Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter

Last week, Chris Cilizza posted excerpts from an Obama electability memo (h/t notlarrysabato in Breaking Blue) sent around to superdelegates. The memo touts Obama's ability to expand the map as evidence that he's a stronger nominee in November than Hillary Clinton.

"His ability to expand the Democratic base, and his ability to capture the crucial Independent vote, make him a stronger general election candidate than Senator Clinton, who would enter the fall campaign with the highest unfavorable ratings of any nominee in half a century," reads the memo. OUCH!

The memo goes on to detail polling from across the country that makes their case -- breaking down the map into "big states," "traditional battlegrounds" and "making new states competitive."

Here's how the memo breaks down the states within those categories:

Big States: California, New York, New Jersey and Illinois.

Traditional Battlegrounds: Iowa, North Carolina, Oregon, Wisconsin, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

New States: Colorado, North Dakota, Virginia, Montana and Texas.

Putting aside for a moment the absurdity of placing North Carolina on par with such blue states as Oregon, Michigan and Pennsylvania in the "traditional battleground" category, notice a couple states missing from the analysis altogether?

Two states that are not mentioned in the Obama memo are Florida, the key battleground in the 2000 presidential race, and Ohio, the Florida of the 2004 contest.

Any Democrat making a case for his electability had sure better address the scenes of the crime from 4 and 8 years ago but here instead, it's as if Obama is saying, well...that Florida and Ohio just don't matter.

It's a tough case to make to Democrats, it seems to me, that Florida and Ohio are irrelevant in the scheme of the presidential race, but it's no wonder why he'd ignore the states. According to the latest Quinnipiac University polls, taken April 23-29, not only does Hillary Clinton crush John McCain in these two states, but Obama comes up just short within the margin of error against the Republican.

Florida
Clinton (D) 49%, McCain (R) 41%
McCain (R) 44%, Obama (D) 43%

Sample: 1,411 Florida voters. Margin of error: ±2.6%.

Ohio
Clinton (D) 48%, McCain (R) 38%
McCain (R) 43%, Obama (D) 42%

Sample: 1,127 Ohio voters. Margin of error: ±2.9%.

As the Quinnipiac analysis puts it plainly:

"If the super delegates are looking at electability, these results could be a shot in the arm for Sen. Clinton. No one has won the White House since 1960 without carrying two of these three swing states, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania. And she clearly is running much better against Sen. McCain than is Sen. Obama, at least for now," said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

Now, I've said before that, while it makes it more difficult, either Democrat can win without Florida or Ohio. You add New Mexico and Iowa to the states John Kerry won and the Democrat would need only 6 more EVs to reach the magic number of 270. Clinton could deliver that in Arkansas (6 EVs) and Obama in Colorado perhaps (9 EVs.) But when you're living in world in which the nomination is essentially in the hands of superdelegates who are likely to be swayed by traditional electability arguments, I suspect Florida and Ohio matter indeed.



Display:


It's not who can be (2.00 / 6)


  elected now, it's who can be elected in November.

 It's amazing how both sides simply drool over polls that show their candidate ahead against McCain NOW!!

  Those polls are worthless for Clinton in OH and FL,

  Just like they are worthless for Obama in WI and NJ.

   Knock it off.

   And for what its worth, I don't see anything in your post that suggests they are saying FL and OH don't matter.

   The point of the piece was about expanding the map while holding the "base states"

   Neither OH or FL are base states, they are genuine tossups. It goes without saying that they will be challenged.


by southernman on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:48:49 PM EST

Re: Stupid Post of the day (1.60 / 5)

southernman,

So you want everyone to ignore all current polls & all historical records from any state?

So you want all of us to ignore the fact that every single Republican who won the White House, Won My state of Ohio?

So you want all of us to ignore the fact that No Democrat has even won the Presidency in the last 40 years without carry Florida.

So you want all of us to ignore the fact that the only Democrat to ever win the White House in the last 30 years won Florida Twice, & Ohio Twice ?

It is people like you that gave us McGovern, Mondale & Dukakis.

Whatever logic or lack of it that you have is based purely on " Emotions" & " Hope"

Its the most stupid posting of the day.


by labanman on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid Post of the day (2.00 / 4)


   Nope. I want you to ignore the polls that measure what would happen if the election were held today.

  The election is not being held today. It's being held in November.

  So what if Clinton (or Obama) can win today. It's worthless. Who can win in November?

