Huge Hillary Hate, huh?

Hello all,

This diary is an attempt to explain, without anger, the reasons why some Obama supporters may feel so angry at the Clinton campaign, and why they may have felt that for a long time.

This diary is meant to explain and NOT to justify. I am not asserting that these complaints are necessarily valid, and I'm not trying to change your opinion of Clinton if you support her.

Instead, my goal is to give you some context for the hurtful comments that are leveled today and have been leveled in the past by Obama supporters. Many times, the comments are not seen as justified by the writer because of the thread, but instead because of past grievances such as these. For example, an Obama supporter might react strongly to seating Florida as is because of the way Clinton rejected caucus results. So with said, I hope to provide some mutual understanding.

I am not going to pretend that I am not guilty of reacting with anger. If anyone e-mails, I can forward you my own mini-rant against Clinton tactics. However, it's not constructive to my diary today, so I won't quote it.

These issues may be legit or may NOT be legit. The fact remains, though, that for many Obama supporters, they have caused alarm and concern, justified or not. I hope to promote mutual understanding with this dairy - I AM NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT HER OR HIM, I'm just wanting to share this information with context and without one liners.

With that said, let's get to some of them.

#1 - Inevitability

Not a single vote had been cast, and yet the race was being declared close to over before it begun. No matter how it looked, this was the worst moment for the Obama campaign (heard from a mid-level source). For supporters of others, this seemed arrogant.

#2 - "Leaves Out"

Clinton and surrogates both described Obama's healthcare plan as leaving 15 million people out. There was a mailer that showed 7 people, asking "Which one will Obama leave out of his healthcare plan?" There is a legitimate discussion to be had on healthcare, such as regarding capped premiums. However, this phrasing felt inaccurate and dishonest - a lack of mandates doesn't deny coverage, which is what "leaving out" implies. Obama supporters didn't like how the truth seemed twisted, and how

#3 - Bob Johnson

After Johnson talked about Obama "doing something in the neighborhood, I won't say what he was doing," - CLEARLY describing Obama's drug use, the campaign put out an outright denial, stating the Johnson was referring to Obama's community organizing.

#4 - Failure to concede

Clinton chose not to pay tribute to some Obama wins, which seemed  disrespectful. Obama supporters, feeling slighted, were more willing to slight Clinton in response for her lack of graciousness in refusing to concede certain contests.

#5 - Abortion

I know that the present votes are something to consider as far as electibility, but Obama supporters were incensed with some Clinton mailers saying Obama was weak on choice. They even inspired the former president of Chicago NOW to switch her support, because she felt the attacks were plainly untrue. We felt that this wasn't an issue for discussion, and that Clinton was attacking on an issue that didn't merit it.

#6 - Voting Present

A present vote in IL means the same thing as a "No" vote, but it is generally used used to convey "unresolved worries," and "a willingness to compromise on the issue if not the exact bill, to show disapproval for one aspect of the bill, to question the constitutionality of the bill, to strengthen the bill."

However, we felt that Clinton and her supporters twisted the issue to reflect weakness in Obama's leadership, when his votes were on bills he felt unproven, unconstitutional, unfinished, or "on a bill to amend the School Code by requiring public school teachers to teach pupils discipline and respect for others," for goodness sake. We didn't see people who examined such things taking the time to examine his votes, but rather making sweeping judgments without regard for how dumb a bill requiring "teaching respect" was. There is a question of electibility here, but we felt it was a cheap argument without substance.

#7 - Certain States Count

Obama supporters felt that Clinton was ignoring her defeats in many states by inventing new metrics, and ignoring the will of many voters by saying that some states counted more than others. We were also unhappy with the comparisons to the general election - primary results do not necessarily correlate to GE votes, such as in Michigan.

I would be honored if a Clinton supporter could post a similar list, and this is by no means exhaustive. Again, I don't want to make you change your support - I want you to hear where Obama supporters are coming from, especially those that seem angry.

This is probably going to inspire some intense reaction, and I don't have a lot of time to comment tonight. I hope everyone can stay civil, and act as adults. I just want to explain, and I hope we can hear each other out.

Thank you.



Display:


Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 3)

This diary might be a giant mistake. We'll see.


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:37:25 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

There are lots of other meta diaries about insults etc. and I don't think yours should be picked on.

Mind you, I've just had my rec'cing, mojoing and other privileges arbitrarily removed, and the top rec list diary Dear Jerome has been booted from the list..

