Hillary supporters! Its time to kick some butt! Let's get to work!

Hey guess what? WV, KY, PR- they matter!

That's right- they matter. They will put Hillary over the top in the popular vote if we give her the help that she needs and if we don't give up on her. She isn't going anywhere and neither should we. This is not over until Puerto Rico sings and every last super delegate has had their say- this last bit happens in August, btw!

Right now, if you include Florida and exclude MI and the undemocratic estimates from caucus states, then Hillary is just behind in the popular vote by slightly over 440,000 votes. That's right, just 440,000 votes out of a total of over 40,000,000 million that we should expect from this primary. That's 1%- just 1%. If we include MI and the undemocratic caucus votes, then her chances are even better of capturing the popular vote total. She won't get to the magic number in pledged delegates alone, but you know what? Neither will Obama.

Hillary's big upcoming wins in KY and WV WILL change the narrative- if only to cast more doubt on Obama's electability. To be quite frank, that's probably the only narrative that SDs are concerned about anymore- it is the electability, stupid.

If the polling out of KY and WV holds, then Hillary can get very close to those 440,000 votes in just those two states alone- we need to GOTV and GOTV in a big way. OR will be closer, SD and MT will be closer and then Hillary will finish it all off with a big win in PR. Remember folks, in politics, a week is a year. The narrative will be Hillary's starting Tuesday and we need to help her out.

We need to start, by not giving up on her. Yes, the odds are against her, but she knows, as do we that she is the best candidate to take on the GOP in the fall and she would be the better POTUS. So, let's get to work:

Give her some bread (made from dough) so she doesn't have to run home and bake it herself!

Call her friends, we know she has a lot of them and girls sure do love to talk....

Stand with her!

She IS going to be the next president of the United States!



Display:


Chin up folks (2.00 / 15)

This thing ain't over by a long shot. Get to it!
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:57:25 PM EST

Game over - she's bankrupt (1.12 / 8)

no cash, no gas


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Game over - she's bankrupt (2.00 / 1)

cash did not win PA, TX, OH and IN. You can take your cash and shove it! I do not need to tell you where.


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're right (none / 0)

she's doing on Obama's credit account right now. Fortunately, his supporters get to decide her limit.


by bookish on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Game over - she's bankrupt (none / 0)

Granted cash was only part of what won Texas for Obama, but I like to think that it's because he's the better candidate.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:06:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think the voters (2.00 / 3)

like to have elections bought. At least that's the way it appeared when I vol'd in TX.


by Pacific John on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They also don't like to be ignored! (none / 0)

We need to get our voices heard in the media.  It is time that we tell them that the voters decide, not the pundits and anchors.

This is the first time I can remember the press getting rid of the candidate when the voters don't want them to.

Gallup says this week that 15% want Obama to drop out now. 23% want Hillary to drop out and 60% want them both to continue the campaign to the end.

So who is the media's constituency?  Not the people.

From the way our Congress has acted these last two years, I have no confidence that they will hear us or see their own interest in this election.

We need to make some noise, post some media email and phone lists and do some massive contacting, in addition to having great diaries in hopes that somebody wants to be a journalist again and checkes them out.


by itsadryheat on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:23:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They also don't like to be ignored! (none / 0)

Are you crazy?  The media has done everything they can to keep her in the race because it's good for ratings - the only reason you have seen the narrative change in the last week is that they would lose what little credibility they still have if they lied and said she has a credible chance of winning.  They know she doesn't, her own campaign knows she doesn't, and the supers know she doesn't.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

when Corzine and Bloomberg (2.00 / 2)

fund their own campaigns, men think that is just great - when women do it, men get the vapors.  Hillary is far from bankrupt.  She would be crazy not to fund her own campaign as it needs it.

Afterall things could be worse, she could have outspent her opponent 4:1 in two major swing states and LOST, just like Obama did.


by Molee on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: when Corzine and Bloomberg (none / 0)

She isn't only in debt to herself.  You can have your gender card back.  We won't be needing it.


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Game over - she's bankrupt (none / 0)

HA! now the obma crowd are proud of MONEY being the bottomline in elections!!!! always the same, if my guy does it it's OK then....


by swissffun on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Game over - she's bankrupt (none / 0)

Thanks for the reminder.  

Give it up people!!!

