt the American people with that attitude because we lost the Health Care that Democrats told her they could get through Congress.

Well I am going to bed, good night.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I think you are not getting it (none / 0)

I would have to disagree with you.

I do think that HRC was too head-strong when she was first lady, trying to push through health care reform. And perhaps you are right that she was trying to get too much and unwilling to compromise and work with Congress.

However, I would say that she no longer has that attitude. 8 years in the Senate has changed that. As did the lesson she learned after the debacle when she was first lady. She is seen by her collegues as one who can work across ideological lines and who can compomise for the greater good, etc.

Support her or not, I don't mind. But I think your statement is incorrect.


by carrieboberry on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I think you are not getting it (none / 0)

I might agree with you, if she hadn't campaigned the way she did.  I was willing to give her a chance at the start of this process, but she needed to address the past with her campaign.
But instead she always seems to take the hostile course, and I think that is her personality and attitude.  Respond with attacks, either overtly or covertly.  The gas tax issue she attacked fellow members of congress demanding they choose sides and proves who they are with (saying she was on the side of the American people) this to me was a repeat of Health Care.   I am not sure that her 8 years in the Senate meant much, she seemed to be careful about not doing anything controversial, which led to her error on the Iraq War.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 2)

That's such a gross distortion of what happened to the Clinton health care reform in the 90's. In fact, Jim Cooper D-TN [Obama's Tennessee Campaign Chair] and the Blue Dogs tried to muscle Clinton into giving up on mandates--in deference to the GOP and corporate donors those Democrats support; the very same corporate donors that Obama supports and relies on right now.

The GOP killed the health care reforms and Blue Dog Democrats helped them do it.

If you're really against DLC-Democrats, you would have a tough time supporting Obama because he is a DLC Democrat all the way. He even hired the DLC's Chief Economist as his economic advisor, and the very Blue Dog Democrat--Jim Cooper--who sold health care reform down the river in the 90's.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (none / 0)

Wow, that is a gross misrepresentation of Obama and his policies.  He doesn't like the DLC enough that he actually called them to have his name removed from a listing book of "New Democrats" they put out.  


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:57:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How Dare She!!!! (2.00 / 1)

How dare she!  Uppity witch.  Who does she think she is?  She, she, she!!  She did this horrible thing and she did that.  Lot's of pejorative 'she's in that statement.

As for backlash - just you wait, Henry Higgins.  The misogyny will not be forgotten - and it will not be swept under the rug (not gonna allow it).  Women in general have been on the receiving end of the gender backlash - and not just online.  

So you may think its all peachy keen because you harbor personal antipathy towards Hillary Clinton, and that makes it OK - but the rest of us out here  - well we're taking it PERSONALLY.    


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:54:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (2.00 / 1)

We won't be fetching his slippers at the end of the story, either.


by bellarose on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (none / 0)

Ha, amen. Let the gender backlash begin...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (none / 0)

You fell for it.  Jerome puts "When will the bitch quit" in his title, and you all react to it as if it wasn't coming directly from Jerome.

Congratulation to this site for sticking another wedge in the party.


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you troll rate it (none / 0)

Best way to shut someone up - right?  Well go ahead.  You do realize you troll rated me for decrying misogyny.  This isn't you 'defending' Senator Obama.  If you'll look back at my previous comments (and posts) you'll realize I'm planning on voting for Obama should he be the nominee.  I certainly don't hate the man.  

What I will not stand for (nor keep silent over) is misogyny dressed up in faux Democratic dogma.  That's what the whole "She's a bitch" crap is about - misogyny.  You can criticize her all you damn well please - but on her record, not her gender.  I took to task a comment I felt relied on gender alone to criticize - and I'll continue to do so - troll ratings be damned.


