New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ

Eric Boehlert finds the media's call for Clinton to drop out of the race one of the most disingenuous practice of double-standards in the modern history of party nominations:

No longer content to be observers of the campaign, journalists now see themselves as active players in the unfolding drama, and they show no hesitation trying to dictate the basics of the contest, like who should run and who should quit. It's as if journalists are auditioning for the role of the old party bosses.

...Looking back at history, it's hard to find evidence of the same media response to Ronald Reagan's failed 1976 presidential campaign. Taking on President Gerald Ford, Reagan lost more primaries than he won, and Ford won a plurality of the popular vote, but neither man had enough delegates to secure the nomination. So the campaign went to the GOP convention, where Ford prevailed. The bitter battle did nothing to damage Reagan's reputation (in fact, it did quite the opposite), in part because the media did not collectively suggest the candidate was acting selfishly or irrationally. Instead, Reagan walked away with a reputation as a resilient fighter who stood up for his conservative values.

And what about Sen. Ted Kennedy's doomed run in 1980? He trailed President Jimmy Carter by more than 750 delegates at the end of the primary season and insisted on fighting all the way to the convention, where he tried to get committed Carter delegates to switch their allegiance. The press did not spend months during the primary season ridiculing Kennedy, in a deeply personal tone, for remaining in the race.

And what about Gary Hart in 1984? He and Walter Mondale split the season's primaries and caucuses evenly, and neither had the 2,023 delegates needed to secure the nomination. Superdelegates eventually determined the winner. (Sound familiar?) Mondale had many of them locked up even before the campaign season began, so after the final primary between Mondale and Hart was complete, it was obvious that Mondale was going to be the nominee because Hart could not persuade enough superdelegates to change their mind and support him.

When Hart took his crusade all the way to the convention, the media did not form a posse and decide it was their job to get Hart to quit for the good of the party. (And the press certainly didn't form a posse in March to start pushing Hart out of the race.) Nor did the press collectively suggest that Hart had an oversized ego that had turned him into a political monster.

That new media standard has been created exclusively for Hillary Clinton.

And where were the catcalls in 1988 for Jesse Jackson to ditch his quixotic run before all the primary votes had been tallied? He finished with 1,200 delegates, nearly 1,400 behind Michael Dukakis, yet soldiered on all the way to the convention without having a prayer of winning the nomination. There were few if any media drum sections trying to pound him out of the race.

Or Jerry Brown in 1992? He continued his campaign against Bill Clinton through June despite the fact he tallied fewer than 600 delegates. (By contrast, Hillary Clinton has won approximately 1,600 delegates so far.) Brown's attacks at the time were far more personal and bruising than anything we've seen this cycle. As The New York Times reported on June 2, 1992, Brown "put his party on notice that he intends to carry his politics-is-corrupt, Clinton-is-unelectable message to the Democratic National Convention in New York in July, and beyond." Brown also told the Times that voting for Clinton was like buying a ticket on the Titanic.

...If you look at Reagan and Kennedy and Hart and Jackson and Brown, those men all ran competitive races. But toward the end of the primary season it was clear most of them had no mathematical chance of winning the nomination. (Reagan was the exception.) Yet none of them was told collectively by the press to go home. Nor were they routinely depicted in the media as being self-absorbed.

Today, Clinton does have a chance to win. Yet she has been told by the press to go home and to get over herself.

I was on the side of Kennedy, Hart, Jackson, and Brown, in those races. I'm sure the ones on boss media's side now, the ones asking 'when will the bitch quit', would have been making the same asinine arguments on behalf of Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, and Clinton, back then too... right. This will result in a gender blowback that will come back to bite the Democrats in the GE.



Display:


Brown's ironic point (2.00 / 4)

It seems that Jerry Brown quote about Bill Clinton taking the party down like the Titanic sounds a lot like you and other Hillary supporters foretelling doom if Obama's the nominee.

Obama is, in so many ways, just like Bill Clinton in 1992.


by elrod on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:18:16 AM EST

Re: Brown's ironic point (2.00 / 3)

The Clinton of 2008 has reminded me so much of the Clinton of 1992.  The tactic is to pretend that you're being attacked.

I remember a debate where Jerry Brown brought up allegations that Clinton had be steering contracts to his wife's law firm.  He responded, "I don't care what you say about me, but don't you dare attack my wife."  The audience cheered - this was when he was still able to get away with that - and the point was lost.

As a matter of fact, that's what "I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies" came out of.  A reporter asked her about the same issue, and she tried to make it seem as if it was an attack on her having a career.  

And then Republicans attacked her for "belittling stay-at-home-moms" and phony outrage met phony outrage.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brown's ironic point (none / 0)

And, I guess I could go on, thus the battles of the 90s were joined.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:31:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Backlash Politics (2.00 / 2)

they're the masters of creating/manufacturing a backlash to a frontal attack.

I actually admire them for that.

She won NH accidentally via a backlash.  This time the backlash was organic and it developed without their hand (she really did breakdown - it wasn't acting).

But other times, the acting was bad enough to shame Faye Dunaway's performance as Joan Crawford.  In particular, the cheesy sob about being snubbed at the SOTU.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:59:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 1)

Or how about the supposed using of the dread "finger" to scratch his face. Well that was manufactured mostly by her supporters.


by Tatan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 4)

It's seriously a wonder to behold.

Check out the video of the woman who interrupted Bill Clinton to ask why health care failed in the 90s?  He leaned in to get her question... but just a few words, so that he could then answer something else.  She tried to finish what she was saying, and Bill goes "Now wait a minute, wait a minute - I let you talk, now you listen to me!"

The crowd erupts, Bill smirks, and repeats "you listen to me... you listen to me".


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (none / 0)

I am just amazed, that after the way she went after Democrats in Congress on Health Care in the 90's. She was allowed to get away with doing the same thing again on the gas tax, threatening Congressional Democrats. She must have thought Superdelegates were going to be forced to vote for her if she did well in Indiana and North Carolina, to be able to spit in fellow Democrats face like that.  Talk about imperial presidency.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (none / 0)

That seems to have backfired in a couple of ways: first - the threat to superdelegates was noticed, and responded to; just not the way she would have wanted.  Secondly, Obama, who had been dealing with Wright for about a month at this point, and nothing else, was finally given policy to talk about.  It revitalized him.


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:43:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 2)

sorry to interrupt your Hillary bashing party here, but how exactly did she 'go against' or 'go after' democrats on health care in the 1990s? Or on the gas tax thing for that matter?

I thought you all were the anti-establishment folks, now its all about how establishment democrats are just great? I don't get it. Hillary is, or isn't the establishment, please make up your mind.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 2)

Do some research on how Hillary refused to work with congressional democrats on Health reform in the 90's, particularly as relates to Sen. Moynihan.  She said she learned a lesson from that, but apparently not, judging from the gas tax holiday demagoguing.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So she took the fall (none / 0)

how awful of her. Whats your point other than to dish a little hate?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So she took the fall (2.00 / 1)

I think you misunderstood what the lesson was. If you try to force something through without even working with members of your own party, you aren't going to be very successful.  That's what she did in the 90's with healthcare.  She failed and said she learned her lesson, but here she was again with the 'gas tax holiday' doing the same thing.

