Change Oregon Can Believe In?

A week ago, I wrote about a 13-page detailed plan, called The Oregon Compact, that Hillary prepared specifically for the state of Oregon.  In my original diary, I said:

As the old adage goes, "Fail to plan, plan to fail."

I encourage fellow Democrats to start expecting more from our politicians.  Don't fall prey to petty bickering and small thinking.  Instead, insist that your candidates back their rhetoric with real, substantive plans.

I am proud of Hillary for putting pen to paper and giving people specific, substantive policy points - let's have a debate about real issues and not just petty politics.  I was sure the Obama campaign would appreciate this, but here was their initial response:

Sen. Obama looks forward to spreading his message of change to the voters of Oregon. We will review and consider the best ways to do that.

It didn't sound very promising.  But a week has passed and, true to their word, the Obama campaign has prepared a document titled "BARACK OBAMA: CHANGE OREGON CAN BELIEVE IN."  So how do the plans stack up?

About energy, Barack tells Oregon that he will "Require 25 Percent of Electricity to Come from Renewable Sources by 2025."  And that's great.  Except that Oregon already passed that standard into law, on their own, back in 2007.  I mention this to illustrate the way in which this document is out-of-touch with its audience.

By contrast, Hillary gets it right, pointing out that:

the Bush Administration has tried to stop states like Oregon from taking action to address this pressing problem. Against this headwind, Oregon has made progress, joining with its neighbors to develop a plan to reduce greenhouse gases, and setting a 25% renewable electricity target. Where President Bush has attacked and stymied Oregon's efforts, Senator Clinton will partner with Oregon and protect Oregon's right to lead the way in reducing greenhouse gases. And where President Bush refused to take action at the federal level, Senator Clinton will implement a bold plan to attack the growing climate crisis.

Does that seem like nitpicking?  Stick with me.

About siting rights, Barack says that he:

supports the right of states like Oregon to veto the siting and construction of onshore Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) facilities in their states. Obama believes that any LNG terminals must include strong environmental and safety reviews, a process that is critical for the proposed LNG facilities in Oregon. Obama supports legislation championed by Senator Ron Wyden to preserve Oregon's siting authority and will sign it into law as president.

And that's great, too.  There's just one thing he forgot to mention.  The only reason this is even an issue for Oregon to begin with is because the Bush-Cheney Energy Bill stripped States' of their voice in the siting process.  That's the bill that Barack Obama voted for, while Hillary voted against it.  What a sham.

About wilderness preservation, Barack says that he will:

work with Oregon's congressional delegation to conserve more forest land as federally protected wilderness and as Wild and Scenic Rivers.

Just to give you an idea of how much more substantive Hillary is:

If Congress has not acted on pending wilderness legislation creating wilderness in Mt. Hood, Copper Salmon, and Soda Mountain, Hillary will insist that they complete that task. Then, she will ask the Oregon delegation and the federal agencies to establish Oregon Wilderness Parity by following Governor Kulongoski's recommendations and considering additional wilderness areas and Wild and Scenic Rivers in the rest of Oregon's Cascade Range, as well as the Blue Mountains of Northeast Oregon, the Oregon Coast Range in northwestern Oregon, the Klamath and Siskiyou Mountains of southwest Oregon, and the Oregon desert of Southeast Oregon where, in particular, the Badlands and Spring Basin in central Oregon appear deserving of wilderness consideration.

Sounds like someone did her homework.

About caring for our Veterans, here's what Obama had to say:

As president, Obama will ensure we honor the sacred trust to care for Pennsylvania's 1.1 million Veterans.

Huh?  Folks, it's nothing but a copy-and-paste hack job.  We did learn something, though: Barack cannot stop thinking about Pennsylvania.

Here is the competent version, courtesy of Hillary:

Oregon's National Guard has contributed significantly to our nation's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan with 7,000 individual mobilizations. More than 3,500 Oregon Guard members are scheduled to go to Iraq in 2009. In addition, Oregon has 359,000 veterans within its borders, which is higher than the national average. Yet unlike many states with this level of military involvement, Oregon has no active duty bases, which routinely provide health care for military families. This means Oregon's veterans, Guard members, reservists and their families have limited access to the health care they deserve, making reliable health care through TRICARE even more critical in Oregon than in most states.

I think there's a reason Hillary is a bit more handy with details on this one.  Did you know that in 2005, she got to work with Sen. Lindsey Graham, and the two of them expanded TRICARE?  Through their joint efforts, the program was expanded to include all reservists, even those not currently on active duty.  That's real experience with reaching across the aisle to get something good done.  

Now, I saved the best for last, and it's a whopper.  Speaking about the need to "Clean up our Water", Barack made this solemn pledge to the people of Oregon:

[H]e will continue his leadership in protecting national treasures like the Great Lakes from threats such as industrial pollution, water diversion, and invasive species.

Oregon to Barack: the Great Lakes are not in Oregon!

"When your Oregon plan is an afterthought, it's easy to make 1,700 mile mistakes," said Julie Edwards, Oregon Communications Director. "I hope that if Senator Obama comes to Oregon to debate, he finally learns a little bit about our state."

Ouch.

So there you have it.  Sen. Obama is always urging us to have a serious discussion about the issues.  And Hillary Clinton put her money where his mouth is.  Here was an excellent opportunity for our two candidates to engage in substance.  Instead, Barack's campaign presented a hastily constructed copy-and-paste job, with little or no thought given to the specific issues on the minds of Oregon voters.  Change they can believe in?  Hardly.



Display:


Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 40)

Tip jar for those who appreciate a substantive debate on the issues.

So what do you think?  If you were a legislator in Oregon, or a voter, which plan looks better to you, and why?


by bobbank on Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:54:14 PM EST

Whoa (2.00 / 11)

is that for real? Good god, I hope they circulated that! tipped, rec'd!
by linc on Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa (2.00 / 14)

I linked his plan - no fiction or conspiracy theories.  Just a point by point debate on the issues (well, some of them - there are a bunch of points Hillary's plan covers that Obama doesn't touch at all, but I was focusing on some of the really egregious errors in the Obama document).


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:01:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Holy crap (2.00 / 10)

Its in his Oregon blog!

Here is a link to the site this document is linked to- its completely legit


by linc on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:09:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Holy crap (2.00 / 4)

make sure you save it.  