  My position is based on simple logic. Don't ignore the states...but to nominate Clinton (or Obama) b/c they lead in polls NOW for an election in NOVEMBER is incredibly stupid.

  Polls change. Are you so blind that you don't recognize that.


by southernman on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid Post of the day (none / 0)

I actually see that Obama close in Florida means it'll probably be in play and is definitely better than he was running against McCain in the state.


by niksder on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Silly, Clinton didn't win florida in 1992 (2.00 / 2)

and he won ohio by 1 pt in 1992.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

clinton also destroyed the florida democratic... (none / 0)

party in order to win the state in 1996.  that destruction laid the seeds to buddy mckay's defeat in 1998 -- despite downright gallant attempts to preserve the democratic party in florida after the presidential campaign destroyed it -- and bush's victory in 2000...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid Post of the day (2.00 / 4)

In May 1988, Dukakis led Bush by 10 points.  Was Dukakis electable?

In April 1992, Bush led Bill Clinton by 10 points (and Clinton had just 28%).  Was Bill Clinton a big loser?

How about our "electable" candidate John Kerry?  How did that work out?

The sad thing is, electability arguments are not only extremely unreliable, but cowardly.  Democrats are in the mainstream of America.  We don't need to try to sneak someone past the electorate to win.  Let's choose the candidate we want, not who we think somebody else wants.


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stupid Post of the day (none / 0)

That's why it's called the Democratic primary.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:33:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't help but get the feeling that Obama is (1.66 / 3)

being crammed down our throats by someone..

The Obama folk on here who completely ignore points that people bring up here about Obama's weak platform and deceptive campaign and just go on and on about the same crap... aren't helping the matter..

Of course Ohio and Florida matter. Every state matters.

Why is Obama blocking a revote in Florida and Michigan?


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Comprehensively cover 100%, not only the healthiest 80%
by architek on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can't help but get the feeling that Obama is (2.00 / 2)

I can tell you who is "cramming" him down your thoat...

The Voters, the majority of voters in Democratic primaries and caucuses that voted for him.  

I'm continually shocked by the folks who don't seem to grasp that Hillary is not entitled to the nomination...  


by SKI on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the voters don't count... (2.00 / 1)

let's be very clear here: the democratic party is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the clinton family until someone wrests it out of their cold, dead hands.

apparently, this is happening earlier than anyone imagined...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the voters don't count... (none / 0)

You have it backwards.  The Clintons are a subset of the Democratic Party, not the other way around.


by Montague on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

your argument is with them... (none / 0)

and those who support the clintons.  i'm one of those people (southern progressives) that the clintons purged from the democratic party in florida in the mid 90s.  i've gotten used to hearing that i'm not a democrat because i actually care about education and integration...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can't help but get the feeling that Obama is (none / 0)

...and I'm continually shocked by the folks who think Obama has already won it, given that he hasn't.


by slynch on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah, that one percent chance that hillary... (none / 0)

could win means we ought to take her seriously.

until she's mathematically eliminated, she could theoretically win.  but that doesn't mean that we should take those chances seriously.  hillary's only chance of winning meant that she had to win by 15% points in pennsylvania, now she has to win by 20% points in all the remaining primaries.  she won't and we need not pretend like she will.  her wins will be, for the most part, minimal, and superd's are coming out for barack in the slow drip that will mathematically eliminate hillary...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah, that one percent chance that hillary... (none / 0)

you've simply made numbers up here.  She didn't need to win by 15% in PA.  She doesn't have to win by 20% in the remainder of the primaries, and her chance of winning isn't 1%.  She may not win, but it certainly isn't even close to being over, and it's not clear at all who will be the nominee.


by slynch on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

math clearly isn't your strong suit... (none / 0)

i understand that, since your candidate has run a shitty campaign, your need to lash out at reality and perhaps even slip into delusion.  the first two numbers came out of news reports (which i understand why you avoided).  the 1% number is high.  hillary has no chance of legitimately winning the democratic nomination.  zero.  i was giving her the benefit of the doubt.

it may not be clear to you who is going to be the nominee, but it is clear to the rest of us.  hillary may indeed tear barack down, but she's got no chance of taking the nomination away from her.  there is no possible path to the nomination left for her.  that's true regardless of whether you choose to recognize it...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Trust the Party (none / 0)

Each voter hears the arguments and makes their own choice.  Obviously you have pretty strong opinions; others have strong opinions in the opposite direction.  We let the voters settle it.  Pretty much by definition, the voters are never wrong in a democracy even if they later regret their decision - if a candidate and their campaign can't convince the voters they are right, they deserve to lose.