I don't know where you got some hateful message from my post.  I think you may be projecting.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:13:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wasn't projecting (none / 0)

is that the new Obamo supporter meme, btw? I am starting to miss 'hyperbole'... anyway, I digress. Its so odd how easily you all forgot how anti-establishment the Clintons actually are. Yes, still are. Do you think its of coincidences that Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy has all basically back Obama?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wasn't projecting (2.00 / 1)

Well, taking your lead I guess this is where I'd veer off and accuse you have Obama hate.  

Instead I'll just wish you a good night, and apologize for trying to answer your original question which I thought was in good faith.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:24:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So she took the fall (2.00 / 1)

She was the only one in this race I was prejudiced against because of her past history.  

And the way she went about Health Care in the 90s, and some of the little personality trends that seemed to emerge about her, were major factors in that.

I was willing to be openminded about her, but her campaign needed to overcome her negative past, and she did not do that.  At this point you might be able to say I passionlessly hate her.  But I can point to alot of very specific reasons.
And unless your from Chicago and really know personal information about him, I doubt you can say the same about Obama.  None of the anti-Obama stuff has much detail that I see here, and the little detail I see seems to be factually inaccurate to the point that the person posting it must know that.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:30:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (1.66 / 3)

That is obama's version of facts. It is the same gang of Democrats Kennedy, Lehey and rest of the gang that sabotaged her plan because they did not want a woman to upstage them. The misogynist pigs.
I agree she could have been more tactful.
You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:49:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 1)

"The misogynist pigs."

It isn't about her being a woman.  It is about her being the unique person that she is.  Senator Clinton is praised for her willingness to be a fighter.  Well, she's got a track record of treating people with whom she disagrees, even fellow Democrats, as enemies and as beneath her.

Read up on how she screwed up health care reform.  It fell apart, in large measure, because she was unwilling to compromise with people who had real concerns, and she was unwilling to treat conservative Democratic congressmen (who represented blue collar whites, ironically) with respect!


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

nonsense (2.00 / 1)

she has no such record.  She does have a record of getting things done.
But it is pretty obvious that the status quo is supporting Obama.  All the old rich white guys who can't stand that a strong women might get to the oval office rather than them and the man they imagine will be their puppet.
For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:28:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (2.00 / 1)

Um.  Hillarycare.

Do you actually know how she handled that?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

"All the old rich white guys who can't stand that a strong women might get to the oval office rather than them and the man they imagine will be their puppet."

So, you can read minds!  Excellent!  But what about his supporters who aren't rich old white guys?

So you're suggesting that Senator Obama has somehow managed to craft a coalition of people at the very top and the very bottom and this is somehow a bad thing, because these two groups hate women, nevermind that millions of women have voted for him?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: nonsense (none / 0)

Teresa my dear, have you read anything about the Hillarycare debacle in the 90's?   Hillary was calling Congressional Democrats into her office and calling them POLITICAL DEAD MEN because they didn't align themselves with her plan.  

This isn't some misogynist smear, this isn't some mindless Hillary attack.  It is a valid point that is backed up by numerous accounts of the Clinton years in the White House.  You love that Clinton is a "fighter," and that's exactly how she conducts her business.  If you don't agree with her, you are gonna get into a fight.  That's her style, and she admits as much.

Now, I personally don't think that is the best way of getting things done.  And I think Hillary's legislative record proves that.  Now Teresa, if you would like to refute any of what I just said, I would love that.  But don't call me a "rich white guy who can't stand a woman in power" or any of that bullshit.  This is an academic conversation, let's keep it on an intellectual level.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 1)

On Health Care in the 90s she refused to work with Congressional Democrats when they tried to compromise on Health Care, she told them they would be "demonized" if they didn't get in line and support her plan.  I believe there has been a letter published that she wrote to one of them apologizing and saying she wished she had gone with their plan.

With the gas tax, she demanded that Congress show their support for her plan, with a for us or against us attitude.  This when Congressional Democrats were already saying it would not get through Congress.   That is an attack on sitting Democrats that goes beyond her contest against Obama.  I think Rachel Maddow has a clip of it buried in one of her available radio shows if you wanted to listen.

And I am against DLC-Democrats, and narrow focus special intrest driven politics, I am proliberal,  or any conservative that believes in fiscal responsibility and conservation (although I prefer liberal democrats).  Anti-establishment sounds like something from the 60s.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah (2.00 / 1)

So now we need to compromise with Republicans- got it. Its pretty obvious that Pelosi and Reed got the memo.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ah (2.00 / 1)

Again, I don't think you are reading.  Where did you get 'Republicans' out of what he posted?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I think you are not getting it (2.00 / 1)

what was to compromise on other than Congressional Dems wanting control and power? The establishment that you folks are so hell bent on rejecting with Obama- remember? If Congressional dems weren't concerned about Republican push-back, then where's the need for negotiation? Shouldn't they have been 100% behind UHC?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:27:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I think you are not getting it (2.00 / 2)

I will try one last time.

I am a big Jimmy Carter fan, I thought for the time he was in he was correct in nearly all his ideas.  But he was a terrible politician for working with people to get those idea through Congress.  The diffrence was Jimmy Carter did not understand why he would need to compromise, if people thought his ideas were "right".

Clinton may have been the same in all respects.  Correct in her ideas, not understanding the need to compromise(although I think she was too smart/pragmatic for this to be true), but when it came down to it she attacked her fellow Democrats when they told her they couldn't pass the legislation she proposed.  They tried to offer a diffrent solution, and she would not accept it, she had a "with me or against me" attitude.  And it is that attitude and her inability to overcome it that I have a problem with (one of many). She hurt the American people with that attitude because we lost the Health Care that Democrats told her they could get through Congress.

Well I am going to bed, good night.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I think you are not getting it (none / 0)

I would have to disagree with you.

I do think that HRC was too head-strong when she was first lady, trying to push through health care reform. And perhaps you are right that she was trying to get too much and unwilling to compromise and work with Congress.

However, I would say that she no longer has that attitude. 8 years in the Senate has changed that. As did the lesson she learned after the debacle when she was first lady. She is seen by her collegues as one who can work across ideological lines and who can compomise for the greater good, etc.

Support her or not, I don't mind. But I think your statement is incorrect.


by carrieboberry on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, I think you are not getting it (none / 0)

I might agree with you, if she hadn't campaigned the way she did.  I was willing to give her a chance at the start of this process, but she needed to address the past with her campaign.
But instead she always seems to take the hostile course, and I think that is her personality and attitude.  Respond with attacks, either overtly or covertly.  The gas tax issue she attacked fellow members of congress demanding they choose sides and proves who they are with (saying she was on the side of the American people) this to me was a repeat of Health Care.   I am not sure that her 8 years in the Senate meant much, she seemed to be careful about not doing anything controversial, which led to her error on the Iraq War.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (2.00 / 2)

That's such a gross distortion of what happened to the Clinton health care reform in the 90's. In fact, Jim Cooper D-TN [Obama's Tennessee Campaign Chair] and the Blue Dogs tried to muscle Clinton into giving up on mandates--in deference to the GOP and corporate donors those Democrats support; the very same corporate donors that Obama supports and relies on right now.

The GOP killed the health care reforms and Blue Dog Democrats helped them do it.

If you're really against DLC-Democrats, you would have a tough time supporting Obama because he is a DLC Democrat all the way. He even hired the DLC's Chief Economist as his economic advisor, and the very Blue Dog Democrat--Jim Cooper--who sold health care reform down the river in the 90's.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:58:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: excuse me, excuse me (none / 0)

Wow, that is a gross misrepresentation of Obama and his policies.  He doesn't like the DLC enough that he actually called them to have his name removed from a listing book of "New Democrats" they put out.  