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and (none / 0)

not that I didn't believe you bob, its just that the storage link for this pdf looked funny to me.
by linc on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and (2.00 / 5)

You know, I'm a financial analyst and in finance we have a term called due diligence.  I appreciate that you followed up on that.  I'm linking this version because I expect the Obama campaign will eventual correct some of their errors.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:26:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and (2.00 / 4)

make sue you make a screen shot.  For some reason my computer will not let me do it.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:43:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

its 8:20 MST (2.00 / 3)

they still haven't touched it! HA!
by linc on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and (2.00 / 2)

oops - eventually*


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and (2.00 / 1)

great job.  I hope you made a copy.


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:39:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: and (2.00 / 1)

You know it. :)


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:24:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for a great laugh! (2.00 / 5)

I started my morning off rolling on the floor at the  "Yes We Can-Can" video that was posted at No Quarter.

And I get to end the day laughing just as hard at BO's "failure to communicate".

No doubt his "Change Pennsylvania Can Believe In" mailer looks identical to the one sent to Oregon.

Hey, he probably has another 48 versions sitting in the wings.  Hopefully someone will bother to read them before they are mailed.

Dooh!!


by CoyoteCreek on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow, awesome work! (2.00 / 6)

Highly, highly recommended!


by sricki on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 4)

Whoops!

Good catch, although I'm sure the mistake was made by some low-level staffer.

It's not really fair to blame Barack Obama for this, but it was funny and fun to read.

Copy and paste is a dangerous thing.  :-)


by TomP on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It is totally fair to blame Obama (1.50 / 6)

This accurately reflects the kind of administration that Obama has.  I have often said that he reminds me so much of Bush.  This is just another way that he reminds me of Bush.


by macmcd on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is totally fair to blame Obama (none / 0)

HaHAHAHAHA.  Because he is the one running the campaign staffed with people solely based on loyalty?  Because he is the one with spurious ties to overseas business deals?  Because he was considered a viable presidential candidate because of his last name and relationship to a past president.  Try again.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It is totally fair to blame Obama (none / 0)

MOJO'D! for the excellent, ASS-kickin post, and for the signature and user name.  Who's your team, BTW?
Go Stillers!  Obama has Dan Rooney, Franco Harris and Jerome Bettis behind him.  Can't lose.
by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Bob, please e-mail me at susanunpc at gmail dot com . Larry Johnson and I would be honored to post your diary at No Quarter. http://www.noquarterusa.net -- please confirm by e-mail, and i'll explain more to you as well.


by susanhu on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you guys get paid to do this stuff? (none / 0)


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ha! (1.25 / 4)

Ha!  And Bob gets an invite to post at the thinly veiled hate site, NoQuarter.  

Will he jump at the chance?  Will he correct any of the false information in his diary?

I can't wait to see what happens next.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OR (2.00 / 3)

I live in OR and was at the organic grocery where they are handing out Obama stickers.  Well, we're all friends so I got into a discussion on the issues and when it comes to actually policy, it is positively amazing how little people who are cheer leading for Obama actually know.  Even more amazing is what they do not know about Hillary in terms of legislation, votes or plans.

When I got into the policy, votes, details they had a pained look on their faces.  Locally, in terms of what we want out here, we're pretty much all on the same page yet when I got into the details of what we want versus where they actually stand or what they do, there seems to be a huge disconnect in Obama's real policy positions, votes versus what people believe he will do.

A serious disconnect.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. (2.00 / 1)

I just got home and read this.  Love the issue-focused specifics.  (And would be happy to read a diary from an Obama supporter who could provide this level of substance...)


by ahw on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fantastic eco exposee Bob! (2.00 / 1)

I always feel like a voice in the wilderness pointing out how terrifyingly Bush-like Obama's energy plan actually is, once you get past the pretty talk (about all the bills we Democrats tried to last year: RPS, PTC 100% auctions of permits etc),but his actual roadmap there is all ethanol, nukes and clean coal, same as the puppet that preceded him. Advisors devote humungous paragraphs to lobbies like in Obama's clean energy plan at his site:
[IMG]http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/ dotcommodity/4.jpg[/IMG]
by dotcommodity on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fantastic eco exposee Bob! (none / 0)

Hey can you send me an email (bobbank at gee mail) - I've been wanting to do a piece like this that puts their energy plans head-to-head, and maybe we could colaborate.


by bobbank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't have the energy to write whole diaries (none / 0)

or collaborate...

but I think you should post this piece at dailykos...are you a member of dailykos environmentalists? prepublication post it to the 800 member group,
http://groups.google.com/group/dailykos- environmentalists?msg=subscribe


by dotcommodity on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:28:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't have the energy to write whole diaries (none / 0)

See? I need your help as an editor!


by bobbank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 12)

The Great Lakes? That's a classic Bush moment right there.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:59:47 PM EST

Re: Oregon Has a Great Lake - (1.75 / 4)

It's called Crater Lake.


by johnnygunn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Has a Great Lake - (none / 0)

Upper Klamath Lake is bigger.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Has a Great Lake - (none / 0)

I mojo'd because I did not think this deserved a TR.  I believe it was tongue-in-cheek.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I forgot to add (2.00 / 8)

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
by linc on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:00:13 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

anyone else get the link to this Obama document to work?

or is it my adobe again?


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:01:06 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

It is working for me.  It might be your adobe acting up. :(


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

oh got it to work,

heh it says that, lol how would you like to be the guy who made this one? bet he never lives it down now, especially if it hits the MSM.

man I would die of shame if that happened,


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:03:16 AM EST

yikes. (2.00 / 9)

sounds like they xeroxed that change document from the one they used in one of the great lakes states....

Oregon is a great place, and deserves a president like HRC.


by 4justice on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:04:23 AM EST

Re: Nitpicking (2.00 / 2)

Not knit picking.

Excuse me for nitpicking, but picking nits off each other is picking lice eggs out of someone else's hair.  Not a very pretty image, eh?

Great diary!
Hillary Clinton has consistently shown a thorough grasp of the issues and how they intersect with local interests.  Obama's campaign has consistently been light on specifics.

With apologies for my nitpicking.


by johnnygunn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:04:28 AM EST

Re: Nitpicking (2.00 / 3)

Cheers.  I will edit.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking (2.00 / 4)

No contest in the substance arena.  Lightweight vs heavyweight - he's way out of his league.


by Tolstoy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

That is shoddy work.  It could be a ridiculous error or could they have meant Great Lakes relating to Chicago(Lake Michigan)?


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:11:59 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 3)

Hey Bob - -

I have been blasted over the past three weeks for suggesting that Oregon may well be a toss-up.  I believe that is so for a number of reasons.  

