MyDD :: Grow up people

by letterc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

obsidianwings.blogspot.com

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 6)

Absolutely. Let us not forget Clinton supporters have been totally blameless and have not engaged in any of the behavior you describe, and that you're totally not ignoring the diarist's intent.

Hooray for John McCain!

by ragekage on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Grow up people (1.20 / 10)

I agree with both of these posts. Obama himself has used 'typical white person' comment and that doesn't mean he is a black racist. It is similar to Hillary's comment on the poll data which is not white racism either. However, Obama camapign consistently used these false race-baiting accusations against Bill and Hillary to peel of the AA voters from them. Peeling of and keeping the AA voters from them is their primary strategy. This is one of the reason Obama defended Jeremiah Wright in the first time to retain the AA voters on his side. For this reason alone, I will NOT vote for him under any circumstance.

by Avistan on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 4)

The Clintons made some remarks that AA voters did not like. You cannot blame anyone but the Clintons for that.

by catalysis on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.

Obviously, but Avistan would have you believe that AA's would clearly be voting for HRC if they hadn't been duped or "bamboozled by shuck and jive" (as many of them like to say).

I've seen this latent racism postulated here time and time again, implying that AA's are too dumb to vote issues or recognize race baiting when they see it. It's pathetic and saddens me deeply.

Lex parsimoniae just doesn't seem to apply for some of these people. Go figure.

by fogiv on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

For real? (none / 0)

Honestly, you'd prefer McCain to Obama? Please, think before you vote. McCain will appoint the most conservative judges he can find.

I saw McCain on TV yesterday, and his major complaint about Obama was that he opposed the appointment of Roberts.

Myself? I'd prefer Clinton. I'd prefer Edwards.

I'll vote for whomever is the Democratic Nominee. Id prefer Mickey Mouse over John McCain. That guy is truly evil.

by NJ Liberal on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by lmalave on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"peeling away AA voters" is not a strategy that Obama would follow, for the simple reason that he would LOSE more white voters with ANY strategy that was designed to appeal to AAs. That's just the nature of the world we live in.

Remember, delegates are split up proportionally, so overall it is to your advantage to win as many votes as possible in every state. For this reason, Obama would not follow as strategy that would win him votes in some states (e.g. Southern states), yet cost him even more votes in other states (e.g. Midwest and Appalachian states)

Agree wholeheartedly, truthmatters. I look (2.00 / 6)

forward to all of us being on the same page soon, combining our passions to defeat McCain. The thing that really, really sends me over the edge is when some of the more obnoxious bloggers here - from both sides, to be sure - jump around leaving a trail of bile in their wake and then go into a diary calling for unity/can't we all just get along and act as if they are the paragon of virtue, hoping to heal us with their calming words. That, more than anything else gets my blogger blood boiling...

highly rec'd!

Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.

by Rumarhazzit on Sun May 11, 2008 at 09:51:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Grow up people & Admin's! (2.00 / 2)

I'd Rec this diary and Rate some comments, but the Admin's here seem to be just as infantile. (I know, I shouldn't insult the admins...)

Seriously, give me a break already. I apologize for Recommending a Bob Johnson diary.

by power of truth on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:25:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Grow up people & Admin's! (2.00 / 2)

I recc'd just about every Bob Johnson diary I read, and managed to keep my TU status.

BJ was bombastic and snarky, but underneath it all, well reasoned.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.

by fogiv on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by BlueinColorado on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:34:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You wouldn't need to post things in caps and boldface to make your point if you had the facts on your side.

Oh for the days of red and purple crayon, eh?

by lmalave on Mon May 12, 2008 at 10:42:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Obama and his followers"

Source, please? I don't think you'll find that Obama or any of his main campaign strategists (e.g. Axelrod, Plouffe) accused the Clintons of racism or race baiting.

Bloggers are not part of the Obama campaign people. The are not part of the "Obama camp". Obama can't be held responsible for every statement that anyone in the world says.

In the case of the race-baiting accusations, it was primarily fueled by talk radio in South Carolina, and then the mainstream media picked it up.

The Obama campaign had nothing to do with it.

Oh, bite me. (none / 0)

Sorry. I don't know what came over me. I was ready to write a post saying how much I agree with you and then this little voice just told me to insult you instead.

Those internets just get in your head like that.

I'm only a click away

by juliewolf on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 10)

amen. rec'd.

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato

by canadian gal on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:09:30 AM EST

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 12)

Heh, I'll be 24 in a couple of months, and I keep thinking the same thing. Not to say I've never made an immature, uncalled-for remark, but some of these people are ridiculous. Surely the ones who are making the fuss are just bored, trolling teenagers pretending to be adults, though, right? There's no way some of these people can really take themselves seriously.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:10:12 AM EST

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 4)

I heart sricki!