%10.00, $20.00, $50.00, $100.00. Whatever you can spare to pull her through.  Team Obama's strategy is to outspend until she has nothing more.  Don't let that happen!!


by bellarose on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:19:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Game over - she's bankrupt (none / 0)

Heh, sorry for the typo.  I have the flu!!


by bellarose on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey Al - let's make a wager (none / 0)

You're in SF right? I'll bet you $100 she's our nominee. Will pick up my winnings in August somewhere in the city you name the spot.


by catfish1 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:26:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why all the concern Obama folks? (2.00 / 5)

I thought it was in the bag?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (2.00 / 1)

No concern for Obama, linc, just concern for you.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well (2.00 / 1)

at least you will admit to your 'concerning'.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well (2.00 / 1)

Ah. But my concern is led by compassion.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (1.50 / 2)

It is in the bag.  

If Clinton keeps on fighting by making ridiculous arguments like the one you are making then that will  hurt the party.  That is what the concern is about.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You should be more confident (2.00 / 4)

in your candidate's abilities. If he wins the nomination and then loses the general, it will not be Hillary's fault.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This bitterness is blogospheric (2.00 / 1)

He won't lose. Not out there in reality.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The votes are reality (2.00 / 6)

if he doesn't convince rural voters in PA, OH, WV, NC- he is toast. If he can't do that, then he is going to need to find a way to woo FL- I don't see that happening. If he can't do that, he is going to need to find a way to win over Latinos- who really tend to like McCain, btw. I don't see that happening either. So what is it, in all honest? What is Obama's path to victory in November?

That's what electibility is all about.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The votes are reality (2.00 / 1)

You assertions are just that - assertions. Let's wait and see about the GE.

But in the one contest we've had so far - a primary with unprecedented turnout - he's proved very electable. He had no dynastic name recognition. He didn't have the apparatus of the DLC, or the patronage of a former president to back him up. And yet he beat Hillary fair and square.

Though it was a tight run thing because she's a formidable candidate.

He's won/going to win these amazing primaries. Why don't you give him some credit, and when it's all over, come on board and make sure he wins the GE, and that his administration hold up the values you care about?

I really think, with all your talents linc, this will soon be a much better route for your time and energy


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Half, if not more (2.00 / 1)

of that turn out wasn't for him. Dynastic? Give me a break- I am so sick of that bs.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Half, if not more (2.00 / 1)

More than half turned out for Obama

The dynastic thing is not bs. Hillary had name recognition. And for a country that prides itself on being in some way meritocratic, the sequence Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton was never a great selling point for the American dream. Not a big point, but a relevant one from overseas.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And being America (2.00 / 2)

we are more prone to imagery and ads than substance- good point.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Half, if not more (none / 0)

How can it possibly be BS? It wasn't BS when it was Bush 2, and it isn't for Clinton 2.  It's an issue for many people who don't want to return to the divisive atmosphere that pervaded the WJC years, irrespective of all the good that was done.  It's an issue for me, and I know plenty of other feel the same way.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:56:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (1.50 / 2)

I am very confident in Obama's abilities.  He is a freshman Senator that few people had heard of and he beat Clinton when she had every advantage you can name.  He is a very good campaigner/politician.  

The thing that worries me about your bogus argument is that it would be a monumental waste of time, energy and resources for the Democratic party to take it seriously.  If Clinton does make this argument it will be nothing but a waste.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Everytime (2.00 / 1)

you say that- its not just to Clinton- its to her supporters, you realize that don't you?
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Everytime (1.20 / 5)

Of course I do.  

I have no sympathy at all for the dead enders.  I  think they being selfish and hurting our chances in November.  Anyone that stands in the way of a Democrat in the WH after eight years of Bush is someone who I have a problem with.  

If you want to get on Obama's team and help us win this thing in November then we will be glad to have your help.  If you want to make hair splitting arguments that will not convince anyone then you are part of the problem and IMO you don't deserve much in the way of deference.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Concern, concern, concern (2.00 / 1)

duly noted. You must know a lot about Democratic primaries to be soooo concerned! I think you are just gearing up to blame a potential Obama loss on someone, but that's just me- I am merely a deadender- whatever the hell that is.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Concern, concern, concern (1.25 / 4)

There is a lot at stake in November.  We didn't choose Hillary to lead us so she needs to either follow the guy we did chose or get out of the way.

If McCain becomes President and another American City gets wiped off the map by a Hurricane or 4,000 Americans die in another war you are God damed right I am going to blame someone.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um (2.00 / 2)

I chose Hillary- still do.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um (2.00 / 2)

Duly noted.  She won't be on the ballot in November.  I'm sorry, I really am sorry if you're disappointed by this.

I don't enjoy this.  We've got a lot of the same values, I assume.  I'm sure you're a good and decent person, and I'm not spending time on the internet trying to belittle you.

But she's lost.  I'm cool with her staying in through these last six contests.  No reason not to now.

But come on, man.  Most of us picked somebody other than Clinton.  Would you expect us to have agonized to this extent when another candidate won?  Another candidate that would seek to do most of the same things as the one we picked?