First, Obama's Western sweep was almost exclusively among caucuses.  Oregon's contest is a primary - a closed primary - and one with mail-in voting.  The difference between neighboring Washington's caucus and primary suggests that the primary in Oregon may be much closer than other western state caucuses.

Second, although Oregon has a significant demographic of people with with higher education who  vote green/progressive, the state also has a large demographic of blue-collar Democrats who often go unnoticed.  Not to mention the east-west split.

Third, Obama as a generic "Anti-Hillary" may well have been far more popular than Obama as Obama - especially in the West.  It is likely that much of the early Obama surge in the West was discomfort with Clinton rather than support for Obama.  At this juncture, Democrats are more informed about Obama.

Again - thanks.


by johnnygunn on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:19:15 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 3)

Interesting.  I think you are hitting an important point in (3).  He could define himself as an "anti-Hillary" when Penn was running Hillary as some sort of militant fascist.  Heck, I didn't even like her back then.  But she has had some good success in changing the Hillary-narrative lately, and she's starting to look pretty competent, and pretty nice after all.  Being an underdog and working hard are generic, but appealing themes to a lot of people.  The challenge for Barack in these remaining states is to successfully define himself now, something that has been made harder by Wright's decision to go postal (fair or not - it makes his task harder I think).


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:32:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary has Zero Chance in Oregon (none / 0)

If Pennsylvania is Hillary Country then Oregon is Obama country.

Obama out fundraises Hillary 3 to 1 in Oregon.

Go Steve Novick for Senate!


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:05:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Oregon isn't Appalachia. Obama actually polls very well among whites and lower-income workers out west. A major false presumption made by the media and the blogosphere is that Obama can't connect well with these groups--but that only holds up in states along the Appalachian mountains, such as PA, Ohio, and Kentucky. It isn't a coincidence.

And I do believe that bigotry is at least somewhat involved in this. I lived for many years in Appalachian Pennsylvania, and some of the whites there have very questionable attitudes towards blacks.


by Covin on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

I can't speak for all (or any, really) Oregonians, but I would imagine that SOME will be likely to vote for someone who DIDN'T vote for a war that has cost 65 of their native sons and daughters their lives.  

Just sayin'.  You know...cause it wasn't mentioned in their plans.


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:33:09 AM EST

we have lost a lot of people to Iraq (2.00 / 1)

too.  PA likes Hillary just fine.  But of course we know she didn't vote for the war and don't demagogue on the issue.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i believe you're mistaken. (2.00 / 1)

hillary voted for the aumf.

then she doubled down & voted for kyl-leiberman.
s.


by synth on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

i would be very surprised if the actual election in oregon is as close as the current polling.
s.
by synth on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:55:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're being too harsh. (2.00 / 3)

Obama was just appealing to Oregonians' natural sympathy towards Pennsylvania's veterans.


by OrangeFur on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:42:46 AM EST

Re: You're being too harsh. (2.00 / 1)

Its Ooo Ray Gunn
And give him some credit...

At least he didn't point to their natural sympathy towards Californians (which does not exist =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:59:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Excuse me but are trying to suggest that a man who lives in Chicago doesn't know where the Great Lakes are?  That's your whopper?  


by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:50:36 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 5)

Incredible, isn't it?


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:52:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Gee Bob, maybe you should send Obama that handy little Wiki link to the Great Lakes.  You'd really teach him a lesson, I bet.


by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:14:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

No one told him that Chicago was on Lake Michigan.  He wasn't in church that day.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Recced (2.00 / 4)

Did you dig this up by yourself ?  Good work !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:52:19 AM EST

Re: Recced (2.00 / 6)

Mmm.. a little birdy pointed me in the right direction. :)


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

well, it was good work regardless (2.00 / 3)

and I would like to know little birdies like that =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:58:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

wow (2.00 / 6)

just wow


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:05:27 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 3)

I don't think it would be harsh to call the whole disaster amateurish. With all that money you think that you could pay someone to pay attention. Well, he's going on and on about that gas relief plan (I think we just experienced the relief part, or maybe the former) and the voting public is just not having it. Knowing that I have already cut down on driving and am making alternative arrangements to avoid using gas, a half of tank of gas is actually a big deal.
by Jeter on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:06:25 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (1.50 / 4)

BO is a hack cut and paste job. Wouldn't it be nice for Democrats to put forward a candidate who can win? Hillary is our only hope.


by seattlegonz on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:39:30 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 4)

I'm sorry but you guys are reading way too much into this.  Through the entire mailer he is talking about a mixture of national policies that Oregonians may be interested in as well as policies that deal directly with Oregon.  There is no claim that the Great Lakes are in Oregon. If that is how you are reading it, you are reading it wrong.


by matchles on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:59:16 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 3)

Good point.  As a Pennsylvania voter, the concerns of Oregon veterans are always one of my top priorities.  I'm glad Oregonians feel the same way about us.  :-)


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:50:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ROFL (1.66 / 3)

yeahsureokayright


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

Great job as always, Bob.  Appreciate and enjoy whatever you tackle.  


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:09:04 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Reminds me of a thing I saw at their web site where some vulgarity was used in defending Rev. Wright among the comments.
I reported it for abuse but I don't know if anything was ever done about it.
I can't believe it ever appeared in the first place. Aren't people paid to police that sort of thing?
god lives within you as you.
by edbrymaharaj on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:20:11 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 4)

Every day I am shocked by the vapid nature and remarkable substantive emptiness of the Obama campaign.  Obama, right now, is a politician who managed to tap into the vein of personality politics with remarkable success, and little more.

I would love to vote for him in 8 years as Hillary's VP.  He clearly has great potential, and his shrewd playing of the primary speaks to that.  Yet clearly, there are some elements to his candidacy that are sorely lacking.  8 years of working, hands-on tutelage under HRC would make him an outstanding candidate.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:27:57 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

This comment literally made me laugh out loud.


by Covin on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (1.83 / 6)

Barack Obama: "Geographic Change We Can Believe In"


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:21:06 AM EST

OMG (2.00 / 4)

This is as nutty as that campaign memo they just sent out with Texas, North Dakota, and Montana in play but Ohio and Florida not even mentioned.

Great diary!  It's so objective and is the exact type of conversation we should be having.  This is a direct comparison of their competence.  As if his inability to handle questions and to give specifics on his plans for "change" didn't already raise eyebrows; this confirms it.  He's a fraud.  

Real change versus imaginary change.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:43:19 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Really good diary. I highly recommend it.


