THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update]

[UPDATE: A link to Rev. Wright's sermon, The Audacity to Hope, here (and also embedded in the text below). Many thanks to recusancy for providing it. I strongly encourage everyone to listen to it. If nothing else, it might give you an idea of why Obama found Wright to be inspiring and why he refused to fully "reject and denounce" him.]

Really, thank you so much. Your extremism has helped me move beyond my hate and back into the realm of rationality. Finally. The hateful words I see thrown around by some of the Hillary supporters on this site are appalling. (By the way, if you're not one of the crazies, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a small handful of people, and I don't think any of the regular diarists around here fit the bill. So try not to be offended.) Some of the Obama supporters are equally offensive, but there are quite a few reasonable, decent Obama backers around here, several of whom have treated me very respectfully, despite our differences in opinion. In fact, it sometimes feels as if Obama supporters (on MyDD, at least) are more open to respectful disagreements than Clinton supporters.

As a passionate Hillary supporter myself, I've experienced a great deal of anger and frustration since the primaries began. I'm one of the ones who firmly believes that the media bias this cycle has been uniquely disgraceful. I don't believe Hillary has engaged in race-baiting. Some of Obama's supporters have been vicious beyond belief, and in my fury, I allowed some of the distaste I felt for them to seep over onto the candidate himself (though that certainly wasn't the only reason I disliked him). In fact, I have been so angry, on occasion, that I've vowed never to vote for Barack Obama.

But some of the Clinton supporters on MyDD have cured me of my stubbornness. DKos became an unpleasant environment awhile back, so I left to escape the hate and vitriol aimed at Hillary; I came here, only to discover... a whole lot of hate and vitriol. It was just pointed in the other direction. When I first showed up, there was a good bit of "Obama is a secret Muslim" going around. I saw people referring to him as "the affirmative action candidate". I saw people making comments like, "Oh, boo-hoo, the poor downtrodden blacks, what will they do if Obama isn't president?" The people making those sorts of remarks were banned quickly, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were GOP trolls; nevertheless, I was taken aback (so much so that I wrote a diary pleading with people to knock it off). Still, I thought a lot of the anti-Obama rhetoric was amusing and well deserved.

My attitude began to shift when the Wright controversy began. Please note that I have nothing against the people who were offended by Wright or by Obama's association with him. I completely understand that. Wright's language was definitely inflammatory. However, my views on the issue are more in line with those of Obama's supporters, so I found myself in agreement with them more often than not. I soon realized that defending Wright and Obama was a lonely and fruitless activity for a Clinton supporter, so I stopped reading Wright diaries and refrained from getting into arguments about it in other threads. As I said, I understand people's disgust over the Wright thing, but some people were so vehement and so cruel. Some of it was clearly (dare I say) racist. So while people were furiously arguing with one another, I took a big step back, and that's what ultimately made the difference.

I started feeling sorry for Obama because of the way people were exploiting his relationship with a man he cared about. I started feeling sorry for TUCC. I listened to the sermon, The Audacity to Hope, and found it to be insightful and immensely enjoyable (and I'm a deist, not a religious type). Thereafter, I even started feeling sorry for Reverend Wright. Ultimately, the MSM and many of the Clinton supporters in the blogosphere did what Barack Obama and his legions of supporters couldn't do - they (unintentionally) made me feel rather sympathetic towards him. Sympathy eventually evolved into empathy, and it's very difficult to hate someone when you believe you can empathize with him. For months, I'd dehumanized Obama and his supporters, simply because I was angry. I didn't know him, nor did I care to get to know him. I was quite happy with my Obama hatred, as "untrendy" as it was for someone my age. But it was an angry, sneering, spiteful sort of happiness - it wasn't a peaceful feeling. It wasn't until I finally felt so disgusted by the way the MSM (Fox, especially) was giddily replaying the Wright footage that I bothered to remember Obama's humanity. Yes. Because that's what Barack Obama is - a human. A person. A relatively normal person who seems to be raising a couple of pretty nice little kids, despite what people may want to say about the damage which is surely (*insert eye roll here*) being done by Wright's "hateful" influence. He's just a person who makes mistakes and sometimes engages in behavior I consider unpleasant. Then again, I often engage in behavior I consider unpleasant.

At this point, I'm less than enthusiastic about anti-Obama diaries. My thoughts in recent days have frequently turned to the general election. Gleeful fantasies about the clever ways the Clintons could attack and overcome the GOP machine (again). Similarly delightful fantasies about Republicans gawking as they struggle to smear the Teflon candidate. Yes, I know, their attacks are often devastating, and even Obama won't come out unscathed. But I'll enjoy watching the Republicans walk on eggshells. A conservative talk show host who was introducing McCain recently referred to Obama as "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" several times at a rally, and McCain later apologized for it. As a result, the talk show host became furious and renounced McCain's candidacy. Hopefully, that guy's idiotic, ditto-head listeners will do the same. Granted, it's the 527's which'll do most of the damage, but I'm thinking - no, I'm hoping - that our nominee, whomever s/he may be, will be able to overcome it. I think s/he will. Not because of the war, but because of the economy. As I stood at the pump today and emptied my wallet into my gas tank, I realized how crazy people would have to be to elect a Republican this year. If gas goes over $4 by summer - which they've projected it will - people will be running (especially if they can't afford to drive) to the polls to vote for the Democrat in November.

But back to the point. I may get mad - furious even - but after seeing so much anger and bitterness around here, I've decided I'm going to refuse to hate anyone. I refuse to despise, detest, or loathe Barack Obama. If I have to cast my vote for him in November, I refuse to hold a grudge, and I refuse to feel disgusted. Because he is a Democrat. And although I may have some big problems with him and with his campaign, I believe he will attempt to protect many of the things I want protected - things like the environment, the Supreme Court, the troops, and the Constitution. I'm not going to penalize myself, this nation, or the world by refusing to vote for Obama, simply because he pissed me the hell off sometimes. And I figure, since I'm refusing to hold a grudge (I was never good at it, anyway), I might as well go ahead and work my ass off for the Democratic nominee, regardless of who it might be. Just like I did for Kerry after my boy Dean went down. Hillary will always be my preferred candidate, but now that I've cleared my head, I know she's not the only person I'm willing to work for.

I wish we could all take a step back. I wish we could all remember that the "other candidate" and his/her supporters are human. Some of them deserve a good punch in the face, but they're still people. We should all be making more of an effort to get along. We have a common enemy, you know. By the way, one good way to start getting along better would be to cut down on the rampant ratings abuse. Sometimes I go digging through the hidden comments and feel obligated to uprate Obama supporters because they've been unfairly HR'd. Come on, guys. Let's not aggravate each other unnecessarily. Soon we'll have to find a way to work together for a common purpose. Wouldn't it be better if we could start being more cordial toward one another now? At least it would save us time later on.

And for the Hillary supporters who can still afford it, please don't forget to donate!


Display:


Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 62)

I've become well accustomed to all of the above.
by sricki on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:28:13 PM EST

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 8)

Congrats on rec list!

One more and positive diaries will own the list!


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 6)

Just saw that myself....

Stunning...  and good to see...!

Either we are evolving as a site or it's been a slow news week...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, the people here are all Tanya Hardings (1.00 / 6)

kneecapping Obama over and over.

Does anybody understand what is taking place on the web?  That the right wing has infiltrated and is gradually snuffing out democratic blogs including this one?

Have you noticed how people are disappearing?  Linfar is a prominent example, and was saved by being part of a strong group.

Do you think for one second, that the extreme diaries here are not the product of Obama or Republican Trolls?

More independent minded Hillary Clinton supporters have vanished into thin air.

This diary is offensive, and it is mistruth.

Do you know that News Corp is joining forces with Microsoft to take over Yahoo?

Do you know what that is going to do to the internet when this becomes a Microsoft/Rupert Murdoch world?


by internetstar on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:58:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, the people here are all Tanya Hardings (none / 0)

how is this diary offensive or untrue..?

The diarist went out of the way to be conciliatory, something this site needs more of... differing opinions are  good thing not a bad thing.  It helps us all think about our stances on issues.  But it helps if the argument is substantive rather than merely argumentative.

Also, the diary is the diarist's opinion, which by their nature can not truly be judged as true or untrue as they are opinions rather than facts.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:05:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 9)

You know, I don't agree with certain points in your diary.  I don't think the bitterness and the language of the Reverend helps him or his congregation, although I somewhat understand the root of that anger.  

I think Obama should have denounced the language, and confronted his friend sooner.

BUT I recommended your diary.  Because, you argue your points well. You have a different view than me.  That's fine, and this is the best of blogging.  To be able to have a civil discourse.

So, thank you for this diary, and the mature language in which you wrote it.  


I have yet to see what [Obama] has done to take the highest office in the land. He is no Martin Luther King. --Helen Thomas
by ghost 2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 1)

Thank you. Wright is a controversial issue, and I have no difficulty understanding why his behavior disturbs people. It disturbed me, to a certain extent -- especially the fact that children are being taught those things as they sit in the pews.

I prefer civil discourse (I'm sure we all do), though I can get pretty rude when I'm angry. It's important for people to realize that you can defend Wright without being a "sniveling liberal overcome with white guilt" (as my father semi-jokingly calls me), just as you can criticize him without being a racist. Some people always want to take things to such extremes -- there's no middle ground with those folks.

You are clearly not one of the Hillary supporters who've been freaking me out. ;)

by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, sricki! (2.00 / 2)

Great diary. Thanks for taking the time to write in such detail about your feelings and for being so honest. I hope everyone here checks out the links you provided.

I would recommend this diary, but I have been "grounded" and cannot rec diaries or rate comments. How much longer must I stay in the penalty box?

by power of truth on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 4)

Heh.  I didn't expect to agree with this diary when I clicked on it.  But I am a 100% Hillary supporter who totally agrees with you.  Some of the crazies are truly scary and hard to recognize as fellow Democrats.

To me Wright is an issue about electability and nothing more.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And I adore you for that, Steve. (2.00 / 1)

I know you're passionate about Hillary. I'm sure I've made a lot of Clinton supporters angry. The way some people see it, this diary is tantamount to a betrayal. But my support for Hillary hasn't lessened. It's just that my tolerance for Obama has increased.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 1)

To me Wright is an issue about electability and nothing more.

And THAT is a very, very big deal.

This can't be about getting the nomination. It HAS to be about beating McCain. The Republicans are not going to tip-toe around the Wright issue - they are not going to be afraid of being called racists.

The campaign for the general election is going to be an ugly one.


No way. No how. No McCain. . . . . . If you can ship a job to Bangalore India, you can ship a job to Flint Michigan.
by NJ Liberal on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 1)

Thanks sricki, I have always found you to be reasonable and fair.


Oregon Hussein KCG - Hussein means: "good; small handsome one" in Arabic.
by oregonkcg on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips/Flames/TR's/HR's/Recs? (2.00 / 3)

Excellent diary, sricki.

Thanks.

Hate of either candidate is wrong.

Both are good and decent people.


by TomP on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 10)

I would say the thanks, like most everything else on this site goes both ways...  as the overzealous Obama fans can be a bit hard to take as well...

But, good diary and I both recommended and mojo'd you for it.

The above aforementioned overzealous supporters might give you heck for it, but they do tend to give heck for the wind blowing, so I wouldn't take it too personally.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:33:00 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (1.25 / 8)


   If you vote for Obama, you're either a sexist, or an elitist or you're black and therefore can't make up your own mind.

  That's basically what the Hillary folks here are saying. it's ridiculous, it's pure garbage, but it's what they've resorted themselves to.


by southernman on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:33:53 PM EST

Chill out. (2.00 / 5)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Naive... (1.60 / 5)

I think many Obama supporters are very naive.