Life is full of compromises and imperfections.  Do what you can with the options you've got.  I had to pick between a candidat I didn't really like (Kerry) and one that I thought would inch the world closer and closer to destruction (Bush).

It's a part of life.  Either you'll heal and come to grips with the fact that your candidate just couldn't make it, or you won't.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ugh (1.75 / 4)

whats with the life lessons? Because I support my candidate and you think she should just fold because your campaign and the media says so? Wow- if that's your life lesson, I think I will leave it, thank you very much.

Here is a life lesson for you:

Over confidence is a sure fire way to lose that which you are so confident about.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:50:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ugh (1.40 / 5)

You know, when I try to be decent and your response is to be a total fucking jackass, I get an entirely different life lesson.

Have fun!  


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ugh (2.00 / 1)

I'm thinking you got the response you got, because you're being condescending as well as downright insulting by calling Hillary supporters "dead enders".  What makes it worse is that your candidate hasn't, in fact, won yet.  He cannot get the pledged delegates he needs to claim victory.  The popular vote is trivially different (and may reverse, as the diary suggests, to HRC)--so all this talk of him being the clear choice of the people is bs.  And, the superdelegates can claim to support whomever they want, but they don't cast a vote until the convention.  That's reality.


by slynch on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ugh (2.00 / 1)

I have never, I repeat, NEVER used that phrase.  I absolutely wouldn't call Clinton supporters "dead enders" because it simply sounds too much like what Cheney (or was it Rummy?) said about the "last throes" of the insurgency, something like four years ago.

I didn't say that.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ugh (none / 0)

I've read posts on this and other sites from Obama supporters who claim Hillary Clinton suffered from over confidence starting way back before February. So, I agree with Obama and his supporters that over confidence is the quickest path to them losing in the general election.
by zenful6219 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:31:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK try to win without us. (2.00 / 1)


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:01:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK try to win without us. (2.00 / 1)

Will do.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:11:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK try to win without us. (2.00 / 1)

Are you seriously thinking that Obama could win in November without the Clinton supporters?

An attitude like that guarantees a McCain presidency.


by NJ Liberal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:16:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK try to win without us. (none / 0)

I would hope it doesn't matter what "username: whatever" thinks.

But most of us have been saturated with threats to stay out or vote for McCain, and are beyond the points where we were ever going to be solicitous of threats.


by Jordache on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Delusions of grandeur (none / 0)

So you speak for all Clinton supporters now. That's an awful lofty perch you've climbed onto. I certainly hope you don't fall.


by bookish on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:37:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusions of grandeur (none / 0)

Where did I say i would vote for McCain? There are plenty of other choices!


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who are you responding to? (none / 0)


by bookish on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Delusions of grandeur (none / 0)

That was not a threat at all. I was responding to the person who said "we'll try [to win without you]" which I took to be a sarcastic shot meaning 'we don't need your votes in order to win.'

There's no part of me that would ever vote for McCain. I have stated over and over again on this and other sites that I will work my ass off for whomever is the Democratic nominee.

I can't imagine a justification for a Clinton supporter voting for McCain over Obama, nor can I understand why an Obama supporter would vote for McCain over Clinton. Anyone who voted in a Democratic primary and then say the would rather vote for the Republican candidate is, well, not me.

So, don't be so quick to judge. I didn't say what you thought I said (or, I didn't mean what you thought I meant). OK?


by NJ Liberal on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:29:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No one said you'd vote for McSame (none / 0)

I simply say that it's a rather speculative position for you to take to think that we need the 1% of dead-enders hanging around this site to beat the GOP.

I'm tired of Clinton supporters thinking that they are somehow owed our contrition for their loss. I was as invested in Obama as they are in Clinton, and it could just have easily gone the other way. Regardless, I would be supporting the nominee; not holding it over people's heads that they somehow should show me some deference or risk losing my vote.


by bookish on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No one said you'd vote for McSame (none / 0)

OK, fine. I am not asking for contrition. However, I suggest that Obama supporters (not necessarily you in particular) show respect to Clinton supporters.

We're talking about approximately half of the Democratic party, and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them, as I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Obama supporters if the situation were reversed.

And, if it's really 1% of the voters we're talking about, well, according to recent polls which show a virtual tie between Obama and McCain, I certainly would be fighting hard to retain those Democratic votes.


by NJ Liberal on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll show as much to Clinton supporters (none / 0)

as they show in kind. The times I've gone off on them is when they've made outlandish comments or smears, and I'm not going to get in the practice of holding my tongue for some elusive, transitory definition of party unity.