Visit Pagan Power You know you want to!
by Pagan Power on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:54:49 AM EST

Excellent diary, bobbank! Just goes (2.00 / 4)

to show, once again, that Hillary leads where "others" follow - and stumble badly in their effort to catch up.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:03:28 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 3)

obama is bored with the primaries. his staff is just phoning it in. all those states look pretty much alike to them at this stage of the campaign, i guess.


by campskunk on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:44:00 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Oh, this is too funny.  His one way marketing campaign didn't get tweaked for the rest of the primaries.


by LindaSFNM on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:24:27 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

He did something like that to the Indians too, promised they'd have a ear in the white house, as if that would be brand new and they should feel great about it, but he didn't know any specifics.  He doesn't do his homework (or better, he hasn't the staff to do it for him, or worse, they tell him but he doesn't listen).  


just say it: Medicare for All
by anna shane on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:29:02 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

With all that money people have been sending him, it's hard to believe he doesn't have the staff.


by Montague on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

it shows, like experience shows. If he doesn't have the facts, if he proposes something new that's been done, that shows.  


just say it: Medicare for All
by anna shane on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

http://obama.3cdn.net/8a05ad9dbb34ab399a _4bqmvy6ik.pdf

Link to the actual document.


by CMFost23 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:00:50 AM EST

Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (2.00 / 1)

Does that seem like nitpicking?  Stick with me.

After reading your misrepresentations and then the actual document, I don't think you are nitpicking.  I think you are lying and it's shameful.


Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:26:41 AM EST

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (2.00 / 2)

Your lie...

About energy, Barack tells Oregon that he will "Require 25 Percent of Electricity to Come from Renewable Sources by 2025."  And that's great.  Except that Oregon already passed that standard into law, on their own, back in 2007.  I mention this to illustrate the way in which this document is out-of-touch with its audience.

The actual document...

Oregon has been a national leader in energy independence, passing a 25 percent renewable portfolio standard, auto emissions standards and incentives to encourage development of biofuels and energy efficiency. Obama will build on Oregon's successes to move America on the path to energy independence and a cleaner environment.

Yeah, Bob, telling the people in Oregon that they have been national leaders on an issue and that Obama will make it the national standard really shows his ignorance about what Oregon has done and how out-of-touch he is.  What a disappointment you turned out to be.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:32:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (none / 0)

You are only making my point - that it was a copy-and-paste job, with the majority of it simply generic language from his national platform.

You're awfully quick to resort to ad hominem attack these days.  I remember when you were more civil in tone.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (1.00 / 1)

Bob, you lied.  You completely distorted what was in the plan in the example I gave.  There's just no way to conclude otherwise.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (none / 0)

Yet, many concluded otherwise.  Isn't that odd?


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (2.00 / 1)

Many probably didn't click the link to read the actual plan.

You misrepresent what Obama's plan said in the example I gave, say that proves Obama is out of touch, and then post the actual text from Hillary's plan which says almost the exact same thing Obama's plan said.

That is just pathetic.  Grats on making the rec list though!  You've learned the formula!



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (1.00 / 1)

It's been sad to see a reasonable person give in to the anger and bitterness that characterizes so many of your chronies.

I hope you'll find your way back some time.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:18:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (2.00 / 1)

Explain to me how this statement by you is not a complete lie by you, in light of what was actually said in his plan.

About energy, Barack tells Oregon that he will "Require 25 Percent of Electricity to Come from Renewable Sources by 2025."  And that's great.  Except that Oregon already passed that standard into law, on their own, back in 2007.  I mention this to illustrate the way in which this document is out-of-touch with its audience.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (1.50 / 2)

Hey, why don't you man up and fix your diary?
But thanks for pointing out that, since your fellow echo chamber partisans liked it, it must be ok.

You'll need to earn yourself some credibilty if you want to do more than preach to your own particular choir.  Hey, but maybe that's all you want after all, just a little attention.


by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (none / 0)

"Many" conclude that Fox News is a reliable and trustworthy news source. Your logic dictates that this fact alone validates their feelings. Do you agree or disagree? Explain.


by Covin on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (none / 0)

My logic does not dictate that at all.

The argument was made by Map that it would be impossible to disagree with his interpretation.

The fact that people do disagree with his interpretation indicates that it is possible.

I hope that clarifies things for you.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nitpicking? No... seems like lying. (none / 0)

Unfortunately, your reasoning does call for such a conclusion. You defended your diary with similar logic in other comments.

The response in question, yours, was clearly made in the context of the original diary. Where are these "many" people who disagree with map? As far as I can tell, only you have replied to his criticisms. Therefore, you must be discussing the fact that "many" agree with your original diary, and by extension of your logic, must disagree with map's interpretation--since it is at odds with you. Somehow, you've managed to reach this conclusion despite the fact that your diary mentions nothing of map's concerns. So now you're either continuing a trend of apparent dishonesty, or you lack an effective sense of reasoning.

Which is it?


by Covin on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

FREE BOB JOHNSON!!! FREE MBNYC!!!


I like baked beans.
by SpideyDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:59:49 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

What happened to them?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Banned or so I've heard.


I like baked beans.
by SpideyDem on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Ugg.  That's too bad.  wtf?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Bobbank:

Do you live in Oregon?  I'm curious about your take on the state's veto power over the siting of proposed LNG berths, and their associated pipelines.

I work in the environmental consulting field, and am currently writing two separate Enivironmental Analyses/Envrionmental Impact Reports for proposed LNG terminal/pipeline projects.  There are (a least) four or five more projects in the planning stages that I know of.  This is a hot issue on Oregon; such projects are the subject of much controversy across the state.

Regulated by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), these undertakings are already subject to relatively vigorous regulation under the National Enviromental Protection Act (NEPA).  

Can you tell me if the restoration of Oregon's veto authority over project siting overrides the federal government's application of eminent domain?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:17:49 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Hello.  No I do not live in Oregon.  Nor would I consider myself an expert in the subject you raise.  I would just refer you to the text from the two plans:

Hillary's take

One of Senator Clinton's objections to the 2005 Energy bill was that it included a provision giving the federal government greater control over the siting of Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) facilities. Because the bill passed over Senator Clinton's objections, Oregon today is largely a non-entity in the siting process that will decide the fate of Oregon's coastline and hundreds of miles of forest lands, farms, vineyards, and residential neighborhoods, where pipelines may be built. The Bush-controlled Federal Energy Regulator Commission (FERC) now has control over three separate Oregon LNG proposals that are currently pending. FERC has refused to take a serious look at environmental issues and refuses to determine whether Oregon really needs the natural gas in the first place.