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can't help but get the feeling that Obama is (2.00 / 1)

I'm not ignoring anything, I just happen to not agree.

I could run down my laundry list of reasons why I don't want Clinton to be the nominee and I'm confident you would not agree. Not that you were ignoring my points, just that your views differ.


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Gawd, remember when Clinton was in 3rd place (none / 0)

remember when he was down in the mid 20s, behind Perot and Bush.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gawd, remember when Clinton was in 3rd place (none / 0)

Yes.  I think I remember that, mathematically, he still had a chance to win.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If John W. McCain taps Crist for V.P. forget Fl. (2.00 / 1)


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If John W. McCain taps Crist for V.P. forget (none / 0)

The gay rumors around Crist will keep that from happening.  No chance.


by erzeszut on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point, Todd (2.00 / 1)


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:49:59 PM EST

Glory of America? Are you joking? (none / 0)

A little over the edge if you ask me.


by eddieb on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Glory of America? Are you joking? (none / 0)

I think it's a bit extreme too.

But she is the most admired woman in America.  So who knows.


by reggie44pride on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Traditional Arguments (2.00 / 1)

... are money arguments.
and down ticket arguments.

more than a top ticket victory, these people want their seats!


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:50:46 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Funny isn't it when the shoe is on the other foot. All that is going on here is Obamas team is doing the exact opposite of the Clintonistas. Tehy are making a pitch to the states Clinton has said Don't count! Eva here the phrase "What comes around goes around". Get over it Obama will work to win ALL 5o states and thats really good news for the party and America.


by eddieb on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:52:29 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 4)

soooo because Obama see a different path to the nomination that doesn't involve Ohio/FL you are attacking him for it?

you should really read my post I did earlier I already showed how Obama can get to 270 without Ohio or Florida.

wow attacking Obama for having a different map then Hillary Clinton? yeah ok.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:52:45 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 3)

How dare any Democrat think outside the DLC's time dishonored and battle weary "14 state" strategy!


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 1)

This is just ridiculous to attack him over FL/MI is one thing.

but to actually attack Obama because he a different path to the nomination that all current polling actually shows has a legitimate chance? so instead of relying on 2 states that got us stuck with bush, they want to try a few new states, and Obama's polling with AA's makes this possible so we are attacking him for it.

this place literally wants to be the Daily kos version of Hillary supporters. i mean thats where we are now, now we are just LOOKING for reasons to attack the other candidate.


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 1)

That's why many come here -- to refute the self serving and destructive nonsense of Hillary's doomed campaign.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

The problem with the "Forfeit OH/FL" strategy is that it's as weak as the weakest link in the chain.  

God forbid McCain wins Colorado or Virginia or New Hampshire or Iowa or New Mexico or Pennsylvania or Oregon or Nevada or Montana or North Dakota or Michigan.  I hear a lot of Michigan Democrats are pissed that Obama doesn't want to count their votes.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

false premises lead to false conclusions... (none / 0)

forfeit ohio?  who is arguing that.  please provide a direct link to a candidate or campaign memo to support your answer.

your take on michigan voters does not jive with either the polls in the state or my own experience in the kalamazoo-grand rapids corridor, so i'd suggest you misheard (or listened to some idiotic hillary supporter who bought hillary's argument that barack can't win)...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: false premises lead to false conclusions... (none / 0)

Ohio is not even listed in Obama's campaign memo.  Considering he typically polls so poorly there, it's not hard to see why.  Ohio with its Appalachian influence is very hostile to Barack Obama.  Western Pennsylvania is likewise.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am actually surprised just how well Obama (2.00 / 1)

is doing in these Quinnipiac polls.  I am very surprised that Obama is close to in Florida and Ohio when he was behind before in this states.  So he is getting closer there.

Good news for Obama in Pennsylvania in which despite Bittergate he is beating McCain in that state.

Obama is holding his own in these states despite Wright and Bittergate.


by puma on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:55:27 PM EST

Re: I am actually surprised just how well Obama (none / 0)

you should be surprised.  obama isn't doing that well in florida (in the entire state) and strickland has always said that the democratic nominee will win his state (because republicans have serious issues in ohio).

look at it this way: these numbers reflect hillary at her height and barack at his worst.  we know that hillary can't do better; the real question is, can barack?