All those recent polls of support for McSame and Obama of which you speak don't take into account that Obama has been fighting on two fronts for months now. To think that once it's mano-a-mano those numbers will remain favorable in the least to the GOP is to kid oneself. I'd be willing to put my credibility on the line to say that within six weeks of Clinton's retirement from the campaign, Obama will hold a ten point+ lead in head-to-head polling.


by bookish on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:17:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll show as much to Clinton supporters (none / 0)

Right. Sure. It's a lock. Might as well break out the champagne. Bring the troops home today. Bookish has declared victory.

The man's name is McCain, not 'McSame'. Get used to it. An arrogant attitude like yours pretty much guarantees his presidency.


by NJ Liberal on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Quitting is unamerican, freak (none / 0)

"I have no sympathy for all the dead-enders"

A man who tells people to quit is not fit to lead this nation.

France laughed at Kennedy when he said we'd land a man on the moon within the decade. We should of quit, are chances were practically mathematically impossible.


by catfish1 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (2.00 / 3)

Blue Neponset, you telling us that she had every advantage including the media on her side?  Come on, even you can admit the media trashed her from day one, huh? :)  Let's be honest.  Without the media, you're handicapped, and yet she is only 1% behind.  I find that pretty amazing.  


Yes She can! Go Hillary!
by Cassyma on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (2.00 / 1)

BOTH SIDES think the media trashed their candidate.

But let's be real. Hillary had the top PR people and spin doctors. A generation of media people had grown up under the Clinton presidency, and had the ears of senior TV and print executives. The NYT endorsed Hillary. CNN kept calling her the comeback kid.

I think Obama had it pretty easy (because he was new and not expected to win) until early Feb, and then we had four months of Obama bashing. Now the tide has turned... Just my opinion

BUT, assuming your case, given her advantages, Hillary SHOULD have had better media coverage. That's a failure of her campaign. And given that it's all about 'electability' according to Linc, then she's much less electable.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

BOTH SIDES think the media trashed their candidate.

true, but only one side has articles being written (and books in the works) about it actually happening.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:04:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

Oh my gosh... I had forgotten about that tidbit of the 90's... The fourth branch of government was Barnes and Noble, et. al. what with all the books that came out.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

So your argument is that the media is going to prove that the media was in fact anti-Hillary? How's that work, exactly?

Seriously -- the articles that I've seen concentrate on the race through January. No one doubts that Clinton had a disproportionately harder ride through January than anyone else.

However, since she got the "Comeback Kid" label in N.H., the media really has swung hard to her side and/or against Obama. There was a brief cycle of general fairness for about a week in mid-February, another just before Wright came out, and one or two weeks in early April. Aside from that, it's been extremely pro-Clinton and anti-Obama up until the Indiana and North Carolina primaries.

Obama exceeding expectations in both Indiana and North Carolina has set up the most recent swing. Whether it'll stay this way, who can say?


by Texas Gray Wolf on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (2.00 / 1)

is this a serious comment or snark?

http://mediamatters.org/columns/20080430 0001?f=h_column

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/040 8/9718.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-wi lliams/with-clinton-it-would-be_b_96626. html

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/featu res/2008/06/wolcott200806

http://nymag.com/news/imperialcity/46658 /index1.html

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/7/14504 8/7823


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

It's a serious comment. Sorry -- I looked at all of your links, and all it convinces me of is that both sides have some cause to complain. While I understand that you disagree, and that it's possible to pick at isolated bits of media bashing of Clinton post-mid-February (Tuzla, for instance), the media has been full-bore on the attack against Obama with very limited exceptions since mid-February.

For instance, Tuzla took a week to come to full boil. NAFTAgate was front-page news the same day it was alleged. Yet Tuzla was completely true (if not a really huge story), while NAFTAgate was false in pretty much every detail. Wright dominated the media before and after Obama's speech and again late last month.

Despite the ridiculous spin in one of your links, the media never rushed to Obama's defense over Bitter-gate -- in fact, it was just the opposite. We were told over and over and over and over how this was the end, how Obama was hopelessly elitist and, even if he wasn't, no one would ever think otherwise. The media bought into and reported the Clinton-campaign spin on Bittergate hook, line, and sinker. It boggles the mind that someone actually is trying to claim the opposite.

For every "sexism!" claim you care to provide from the media, there's a "racism!" one right back. I don't actually think the sexism (notwishstanding a few really bad moments) has been all that much, nor that the racism (despite a few really bad moments) has been all that much either.

And, for that matter -- you're providing links from, in several cases, the media! You believe them when they tell you that their colleagues have been nice to Obama and nasty to Clinton, while to me, it just says that not only are they being nasty to Obama and playing favorites with Clinton, they're also trying to pretend that they should be being even worse and/or justify their behavior when they do just that.