Senator Clinton has taken a stand. Governor Kulongoski asked Congress to pass legislation to restore the state's authority in making these siting decisions. Senator Clinton responded, joining with Senator Wyden to serve as the primary cosponsor of legislation restoring Oregon's siting authority over LNG facilities. Hillary intends to sign that bill into law as President. As President, she will restore the right of Oregon to determine its energy and environmental future.

Barack's take

Maintain Oregon Say Over Siting of Liquefied Natural Gas Terminals: Barack Obama supports the right of states like Oregon to veto the siting and construction of onshore Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) facilities in their states. Obama believes that any LNG terminals must include strong environmental and safety reviews, a process that is critical for the proposed LNG facilities in Oregon. Obama supports legislation championed by Senator Ron Wyden to preserve Oregon's siting authority and will sign it into law as president.

It sounds to me as if their positions are identical now (both support the Wyden legislation), but that Barack helped sign into law the bill that got Oregon in this mess to begin with.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

Thanks for the actual text.  Indeed, their respective positions look identical in support of the proposed Wyden bill, but the application of eminent domain for natural gas pipelines and associted facilities was well established prior to the 2005 Energy Policy Act.

See this article from 2001:

In recent days, Vice President Dick Cheney has spoken of the need to give the federal government authority to condemn private property to ease the way for thousands of miles of new power lines -- something that would require the approval of Congress.

This authority is now granted for placing natural gas lines, but not for expanding the electric grid.

I looked into this a little further, and it turns out that Obama voted in support of an amendment that would have given the states authority to site the LNG terminals. Obama voted for the overall bill because it would encourage ethanol, clean-coal technology and other energy alternatives that would reduce demand for foreign oil.

Specifically, Obama (with HRC) was supporting the position of giving states full control over whether to site LNG facilities even though Oregon still has the ability to weigh in on said projects through the Coastal Zone Management Act.  The amendment both Obama and Clinton supported ultimately failed.

The assertion in your diary regarding Obama's position on states rights per facility siting authority don't appear to be entirely accurate.  Credit where credit is due.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:42:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I appreciate the information.  The assertion that Obama's vote contributed to the problem he is proposing to solve still seems to stand, though.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

The assertion that Obama's vote contributed to the problem he is proposing to solve still seems to stand, though.

Sorta.  But not really.  The notion that the 2005 energy bill by-and-large removed the states' ability to veto a FERC siting decision is a weak stance from which to argue.

Oregon's "problem" vetoing siting existed long before the 2005 bill (in fact, well before Obama was elected to the senate) in the form of the application of eminent domain.  I don't see how he can be reasonably castigated in that particular, since eminent domain predates and overides state authority (as I understand it).

However, as an Obama supporter, I have no qualms conceding that the 2005 energy act was (in sum) a lousy bill for the environment.  It was loaded with nasty incentives and legal insulation for coal, oil, and nuke industries.

That said, criticizing Obama on the LNG particular would be akin to asserting that by voting nay on the '05 act, Hillary is against ethanol, clean-coal technology and other energy alternatives that would reduce demand for foreign oil (some renewable elements thrown into the bill to help sway enough democrats to get the bill to cloture).  I could argue this counterpoint, but it wouldn't really be fair.

In the end, US Senators are rarely faced with morally unambiguous votes.  In this case, both Senators Obama and Durbin voted for it--probably because their state produces the corn which is the feed stock for 40% of the ethanol produced in the nation.  They're still supposed to represent the interests of their state, right?

Later, they tried to amend some of the stickier junk (like the LNG siting veto power), to no avail.  The irony is that, even had that amendment (supported by both HRC and BO) suceeded, Oregon's "veto" could still (I think) ultimately be overrided by the application of eminent domain, ultimately rendering it impotent anyway.

That's goverment and politics for you.

:)


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:54:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Well sometimes one does suffer political consequences for one's vote, regardless of what one's intentions were, as Hillary supporters are aware.

But, I would like to better understand how the 2005 bill specifically impacted this.  I know that eminent domain is not something trivial, and to really understand the merits of your defense, I would need to know a lot more than I know now - how frequently eminent domain was actually asserted in this context, how often it was successful, and how that environment was changed by whatever loosening of protocol happened as a result of this bill.

That is quite a bit of homework to do for me.  So in the meantime, I can only ask for your forgiveness as I indulge in diarist's prerogative here, and stick with the "sorta".


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Understood. I'm still wrapping my head around it as well.  I don't have the particulars on hand, but do know that eminent domain has been successfuly applied to force easements facilitating natural gas piplines (among other things), and boy howdy, does that piss landowners off.  Even the spectre of eminent domain can turn the most cordial of public scoping meeting into a veritable riot.  

What I'm still unsure of is wether or not any such cases exist in Oregon, or wether or not they overrode any extant controvening state regulatory authority.

I'd make a diary of the issue, but I fear it's WAY too wonky to attract many readers.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I found this AP article that kind of captures the debate we have been having.

Click.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Nice find.  Thanks for pointing it out.  Looks like this is typically what happens when you get down in the weeds on some of these issues.  They're almost never quite what they seem.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:07:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

I will however look further into the 2005 bill to understand what specific impact it had on this siting issue.  Please let me know if you find anything along those lines.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Well, I found some stuff (posted in reply above), but I'm still a little puzzled about the eminent domain aspect, to wit, wether or not the State veto power would overturn a FERC emeinent domain finding.

Sheesh, I'm glad I'm not a legislator.  This stuff reads like stereo instructions.  :)


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Fri May 02, 2008 at 03:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Diarist commentary (2.00 / 2)

First, thanks everyone for recommending - my first time on the list!

I read several comments along the same lines, so, rather than respond to each individually, I just want to offer a clarification here.

A few comments rightly point out that things like the "Pennsylvania" reference or the "Great Lakes" whopper really just amount to simple typos.  Certainly I do not mean to advocate any belief that making a typo means you are inelligible for President (although many employers would take that stance when reviewing a resume).  Certainly we can agree that clerical errors made by staff do not speak directly to the competence of the candidate.

But I think there is a reason this comparison of the plans has resonated with a lot of you - it isn't so much about typos, but about substance.  In one of my very first comments on this website, I wrote that one of the turning-point moments for me, switching my support from Barack to Hillary, was in reading their two healthcare plans, side by side.  When I completed that comparison, I was left with a distinct impression: only one of those plans looks like a real plan to me.  The other felt like the product of a student that was looking over his classmate's shoulder to find the answer to an essary question on a test.