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you troll rate it (none / 0)

Talk about staring too long into the abyss.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (none / 0)

I am sure I do not understand what you are talking about, so now a pronoun is pejorative?
I would think the greatest misogyny would be comming from the person who mistakes "she" as negative.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Three Little Words (none / 0)

And if you don't understand the reference - I suggest looking up the musical stylings of Bert Kalmar and Harry Ruby.


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (none / 0)

you spend way too much time over analyzing this stuff- its starting to make it look like you are just making it up. So, have you always hated the Clintons, or is it just for this primary season?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 1)

how about some honour for Bill Clinton? He told her the truth, she was just another Kossack like you, who attacks Clinton, but knows nothing of the political cirumstances of the time. He told it to her best: that Bob Dole was told that he could never be elected President or get a congressional majority if he compromised. Thats the damned truth.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 2)

I love how you use Kossack like it's a derogatory term.  Don't hold back.  Tell us what you really think.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brown's ironic point (2.00 / 1)

what a hypocrite Kennedy has turned out to be - tells hillary to get out of the race while he did the same thing!


by suzieg on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:44:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media (2.00 / 5)

But those arguments were made throughout all of them, with the exception of Clinton/Brown, where Brown just wasn't considered to be a general election threat.

Why "bitch" by the way?


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:18:20 AM EST

Re: The media (2.00 / 5)

Gender-baiting, just like race-baiting.  Accuse your opponent of sexism to delegitimize his or her point. It's just as bad as Jesse Jackson, Jr. talking about Hillary not crying for Katrina.


by elrod on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media (2.00 / 2)

Thank you, Captain Obvious! ;)


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:29:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right. I mean (2.00 / 1)

it isn't like we haven't seen the meat puppets of the opponent actually use sexism and misogyny openly in reference to HRC.

A recent example

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/10/2216 27/470


"Barack did the Constitution just like he did Hillary. He was riding dirty."
by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right. I mean (2.00 / 1)

I'm pretty sure there's a Latin phrase for the logical fallacy of "if one does it, they all do it."

Would you want to be defending the people who have used racism against Barack Obama?


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right... (2.00 / 1)

Our friend Peter Wallsten, writing in the LA Times, spoke with Obama campaign adviser Air Force Gen. Merrill "Tony" McPeak (Ret.)

Asked about the "gravitas" Sen. Hillary Clinton asserts that she has, and implies Sen. Barack Obama does not, McPeak disputed the notion, saying Obama has "real gravitas, not artificially created, focus-grouped, poll-directed, rehearsed gravitas."

He also said Obama "doesn't go on television and have crying fits; he isn't discovering his voice at the age of 60."

Ouch.

"Dream ticket," indeed.

McPeak later retracted his remarks, and the Obama campaign said McPeak's words "crossed the line" and that Obama "strongly disagrees with these comments and apologizes on behalf of the campaign."

McPeak served as Air Force chief of staff under former Presidents Bill Clinton and George HW Bush.

He will likely not serve in any possible future Clinton administrations.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/02/key-obama-advis.html


"Barack did the Constitution just like he did Hillary. He was riding dirty."
by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right... (2.00 / 2)

I am not going tit-for-tat with you.  You, and the diarist, are using identity politics to try and get everyone to retreat into defensive crouches, and possibly to keep a fire lit under yourselves as well.

Has their been sexism aimed at Hillary?  Yes.  Has their been racism aimed at Obama?  Yes.  Is it the norm?  Absolutely not.  Does it justify "when will the bitch quit?"  No.

And this was exactly what I said in my last post - I have no idea why you just dragged that reeking corpse into here.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a guess... (2.00 / 1)

I would guess desperation.


by Tatan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course you don't (2.00 / 1)

want to get into it. By now your memory is fully jogged and you know what comments are coming next and you won't be able to justify the head meat puppet making sexist comments.

I have no idea why you just dragged that reeking corpse into here.

Because you said this

I'm pretty sure there's a Latin phrase for the logical fallacy of "if one does it, they all do it."