So the thought police are still active and Obama supporters still survive on a whim here.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

Thank you for this diary. Even though I disagree on a few points, it's important that if we want to get unified as Democrats behind our nominee, we understand why we are angry at each other and move past it. Rec'd.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:39:13 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

These diaries are not helpful, for they only add insult to injury. In a sense, the only bright side to this nominating process if Obama wins is that I'll just disingage from the political storyline. So, I will not have to send my money anymore, since at that time Hillary will be out of the race. She's the only candidate that I'd send money to anyway at this point.


by Check077 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Healthcare. IMO, 15 million is WAY TOO LOW (2.00 / 1)

Okay, this is something I want to comment on. Here is the reason many think Obama is lying on healthcare. His model doesn't make sense, because it relies on something that could not possibly happen, which is insurance companies selling LOTS of insurance AT A LOSS out of the goodness of their hearts. The 15 million figure is also based on outdated levels of people insured through work, but the fact of the matter is that the percentage of uninsured is already 40 percent and Obama, by trying to force the insurance companies to cover everyone who asks for it, IF THEY CAN PAY, is going to increase the price of insurance for healthy people somewhat, perhaps quite a bit, because they WONT BE ABLE TO ASK WHAT THEY WANT without being burned at the stake.. Say the amount they might want to charge someone with cancer for COMPREHENSIVE insurance is $3500 a month, without pharmacy coverage (some cancer drugs can cost >$1,000 a DOSE) but they bow to public pressure and only charge $3000, they will try to make that money up somewhere else. The same thing goes with the change Obama made to his website that says that 'they will have to cover everybody who asks for it, without discriminating by health status'. That is the most blatant of lies, because obviously, when someone who owns a company goes shopping for insurance, they DO charge them by the health status of their employees (which Obama admits) If Obama gave people the option of buying their own insurance for $1000 a month when a company with five employees in which one has cancer might have to pay $3000 per employee per month, wouldn't that company just dump everyone and tell them to buy insurance on their own? That is just one of MANY areas where Obama's health plan doesn't make sense financially. However, almost nobody who has not been through this HELL understands it. Lots of healthcare economists understand it, but they typically HAVE insurance and DON'T have chronic conditions, and they also want to see Obama win in November so they are not bringing it up. However, those of us WITH chronic conditions ARE bringing it up because we are DESPERATE to see HILLARY with her salary cap win, because OTHERWISE, WE and Millions of Obama's own supporters, probably will CONTINUE to NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD HEALTHCARE INDEFINITELY.

Please read some of the diaries I have written (yes, I know they are scattered, but try to see through that to what I am saying and especially FOLLOW THE LINKS I HAVE POSTED)

On healthcare, Obama is promoting a situation that is geared towards helping businesses insure their existing, healthy employees. Its NOT going to help the poor, the chronically ill or the poor very much at all. Yes, maybe a little bit but compared to Hillary it will be THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS LESS for ALL LOW INCOME PEOPLE. The Other HUGE issue is UNCOVERED COSTS AND COST SHIFTING.. Cost shifting will continue under Obama because he buys into the lie that to make 'insurance' cheaper you have it cover less AND COVER THAT UP BY GIVING PEOPLE 'CHOICE'..

'Consumer driven healthcare' its called and it results in people NOT GETTING CARE THEY NEED BECAUSE IT STILL COSTS TOO MUCH..

Every opportunity they get they TAKE YOUR MONEY.. Choice, in this case is their 'In'.

Standardization is good.. Trust Hillary on this one, she knows MUCH more about this than Obama. And what Obama knows is either wrong, really wrong, or a LIE.

With all the experts in his camp, I guarantee you, its the second one.

FOLLOW THE LINKS IN MY DIARIES..


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oops.. I meant '40 million UNINSURED' (none / 0)

Probably another 100 million or MORE Underinsured..

When was the last time your read your health insurance policy.. read it..

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/healthcare/ survey/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/us/pol itics/28clinton.html

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_pri nt/SB119681696156513818.html

http://www.mydd.com/user/architek

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_repor ts/health2008dr.cfm?DR_ID=51817

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/health_cast /hcast_index.cfm?display=detail&hc=2 532
(scroll down to keynote)

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/l a-fi-healthinsure-sg,1,3627886.storygall ery
(PROBLEM inherent to Obama's risk pricing model, notice how they say 'it lowers rates')


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

I'm sorry you feel insulted. That was not my point, and I apologize. I'll be trying to do one on behalf on Clinton supporters as well for fairness's sake.


by Falsehood on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:20:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

Great diary falsehood I am hoping for a UNITED Democratic party.  