Not buying the spin, sorry. I've been following this campaign far too obsessively, and I have yet to see any piling on against Clinton that even scratches the surface of how Wright or Bittergate or NAFTAgate were treated. Even the example you cite of the media calls for Clinton to drop out are highly disingenuous - immediately after those started, the rest of the media attacked those calling for her to drop out, and the very source you cite is a clear example of it. Where were the media calls for backing off on Wright? on Bittergate? A month later, maybe. Where are the copious apologies about NAFTAgate that we got when Hospitalgate was proven incorrect?

The very complaining here about news coverage since Indiana and North Carolina proves the point better than anything else can. If the media were really in the tank for Obama in the way you're trying to claim, that's how the news would have been every day. Yet everyone is pointing out what a huge swing this has been. In order for there to be a huge swing, things have to have been markedly different before the swing. They were.

The media's had a clear favorite since mid-February, and that candidate is not Barack Obama. Their interest has been in prolonging the campaign as long as possible, and they've been propping up the candidate who's behind in order to do just that.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (2.00 / 1)

She had a 100 delegate lead before the voting started.  She had a HUGE donor list.  She has an Ex-President as a husband.  She has 100% name recognition.  She had a ton of money before the race started.  Those are the advantages I am talking about.  

I never got the media hates Hillary argument.  If the media is so powerful that they gave the nomination to Obama what do you expect to happen when Hillary runs against McCain?  The press loves McCain more than they love Obama.  If Hillary really lost because of the media then she is going to get her clock cleaned running against "Maverick" McCain.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

For MONTHS all the media said was that Hillary was running a flawless campaign, one that made no mistakes, and could not lose.

You do remember that, right?  It wasn't until she said she was both for, and against, Governor Spitzer's plan to give driver's licenses to illegals that the media ended that narrative.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Media Bias? (none / 0)

It is funny, but I see supporters of every candidate complaining that the media is in the tank for their opponent.  I think the real problem is just that the media sucks and cares more about ratings than actually engaging in real journalism.  It seems to me they have vacillated between bashing/praising one candidate over the other based entirely on what keeps this circus going the longest with political junkies glued to the screen.


by protothad on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:32:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (2.00 / 1)

Yes. Obama seems to have been successful in the DEMOCRATIC Primary, which unlike the general electorate, is full of politically correct, latte-sipping, pussies...  "Hillary went negative....wah... wah... wah...  They played the 'race card'... wah... wah... wah."

These tactics will not work for a general electorate, which expects its presidents to demonstrate something other than an ability to whine your way to the nomination...


by RecentConvert on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kevin quit the TR abuse. n/t (none / 0)


by interestedbystander on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

"If he wins the nomination and then loses in the general," it will be our fault if we don't rally around him.
Yes - this means you, Hillary supporters. Please don't be turned off just because a few Obamaniacs have been mean to you. We're on the same side.
by T B J on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should be more confident (none / 0)

No, I'm not on their side.


by bellarose on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:27:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (none / 0)

The party is already hurt.

Too late to change that fact now.


by bellarose on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (none / 0)

No concern, best of luck.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (1.00 / 1)

Another crap diary whining about FL and MI.  Nothing to see here...same ole same ole.  I wish her luck in the NY Senate Primary.  Be a real shame if some of those "neo libral" sites like MoveOn or Kos of HuffPo decide to turn on the fundraising spigot for her primary challenger.  Be a real shame if people already start pledging money in their head to whomever that candidate maybe.  Then she can go back to doing her civic duty bettering the community by working for the Walmart Board of Directors crafting insurance policies to screw over their workers.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (2.00 / 1)

Another BO Supporter shitting on the people of MI and FL. Go Join the Rove Republicans.

Kumbaya my ass and take your derision towards a great American and former FLOTUS and shove it.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why all the concern Obama folks? (none / 0)

Shocking - another moronic retort.  Bill is the one that insinuated that Obama was just another black candidate.  Ferraro was the one that insinuated that he wouldn't be anywhere if he wasn't black.  Hillary is the one that is insinuating that he can't win the white vote because he's black -- and you acuse Obama and his supporters of Rovian tactics?  You're a hypocrite.  Go cry somewhere else.  You candidate lost to a better run, more powerful campaign.

BTW, FL and MI will be seated -- they will be seated in a fair and equitable manner -- but again, since you're a hillary supporter, fairness and adherence to rules don't matter as much as winning.  Thank god you guys are the dying breed of the Democratic party.  


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

From now on (1.00 / 1)

I'll refer to diaries like this as "Kamikazi Diaries."