It isn't a case of "one" doing it. What is it that David Axelrod said about insidious patterns of racism from the Clinton camp?

Yeah, goose meet gander.


"Barack did the Constitution just like he did Hillary. He was riding dirty."
by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:13:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course you don't (1.00 / 2)

Got yourself worked up yet?  Nice and lathered up?  Now have fun talking to yourself.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Just like your (none / 0)

dear leader. When the going gets tough take a walk.


"Barack did the Constitution just like he did Hillary. He was riding dirty."
by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right. I mean (2.00 / 1)

Si alguien lo hace, todos lo hacen.

Of course even in Spanish we see this as a logical fallacy.


by Tatan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media (2.00 / 5)

The differences between then and now:

1) Like it or not, African American voters will be seriously pissed if Obama has the lead in elected delegates and that is overturned.

2) I hate to say it, but the elections of 1976, 1980, 1988 and 1992 were NOT as critical as this election- SCOTUS, Iraq, etc. George W has managed to make this an election we can't screw with.  And there IS a chance a bitter fight will suck up money, etc. needed to combat McCain and Bush.

3) No matter what you want to claim, MI and FL broke the rules, so to claim they should be seated as is is every bit as disingenuous as the role you claim the press is playing.  Perhaps... if the Clinton campaign didn't play fast and loose with the rules, the press wouldn't play fast and loose with asking Clinton to quit???


by Bob Beard on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:21:25 AM EST

Re: The media (2.00 / 2)

The other difference is that nearly all SD's have said they will not let this go to the convention.

There will be no convention battle, something the media would LOVE to see.  To claim that the media is trying to force Clinton out before that happens is absurd.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, guess what? (2.00 / 1)

A lot of women are seriously pissed off at the double standard, the sexism, the misogyny that have been used to push Hillary Clinton out of this race.  As an historical matter, women are the only disadvantaged group that has consistently gone to the barricades for every other disadvantaged group.  Women, white and black, spear-headed the civil rights movement starting back before the civil war.  It was white women who pushed to spread the worker-rights movement beyond white native born men, to include blacks, women, immigrants and children.  It was women, black and white, who kept the civil rights movement going through the first half of the 20th century.

African Americans might want to think about that before they get too seriously pissed off.


by dbrown04 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:36:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, guess what? (none / 0)

Actually, it's the Jews who have gone to bat for every civil rights movement in American history.  That fact makes me proud to be Jewish.


by elrod on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Like the Palestinians? n/t (none / 0)


by dbrown04 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, guess what? (none / 0)

I think African American women are fairly clear on where they stand.

Besides, do you know how angry Clinton-supporters are?  Well imagine if the nomination were being handed to Obama when he was actually behind in all the democratic metrics?  Votes and elected delegates?

Then you might understand what kind of backlash is coming.


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The media to democrats: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Obama is Bill Clinton!

Who knew!

Say....wait just a minute here. Bill Clinton is a racist. A Southron white male racist. I heard Oprah, or was it Alice Walker, say so.

And Barry is black, well sorta,  How can one be like the other?

I just don't understand....just don't 'get it'....

Ah...now.....

This...this I 'get'.

.


by Pericles on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:25:11 AM EST

Re: The media to democrats: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Well, which was it?  If you're going to accuse people of calling the Clintons racists, you'd better back it up.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:33:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media to democrats: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

You're trying for hip.

But I am not inspired enough to even click your link. Sorry.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I for one have said it before. (2.00 / 3)

Of the Clintons, Bill is the charismatic one.  It must be hard for Hillary who has always been just as ambitious as Bill to always take a back seat to him...as she said 'He sucks all the air out of the room'.

Now she's running against someone who is also more charismatic than she is and also sucks all the air out of the room.

Nothing to do with black or white, it's personality, personal magnetism and charisma that makes Barack and Bill resemble each other.

And it's also why Obama will win in November.  That's what makes the Republicans scared of him...the charismatic ones always win.  Always.