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:01:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now Puma (none / 0)

There you go again, making sense.  Like the important states, polls become important once they show Hillary ahead, silly.  Missouri's not important, New Jersey is.  Gallup last week was a caucus poll.  This week it's a primary in a big state like New York.  Rasmussen is Ohio, but Newsweek (large Obama lead)is kinda like Idaho, Maine and Wisconsin.  So let's get with the program and remember the polls count when she's ahead.  In fact, Supers should pledge to HRC today and let's end this thing for Hillary in all her gloriousness.


by niksder on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

You forgot this part...

"If Sen. Obama is the Democratic nominee, he's in a tight race with McCain in Florida and Ohio, but takes Pennsylvania."


A useless "Community Organizer" from Pennsylvania as noted by Republicans, Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin
by hootie4170 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:56:43 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 1)

If Obama holds on to Kerry's states, recaptures Iowa and New Mexico, and takes Colorado and Nevada, that's 278 electoral votes without either Ohio or Florida.


by KTinOhio on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:56:48 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

That's the problem with the Obama math.

Too many "if's" and too many "ands."


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's actually strategically sound... (none / 0)

and unlike the hillary campaign blueprint, they actually have succeeded in what they set out to do.  preferring a failed campaign to a successful one isn't exactly rational...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's actually strategically sound... (none / 0)

You're trying to change the subject.  We're talking about the electoral map in 2008, not the primary process.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:17:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i apologize for confusing you... (none / 0)

i was talking about the electoral map in the general as well, and using the fact that the obama campaign is a highly-disciplined, highly successful campaign who has beaten a democratic heavyweight (in large part because she ran a shitty campaign and couldn't put together a decent campaign in the 8 years that she devoted to it) makes them much more likely to win the general election -- despite all the damage that hillary and penn have done to the democratic nominee's campaign.  if you can't see the relevance, then i can't help you...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i apologize for confusing you... (none / 0)

"they actually have succeeded in what they set out to do"

This is a past-tense reference to the primary.  It has little relevance on the General unless you want to talk about how Hillary's new approach since March has blown Obama out of the water and how Obama not only failed to "close the deal" but it's looking like he's going to lose if FL's and MI's pledged delegates get seated at 50%.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yep... (none / 0)

it's easy to have confidence in obama's campaign and their ability to win.  i sincerely doubt that obama's campaign, which has more seats on the key committees than clinton's, would allow michigan and florida to alter the ultimate outcome.  but then, i don't engage in fairy tales, so i'll leave it up to you to explain your fantasy...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri May 02, 2008 at 05:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep... (none / 0)

The RBC leans Hillary.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:17:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

And HRC has Florida in the bag?


by KTinOhio on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:45:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

GE Polls this far out are worthless (2.00 / 2)

Also, Hillary's numbers are inflated because the Republicans haven't even started to run against her yet.

These polls represent her high-water mark.


by Angry White Democrat on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:57:06 PM EST

From that article: (2.00 / 2)

The Republican attacks mirror private disdain for Obama that, while still far from Clinton hatred at its zenith, is rapidly intensifying. The view among McCain aides and other Republicans is that Obama has gotten a free ride from the press despite what they see as a record of little substantive accomplishment.

The irony is staggering.

I guess McCain's ride isn't free... he still has to treat the press to bar-b-que occasionally.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just goes to show you (none / 0)

what a good dry rub can get you.


by Angry White Democrat on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i would love to see the geographic breakdown... (none / 0)

in florida.  quite frankly, the numbers for obama are too high.  this poll has to have been heavily drawn from "clinton country" (dade, broward, palm beach and hillsborough) because there is no way that barack is polling that close to mccain in the rest of the state.

neither democrat can win florida (although i want to see democrats campaign there, building for the future, as if they could win -- but not count on winning a state that they won't win).  the institutional problems that florida's democrats have (a deeply divided party, an immature one, one that is pretty much non-existant in the all-critical i-4 corridor, a party that has let its activist base lapse because they believed in addressing education and integration as opposed to what the dlc wanted to talk about) always present promise of electoral success in the spring while ending up in defeat in the fall.  until the party of clinton can reconcile with the party of askew, democrats will continuously end up on the losing end of this equation...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:57:18 PM EST

Re: i would love to see the geographic breakdown.. (none / 0)

You're  wrong about Florida McCain is as popular as Bushbag and he's going down big no matter who is the Dem. You can take it to the bank!


by eddieb on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i'm trying to be rational... (none / 0)

charlie crist is much more popular than hillary or anyone else.  crist delivered florida for mccain in january and there is absolutely no sound reason to believe that he won't do the same in november.

and, no, i don't count wishful thinking as a sound reason (even if you are willing to gamble the white house on it)...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 3)

I wish the Supers would see right through these letters that both camps send out in an attempt to woo them over.  The truth is what they could do, and what they will do are two different things.  Anything can come up during the general.