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.

by fogiv on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by sricki on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Aww, that's cute. ;)

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by upstate girl on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I heart you too. You've continually been the best representation for Clinton supporters on this site and your rationality and level-headedness is greatly appreciated.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.

She's great, right?!? Now, back to the laboratory to devise a plan to make her attitude more contagious...

by fogiv on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some competition here (2.00 / 2)

I heart you too, and did as Brit.

But as for the teenage thing. Yeah, sure. But don't forget the words of TS Eliot "Let me not hear of the wisdom of old men, but their rage and their folly..." (or words to that effect)

I'm amazed by how many former respectable dems have had their frothing 'teenage' moments. It's not only the wounds of sexism and racism that will need to be healed, but generational conflict. I get the upstart punk stuff. But I also the outrage, resentment and frankly, the hurt sense of entitlement, of the baby boomers. And technically I'm one - and so is Obama.

by duende on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, same to you. (2.00 / 2)

You were one of the people who reminded me that some of the extremists on dKos aren't really representative of Obama's supporters as a whole.

I think some people lose perspective as they get older. They forget what it was like to be young, or they remember behaving differently and thus feel secure in criticizing the way young people act. I've also gotten the impression that a lot of Hillary supporters are very hurt by what they perceive as an attempt (by young Obama supporters) to "hijack" the party. Most of her supporters are centrists/moderates (which I'm not), whereas Obama is being pushed by a lot of liberals and progressives. They're both centrists, of course, but I think the fact that Hillary is "the DLC candidate" pisses a lot of people off. But I think a lot of older people feel as if their party -- a party they've loved and worked for and been a part of for years -- is being somehow stolen from them (or perhaps irrevocably altered), and they're angry because they feel powerless to stop it.

On the other hand, young people can't really understand how older people feel -- and they usually don't bother to try. People on both sides are looking down their noses at each other, rather than talking. Nothing is ever accomplished by mutual condescension, and I think this race is intensifying the generational conflict. Or maybe it's just bringing the divide into sharper focus.

I've never fit in very well with most Clinton supporters. According to the MSM, I should be supporting Obama. Apparently, I'm too young, too educated, too "elite", and too liberal to be backing Hillary. And I hate the stereotypes, hence my sig.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You youngsters are going to the dogs ;-) (2.00 / 1)

Rec's to you & truthmatters from a liberal who is 2.5 times your age and remembers the generation gap wars from my own era.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

That quote has been attributed to Plato, to Socrates, to Aristotle, to Cicero, to Hesiod, to 'an old monk', to an Assyrian cuneiform tablet, and to an ancient Egyptian papyrus. I first read it in high school a couple hundred years ago, lol. Wherever it comes from, I figure the "younger generation" has been going to the dogs for at least a couple thousand years now. :-D

From Robert Frost:

Now I am old my teachers are the young.
What can't be molded must be cracked and sprung.
I strain at lessons fit to start a suture.
I go to school to youth to learn the future.

There's life in us old dogs yet, but as the seasons of our lives roll over into autumn and winter it's good to know that the exuberance of spring is behind us to continue the good fight. It's your turn.

Peace out

by Swedie on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You youngsters are going to the dogs ;-) (2.00 / 1)

Agree with every word you say, and am particularly grateful for some historic prose and an unknown-to-me Frost poem. I'd give you big mojo, if my powers to do so hadn't been arbitrarily removed. So take these words instead, Swedie.

by duende on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:53:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You youngsters are going to the dogs ;-) (none / 0)

I've never read that quote before, but it's cool -- the generational conflict clearly isn't new. I've always been very fond of Frost, too.

Funny thing is, I don't really like my generation. We tend to be disrespectful, entitled, and arrogant. That's part of the reason my best friend is 41. Whenever I hear someone say, "This generation is America's future," I get really nervous. Thankfully, we still have the guidance of your generation, though a lot of them don't like us very much. ;)

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks, same to you. (2.00 / 2)

You know what, Sricki, after all the arguments and discussions I have had during these primaries, all the words and facts and fallacies and syllogisms, if the sole result was that you changed your mind about typical Obama supporters, and I did the same about Hillary supporters, then it would have all been worthwhile.

The fact you DON'T fit in the demographic, and are reasonable, uninsulting, unpatronising about my Obama support perversely makes me look at Hillary again and think: if Sricki supports her then there must be something I'm missing. And when you say you've been offended by Obama supporters, I look at some of my comments again.