I trust Senator Obama.
by GFORD on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:57:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 4)

I must have missed where the entire world was teetering on the edge of a precipice after 8 years of total American-instigated disaster and the prospect of 8 more years of the same.

This is a unique time in our history and to downplay that and the importance of defeating McCain is to be both deaf and blind to the cries of those who have suffered from our policies and will suffer only more under John McCain. So it should be no small wonder to anyone with a working frontal lobe that people panic about the chances of the Democrats in the fall. So much rides on it. The lives of thousands of our bravest soldiers and millions of innocent Middle Easterners, for one, not to mention the countless that are being purged from the earth by the global warming John McCain truly does not believe in or intend to do anything about.

If you don't see that, you are beyond help.


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:28:08 AM EST

You actually make a good case for HRC dropping out (2.00 / 7)

In every case you listed the party that fought in the convention lost in the general election.  The single case where the losing candidate dropped out in June is the case where that party one.

1976 - Reagan/Ford - Carter Wins
1980 - Carter/Kennedy - Reagan Wins
1984 - Mondale/Hart - Reagan Wins
1988 - Jackson/Dukakis - Bush I wins

1992 - Convention is used as party solidification around Clinton, including an endorsement speech by Brown.  Clinton wins.

Thanks for clarifying why Clinton should concede now for the good of the party in November


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:28:27 AM EST

There was no fight in 1984, either (2.00 / 3)

the nomination was over after California primary, in the first week of June.

Mondale, as the presumptive nominee, spent the next few weeks interviewing a series of Democrats at his home in Minnesota (Feinstein, Bentsen, Cisneros, Goode, a few others).

And then he named Geri as his running mate before the convention started.  He was the first nominee to name his running mate prior to the convention (excluding reagan's con-job in the '76 convention).


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There was no fight in 1984, either (2.00 / 4)

my mistake.

The premise still stands though.  When a party fights at the convention they lose in the fall.

For HRC to win the primary she must take it to the convention.

Based on history this plan leads to loss in the GE.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:08:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you realize how offensive your words are? (2.00 / 5)

I love the double standards you've got going for you.  Those who cry racism in West Virginia will be banned from the site, but it's perfectly acceptable to insinuate that those who want HRC to suspend her race now are not only doing it because they are apparently blinded by a big media boss but because they, to quote you, "are asking 'when will the bitch quit.'"  But you're not accusing anyone of sexism, are you?


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:32:50 AM EST

the "Bitch" word (2.00 / 2)

Yep,

The OP feels free to put the word "bitch" as coming out of my mouth.  Ergo, he's obviously approving me using the term "n@#$@r who doesn't know his place" coming out of his.

Right??  I mean you want to be logically consistent.  Right?


by Regenman on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:37:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the "Bitch" word (2.00 / 2)

The whole thing made me want to start a "Re-instate the West Virginia 6!" movement.

Or go on to ban everyone accusing sexism of playing a role in the election, and then ban anyone who has complained about the evils of the southern "black voter bloc".

That last category would turn this site into the admins talking to each other.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you for this diary (2.00 / 3)

jerome - i wrote about Boehlert's piece several times...  the fourth estate has failed.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:33:06 AM EST

Actually, Mark Penn failed (2.00 / 3)

So did Hillary for hiring him.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that the only comment you have? (none / 0)

What, did Mark pick on you in school or something?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 1)

I'm guessing Penn stole his lunch money.  And dinner money, dessert money, snack money...


by therealdeal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 2)

Like he stole everyone else's money and provided very little work/knowledge/service for his wages?


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:14:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you just get here? (2.00 / 1)

He actually has a lot of comments on this thread.  But one line comments tend to attract one line rejoinders.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:11:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 3)

Somebody will write a book about the failings of this Mark Penn fellow in this campaign, and it won't be very humorous.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 2)

...but it will be 9,852 pages of very tiny print.


by Ray Radlein on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:17:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reiterating the Obvious--Party LOST!! (2.00 / 3)

Every example of a nomination fight, the other party wins.

