The Primary Fatigue Effect

Just over a week ago, I suggested that the race, after having tipped Obama's way slightly, was correcting back to what was essentially a tie as it has often done in the absence of a primary to shift momentum one candidate's way or the other. And for a day or two it seemed to do just that. But over the past few days, Obama seems to have reversed that trend as he's re-opened impressive leads in the daily tracking polls.

Gallup:

Obama 51 (52, 49, 49...)
Clinton 43 (43, 46, 44...)

Rasmussen:

Obama 50 (51, 51, 50...)
Clinton 41 (40, 41, 42...)

It's rare for these two polls to be in such agreement and one has to think that it's a function of several bad news days for the Clinton campaign. But the suggestion that something else is at play has been creeping into coverage of the primary.

On the tightening Pennsylvania race, PA native Howard Fineman recently said:

The other thing is I think the Democrats -- and even Democrat voters out there who are not strategists or superdelegates, but just voters -- may be beginning to worry about the length of the campaign, may be beginning to worry about the attacks back and forth. In Pennsylvania, the voters have the privilege -- if they want to -- of making the final decision: Do you want the thing to end now, or do you want it to go on?

And then this from PPP's analysis of its latest North Carolina poll in which Obama holds a 21 point lead:

One reason may be that Democratic voters want the nomination contest to be over. 43% of likely voters said they were concerned that the drawn out campaign between Clinton and Obama would hurt Democratic prospects this fall. Within that group, Obama has a 29 point lead, which could be an indication that some folks are moving toward his camp because they see a decisive victory for him as a way to end the infighting and shift the focus to John McCain.

It's an interesting thought. Certainly the Clintons have used the idea that primaries were make or break for Hillary to their advantage and her victories in New Hampshire, Ohio and Texas were largely seen as proxy votes for the primary race to continue. But that can cut both ways. Is primary fatigue working against Clinton now?

It's hard to say but by the looks of two of the most recent polls out of Pennsylvania, it looks like voters there aren't near ready for this to be over.

CandidatePPP  4/7-8 (3/31-4/1)Survey USA 4/5-7 (3/29-31)
Clinton46 (43)56 (53)
Obama43 (45)38 (41)



Display:


Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (1.00 / 2)

I've been think this for a few weeks now. If Obama somehow pulls of an upset in PA is will be because people are beginning to realize that Clinton cannot win and want this to be over.
I don't think a whole lot of voters will vote solely on this issue, but i think it might cause a lot of late deciders to back Obama.
by BlueGAinDC on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:50:58 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Obama will not win Pennsylvania that much I can safely say.

PPP seems to have picked up some movement towards Clinton like Survey Usa did ( larger than usual ).


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:54:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

there's 13 days left. enough time for momentum to swing back to Hillary and then back to Obama again. I don't think its likely Obama wins PA. He may very well lose by 20 points. But I think if he's got the momentum going into the home stretch (which is a big IF), and its a narrow 5 point race, I think late deciders may break for him and give him a narrow victory.
I wouldn't call it likely, but I think its possible.
by BlueGAinDC on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

agreed . . . I don't expect it to be closer than 53/47 win for HRC.

The MSM is trying to make it close to sell ads, but it would be a shocker if he pulled out a nailbiter!?


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

47 would be a high mark for him to reach.

I would peg his maximum to 45.

55 - 45.

I am expecting a 10 point win like ohio.

The high end for Clinton I expect would be

57 - 43 .

14 points.

Needless to say , I think her win would likely be between 10 - 14 points.

If Obama can win PA , then I expect Clinton o pack it up shortly after that , maybe the next day.

It won't happen.

 


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I agree except for I would lower your range to 8-12%
not 10-14%, I think Obama has a great chance to do single digits but then we will account for the same dayers going for Hillary.

but I think it will be 8-12%


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:22:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I think the shiny happy scenario is 51.5-48.5, but worst case is 57-43.

Worst case means  he loses ALL undecideds in these final weeks. Best case means he gets all undecideds.

They will split undecides, so 54-46 is more likely.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Huh, that's the range I'm in right now too.


by NewOaklandDem on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

Out of curiosity what makes you able to safely say anything?