Small moments of reprieve like this are like diamonds in the mud during these primary wars. No wonder so many people heart you.

by duende on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:11:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks, same to you. (2.00 / 2)

I've had the same experience. The rude, belligerent Obama supporters at dKos drowned out the reasonable ones. I honestly think a lot of Hillary supporters are mad at Obama, in part, because of his fanbase. For a long time, I thought their behavior reflected a top-down mentality. It's an illogical (but very human) reaction to project one's resentment of Obama's or Hillary's supporters onto the candidate him/herself. I heart a lot of you guys, too, and I owe people like you a real debt of gratitude. I came to MyDD and started talking to some reasonable, intelligent, polite, good people, and I thought, "They see something in Obama that I don't." When I looked at him with an open mind, I realized that I saw it, too.

And after coming here, I also saw that Hillary has some godawful assholes supporting her. I wish they wouldn't act like that. It reminds me of when I was in grade school, and we'd go on field trips -- the teachers would always say to us, "Be on your best behavior. You are representing your school, and poor conduct will reflect poorly on all of us." It applies to this situation, too -- we represent our candidates, and we should try to do it admirably.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 11:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks, same to you. (2.00 / 1)

You know what. I'm pretty tough and I've probably said more harsh words during this primary campaign than I've said in a whole host of other campaigns back here in the UK.

But your reply brought - if not a tear to the eye - then some kind of suppressed upwelling, and a choke in my (virtual) throat.

It's all about seeing what other people see. So many conflicts and misunderstandings because people place their faith and heart in exterior objects, and they don't mean the same things to different people, but often the emotions are exactly the same.

Hmm. All this kind of explains to me why I've wasted so much time (as a non voter and freelance writer) on these primary wars. I care passionately about the US, and the Presidency and the potential for change it brings. But I care even more about the ability to imagine, and cast yourself in someone's place, and those people - like yourself - who make that easier.

by duende on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, and sometimes it's very difficult (none / 0)

to see what others see. I rather rudely jumped down someone's throat earlier tonight and acted like a huge ass. But then I calmed down and explained how I felt, and I realized that he had no way of knowing why I was offended by what he had said. I got a new insight into the way he felt, and he came to understand some of the issues which trouble Hillary's fans the most. Obama supporters on MyDD are interesting that way -- they're more willing to listen than most Clinton supporters.

Heh, time spent working for a candidate you believe in is never time wasted -- even when your candidate doesn't win, which mine won't this year. Still, it's been worth it, and I'll have another fine candidate to support when Hillary drops out. And as we watch the election results roll in next November, I fully expect to be overwhelmed with emotions (which rarely happens to me) as I watch this nation elect its first African American president. There will be smiles and laughter and tears of joy that night, and it'll be the kind of once in a lifetime experience that can never be duplicated. And I just know I'll be smiling at strangers on the street for weeks, because the pleasure I'll take in victory like that isn't something I'll be able to hide. The people in this country will be beaming, and I suspect a lot of others around the world will be doing the same.

I can't wait for November.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks, same to you. (2.00 / 1)

Same. I fit the "Obama voter" profile much better than the Hillary voter profile, and yet, I just like her better.

by wilder on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly. (none / 0)

I have no idea why people think she isn't likeable. I adore her.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Wed May 14, 2008 at 12:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Mandoliniment on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:45:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. I had you pegged by maturity level as significantly older, even against the background of "I've been a Democrat since you were a baby!" invective from people trying to prove their bonafides.

I heart sricki too!

John McCain

If I were the blushing type, (2.00 / 1)

I'd definitely be red right now. I keep trying to tell people that most of the Obama supporters on MyDD are friendly, but no one listens to me. Probably because I'm still technically a "young upstart".

I try to be fair whenever possible, and I think people tend to associate it with maturity and assume I'm older. But hey, look around you -- we've got 50-year-olds smearing Obama as a Muslim and an unpatriotic elitist. Age, not maturity. We've also got a lot of young people around here who behave very admirably. The gloves come off online, and some people get carried away with the perks of anonymity. A lot of them shouldn't even be allowed around teh internets.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

some get carried away with being clever (none / 0)

and I may fall into that demographic.

When people keep on repeating the same tired old schpiel, well, we all get sick of it. And that goes for both sides.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: some get carried away with being clever (none / 0)

No doubt. I know I've gotten carried away with my own snarky rhetoric. I think a lot of us have.

Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!

by sricki on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 10)

I agree, and it is embarrassing.

I think some people just like to trash others on the internet, probably out of boredom, I dunno.

AnnMarie

by wiscogirl101 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:12:07 AM EST

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 8)

Unfortunately, your message will be lost amongst those who really need to hear it.

But I'm rec'ing it anyway.

John McCain smells like mothballs.

by asherrem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:13:08 AM EST

Re: Grow up people (2.00 / 4)

I am just tired of it, I have bounced form site to site and eventually its all the same.