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:57:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How Dare She!!!! (2.00 / 1)

How dare she!  Uppity witch.  Who does she think she is?  She, she, she!!  She did this horrible thing and she did that.  Lot's of pejorative 'she's in that statement.

As for backlash - just you wait, Henry Higgins.  The misogyny will not be forgotten - and it will not be swept under the rug (not gonna allow it).  Women in general have been on the receiving end of the gender backlash - and not just online.  

So you may think its all peachy keen because you harbor personal antipathy towards Hillary Clinton, and that makes it OK - but the rest of us out here  - well we're taking it PERSONALLY.    


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:54:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (2.00 / 1)

We won't be fetching his slippers at the end of the story, either.


by bellarose on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (none / 0)

Ha, amen. Let the gender backlash begin...


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (none / 0)

You fell for it.  Jerome puts "When will the bitch quit" in his title, and you all react to it as if it wasn't coming directly from Jerome.

Congratulation to this site for sticking another wedge in the party.


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you troll rate it (none / 0)

Best way to shut someone up - right?  Well go ahead.  You do realize you troll rated me for decrying misogyny.  This isn't you 'defending' Senator Obama.  If you'll look back at my previous comments (and posts) you'll realize I'm planning on voting for Obama should he be the nominee.  I certainly don't hate the man.  

What I will not stand for (nor keep silent over) is misogyny dressed up in faux Democratic dogma.  That's what the whole "She's a bitch" crap is about - misogyny.  You can criticize her all you damn well please - but on her record, not her gender.  I took to task a comment I felt relied on gender alone to criticize - and I'll continue to do so - troll ratings be damned.


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you troll rate it (none / 0)

Talk about staring too long into the abyss.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How Dare She!!!! (none / 0)

I am sure I do not understand what you are talking about, so now a pronoun is pejorative?
I would think the greatest misogyny would be comming from the person who mistakes "she" as negative.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Three Little Words (none / 0)

And if you don't understand the reference - I suggest looking up the musical stylings of Bert Kalmar and Harry Ruby.


by The Fat Lady Sings on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (none / 0)

you spend way too much time over analyzing this stuff- its starting to make it look like you are just making it up. So, have you always hated the Clintons, or is it just for this primary season?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 1)

how about some honour for Bill Clinton? He told her the truth, she was just another Kossack like you, who attacks Clinton, but knows nothing of the political cirumstances of the time. He told it to her best: that Bob Dole was told that he could never be elected President or get a congressional majority if he compromised. Thats the damned truth.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Backlash Politics (2.00 / 2)

I love how you use Kossack like it's a derogatory term.  Don't hold back.  Tell us what you really think.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Brown's ironic point (2.00 / 1)

what a hypocrite Kennedy has turned out to be - tells hillary to get out of the race while he did the same thing!


by suzieg on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:44:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media (2.00 / 5)

But those arguments were made throughout all of them, with the exception of Clinton/Brown, where Brown just wasn't considered to be a general election threat.

Why "bitch" by the way?


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:18:20 AM EST

Re: The media (2.00 / 5)

Gender-baiting, just like race-baiting.  Accuse your opponent of sexism to delegitimize his or her point. It's just as bad as Jesse Jackson, Jr. talking about Hillary not crying for Katrina.


by elrod on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media (2.00 / 2)

Thank you, Captain Obvious! ;)


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:29:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right. I mean (2.00 / 1)

it isn't like we haven't seen the meat puppets of the opponent actually use sexism and misogyny openly in reference to HRC.

A recent example

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/10/2216 27/470


by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right. I mean (2.00 / 1)

I'm pretty sure there's a Latin phrase for the logical fallacy of "if one does it, they all do it."

Would you want to be defending the people who have used racism against Barack Obama?


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:39:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Right... (2.00 / 1)

Our friend Peter Wallsten, writing in the LA Times, spoke with Obama campaign adviser Air Force Gen. Merrill "Tony" McPeak (Ret.)

Asked about the "gravitas" Sen. Hillary Clinton asserts that she has, and implies Sen. Barack Obama does not, McPeak disputed the notion, saying Obama has "real gravitas, not artificially created, focus-grouped, poll-directed, rehearsed gravitas."

He also said Obama "doesn't go on television and have crying fits; he isn't discovering his voice at the age of 60."

Ouch.

"Dream ticket," indeed.

McPeak later retracted his remarks, and the Obama campaign said McPeak's words "crossed the line" and that Obama "strongly disagrees with these comments and apologizes on behalf of the campaign."

McPeak served as Air Force chief of staff under former Presidents Bill Clinton and George HW Bush.

He will likely not serve in any possible future Clinton administrations.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/ 2008/02/key-obama-advis.html


by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right... (2.00 / 2)

I am not going tit-for-tat with you.  You, and the diarist, are using identity politics to try and get everyone to retreat into defensive crouches, and possibly to keep a fire lit under yourselves as well.

Has their been sexism aimed at Hillary?  Yes.  Has their been racism aimed at Obama?  Yes.  Is it the norm?  Absolutely not.  Does it justify "when will the bitch quit?"  No.

And this was exactly what I said in my last post - I have no idea why you just dragged that reeking corpse into here.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a guess... (2.00 / 1)

I would guess desperation.


by Tatan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course you don't (2.00 / 1)

want to get into it. By now your memory is fully jogged and you know what comments are coming next and you won't be able to justify the head meat puppet making sexist comments.

I have no idea why you just dragged that reeking corpse into here.

Because you said this

I'm pretty sure there's a Latin phrase for the logical fallacy of "if one does it, they all do it."

It isn't a case of "one" doing it. What is it that David Axelrod said about insidious patterns of racism from the Clinton camp?

Yeah, goose meet gander.


by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:13:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course you don't (1.00 / 2)

Got yourself worked up yet?  Nice and lathered up?  Now have fun talking to yourself.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Just like your (none / 0)

dear leader. When the going gets tough take a walk.


by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right. I mean (2.00 / 1)

Si alguien lo hace, todos lo hacen.

Of course even in Spanish we see this as a logical fallacy.


by Tatan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media (2.00 / 5)

The differences between then and now:

1) Like it or not, African American voters will be seriously pissed if Obama has the lead in elected delegates and that is overturned.

2) I hate to say it, but the elections of 1976, 1980, 1988 and 1992 were NOT as critical as this election- SCOTUS, Iraq, etc. George W has managed to make this an election we can't screw with.  And there IS a chance a bitter fight will suck up money, etc. needed to combat McCain and Bush.

3) No matter what you want to claim, MI and FL broke the rules, so to claim they should be seated as is is every bit as disingenuous as the role you claim the press is playing.  Perhaps... if the Clinton campaign didn't play fast and loose with the rules, the press wouldn't play fast and loose with asking Clinton to quit???


by Bob Beard on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:21:25 AM EST

Re: The media (2.00 / 2)

The other difference is that nearly all SD's have said they will not let this go to the convention.