I am not asking this to be rude. I am asking because everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the way you stated this seems to imply that you believe you have more than the opinion of an interested observer.

I am an Obama supporter who believes that he will lose PA by somewhere between 3-7% but I also have been working campaigns in the state for the last 3+ years- which I feel gives me some understanding of what is going on here now.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

I am not asking this to be rude. I am asking because everyone is entitled to an opinion,

- That just about sums it up.

I have no special insight into anything that is going on , although I have been helping out on calls to PA for the last few weeks (Bucks and Montgomery area especially) and I have had a really encouraging response from the calls I am making and I have heard that from others who are volunteering in other areas of the commonwealth as well.

Its just my opinion , not by any means the final outcome.

If he wins between 3 - 7 points like you believe then I would obviously be wrong lol.

Ed Rendell seems to agree with you , he says anything between 6 - 10 points.

My personal opinion is what I stated nothing else.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:44:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Sounds good to me :-)
I just wondered... I was, if anything, hoping you had some insight that I don't have.
ENOUGH!
by JDF on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:08:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

PPP change is within margin of error (none / 0)

Although SUSA suggests movement towards Clinton, the change in PPP is within the margin of error.  Unless new numbers come out for PPP, we cannot claim any statistically significant change in this poll.


by nrioq on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i hear that a lot in pennsylvania... (2.00 / 1)

in fact, i canvassed a 5 (strong clinton supporter) who signed an obama pledge card (pledging to vote for barack) because he's decided that the primary needs to end and democrats need to refocus on defeating mccain...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:54:35 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

I think those two polls are the only ones trending towards CLinton right now so that is a bit of subjective reasoning. But the premise of your post is a fair one. I would be surprised however if people would consciously vote in such a calculated way to end a race rather than just vote for who they wanted to win. As an obama supporter I hope that the voters in PA see fit to end this thing now but I am not counting on it and I doubt in the end that this kind of primary fatigue will have much to do with people's voting patterns.

I think that the overall shift in the national tracking polls reflects a sense that the race is really in a place where it is fairly static with Obama in front and barring any kind of collapse there is really no chance for Clinton to catch up in any substantive way. That message, having been finally adopted by the media, would seem to be having an effect on the national numbers.


by wasder on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:55:23 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Isn't there a corruption and racketeering trail going on in Chicago right now?


by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:55:34 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 3)

For a month or more now. And we're still waiting for the Perry Mason moment you people are all fantasizing about.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

"Trail" -
What a Freudian slip!
by johnnygunn on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillraiser sitting in prison... (none / 0)

right now (remember good old Norman Hsu). What's your point?

Hsu raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for Democratic officials during his brief, illustrious, and possibly criminal career. One of the chief beneficiaries of his largess was Clinton, who returned nearly a million dollars in donations tied to the disgraced businessman.


by JoeCoaster on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillraiser sitting in prison... (none / 0)

Obama took money from Hsu as well:

Tuesday, Barack Obama's spokesperson said the Senator would not give up the donations received from Norman Hsu.

... spokesman Jen Psaki said Obama, who has criticized Clinton for taking contributions that could undermine her independence, had no plans to return Hsu's donations.

Today, he's had a change of heart.

A spokesman for Senator Barack Obama, the Illinois Democrat who is a rival of Mrs. Clinton for the party's presidential nomination, said Mr. Obama intended to give away $7,000 that Mr. Hsu contributed to his committees.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/8/30/ 235854/544


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

PPP has consistently polled quite strongly in favor of Obama, I feel like...I could be wrong, though.

National polls right now are nigh meaningless.  There is a long road to go before we wrap this up entirely, the national sentiment can turn on a dime, and the Democratic primary is simply not a national election.  Hillary's had a pretty tough week in the news, but she's clearly still hanging in there in PA.  If she pulls out a big win there as in OH, I'm pretty sure you'll see the dynamic of the race (and the national polls) change dramatically.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:57:45 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I could have sworn I just read you in another diary say that the national polls that show Obama losing to Mccain are cause to worry and we should go with HRC because the polls say Obama cant pick up states we need.