Now, that's totally subjective, it is my opinion, and you may disagree.

But this was exactly how I felt, again, after comparing these two plans.  One reads like the product of someone who took the time to flesh out the issues most salient to Oregon voters, understood the unique context of those issues, researched the history of those issues, and delivered very direct, precise responses.  The other reads more like a sales pitch, with lots of generic fluff, and a few state-specific demographics or factoids thrown in here and there.

For me, the comparison reinforces my belief that one of these candidates is substantially more qualified for the job of President.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:06:23 PM EST

Re: Diarist commentary (none / 0)

speaking of typo: essary = essay :)


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 01:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Wow!! This Edwards supporter is impressed with Hillary on this one. Great diary!!


by RDemocrat on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:06:57 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Your quote:
"Julie Edwards, Oregon Communications Director. "I hope that if Senator Obama comes to Oregon to debate, he finally learns a little bit about our state."

"Ouch."

Who is Julie Edwards?  Communications Director for Hillary Clinton, that's who.  Failed to mention that, didn't you?
Man this diary is junk.


by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:39:47 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Yea, I know. It must be junk when anything comes out that makes Oblahma look as out of touch as he truly is.

Maybe when I go to Oregon for canvassing, I can see the great lakes.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (1.00 / 2)

Here, try this:
http://www.readnaturally.com/products/im provereading.htm
by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

UH OH...here comes the:

GRAMMAR COPS!!!


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

I can care less about your grammar or typos or spelling errors.  Seriously.  What kills me is that so many of you have totally misread the Great Lakes snippet, including the diarist, and Clinton's communications director.  

There was no gaffe, and nobody was trying to indicate that the Great Lakes were in Oregon for Chissakes!  The comments made in the letter were referring to national issues and not local issues.  But leave it to a Clinton communications director to totally misrepresent.  Not surprised at that, just surprised by the rest of you who should know better.  I guess we're are all now blinded with giddy delight at the slightest suggestion that the other candidate may have made another "gaffe".  Shame.


by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:53:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (1.00 / 1)

Oh, and have a TR :)


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:44:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Lots of folks seem to think this diary is not junk.  Don't be so bitter about it.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (1.33 / 3)

Well, if you made any effort to be honest about who your "whopper" money quote was coming from, than I would have laid off.  


by haystax calhoun on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I'm not interested in what "lots of folks seem to think" about the diary, Bob.  You have blatent misrepresentations in the diary and you know it and refuse to correct them.  I think that says something.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I already answered your accusations directly.  I'm not interesting in the little personal vendetta you have going now.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Actually, you just falsely accused me of ad-hominem attacks but never responded to the substance.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

No, I explained to you that your post only reinforced my point.  Large portions of this document were just copy-and-paste from his national plan, with little state-specific factoids thrown in here and there.  The fact that the document contradicts itself, which is all you pointed out, simply strengthens my case.

Now, if you believe Barack Obama's plan is better, no one is stopping you from making a diary of your own, or even posting here, and explaining why his plan is better.  Or, you could concede that Hillary put forth a more robust document.  Either of these would be constructive responses.

Too lazy for the former, and too stubborn for the latter, you've chosen a third way: attack Bob.  I only wish you would listen more closely to your candidate's rhetoric, and try to offer a substantive take on the underlying issues, instead of obsessing over petty bickering.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

The fact that the document contradicts itself, which is all you pointed out, simply strengthens my case.

The document does not contradict itself and that isn't at all what I pointed out.  Try reading what I posted again.  

The document was quite clear. Obama gives almost the exact same response as Hillary did on Oregons leadership and their desire to expand that to the national level, and yet you somehow spin that into Obama being ignorant about what Oregon has done and Hillary being a genious.  

How does this from the document

Oregon has been a national leader in energy independence, passing a 25 percent renewable portfolio standard, auto emissions standards and incentives to encourage development of biofuels and energy efficiency. Obama will build on Oregon's successes to move America on the path to energy independence and a cleaner environment.

get presented as Obama being ignorant of what Oregon has done and proof that he's out of touch?  How is that possible?

Correct your errors.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:27:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

I swear to God Oregon is so not technically user friendly in comparison to elsewhere.

I have been hunting and hunting to find the Oregon D. primary Senate debate video streams and I cannot.

Anyone know where these are and how come campaigns haven't done a youtube of them?  There are only opening, closing statements.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Fri May 02, 2008 at 04:52:53 PM EST

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)


 What a bunch of amateurs.
Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

I don't quite understand what you are asking for.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

There should be online videos of the debates.  Most political things you should be able to watch after the broadcast.

I cannot find any of the Senate Democratic primary debates online in video format, or even transcript format.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:27:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

I don't understand which debates you have in mind, and how they relate to this, though.

Oh.. do you mean debates on the energy bill of 2005?


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

Hello.  There are Primary debates.  You know those things you watch on TV?  They are broadcast and taped.  Almost every debate you can watch later via Internet streaming video.

You cannot find the Oregon SEnate primary debates.

Now, if you do not understand the terms primary, debates, oregon, I don't know what to do for you.


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

No need to be rude.

I don't understand what the oregon senate primary debates have to do with anything.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oregon Senate Debates, where is video? (none / 0)

uh, if you're not basing your vote on policy positions then I guess not.

Some of us actually do and want to watch them.

Rude, how about clueless, post after post.

How hard is it to understand that I want the Oregon Senate primary debate videos to watch and blog about?


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

"I'm sure the mistake was made by some low-level staffer"

That sounds sooo Bush administration.  Blame the little guy for everything.  A few bad apples and all that.


by cal1942 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:26:02 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I just read Hillary's plan. Thanks for the link.

As far as I see it it is a collection of easy slogans, crafted with deference to urbanite's misconceptions, that will do little to improve lives.

Maybe I'll write a diary with some suggestions that would make real differences. It would be my first. Probably won't.


by wrb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:02:44 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I would welcome the chance to discuss some of the areas in which you found Barack's plan more substantive or areas where you thought he had a better idea than Hillary.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 2)

Im confused.

You point out that Oregon passed the 25 percent requirement on its own, and then act as if Obama is unaware of this, and "sorta" quote him trying to show this. A ton of people read it, don't bother to read the actual words, and agree, and stand up/do a dance/down with the other Democrat.

But the document in actuality says that not only does he know this, but is citing it as something he would like to see applied across the board.

He not only ISN'T out of touch on the issue, but he is aware that they are leading the way on it, and wants to help push it along.