There will be no convention battle, something the media would LOVE to see.  To claim that the media is trying to force Clinton out before that happens is absurd.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, guess what? (2.00 / 1)

A lot of women are seriously pissed off at the double standard, the sexism, the misogyny that have been used to push Hillary Clinton out of this race.  As an historical matter, women are the only disadvantaged group that has consistently gone to the barricades for every other disadvantaged group.  Women, white and black, spear-headed the civil rights movement starting back before the civil war.  It was white women who pushed to spread the worker-rights movement beyond white native born men, to include blacks, women, immigrants and children.  It was women, black and white, who kept the civil rights movement going through the first half of the 20th century.

African Americans might want to think about that before they get too seriously pissed off.


by dbrown04 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:36:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, guess what? (none / 0)

Actually, it's the Jews who have gone to bat for every civil rights movement in American history.  That fact makes me proud to be Jewish.


by elrod on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Like the Palestinians? n/t (none / 0)


by dbrown04 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:44:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, guess what? (none / 0)

I think African American women are fairly clear on where they stand.

Besides, do you know how angry Clinton-supporters are?  Well imagine if the nomination were being handed to Obama when he was actually behind in all the democratic metrics?  Votes and elected delegates?

Then you might understand what kind of backlash is coming.


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The media to democrats: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Obama is Bill Clinton!

Who knew!

Say....wait just a minute here. Bill Clinton is a racist. A Southron white male racist. I heard Oprah, or was it Alice Walker, say so.

And Barry is black, well sorta,  How can one be like the other?

I just don't understand....just don't 'get it'....

Ah...now.....

This...this I 'get'.

.


by Pericles on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:25:11 AM EST

Re: The media to democrats: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Well, which was it?  If you're going to accuse people of calling the Clintons racists, you'd better back it up.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:33:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The media to democrats: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

You're trying for hip.

But I am not inspired enough to even click your link. Sorry.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I for one have said it before. (2.00 / 3)

Of the Clintons, Bill is the charismatic one.  It must be hard for Hillary who has always been just as ambitious as Bill to always take a back seat to him...as she said 'He sucks all the air out of the room'.

Now she's running against someone who is also more charismatic than she is and also sucks all the air out of the room.

Nothing to do with black or white, it's personality, personal magnetism and charisma that makes Barack and Bill resemble each other.

And it's also why Obama will win in November.  That's what makes the Republicans scared of him...the charismatic ones always win.  Always.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:57:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 4)

I must have missed where the entire world was teetering on the edge of a precipice after 8 years of total American-instigated disaster and the prospect of 8 more years of the same.

This is a unique time in our history and to downplay that and the importance of defeating McCain is to be both deaf and blind to the cries of those who have suffered from our policies and will suffer only more under John McCain. So it should be no small wonder to anyone with a working frontal lobe that people panic about the chances of the Democrats in the fall. So much rides on it. The lives of thousands of our bravest soldiers and millions of innocent Middle Easterners, for one, not to mention the countless that are being purged from the earth by the global warming John McCain truly does not believe in or intend to do anything about.

If you don't see that, you are beyond help.


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:28:08 AM EST

You actually make a good case for HRC dropping out (2.00 / 7)

In every case you listed the party that fought in the convention lost in the general election.  The single case where the losing candidate dropped out in June is the case where that party one.

1976 - Reagan/Ford - Carter Wins
1980 - Carter/Kennedy - Reagan Wins
1984 - Mondale/Hart - Reagan Wins
1988 - Jackson/Dukakis - Bush I wins

1992 - Convention is used as party solidification around Clinton, including an endorsement speech by Brown.  Clinton wins.

Thanks for clarifying why Clinton should concede now for the good of the party in November


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:28:27 AM EST

There was no fight in 1984, either (2.00 / 3)

the nomination was over after California primary, in the first week of June.

Mondale, as the presumptive nominee, spent the next few weeks interviewing a series of Democrats at his home in Minnesota (Feinstein, Bentsen, Cisneros, Goode, a few others).

And then he named Geri as his running mate before the convention started.  He was the first nominee to name his running mate prior to the convention (excluding reagan's con-job in the '76 convention).


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There was no fight in 1984, either (2.00 / 4)

my mistake.

The premise still stands though.  When a party fights at the convention they lose in the fall.

For HRC to win the primary she must take it to the convention.

Based on history this plan leads to loss in the GE.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:08:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you realize how offensive your words are? (2.00 / 5)

I love the double standards you've got going for you.  Those who cry racism in West Virginia will be banned from the site, but it's perfectly acceptable to insinuate that those who want HRC to suspend her race now are not only doing it because they are apparently blinded by a big media boss but because they, to quote you, "are asking 'when will the bitch quit.'"  But you're not accusing anyone of sexism, are you?


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:32:50 AM EST

the "Bitch" word (2.00 / 2)

Yep,

The OP feels free to put the word "bitch" as coming out of my mouth.  Ergo, he's obviously approving me using the term "n@#$@r who doesn't know his place" coming out of his.

Right??  I mean you want to be logically consistent.  Right?


by Regenman on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:37:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the "Bitch" word (2.00 / 2)

The whole thing made me want to start a "Re-instate the West Virginia 6!" movement.

Or go on to ban everyone accusing sexism of playing a role in the election, and then ban anyone who has complained about the evils of the southern "black voter bloc".

That last category would turn this site into the admins talking to each other.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you for this diary (2.00 / 3)

jerome - i wrote about Boehlert's piece several times...  the fourth estate has failed.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:33:06 AM EST

Actually, Mark Penn failed (2.00 / 3)

So did Hillary for hiring him.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that the only comment you have? (none / 0)

What, did Mark pick on you in school or something?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:32:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 1)

I'm guessing Penn stole his lunch money.  And dinner money, dessert money, snack money...


by therealdeal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 2)

Like he stole everyone else's money and provided very little work/knowledge/service for his wages?


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:14:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did you just get here? (2.00 / 1)

He actually has a lot of comments on this thread.  But one line comments tend to attract one line rejoinders.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:11:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 3)

Somebody will write a book about the failings of this Mark Penn fellow in this campaign, and it won't be very humorous.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that the only comment you have? (2.00 / 2)

...but it will be 9,852 pages of very tiny print.


by Ray Radlein on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:17:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reiterating the Obvious--Party LOST!! (2.00 / 3)

Every example of a nomination fight, the other party wins.

So you want McCain to win in the fall?


by Regenman on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:34:20 AM EST

Other stats to remember (2.00 / 2)

Ford lost in 76

Carter lost in 80

Mondale's and Clinton's didn't extend to the convention.

remember mondale named his running mate prior the convention, after a series of weekend interviews at his in minnesota.

etc.

ps Hillary is a victim


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:34:27 AM EST

Bitch? WTF? (2.00 / 3)

Can I troll rate this post?

I think "when will the bitch quit?" would be TR'ed if it appeared in any of the comments.

This paranoid worldview from the Clintons I could respect. I mean they had the corporate media doing a virtual thumb through their underwear drawers when they were in the White House. But of course this was before Hillary made nice with Murdoch and Scaife. That boggled the mind.

Last cycle Kucinich ran all the way to the convention. As have many others in the past. And they were roundly ignored. I think you are confusing "you should quit" with "she has no chance" from media commentators. However if you want to do a pile-on on how crappy both of the candidates have been treated by the celebrity journalist corporate press I will join on in.

But whatever. The "THIS IS GOOD NEWS!....FOR HILLARY!!!" mentality will continue to prevail for the forseeable future in Jerome's posts.  


by wengler on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:36:35 AM EST

yeah - what about Huckabee (2.00 / 5)

the media called the race over after Romney dropped out, and the Huck needed 80 or something percent of the remaining delegates to win.  

where they wrong to call it over?