BUT the polls shouldn't be listened to when they reflect badly on HRC because national polls right now are nigh meaningless?!

come on!


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:01:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I'm not worried about national polls against John McCain, I'm worried about state-by-state polls, which have him losing the electoral college even under the rosiest of circumstances in the states that Obama is considered to be competitive in.  The GE also is not the Democratic primary, which is completely Byzantine by comparison.  That's a pretty substantial distinction.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I think we can safely say that state by state polls for elections that won't be held for 7 months can safely probably be considered not that important right now.

I mean 7 months? nothing can change in 7 months, but hillary should stay in because we don't know what could change in 8 weeks?


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Everything can change in 7 months, but for a Democrat starting at a disadvantage in as critical states as Obama is, it is not a good omen by any means.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

You mean like Hillary polling poorly in several other "Kerry", such as WI, OR and WA?  That kind of disadvantage?


by leshrac55 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 2)

This type of concern trolling is absolutely ridiculous and needs to stop.

Look at the electoral map graphics on the MyDD homepage for the love of God.

Obama may not be as strong as Hillary in some states, but he more than makes up for it in other states he can pull that Hillary appears to be unable to do so.


by sorrodos on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Just out of curiousity, how do you define "concern trolling"?  I have seen that applied to people just voicing their opinions/concerns and while I agree that diaries started with the premise of some off the wall threat/problem could be considered trolling I think applying this term to anyone expressing their feelings is a bit dismissive.


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

General Election Polls are meaningless right now (none / 0)

And not because Election day is 7 months away. Its meaningless because of the hardened supports for each candidate that swear they will vote McCain if their candidate looses. Once the primary is over and emotions have cooled down I imagine you will see at least a 5 point swing towards the democratic nominee, whoever they are. The "My candidate or McCain" voters are poisoning the polls.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: General Election Polls are meaningless right n (none / 0)

Obama being down by 11 in Florida is not entirely meaningless, sorry to say.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Democrats shouldn't hang their hat on Florida (2.00 / 3)

Given the results of the last few elections and current trends if we're hanging our hat on Florida we're screwed. Democrats need to stop running the same strategy cycle after cycle after cycle. Besides, if you look at electoral-vote.com today Senator Clinton carries Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio, the holy three that everyone fawns over as the key to victory and... still looses to McCain who carries 273 EVs.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Democrats shouldn't hang their hat on Florida (2.00 / 1)

I have to agree.  Obama's support draws on a much more diverse group of voters and that helps him make a lot of states more competitive.

The thing I worry about with a Clinton-McCain general election (though I personally would work very hard to help her overcome this in Wisconsin and Minnesota), is that while her support is very entrenched, so is her opposition.  I just don't see the gains that Clinton could make in the general as being anywhere near as valuable as those Obama could make.

When it comes down to it, I think both candidates could beat McCain pretty handily.  These national numbers are coming through without McCain having to take any hits on his terrible policy position (and his temper...you really have to imagine he's going to blow it at some point on some reporter or  his wife) AND they don't include the eventual coalescence among the democrats around their candidate.  No matter how many Hillary or Obama supporters plan to make the stupidest decision of their lives by not voting for whichever democrat comes through the nomination, a lot will change their minds once we get to the general.

To tie it back to the general election and the electoral votes, a 3% boost (which is pretty cautious estimate, in my opinion) across the board for the democratic nominee does a lot more for Obama than it does for Hillary, given how many more states are in play for him versus for Hillary.  She'll still win it if she's the nominee, but Obama is certainly in a better position.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: General Election Polls are meaningless right n (none / 0)

Florida is not the end all be all of the general election, especially for Obama. Things could change between now and then as has been repeatedly pointed out, but if you are determined to examine the GE matchups as they are today then you must conclude that Obama has other states that make up for a FL loss.


by tessellated on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no democrat can win florida right now... (none / 0)

and we won't really try anyway.  but, for historical purposes, we can say that buddy mckay (d) was up by 18 points in 1988 and up by 15 points in 1998 at this time in the election cycle.  he won neither of those races.  davis was up by almost 30 points in april 2006, and you'll see that he's not our governor, either.  but, hey!, you didn't really care about accuracy, did you?  it's just a cute talking point that allows you to feel better about the candidate you support (despite the horrible state of the florida democratic party that is -- again -- embarrassed by the national attention)...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:04:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no democrat can win florida right now... (none / 0)

God I hope they primary Debbie Wasserman-Schultz next time around.  That lady needs to go.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no democrat can win florida right now... (none / 0)

She will not lose in Fl, but Obama will if the delegates are not seated.