There ain't gonna be no divine wind to come along and save Hillary.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Primary Voters (2.00 / 4)

have supported HRC 14,973,652 over Obama's 14,582,651 for a 391,001 lead over BO. That number generously assigned 100% of the Michigan undecided Michigan primary voters to BO.

Spare me the Fl and MI rehash. BO may have prevented efforts to reselect DNC approved delegates, but real Democrats like me will never allow you to stick your shiv's in the backs of the actual voters who voted.

When voters vote, HRC is their choice. When a bus load of supporters can pack an undemocratic and unrepresentative caucuses, Obama wins.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Primary Voters (none / 0)

your numbers appear to be out of date...

or simply made up. Going by RCP's table, the primaries are 15,568,576 Obama vs. 15,019,856 Clinton. Clinton get's 300,000 closer if you include Florida, but the only measure where she's ahead includes Michigan without a single vote going to Obama and excludes all caucus states altogether.

...and you're calling throwing out the results of 14 states "democratic" now?


by Casuist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Newport's totals (none / 0)

are without any of the caucuses- just the one person, one vote totals.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

((sigh)) ... i realized that, which is why... (none / 0)

in the above comment, so are mine. Obama's still ahead, your math still stinks.


by Casuist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

yours does too. I just checked, if you are basing your totals off of real clear politics and you exclude all caucus estimates but include FL and MI giving Obama all uncommitteds from MI- then Clinton leads 146,000 and some change.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

State            Date    Obama        Clinton
Vermont            4-Mar    "91,901"    "59,806"
Delaware        5-Feb    "50,467"    "39,984"
District of Columbia    12-Feb    "93,386"    "29,470"
Utah            5-Feb    "74,538"    "51,333"
Rhode Island        4-Mar    "75,316"    "108,949"
New Hampshire        8-Jan    "104,815"    "112,404"
Mississippi        11-Mar    "265,730"    "159,273"
Arkansas        5-Feb    "82,476"    "220,136"
Oklahoma        5-Feb    "130,130"    "228,480"
South Carolina        26-Jan    "294,898"    "140,990"
Alabama            5-Feb    "300,143"    "222,897"
Louisiana        9-Feb    "220,632"    "136,925"
Connecticut        5-Feb    "179,720"    "165,406"
Arizona            5-Feb    "193,126"    "229,501"
Tennessee        5-Feb    "251,692"    "335,745"
Missouri        5-Feb    "405,637"    "394,400"
Maryland        12-Feb    "532,665"    "314,211"
Georgia            5-Feb    "704,247"    "330,026"
Virginia        12-Feb    "627,820"    "349,766"
Wisconsin        19-Feb    "646,851"    "453,954"
Massachusetts        5-Feb    "511,887"    "704,591"
New Jersey        5-Feb    "487,046"    "597,329"
Ohio            4-Mar    "1,055,769"    "1,259,620"
Texas            4-Mar    "1,362,476"    "1,462,734"
Illinois        5-Feb    "1,318,234"    "667,930"
New York        5-Feb    "751,019"    "1,068,496"
California        5-Feb    "2,186,662"    "2,608,184"
Pennsylvania        22-Apr    "1,046,822"    "1,260,937"
Indiana                "629,310"    "643,797"
North Carolina            "875,683"    "652,824"
total                "15,551,098"    "15,010,098"

Florida    29-Jan            "576,214"    "870,986"
Michigan**        15-Jan        0    "328,309"
                "576,214"    "1,199,295"
                "16,127,312"    "16,209,393"

As it turns out, some of these numbers are slightly out of date, but not in any way that really changes them,,, and certainly nothing that cuts down the number of votes to the level Newport posted.


by Casuist on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

Why, exactly, is it reasonable to exclude the caucuses?


by TL on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

Because they voted for Obama.


by catalysis on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:27:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

No, they caucused for BO to select delegates. They did not vote.

Let me type this really slowly for all one more time. I posted that when voters vote, HRC wins and when caucuses are held, BO wins.

TX and WA should prove to all how undemocratic and unrepresentative caucuses are versus primaries.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

as mentioned before... an 8 percent difference means Obama still wins every single state that's already in his column with the exception of Iowa. It's absolutely ridiculous to use the Washington "primary" as any sort of measure of support for the candidates... as any resident of that state will tell you (being a former resident myself). You knew... as did your candidate, heading into this process that the caucuses were a legitimate component of the nomination.
by Casuist on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:03:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ((sigh)) ... (none / 0)

Because if you read what I posted, I wrote;

When VOTERS vote, Clinton wins. When undemocratic and unrepresentative caucuses are held, BO wins.