I was literally SHOCKED when I heard the average age of a Dkos poster is like 40-50

I had assumed they were my age the way they talk.
there is just no where to go anymore to just have an honest to god good ol fashioned debate on politics.

its just insults and slander and tearing the other side down.

Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee

by TruthMatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:15:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Susan in Oregon on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:18:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"there is just no where to go anymore to just have an honest to god good ol fashioned debate on politics. "

I've had quite a few, but they virtually always happen with real people, in the flesh. People communicate less agressively in person, as a general rule.

by Falsehood on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:21:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Body language is more important than I realize many times. Anonymity also.

Oh, you get to the longer posts (none / 0)

and you realize that some people just make good conversations.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

John McCain smells like mothballs.

Oh I completely agree, and that's why I rec'ed your diary.

by asherrem on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

51 for me. (2.00 / 1)

And in Internet years, older still. I ran an online political forum (Soapbox BBS) back in the late '80s, '90s, so I have been around, and I can say that it is difficult to tell people's ages just from the way they type or how "immature" they appear to be on forums.

There are a few indicators though. Like if somebody goes off on a tangent about Iran-Contra or Nixon invading Cambodia or mentions Pacific Radio in any context at all or they brag innocently about their drug experiences, you know they're not young'uns.

But political forums tend to get mean. This is as mean a year as I've seen, but I remember back in '88 how mad people got at Jesse Jackson online. He was never a serious candidate for president, but he was the target of a huge and disproportionate amount of hate relative to the significance of his campaign. Posters threatening to track each other down and kill them, that kind of thing. Very exciting for the rest of us immature people.

by Dumbo on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (1.71 / 7)

I think your outburst has more to do with the fact that you are angry about Democrats who say they won't vote for Obama if he is the nominee.

You're frustrated that Clinton supporters aren't buying into the "unity" theme. And, you're worried about the backlash from a divisive primary season. And, well you should be. Because this primary season--some of us have been around long enough to experience MANY primary seasons--has been destructive on many levels. There are wounds which may not heal by November.

I sense that Obama supporters are worried about the broad coalition Clinton has put together among the Democratic base, and they worry that Obama won't be able to win them over. There is evidence that in the past, nominees haven't been able to win over an opponents voters, so it's not an unreasonable worry at this point.

Polls do show that Clinton voters say they won't vote for Obama by anywhere from 20-50%. Now, I personally think that about half of those will change their minds come November. But I think that there will be possibly 20% of Clinton supporters--seniors and latino voters and possibly a sizeable number of women--who will not vote for Obama in November. Can't say if they'll go for McCain, some seniors will certainly, and some latinos will, but I think many will just opt out.

Perhaps the Democrats can balance those voters with younger voters who've gotten involved this cycle, but younger voters don't have a history of either showing up, or voting in down-ticket races, so that's not a given. With Obama as the nominee, it's a gamble--even in a year when the GOP has abominable ratings.

Suddenly Obama supporters are all talking about "unity" and at the very same time, castigating those who say they'll cross over to McCain. That's been your commentary of late.

First Clinton supporters were hounded and driven away because they wouldn't acquiesce to Obama supporter's demands, dismissals, and derision. Now, Obama supporters are trying to claim the moral high ground by accusing Clinton supporters of being GOP trolls and demanding they join in the "unity" party for November.

But, the driving-out process has been vicious; and in the process, much more about Obama has come to light which further complicates the "unity" party.

And, some of us are disgusted by the disenfranchisement of Democrats in 2 states in service to one candidate over another, or in service to a ludicrous argument that the punishment fits the crime. It doesn't; what it fundamentally is, is Democrats cutting off their nose to spite their best candidate in the general.

I won't be voting for Obama. I won't be voting for McCain. If there are down-ticket Dems I feel strongly enough about, I may turn out to vote for them. I won't change my mind; it's too late for that. Obama is not a candidate I can support; and the Democratic Party is currently on my shit-list if you want to know the truth. Brazile and Dean have driven me away.

Obama supporters don't want to hear any of this "civil" discourse. So, you can call me a GOP Troll drive me away further. But, Obama and his supporters and the Democratic leadership can't drive people out, and then accuse them of not supporting the party. Once people are driven away, accusations don't bring them back.

"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman

by Tennessean on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (1.66 / 6)

Tenn, you've described exactly how I feel about the Democratic Party, Obama and the completely premeditated divisiveness of this campaign.