In the end, this is simply academic.  Hillary is broke.  Flat broke.  Her campaign bus won't move without any gas, even if she passed a gas tax cut.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:40:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bitch? WTF? (2.00 / 4)

Totally agree. Suggesting that Obama supporters are sexist is as bad as suggesting that Clinton supporters are racist.


by Jonmac on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oops I forgot about chicago 1968 (2.00 / 4)

the candidate during the convention, in late august 1968.

Nixon won.

He invaded Cambodia.

He committed a series of political crimes.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:36:36 AM EST

Jasper Lamar Crabb (none / 0)

Your sig line is intriguing but it seems inaccurate.  Can we get an explanation?

IMO, one can make a case that Chinatown is the greatest film ever made.


Our Moment Is Now
by mboehm on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jasper Lamar Crabb (none / 0)

Read several hundred comments on this blog and you'll feel just like Faye Dunaway, shot in the back of the head. I should know.

And while Chinatown is a mind-altering film, I'm not sure it can compete with Vertigo for top honors. In America, twisted sex always tops politics.

Or is that the same thing?


by Rationalisto on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)


by Piuma on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:38:50 AM EST

Re: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Not bad, but i think this video below is better.  ;-)

Here is whats happening now on the state of the race...


by Avandi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Can't we all just agree (none / 0)

that Hillary should be the nominee and put the nation out of its misery?

Bill owes her that, at least.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:48:38 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 4)

"Clinton is being held to a different standard than virtually any other candidate in history," wrote Steven Stark in the Boston Phoenix. "When Clinton is simply doing what everyone else has always done, she's constantly attacked as an obsessed and crazed egomaniac, bent on self-aggrandizement at the expense of her party."

WRONG.  Mike Huckabee was treated the same way, both by the press, who gave him no realistic chance, and by McCain, who said that "he can campaign as long as he wants".

And that's just this year.


by Mostly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:54:37 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

the ones asking "when will the bitch quit", would have been making the same asinine arguments on behalf of Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, and Clinton, back then too... right.

Your ugly tone aside, the arguments for her to drop out are not asinine.  The SD's have made it very clear that there will be no battle at the convention this year.  It's also been made clear that she can continue to run as long as she stops the unfair attacks on the likely nominee.  

Three more weeks.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:56:39 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (1.50 / 4)

Oh, so Hillary's allowed to run as long as she doesn't criticize the man in the race.

What a convenient world you long to live in.


by Little Otter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

You can try to make this about gender if you want, but it has nothing to do with that.  When a person has no likely path to the nomination it is not acceptable to continue to attack the likely nominee.  Jeez.  Even Huckabee knew that.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

Hilary is "allowed" to do whatever she wants. But the risk is damaging her reputation, that of her husband, the chances of Obama winning in November, and the Democratic party as a whole. You wouldn't want that.

Or, would you?


by Rationalisto on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Are you actually comment on whether or not HRC should stop attacking the presumptive nominee, or is this another lame attempt to accuse someone of sexism?


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 8)

What do Gerald Ford in 1976, Jimmy Carter in 1980, Walter Mondale in 1984 and George H.W. Bush in 1992 have in common? Convention fights (the last four serious ones at the convention I can remember, or at least four of the most serious ones in recent memory). What else do they have in common? They all lost in the general election. How about McGovern in '72 or Humphrey in '68? While there might not be a causation between a convention fight and a party's loss (there could and were other factors that played large rolls in the losses mentioned that went beyond the convention fights for sure), there certainly has been a correlation between the two. It's for that reason that a lot of folks think it's in the Democrats' best interest to get this fight over before Denver and not at Denver.


Blogging here @ MyDD.com. Twittering @jonathanhsinger.
by Jonathan Singer on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:58:40 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Thank you for commenting on this Jonathan, and excellent comment.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Or (none / 0)

it could be the more obvious, that those folks were the losing candidates in a losing year for their party... I find it rather hard to make the correlation between a nomination decided at a convention and a losing result for the victor at the convention.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:51:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Or (none / 0)

The correlation is very clear: fight at convention = loss for party.

This is not an opinion, just stating the obvious


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How (none / 0)

everyone states this like its fact, but its really just an assumption. In all the instances Singer mentions, the candidate that lost was probably destined to lose, so how on earth does it have anything to do with what happens at the convention? Please, show me the evidence not the conjecture.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How (none / 0)

Like I said, I was stating the obvious. You need to check the definition of correlation. This is exactly like saying "No one every wins the presidency without winning Ohio..." or "You have to win Minnesota to win the presidency..." or any such thing.

If you want an opinion on the matter to argue with me over, I think Senator Clinton can go to the convention all she wants, she tone it down a bit.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you are tired (none / 0)

I wrote conjecture, not correlation... Other than that, your post made no sense to me and certainly didn't provide me with any evidence that shows convention fights lead to losing general election.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh wait! (none / 0)

I did write correlation up thread. However, I got the definition right- J. Singer was trying to point to a correlation and I said I found it hard to make that correlation. I have a dictionary if you would like me to share the definition with you?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No thanks, I'm good (none / 0)

In regards to your evidence, there is none, there is correlation. It's not scientific, yet, it's still a correlation. Which is the point I was trying to make until you started asking for evidence for a point I was not trying to prove. And, I am tired, but that's when I shine


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever (none / 0)

you said it was a fact. Facts need evidence. Other wise, its conjecture. And yes, even correlations need some sort of evidence to prove a... wait for it... relation. I.e. how the hell are the two related!
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:04:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whatever (2.00 / 1)

I enter room. Bucket falls on my head. I enter room again. Bucket falls on my head. I enter room yet another time. Bucket, again, falls on my head. I enter room a fourth bloody time, and the damn bucket lands on my head.

There is a correlation between yours truly entering the room and an ouch that ensues.

That's all I was saying. It is a fact that there is a correlation. You said there wasn't. I said there was. There still is.


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I see what you are saying (none / 0)

you are saying that a bucket is resting on the top of the door. Now, if you can show me the same connector between losing in the general election and a covention floor fight... Basically, where is the door? What is the door? What is the connector? With out it, it remains conjecture.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

42 (2.00 / 1)


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:18:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Jonathan Singer (2.00 / 1)

for being the voice of reason here.

I've appreciated much of your stuff in the past.


by tecampbell on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:14:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We have the same media as 1992? (2.00 / 1)

Things change over time?
I really did not know that.
I guess I was wrong when I thought the Media, destroyed Gore, Dean, Carter and Kerry.

The media has been uniquely after Clinton.  

The endless coverage of Wright and Bitter. As well as promotion of the Flag Pin, NAFTA/Canada and Pledge must have been my own personal nightmare, or reverse psychology on the part of the media.  Smear Obama so people vote against Clinton! The current promotion of the false white voter issue must also be either my personal delusion, or again reverse psychology.
And allowing Clinton to define the experience, policies, and readiness of both herself and her opponent was a brilliant way to undermine her candidacy.

Wait a minute Jerome you have been doing that as well!  Is this some super secret reverse psychology to have me support Obama.  Because damnit, its working! I am on to you now Obama lover! I am going back to kos, where he knows how to support Clinton properly, with reverse psychology!