So you want McCain to win in the fall?


by Regenman on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:34:20 AM EST

Other stats to remember (2.00 / 2)

Ford lost in 76

Carter lost in 80

Mondale's and Clinton's didn't extend to the convention.

remember mondale named his running mate prior the convention, after a series of weekend interviews at his in minnesota.

etc.

ps Hillary is a victim


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:34:27 AM EST

Bitch? WTF? (2.00 / 3)

Can I troll rate this post?

I think "when will the bitch quit?" would be TR'ed if it appeared in any of the comments.

This paranoid worldview from the Clintons I could respect. I mean they had the corporate media doing a virtual thumb through their underwear drawers when they were in the White House. But of course this was before Hillary made nice with Murdoch and Scaife. That boggled the mind.

Last cycle Kucinich ran all the way to the convention. As have many others in the past. And they were roundly ignored. I think you are confusing "you should quit" with "she has no chance" from media commentators. However if you want to do a pile-on on how crappy both of the candidates have been treated by the celebrity journalist corporate press I will join on in.

But whatever. The "THIS IS GOOD NEWS!....FOR HILLARY!!!" mentality will continue to prevail for the forseeable future in Jerome's posts.  


by wengler on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:36:35 AM EST

yeah - what about Huckabee (2.00 / 5)

the media called the race over after Romney dropped out, and the Huck needed 80 or something percent of the remaining delegates to win.  

where they wrong to call it over?

In the end, this is simply academic.  Hillary is broke.  Flat broke.  Her campaign bus won't move without any gas, even if she passed a gas tax cut.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:40:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bitch? WTF? (2.00 / 4)

Totally agree. Suggesting that Obama supporters are sexist is as bad as suggesting that Clinton supporters are racist.


by Jonmac on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oops I forgot about chicago 1968 (2.00 / 4)

the candidate during the convention, in late august 1968.

Nixon won.

He invaded Cambodia.

He committed a series of political crimes.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:36:36 AM EST

Jasper Lamar Crabb (none / 0)

Your sig line is intriguing but it seems inaccurate.  Can we get an explanation?

IMO, one can make a case that Chinatown is the greatest film ever made.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jasper Lamar Crabb (none / 0)

Read several hundred comments on this blog and you'll feel just like Faye Dunaway, shot in the back of the head. I should know.

And while Chinatown is a mind-altering film, I'm not sure it can compete with Vertigo for top honors. In America, twisted sex always tops politics.

Or is that the same thing?


by Rationalisto on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)


by Piuma on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:38:50 AM EST

Re: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Not bad, but i think this video below is better.  ;-)

Here is whats happening now on the state of the race...


by Avandi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Can't we all just agree (none / 0)

that Hillary should be the nominee and put the nation out of its misery?

Bill owes her that, at least.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:48:38 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 4)

"Clinton is being held to a different standard than virtually any other candidate in history," wrote Steven Stark in the Boston Phoenix. "When Clinton is simply doing what everyone else has always done, she's constantly attacked as an obsessed and crazed egomaniac, bent on self-aggrandizement at the expense of her party."

WRONG.  Mike Huckabee was treated the same way, both by the press, who gave him no realistic chance, and by McCain, who said that "he can campaign as long as he wants".

And that's just this year.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:54:37 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

the ones asking "when will the bitch quit", would have been making the same asinine arguments on behalf of Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, and Clinton, back then too... right.

Your ugly tone aside, the arguments for her to drop out are not asinine.  The SD's have made it very clear that there will be no battle at the convention this year.  It's also been made clear that she can continue to run as long as she stops the unfair attacks on the likely nominee.  

Three more weeks.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:56:39 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (1.50 / 4)

Oh, so Hillary's allowed to run as long as she doesn't criticize the man in the race.

