Racism Easier To Overcome Than Sexism

Nicholas Kristof in todays' NYT  writes in study after study, and from expert after expert:

We can make categorization by race go away, but we could never make gender categorization go away.

He goes on to explain that John Tooby, a scholar at the University of California at Santa Barbara ran an experiment in which researchers put blacks and whites in sports jerseys as if they belonged to two basketball teams. People looking at the photos logged the players in their memories more by team than by race, recalling a player's jersey color but not necessarily his or her race.

But only very rarely did people forget whether a player was male or female.

Amazing information. And certainly pertinent to the contest between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to be the Democratic party's nominee for President. But Kristof, an often shrill manipulator of public opinion, did not lead with that information,

Rather he declares he is a racist because by .013 degrees of a second, he shot armed blacks more quickly than armed whites in a University of chicago online psych test.

So even when sexism is shown to be more durable and more salient than race, it will not be reported accurately

The true lead of Kristoff's piece is this: racism may be easier to override than sexism. As an example he says:

One experiment found it was easy for whites to admire African-american doctors; they just mentally categorized them as 'doctors' rather than as 'blacks.'

Here are some of the experts Kristoff consulted and their findings:

Alice Eagly, a professor of psychology at Northewestern University says,

In general, gender trumps race...Race may be easier to overcome.

And Kristoff writes:

The challenge for women competing in politics or business is less misogyny than unconscious sexism: Americans don't hate women, but they do frequently stereotype them as warm and friendly, creating a mismatch with the sterotype we hold of leaders as tough and strong. So the voters (women as well as men, though a bit less so) may feel that a female candidate is not the right person for the job because of biases they're not even aware of.

So here we have the first real data that all those people who characterize Clinton as cold and calculating are actually buying into sexist sterotypes. Some of us have been saying this for quite awhile. It is nice to hear Kristoff say it. He even says,

Women face a related challenge" those viewed as tough and strong are also typically perveived as cold and unfemininine. Many experiments have found that women have trouble being perceived as both nice and competent.

Joshua Correll, a psychologist at the University of Chicago declares:

Clinton runs the risk of being seen as particularly cold, particularly uncaring, because she doesn't fit the mold. It probably is something a man doesn't deal with.

Kristoff ends on a hopeful note.

When research subjects were asked to think of a strong woman they showed less implicit bias about men and women. And students exposed to a large number of female professors also experienced a reduction in gender stereotypes.

And yet Kristoff did not lead his story with gender, he led with race. And in this he mirrors the entire mainstram media storyline for the Presidential contest. Glenn Greenwald at Salon on Saturday had a wonderful expose of the media bias at Salon today. Go and see.

/opinion/greenwald/2008/04/05/media/index.html

None of this is news to Clinton supporters, but when Obama supporters say over and over that they 'don't get it about sexism.' Maybe Kristoff both by the content of this story and the way he chose to introduce it will bring the point home: sexism not racism is the biggest bully in this contest and it is distorting Clinton's image to a profund degree.



Display:


Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 3)

The interesting thing is that about 57-58% of Democratic primary voters are women. And maybe about 16-18% are African American.

Maybe 8% are black men, while about 42% are white women.

For whatever that's worth...


by Prop Joe on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:16:43 PM EST

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 4)

Yes. that is important. And I think women are struggling mightly with the sterotypes. But they are ingrained in all of us.


by linfar on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 1)

Did you know that WHITE WOMEN have benefited the most from Affirmative Action? Something for you to think about.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 0)

Many people do not know that unfortunately. People attempt to reduce systemic discrimination to bad words but statistically it's clear who suffers most under the continuing yoke of oppression.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How's that? (2.00 / 2)

Are women being paid as much as men now? Are women's educational opportunities as good as men's? Are working women getting the same chances to succeed that men are? So tell me, how are women "benefitting so much" from affirmative action?


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How's that? (2.00 / 1)

White women are doing quite well. Far better than the black person. PERIOD. The poorest WHITE WOMAN has a better chance of "making it" in America than the poorest black man or woman.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

proof please (2.00 / 2)


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (2.00 / 1)

All statistics show this to be true. Which area of our country would you like to examine first? Wages? Education? The CJS?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (2.00 / 9)

Actually, the wage gap by gender and by race is remarkably similar. Black men earn 72.1 percent of what white men do, and white women earn 73.2 percent of what white men do.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.h tml

To me this point up just how entrenched sexism is, because white girls grow up with the same levels of affluence, and therefore with generally the same educational opportunities, as white boys. Blacks, otoh, tend to lag behind in educational opportunities because of class-based disparities in educational funding, which tend to keep poor people of every color at a disadvantage. (I've long been fascinated by the fact that so many Americans still still view this country as "The Land of Opportunity" when class mobility, as measured by the ability to move out of one's household income quintile, is much lower here than in other Western economies.)