But in the end I have to say you are right, if the News Media had any integrity or neutrality anymore they would not involve themselves with candidates in this way.  But I disagree that it is unique to Clinton, the media has been an absolute abomination during this election cycle.  But from the News establishments that brought us  the absurdity of the drive to war with Iraq, should we expect any more or less?

Like Jon Stewart said on one of those Political Hack's shows, Your Hurting America....Please stop.  There has been more balanced coverage on The Daily Show, than anything that pretends to be a news organization.  But we should not focus on one issue to reprimand them on, they have shown an inability to report  fairly on anything but the weather.

Warning:Large Portions of this comment may be sarcasm.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:04:38 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

Well we lost all those races.  I guess Jerome Armstrong WANTS us to lose this one too.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:05:59 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (none / 0)

What about Dean? When he did he leave the race?


by Little Otter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:17:12 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Dean stopped campaigning shortly after he lost Iowa.  I still voted for him in Texas though I knew there wasn't a rat's ass chance in hell that he would be the nominee.  I don't remember when he officially endorsed Kerry though.  I want to say it was March or April, but I can't back that up.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

People did call Hart a whiny loser! (2.00 / 4)

I worked for Gary Hart in '84 (my first campaign, loved the experience, still wonder what might have happened if he'd won).  When Hart went to the convention with his plan to gain the nomination by flipping all of the superdelegates, though, people did call him an out-of-touch whiny loser!  And they were right!  Mondale had a lock on the nomination!  All the superdelegates did was prevent a floor fight which wouldn't have affected the outcome.

Mondale, of course, went on to get his ass kicked in the general, and perhaps he would have done better if Hart had withdrawn from the fray one or two months before he did.  The 1984 convention in San Francisco, btw, was the famous one where a woman who was watching appeared on one of the news shows and said, "Why is it that Democrats are so angry"?  Hart was right to run.  He was wrong to drag out the process for as long as he did, and the Dems (and the country) paid the price.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:23:09 AM EST

Seriously, this is bottom of the barrel stuff (2.00 / 3)

Boehlert is wrong. Hillary does not "have a chance to win." This has nothing to do with the media.


by kyle in philly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:29:22 AM EST

Re: Seriously, this is bottom of the barrel stuff (2.00 / 3)

By the way, Jerome, what was your cute acronym back when Mike Huckabee was 'hounded' into dropping out of the Republican race?


by kyle in philly on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

So have we made up a new sexist acronym solely for the purpose of attributing it by insinuation to Obama supporters?


by vinc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:30:13 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Before long, this quote will find it's way into an anti-Obama diary, allegedly said by "the Obama camp".


Unable to rec or rate. But I've got phantom mojos for miles.
by Agent77 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:35:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (none / 0)

Would anyone have a problem with either of the candidates bribing superdelegates?  Not confining this to one candidate.  If poaching delegates is fine, though, why not put a price tag on them?


by IncognitoErgoSum on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:11 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 4)

I want to go on record for this: the cries for Huckabee to drop out were MUCH less forceful than any for Hillary to drop out--that's the bottom line. While some people asked questions, it was talked about only in passing, not anywhere near the blunt force trauma that the MSM is applying for Hill to get out of the race.

Even though Obama is the nominee she has the right and the reason to keep campaigning. No one should tell her otherwise, and I completely support her on her continued campaign. The Clinton campaign is on record with the race ending by June 15th. That is more than enough time for anything to be healed before August and before November. While I have embraced Obama as the nominee, Hillary should not be forced out of the race when her own campaign has stated that the race will be over by June 15th, in just about a month.

And it's my personal opionion that it would make Barack look outright TERRIBLE for Hill to drop out today and then he gets smoked in WV and Kentucky. We talk alot about how McCain only gets 75% of the GOP vote in primaries after the nomination has been decided--how could we say it is a good sign if Obama loses two races in the next two weeks after he gets the nomination himself?


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:48:28 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

not to mention, there IS a way for Hillary to get the nomination, and it is FAR more plausible than either Jerry Brown or Huckabee ever had. They were never close in delegates. Hillary is extremely close. yes it is the super delegates, but they count, and because this is about electability, something Obama may sorely lack, its a very legit case. The media just wants to talk about the "fall of Clinton" and the big ratings story of the "first black President" already. They love Obama so much, yet they want him to lose to a ghost in WV and KY. But I can't wait to see the "presumptive nominee" get wrecked in two states which Hillary could win and get to the white house with.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

I don't think Hillary should drop out before the voting ends on June 3rd.

I do think she needs to stop attacking the likely nominee and focus more on McCain, party unity, and driving issues that are important to her.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:10:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

I agree on that, and I should have included it in the post.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for your comment, zcflint05.  I can't say I agree with you 100%, but you're definitely a voice of unity and moderation on this website.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (1.83 / 6)

Thanks. What I also should have mentioned is that since Obama is going to be our presumptive nominee shortly, I think she should take a more positive upturn in her campaigning. If she does that, this would be a great situation for Dems.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:28:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 5)

I'm sure the Democrats on boss media's side now, the ones asking "when will the bitch quit",...

Hahahahaha. Poor, poor, paranoid Clinton supporters. Clinton lost because all of those young, well-educated, and liberal Obama supporters hate women; nevermind the fact that Hillary consistently wins the demographics most likely to support traditional gender roles: the poor and the elderly. But I'm sure the denizens of West Virginia and Kentucky support Senator Clinton overwhelmingly because they have far more cosmopolitan notions of gender than the people of San Francisco, for instance. Riiiiiight...    

...would have been making the same asinine arguments on behalf of Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, and Clinton, back then too... right.

I wasn't around "back then," but as a matter of both principle and pragmatism, I think that once it becomes clear that the Party has a nominee, the other candidates should promptly suspend their campaigns -- or at the very least, avoid making hyperbolic statements about contentious issues such as race (just to name something completely out of the blue). This perhaps illustrates a level of discipline that our party has very often lacked, but the sooner we end this circular firing-squad, the better.

This will engender a blowback that will come back to bite the Democrats in the GE, if Democratic officials continue to allow the media to stomp on Clinton unabated.

Oh, please. It's not the job of Democratic officials to prevent the media from stomping on Clinton anymore than it's their job to prevent the media from "vetting" Obama -- something that you enthusiastically supported. Besides, Hillary is just so goddamn tough and vetted, what could possibly hurt her? Finally, Senator Clinton's supporters, both on this site and elsewhere, need to learn to recognize the difference between attacks emanating from the media and those coming from other Democrats or the Obama campaign. If by some convoluted-mess of reasoning some Clinton supporters decide to "blow-back" against the Democratic nominee in the fall in order to punish the media, then they will have no one to blame for the result but their own stupidity.  


by RP McMurphy on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:51:43 AM EST

Careful (2.00 / 3)

Don't lump all Clinton supporters into agreeing with this post.  Just as we don't want Jerome to associate Obama supporters with someone who would say WWTBQ, I'm sure there are Clinton supporters who wouldn't want to own this comment either.


by The Distillery on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Careful (2.00 / 1)

Don't lump all Clinton supporters into agreeing with this post.

Good point. For the record, Clinton supporters, my comment was not directed at all of you -- only the folks in agreement with Jerome, who I think is on very specious grounds.


by RP McMurphy on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 6)

Am I the only one here who remembers that Ronald Reagan was mocked in the press for taking things all the way to the convention in 1976? I mean, I can't be the only person here old enough to remember 1976.


by Ray Radlein on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:53:46 AM EST

How is this helping to defeat McCain? (2.00 / 2)

I mean, seriously.  Another four years of Regent University bureaucrats?