I don't think they know what the stakes are or what we are dealing with. And I am not simply talking about McCain, I think its much more complicated than that.

I don't think they understand that the issues that are important in this election are going to effect all of us profoundly.

Read my diaries on health care, thats the reason I'm voting for Hillary.

Obama's health care plan won't save sick people much money at all, relative to what they wil have to spend, and isn't that what health care plans are supposed to do? Give us peace of mind?

For people who get ill, the difference is huge. Thats the issue that makes me wonder about Obama. Why is he doing this? He's too slick, and I don't think his campaign has been conducted honestly.


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:45:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Naive... (2.00 / 5)

Personally I think that it is a bit naive to think that the person you vote for in the primary is the person you get as President...  meaning, if you expect every promise as stated to be carried out once elected, you might be in for disappointment.  Even on something as important as health care.

Proposing something is easy, getting it signed into law takes compromise and tough decisions.  And don't fall into the line about will Clinton is a fighter so she can do it... compromise takes more than fighting...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is funny. (2.00 / 12)

Talk about stereotyping. Like many Obama backers, I suffer under no delusions that he is the perfect candidate. I just think he's a better candidate than Clinton for a whole host of reason.

I am a Democratic Party member and activist. I have been involved, actively, in Dem politics for nearly 40 years, beginning by walking precincts with my precinct captain father when I was a kid. I have worked on campaigns at every level, from school board, to local city council to statewide races to presidential races dating back to 1976.

I;'m not starry-eyed kid. And neither are many of the other Obama backers I know. My father is an 80-year-old union Democrat. He has an Obama sign in his front yard. In a neighborhood with a a lot of Republicans who engage him on a daily basis. And my dad knows his politics.

Your "naive" line smacks of the paternalism that has been rampant from the Clinton campaign.

It's ignorant, condescending and arrogant. And I believe it has hurt her campaign. It is of a piece with the "inevitable" theme, the flip-side of which is "I deserve this."

There's something uniquely un-American about that attitude.

Your comments here are ignorant.


by Bob Johnson on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Naive... (2.00 / 2)

If you care singularly about universal healthcare, I presume that you were a Kucinich supporter, right?


by zadura on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:58:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I Call Ratings Abuse (none / 0)

on Shem, Sean Robertson and hootie4170.

There is nothing even remotely trollish about this post.

Admins, please take note.


by creeper1014 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:06:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neither plan is acceptable (none / 0)

...and both leave people out in the cold.

The only candidate's health plan that was acceptable was Kucinich's.


by rhetoricus on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:51:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Some fanatics may say that, yes. But in fairness, I've also read pro-Obama/anti-Hillary diaries in which the author asserted that anyone who continued to support Hillary and her "racist" campaign was "unforgivable". Supporters of both candidates get carried away.
by sricki on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)


   Very true...but at this site, it's the Hillary extremists who carry the day for lunacy.
by southernman on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 6)

I don't know... in fairness to Hillary fans, I have seen some way out-there comments by Obama supporters as well....

This place is still nothing compared to some lunatic fringe places I have visited....  oddly enough, they have the gall to call themselves "progressive".


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like this ridiculous echo chamber thing... (1.50 / 2)

you have going right now...

....

I wish that I could laugh..


public option=not affordable for middle. It cant cover all affordably, google adverse selection for why
by architek on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Like this ridiculous echo chamber thing... (2.00 / 2)

and you can't laugh because....?

Personally I don't care if you laugh at me or not... Certainly the least of my worries on this site sometimes....

But this place is hardly an echo-chamber... there is a lot of disagreement.  Some of it constructive, some of it destructive...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is a Daily Kos Troll Nest (none / 0)

and a reason we have so much respect for Obama.


by internetstar on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 9)

The quality of dialogue at this site has been improving in no small measure due to people like, sricki. I think the key is to realize the inflammatory stuff is coming from a very small, very vocal minority. The vast majority of a site's population tend to lurk rather than post, and that, to me at least, implies a more laid-back, thoughtful mode.

Or maybe they are just lazy :P


by tessellated on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 5)

I agree about sricki.

Last week, an erstwhile Clinton supporter who had "come to" Obama posted a diary here in a spirit pretty similar to this one - not saying that Obama was better than Clinton, but that they intended to support the nominee, and that it shouldn't be so damn hard.

As an Obama supporter, I told her she was better off posting it in a place like Kos for Obama supporters to read, because I had an empathetic reaction to it, whereas I could see a Clinton supporter resenting it.  So here we are.

Yes, this.  We need more of this.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Thank for stating the mere fact of the matter. I do think it goes further. It is a fascism actually in which people believe that they can humiliate others by calling them "crazies". Witch Hunts became illegal in 1949 when the Witches Act was repealed. The term "crazy" really is meaningless these days. Who cares? I do not! I am voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton because if she were a man, she would still be the best candidate.


by Vote4Hillary on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 6)

Very nice to hear this. I've often thought of you as one of Hillary's most civil and reasonable supporters, but it was always difficult for me to reconcile that pattern with your diary refusing to vote for Obama in the general election. Since that diary, you've consistently been fair-minded and even defended Obama from time to time. So, I'm glad to read that the sentiments expressed in that diary have been abandoned after some reflection.

Hopefully, you good sense is contagious.


by DPW on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:35:56 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 7)

WOW . . . one of the best diaries I have read on MyDD!

Highly Rec'd.

MyDD's tone seems to be nearing KUMBAYA. Not there yet, but the fact that Pro=Obama diaries are even making the rec list this week gives hope to a two-way discussion that will turn to teamwork against McCain in the GE.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:37:59 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 6)

I have seen the same thing, it's one of the reasons I moved here from DKos and decided to finally post here instead of there.  There it's kind of an Obama echo chamber at the moment and too much BS Clinton bashing, though some of it richly deserved. But, it's a little too personal there.

Here, it's either SO over the top that it's almost comical (that deleted diary from Texas Darlin was just a riot..it was like visting the Freepers claiming to be Democrats...)

Or fairly reasonable like this.

There are the dive-bombers on both sides, but I think there is a migration to more and more frenzied sites like Taylor Marsh for the truely desperate folk.

True democrats will come home. I am supporting Obama, but I would certainly vote for Senator Clinton in the fall, though I am pretty sure she will lose to McCain (funny, how Clinton supporters see it 180 degrees out..)

Anyone that would vote for McCain over Senator Clinton or Senator Obama is NOT a democrat to me.

He is going to serve ONE term, maybe not even that?

Whomever is his running mate is whom you will be putting in office for 8 years, it's that probably very conservative running mate that will replace Ruth Ginsburg and John Stevens on the USSC.

If your anger that your candidate lost lets you do that, again, you're not a democrat in my book.

And anyone that tells you that McCain will not appoint different judges then Clinton or Obama, I got one name for you.

Associate Justic Orrin Hatch of Utah! YIKES!


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

That poor, poor Justice Stephens.  He's going to be 89 when the new President is sworn in.  

Bush's "victory" in 2000 must have been devastating to him; the man's been a great justice and deserves to retire before he's 93.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ginsberg's no spring chicken herself. (2.00 / 1)

Both have been great justices and served their country wisely and well.  They deserve a restful retirement, free from any guilt or worry over the suitability of their successors.  We owe them that.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 7)

Really because for me all i have ever heard from BO supporters is HRC is a racist (at least until the Wright flab and then attacking the clintons a race just disappeared), then a lair, then someone who will do anything to win.  I am still waiting for a reason they support BO but all i ever see is thread after thread smearing her with the same stuff the right used to smear Gore.

Just saying.  david


by giusd on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:38:06 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

Weird... but I cannot recall seeing either of the Clintons called a racist on this site...  I have heard about it often though...  but you seem to imply it happens every day...

I do see reasons to support BO listed... maybe you and I are reading different diaries...

David, I am still curious...  you are still spelling it lair... is this intentional?


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Well i still dont feel the need to address this but if i decide to take you college english course i will address it then.  Will i be getting a grade.  

daivd


by giusd on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Really, I meant no offense... both lair and liar are actual words but mean vastly different things.  In context I understood what you meant, but sometimes people misspell thing intentionally, so I wasn't sure if that was the case here...  

I have never understood spelling it "teh" for example, if someone would like to enlighten me...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

teh stupid it burns !!!!1 (2.00 / 2)

"I  have never understood spelling it "teh" for example, if someone would like to enlighten me..."

teh stupid it burns !!!!1

Is an example of making fun of people on the "interwebs / tubes."

In many forums on the net, people who are not the sharpest knives misspell words as they type fast with two fingers
whilst frothing at the mouth.

They also use extra exclamation points as to point out how important what they are saying is!!!!!1!!
The number one is an obvious slip of the finger from hold the shift key for so long... "It's hard work" (h/t GWB)

ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS PEOPLE WHO TYPE IN ALL CAPS !!!!!!!1!1


by bvljac on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:16:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: teh stupid it burns !!!!1 (none / 0)

Thanks...!  I figured it was mockery but wanted to know the backstory.


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 11)

I don't judge Hillary by her associates, supporters, or campaign staff. I judge her on, if I believe she can represent the Democratic Party well in the GE. I think her and Obama have proven they can, and will beat McCain!


by FOB92 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not really. (2.00 / 5)

I can't obviously speak for anyone buy myself, but I moved to Obama from Edwards (after he dropped out) for several reasons. One was the way he was running his campaign, which I find empowering, something that is deeply needed by our party and, I think, our country; I vastly prefer his approach to net neutrality and internet infrastructure to hers; and his foreign policy proposals envision an entirely new and attractive model for America's interactions with the world. His healthcare plan is, I think, more attractive politically than hers even as it's deficient in policy terms. I also like that he wants to overturn DOMA.

Whether those are good reasons or not is in the eye of the beholder. But these are substantially different from what you may have heard, I think.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 1)

Could someone please explain how Obama's campaign organizing skills transfer to the skills he's going to need to lead the United States. Does he plan to pass legislation using these techniques on the Congress?


by pan230oh on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 5)

I think he does. He's certainly hinted at it enough times in his stump speeches.

I think he plans on continuing his vast network of grassroots right on into his presidency. Can you imagine the sort of influence he could bring to bear on members of Congress who were on the receiving end of calling or letter writing campaigns? What about his massive donor list for midterm elections? Imagine the seeds he is going to plant this summer with his fellowship training. These people aren't going to go away. They are going to remain energized and active and empowered right on through his first term.


by tessellated on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 1)

While I admire the fact that he has spawned a grassroots movement, I fear what will happen to many of his younger and less experienced supporters when he runs into the wall of Republican opposition and hate similar to what the Clintons had to deal with in the 1990s.
The one thing going for him is that he will have a majority Democratic congress behind him that won't be tarnished with previous scandals like the Dem majority that was thrown out in 1994.
I think the downticket races are as important as the presidency this election.
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:30:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (none / 0)

Some younger folks will drop out at the first sign of trouble.  Others will power through.

The importance is keeping the enthusiasm up.  Obama is looking to become the biggest community organizer on the planet.


You can't stop the signal.

President "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 5)

Well first of all managerially clearly he has the ability to chart a course and bring together the talent necessary to accomplish it.

Secondly his goal isn't just to win an election but to build a new governing majority. A majority he expects to stay engaged. When asked how he intended to pull off the kinds of legislation he wanted to enact he said he would use shame. He will use the bully pulpit of the Presidency to take his case to the people when the legislature drags its feet on his agenda and he expects people to contact their representatives to ensure that their senators and congresspeople are following their wishes.

To facilitate that he intends massive changes in government transparency. He expects major cabinet and policy meetings to be televised on Cspan and streamed online so that if a representative is trying to serve the interests of the oil companies over the people we will know. He wants to post legislation online for a week before he signs it so people can review it.