This administration is not sinking. This administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg!
by venavena on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:03:02 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

They probably can see right through these letters - they weren't born yesterday, they know politics, and know both campaigns are trying to spin them.  I guess if one campaign spins the other has to provide equal and opposite spin, but the whole exercise is pretty silly.


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i don't think these battleground memos... (none / 0)

are really aimed at the undecided superd's.  they get more individual attention.

instead, these things seemed to be aimed at those superd's who have decided, to help them frame the debate to the campaign's benefit.  and you'd be surprised at how easily people swallow any reasonably argued position to help make their case to all the people who disagree with them...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:30:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Well if you want to count Florida and Michigan and Ohio it looks like Obama could win all of them.  With all the bad news that Obama has been getting and he is still even with McCain in Florida and Ohio, when he was 10 pts behind McCain in Florida before Rev Wright came up again, I would say that it will be a blowout for the dems with Obama as the nominee.  Obama only needs 283 delegates to win the nomination.  Yoo Hoo!


by Spanky on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:03:28 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 1)

Even Axelrod is not sure how his candidate will actually win the Electoral College Derby in November.

Its based purely on " Hope of a New Map".

When your party has such a big advantage due to the severe unpopularity of Bush, why in the world do you need to experiment some " New Map" just to win?

This is the problem with the liability of a candidate who Cannot carry any southern state, a candidate who could realistically lose some Big Blue states, & lose the entire southwest rocky mountains & the entire midwest except for Illinois.

What the hell are democrats doing ?

We have the advantage, yet, we have to RE-Invent the Electoral Map just to somehow hopefully win.


by labanman on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:07:55 PM EST

entire midwest? (none / 0)

There's no question that Obama polls better in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa, for example.  Obama's memo is not credible since it leaves out FL and OH, but neither is your comment.


John McCain is a Bush ally on Social Security.
by John DE on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:11:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 1)

Unfortunately the Obama fans will not accept this logic. To give them credit no one thought Obama would snatch it away from her. The problem is the snatching is the result of some very clever strategic planning built around wins in not very representive caucuses, the screwed up Dem del apportionment system compounded by FL and MI, and big wins based on an ethnic vote in certain states. Unfortunately none of these cirmcumstance hold good in the general.  


by ottovbvs on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what a stupid assumption... (2.00 / 1)

it is hillary's supporters who seem to have difficulty adjusting to the 21st century, and the end of her cult of personality.  to be fair, no one could have predicted that she would run such an awful campaign -- virtually a textbook on what not to do -- even though she's always underperformed in her own races...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:00:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

...s (2.00 / 1)

Funny how to Clinton the states that Obama Wins don't matter but if obama doesn't mention 2 of them he is the one that isn't inclusive.


by Abraham Running For Congress When I Turn 25 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:15:08 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Anybody who puts FL in the bank for Hillary is overlooking the strong possibility that Gov. Christ will be McInsane's mate.

So where would she make up those e-votes that she and her propagandists are already counting?


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:17:48 PM EST

crist will deliver florida regardless... (none / 0)

i don't get the impression that crist wants to be veep, let alone run for it...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton proved Ohio and Florida are unnecessary (2.00 / 3)

In 1992, Bill Clinton defeated an incumbent president by 5.5 pts, racking up 370 electoral votes.

Guess what: he won without Florida.

1. Clinton lost Florida 41-39

2. Clinton won Ohio, but barely, by 1.8%

His number in Ohio lagged behind his national numbers.  

3. Ohio carrried 21 E. votes.  If clinton had lost Ohio, his victory would still have been a hefty, 349 E votes.

Therefore, Clinton proved in 1992, that a Dem can win, and win big, without Florida and Ohio.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:18:39 PM EST

Here's the citation (2.00 / 2)

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/

scroll down to 1992.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:19:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Slam dunk! (2.00 / 3)


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton proved Ohio and F (2.00 / 1)

And who will be the third party candidate who is going to take was it 16% of the vote? Think about it.  


by ottovbvs on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton proved Ohio and F (2.00 / 1)

It's a baseless assumption that Perot took all of his votes from Bush.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton proved Ohio and F (2.00 / 1)

He didn't take all his votes from Bush. That's been proven wrong. It varied from state to state. Perot probably helped Clinton carry GA and MT but probably made OH closer than it should have been.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You sound like a Republican (none / 0)

Watching Fixxed News musta warped ya.