"The Bumble Bee flies because it thinks it can."
by LadyEagle on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 0)

I'm talking about Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.  Do you know something I don't?  Because she doesn't seem like that strong of a candidate after not helping other Democrats get elected in Florida.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

yep its what i thought here is you using the polls yourself

Because I believe we will be in a better position to defeat McCain if HRC is the nominee than we will be even if everyone "gets on board" with Barack Obama now.

You can read the polls if you like.  Obama loses PA by 4, MI by 4, OH by 6, and FL by 11 to McCain right now.  I don't see how that can change, either.

you can't use the polls when they are helpful then 5 minutes later say the polls are nigh meaningless


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

If you'd read my response, and maybe tone down the hostility a touch, I'd be greatly appreciative :-).


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Oh, and one more point: if these were the numbers for the remaining contests in the primary, then I would agree it was looking pretty bad for HRC.  But they're not, they're simply national polls, which have no bearing at all on the nomination process.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

The national numbers do have a bearing on the super delegates, which, as we often love to point out to each other, are going to decide this (whether they go with the pledged delegate leader or otherwise).


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

It better be a much much bigger win then Ohio, picking up only 9 delegates makes the path to the nomination harder for her, she needs 30.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 2)

So Howard Fineman thinks Pennsylvanians are going to perform political euthanasia on Clinton?

I think all that hair dye has seeped into his brain.


by cc on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:03:08 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

he's as dumb as his fellow Newsweek prognosticator, Kos, who said this week Obama can win Texas in the fall lol.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

There is plenty of evidence that Obama could be competitive in Texas- I personally don't think he will win it but if he can make McCain fight for those EV's thats a good thing AND it is something Clinton cannot effectively do.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

what evidence would that be?  i think McCain has a better shot in California than Obama does in Texas and that's a long long long shot.


by BlueDoggyDogg on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

The only scenario in which California is in play is if Clinton is the nominee.  The polls show clearly that Obama is stronger in CA against McCain, on the basis of a much stronger showing among independents.  

I think she would win CA at the end of the day, but she'll have to campaign here to make sure.  Obama, not so much.

See http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/survey/ S_308MBS.pdf

and http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c ontent/politics/election_20082/2008_pres idential_election/california/election_20 08_california_presidential_election


by OaktownDad on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Thanks for posting links to those polls.  It's so tiring to see so many posts making statements that go against all polling and conventional wisdom.  Yeah, Obama probably will lose Texas and Clinton probably will lose California, but to say that Obama has no chance in Texas or that McCain has no chance against Hillary in California is a little crazy.

Damn it, now I've just repeated what you said.  Oh well, I liked it.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

Oops, clearly meant Clinton will probably WIN California.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Obama has a shot at Texas for the same reason that McCain does not have a shot at California.  Immigration. It is a bigger issue than most people realize right now.  The Republican line on immigration is alienating a lot of swing voters.  McCain realizes it, but he hasn't been able to do much about it within the Republican party.


by Onward Virginia Democrats on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

No, I canvassed a strong Barack suppporter who's disillusioned that Barack hasn't found a way to close the deal, and he's now a Hillary supporter.  This is such bull.

The MEDIA have been piling on Hillary for months and demanding she drop pout.

This crap is just more of the same.

The REASON why Obama is "creeping up in the polls" is very plain and simple:  MOney talks, and Campaign Ads work.

Obama's team has been absolutely flooding every media market in PA with Pro-Obama propaganda for ten days now, making strategic, Shock and Awe moves with the HUGE pile of cash he's received from the Bamabots.  Obama knows if he loses PA big, he's going to lose the momentum that's carried him so far, and maybe the cash slows down.