In short he wants to give government back to the people. But that comes at a cost. It means that people will need to educate themselves, to watch, to get involved when their interests are not met.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:45:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 2)

When asked how he intended to pull off the kinds of legislation he wanted to enact he said he would use shame.

This is an interesting tactic that, on its surface, might seem a bit manipulative and distant from Obama's 'new' brand of politics. But when one considers that many of the legislators who impede the kind of change this country needs should feel shame, then it becomes clear how appropriate it is.

And it works. A good example is all those stories about Bono breaking out the Bible with people like Jesse Helms and Orrin Hatch, reducing them to tears, then getting them to agree to vote to fund programs on hunger and AIDS in Africa.


by vadasz on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 2)

Can you answer the reverse question?

Does the fact that all the reports from inside the Clinton camp shows disruption, in-fighting, large wastes of money, a constanly shifting message, and simply rookie mistakes like not vetting stories about Bosnia Landings and the expecting mother story?

They look like Amatuers, but they are LOADED with big names like Wolfson, Penn, Ickes...

They had NO back-up plan after Hillary didn't close it out on Super Tuesday, and, it took them about 11 primaries to realize they needed a ground game....

Slow, pondering, stuck in the old Paridigms, fighting the battles of the 90s?

How does THAT give you confidence in a Hillary Clinton WhiteHouse?


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Organizing (2.00 / 2)

He organizes to give the people (us) more power and a louder voice.  Therefore he will have the wind at his back and if congress doesn't give us what we want (which is what Obama wants) then they will have a louder and stronger public to deal with then they otherwise would have.

A congress person's biggest fear is losing their seat.  Go against the will of the people and that's what will happen.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:25:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I've never heard Hillary called a lair on this blog.  A cave or perhaps a citadel, but never a lair.

(just trying to keep it light)


by the mollusk on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:36:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

I've heard the same, and heard that Obama supporters are just sexist. Being an Edwards guy, I guess I'm both.

Stick to the agreed upon rules at the beginning of this contest, let the winner win by those, and no-one can truly cry foul.


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Black man here. Running a racist campaign is the same as being racist to me and many of my people. Not that anyone asked us what we thought about it even though it was directed at us.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 7)

Thank YOU.  I always look forward to your comments.  As this campaign has gone on, as an Obama supporter I have found myself thinking along the same lines as your diary expresses, about reconnecting with Hillary Clinton.


by mady on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:38:23 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Me too.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (2.00 / 8)

This is the diary I wanted to write occasionally back when Edwards was still running, and some of my fellow Edwards supporters were pissing me off. Now, it's the diary I want to write when some of my fellow Obama supporters - no need to name names - piss me off as well.

Enthusiastically recommended.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:44:42 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

Very well put.  Things seem to be settling down a little now that several of the loonier people have been removed from the site.


by rfahey22 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:51:38 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 5)

I'm noticing it, too...I think every time another firebreathing candidate supporter gets booted, things take a gradual shift back toward reasonable discourse.

Sricki, thank you for the thoughtful diary. The sentiment is appreciated.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank You For The Diary (2.00 / 3)

Respectful debate and disagreement is the hallmark of democracy. When the debates are over we come together and chart a way forward.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:59:36 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 7)

Here's hoping that the cooler heads will prevail amongst the supporters of both candidates.  Luckily there are rational Clinton supporters such as yourself here, because it's easy to assume everyone is crazy when you see some of the diaries that were making the recommended list.  It definitely cuts both ways though, as there are a few Obama supporters that always seem to take it a little too far.  Anyway, thanks for the diary, and if Clinton wins this thing you can expect me to be right behind her.

Oh yeah, and for my sanity can I please refer to this diary as srickigate?


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:00:20 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 11)

Overzealous HRC supporters shocked me out of my anti-Hillary anger.  I was ready to not vote for her until I came here and saw people screaming about how they would never vote for Obama.  It put my anger in check and made me realize that we ALL lose when we insult the other candidate.  Our common enemy is just too big to resort to this kind of behavior.


by Renie on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:00:53 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Don't encourage them.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To the troll-rater, deleter guy (none / 0)


Since my posts are SOO offensive that they can's survive more than 5min on the comment list, maibe you could use those deletion skills on this line of comments:

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/4/8/84 918/87578/220#220

To the next guy who tells me that this site is pro-Hillary... don't even start.


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:01:23 PM EST

Re: To the troll-rater, deleter guy (2.00 / 1)

so wait 1 person insults you so you blame the rest of us and the entire site?

really?

guilt by association much?


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To the troll-rater, deleter guy (none / 0)

Did I say blame?

I just made the observation that some "offensive " comments get caught faster than other.


by TaiChiMaster on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To the troll-rater, deleter guy (2.00 / 1)

Lars shouldn't have used that language, but why don't you stop baiting people? If you've got nothing  productive to say, or are unable to say it without coming off like a jackhole, perhaps you should stop commenting altogether.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:07:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To the troll-rater, deleter guy (2.00 / 1)


Please, by that definition, all we do is baiting each other.
by TaiChiMaster on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Time for a nice long session (2.00 / 0)

of tai chi.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

By that definition (none / 0)

What exactly is a jackhole?

I'll try not to sound like one from here on out.  I do think it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, and I think a great deal of my experience here and at DKos have been disagreements without "baiting".  It does go in the other direction sometimes, but hey, what's a bit on conflict now and then.  Let's just not be jackholes (what a word).


by nwgates on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 5)

I think you brought up some issues that both sides should consider. We have to get behind the winner and go after McCain I love your passion  I look forward to more of your posts.


by Politicalslave on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:04:38 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

" I soon realized that defending Wright and Obama was a lonely and fruitless activity for a Clinton supporter "

- I stopped reading your diary at that point.

You can defend Obama which is perfectly reasonable , however defending or justifying what he said is unacceptable to me.

Thats just my opinion


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:06:23 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

What Wright said , that is


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 9)

Too bad...in the next paragraph, he gave out his ATM pin number. Score!


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 5)

I'm sorry, I just see it differently. As I've said before, I respect the opinions of people who were (and still are) horrified and offended, and it pissed me off that some Obama supporters tried to turn people's negative reactions into some sort of latent racism. I was shocked by the Wright tapes at first, but more saddened than angry. I don't think what he said was right, but I do think it was understandable. The bit about the U.S. government inventing AIDS and giving it to AAs, for example -- that's incorrect, but after the Tuskegee Experiment, I'm not surprised some African Americans think that way.
by sricki on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

there are actually a number of conspiracy theories that got started that way... flooding N.O. intentionally for example...

I spoke to my parents who are very active in their church...  They were actually more upset that a pastor's 30 year career was being judged by 10 second soundbytes than anything he said.  Other members of their congregation felt the same way...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:20:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

Agreed, it's really sad. I firmly believe that anyone who listens to The Audacity to Hope with an open mind will have a very different opinion of Wright by the end -- a grudging respect, if nothing else.
by sricki on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Here's the audio of that sermon if you wanted to update the diary with it (although maybe that would get it off on a bad tangent).

Thanks for the diary btw.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:34:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Thanks! I wanted to link to it, but I'd listened to it in two parts and didn't want to bother with two links. I've added it. The comments on this thread will now probably devolve into a big Wright-bashing fest (just like the last diary I wrote), but I'd already praised the sermon -- people were going to gripe, anyway.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:58:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

Jen -- interesting example. Conspiracy theory or not -- intentional flooding of black homes in NO is a historical fact.

In the 1927 Mississippi flood, the government did, in fact, purposely flood the poorer, rural and mostly african-american parishes to save the rich areas of New Orleans.

The story is bleak -- and one most African Americans of a certain generation know well. The decision to blow up levees protecting the poorer parishes was clearly a racist and classist one -- 1,000 people died, and it took something like 4 mos for the waters to recede. Few survivors saw any of the promised support, let alone promised compensation, and once the depression came, they were forgotten.

From US News and World Reports:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articl es/050912/12leadall.b.htm

The 1927 flood spared New Orleans, yet parallels to the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina are hard to miss. Authorities were ill-prepared to deal with refugees, and the brunt of the damage was borne by poor blacks unable to get to high ground.

Despite this horrific real-life conspiracy theory, and the disaster of government relief that followed, the fact that it was poor blacks suffering wasn't lost on America. In fact -- Herbert Hoover, then Sec'y of Commerce and in charge of flood relief, was so louded for saving the city -- heckuva job, Hoovie! -- that it was responsible for his becoming President in 1928.

Think of him as the Guiliani of his time. And we all know how well he turned out as a president.

Anyway, how does this tie back to Obama and Wright?

As US News futher explains:


Most significant for the course of America, however, the tragedy hastened the mass migration of African-Americans to northern cities and marked the beginning of the end of southern sharecropping.

And where did they end up? Sundown laws in most US cities left Blacks with little options outside of the major cities. Chicago saw a large share of these people, and don't think for a second it was forgotten. Especially once Katrina hit and, surprise surprise, the poorest and predominantly black where those hardest hit and least helped. And, yet again, the refugee crisis that followed was ignored.

At least Brownie isn't going to be president.

So, to conclude -- we use "conspiracy theory" to mean "loonie coo-coo crazy person ramblings" but that doesn't mean all are. And it might help to explain why African Americans of certain backgrounds and generations might be more likely than majority of the blog-reading public to distrust the 'official' stories.

And it might explain a bit more of the anger.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Interesting point.  I'm sure you know that N.O. was the southernmost stop on the Underground Railroad.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Wow--I had never heard that. But it reminds me of something that comes up when I've discussed Wright with (white) people who seemed offended, incredulous, or just dismissive towards him. Some have mentioned that he stated something to the effect that he thinks HIV was introduced into the black community by the government. They express incredulity at this, and write him off as a nutjob.

Well...I personally don't believe that the US government has been infecting US citizens with HIV. But I remind or inform these people about the Tuskegee experiment, wherein for 40 years between 1932 and 1972 government researchers studied hundreds of poor black men with syphilis...and never told them they had it--allowing them to spread it to their girlfriends (or boyfriends, not much info about that), and wives, and allowing their children to be born with it. In light of history, this belief about the government intentionally infecting black people with HIV may not be correct, but it's not really as implausible as people seem to think.


by kydoc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

There's an oft-repeated poll that 30% of african-americans share Rev. Wright's belief about AIDS.  I don't, but as the above posters are saying, it's not completely unreasonable.  It wouldn't be the first time the US has used germ warfare on "undesirables", or used their own citizens as guinea pigs.

To paraphrase Barack Obama, I can no more condemn Rev. Wright for believing it than I can the 1/3rd of black people who also believe it.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:21:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

What was really kind of difficult for me to watch was, the Clinton's on this.

Anyone who is as familar with the black church culture, as the Clintons are, know that retoric is not uncommon, fiery black preachers are over the top, just like fiery white preachers?

Bill especially has seen plenty of this...

And, we all know Bill and Hillary don't have a racist bone in their body, but, when Mark Penn says "this polls well" the politician in them takes over.

I'd bet my bottom dollar, if Hillary wasn't running, one of the strongest voices calling out the right wing for condemning Wright by a 30 second sound clip.....

Would be none other then Bill Clinton.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:27:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point, and it saddens me (none / 0)

I am an Obama supporter, and I have been since he announced he was running in Springfield.  I have, all along, been FOR him rather than against Hillary, or anyone else in the Dem. race.  But when she used Wright to try to score political points, it made my blood boil.  I understand that things get nasty and dirty in politics, but to me, that really undermined what I consider to be one of the pillars of the Democratic party- social justice.  