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:44:05 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

Not to mention the 3am ad, and the comment by Hillary that she and John McCain was qualified to be CIC, but not Obama.  Also, her ad showing Osama Bin Laden, her mentioning Farakhan for no reason at the last debate.  And last but not least Hillary's statement that only she can get white hard working americans support.  I rest my case.


by Spanky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:46:42 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

#1 - Inevitability

the inevitability meme was created by the MSM.  And after Iowa, what was the meme then?  Hillary was out.  And after NH, the MSM was talking about the Bradley Effect and smearing the northeast as racists.

#2 - "Leaves Out"

this was in direct response to Obama's attack on Hillary's healthcare plan, which stated the republican attack from the 1990's - that she would garnish your wages, whether or not you could afford it.  Even to the extent of ripping the Harold & Louise couple.  Also, everyone today could get covered if they wanted to.  But they can't, due to the premiums.  So, Obama's plan, imho, is no different than what we have today.

#3 - Bob Johnson
that was horrific - I agree.  

#4 - Failure to concede
failure to concede - when?  Everytime I watched the races, Hillary always gave congrats to Obama. The one time I didn't see that is when the MSM cut away from her speech to Obama's.  He actually broke the cardinal rule about stepping on another candidate's speech.  I have never seen Hillary interrupt Obama's speeches.

#5 - Abortion
I never had a problem with either candidate and there really wasn't a lot of discussion on this subject - even in MSM.  There is no difference between the two.

#6 - Voting Present

that is a fair attack.  Just as fair as anything else.

#7 - Certain States Count
considering that some states will never go blue, no matter how big the win is, certainly you can understand what she meant by that.  Just as her win in red states don't hold much water for the GE.  Her premise is about the states that have historically swung.  To ignore history just because you want your candidate to win the primary, but could lose the GE, is a valid argument to make.
 


by colebiancardi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:48:03 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

#4 - Failure to concede
failure to concede - when?  Everytime I watched the races, Hillary always gave congrats to Obama. The one time I didn't see that is when the MSM cut away from her speech to Obama's.  He actually broke the cardinal rule about stepping on another candidate's speech.  I have never seen Hillary interrupt Obama's speeches.

He cut into her speech because he spoke on schedule. She changed her time (the reason for that can be speculated upon). And you usually congratulate your opponent in the beginning of the speech anyways. She didn't.

#5 - Abortion
I never had a problem with either candidate and there really wasn't a lot of discussion on this subject - even in MSM.  There is no difference between the two.

It's not about their positions on abortion. They have the same position. It's about the mailers Hillary sent out in NH saying Barack could not be trusted to be pro choice. Which was a lie.

#6 - Voting Present

that is a fair attack.  Just as fair as anything else.

It's a fair attack if you don't understand the context and reasoning behind it. The diarist explained what voting present in the IL legislature means. It doesn't mean not taking a position. See here for more details.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

#6 - your link led to an op-ed which was written by and I quote "Earlier editions of this article failed to disclose that the author serves as an informal adviser to the Obama campaign"

#4 - so, the fact she didn't give congrats at the beginning of the speech pisses you off?

#5 - and Obama has lied on his flyers as well - stating that Hillary said that NAFTA was a boon, when she never stated that.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

#6 - Does that matter? Did you read the article? Is it not true?

#4 - Just stating that she didn't congratulate her opponent.

#5 - Hillary did say "NAFTA's proving its worth".


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

Fair attacks can still anger people.


by Falsehood on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:19:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

What I didn't like was all the CiC nonsense, which they rolled out at the exact same time as they were suggesting that maybe Obama could be their VP.  Then, when the press had to explain to them that those two sales jobs were completely contradictory, they said (I believe it was Wolfson) that Obama may be able to pass the CiC test by around August, in time to be on the ticket but after Clinton became the nominee.  That whole series of events came across as if they thought their intended audience was very stupid.


by rfahey22 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:51:20 PM EST

what bothered me was her endorsement of McSame (2.00 / 2)

he crossed the CiC threshold, but Obama has not.

Go negative on Obama all you want (that's politics), but don't help out the other party by saying McCain is better.  that's worse than Nader saying "there's no difference btwn Bush and Gore."