He has also been enjoying the flood of anti-Hillary hysteria from the MSM, and using the advantage he's gained from every talk show, every pundit, every stupid talking head who passes on bogus "Hillary's in trouble because she does not tell the truth" talking points.

There's no mystery to it.  

But look for the polls to move back again when Hillary's team, which has been holding its fire until this week, makes its countermoves.

I'm gonna send her another couple hundred this weekend.


by dembluestates on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:05:07 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

How have the media been "piling on" Hillary?  She's getting enormously positive press from CNN and Fox News...  In fact, the CNN's Anderson Cooper was talking to Candy Crowly saying, "Clinton supporters are saying that we want Hillary to drop out... Why would we want that?  this extended primary season has been gold for us in the media!  We want it to continue as long as possible!"  He said it right on the air!

As for talk shows, Hillary's been doing the circuit... Leno, Letterman, SNL, Daily Show, etc. all receiving gushing praise the whole time...

I don't see where your beef is... Ever since a week before Ohio, the media as a whole has been gushing over Hlllary, wanting her to keep this thing going as long as possible...  Very few "pundits" even discuss how far behind she is in delegates, making it sound like she has at least a 50/50 chance of winning, when even her own campaign concedes that it is less than 10%....

Hillary should not be the one complaining about the media... She's got plenty of media outlets working in her favor.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

What shows are you looking at?  For the last two weeks, it's been "Hillary, just give it up!" 24/7, and not just from the Obama surrogates and Bamabots, but from columnists and Op-Eds in every major newspaper, cable news talking heads from Olbermann to O'Reilly, even from former Clinton honchos who;ve decided to work the other side of thee streets.

If you think Hillary has the media even remotely on her side, you must be an Obama supporter.


by dembluestates on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

"But look for the polls to move back again when Hillary's team, which has been holding its fire until this week, makes its countermoves."

If she has a countermove, she better unleash it pretty soon.  She has two rough fights right now - the press is going to question the validity of anything she says and her influential husband is contradicting a lot of her stances - which means she needs something.  If your plan hinges on blowout wins and 70+% of superdelegates rallying to you, you  can't afford many bad news days.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

You ask, we answer:

Clinton Airs 5 New Ads in Pa.

By JIM KUHNHENN - 1 day ago

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democratic Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is targeting Pennsylvania media markets with five new television ads that deliver specific messages to different regional and ethnic audiences.

Her campaign began airing the ads Tuesday, three in the expensive Philadelphia market where polls show rival Sen. Barack Obama has been gaining support.

The ads come as Obama has been outspending Clinton in Pennsylvania, with the state's April 22 primary only two weeks away. As of Sunday, Obama had spent $3.6 million in the state to Clinton's $1.3 million, according to data compiled by TNS Media Intelligence/Campaign Media Analysis Group.

Obama updated his ad mix in the state as well. A new ad features some of the women in his life -- his half sister, his grandmother and his wife -- in what is obvious outreach to women voters who form a core of Clinton's support.

As the ads went up, the Clinton campaign also issued a fundraising appeal to counter Obama's spending advantage in the state.


by dembluestates on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:49:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Survey USA poll dead on (none / 0)

I think PA will break 60-40 for Clinton on primary day.

I don't think I would sacrifice my vote for someone I believed in on the basis that I wanted the primary  "to be over."

Seems a little selfish if you ask me.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:06:14 PM EST

Re: Survey USA poll dead on (none / 0)

Guess I have to bring my old sig line back... I thought you had left us.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Survey USA poll dead on (1.00 / 1)

So not only are you anti-Hillary but you're also anti-God: how conservative of you.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Survey USA poll dead on (none / 0)

How is "anti-God" a conservative position?


by tessellated on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:48:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Survey USA poll dead on (none / 0)

See first of all I am not anti-Hillary I am Pro- Obama.

As I have often discussed I love Hillary as a person and as a Senator. I just prefer the idea of an Obama  Presidency.

As to your other accusation, I wouldn't waste time discussing my spiritual views with someone like yourself.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:04:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't think Clinton doesn't want it over? (none / 0)

She wanted it over on Super Tuesday.  Scratch that, she wanted it over in Iowa.  She wanted to wrap up this as early as possible.  No candidate enters into the race for the nomination saying to themselves, "I hope I win by taking this all the way to the convention"!  That would be just plain tomfoolery!


by nrioq on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 2)

PPP being down 3 seems more right.  Obama up 2 never seemed to make sense.