I'm not trying to spew any hate here, but that behavior made me angry.


by nwgates on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Do you find the similar things that MLK has said unacceptable?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 6)

Excellent, thoughtful diary - we need more like this from both Hillary and Obama supporters. Speaking only for myself, I certainly don't think Hillary would be a bad President, she just isn't my preference. But I would vote for her in a heartbeat if by some miracle she is the nominee. The only way we are losing to McCain is if we are divided - that's the ONLY path to defeat.


by jwolf on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:13:13 PM EST

I'm skeptical (2.00 / 2)

of your claim to be a 'passionate Hillary supporter', so I'm not buying your thesis.

Just my opinion.


by Coldblue on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:26:54 PM EST

Re: I'm skeptical (2.00 / 1)

Please read my "I hate Obama and am never voting for him because he's trying to turn my candidate into a racist in the eyes of the voters" rant from awhile back. I am an extraordinarily passionate Clinton supporter. I have given hundreds of dollars to her campaign, and I have made hundreds upon hundreds of calls for her.
by sricki on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's funny.... (2.00 / 1)

IMO, you're behavior is hypocritical. Personally, I've never used such strong verbage as you did ---> "I hate Obama" and now you're on a "holier than thou" kick...Perhaps you're feeling guilty.


by soyousay on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (2.00 / 0)

wait a minute...  the over zealous Hillary fans are turning on other Hillary fans now...?

Well, I did say not to take it personally when they gave heck didn't I...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Only the.... (none / 0)

"holier than thou" ones. :D


by soyousay on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only the.... (2.00 / 0)

I don't think pointing out that some people are more prone to attacking others in defense of their candidate makes one "holier than thou", but we can differ on that I guess...


"If you ever post anything on that website again, I will shove a motherboard so far up your a$$...!" C.J Cregg
by JenKinFLA on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:05:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only the.... (2.00 / 1)

Heh.

Buddy, I think you not only missed the point, you aren't even in the same time zone as the point. You're a perfect example of what sricki's talking about. How does your behavior either help your candidate, or convince other people to support your candidate? Really. Because, I'm assuming you're trying to get other people to support your candidate, right?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:58:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

it's "you'e" (none / 0)

not "you"


by soyousay on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:32:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's "you're" (none / 0)


by soyousay on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Only the.... (2.00 / 3)

Somebody's got to step up and be an adult.  Sricki stepped up.

It's like you can't extend an olive branch without getting flamed.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (2.00 / 3)

this always happens when I HRC supporter makes a diary like this

Look up Angry Mouse's diary.the second you don't sign on to Obama being evil, or dare to believe he has a chance to win the GE. you become brain washed kool-aid drinking but who needs to wake up.

shrugs diaries like this always remind me that eventually people come around.  


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (2.00 / 1)

Well, I did say not to take it personally when they gave heck didn't I...

Oh yes, this was most certainly expected.

by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:09:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (2.00 / 5)

So it's hypocritical for someone to have an angry moment, then think it over for about three weeks, then ultimately decide to be rational and do the right thing? Soyousay, no offense, but this is the sort of behavior I'm talking about. I haven't stopped supporting Hillary. I donated to her campaign just this past weekend. But because I didn't stick with the "I hate that sleazy Obama" line from a few weeks ago, you're attacking me? I'm not being holier than thou. I certainly understand if you -- or anyone else -- refuse to vote for Obama. However, we can disagree with him and make snarky comments about him and yes, even say we won't vote for him, without being vicious, can't we? That's what I'm criticizing -- that tendency to smear a candidate rather than question him/her. A lot of us have been unnecessarily vicious. (Not that Obama supporters haven't done the same to Hillary.)
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:07:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (none / 0)

See, this is where I'd normally make some kind of snarky comment about how "thinking better of a bad decision" isn't something that comes up much in the Clinton campaign, making make some parallel to her Iraq vote and the gymnastics required to justify it in the context of opposing the war when John Edwards simply said "my bad" and devoted himself to undoing the mistake.

But instead I'll just imply it.

And add... Hillary could have made an amazing speech a'la Obama's race speech, about what it means to have supported the war and believed the President, only to realize you were sold a bill of goods.

Hundreds of Millions of Americans were. Supporting the war, and sadly learning over time it wasn't worth it is a traumatic experience that the majority of americans are now going through. Obama can't speak to it. Hillary can.

And didn't. I think bold decisions during her front-runner days would have made a big difference for her. I regret this wasn't part of that time.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (none / 0)

I think that it's more difficult to make bold moves when you're the front runner, but I agree that she probably wouldn't be in the situation she is now if she had been able to electrify so many (formerly) less political voters as Obama did.  She certainly has her hardcore support, but I don't know how many people she's been able to convince to support her that didn't already, you know?

I personally think she'd be a great president and that she has a great nose for policy, but she doesn't quite have her husband's charisma and election instincts.  Not to say she still can't win, but...


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (none / 0)

That's why I'm surprised she wants to be President, really. This has nothing to do with my opinion of her policies... I just see her personality (as I observe it) as more in keeping with a Senate Majority Leader or House Speaker. I've always felt Pelosi, who I greatly admire, is a Hillary Lite -- in that she has a lot of what I admire in Hillary as a Senator, but a little less so.

A successful presidency does require as much televangelism as it does policy -- like it or not, you need the people to join you, and the people don't always respond to calls for sacrifice or participation well. That's Bill, certainly. I don't see why she'd want the hassle, when the policy meat tends to seem what she thrives in.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's funny.... (none / 0)

Wow.

Way to prove her thesis.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:41:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

THANK YOU. I didn't connect those postings. (2.00 / 1)

Wow. I liked your post when I read it, but I can't possibly explain how I felt when I clicked that link.

I came to MyDD because I was interested in a place a little less kool-aid-ey than DKos, and one of the first things I remember was reading your entry. And I remember the profound sense of sad, frightened, scared that I felt then - I think those words have been echoing in the back of my head ever since.

I should have, perhaps, recognized the pattern - I'd already been full circle in my I'll-never-vote-for-Hillary cycle. (I got pissed at Bill after South Carolina. Whatever, I'm so over it.) In retrospect I'm glad that it happened - I got angry and got over it before a lot of people even got angry.

If the whatever percent of either side comes around as thoroughly as you have (and I suppose I did) once we've decided on the person that we're gonna decide on (and I seriously have no idea who that's gonna be), we're gonna kick some serious Republican in the fall.


by Exhausted Pennsylvanian on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK YOU. I didn't connect those postings. (2.00 / 1)

I think people will come around. You know, it's funny -- I was so angry for so long, but the anger which was directed at Obama slowly faded away. And then one day I was brooding, and I'd been reading some really virulent Obama hate (I'd taken a glance at Hillaryis44 to see if it was really as bad as people say -- and it is); suddenly, it was almost as if something snapped, and I thought, "...Wait a second... why do I hate this guy?" It was an extraordinary feeling to abruptly realize that not only had I stopped feeling angry, but I could enthusiastically support him in the fall. I can't even describe the relief -- and genuine happiness.

Now I'm so excited about the fall, whereas I'd been dreading it for a long time. I want everyone to pull together, and I want to see a huge victory in November. If we can just all get over our anger, the Republicans are toast.

by sricki on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Problem won't go away with hope (2.00 / 3)

"Granted, it's the 527's which'll do most of the damage, but I'm thinking - no, I'm hoping - that our nominee, whomever s/he may be, will be able to overcome it."

I'm sorry, but the problem will continue to come up on the campaign trail, it's beyond mydd and other blogs to control it.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/04/09 audience-member-quizzes-obama-on-farrak han?mod=WSJBlog

"Audience Member Quizzes Obama on Farrakhan"


by soyousay on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:28:01 PM EST

Re: Problem won't go away with hope (2.00 / 1)

And, Soyousay, isn't it wonderful how well Senator Obama handle that question in your link?

Even the Wall Street Journal was impressed!

I guess all the "he can't handle a punch" questions have been answered.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"morning Joe" and "friends" (2.00 / 1)

On MSNBC this morning didn't seem so impressed. In fact, the show stated that this could effect Florida voters in a negative way toward Obama.


by soyousay on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:37:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Republican Joe (none / 0)

Well, if Republican Joe Scarborough says that it could affect Florida, by all means we must submit to his judgment and wisdom.


by zadura on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 7)

yay...

good diary.

I can relate to your diary. I had been letting Obama supporters turn me off to Obama himself, and have tried to see past it and really look at the issues. I didnt know past the convention. I know I know. I wasn't planning on voting McCain, I just didnt know if I could vote Obama.

I'm over my unknowing phase and even though he isnt my first choice, Ill vote Obama over McCain any day.   But Im still holding out and consistent with my preference to hillary.


--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--
by amde on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:31:44 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 5)

Ill vote Obama over McCain any day. But Im still holding out and consistent with my preference to hillary.

Exactly! I've never believed in a politician more fully than I believe in her, but if she loses the nomination, we need to keep in mind that it's important to oust the GOP from the White House.

by sricki on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

I do not understand this, Obama is a democrat so we must vote for the party, if he should be the nominee.  

I don't find anything appealing as a life long democrat about any of Obama's policies.  Technically all his policy is watered down idea's from everyone else's campaign.  There is no change, no hope, no earth breaking policy anywhere in it.  It is quite bland and in some ways, very conservative.

His funding in certain areas doesn't go far enough, his scope for programs not deep enough, nor his understanding of the idea of actual policy innovation.

He always seems like the last person on the bus.

Democrat or not, he has to earn my vote.

And to this day he has done nothing to win me over.

I don't buy into marketing, or the packaging, or the message without a real descriptive plan on it.

It is tasting food without a list of ingredients, being able to not ascertain the muddled flavors, and leaving from the table empty even though you have put something in your mouth.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:47:07 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I doubt Nader or Barr will come close to 270 electoral votes, so what other options do you have besides staying home or McCain?


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

I never understood why some voters stayed home and didn't vote.  But I do now.  If I am not satisfied with making a vote, I won't just make it because of some nondescript party unity bonding issues.

If anything this election has told me is that the democratic party, all parties, will eat their own at the cost of saving their own privileged hide.

The treatment of President Clinton's record and works, and the smearing of Senator Clinton, by their own party members they helped get elected, fundraised for and coddled during those rough republicans years is very telling.

This is not a party it is an over fed, over heightened monster.  And Obama wont change that because he was created in it's image.

I know Dick Durbin, and he is the root of the Clintonian killing machine he has created.

i am not saying that Obama is a robot.  But whatever he was, with his slime record and non outstanding works, is being led by the party "elite" who will throw anyone under a bus to save themselves.

And you know who they are.  It seems the Clinton's have always been doing to the fighting for both sides since the 90's and one side has always done the pandering.

Look at the House, look at the Senate.  All those "progressively and grass root" movement seats that we helped the dems grab.

And what is happening?  Nothing!

Politics as usual.  And with Obama i dont expect anything more.  All I have to to is listen to his vague plans and look at his surrogates to know they represent nothing other than the status quo.

Do you know the last President that bucked the status quo was?  I do....but as the days wain his legacy is being sheared from the walls of hollowdom.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

I fund-raised my ass off for Bill in the nineties, but it was obvious that he was imperfect. I was pissed off when we lost our majority in Congress after '94. Bill was my man . . . heck I even joined the Army under his watch. I do not have some blind loyalty that I owe him or Hillary. Both candidates will make excellent Presidents, and protect the future of my children better than McCain.

This election isn't about our personal feelings . . . it is about what we leave for our future generations. I sure as hell do not want to leave them a Supreme Court that overturned Roe v. Wade.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:53:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

It is not blind loyalty that I support Hillary.  It is based on facts removed from emotion on her plan and those detailed plans.  I can follow her thought from step A-Z on where she wants to go with this country, how she will pay for it, how she will pass it, why we need it, and what the bigger picture is, removed from overdrawn metaphors and alliteration.  