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

and even that point... (none / 0)

is in error, given that your numbers for the primaries are wrong, and Obama leads the popular vote in primaries as well.
by Casuist on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Primary Voters (none / 0)

I took them from CNN Politics state by state...I could be in error but his is what the spreadsheet looks like;

State    Clinton    Obama
Alabama    226504    302814
Arizona    228158    191681
Arkansas    217313    81774
California    2306361    1891026
Ct    164831    179349
Delaware    40751    51124
DC    27326    85534
Florida    857208    569041
Georgia    328129    700366
Illinois    662845    1301954
Louisiana    136959    220588
Maryland    285440    464474
Mass    704591    511887
Michigan    328151    237764
Miss    155686    255809
Missouri    395287    405284
NH    112251    104772
New Jersey    602576    492186
New Mexico    73105    71396
New York    1003623    697914
Ohio    1207806    979025
Oklahoma    228425    130087
PA    1260444    1046220
RI    108750    75115
SC    295091    141128
Tenn    332599    250730
Texas    1459814    1,358,785
Utah    48719    70373
Vermont    59640    91740
Virginia    347252    623141
Washington    315222    353563
Wisconsin    452795    646007
Totals    14973652    14582651


by Newport News Dem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well, at first glance... (none / 0)

Your California numbers are very old.

The Washington primary is not a valid measure of voter sentiment in the state.

And your list excludes Indiana and North Carolina.


by Casuist on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and... (none / 0)

New Mexico is a hybrid system. I counted it as a caucus, given that its combined Clinton and Obama vote was 39% of the 2004 Kerry vote, less than any of the "primaries" with the exception of Michigan.
by Casuist on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:59:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Except for all those times when voters... (none / 0)

voted and she wasn't.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Does this mean.... (none / 0)

That South Dakota, Oregon, and Montana don't count? Those are the states that Obama is very strong in during that same time span.

Just curious since you only mentioned the states that Hillary Clinton is favored in.


by Yalin on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read again. (none / 0)


by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:53:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Read again. (none / 0)

I don't know if you edited your diary or if I just missed it, but my point is this. How is the split of the remaining 6 contests going to change the dynamic? It won't.

Additionally, you call the caucuses undemocratic? Uhm, how so? They've been part of the democratic process in the democratic primaries for decades.

Lastly, Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan. You know this. Trying to accept banana-republic style results without at least allocating some of those delegates to him and some of that popular vote to him is just intellectually dishonest at best, and self-delusion at worst.

Please, you can have Florida if you want. They were both on the ballot even though neither campaigned. But Michigan?? C'mon, we're better than that as a nation.

And if you truly want Hillary Clinton to even attempt to win the nomination by that process, you do not care for the rules. You only care for what will give you what you want.

That should not be acceptable to anyone truly interested in the quality of this process.


by Yalin on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

and I won't tell you what you care for. Not that I value your comments enough to continue this, but, just so you know, I have always been vocal about caucuses being undemocratic. I have always been vocal about counting FL and MI- since well before I was a Clinton supporter. And you know what, I am not alone. Go look at what Kos was saying about MI and FL back in December. If you want to tell someone that they only care about what will make them win- go scream at Kos for a while.
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

I have absolutely no proof that you've "always been vocal about caucuses being undemocratic". Only your word today when it's politically expedient for you, as a Clinton supporter, to state that.

The same goes for Michigan and Florida.

All I know is that caucuses are decided by people voicing their opinion and trying to win others to their side. It is the epitome of democracy.

And the other thing I know is that Florida and Michigan broke the rules and moved their primaries up. They were duly punished. Now as for Kos, please link me to his arguments regarding MI and FL back in December.

I'd be interested in reading it.


by Yalin on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

You are out of line questioning the diarist's integrity.  I would think the appropriate assumption would be that she is honest unless proven otherwise.  If she says she's always been against caucuses, then she has been.  End of discussion.

FL and MI broke the rules, but the punishment of disenfranchising ALL the voters in those states does not have to be applied (according to the rules).  That is an excessive punishment in the view of most, which is why their votes will count, and their delegates will be seated.  So, you may as well go ahead and figure that the popular vote is going to be a lot closer than it appears currently.


by slynch on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

"You are out of line questioning the diarist's integrity.  I would think the appropriate assumption would be that she is honest unless proven otherwise.  If she says she's always been against caucuses, then she has been.  End of discussion."

That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

"FL and MI broke the rules, but the punishment of disenfranchising ALL the voters in those states does not have to be applied (according to the rules).  That is an excessive punishment in the view of most, which is why their votes will count, and their delegates will be seated.  So, you may as well go ahead and figure that the popular vote is going to be a lot closer than it appears currently."

As I said earlier, count Florida if you must. But Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. That is a banana-republic style election if I ever saw one.


by Yalin on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

As for presuming inegrity, that's not my opinion.  That's called common human decency.  It's also the same principle our justice system is based on, and it's a matter of logic.  Asking someone to disprove a negative is virtually impossible.  If you want to question her integrity, then it is up to you to prove it.