Get it together folks... and very soon.


by tecampbell on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:01:11 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 3)

I think examining the media response to previous, similar primary campaign situations could be illuminating.  However, I'm not sure Boehlert's analysis is entirely fair -- as mentioned often in this thread, all of those situations were circumstantially very different.  After 7.5 years of Bush, there's good reason for the interest level to be abnormally high.

But to assume that the media is creating some double standard simply because they have something against Hillary Clinton is absurd.  If you really believe that is the case, perhaps you are too emotionally attached to her campaign to see otherwise.

The media blows the situation out of proportion because it is in their own self interest to do so!  This is our modern media climate.  These people profit from the intensity of the "battle" between these candidates, not to mention the intense interest on the part of the citizenry.

So yeah, the talking heads whip themselves into a frenzy because they're finally doing the math and realizing that there is actually something resembling inevitability on the part of Obama's campaign.  Much as they did when they ran non-stop Rev. Wright inanities.  It's not that they sought maliciously to take down Obama's candidacy.  It's that they benefit from all the heated chatter.

All the hand-wringing about "when will she drop out?" because "she's going to hurt the party" is ultimately going to seem rather pointless.  At some point, she will drop out, and typical American voters (who do NOT follow every superdelegate addition like they're in some kind of fantasy politics league) are going to wake up to a fairly obvious general election choice.  

The incredible number of newly registered Democrats out there should have no problem seeing McCain for what he is and Obama as the superior choice on every issue of substance.


"I am like a Rorschach test...even if people find me disappointing ultimately, they might gain something." -Barack Obama
by tastycakes on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:10:56 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 5)

Does anyone else see the irony in the side bar advertisements for the book entitled "Heads in the sand" on this website?


by routerdude on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:16:39 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Obama supporters: for a moment let's put aside these arguments about whether or not Clinton should stay in the race, or the historical comparisons to other races.

Do you think the media taking such an active role in this is an example of good media ethics?  Do you think this will help your candidate?


by therealdeal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:21:12 AM EST

The MSMedia (2.00 / 3)

The MSMedia has played various roles at different stages of this primary.  Originally, the MSM set up HRC as inevitable.  They then took some interest in having three favorite Dems going after each other.  Then it was the horserace, which gained even more viewers.

HRC's crying, Bill's rants, Obama's big rallies played their part.

Super Tuesday being a draw left them scrambling, followed by the Obamafest of late Feb.  With March came the kitchen sink, and the MSM spent much of the next two months spearheading innuendo about Obama.

Now that Obama survived the MSM onslaught you want to pretend that the MSM is unfair for stating the obvious?


by tecampbell on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The MSMedia (2.00 / 2)

I think almost all unaffiliated observers would agree that Obama has gotten a very comfortable ride from the media, one debate notwithstanding. The only person in recent memory who's been more of a media darling is John McCain.

But even granting what you said, wasn't the media wrong to focus on all those things? And the media is wrong now for deciding when the race is over.

Their job is to report news, not make it.

As Democrats, we need to learn to never think the media is well-behaved. Remember what they did to Al Gore, and how they coddled George W. Bush. In fact, it was their premature call of Florida for Bush that made it seem as if Gore was trying to steal Florida away.


by OrangeFur on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The MSMedia (2.00 / 1)

Are you an unaffiliated observer?

Just asking.

I know Republicans who were sickened by the daily Rev Wright slimefest in the MSM.

For you to pretend that the MSM favors Obama?

feh.


by tecampbell on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The MSMedia (none / 0)

I think the media coverage has been deplorable over the entire campaign, and unfair to both candidates at times, though I'd say Clinton has gotten the worst of it overall.

Now, how about answering my question?


by therealdeal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The MSMedia (2.00 / 1)

The MSM has ethics?  Now that would be news.

After two months of daily MSM Obama bashing your attempt to imply that the MSM favors Obama is feeble at best.

There are these things called tea leaves... even the MSM can read them.


by tecampbell on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:10:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The MSMedia (2.00 / 1)

Oh for heaven's sake. The MSM has bashed Obama no more than it has bashed Hillary. This article is not about who the winner is in the "I been bashed" competition anyway. It is about a historical double-standard and has nothing to do with Obama himself. What is your problem? If your guy is really winning, you would look a bit more gracious by stopping the whining.

After all it's the winning side that should do the healing.


by bently2 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:01:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 5)

Do you think the media taking such an active role in this is an example of good media ethics?  Do you think this will help your candidate?

I think that Jerome and other Clinton supporters have lost sight of the difference between a descriptive and a normative statement. The media's job is to make descriptive statements. The fact that the race for the Democratic nomination is essentially over is a descriptive statement. In contrast, 'Hillary Clinton should drop out' is a normative statement. Since last Tuesday, I've heard quite a lot of the former but very little of the latter -- at least from purportedly-objective media sources. It might be helpful if Clinton supporters could add some specifics. What ostensibly-unbiased media source has called for Senator Clinton to end her quest for the nomination?


by RP McMurphy on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:49:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

The problem is the first statement, while probable, is not certain. This leads to people making the second statement. Also, I also think that Jerome is including opinion writers in his statement.

As Democrats, we should remember the catastrophic effect the media's early call for Florida had in 2000. As soon as they did that, Bush became the presumptive president, and the Democrats became the ones trying to overturn the results of an election. Had they waited for the results instead of trying to guess what they were going to be, things might have been a lot different.


by OrangeFur on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:56:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems (2.00 / 1)

No, it's certain, inasmuch as anything in politics can ever be "certain."

Obama has to be eaten by a bear to lose at this point.  The only way that Senator Clinton can win at this point is for the superdelegates to do the one thing they are showing no interest in doing, and have been saying they flat out WILL NOT DO, which is to have the superdelegates break in a different direction than the elected delegates and voters did.

Her only hope is that the superdelegates will all commit political suicide for her.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:28:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

Keep whipping up that indignation, Jerome.

Just make sure to include a link to donate.

Because I assure you, Hillary is paying herself back first.


by DeskHack on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:29:33 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (1.66 / 3)

You make excellent points.Remember most people hear do not read the posts before commenting and you are not talking to very rational pople.

Actually the media started calling Hillary to drop out after Iowa. I have no doubt that the media has assumed the role of party bosses in this election. It took almost 8 years for the idiot media to accept what they did to Al Gore.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:42:33 AM EST

WWTBQ? (none / 0)

Jerome are you sure it was Hillary your subconscious was referring to as you were writing this post?


by TMP on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:46:01 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

Of course, what the media wants is for everyone to overlook and be distracted from what we've recently learned about them. They have all been co-opted by the Pentagon's propaganda program, providing military analysis of the goings on in Iraq, Afganistan, Guantanamo, etc. Its all been a sham and the media is in deep. We now know that ALL of the talking heads have been complicit. CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC. I even have my doubts aboutpublic broadcasting as they have paraded these same analyst's comments on the success of Bush's military mis-adventures and the danger of whats ahead. How come we are still listening to these fools. Why does anybody trust the media now.


by glennmcgahee on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:14:43 AM EST

If this happens... (none / 0)

It would be the #1 reason I leave the democratic party and support McCain. For Obama to believe he can "satisfy" women by sticking another woman on that did not earn it - is completely disloyal and I would leave the party for good.