My gut feeling is that Clinton wins by 5-8, gets good press for a day or two, and then people notice that it doesn't look good in the big picture.

Who knows though, something could still come up.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:07:10 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Hard to imagine what good press Hillary would get from an 8 point win when she was leading by like 20 a couple weeks ago and still faces such a huge deficit*.  I guess I would have thought the same thing after she barely won in Texas when she was suppose to trounce him there.  I don't necessarily think it's bad for the race to go on, as long as both candidates continue this recent trend of being much more positive than they were after Ohio and Texas.

*To those who would say it's not huge, go fool with the delegate calculator.  It isn't perfect, but it does illustrate the very steep climb she has in front of her.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

PA is a big test for Obama, let's see if the white vote keeps shrinking for him like I think it will.  and these lowered expectations can only help Hillary when she blows him out!


by BlueDoggyDogg on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:12:57 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

let's see if the white vote keeps shrinking for him like I think it will.

Sooooo embarrassing for Democrats that we have to use phrases like "the white vote"

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I wish that we as a party were better than that.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

national numbers don't really matter anymore. Clinton has a decent remaining schedule on her plate which should outperform the national polling numbers (Appalachia loves her dearly).
!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:17:39 PM EST

National numbers still matter (none / 0)

These numbers can influence the actions of Superdelegates.  If one candidate is up 10, 15, 20 points on the other, Superdelegates are less likely to back the one that is down.


by nrioq on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National numbers still matter (none / 0)

they could but I think you're reading too much into these polls. Superdelegates will vote in line with the pledged delegates when all the dust has settled. National polls on just these two candidates are too erratic to take into consideration when casting a superdelegate vote.
!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National numbers still matter (none / 0)

Well in that case, it certainly appears as though Obama is the nominee?  I'm kind of a broken record here, but check out any article about who has the (almost completely) insurmountable pledged delegate lead or play around with a delegate calculator.  If the supers indeed go with the pledged, which certainly seems likely unless Obama has an epic boy/dead girl event, then he sure does appear to be sitting pretty.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: National numbers still matter (none / 0)

yup. He's sitting mighty pretty right now. and while i'm 90% sure Obama is our nominee, I'm not gonna bet on it. Weird things happen in politics. I would have never come close to predicting anything under a 50 pledged delegate win for Clinton on that night.
!
by alex100 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Just a quick note:

The SurveyUSA seems to have picked up Clinton movement, but the PPP poll doesn't seem to indicate anything, as both of the polls are within the margin of error, which means there's no statistical significance between the two polls.


by leshrac55 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:20:43 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

The "movement" you talk about in SUSA could be statistical noise.

Their last poll was 52-39.  The current one is 56-38.  That's all within the MOE and may not reflect any movement whatsoever.

Same with Quinnipiac's change from +9 to +6.  It is a fallacy to suggest there is movement within a poll when it falls between the MOE.


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Hmm, I wasn't sure what the margin of error was on the SurveyUSA poll... For some reason I thought it was closer in the last one, but I suppose not.  You are right, there's no real difference in any of these polls.


by leshrac55 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:12:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

I'm surprised that no one is quoting the most recent Survey USA poll which defied everyone else and has Clinton up by 18% in PA...

I don't know what to make of that...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:21:17 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

SUSA pushed leaners to choose a candidate, thus they have a much smaller number of undecided voters.

In some polls, the undecided is 10-12 points.  In SUSA's it was 6 I believe.

The thing to keep in mind is that SUSA has always had it at double-digits for her and has never had Obama over 40%.  In that sense, they are consistent.  


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

An Edwards endorsement would bring great press coverage and help her win PA by a big margin.  I think he will endorse her before April 22nd.   Just a feeling i have.


by karajan72 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:22:16 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

Why would he do this?

The most obvious answer is Healthcare but I honestly think he would have to believe it would seal the deal for her otherwise he wouldn't get involved. Why risk pissing off the potential nominee at this point?