In any case, even with comparitive equity re educational opportunities, women are still lagging well behind men. Hispanics, particularly Mexican-Americans, have it even worse, and Hispanic women have it worst of all.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

You can't use minority women stats as you can't separate out race from the equation.

But as far as the numbers when you compare white women and African-American men the fact remains that white women earn more. Now it would be interesting to break it down even further and examine college educated white women and college educated African-American men on down.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

Ceck my link place before you make an untrue accusation.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

Que?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:16:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

Ceck = Check

(I was on my way out the door, and I'm a terrible typist. Sorry.)

In any case, if you click my link above you'll see that the the data distinguish between the median wages of white women and those of Black and Hispanic women.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

Oh I understand. The census data does as well. What you see from the census data is that a massive amount of white women work in fields (i.e. education) where the wages are not high though the educational credentials necessary to enter the field are. So you've got white women who are better educated than white men for the most part (more Master's degrees for example) but are in fields that don't pay well dragging down the average. You can actually look across surveys to determine break it down.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

I personally prefer to look at "median" incomes rather than "average" incomes because statistics on incomes tend to be skewed by the upper 1% of wage earners, giving a false picture of what we think of when we envision the "average person" in some group.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

Either way white women have a higher income according to the numbers here.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

Of course, teaching, as a profession, probably wouldn't be so poorly paid if there weren't so many women teachers. Certain industries have always been horribly paid because at one time they were the only acceptable careers for working women. And yes, females are socialized to be more nurturing than men, which is why they still predominate in "helping" professions such as teaching and nursing. My question to you is this: Do you think that teachers should be as poorly paid as they are?


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (2.00 / 1)

Right, the truth is, from US government statistics  
economically this is how it stacks up if you include all job sectors:

Asian American and White Men- statistically even
African American Men
Asian American Women and White Women-statistically even
Hispanic American Men
African American Women
Hispanic American Women

So the truth is actually Asian American Men and African American Men have benefited the most from Affirmative Action.

It shows up in cultural attitudes as well. Look at how people view journalists. African American and Asian American male journalists are viewed as professionals, the same as white male journalists.  But women journalists of ANY race- yes, including white, are belittled, treated as sexual objects, and their qualifications as professional journalists are constantly questioned. Even ones with long professional careers like Helen Thomas, are treated with far less respect than Walter Conkrite or Ed Bradley.

The same thing happens all over, no matter what sector you look at- politics, the arts, education, even in court cases. Rape victims- a male victim is never questioned on whether it "really happened that way" or did he "do something to provoke it". A female victim always is, no matter what her age is: from 3-93. Even videotape proof of rape of female victims has been discounted in court cases.

Our culture is revolted nowadays by the repulsive racial stereotypes that were all over the culture before the 1960's, but don't blink an eye at women of any race being treated as sexual objects all over our culture. They are incapable of seeing it's the same dehumanizing message, the same as many white people before the 1960's could not see those images we all now reject as repulsive as dehumanizing.


by K1966 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: proof please (none / 0)

White women are above African-American men. I've got the numbers right here.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Falacious argument (none / 0)

Whether Black Men or White Women have higher median incomes is not an indication of who benefits more from Affirmative Action.  What matters is how affirmative action helps advance a persons situation.

You need to look at how many people out of all women and African Americans take part in such programs and how much each of these two groups benefits from such programs.  That comparison is done by looking at similar populations who have not taken part in such programs and seeing how much better people fair when they do take part in such programs.  That is how you analyze who benefits the most from the programs.  


by nrioq on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Disparities among those with college degrees (none / 0)

Now it would be interesting to break it down even further and examine college educated white women and college educated African-American men on down.

You raised an interesting question. I looked for the answer to that, and while I don't have the most recent statistics, an article from USA Today from 2005, came as a shock even to me:

Census: College-educated white women earning less

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Black and Asian women with bachelor's degrees earn slightly more than similarly educated white women, and white men with four-year degrees make more than anyone else.

A white woman with a bachelor's degree typically earned nearly $37,800 in 2003, compared with nearly $43,700 for a college-educated Asian woman and $41,100 for a college-educated black woman, according to data being released Monday by the Census Bureau. Hispanic women took home slightly less at $37,600 a year.

...

Employers in some fields may give extra financial incentives to young black women, who graduate from college at higher rates than young black men, said Roderick Harrison, a researcher at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a think tank that studies minority issues.

...

A white male with a college diploma earns far more than any similarly educated man or woman -- in excess of $66,000 a year, according to the Census Bureau. Among men with bachelor's degrees, Asians earned more than $52,000 a year, Hispanics earned $49,000 and blacks earned more than $45,000.