It would be as if Hillary won and stuck Harold Ford or Patrick Deval on her ticket as VP to "keep the black people happy".

I would for sure quit the party.


by nikkid on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:54:41 AM EST

Re: If this happens... (none / 0)

Claire MCCASKILL or Kathleen SEBELIUS?

Wow. That would be so abhorrent to me, I might have to vote for McCain after all.

Each new scenario gets more nightmarish with this nominee.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

I agree that the press shouldn't ask why Hillary won't quit.

The press should simply ignore her as Obama is doing.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:17:59 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 2)

The "media" has been deplorable this cycle.  They assume that their comments are so very important, but actually they are just sycophants who think they are valuable.  Just like that dry drunk in CNN who is so full of hatred of Clinton that he just can't help himself. Cafferty is such a fool but some just keep listening to his stupid rants because he seems to support Obama, and that is the most important thing to them.

As for me, it seems that half of the democrats are actually voting for someone other than the "presumptive" nominee, so with those odds, it is no wonder that it seems like a long shot that Obama can get all those democrats to support him this fall.  I will not be one of those who will vote for him.  In my opinion, not allowing for the media to sway me, he is just not qualified to actually be president.  The only thing he has going for him is the fact that he is running against McCain who is older than dirt.  But it is really the older voter who elects the president, always has been the case, so he actually has a better chance than some of these Obama supporters think.  Funny how some people want their president to actually have so knowledge of the federal government before they are elected (Bush the exception) selected by the press as I recall, since they trashed Gore relentlessly.

It is a shame that race is injected into this race, but then when you have 91% of all AAs voting for the Black candidate, it is no wonder that white people might just notice that.  

It didn't take Hillary Clinton saying that most whites are voting for her for that to be the truth.  Most blacks are after all voting for Obama.

But that is not the reason I'm not inclined to vote for him.  No it is because he doesn't have the knowledge to be president.  He could get the knowledge but he doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who thinks he needs the actual knowledge, that is why his campaign is so vague, he doesn't have good command of the facts.


democrat voter
by democrat voter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:36:21 AM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (2.00 / 1)

You call yourself "Democrat Voter" but you won't consider voting for Obama?

I understand you might perceive Obama to be less qualified on merit than Hillary; that is your right.  

But I also sincerely hope you eventually let go of your perceived double standard -- there is none -- and examine these candidates on the issues, and on how they will govern, how they will represent this country to the world.


"I am like a Rorschach test...even if people find me disappointing ultimately, they might gain something." -Barack Obama
by tastycakes on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:45:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you forgot the S (1.00 / 4)

it's "why won't the stupid bitch quit".

The same old tools are on this thread pretending there is some false equivalence between the real sexism that is going on and the fake racism invented by the Obama campaign.  

And I Love the meme that the super delegates choosing Clinton would be "overturning the election"....when did Obama get 2209 delegates?


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:58:48 AM EST

Frankly, its MSM's atonement (2.00 / 1)

MSM gave Bush, Cheney, the entire Bush Administration -- and especially the Iraq War --  unprecedentedly shirked their civic and moral responsibilities, with journalistic oversight and scrutiny.  

Obama, is a personification of their quest for atonement for their crimes -- he has all the correct qualities they seek and the MSM have jumped all over his bandwagon -- its all so damned blantant and obviously sycophantic.  They are looking for a symbolic coronation and are not happy that a stingy group of voters, and a candidate who will not quit, keep ruining their head-long rush to put their reprehensible performance under Bush behind them


by dcrolg on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:20:42 PM EST

Re: Frankly, its MSM's atonement (2.00 / 1)

I have read with interest the comments on the years when there was a hard-fought/contested primary season (whether it be dems or repubs).

and then the typical comment - but they lost.

well, yeah.  But what if the nomination had gone to the person who had contested it (the underdog)?  Would that party have lost in the GE?

if you say yes, then contested primaries don't affect the GE.  If you say no, then perhaps the problem is that the weaker candidate was nominated, just because they were ahead.  

something to think about ....or not


by colebiancardi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Frankly, its MSM's atonement (none / 0)

sorry, I meant to post the above comment not as a response to the poster above me, but in-line with the thread.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (none / 0)

It's perhaps an insight into the Mr. Armstrong's mindset that the WWTBQ narrative is so common on this blog. I have never encountered it in my day-to-day political discussions with friends, relatives, neighbors, and coworkers. Some of them most certainly do think that Senator Clinton ought to concede; none of them calls her a "bitch".

If the tables were turned, would be be reading ironic references to WWTNQ on othe blogs? I hope not. And I hope we don't get to test that speculation.


by joeldanwalls on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:17:20 PM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (none / 0)

We make much of the lobbyists in this Counry and how they attempt to sway legislation. We never, it seems, recognize the Media as probably the most powerful of all lobbyists. They hold a powerful position in society with the use of written, spoken and televised information that purports to be "fair and balanced" but really is the selfish interest of attracting viewers and ad money. Most of the "talking heads" are hired to air what the candidate, politician etc "should do". It has a hell of an impact on what we think about people in the news and is about as far as you can get from the real issues of this Country. Listen this weekend and hear all the things Obama, Clinton and McCain "should do". Who is running this Country anyway?


by fillphil on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:29:08 PM EST

Why they want Clinton to quit (none / 0)

It's because she's so close. Despite the party drama, there's not a lot of concern about someone who's 1400 delegates behind going to the convention. "Presumptive nominee" isn't much of a presumption that that point, barring accidental death.

On the other hand, Obama and Clinton are extremely close. With FL and MI involved, they are potentially  a hair's breadth apart. And yet, anything that results in Clinton winning at this point is something that she can still take advantage of if she drops out now. She can quit, campaign for Obama, yield the nomination to him...

We can see how the last few races play out, but it seems unlikely she will win "legimately". Her best case scenario will have her behind 10-20 delegates, and that's only if MI/FL are seated as is, which would be pretty unfair to Obama. And in any other scenario other than that most narrow one, her winning requires a huge superdelegate overturning of the vote, which basically guarantees failure in the Fall.

Which leads us to the problem - if it IS that close, then the MI and FL issue is a big issue. They might not be fully seated as is, and that hurts our chances in 2 key swing states. I don't give Obama great odds in Florida, but I'd say he's pretty favored to win MI, and it's an important state for him to win. If a bunch of Clinton supporters feel she would have won except for MI/FL, that hurts us in the fall. So quixotically, the better she does now the worse position we're in in the fall.

So in short, the only nomination fight where the second place finisher dropping out is really important IS the ones that are closest.


by mattw on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST

WTF - that's all ancient history (none / 0)

And I say this as someone who was old enough to vote in 1972.  The notion that the MSM arbitrarily changed its standards between 1984 and now is just plain stupid.

People change over time, institutions change over time, reality changes over time.  If you changed your mind about something important for no apparent reason between yesterday and today, it suggests there ain't much 'there' there inside you.  But if you changed your mind about something important, sometime over a 24-year period when nobody was paying attention, the fact that you never spelled out your reasons doesn't mean you didn't have good ones.

And even if they weren't, the 'you' in this case is a rather large collection of people.  So they're in a different place now than they were in 1984.  BFD.


by RT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:06:43 PM EST

Re: New (& Old) media to dems: WWTBQ (none / 0)

It's called male privilege. The world unfortunately revolves around men. I'm one myself and I understand that I get it easy.


by neverfox on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:34:39 PM EST


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