Here's another lifelong Democrat who's changed to 'no party affiliation' and will not be voting Obama in the GE.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:56:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

stock up on coathangers then (2.00 / 3)

this young feminist thanks you for promising to elect someone who'll take away my right to make my own reproductive choices.

troll.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!

by annatopia on Sun May 11, 2008 at 11:39:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stock up on coathangers then (1.50 / 2)

if we vote downticket for dems and they keep the house, you won't lose your freedom over your reproductive choices.

by colebiancardi on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stock up on coathangers then (2.00 / 0)

This is the most disingenuous reason for voting McCain I've ever heard. You simply can't bring yourself to vote for the Democratic candidate, and instead vote for the guy that stands against every progressive value...just because your choice Dem didn't get the nomination?

Take your justifications elsewhere. There's no excuse, and pretending the downticket won't be affected by the actual President is beyond ludicrous.

by upstate girl on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stock up on coathangers then (2.00 / 1)

The House doesn't confirm Supremes .. the Senate does

John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion

by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Untrue in so many ways. (n/t) (none / 0)

Check out McCain.

by you like it on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bull (2.00 / 1)

we've seen how the senate democrats (who actually confirm the nominee, not the house) roll over and defer to republican presidents past. why would anything be different under president mccain? how the fuck do you think we got a-holes like robert and alito??

christ on a cracker. get some logic, man.

the ONLY way we can gaurantee that SCOTUS does not lurch irretrievably rightward is to elect a democratic president AND a democratic controlled congress.

i am not about to "sit this one out" or "vote mccain" with the stakes this high. i would have voted for mike fucking gravel if he'd won the nomination in order to prevent another alito. can you say the same?

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!

by annatopia on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stock up on coathangers then (2.00 / 1)

Supreme court justices? McCain will appoint more Roberts and THomases

yikes!

by gil44 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: stock up on coathangers then (none / 0)

President McCain = radical right supreme court justices.

Do you not understand this?

President McCain means neverending war. Iraq, Iran, and anyone else who pisses him off.

Do you not understand this?

President McCain means tax cuts for the rich and the rest of us can go to hell.

Do you understand this?

President McCain means that health care is all about making us pay for MORE, you know, so we won't get so many expensive tests.

Do you not understand this?

I'm sorry your preferred candidate didn't win. I'm sorry the DNC and the idiotic party officials in Florida and Michigan screwed up this primary (because if Michigan and Florida would've played by the damn rules like everyone else we wouldn't be in this position.) But where in your mind is President McCain preferable to an Obama administration?

by EvilAsh on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:19:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Surely a 'young feminist' (2.00 / 2)

can recognize that along with your right to make such fundamental choices, others also have the right to make their own fundamental choices. Apparently, only your 'rights' are important, and somehow 'trump' mine.

That's why I find the Obama supporters so divisive and his campaign completely devoid of the 'unity' he espouses in his flowery rhetoric.

Calling me a 'troll' doesn't help your case, it just shows your immaturity.

As a gay man who has been denied his very fundmental rights in regards to sexual rights, you do have the same ability to stay 'coat hanger free' that I had to stay 'legal' during the times that sodomy laws were selectively enforced against homosexuals. I'm not 'forcing' coathangers on anyone. However, I have the right not to reward a candidate who has made his 'success' hinge upon the destruction of the only two term Democratic POTUS in half a century and his positive accomplishments for the Nation, along with labeling his spouse a 'racist' with my vote.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Surely a 'young feminist' (2.00 / 1)

You do realize Obama's GLBT platform is more progressive than Clinton's? That Roe v. Wade has prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths due to illegal abortions? That either Clinton or Obama would be far better for GLBT rights than McCain? Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. Its astounding you would vote against your own best interests.

by upstate girl on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But you are OK with (2.00 / 2)

...McCain's associaion with Hagee and Falwell?? Let me introduce you to some of the statements they have on gays/lesbians:

JohnHagee:

"All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that.
The newspaper carried the story in our local area, that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it would was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades.
So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the Day of Judgment, and I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."

Jerry Falwell:

"god hates homosexuality"

"role modelling the gay lifestyle is damaging to the moral lives of children."

About 9/11

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

And you, being gay, would rather have McCain as POTUS and his associates??

I'm Ready For A Good Old GOP & John McCain Ass Kickin'!!!

by hootie4170 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

disengenuous (2.00 / 0)

first, sorry for assuming you were a mature woman. you're obviously not.

but don't you dare toss your cards at me. i have been fighting for the rights of my GLBT brothers and sisters for as long as i've been fighting to retain my own.

threatening to take your ball and go home, and leave the SCOTUS to assholes like scalia, roberts, and alito, is a-1 troll behavior brother.

Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!

by annatopia on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Surely a 'young feminist' (none / 0)

how did DOMA and DADT work out for you?

It's all about McCain/Bush now...

by thereisnospoon on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:25:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (2.00 / 0)

Thanks for letting my soldiers stay stuck in a 100-year McCain war.

SWELL!!

NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!

by Veteran75 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:16:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (2.00 / 1)

Well, they are 'my' soldiers too.

In fact, my nephew, who happens to be my namesake, is there now. I do not relish the thought of him staying there one minute longer than he has to.

However, not voting in the GE is not the same as a vote for McCain, no matter how you folks who detest Hillary try to spin it. Obama's camp decided long ago that they could trash Hillary and Bill and have no consequences. Unfortunately they were wrong.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (2.00 / 1)

So you're willing to punish the soldiers who are fighting this unjust war - give them President McCain - because you want to punish Obama? That's the most selfish, immature thing I've ever heard.

by upstate girl on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (2.00 / 1)

Boo hoo. Get over it.

A lot of crazy things were said by "anonymous bloggers" on both sides. There were some incredibly "out of place" (for a Democratic site) diaries and comments on this site - some taken directly from right-wing sites - that bashed Obama too. I would still vote for Hillary if she won the nomination.

This site should work to elect Democrats, period. Only one candidate can win, so somebody's feelings had to be hurt...

by power of truth on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (2.00 / 1)

However, not voting in the GE is not the same as a vote for McCain, no matter how you folks who detest Hillary try to spin it.

You're right, it's not the same. If you were voting for McCain, that would be saying that you DO prefer him over Obama. That you like him better on things like the war, the economy, his Supreme Court nominees.

Saying that you won't vote for either is the same as saying that "you don't care" about any of those issues. That it doesn't matter whether Obama or McCain wins because you don't care about things like the war, or the economy, or the tilt of the Supreme Court.

They are not the same. Nonetheless, I would not want to put myself on record as not caring about those issues. Do you?

Check out McCain.

by you like it on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not voting in the GE this year either (2.00 / 2)

BO doesn't deserve my vote.

Lifelong Democrat

by observer5 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not voting in the GE this year either (none / 0)

Why exactly doesn't he deserve your vote?

Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

by mistersite on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not voting in the GE this year either (2.00 / 2)

Outside of his professionally written and well delivered speeches (aka soaring inspiring content-free rhetoric), Barack Obama has not done anything to earn my respect, confidence, or support.

by observer5 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:32:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not voting in the GE this year either (2.00 / 0)

First, it's more than likely that he'll be the Democratic nominee. That alone should be enough to earn the vote of anyone who calls him- or herself a Democrat - particularly given the stakes of this election and the utter regressiveness of the only viable alternative, John McFourMoreYearsofBush.

But I don't want Barack to just have your vote so you can vote against McSame. I want him to have your respect, confidence, and support. I want you to join us in not only voting for him, but donating and volunteering.

I do have to take issue with your claiming that Obama's speeches are "soaring inspiring content-free rhetoric." If you watch his speeches, particularly his more recent ones, there is plenty of content there about opening government back up to the people, about making it easier for people to get jobs, about making it easier to go to college, about getting out of this war. Moreover, there is a great deal more content on his website, which is, in my opinion, probably a better format, as it allows the reader to peruse at his/her own pace rather than trying to put it in a stump speech.

Finally, Obama's record as a legislator, as a civil rights lawyer, and as a community organizer is out there for the world to see, and shows remarkable achievement and the ability to bring people together to solve problems. What in that record do you find lacking?

Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.

by mistersite on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not voting in the GE this year either (none / 0)

Outside of his professionally written and well delivered speeches

He writes a majority of his speeches himself. I suppose you could say they are "professionally written" in the sense that Obama happens to be a damn good speech writer.

Barack Obama has not done anything to earn my respect, confidence, or support.

The fact that he isn't running on the GOP ticket should be enough after the last 8 years.

After the kind of crap the GOP has thrown at anyone who dares oppose them since 1994 much less good democrats like Jim Wright, Tom Foley, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Max Cleland, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, John Edwards, Harry Reid, and yes even Barack Obama, you'd think anyone with a lick of sense would be a yellow dog democrat by now.

Your choice is yours, but I urge you to reconsider.

by ces on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "Grow up" (2.00 / 2)

Hello, fellow survivor. I haven't done it yet but I intend to follow your lead and go "no party" and will not vote for Obama.

And it hurts to think that for the first time in my life I won't be working my ass off for a Democratic presidential candidate.

Hate using any Raygun quote but like the man said: "I didn't leave the party, it left me".

by Tolstoy on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:35:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: doing the same (none / 0)

cant bring myself to vote for someone with so little exp. don't care what race, sex or religion. All you Obama supporters can rush in now and tell me I am not a Democrat or that I am a racist or that I am a troll or that I am ruining your chances for reproductive rights or to end the war blah blah blah.
When I was working to fight the Reagan administration where were you? probably some weren't alive then. Now your candidate is someone who admires Reagan. Puke! And you accuse me of not being a Democrat. Right. During the Gingrich years where were you?
I will still vote down ticket for Dems but not for Obama..You can call me all the names you want. But don't post these phony diaries on unity or civility now and at the same time say how awful posters are who don't want to vote for your candidate.