Are you honestly not seeing it, or do you instead prefer to mislead intentionally? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt on comprehension rather than willful deceit.


by RollinsMan on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:10:56 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Exactly-- Oregon's has a history of having the things we pass then invalidated by the Feds. He's right on- he's speaking to real concern & real history.


by wrb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I'm comfortable with both my comprehension and my honesty.  If you have a different interpretation, you are of course welcomed to express it as you have.

Do you feel Barack's plan was better?  How so?


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (1.00 / 5)

Honestly, that you don't seem to understand what I'm saying in spite of how clearly its pointed out makes me think that you do, in fact, get what you're doing and choose to pretend ignorance. Having decided that you'd rather ignore logic than face it, there is zero reason to actually discuss anything with you.


by RollinsMan on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

And first idea for a real plan:

Support tree farming as the ultimate carbon sequestration engine.

Log, use wood everywhere, and replant. The natural way to combat global warming, and restore prosperity to the green belt.


by wrb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:15:19 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Hillary does support reforestation efforts as outlined in her Energy & Climate Crisis plan:

Promoting Reforestation and Slow Deforestation Worldwide: Deforestation, particularly in tropical countries, accounts for twenty percent of annual global greenhouse gas emissions. Unless concerted action is taken, emissions reductions from industry could be replaced by accelerating emissions resulting from deforestation and the reduced capacity of forests to absorb carbon dioxide. Hillary would work to set more rigorous standards to ensure that offsets produce real carbon reductions. Hillary would also pursue debt-for-nature swaps, and would
pursue trading incentives and penalties to reduce illegal logging in developing countries.

That's part of a global initiative.

Back in Oregon:

Senator Clinton will reverse the Bush Administration's efforts to remove protections for our most pristine and valuable public forest lands. Hillary will direct the Secretary of Agriculture and Secretary of the Interior to move aggressively to protect all remaining ancient forests in the western, wet forests of Oregon. Hillary will also direct her Administration to develop plans to appropriately thin in east side, "dry" forests that have suffered from misguided forest suppression, and then move to protect those old growth forests from commercial timber harvest and other extractive activities.

In addition, Senator Clinton will act to fully protect federal roadless areas from road-building and commercial logging.

I also thought this stretch was interesting:

The Oregon Business Plan proposed an initiative to improve Federal Forest Health by bringing together reasonable voices for change in Oregon, a goal that Hillary shares. Her administration will move the federal land agencies away from non-sustainable and unwise practices - like logging the remaining old growth forests and roadless areas - and shift to a greater emphasis on activities that will truly improve the ecological health of our forests while also providing many more sustainable jobs in rural communities.

There are millions of acres of choked, second-growth, plantations and fire-suppressed stands on the federal forests in Oregon. Every year the Federal government spends far too much money fighting fires made far worse by these neglected stands, and not nearly enough resources on managing these neglected stands. Continued failure to manage these stands jeopardizes forests - old growth and younger stands, healthy and unhealthy -- as well as lives, communities, and wildlife.

Hillary will direct her administration to work with environmental, industry and community leaders to pursue a comprehensive and sensible thinning program that will provide sustainable jobs and restore the health of our public resources. Hillary will bring about progress through collaboration with key stakeholders, as we shift from the old model of conflict and litigation to one premised on finding common ground on the region's top priorities for forest health.

Now I didn't quite understand all of this so I had to do some reading.  You probably knew this already, but a second-growth forest is a young forest that is recovering in the wake of a disaster (like a fire).  If these forests are not properly managed, they are basically catostrophic forest fires waiting to happen.  So Hillary is pointing out that if we paid people to help manage these second-growth forests, we would reap a net savings because of the money saved from having to combat forest fires, while creating jobs at the same time.

Nice thinking.  And unique to her plan.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Sounds like more of the Clinton "timber compromise" that gave them some publicity & no one jobs.


by wrb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Are you referring to Bill Clinton?  Please explain.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Yes Bill

When logging -related lawsuits were destroying the rural Oregon working class, Bill staged a high profile get together & compromise.

Which then had no effect, due to lack of follow-through.


by wrb on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:35:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Oregon on Tuesday joined California and New Mexico in a lawsuit against the U.S. Forest Service to stop the implementation of revised roadless rules that would allow possible logging and mining on 58 million acres of untouched national forests.

The new rules, introduced in May by the Bush administration, reversed an edict issued a few days before President Bill Clinton left office in 2001.

Clinton's roadless area conservation rule placed a moratorium on building new roads on some of the most pristine federal forestland left in the West, including almost 2 million acres in Oregon. The regulation essentially removed local decision-making authority from regional foresters to allow logging, mining and road...

So, while he was President, he did take care of Oregon.  The lawsuits you refer to happened in 2005.  Neither was Bill President, nor was Hillary running.  How can you hold that against him?  It sure sounds like you are just reaching for something to throw at Hillary here.


by bobbank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

No more freaking debates between Obama and Clinton.  Lord almighty.  Let it go people!  I don't want to see any more BS debates between two two candidates that basically have are basically in agreement on 99% of the issues.


by RussTC3 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:17:19 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Jeez, I guess that's why there's a preview button. ;)

No more freaking debates between Obama and Clinton.  Lord almighty.  Let it go people!  I don't want to see any more BS debates between two candidates that on the issues are basically in agreement 99% of the time.

That's what that should read.


by RussTC3 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:20:47 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Why do obama supporters gun down posts that bring up valid issues that make their candidate unelectable?

What good does that do anyone?


by BerkekeyGuy on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:38:25 PM EST

You are a freeper. (1.33 / 3)

I support Hillary, but I've HR'd god knows how many of your "ZOMG OBAMA DOES BLOW" comments. Because it's annoying, and because you are, as I said, a friggin' freeper.


by sricki on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great Lakes IS a NATIONAL Treasure (none / 0)

This diarist needs to read better:  "[H]e will continue his leadership in protecting national treasures like the Great Lakes from threats such as industrial pollution, water diversion, and invasive species."

The statement premises that the he will continue his leadership to protect the NATIONAL treasures such as the Great Lakes, and he will continue that protection in Oregon.


by hienmango on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:58:36 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Links don't work in this diary.


by hienmango on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:00:16 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

They seem to be working for me.  Any one in particular?


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Second update from the Diarist (2.00 / 3)

Some Obama supporters are upset because I made his plan look bad.  I did so because, after reading both of them, I concluded that Barack's plan was a slipshod copy-and-paste job that offered little substance, beyond a few demographics sprinkled in.

I appreciate all the thoughtful and constructive criticism that you have provided.  And I know that being insulted comes with the territory here, so that's all fine.