I was more commenting on how our "party, our family is eating and destroying the legacy of the Clintons so their boy can wrap this up.  To disregard who the party elders are championing around at the cost of someones legacies, is disgusting.

It takes lack of bling loyalty to recognize the dirtiness our party has become.

Look at the Pelosi's, the Reid's, Kennedy's, Kerry's, all fat with power and doing nothing to "change" the world.  They like life the way it is, they like to be in control, and they know who they can control.  


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whoa there! (2.00 / 2)

You claim to be a Democrat yet you say our party is dirty?
You claim to be a Democrat yet you say Pelosi, Reid, Kennedy and Kerry are all fat with power?
You claim to like Hillary yet you can't seem to find anything about her party to like, anything about her colleagues to like.

I have a point to make too, Iamjustmakingapoint.  Sometimes what you say says more about you than you realize.  


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:01:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Thing is, Hillary is not applying for a monarchical position.  She's applying for president.  As such, the well-defined, well-articulated positions are going to come up against the rocky shore of reality. The president is NOT the law-making branch of U.S. government and if she wants influence over the Legislative branch, she will have to engage the opposition and to coalesce her support.  She has a lousy track record on both of these fronts and the strategy that Bill adopted, triangulation, was a net loser for Democrats and progressive politics.


by zadura on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:34:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Agreed . . . you would have to be blind to not recognize this. I saw the Clinton's failings in the nineties, but I looked the other way for the "good of the party."


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:20:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

What are your ideas of Bill Clinton bucking the status quo? I assume this is the president you were hinting at.


by tessellated on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:00:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I don't know if I am good at giving history lessons, I am more an engineer, and my writing is just as terrible.

There are many books, both partisan and independent that could show you that Bill Clinton at points was hated by everyone at some points, yet he fought, won and endured.  

The whole family were true outsiders, called Hillbillies by the political elite and looked down on by their lack of family pedigree.  They were not the primary wants by our beloved party elites.

But they did a lot of good in front of a lot of adversity.

More than can be said for others.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:48:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Oh, I took your statement to mean radical legislative accomplishments.

I agree he faced down some tough elections and a challenging opposition, but the popularity contest is only of interest or value to me insofar as it facilitates changing policy. That's not to suggest he didn't get some things accomplished, I've just never heard anyone describe it as radical. Quite the opposite, in fact.


by tessellated on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

You spout a lot of propaganda, with no supporting evidence, no depth to your arguments (such as why XYZ policy fails in scope compared to opponent's ZYX policy), which presents an unclear reason for why precisely why you support Clinton over Obama, or why other people should support Clinton over Obama- indeed, I think it only serves to cement/drive support towards Obama.

You seem to celebrate the "mediocrity" of Hillary Clinton. Since she doesn't buck the status quo, she's a better candidate, you seem to insinuate. The status quo rocks! Right?

Of course, in the process, you compare Obama to President Bush. Again, I don't see the point of this. The only people who would be swayed by this argument are already so far gone over to Clinton. I'm not going to see it and go "Wow. Obama = George W. Bush? What the hell was I thinking?"

Just FYI.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

My post is not meant to sway anyone.  If anyone is able to be swayed by a couple lines of text on a pretty anonymous  forum, then they need to cut their  power and phone lines because they are more of a danger to themselves.

Real solid XYZ would take a diary of it's own just to dissect one of the many issues i have with him.  And to write it would be to met with a million troll ratings from Pro Obama surrogates before they even read and digested the gist of it.  One issue is clear....Obama's silly stance on cutting NASA funds to fund our schools (more).  The implications of this lack foresight, thought, and how innovation works on our research level that drives our technology.

It is the boldest and perhaps most damning evidence of Obama's lack of judgment and outlook on policy.  He cannot seem to see past step B on his own agendas.

And my thought was that Obama is the status quo once you remove all the fluff and filler.  I look at who advises him, how he guilt his chops and policy credentials, who did him favors, and who speaks for him now.

He is much like Bush, propped up by his supporters while they run his campaign, and maybe the country.  He doesn't have the same grasp of the world, or his policies that his advisers do.  And he is a rookie in the game of politics, pulled by the strings by the veterans like Kennedy, Kerry et el.

To dismiss these obvious signals is to create hari kari to the thinking mind.  

I think I will write that diary, filled with fun facts, numbers and pie charts.

That would make my opinion, more tasty wouldn't it?

Would make the oblivious more obvious?


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:45:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I'd welcome a hard hitting diary; and if you think you're in fear of Obama supporters on MyDD, heh, I'd ask if your fear comes the rec list which, for the past few months, has been strikingly and sometimes rabidly, anti-Obama; or perhaps the Clinton supporters who troll rate/hide rate anything with impunity?

I guess there's one thing that struck me in particular, though.

He is much like Bush, propped up by his supporters while they run his campaign, and maybe the country.  He doesn't have the same grasp of the world, or his policies that his advisers do.  And he is a rookie in the game of politics

I think these are some of Obama's biggest strengths.

Once upon a time, I was a front end supervisor. If you're not familiar, this means I was in charge of all the cashiers and lot techs at a $35 million dollar a year big box retail store, in charge of thirty-five people.

My career previously had been in merchandising. I had worked in, and run, several floor departments, where most of my responsibility was with ensuring orders were in, I was in stock, my areas were maintained, I had all my endcaps in shape, signs were up, things were merchandised creatively to sell, I knew all the metrics I was pegged by, where I stood on them, so forth and so on. The biggest number of employees I managed was about six or seven. I was consistently rated one of the best department supervisors, and ran my department to become one of the best performing in my district.

Then I was thrust into the Front End Supervisor position, which was a world apart from what I had been doing previously. Before, I had mostly relied on myself to get all the hard work done with department metrics and getting tasks done, and let my people concentrate on customer service. This was now completely impossible. I was plenty experienced, but there's no friggin' way I could apply that experience all by myself. The scope of my job was now simply too big.

At the time, I only had two Head Cashiers to help me; luckily both were supremely experienced. I worked with them to develop more head cashiers underneath me, all while I threw myself headfirst into the mechanics of my job. As I learned how to do the things I was expected to do, I passed on my knowledge to my new cadre of head cashiers, and relied on my more experienced pair to make up for the areas I was lacking in.

At the end, I had the best front end in the District, again, by all the metrics we were rated by. But to do that, I relied heavily on my head cashiers. Indeed, they did the bulk of the actual gruntwork. I did the gruntwork anytime it was needed, but they had their own areas they were proficient in. The business was better served by me making the overall judgment calls on important business decisions, and letting my head cashiers run their chunk of the business. This let me concentrate on the important things I needed to and customer service.

So, a bit wordy, but I hope you catch my drift. Obama's draw is not that he has all this "experience", which I've always found to be a misnomer. Clinton, to me, has almost no experience. Obama doesn't have a lot of experience, either, but the one sense I get from him is that he has a supreme ability to listen to advice and make proper judgments.

Look at how his campaign has succeeded where Clinton's has failed. She ran as if she were an incumbent; this was a coronation, not a primary; she had the thing wrapped up. And Obama, whom most of the country never heard of before this primary season, whom most of the country didn't know anything of substance about until January, has been schooling her consistently. Almost enough to overcome nearly 18 years of public exposure and name recognition for Hillary Clinton, and her almost-certainly just as long preparation for running for the Presidency.

He did this by letting his supporters, the grass-roots people in the field, do the vast majority of the work. There was no point in him micromanaging his campaign, or running it incredibly top-heavily, like Clinton did. He told us that he believed in us and what we could accomplish, and we didn't let him down. He knows how to apply his judgment and make decisions about the proper course, but he lets the people who know what the hell they're doing do just that.

Bush, on the other hand, doesn't have supporters who run his administration. He has a bunch of yes-men, who engage constantly in groupthink and ignore all contrary opinions. Thus, those that perfectly predicted Iraq were kicked out, for instance.

That's why I never personally understood why Clinton supporters made the "experience" argument. All her "experience" means nothing when she's the President. It's an entirely different ball-game, and Clinton strikes me as more of a Bush-type manager. Reward loyalty; those who disagree are to be shunned and kicked out. She knows best, and her advisors are there to support the message; any expertise they bring is for the sole purpose of supporting the message, not to encourage discourse or different possible actions.

Obama, on the other hand, shows much more flexibility and willingness to listen to opinions he may not personally agree with, and take advice that's right, instead of politically expedient or necessarily what he wants to hear. And again, he shows a willingness to find people who know what the hell their doing, let them do it, and provide the top-tier overview and judgment decisions.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

YES! nt (none / 0)


by nwgates on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

My post is not meant to sway anyone.  If anyone is able to be swayed by a couple lines of text on a pretty anonymous  forum, then they need to cut their  power and phone lines because they are more of a danger to themselves.

Thanks for explaining that to me.  Now I know that there is no reason to read your posts.

In all seriousness, if you've just come here to bash a candidate and proclaim that you won't vote for him/her, and you're not even trying to persuade others to accept your viewpoint, then why should anyone even bother to read your posts?  By your own admission, you're just flinging mud.

You might want to reconsider your goals.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:17:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Does the phrase "Associate Justic Orrin Hatch" mean anything to you?

I think the scary thing is, to a lot of older Clinton voters, wrecking the USSC for the next two decades isn't a big deal.

But, I have a daughter, and I think it's important enough, that, even though I am an Obama supporter, I would vote crawl over broken glass to vote for Clinton, to stop McCain or, McCains VP, who will probably serve most of his term, from replacing Stevens and Ginsburg.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Sorry I do not scare easily.  I doubt a very radical court justice has a very good chance of getting a nomination past our "democratic majorities".

There are too many checks and balances.  These worries are not real worries to sell out my rationale like that.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:35:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree.

I have been going to at least one USSC case for the last ten years, and the shift with Roberts and Alito on the court is palpable.

And, remember, they ALL rubber stamped Alito and Roberts?

Democrats like Schumer defended Roberts from being called a Radical Extremist?

And, with the Federalist Society being todays standard, it's not the case they would be considered extremist, that is how far we have been pulled to the right?

Orrin Hatch is an old friend to many US Senators on both sides.

You think they would filibuster him?

But, at any rate, I am not willing to risk it.

I would be disappointed if Obama doesn't get the nod, but I wouldn't take my pique out on generations to come....


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:45:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

I have seen no large standing changes since their appointing.  Can you point me to some?  Since you follow them throughly.  

From what I see on my research end, everything in rules, guidelines and such are all the same.  Well that funding is a bit light but otherwise nothing.

By definition a republican justice at his core is to be a staunch interpreter of the orginal constitution in his rulings.  I think you are more worried about evangelical rights being written into the constitution of which, McCain is not in bed with himself.

I do not worry for Roe vs Wade, and many woman I know see it as an after thought.  For what at one point was more a message of women's ownership of her body has become a political hackey sack to be kicked around for older women's support.

I do not see it's danger of extinction.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:01:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

You've seen no changes? Please tell me you're kidding, or at least admit that you're not familiar with the Roberts court's rulings.

Here's some.
limiting the use of race in school districting
Upholding the federal ban on so-called "partial-birth" abortions
dissented in a 5-4 decision requiring the EPA to regulate greenhouse gasses
And most damning,
severely limited the right to sue employers for wage discrimination

That's a pretty major impact for one term. I urge you to educate yourself on what the Court's been up to this past term. Realize that we are one 87-year-old Justice away from being completely at the mercy of activist Conservatives on the Court.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:28:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Again is this deconstructionist against the constitution?

I see State's rights

An upholding ruling, precedence case

A State right's environmental issue, which yes the EPA is powerless, they are not at the will of the state's to be able to regulate pollution.  