What would Eleanor Roosevelt do?

by ricardo4 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. (1.66 / 3)

Perhaps the folks working so hard to label the Clintons as racists and destroy their positive contributions to the Nation should have thought about those consequences beforehand.

Sometimes it's not about 'hurt feelings'. It's about ethics and principles, and not rewarding divisive behavior with a vote. About that door? Don't worry, it won't hit us on the way out, but you'll definitely have to repair it to keep your house in order.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:27:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. (none / 0)

Perhaps the folks working so hard to label the Clintons as racists and destroy their positive contributions to the Nation should have thought about those consequences beforehand.

Perhaps the Clintons and their surrogates shouldn't have started using dog whistle language.

I don't think the Clintons are racist, but I sure as hell know race-bating language when I hear it.

by ces on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. (2.00 / 2)

That's the biggest lie ~ and yet everyone keeps repeating it.

by Mags on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:26:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

maybe because we listen to our elders (none / 0)

and we hear what they have to say.

Have you read skeptical brotha?

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't let the door hit ya on the way out. (none / 0)

positive contributions? Like the Defense of Marriage Act, you mean?

It's all about McCain/Bush now...

by thereisnospoon on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:27:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ethics and principles be damned. (none / 0)

America is torturing people!

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you don't like the fifty state strategy? (none / 0)

... the one that gave a damn fine campaign for Ford in 2006?

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:27:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hurt feelings (none / 0)

It is so easy to over simplify and say people aren't voting for Obama because they have "hurt feelings", or they are racists, or they wouldn't have voted Democratic anyhow. You just can't get it through your skulls that some of us think that he is unqualified. It is as simple as that. But if it makes you feel better to ignore what people are telling you ....

What would Eleanor Roosevelt do?

by ricardo4 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:49:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by Susan in Oregon on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:13:57 AM EST

It's not an age thing, it's an internet thing. And not just on political blogs. But I know you already know that.

I mean, it does get silly sometimes, but I (like you) always have the option to stop reading. I often exercize that option. Still, people express themselves as they wish, and your admonishments aren't going to change that... but you can change the channel.

I've written posts similar to yours in other internet contexts, and they really don't accomplish anything other than reinforcing your own sense of superiority -- even if what you say it true, as it indeed is.

by upstate girl on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:21:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly - its an internet thing. Most of the worst offenders I've run into on any site on any topic tend to behave in the same way - extremely childish, very self-centered, struggling to put a coherent thought together, victim complex galore.

If you really want a place for intelligent conversation, you almost have to move to a subscription-based site that weeds out the worst of the white noise and trolls with consistent moderation. The Straight Dope boards are a good example.

Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee

oh I know no one will listen, the internet allows people to be as childish as they like.
but I feel better at least getting that off my chest.

if even 1 person takes a step back and says ya know maybe he is right I have gotten carried away, then it was worth it

and maybe they will pay it forward.

by TruthMatters on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:22:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by Hillarywillwin on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:14:06 AM EST

Didn't you know we are back in High school. Apparently you even have kids trying to pretend to be the cool kids who would have thought that would happen

by letterc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:44:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay, it is a little weird seeing you posting in agreement on this diary. Aren't you a satirical troll?

by Hillarywillwin on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To understand the nature of one is to understand the ideas of another. To seek a answer is but a mere question. In reality what may seem to be may simply not be. The truth of the matter is....

You first! (2.00 / 2)

Ha! I kill me! ;) No, seriously though, good point. Your point is why I post at Mydd- it IS, despite the occasional lapse by many, the most respectful place left on the internets for Obama or Clinton bloggers. rec'd.

by linc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:19:03 AM EST

John McCain hates terrorists, except the ones that hate women. Those are just swell.

I'm 21 and I between me and my peers I haven't seen ANYTHING like the acrimony between you old timers. when young Obama supporters hang out with young Clinton supporters it always seem to end up just a mess of jokes, not a mess of blood and guts.

by terra on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:20:17 AM EST

--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--

true dat.

by amde on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:28:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by optimusprime on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:12:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

rad

Doesn't surprise me a bit (2.00 / 1)

In my work I often find myself facilitating discussion among students in three different age groups:

Undergraduates aged 19-22
Grad students aged 28-40+
Executives aged 50+

Of the three groups, the most polite is the first. The least polite is the last. The grad students are somewhere in between.

It gets really interesting when the groups get mixed up, however. Last year I had a 20-year-old crying after a retired CEO guest speaker unloaded on her in class. She asked a very insightful question that he could not answer, so he resorted to an ad hominem attack on her.