What a convenient world you long to live in.


by Little Otter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

You can try to make this about gender if you want, but it has nothing to do with that.  When a person has no likely path to the nomination it is not acceptable to continue to attack the likely nominee.  Jeez.  Even Huckabee knew that.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

Hilary is "allowed" to do whatever she wants. But the risk is damaging her reputation, that of her husband, the chances of Obama winning in November, and the Democratic party as a whole. You wouldn't want that.

Or, would you?


by Rationalisto on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Are you actually comment on whether or not HRC should stop attacking the presumptive nominee, or is this another lame attempt to accuse someone of sexism?


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 8)

What do Gerald Ford in 1976, Jimmy Carter in 1980, Walter Mondale in 1984 and George H.W. Bush in 1992 have in common? Convention fights (the last four serious ones at the convention I can remember, or at least four of the most serious ones in recent memory). What else do they have in common? They all lost in the general election. How about McGovern in '72 or Humphrey in '68? While there might not be a causation between a convention fight and a party's loss (there could and were other factors that played large rolls in the losses mentioned that went beyond the convention fights for sure), there certainly has been a correlation between the two. It's for that reason that a lot of folks think it's in the Democrats' best interest to get this fight over before Denver and not at Denver.


My Direct Democracy
by Jonathan Singer on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:58:40 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Thank you for commenting on this Jonathan, and excellent comment.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Or (none / 0)

it could be the more obvious, that those folks were the losing candidates in a losing year for their party... I find it rather hard to make the correlation between a nomination decided at a convention and a losing result for the victor at the convention.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:51:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Or (none / 0)

The correlation is very clear: fight at convention = loss for party.

This is not an opinion, just stating the obvious


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How (none / 0)

everyone states this like its fact, but its really just an assumption. In all the instances Singer mentions, the candidate that lost was probably destined to lose, so how on earth does it have anything to do with what happens at the convention? Please, show me the evidence not the conjecture.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How (none / 0)

Like I said, I was stating the obvious. You need to check the definition of correlation. This is exactly like saying "No one every wins the presidency without winning Ohio..." or "You have to win Minnesota to win the presidency..." or any such thing.

If you want an opinion on the matter to argue with me over, I think Senator Clinton can go to the convention all she wants, she tone it down a bit.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you are tired (none / 0)

I wrote conjecture, not correlation... Other than that, your post made no sense to me and certainly didn't provide me with any evidence that shows convention fights lead to losing general election.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh wait! (none / 0)

I did write correlation up thread. However, I got the definition right- J. Singer was trying to point to a correlation and I said I found it hard to make that correlation. I have a dictionary if you would like me to share the definition with you?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No thanks, I'm good (none / 0)

In regards to your evidence, there is none, there is correlation. It's not scientific, yet, it's still a correlation. Which is the point I was trying to make until you started asking for evidence for a point I was not trying to prove. And, I am tired, but that's when I shine


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever (none / 0)

you said it was a fact. Facts need evidence. Other wise, its conjecture. And yes, even correlations need some sort of evidence to prove a... wait for it... relation. I.e. how the hell are the two related!
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:04:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever (2.00 / 1)

I enter room. Bucket falls on my head. I enter room again. Bucket falls on my head. I enter room yet another time. Bucket, again, falls on my head. I enter room a fourth bloody time, and the damn bucket lands on my head.

There is a correlation between yours truly entering the room and an ouch that ensues.

That's all I was saying. It is a fact that there is a correlation. You said there wasn't. I said there was. There still is.


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I see what you are saying (none / 0)

you are saying that a bucket is resting on the top of the door. Now, if you can show me the same connector between losing in the general election and a covention floor fight... Basically, where is the door? What is the door? What is the connector? With out it, it remains conjecture.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

42 (2.00 / 1)


_____________
PUMA: Perverse Undemocratic McCain Adherents
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:18:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]