My challenge to you is to write a diary of your own, and explain why Barack Obama's plan is better.  That would be, after all, consistent with your candidate's rhetoric.  Some of you have become the equivalent of backseat drivers - you'll nag and insult others, but you won't put the time in to put forth a positive argument of your own.  I find it telling that only one Barack supporter offered any constructive, positive feedback about their own candidate (pointing out that he had supported an ammendment to the Bush-Cheney Energy Bill of 2005 that would have preserved Oregon's veto power over LNG siting).  And you know what?  I love to meet people like that, because it means I might actually have a chance to learn something from them.

Now, of course, it is your prerogative to behave however you like.  But, I should think it would not be so difficult to put forth a counter-argument based on his merits, rather than your own negative emotional response.  While I certainly do not take any of this angry bitterness personally, it does give others the impression that you don't have an argument on his merits, and that instead you're just rubbing your proverbial bum because your opponent's plan is superior.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:00:16 PM EST

Re: Second update from the Diarist (none / 0)

I don't mind if you think Hillary's plan is better.  In my opinion, both candidates would make fine Presidents and both plans are light years ahead of what the Republicans offer.  

What I do have a problem with is you presenting a totally false picture of Obama's plan, and that's what you did in the example I've cited ad nauseum throughout your diary.

But, forums are a really crappy medium for dialog.  I'm sure in the real world we could have worked out this disagreement in a few minutes time.  I just ask that you try to keep your posting honest.

P.S. - I meant it about NoQuarter.  It's a sewer, and I hope you pass up the offer to post there.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:56:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Second update from the Diarist (none / 0)

It appears that neither Senator Obama nor his staff did very much homework when it came to issues that the people of OREGON care about. They appear to feel that they can hide behind the pretty window dressing of hope, change, and different, without having to provide the substance to tell those that ask EXACTLY what that would look like.
Your comparisons of the attention to detail and the sincere interest in issues that Oregonians care about are what are so striking. I notice that your detractors seem to only be able to argue about inconsequential details.
Great post and response. I hope more voters get the chance to see this diary AND the comments AND your excellent responses.
by pan230oh on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:54:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Please post this on Orange BS.
Great diary.
Hillary is the real deal.
by hypopg on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:13:36 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

Isn't she just the greatest??? Really, again and again, all substance. And she finally looks like she is having fun as well.
That is a great sign.
by rrs11215 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:13:16 PM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

She really does look like she is enjoying herself.  I heard in an interview someone asked her if she were exhausted and she just smiled and said, "I find this very energizing."

It's moments like that when I really love her.


by bobbank on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:24:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

She does look happy, when imagining a futher Clinton rape of Oregon.

What did the Clinton timber plan achieve?

For us?


by wrb on Fri May 02, 2008 at 10:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

I already responded to your false allegation above.  Please tone down your rhetoric - you are making your intentions too obvious.


by bobbank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:14:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (none / 0)

This whole diary makes me sick.  I know I'm not the only one who realizes that you can't base your decision on who to vote for based solely on a couple typos in a copy-pasted mailer that most people threw out the second they got.  Ultimately, Obama's campaign (note that Obama probably never even saw the actual mailer before it was sent, or if he did he certainly wouldn't have time to pour over it) probably cut some corners on printing costs and did an Oregon and Pennsylvania print all at once.  God forbid the BO campaign make a few little mistakes.  I mean, Hillary lied through her freaking teeth for weeks about "Sniper-gate," but whenever someone brings that up the HRC supporters get all bitchy and say she "misspoke."  Do you not see the hypocrisy here?  I can't believe this is on the rec'd list, I think I'm done with MyDD... and if Hillary "wins" (i.e. steals) the nomination, I'm also done with the Democratic party.


by brathor on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:29:23 AM EST

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

I'm grateful that I earned one of your nine posts on this site.  As I clarified in my first commentary, this is not really about typographical errors, but about lack of substance.  Reading the two plans it is very clear that one is more thoughtful, more substantive, than the other.

I think if all I had done was to make a diary about typo's, it would not have been rec'd.  But this really does go to the notion of Barack as a stage trick, smoke and mirrors, and I think that is why it resonates.

Now, why is it that you do not make a positive argument for Barack's Oregon plan, on its merits?  Why can no Obama supporter here seem to be able to do that?  I have found plenty of positive things to say about my candidate's position.


by bobbank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:20:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't wait 'til I get my ballot... (none / 0)

It should arrive any day now; maybe today.  Then I can vote for Obama!  I live in Lane County.  He'll win easily here.  There are so many Obama bumper stickers around.  I haven't seen even one for Hillary.  Good sign for Obama voters.  

bobbank, I'll give you some credit... your posting is some great propaganda.  However, it falls far short of what would be considered a good opinion piece.  You fail to mention the many negatives about Hillary.  You barely touch any of the positive facts about Obama.  There is no weighing of the strengths and weaknesses of the candidates and it's completely unbalanced.  If you worked at Fox News you'd get an A.  If you were writing this piece for a high school entry-level journalism class you'd receive a C+ (credit for grammer).  


by froggyman on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:03:54 PM EST

Re: I can't wait 'til I get my ballot... (none / 0)

So why can't you tell me about the positives of Barack Obama's Oregon plan, or the negatives of Hillary's Oregon plan?

Too lazy to think?  Stick to personal insults then; they're easy.


by bobbank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can't wait 'til I get my ballot... (none / 0)

We live in the United States of America.  Certain decisions are made on a federal level.  Others at the state level.  And others on a county/city level.  I care what the President has in mind for the entire country.  I don't want a President to come into a particular state and telling them what to do.  For one, that would be very time consuming and takes away from national and foreign issues faced by the country.  

A certain sign of pandering is when a Presidential candidate comes in and promises different things to different states.  Do you want pandering?  Or someone who will tell you what you need to hear even when it might not be good?  I prefer the latter.  Regardless of what state I live in, I'd rather have done what's best for the nation than what's best for any one particular state.


by froggyman on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can't wait 'til I get my ballot... (1.00 / 1)

One more thing... I've stopped listening to Hillary because when I do I get bitter -- just like whenever I hear Bush speak.  

Pop quiz: How can you tell she's lying?  
Answer: Her lips are moving.  She's the pander-queen.  


by froggyman on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Change Oregon Can Believe In? (2.00 / 1)

Great, great post.  This is the reason I support HRC.  She is prepared and aware of the complexities of issues.


by TinaH1963 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:58:17 PM EST


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