I think if he endorses it will be after PA and only if she wins by a healthy margin on her own.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:44:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

I highly doubt Edwards gets involved.

The writing is on the wall for Clinton, and the only thing Edwards can do is find himself on the losing side if he backs her. Not to mention he starts off on the wrong foot with the party's nominee.

Also, while I know he had passionate supporters, Edwards' strength seems to come from perception, not reality. The guy didn't win a single state and I don't know what support he brings to Clinton aside from a series of news stories entitled, "Why is Edwards doing this?"


Voting for John McCain is not God bless America.
by SFValues on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I would be extremely surprised if Edwards endorsed anyone, but especially Clinton.  It makes no sense for him.  


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 3)

Today's Gallup tracking poll is back to a 10 point Obama lead: http://www.gallup.com/poll/106369/Gallup -Daily-Obama-Leads-Clinton-Points.aspx


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:33:56 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

The national polls probably do reflect a feeling that it needs to come to an end, because it's polling people from 42 states that have already voted.

But they may also reflect something else: I think the "insurmountable" narrative, speedballed into the bloodstream by the Nagourney Times piece and the Politico piece, then fomented by Dodd, Leahy, Pelosi, et al., has taken solid root.


by along on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:41:21 PM EST

Will you add today's Gallup, Todd? (none / 0)

Obama up 10, 51-41.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:44:55 PM EST

100% of the people I know are sick of this (2.00 / 1)

I can't think of anyone I know who wants to hear anymore about the Democratic nomination.  Most of us want it over one way or the other.


by nrioq on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 02:46:04 PM EST

other PA polls (2.00 / 1)

Todd,

I'm curious as to why you didn't post Rasmussen's PA poll yesterday showing Clinton 48 and Obama 43. Also, Strategic Vision today showing Clinton 47 Obama 42. Both polls show the race within 5 pts.

Obama has now held a statistically significant lead in both Gallup and Rasmussen daily tracking for several days. I think there is some definite movement his way. My brother was listening to a radio show the other day in Philadelphia. A lot of callers seemed to be upset over the amount of money the Clinton's made. I find it bizarre that would be an issue, but it seemed to be.

That said, I don't expect Obama to win PA. The fundamentals are against him. But it won't be a Clinton blowout either. She will not make up enough of her delegate deficieny to make a difference. Once he wins NC by a substantial margin, I expect a lot of superdelegates to get off the fence.


by jadegirl on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:01:25 PM EST

Re: other PA polls (2.00 / 1)

NC is my prediction too.  I have a bet with a coworker (of the high stakes of an entire penny) that Clinton drops out within a week of the NC primary.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: other PA polls (none / 0)

I think that the anger comes from the fact that Hillary has been promoting herself as the democratic candidate of the working class.  To hear that she and Bill are so obscenely wealthy probably caused any support she'd gained exclusively on that argument to weaken.  I'm not saying Obama is that much different (or that Hillary wouldn't be a great advocate for the worker), but he wasn't trying to distinguish his candidacy on that point the way Hillary was.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: other PA polls (none / 0)

"Obscenely wealthy"??

When Hill and Bill left the White House, he was disbarred in Arkansas and they were almost 6 million in debt from all those frivolous, vindictive civil personal lawsuits brought against Bill by the paid agents of the Scaife family and "Arkansas Project" right-wing conspirators.

They've EARNED 109M over 10 years, most of it from book money, and they paid taxes or donated half of it.

5M a year, average.  I can show you McDonald's franchise owners and titty doctors who rake in the same amount or more a year.

But because it's the Clintons, it's "obscene".

Get a life, wonderboy.


by dembluestates on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:42:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (2.00 / 1)

OK, let's take a comprehensive look at all the recent polls from PA going back in time.

PPP (D): Clinton +3
Rasmussen: Clinton +5
SurveyUSA: Clinton +18
ARG: Tied
Strategic Vision (R): Clinton +5
Quinnipiac: Clinton +6
InsiderAdvantage: Clinton +3
PPP (D): Obama +2
Rasmussen: Clinton +5

Other than the SUSA numbers and the older PPP poll, they're all in the range of Clinton +0 to Clinton +6. That's the sort of random statistical variation you'd expect from polling. SurveyUSA is clearly an outlier (note that it was a weekend poll, which tend to be less reliable.) They've got a good record, but like EVERY polling firm, they will sometimes produce outliers, and they've even had a few stinkers this season.