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what bothered me was her endorsement of (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, also Bill happened to praise McCain's stances on the environment and torture, the latter of which he's clearly been hypocritical on.


by rfahey22 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:57:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

I had forgotten about that, but you are correct to bring it up.


by Falsehood on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:17:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

Everything you say may be true -
At least in the minds of Obama supporters.
But the reality is that YOU need Clinton supporters to support Obama in the general election - not vice versa.  So, I would suggest that you put your wines in the wine cellar ASAP.  That is - if you want Obama to win in November.
by johnnygunn on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:02:32 PM EST

We all care too much about (2.00 / 1)

the things Dems care about, not to come together strongly in the fall.

In 2004 I was a passionate Dean supporter who never liked John Kerry. But over the course of the summer I came to have some respect for him, donated to his campaign, and volunteered some time.

I still never really came to like John Kerry. But it didn't matter. He would have made an excellent President, and it's a shame this country instead decided to re-elect George Bush.


Clinton Democrats care about the same things I do, most importantly beating John McCain.
by TrueBlueCT on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:04:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

That is an excellent point. I suppose I was seeking some forgiveness from Clinton supporters for the vitrol Obama supporters have given.


by Falsehood on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:17:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

you can feel as angry as you wish, for any number of real & imagined reasons.

i thought it was over, yet the deprecations keep coming.

interesting, and revealing.

your selective use of dubious facts is about as convincing as is the new politics hash you are selling.

new politics my ass


by blackflag on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:04:51 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

I am not trying to change minds - these are OLD NEWS. Yet, they are still relevant to how Obama supporters feel about Clinton.


by Falsehood on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 1)

I think the time to explain is over; doesn't matter how the diary is worded, the other side will not accept the explanations!!

We ALL need to come together and stop re-hashing.  Let the past be water under the bridge.

Let's unite against McCain, otherwise he'll give us something real to whine about.

When we have a Democratic President, then we can go back and explain.  But for now, lets focus on McCain, our common enemy.


by hienmango on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:15:22 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

I have a different perspective on a lot of that, but I can understand why you interpreted things the way you did -- and I suppose your interpretation is as valid as mine. Recommended because we need a little more communication and mutual understanding around here.


Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:25:13 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

Thank you. I understand your disagreement - I just hope that you can understand why some people react with such anger sometimes.


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

7 more reasons why I should not vote for BO! (none / 0)

Thanks for your Diary


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:32:43 PM EST

Re: 7 more reasons why I should not vote for BO! (none / 0)

You shouldn't vote for Obama because Hillary was inevitable..... right.

Did you take the time to read it?


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (2.00 / 2)

I'm pissed off at her for failing to fight for us Michigan voters at all, then pretending she thinks we are just the gravest concern...once she realized she needed us. I personally AGREE with penalties for Michigan pulling it's primary up, but she is out there claiming it as a serious disenfranchisement...and yet she said absolutely nothing in our defense until the stones were starting to fall on her candidacy. Not a whit. What is that?


John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.
by terra on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:45:48 PM EST

Politics ain't beanbag (2.00 / 1)

If that stuff upsets you then you better hope Obama isn't the nominee.

BTW - Nothing Hillary has ever done compares to the Obama campaign falsely accusing her of racism.


by myiq2xu on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:56:06 PM EST

Re: Politics ain't beanbag (none / 0)

No one in the Obama campaign has accused her of racism. Sure, people on blogs have. But they are not "the Obama campaign."


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Politics ain't beanbag (none / 0)

I'm upset that a Democrat did this in a primary, and it caused her to lost any chance of support from me. This isn't about me being upset - this is about you understanding why Obama people can be so negative.

And the campaign has NEVER accused her of racism. I'm afraid that you are incorrect.


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

sincere question, you say "A present vote in IL means the same thing as a "No" vote, but it is generally used used to convey "unresolved worries," and "a willingness to compromise on the issue if not the exact bill, to show disapproval for one aspect of the bill, to question the constitutionality of the bill, to strengthen the bill."

how do you know this?  do you have a source or did you work in the state senate?


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:27:48 PM EST

Stateline.org explains the present vote (none / 0)

An explanation of the present vote

The "present" vote in Illinois is sometimes cast by state lawmakers with a conflict of interest who would rather not weigh in on an issue. Other times, members use the option to object to certain parts of a bill, even though they may agree with its overall purpose.

"The `present' vote is used, especially by more thoughtful legislators, not as a means of avoiding taking a position on an issue, but as a means of signaling concerns about an issue," said state Rep. John Fritchey (D), an Obama supporter.

The Land of Lincoln isn't the only state where lawmakers can register their displeasure without actually voting against a bill. Colorado, Delaware, Massachusetts, Missouri and Texas also allow "present" votes or similar options in at least one chamber, according to a recent review of chamber rules by the National Conference of State Legislatures.
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/st ory?contentId=274863


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stateline.org explains the present vote (none / 0)

And another selection from above:

Sometimes using "present" votes is part of a larger strategy.