It's the right wing loons who try to delegitimize Clinton's victory by saying Perot's vote would have gone to Bush.  

by perpetuating this myth, you're unworthy of Hillary Clinton.  

Once again: Clinton won by 5.5%, Perot receive 19%.  Bush would have needed to pick up Perot's votes,  by a 2 to 1 margin (13 to 6).  Exit polls showed Perot got received his vote from Dems and half from Repugs.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (2.00 / 3)

Yeah but he won states that we aren't going to win this time like Montana. There's no Perot to split some of the GOP votes in those states so while your point is somewhat valid it's not completely valid. Clinton also carried GA in 1992 and neither Obama nor Clinton will carry it in Nov. Taking those things into consideration, it is imperative that we have a candidate who can at least hold the Kerry states and add some more states. Right now Obama isn't even holding the Kerry states and that's the problem.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

If you want to rely on the polls six months out (which I don't BTW), you can't be selective about the Kerry states.  Clinton is losing in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Oregon according to the polls.  Is that a problem?


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

Sure it's a problem but she has more states to compete in. Look at the EC for further confirmation. Wildly betting on states that haven't voted Dem in decades is more likely to produce an electoral loser than betting on a candidate who has double digit leads in swing states that have previously been blue.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

She doesn't have more states to compete in - just different ones.  As far as the electoral college is concerned, they have pretty much equal potential in a close election, but get there in different ways.


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton (none / 0)

No, I see Obama as having a much less chance because his states are more likely to be influenced by GOP 527s due to the fact that they have been red. Most recent poll has him losing NH. He would probably have to fight to keep blue states. If he's polling even with McCain in MA then he has some serious problems.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

0o0o0o, the mythical fear factor... (none / 0)

how much money do those 527s have???

it's nice, of course, to speculate about their potential power if they ever raise money but hardly likely to have the same influence given that barack won't have the same constraints that kerry had.

but they got you!  the funny thing is that you're more scared of them for barack then you are for hillary, which isn't logical.  hillary unites the right while she divides the left.  conservatives have spent 16 years preparing to defeat hillary.  they have tons of footage showing her flip-flopping on every conceivable issue.  but we should be more afraid of them because barack will be the nominee???

that's illogical...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lets start with the 2004 map (none / 0)

Lets start with the 2004 map.

Bush 286 Kerry 251

Nev, NM, CO, MI, VA, and Iowa are worth 50 EVs.

And surprise of surprises, Obama currently keeps McCain below 50 in AZ (47-38).  Can you imagine how the echo chamber would be shouting if Obama was below 50 in his home state.

There was also a shocking poll last week showing Obama leading McCain in IN 49-41.

http://www.wthr.com/global/Story.asp?s=8 224749

So, yes, it's not easy to win without Ohio and Florida, but it can be done, and there are some ripe purple prospects.

Lets remember, six months before the mid-term elections, no one thought we'd run the table and capture the senate, knocking off all those incumbents.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lets start with the 2004 map (none / 0)

Several red states have Democratic senators and/or governors, and several blue states have Republican senators and/or governors.  It's completely different in the presidential race.  People don't look at the prez race the same way they look at their local races.  After all, on these red/blue maps, it's always about the prez race, not the senators and governors.


by Montague on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:19:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (2.00 / 1)

The other thing here is that Obama is never going to win a southern state. NC in their list of possibles, is Axelrod crazy. What worries me is not just the must wins of OH, Florida etc but two or three trad Dem states which would be in play. PA which I know well is at the top of the list although NJ is also a wobbler. Believe me with McCain as the candidate we're going to have to fight like hell to hold onto PA. And please don't quote Rendell on Obama's chances. What else is he going to say. I've long thought this was a potential big deal and the numbers were seeing from the actual contests confirm it. If he has a bad week next week it's probably a game changer. If he has a good week he's home for the nomination.    


by ottovbvs on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:36:27 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Axelrod thinks Obama's going to win in Texas and North Carolina??