And Lastly, they are acting on an existing ruling, not an interpretation of a ruling.

I do not see any big changes to the constitution.

I agree that women are discriminated on with regards to pay but we need a new workforce discriminatory act because the old ruling is outdated.

You should contact your Democratic controlled congress.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:08:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

For someone who talks so  much about wanting concrete facts and plans, you seem woefully uninformed or willfully ignorant about the record of this court and for that matter, how the court functions. Another right wing vote on the court would be a disaster.

And besides, what exactly are you arguing for? Voting for McCain? Not voting at all? Its easy to say what you are against, but what are you for?


by AllergicToBS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:42:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

I am for not following a candidate just because that candidate might be a "democrat" and not voting democrat just for the good of the party.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Okey-dokey. How about being for voting in the general for the candidate who most closely approximates your beliefs and values? Even if it's not a perfect match--because it never will be, even if one's preferred candidate does win the party nomination. How about being for voting democrat for the good of the nation?

In other words, if Clinton does not get the Democratic nomination, who do you believe would better serve the interests of the nation: McCain or Obama?


by kydoc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dangerous attitude. (2.00 / 1)

You have a very cavalier attitude about Republican justices on the court.  Republicans like to talk a good game about interpreting based on original intent, but it is a canard.  Take for example the Scalia and Kennedy positions in U.S. v. Lopez compared to their positions in Gonzales v. Raich.

Scalia is held up as the ideal justice for the Republicans and he is always going on about following original intent.  Yet according to Scalia, when it comes to guns the government can not regulate them, but marijuana is 'different'.  Somehow though, we are supposed to believe he is principled.

So yes, as long as Republicans are willing, nay, eager to put unprincipled extremists on the court, control of the appointment power is tremendously important.  Just because they say they respect the original intent of the founders does not make it so.  Just look at John Yoo.  I'm surprised that I even have to explain this to anyone here.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:07:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Justices Alito and Thomas beg to differ.


by mefck on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:56:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

What have they changed?


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:26:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

The 1st Amendment. "Bong Hits for Jesus."




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:53:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Then why do you come to this site?


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Because I like political commentary, I read pro republican blogs too.

Just because you do not agree, doesn't mean you shun or abandon the ability to understand differing view points.

I feel this diary is more of a drop your reasoning and join the cause, for there is no cause.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:33:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

Well then...you just keep on making a difference, good work.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:14:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Am I supposed to make a difference on my dd?  Are you making a difference?

I save making a difference for the real world.  Where I try to get people to analyze judgments before jumping in an empty pool.


by Iamjustmakingapoint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:28:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

(pat on the back)  nice work...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:44:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, we are making a difference. (2.00 / 1)

Progressive bloggers get together to help support progressive candidates.  We don't just surf around the internet reading and making comments.  We pass along information about what events are coming up or what congressional candidates could use some help.

We inform ourselves about issues and candidates and use that information in the real world.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And we go to delegate conventions (2.00 / 2)

and elect other delegates.  Never seen so much participation in my life!  We see a chance at least to start to turn things around.  It's not on him, as Obama always says, it's on us.   If we give him a mandate, there's no telling where we could wind up.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:22:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Fantastic diary!  'nuff said.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:54:24 PM EST

I feel the same way as an Obama supporter (2.00 / 3)

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of this diary.  I posted a (poorly written) diary explaining my change in opinion about Hillary over on DKos (I'm an ardent Obama supporter) and got absolutely railed against for it.  When I downplayed the evilness of Hillary's "lies" about Bosnia and the pregnant woman, I was viciously and bitterly attacked again and again.  I find very little objectivity over there.  And to be honest, I found very little over here (in the opposite direction) until recently.  I don't have a lot of faith that their site will mirror yours in the change of sentiment, but I can hope.  A month ago I said "I would rather have Obama run in the general and lose than Hillary win the general" before realizing how ridiculous that was (with some prodding from a close friend).  Now I would be happy to vote for Hillary, though deeply disappointed if Obama lost the primary.  Thanks for a heartfelt diary.  


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:02:52 AM EST

Re: I feel the same way as an Obama supporter (2.00 / 1)

Deeply disappointed is right.

That's something I keep in mind constantly - and something I didn't realize was true for Clinton supporters too until not so long ago.  Most of us have been spending our lives pulling the lever for the compromise candidate - it's been election after election of John Kerries and Walter Mondales.

For me, this is the first time that I've been so inpsired by a candidate and so full of ideas about the kind of radical and sorely needed changes he can bring about.  And he actually might win?!  I've been waiting for the shoe to drop ever since Iowa.


by Mostly on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:36:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I feel the same way as an Obama supporter (none / 0)

LOL, just this morning I read a diary on DKos declaring the "primary wars" were over.
I don't think they realize that having chased off all the Hillary supporters, there is no one left to argue with anymore, and that's why things have calmed down there.
Here, OTOH, I have seen much more common sense and real reconciliation between supporters of both campaigns, so I'm encouraged that the Big Orange will come back to it's senses eventually.
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good point (none / 0)

I agree that there seems to be more fairness and reconciliation here, though that was not true until recently.  At best, things here were only slightly less bitter than things there for a long time.  I do agree that DKos has been far too bitter, but I don't agree that things have gotten much better there.  Even without many Clinton supporters there, they viciously attack any Obama supporter (like myself) who dares to present a nuanced view of Hillary, her campaign, or her supporters.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, sricki (2.00 / 4)

We'd all be fools if we allowed personality quibbles to prevent us from voting for the eventual nominee, regardless of who it is.  I'd be more than comfortable voting for Sen. Clinton in November, despite quibbles I have about her.  They vote practically the same policy-wise in the Senate.


You haven't seen impatient until you've seen a monkey waiting for a donut.
by bjones on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:10:49 AM EST

Good diary, sricki. I feel much the same as you. (2.00 / 7)

I will fight tooth and nail in support of and defense of Hillary but, when it comes to putting a Democrat in the WhiteHouse, I will gladly get onboard the Obama bandwagon should he win the nomination - but not until. As long as Hillary has a chance, I'm fighting for her and with her to secure the nomination.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:12:43 AM EST

Re: Good diary, sricki. I feel much the (2.00 / 2)

Agreed. As long as Hillary's in, I'm with her. I'm just going to make a better effort to keep a cool head about Obama.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

 Yeah, I just can't get past the blame and what it has done to relationships I have seen and how I see we all treat each other now. His words damaged the healing that had been taking place for so long. And now they want to have conversations about race in this country. I would hope that they would look at their own judgementalism, racism and bigotry before lashing out at everybody else.
  I have not yet heard Wright aplogize for his remarks and I don't believe Obama's were sincere.
 As I have said before, I am not a supporter of Imus, or Falwell but when they say something stupid publically, they have had to apologize publically. Has that been done-maybe I missed it...
  Also, the snub from Obama (SOTU)and other things negative-and deceitful I just cannot get past. Not when one claims to be so different and walking on morally higher ground.
  It's terrrific that you can past it I just cannot. I felt blamed for things that I have not nor ever could do because I am white, and I resent the hell out of that.
  Poverty and oppression see no color. Some people seem to think otherwise. It occurs to me some would think that only blacks in this country are poor or oppressed-folks look to the center the heartland of this country-there are poor and oppressed white people too but sometimes I forget that since I do not live in the heartland-the cities I see something different. My eyes, ears and mind over the years have been trained differently-maybe we/they should take a different approach-Poverty needs to be abolished period, I don't give a damn what color the person is-but it affects every American-

 "Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities,  are incapable of self government."

  Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette 1817.

And please don't attack me for quoting Jefferson, thanks.

  namaste


by artsykr on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:13:28 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I agree with you on a lot of that. I didn't think I'd get past it, either. But then I thought about the SCOTUS. And the troops. And my own wallet. The economy is hurting, and I'm hurting with it -- so are my family and friends. I guess you could say I have a pretty selfish motive to vote for the Democrat.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:23:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jefferson is a Great Example of a Leader (2.00 / 2)

I hope no one bashes you for quoting Jefferson.  That would be utterly ridiculous.  Jefferson made choices that went against his personal principles but would be positive for the nation (spending a ton of money on the Louisiana Purchase, ramping up the army and navy to take on Tripoli, ransoming American prisoners).  And while this may sound ridiculous to say about him considering he is consistently ranked as one of the top 5 U.S. presidents by academics and historians, I think he is underrated by many non-scholars.  An ABC poll of regular people put him consistently 10th or worst, behind George W. Bush!

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh-hstry.ht m  


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jefferson is a Great Example of a Leader (2.00 / 1)

As a Unitarian, I have a soft spot for Jefferson.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

You do realize that Wright and Obama are 2 different people. That conversations about issues are good things. That we should hate the sin and love the sinner. That if we look for fault in others we are bound to find it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say in most of this. Some of it strikes me a little as worrisome, as if you are saying we suffer from reverse racism. I don't think either candidate has done anything to encourage that nor called to only help one race of people. In fact, Obama's speech was the exact opposite.

As a white, rural  mid-westerner myself, what are you trying to say?


by IowaMike on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To Obama supporters (2.00 / 4)

I don't want this to come off sounding arrogant or snarky, but I think Obama supporters need to be a bit more magnaminous than they are being.  Our candidate is winning, and yet we are often more bitter and vicious than Hillary supporters who may have more reason to be legitimately angry because their candidate is losing.  It would be good if both sides could at least be civil.  This diary is a good start toward that.  MyDD is winning me over, slowly.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:17:32 AM EST

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

I'm grateful to you for that. There's been a lot of gloating. But recently, I've noticed that a lot of Obama supporters have seemed more respectful and gracious. In all honesty, reading those people's comments and talking to them has been very encouraging and helpful to me. It's part of what reminded me that you guys are human. Sorry, I know that sounds awful, but after being at DKos for so long, it kind of felt like Obama supporters were just vicious little robots, all programmed to attack Hillary and anyone who defended her. It's been overwhelmingly pleasant to discover that there are some very nice people who've chosen to back Obama.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

I wish alegre would rec your diary, instead of egging on the battle in her's.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:41:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 2)

I like DKos less and less because almost no one there is objective at all.  They don't understand how anyone could possibly support Hillary without being racist or irrational or somehow sexist (as in supporting any woman over any man).  They don't understand that the experience question is an important one to many Hillary supporters.  They don't understand that health care is the number one issue to many Hillary supporters and Hillary's plan goes farther than his in terms of socialized health care.  In my anecdotal evidence, health care is not the #1 priority for many Obama supporters at all, so they can't imagine how it could be for someone else.  It's not the lack of understanding that bothers me so much about DKos, it's the lack of any interest in trying to understand.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

You have a good understanding of Clinton supporters. Policy-wise, Kucinich would have been my top choice (especially because of his single-payer plan), but I knew he was unelectable. All the candidates wanted us out of Iraq, so I based my choice on healthcare, which easily narrowed it down to Edwards and Clinton. I had a hell of a time choosing. Arguably, Edwards' healthcare plan was (slightly) superior, but the differences were miniscule. I had more faith in Hillary's ability to be Commander in Chief, and I thought she was more electable. It was actually a very clinical decision. I would have always been happy with Edwards (still would be). In the beginning, healthcare was my only beef with Obama, but it was (and remains) a significant problem for me.

And I can understand why some Obama supporters won't vote for Hillary. The AUMF vote was just too much for some people.

by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 0)

The AUMF vote is the number one objection I have always had with Hillary. It still burns me to this day. That whole period was one giant fiasco, and I like many other Democrats knew it. I know Hillary claims she was operating on bogus information, but that really doesn't help in my eyes. She's an intelligent woman; I don't believe her when she says she was fooled or misled. I think that's true of most of the Democrats who voted for the AUMF. I'm plenty unhappy with them too, but they aren't running for President and claiming to be a fighter etc.