Sound familiar?

by professor on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by wiscogirl101 on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:21:29 AM EST

Honestly, I'd like to see some of those who have a habit of insulting others defend that kind of behavior.

AnnMarie

by Kysen on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:23:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why?
You can see them 'defending' their behavior every day in a variety of threads. Usually with, as the diarist pointed out, some form of "BUT THEY DID IT FIRST!!!".

Once the Democratic nominee is solidly locked in...the ink has dried...and there are no questions left as to who it is....at that point, and at that point only, will most of them (be they Hillary or Obama supporters) become a distasteful memory.

They will either leave in a snit of their own accord...or will be banned for what will then be undeniably troll'ish behavior (currently there is a wee little bit of wiggle room since we have not officially decided upon our Dem candidate for the Gen).

Until then, we have to put up with them. Report the most egregious offenders (poor Admin...they must have their hands full) and try to ignore the petty anklebiters.

Whatever the case, be it now or later, I couldn't give 2 shits as to what their 'excuses' or 'reasoning' may be....for there is no legit excuse or line of reasoning that would justify the BS being spewed here of late (the 'Oh yeah? Well, then, I'll vote for McCain! That will show you!!' type is especially odious).

By the time November rolls around...MYDD will be working as a united front to see McCain soundly defeated. Those pushing other goals will be history round these parts. Rightfully so.

I think there's something about (2.00 / 5)

talking in print instead of in person that taps into our inner selves instead of the facade we present to the outside world with all it's social norms, etc.

Turns out we're all only 12 on the inside...and I'll be (horrors!) 60 this year. ;)

I trust Senator Obama.

by GFORD on Sun May 11, 2008 at 01:46:35 AM EST

What's wrong with (2.00 / 7)

Clintonista?

I've grown to embrace and love the term. Yes, at one time it was suppose to be a slur but I've taken to accepting it the way some in the LGBT community have embraced "Queer" and African-Americans have embraced the N-Word.

Clintonista is now my word and to me it means Democrats who presided over peace and prosperity in America and fought for things like UHC, balanced the budget and whose cabinet mirrored the ethnic make-up of America and actually won the White House twice!

"Barack did the Constitution just like he did Hillary. He was riding dirty."

by LatinoVoter on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:10:11 AM EST

I'm also a Clintonista! (2.00 / 4)

It's a word that we proudly use. I believe that it was coined by one of Bill Clinton's advisers during the 90's. It's not at all insulting.

That said, Obamabot and Obamatron are insults and we should refrain from using those words.

Atdleft's co-blogger opposing John McCain

by psychodrew on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with (2.00 / 1)

Plus, it is connotatively associated with the Sandinistas who drove a tyrant from power, were re-elected in free and fair elections, until they were finally defeated in a free and fair election only because the Nicaraguan people were exhausted from the war with the US and the US had made clear it would only end when the Sandinistas were no longer in power. They introduced land reforms and fought for women's rights.

Admittedly, their counter-insurgency methods were brutal in the areas that were somewhat loyal to the contras.

by letterc on Sun May 11, 2008 at 04:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, it comes from "Peronista" (none / 0)

not "Sandinista." The connotation being that Hillary is an "American Evita" who essentially slept her way to power and will stop at nothing to achieve her own ends, all the while putting on a guise of caring about the poor.

It isn't a compliment--and is actually a really ugly accusation to make against a Democrat.

John McCain, John McCain

by Elsinora on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, it comes from "Peronista" (none / 0)

ACTUALLY, it comes from "perotnista", which was the political phrase du jure to refer to Ross Perot followers. That came from Peronista.

Mary Matilin, who never had an original thought in her head then changed it to "Clintonista". All this happened as far back as 92.

by Jordache on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:01:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually, it comes from "Peronista" (none / 0)

You know it actually makes sense as a term for the followers of the quasi-fascist Ross Perot. I was out of the country that year, so I didn't know that was the origin. I always assumed it was suggesting that Bill's cadre were communists, like the Sandinista, which is funny/insane, but normal for the right. I once heard some idiot on Fox (the only time I've ever watched it) explaining how Kerry was a socialist who intended to nationalize industry in the US. My only thought was, "Wow, how can I get into the alternate Universe where this guy lives? Wouldn't it be neat if there were a viable left wing party in the US?"

by letterc on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:47:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by bsavage on Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:14:08 AM EST

There are 30-50 year old people on this site? Yeah right. Those people have families and other stuff to do. I feel great that I'm so young.

by Rationalisto on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:06:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I feel great that you are so young, too. Now will you please get me that latte I ordered?

by bsavage on Sun May 11, 2008 at 03:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hehe.