He's out of his cotton-pickin' mind.


by dembluestates on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama (2.00 / 1)

While I agree with others that the polls are far out you have to consider the demographics. The demographics are much more representative imo for the general election. The reason we have lost election after election is because of the white working class vote. Obama does poorly with these voters. What two demographic groups did Obama carry in PA? IIRC, whites making over $150,000 per year and AA's. That's the kind of coaltion that doesn't produce winning general election candidates.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:44:02 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Obama's memo is as believable as the one that Giuliani tried to pass around saying 45+ states are in play for him.

Really, North Carolina as a traditional battleground state? Texas as a new state - right. Obama better worry about Ohio and PA and holding some of the traditional industry states.


by gomer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:48:05 PM EST

Again...let me get this straight (none / 0)

Obama is competitive in two states the Democrats have lost (I know, I know) the last two election cycles plus he expands the field to state that haven't been competitive for a generation...

Against a candidate who is short on funds...

Damn Obama! Damn him straight to hell!!!

[/sarcasm]


by Nazgul35 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 03:53:15 PM EST

yes, but it is hillary... (none / 0)

she has to win.  she just has to.  there is nothing that is going to far as long as she wins.  that's an article of faith for her supporters.  it's a religious commitment, not a logical position...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

First off, regardless if Clinton or Obama is the nominee, the Democrats will win the White House back in 2008.  Period, end of story, people need to stop beating on one candidate to pump up the other.

Secondly, Obama and Clinton will carry Ohio with ease.

Thirdly, I'm tired of Florida.


by RussTC3 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:02:16 PM EST

thank you... (none / 0)

florida is tired of being embarrassed by democrats...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Hillary Clinton AND Terry McCaullife both said, specifically, the votes from Michigan and Florida will not and should not count.  Enough said.


by bradical on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:11:45 PM EST

that was then... (none / 0)

this is now.  republicans have 16 years worth of video of hillary saying one thing, then saying another.  and they didn't collect it with the plan of letting it stay on the shelf...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Now THAT memo's a fantasy.  Anyone who thinks Texas is gonna be blue in 08 is dreaming.  We're trending that way in local/state elections, but it's not going to happen this year. We've got a long way to go.

We'd count it a huge success if we can get Noreiga elected to replace Cornyn.


by TxKat on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:17:29 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

I want all 50 states to be visited.  Enough with the America vs. Jesusland maps.


by RussTC3 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

It's been a long dry spell here and we could use some help.

But that's not the issue.  

For the Obama campaign to intimate that Texas is a "New" target state they are somehow going to magically convert to blue,... that's just fantasy.


by TxKat on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree... (none / 0)

it is a fantasy.  but that doesn't mean that obama shouldn't try to force mccain to spend money in texas, especially since obama seems to have unlimited financial resources.  but there's an even more important reason for obama to try to compete there (other than because he can).  and that's to assist the downballot democrats.  if there's one thing that this competitive primary should teach us, it's that competition drives up turnout.  increasing the turnout in texas can only help democrats, even if obama won't win in texas.

btw, i'd argue the same in florida.  democrats won't take either state, but i'd love to see republicans spend their (publicly-financed) money in states they should win easily.  hillary can't do that.  obama can...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't this more Obama swiftboating (2.00 / 1)

Hillary wrote off a number of states including FL and MI until she needed the votes

Hillary says only big states matter
Hillary says caucus states don't matter

C'mon show us why Hillary is better. Show me a viable path to a Hillary nomination instead of trying to manufacture Obama negatives.

Lately this site has been swift boat central


by KosTexasliberal on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:20:46 PM EST

Re: Isn't this more Obama swiftboating (none / 0)

In spite of the outpouring of love and support for Obama in Idaho, Hell will freeze over before the Democrats win Idaho.  It would take a boatload of Idahos and Alaskas to equal one Ohio.


by Montague on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't this more Obama swiftboating (none / 0)

Colorado + Nevada + Iowa > Ohio...


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Boy, the spin is incredible (none / 0)

When I first heard about FL and MI I was horrified.

And for all of those writing post after post about how 2000 was stolen or the 2004 was also stolen...

well, know, out of convenience, magically FL and MI shouldn't count.

FL should count, as is, both were on the ballot, end of story.  

MI is certainly more nasty situation but as I recall there were campaigns telling people to vote "other" and I see no reason why just simply giving all of the "other" to Obama.  

I do know that ignoring FL or playing some game would guarantee a McCain win out of resentment, or at least a strong possibility.

Is the campaign for change, whose supporters are so resistant to counting the votes, really think that's going to fly?