I guess that's what it boils down to really: I don't believe Hillary while I do believe Obama. I guess we'll see if I am still singing the same tune 8 years from now should he win the Presidency.


by tessellated on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 0)

AUMF was a disappointing moment for Hillary -- and for a lot of Democrats. I have a lot of different theories about why she voted that way, some more pleasant than others. I don't approve of what she did, but I think she'll bring the troops home, which is what matters most to me.

I suppose part of it does come down to who you believe. In general, I don't know whether I believe either of them. They're both politicians, and they both lie. They both make tactical political moves which run contrary to my ideals (and theirs, too). I believe Hillary would be an exceptionally effective president, though. I haven't bothered to form much of an opinion on what kind of president Obama would be, but I don't think he'd be a bad one.

by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:27:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (none / 0)

I can understand what you're saying.  But as I find out more about HRC (and I am a supporter), it's clear to me that she both loves this country and has worked within the system to change it.  I didn't like her vote, but I can understand it.  She said (and I am paraphrasing) in a time of war, the Commander-in-Chief needed to be given the benefit of the doubt.  I do believe her when she says she had to make a decision, and she felt it was the right one, at that time.  During the Vietnam War she supported Eugene McCarthy, an anti-war candidate--but that conflict was pretty cut and dried.  The Vietnamese had not attacked us; unfortunately, for us 9-11 happened and things got a lot more personal. Even though there were many people out in the streets protesting against going to war, there were just as many who wanted action.  I'm not justifying her vote; heck, my own research made it pretty clear to me that we shouldn't attack Iraq, but in the heat of what happened in 2001-I can understand it, and I don't believe it was a cynical move.


by TinaH1963 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (none / 0)

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback these things especially 5 years later. The thing is, I knew it was wrong at the time. I knew -- I told people who would listen -- 3 days after 9/11 that we would go to war with Iraq whether or not they were responsible. That's the honest truth. Just as clearly I remember how politicians left and right folded like lawn chairs in the face of massive idiocy. Precious few were brave enough to speak up.

That's what upsets me so much to this day. It was as obvious to me as the nose on my face. We all make mistakes. The problem is that was the most pivotal vote of her entire life. She was one of the very, very few Democrats who might have changed the public discourse had she spoke out. The Iraq War may well prove to be one of the most important strategic decisions this country has made in decades.

And it was utterly and completely wrong.

I can understand why she did what she did too, but that doesn't really help. Either she just doesn't have the sort of vision needed for these kinds of game changing decisions or she doesn't have the courage of her convictions.


by tessellated on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:14:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (none / 0)

Perhaps...but I will continue to take her at her word.  You're absolutely right-people do make mistakes, and sometimes they're huge.


by TinaH1963 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 02:01:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But Edwards voted for AUMF, too! n/t (none / 0)


by bobswern on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 0)

That's interesting because healthcare is my #1 issue.  I was a Kucinich supporter too at one time.  Now I'm an Obama supporter.  I don't see much difference in their healthcare plans but I feel that the mandates are political suicide.

Interestingly enough, I know two republicans who will vote for Obama in November and they told me it was because we need to do something about the uninsured.

Honestly, I think the final health insurance plan that will come out of congress will be whatever it will be no matter who our candidate is.  I also think that after the election, if congress feels that mandates are the way to go then Obama will go along with it.  He hasn't dug in his heels regarding that as far as I've seen.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

So then - -
Why do you troll rate someone who is offended by a statement saying that GLBTI people are an affront to the civil rights movement????

Gay men have been using the term "uppity faggot" for a generation to describe situations where basic human rights are denied us.  It's part of the gay lingo - bitter and biting - but brutal in its ability to describe in a nutshell.

I suggest you turn your sensibility meter down a notch or two.
Seeing that you have been here all of one day.
If magnanimity is really what you wish.


by johnnygunn on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:41:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

First, I've been reading hear a while, though I only signed up last week.  I rated your comment the same way as if you said the N-word.  Sorry, you don't get to say "well, I'm using it sarcastically, so it's ok."  I found it offensive in the context.  If that's not what rating is for, then what is it for?


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:48:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

Of course -
It's MUCH worse to say the word "faggot"
Than to say that Queer people are an affront to the civil rights movement.
I'm glad you have your priorities in place.
by johnnygunn on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

Just because I found your comment offensive doesn't mean I agree with the side you are rejecting.  I just don't agree with the way you did it.  And maybe I am being too sensitive.  I should have thought more about your intentions before I troll rated.  I'm sorry for that.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To Obama supporters (2.00 / 1)

I think that part of my problem with the HRC campaign is that everyone knows except for her that it's over, and she was continually slinging mud to drag Obama down, in what was called the Tonya Harding strategy

Fortunately, I think someone got to her and she stopped with the attacks. Now she can just ride off into the sunset and hopefully help the Senate go forward with a more progressive agenda.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Uncalled for comment... (2.00 / 2)

...certainly, given the tone of the diary and the comments here.

It's a shame folks have to inject candidate rants into the comments on a diary like this. They should get a clue.


by bobswern on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:16:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Uncalled for comment... (none / 0)

No. Absolutely called for. I was explaining why it is difficult to be as gracious about it as I would like to be.

Topical, and insightful.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:22:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

While I have chosen a different path sricki, I certainly can respect your decision.


by monstergrrl on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:21:07 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

I respect yours, as well. Heh, I'm certainly in no position to tell people what they should do with their votes.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

Fantastic diary. We've got two great candidates, and I'm always encouraged when people can recognize that fact.


by jdusek on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:45:52 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I can only say that if it's your sympathy for Wright that mostly inclines you to think that Hillary supporters have gone off the rails, you've lost me.

More than anything else, it's the Wright affair that makes me profoundly skeptical of Obama's judgment, and his moral bearings.

I don't believe Obama's assertions that he really knew nothing about the more inflammatory things Wright has said. I find it far more plausible that not only was Obama aware of them, he's probably heard worse in private from Wright -- because it's always in private that people really let loose their  most outrageous comments.

After hearing Wright's public comments, and knowing of Obama's intimate association with him, and of the fact that he has essentially entrusted basic aspects of his own daughters' moral instruction to Wright, I simply, and in all sincerity, have no idea which moral principles Obama holds so dear that he won't compromise them. I will simply say: it is unthinkable to me that I would have heard any of a number of the things that Wright has uttered and stayed in that church, for even a single day longer.

Fundamentally, I don't care if Wright's views arise from the crucible of African-American experience. There are beliefs that are so false, divisive, and detestable that no historical context can excuse them. I'm sorry, but if you think it's permissible to lie about the origin of AIDS, and claim that our "white government" has contrived it and spread it, then you are, in my view, lost in a moral wilderness yourself.

I do not want to have a President about whose most basic moral values I feel I have no firm grip.  

Obama may certainly be better an alternative than McCain, but the Wright business shows a morally deficient streak in him that renders him little more than the lesser of two evils.


by frankly0 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:54:57 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 1)

I understand your sentiments, so I'm not going to argue with you, but:
I'm sorry, but if you think it's permissible to lie about the origin of AIDS, and claim that our "white government" has contrived it and spread it, then you are, in my view, lost in a moral wilderness yourself.

I don't think Wright was lying. He truly believes that. Actually, I don't think it's an unusual belief in the AA community. After the Tuskegee Experiment, I'm not surprised.

by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

If Wright truly believes that, then he is a lunatic and a dangerous one, because he passes this pernicious falsehood onto others. If he can't see that the Tuskegee experiments do not constitute sufficient ground to believe that AIDS has been created by our government, when there is so much countervailing evidence, then he is unworthy of his position of authority.

Really, I don't know how you can act as if this belief is in any way excusable in a figure of Wright's responsibility.

Again, I don't care about the "African-American experience" when it comes to beliefs like that. What's false and divisive and evil is false and divisive and evil. I can in some sense "understand" how most African-Americans once upon a time believed that OJ was innocent after his trial (as polls revealed), but I know that that belief is manifestly false and inexcusable to hold, if it allows a murderer to roam our streets.

In the end, whatever our historical context, truth and reality and the good must be fundamentally respected, or we are all lost. Before such considerations, we must all bow.


by frankly0 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

I think the context for the OJ trial was about 100 years of blacks getting the short end of the justice stick.

It's hard for most white people to get the black anger issue, but what is most interesting, is, probably the BEST modern politician to get it was Bill Clinton.

Funnier even, I would bet my bottom dollar, Bill Clinton, who is been in plenty of black churches in his time, has heard stuff as strong or worst the Rev Wright.

And, I bet my NEXT bottom dollar, IF Hillary wasn't running, the STRONGEST democratic voice condemning the Right Wing Hannity machine for taking a couple minutes of the life of a black pastor and creating a hate-machine..

Would be none other then Bill Clinton.


Support the separation of Church and State: Vote YES on WA R-71!
by WashStateBlue on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Given that Bill Clinton in fact explicitly criticized Wright's kind of white hatred in his Sistah Souljah moment, I find that hard to believe.

Bill Clinton, unlike Obama, understands there are limits to "understanding". In the end, even oppressed groups must take responsibility for reining in their own resentment and anger, because it damages both the world at large and themselves.

For example, all the history of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust itself does not justify the brutal treatment of Palestinians in Israel. Barbarity is barbarity; pernicious lies are pernicious lies; hatred is hatred -- historical context be damned.


by frankly0 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:29:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

I don't hear hatred in his words. I hear resentment and some anger.

I mean, this is a man who has had friends die for having the gall to be born Black.. There is some resentment bound to be had.

He is a conspiracy theorist, not a hatemonger. Again, Wright = Dale Gribble, if Dale did alot of good in the community, and had spent the majority of his years in service.


Hell yeah we did.
by Darknesse on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

Have you actually read his sermons?

I did and they, combined with Obama refusal to do the conventional "throw under the bus"  cemented my support for Obama.

It is exactly respect for his ethics and judgement that resulted.

Conversely, Hillary's failure to stand up for Wright has greatly diminished her in my eyes.


by wrb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:10:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 2)

Props, sricki. Interesting, you seem to have brought out a ton of lurkers to rec this diary.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:55:14 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (none / 0)

It has been a decent night for fair diaries on rec list.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:04:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

Wow...just wow, that was absolutely tremendous....I too need to o a little soul searching...thank you so much!!!


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:01:11 AM EST

TESTIFY! (2.00 / 3)

Diaries do not come any finer.


Take your fear and shove it, it ain't workin' on us no more.
by Quicklund on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:10:06 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 4)

I would like to highly recommend this post and give it a big mojo.

Originally I had gone about half way down uprating so many of the great comments on this thread, but I acidetally clicked something and they were all gone.

So instead of going back through and reading them all again I would like to send out a big thank you and sincere appreciation for any by all the great comments in this thread.

I know that at times I have also gotten pretty peived and edgy in my comments, but I have tried to scale it back and am glad to see that others are willing to do the same.

Lastly I would like to say that whomever wins this nomination is the person we should all work to elect in the fall.  I know that I will, since I don't believe this country can take another 4 years of the madness that has been Republican rule.


by Why Not on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:32:00 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! (2.00 / 3)

Well said, and thanks for being one of the truly SANE people on this site!

rec'd


Torture me once, shame on you; torture me and get away with it, shame on us all.
by freedom78 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:33:11 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update (none / 0)

So WTF was this about?

Re: ABCNews: Clinton's Claim (0.60 / 15)

What a f*cking whore she is. Let's write a petition to make her stop lying and hating minorities.