For example, in what was supposed to be the last night of the legislative session in 2002, the leader of the Senate Democrats said he had been double-crossed on a budget agreement when a major new revenue source was left out. His caucus didn't have enough votes to stop the whole revenue package, which included cigarette tax hikes, and the Democrats agreed to most of the bill anyway.

"I'm going to recommend to the members of this side of the aisle to vote `present' until such a time as we see a total package that's going to balance the budget for the year 2003," state Sen. Emil Jones Jr. (D) told his caucus.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:45:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and the Washington Post adds (none / 0)

Under the rules of the Illinois legislature, a present vote effectively functions as a no vote because only yes votes count toward passage of a bill. Legislators vote "present" rather than "no" for a variety of tactical reasons, including making it more difficult for their political opponents to use their votes against them in campaign advertisements.

"We worked on the 'present' vote strategy with Obama," said Pam Sutherland, chief lobbyist for the Illinois branch of Planned Parenthood, an abortion rights group. "He was willing to vote 'no', and was always going to be a 'no' vote for us."

Sutherland said Planned Parenthood calculated that a 'present' vote by Obama would encourage other senators to cast a similar vote, rather than voting for the legislation. "They were worried about direct mail pieces against them. The more senators voted present, the harder it was to mount an issues campaign against the senator."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-chec ker/2008/02/obamas_voting_record_on_abor ti_1.html


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what say you, canadian gal? n/t (none / 0)


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what say you, canadian gal? n/t (none / 0)

thanks for the info - what does that article say about this?

because it takes affirmative votes to pass legislation in the Illinois Senate, a "present" vote is tantamount to a "no" vote. A "present" vote is generally used to provide political cover for legislators who don't want to be on the record against a bill that they oppose.

While these votes occurred while Obama and the Democrats were in the minority in the Illinois Senate, in the Audacity of Hope (page 130), Obama explained that even as a legislator in the minority, "You must vote yes or no on whatever bill comes up, with the knowledge that it's unlikely to be a compromise that either you or your supporters consider fair and or just."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?tit le=Barack_Obama:voting%22present%22


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:09:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what say you, canadian gal? n/t (none / 0)

Is your point that Obama didn't describe the "present" vote in his book? I think his point was that minorities don't have control of legislation, and therefore often have to make difficult choices when bills have some parts they like and others they don't.

That's different than a bill that seeks to do something good (reduce crime near schools, support discipline, etc,) but has issues.


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

At the rate that Obama supporters are attack Hillary supporters, I'm starting to believe that the rise of a third party is possible. Unfortunately, it will result in the Democratic party splitting up all together. Uh, who would have thought that it would lead to this point. Now, MSM, look at what you have created here? I know you want Hillary supporters and moderate democrats to forgive and give Obama a pass, but this is life and you can not always have your cake and eat it. Hate to be a party crasher! ...And a disgusted one at that....


by Check077 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:16:08 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

Do you feel that this diary attacked Hillary supporters?


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)


#1 - Inevitability

If she wasn't inevitable it wouldn't have been EDWARDS AND OBAMA AND THE 7 dwarves all ganging up on her.

#2 - "Leaves Out"

Obama's plan leaves people out thats a fact.

#3 - Bob Johnson

Obama did drugs thats also a fact.

#4 - Failure to concede

ONLY now should talk of condeding even start.  The MASSIVE bias the media has shown with the concede story is disgusting and I transfer that feeling of disgust to Obama.

#5 - Abortion

Obama didn't take a stand.  How is that my problem?

#6 - Voting Present

Again Obama's campaign has penalized Clinton for her vote regarding the war his cowardise with his vote is fair game.

#7 - Certain States Count

Obama supporters wanted Alaska and other red states we won't win to be factored in more than Florida, Ohio, Pa and other states that will actually make the difference.  I don't care how many GOP voters want Obama, this is the democratic primary and he is behind in the democratic party vote.

And in closing I don't give a hoot what the Obama supporters want to cry about.  I am not voting for them.


by DTaylor on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:01:48 PM EST

Re: Huge Hillary Hate, huh? (none / 0)

I didn't ask for you to defend Clinton - I wanted to show you why some people are bitter. You may not care what "we want to cry about," but how people feel about tactics and strategy matters a great deal - you ignore our opinions at your peril.

You don't have to endorse them, but you should be aware.


by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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