As for MI, I might agree with you, but it certainly isn't as clear-cut a case as you (and others) are trying to make it seem.  There are very legitimate arguments on both sides.  Which is why it will ultimately count in some fashion.


by slynch on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:55:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

1) My "proof" is the intellectual dishonesty of this diary with regard to Michigan and Florida, as well as calling caucus states undemocratic.

I think it's absurd logic, but seems par the course coming from the Clinton's and their supporters these days in order to find a metric, any metric, to win this thing.

2) Michigan is about as clear cut as you can get considering the fact that Obama wasn't on the ballot. Uncommitted was.

Florida is certainly more murky imo considering they were both on it, but no one campaigned. That's not how our primary system typically works. But even there, I've been willing to concede that one because they were both on it.

That said, if you want Michigan to count, give Obama the uncommitted votes and delegates. That would be the most fair apportionment.

And you know what happened when this was proposed last week by the Michigan politicians? Hillary Clinton shot it down.


by Yalin on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

now you're question-begging.  You can't challenge her integrity regarding the claim that she has always maintained that caucuses are undemocratic on the basis of her comments in the diary saying that she thinks caucuses are undemocratic.

Both MI and FL are tricky issues; there is no clearly right or wrong approach regardless of what you might choose to think.  It is not appropriate to think ill of, or treat people poorly, simply because you disagree with them on a complex matter.

I actually find the argument that it is BO's own fault he took his name of the ballot fairly compelling.  If you want to punish MI for breaking the rules and claim it's just too bad for the voters, then it seems to be the same hard-ass argument to say it's too bad he opted off the ballot.

As for "I think it's absurd logic, but seems par the course coming from the Clinton's and their supporters these days in order to find a metric, any metric, to win this thing," that's typical of the hyperbole that's been spread around all primary season by Obama supporters and is a key reason I don't support him.  There are two metrics that have always been argued as important:  delegates and the PV.  Neither is going to win with pledged delegates, and so the HRC campaign has every reason to urge the superdelegates to consider the PV as a measure of electability before they commit to a candidate.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.  If she loses the popular vote, then that's it. Period.

Now, it is very true that Hillary has won the states that must be won in the general, and Obama has only won caucus states and red states (many of which were caucuses), and so that has been argued as an electability issue, but it hasn't been argued as a metric for outright choosing the nominee.


by slynch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't tell me what I care for (none / 0)

1) In the agreement that was signed, the candidates stated that they would remove themselves from any and all participation in the processes in Michigan and Florida.

Obama did so in Michigan, as did almost everyone else. He would have done so in Florida, but the state rules say that you can only remove your name from the ballot if you drop out of the race you're in. Obviously that wasn't going to happen, so he kept his name on the ballot.

That was the pledge they signed, and is part of the rules he agreed to, as did all other democratic candidates.

Here's the PDF of the pledge itself in black and white: http://www.fladems.com/page/-/documents/ THREE_pledge_versions.pdf

2) The only metric that has ever truly counted, since day one, has been the delegate math. That was the argument from Howard Wolfson last year. When they were losing the delegate math, it moved to popular vote. When Obama ran off 10 straight and moved too far ahead there, it moved to super delegates. When Obama began catching up there, it moved to counting Michigan and Florida without giving Obama any popular vote or delegate allocation from Michigan for the uncommitted.

And so forth and so on.

3) Obama has only won caucus states and red states?

Mmk, let's look at the 2004 electoral map:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/r esults/electoral.college/

Obama's Primary, Blue-State wins:

Illinois
Connecticut
Delaware
Maryland
Washington D.C.
Wisconsin
Vermont
Washington State
Vermont
Maine
Oregon (in a couple of weeks)

Clinton's Primary, Blue-State wins:
California
Pennsylvania
New York
New Jersey
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
New Hampshire

Now seriously, are you going to argue that California, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island are going republican in the fall if Clinton isn't the nominee? You could argue New Hampshire since they voted Bush in 2000, but they repudiated the republicans in 2004.

The only legit argument you could make would be Pennsylvania, and Obama is still running near even or ahead of McCain even with a divided democratic party.

So c'mon, let's be honest here.


by Yalin on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Here is kos' position which he was for (none / 0)

and now is against...

Anything to win, eh?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1 0/10/113223/27
by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is kos' position which he was for (none / 0)

Thanks for the link. I can see how his argument would be "fight against it before the disenfranchisement happens, but now that it's happened, you have to stick by the rules that were agreed to."

That said, if that is not his belief, I would say this is certainly political expe