I am a member of the forgotten demographic: a young, educated, wine-drinking, latte-sipping Independent for Hillary Clinton.
by sricki on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:26:37 PM EST


by Jeter on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:20:41 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update (none / 0)

That was very angry sarcasm, and if you'd read a little farther down that thread, you'd have realized it. There's a petition going around which demands that Hillary drop out of the race because she's "encouraging resentment toward others based on the color of their skin". That petition made me furious and was actually what pushed me over into "I'm not voting for Obama" territory for awhile. Also, Randi Rhodes (an ardent Obama supporter) recently called Hillary a "big f***ing whore", which is why I chose those specific words on the heels of "Randigate". That comment really had no relevance to the diary it was posted in. But it was an anti-Hillary diary, and I was in a rotten mood, so I said it to be a disruptive ass.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update (2.00 / 1)

++mojo for being self-aware. You demonstrate here something that I aspire to and wish all of us could do more of. We all get angry, many of us post while angry and approach trollishness when we do so. Fewer of us have the grace to look back on it and say "in that instance, I was trying to be a disruptive ass."

I like your style.  


by kydoc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I will support the Dem nominee, whomever it is. (2.00 / 2)

Good diary.

Its fair to say that I was a soft Edwards supporter for much of the early campaign.  From that perspective, it can be hard to understand how people can get so worked up about what seems to me like minor differences between the candidates.

I also think it is interesting how you came to feel the way you do today.  The Wright controversy also brought me from leaning just a hair toward Obama to being an actual supporter.  For me, it was Obama's reaction to the controversy.  His remarks on race from his speech really spoke to me because he articulated his values in such a way that people with all different ethnicities could understand.  It told me that he 'gets it' and that he could really go a long way toward healing the racial divide through his leadership.

You are working to heal a different divide yourself and I respect you immensely for it.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:48:19 AM EST

Thanks Sricki (2.00 / 3)

You're one of the reasons I come here more often than DKos. With nearly half the democrats in the US supporting Hillary (give or take a few percent) I knew I had to understand what others (including my Polish girlfriend) really saw in her. Diaries like your make me realise how passionate supporter of Hillary are about her qualities.

I've felt pretty passionate about Obama since 2004, but I also know this is the real world of politics (as well as a more wishful world of hope) and have to see his failings and shortcomings as well. Just as you've made me see beyond some of Hillary's failings, you've also made me see some of the possible weak points of Obama. And a true supporter helps defend his or her candidate against their WEAKNESSES as well as their strengths.

Standing back a bit, it was always potentially tragic and catastrophic that two such huge CHANGE candidates, Hillary and Obama, would be pitted against each other in the same primaries. It was also bound to breach some of the most poisonous wounds in US society (and beyond): racism and sexism. It's no wonder it got nasty.

But some people have been big enough to get beyond this. You're one. In the last few weeks I'm beginning to see how this potential nightmare can have had beneficial effects. If Obama does win the nomination, he would have been tried and tested by two of the smartest politicians of his generation: Bill and Hillary. And if he beats them fair and square, I am glad he will have your support. He'll need it. He'll need all the passion and commitment the real Hillary supporters have shown on this site. If he gets it, McCain will be blown away.


Moose Juice; debate without hate
by brit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:12:27 AM EST

Love you sricki (2.00 / 3)

I'll try to remember what you wrote when I'm angry about the Clinton campaign.


by hebi on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:40:24 AM EST

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (2.00 / 1)

I'm always annoyed by people who seek to portray themselves as neutral peacemakers by wrapping themselves in the cloak of sanctimonious superiority.

"Overzealous" Clinton supporters? Please. That's a laughable assertion if ever there was one.

Barack Obama is disenfranchising 2.3 million Democrats so he can secure a nomination of the Democratic Party. Now, that's the very definition of "overzealous."

No nominee who got there by suppressing Democratic votes in two states will ever get my vote.


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:49:10 AM EST

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

psst:

http://www.alternet.org/story/73782/

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but take a look and think about what people in glass houses shouldn't do.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

Just in case you think something is wrong with that other link.  Here's another from RCP:
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics /2008/01/clinton_statement_on_nv_lawsui. html
John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:45:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

no. he's. not.

Care to support your claim that "Barack Obama is disenfranchising 2.3 million democrats"?


by kydoc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

That is too bad that you seem to support a 4-year extension to Bush policies.

We will win in November w/o you. The majority of America and the blogosphere will DUMP BUSH & McCain!!


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

door hit your ass on way out etc.


by amiches on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

He isn't doing anything of the sort unless he's a GOD as he doesn't control MI or FL. If he's a GOD you better watch out I guess.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm neither overzealous or naive... (none / 0)

I'm sorry but repeating these false accusations you sound like a dittohead or a fox news viewer. We're supposed to better than that.

Obama and Clinton both agreed to the rules about how Floridan and Michigan were going to be handled. Clinton was fine with the situation until she started losing.


by cmize on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good post (2.00 / 6)

I like Barack Obama.  He would make a good President.  I just don't think that he would make as good a President as Hillary Clinton would.   I believe that he is a good man, and an inspiring person.


by activatedbybush on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:17:10 AM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update (2.00 / 2)

Great diary Sricki. I am very appreciative of people who manage to look past the infighting and name calling, even if they have sometimes been dragged into it themselves. This is one of the things I really appreciate about Obama as well, he has a highly nuanced understanding of complex issues and an ability to see several sides of an argument. I would have been very disappointed with him if he had completely disavowed Rev Wright (though clearly some of what he said was outside the bounds). Sricki makes a good point that it is understandable after events like the Tuskeegee experiment that it is no wonder that some African Americans harbor such distrust towards the government. SO I very much appreciate Obama's ability to get beyond the entrenched positions and to see common ground. And I really appreciate this kind of dialogue on this site, which had gotten embarrassingly juvenile for a while. Two thumbs up for Sricki!


by wasder on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:44:40 AM EST

Re: voting in the GE (2.00 / 4)

I bow to no one in my fervent support for Hillary, but I can understand quite easily the feelings of those who support Barack (2 of my 3 kids are among them). However, I CANNOT understand any supporter of either Hillary or Barack who would vote for McCain in the GE rather than vote for whoever is the nominee of the Democratic Party. It's one thing to vote for McCain because you really believe he's the best one for the job - that's what Republicans will do - but it's quite another to vote for him out of spite because your preferred candidate didn't get the nomination of our party. If McCain wins, those people will have blood on their hands - the blood of soldiers killed in indefensible conflicts, the blood of women killed by back-alley abortions after Roe v Wade is overturned, the blood of children who die because their uninsured parents can't afford to take them to the doctor. If you are one of those people, shame on you.


Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST

Re: Overzealous Obama Supporters (none / 0)

There is simply no comparison which can credibly be offered between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters.  

The venom which certain anonymous Obama supporters direct towards any woman who stands up for Hillary's candidacy has opened my eyes and shocked me many, many times. Especially coming from supposed fellow Democrats.

Anne Kornblut responds to those "overzealous Obama supporters" after she deletes some of their "comments" responding to her article about Chelsea Clinton--"comments" which involve vile, disgusting language, profanity, and offensive commentary. Apparently, those "overzealous" Obama supporters are so filled with obsessive Hillary Hate that they even hate her daughter.

Chelsea Draws Fire, Profanity

Anne E. Kornblut's article on Chelsea Clinton's role in her mother's campaign for the presidency has produced several inappropriate, foul-mouthed comments that make it difficult to defend our policy of not prescreening reader views before they find their way on the site.

Kornblut writes that "In light of a string of setbacks for her mother's campaign, including impolitic remarks by her father, Chelsea is arguably the most seamless part of the struggling Clinton operation." Some of our commenters ask why this is news, others answer that question, and some debate her value to the campaign.

There is no question that the Clintons generate strong responses and reactions, both positive and negative. Fair enough. But there have been a number of just plain hateful and otherwise totally inappropriate comments. I have asked they be removed and at this writing, they have been.

washingtonpost.com does not review comments before they go live and lets those who comment use screen names. Most of the time this policy works pretty well, although there are almost always nongermane comments and a few inappropriate ones, which other commenters notice and correct or deride as part of an often entertaining, self-policing enterprise. I have defended it to my old-school, print-raised contemporaries. But there was no defense for some of the comments on this article this morning.

Here's the link and the article.
http://tinyurl.com/4t2dxg


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:10:45 PM EST

Re: Overzealous Obama Supporters (none / 0)

There are some overzealous Obama supporters who scare the crap out of me. Some of them are positively nutty. But there aren't too many of them on MyDD (a few, but it's not overwhelming). And that's the difference -- for the longest time, I thought it was only the Obama supporters who were mean-spirited and cruel. Now I realize a lot of Hillary supporters fit that bill, too. I do believe there's a larger number of spiteful Obama supporters, but I think that's just a proportionality issue. There seem to be more Obama supporters on the 'Net in general (maybe it's a "youth" thing), so it's not surprising.
by sricki on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:28:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Overzealous Obama Supporters (none / 0)

A) You're making a ridiculous over-generalization. The people who use such abusive language certainly do not represent all Obama supporters, and in fact my guess would be that they are an infinitesimal percentage of Obama supporters.

B) You're wrong anyway, to say that there's no comparison to be drawn. I just glanced over at http://www.hillaryis44.org and within 20 seconds found comments accusing Obama supporters of worshiping him like Jesus, and stating that he's actually like Jim Jones. That was just at a glance. I've also seen profanity directed at Obama supporters, and endless insults. Some (few) HRC supporters are exactly as bad as the (also few) Obama supporters you're talking about.


by kydoc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Overzealous Obama Supporters (none / 0)

How do you know those comments were from Obama supporters?

There is a local political site I've read for years, perhaps 200 people participate, about equally divided between Dems and righties.

So I know each poster.  There has been lots of misogynist and just petty attacks on Hillary (her ankles are too fat!) and different on Barak HUSSAIN  Obama-- but they have only come from those who've been defending Bush for years.

Obama and Hillary never unfairly attacked the other candidate. I was always "I prefer x but we have great candidates.

This started to shift a bit with the seeming tacit endorsement of  racial strife by the Clinton campaign, the sound-biting of Wright and the CIC threshold McCain endorsement, but on the dem side the tone was mostly disappointment, mixed at some anger that such would likely result in a Republican victory & a lot of dead people.

I think some Clinton supporters are transferring the sentiments of those on the right who are trying to sew strife to Obama supporters, most of whom spent 8 years defending the Clintons.


by wrb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:44:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Overzealous Obama Supporters (none / 0)

I disagree with you on this.  I think many posters are talking about left-leaning sites...I know I am, and I felt run out of town on a rail on most of them, all because I support HRC.  My intelligence and integrity was impugned constantly, as was my committment to progressive politics.


by TinaH1963 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary is pro union and pro worker...pluheeez (1.00 / 1)

http://www.publicintegrity.org/clintonwa lmart/index.htm


by mageduley on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 01:18:49 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update (1.00 / 2)

Yes! Contribute to Hillary! Pay Mark Penn's salary!


John McCain the flip-flopper...
by chinapaulo on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:26:28 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous HRC Supporters! [update (2.00 / 2)

thank you


by wrb on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:28:17 PM EST

Re: THANK You, Overzealous (2.00 / 2)

It's encouraging to see diaries like this. We need to unite in order to win in November. This campaign has gotten a bit out of hand at times on all sides. It's great to see the change in tone that seems to have occurred at MyDD since some of the worst offenders were banned a couple of weeks ago.


by dmc2 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:59:47 PM EST

Re: THANK You, (none / 0)

This is satire.. right?


by Catriley sez on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:14:57 PM EST

This is Daily Kos (none / 0)

pretty sad, huh?


by internetstar on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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