The PPP poll does not, by itself, indicate movement in Clinton's direction. They've actually got a good record also this season, but I think everyone can agree that their last poll showing Obama up by 2 was an outlier. The shift of 5 points in Clinton's direction in that particular poll is actually just an example of regression toward the mean. There's a good chance that you'll see something similar the next time SurveyUSA polls the race - if they get, say, +8 for Clinton next time, it probably doesn't represent movement toward Obama.

Rasmussen shows no change in the PA race since their last poll; I'd wager the race in PA has not moved significantly during that time span.


by fwiffo2 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:08:11 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Oh I hadn't realized that SurveyUSA poll was a weekender.  Those tend to really oversample the elderly (as difficult as that is in an election in the US), I hear.


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

one factor no one has considered is that maybe, just maybe, obama bowling a 37 made him seem more human and and is bringing to him?  


"Katie, i'd like to use one of my lifelines, i'd like to phone a friend." "governor Palin"
by Doug Tuttle on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:16:45 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Today's Gallup has it at 51%-41%.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:22:54 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I think people want it over with.

It should send a message to the Democratic party to shorten the primary season in the future and bunch up the primaries in a regional format spread over maybe 2-3 months.  People do not have attention spans lasting from January to June.


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:59:51 PM EST

indeed... (none / 0)

i find that a lot on the streets of pennsylvania...


"This is the time for resolve and steady leadership" -- Barack Obama
by bored now on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Can you imagine what this would be like if we had both candidates campaigning positively about their own credentials and emphasizing their differences with McCain instead of each other?  I'd like to see that primary go from January to June (and I'm also hoping that we're slowly moving toward that and away from all the dem on dem slander).


John McCain is surprisingly bad for this country
by minnesotaryan on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I do not think it's been especially negative.  The media has played up the supposed negativity and trumped up charges of racism and sexism that were not there, but the candidates have not been terribly negative in my opinion.  

Though, I wouldn't say it's been especially positive either :-)


by reggie44pride on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Todd, you take minor movement in two, but not all, of the PA polls are evidence that "voters aren't near ready for this to be over."

Think about (1) the conflicting results of the many PA polls recently (O+2, even, C+5, C+18), (2) the margin of error for the polls, (3) the real concerns about how the polling samples are selected, and (4) the general noise level. And all of this is in a 6 week campaign with 2 weeks to go.

I really think going back to chicken innards is more appropriate right now.


by anoregonreader on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:26:05 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

I made a chart of likability ratings (inspired by So many bubbles, so little time) and noted this last week. From the perspective of technical analysis of the stock market (reading the psychology of daily charts to predict trends), Obama was on the verge of breaking out of his slump. He went from a straight downward trajectory to hitting close to where he was before the Wright stuff hit.


He's still only on the verge of breaking out, and he needs to beat that wall he keeps hitting, but if he does, he's going to have a great deal of momentum that will be very hard to stop.

Which is good, because McCain's chart is already skyrocketing (though tapering off as Obama is rising).


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:27:38 PM EST

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Oops, I mean SevenStrings. That was the poster.


"Tell me about your work ethic." "Well, I don't think ethnics do no work. I mean, that's they problem, really." "Overt racial prejudice. Impressive."
by vcalzone on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Primary Fatigue Effect (none / 0)

Primary Fatigue?  
Pity the poor American Voter IN 2008.
 Just too tired to vote or even think about it?
Soooooo demanding to check out policy positions, evaluate the candidates, make decisions, get to the polls at designated times.
Who would want to take on that demanding task.
YOU WOULD!
You are Americans so get with it.
Vote for one of the imperfect human beings who is willing to lead our country for 4 years.
You will stand a line of American voters who, over 200 years, took the time to vote for leaders that have laid in place YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE.
In America, your vote is your voice.
Now use it.
by CLK on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:32:43 PM EST


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