The super delegates are bad enough!


NoSlaves.com | The Economic Populist
by Robert Oak on Thu May 01, 2008 at 04:59:59 PM EST

Re: Obama Campaign: Ohio and Florida Don't Matter (none / 0)

Taking a chance on North Dakota, Texas and Montana because you know better than to think Ohio and Florida will vote for you since you insist on counting them out of the primary????  Madness.


by Montague on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:14:34 PM EST

instead of stretching the map you'd rather... (none / 0)

make it easier for republicans???

it's not just about one person, it's about the whole party...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:18:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: instead of stretching the map you'd rather... (none / 0)

Oy vey.  NO.  I am saying why not go the easier route?  Ohio and Florida are well within our grasp.  Let's get them!  How the hell does that make it "easier for republicans"?  Ans.: It doesn't.


by Montague on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

because florida isn't in our grasp... (none / 0)

and gov. strickland has already guaranteed the democratic nominee will win, regardless.  given those two conditions, obama stretches the electoral map while hillary relies on wishful thinking (that she can win florida based on her popularity in four counties that produce less than 34% of florida's votes...  


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 05:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: because florida isn't in our grasp... (none / 0)

No governor can guarantee any such thing.  Voters of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, plus plenty in Florida like her very well.


by Montague on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i'm sure the perspective from far away... (none / 0)

looks a lot better.  but i want to win.  i don't bet and i certainly don't base my races on long-shots.

btw, hillary's positives in florida (and elsewhere) are in the tank.  but you probably meant that you liked her, and extrapolated from there...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:21:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i'm sure the perspective from far away... (none / 0)

Positives... negatives... all a load of baloney when people get into the ballot area.  Chimpy had high negatives when he beat Kerry.  Chimpy lost to Gore even though Chimpy had higher positive ratings at the time.

Obama, in essence, has pretty much killed off the Democrats' chances of taking the White House this time around.  He's stirred up a lot of racial animus.  If you're shilling for Obama, might as well prep yourself for losing to McCain.

Here's some news for you: I'm not Hillary's biggest fan.  She's pretty decent but has done some things that I don't like.  Yet in comparison to Obama, she is so much better that there's no contest.  


by Montague on Fri May 02, 2008 at 11:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

bullshit... (none / 0)

i understand you're not interested in facts, but you are (predictably) wrong.  bush didn't have high negatives when he won in 2004, at least not the high ones he's had before and since:

Date    |    Appro    Disap    unsure    n=
10/29-31/2004    47    47    4    2013

barack has nowhere near the same problem that bush or clinton have:

USA Today/Gallup Poll. March 14-16, 2008. N=1,025 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.          

"Next, I'd like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news. As I read each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of these people -- or if you have never heard of them. How about Barack Obama?" 12/06: ". . . Illinois Senator Barack Obama"

Date    |    Fav    Unfav    NHdof    Unsure
3/14-16/08    62     33     1     5

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. April 28-30, 2008. N=1,008 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"We'd like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news. As I read each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of these people -- or if you have never heard of them. Illinois Senator Barack Obama."

Date    |    Fav    Unfav    NHdof    Unsure
4/28-30/08    56     38     -     5

your illogical conclusion, that barack has "killed off" dem's chances to win in 2008, is not supported by the facts.  barack, during his worst period, basically does as well as hillary during her best.

which is the best you can do.  barack campaigned better, won more votes, states, etc, than hillary.  sure, she's used to having things handed to her, and i'm sure that's your preference now.

but this isn't england and we elect people here.  that's another fact you seem to ignore...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Fri May 02, 2008 at 12:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit... (none / 0)

Since Obama is the anointed one, I'm surprised you don't make the analogy of him going for the kingship.  Someone on this site actually wrote "Show him some respect; he's going to be your president" a couple of days ago.  Yoicks.  Monarchy, anyone?

Newsflash, 47% disapproval is a high negative for Chimpy in 2004.

Newsflash, Obama's negatives are going higher as time goes on.  No surprise there.  That happens to everyone as they get better known.  Hillary's have been constant since forever because she is so well known.

Obama has nowhere to go but down and he's going to take our chances with him.

And I understand that you and other Obama fans want desperately to twist the facts to say what you want them to say.  He was riding high when the MSM gave him a total pass, and that was fun for awhile, wasn't it?  Now that he has shown himself to be a craven politician like anyone else, it's less fun.  And the desperation shows.


by Montague on