Workplace discrimination and the continuing difficulties of minorities to get into higher-paying management positions could help explain the disparities among men, experts say.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bythenumber s/2005-03-28-income-education_x.htm

Oh, but white women have it so bloody easy in this country. Give me a break!


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disparities among those with college degrees (none / 0)

Here are actual numbers. They appear to show that white women do have it easier.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disparities among those with college degrees (none / 0)

"Easier" is a touchy word.  I do not think we should be comparing who has it "easier" even though it appears White Women on average make more than Black Men.  The experience of Race and Gender are very different.  Why are we comparing them again?


by nrioq on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:19:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disparities among those with college degrees (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for the link. Didn't see that one.

But from the 2000 census it showed that African American men with an associates degree earned more on average than white women with a bachelor's degree. Against white men it was an even greater wage gap, White men who had finished their education with a high school diploma earned more than white women with a bachelors degree.

In 2000 in the professional field:
Black men earned 78 cents to a white man's 1 dollar
White women earned 66 cents to a white man's 1 dollar
Hispanic men earned 62 cents to a white man's 1 dollar
Black women earned 57 cents to a white man's 1 dollar
Hispanic women earned 48 cents to a white man's 1 dollar


by K1966 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:27:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disparities among those with college degrees (none / 0)

Here are recent stats. You'll notice that white women earn more than African-American men.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disparities among those with college degrees (none / 0)

Show us your statistics finding that Blacks with B.A.s earn less than white women with B.A.s do. I couldn't find that anywhere in that collection of links you cited.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:44:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How's that? (2.00 / 0)

White women earn more than African-American men.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not true (2.00 / 2)

Just not true.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not true (none / 0)

White women with less training earn more than black women with equal or greater training.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not true (none / 0)

We seem to only be talking about earning power here, what about all the other issues that affect gender?  Comparing white women to black women is not what this diary was about (although correct me if I'm wrong), so those statistics are irrelevant in this instance.  We can analyze the treatment of women vs men and more specifically, if you want to use this primary campaign as a reference point, then I would say that gender is much more of a hindrance than race. Men of any color would most likely be taken more seriously as a presidential candidate than a woman of any color, if I take into account many of my conversations with men about this issue. This, of course, is strictly my own observation. :) Statistically, there are more women than men who vote, and yet, there has never been a female president ...go figure :)  Look how many other countries have had the pleasure of having a female leader ...
http://www.womenworldleaders.org/members
(there are a few missing on that list)
Yes She can! Go Hillary!
by Cassyma on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not true (none / 0)

Look at my first comment, I talked about how African American and Asian American male journalists are treated with the same respect white male journalists are, but women of any race are not- their professionalism is questioned, they are treated as sex objects, etc... just because they are female. And this dehumanizing belittlement happens all over our culture. Women and girls are treated as sexual objects, male possessions, etc... They are always treated as being to blame by the media and the courts and our culture in general when they are raped, not matter their age or race. Male rape victims are never treated as being to blame by our culture and the courts when they are raped, they are always believed.


by K1966 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm. (none / 0)

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, women who work full-time earn 77 cents for every dollar earned by men.1 African American women earn 69 cents and Latinas earn 57 cents for every dollar paid to white male workers. Men of color also experience wage discrimination. African American men earn 73 cents and Latinos earn only 66 cents for every dollar paid to their white male counterparts.2"

http://www.stateaction.org/issues/issue. cfm/issue/EqualPay.xml


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey I'll say this (none / 0)

I can't speak to pay as I have been a student for the past 18+ years. But I think I have a voice on education due to that.

In college the student body was over 55% female and almost all of my classes (I was a bio major) were over 50% female with these exceptions: entomolgy which had 11 people, my math classes (which were skewed by the Computer Science majors in my year only one was female), and one of my honors classes which had 12 people.

Of course I am from a fairly egalitarian state (MN) so that might throw my views off.

I also noticed two of my profs in college say sexist things while I never heard one say a racist thing.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:53:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey I'll say this (none / 0)

You're a student, Student Guy?

j/k


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 09:49:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes... (none / 0)

a medical one in fact.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How's that? (none / 0)

yes...  educational opportunities are better and as a result worse...

College admissions are so skewed toward women that men actually get in with lower test scores now.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 4)

Do you have more information about that? But I am not surprised, in my opinion black women are more discriminated against both as female and black. I think many of Hillary's black female supporters like Jacqueline Jackson, Jesse's wife, understand that. And I female AA voters have a very tough choice in the Clinton-Obama contest.


by linfar on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 1)

As  a black woman who cannot relate to white women, the choice was very clear--Obama.

I can never relate to white women and never will be able to when it comes to issues of fairness. White women have it far easier than any black man or woman.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you seem to have accepted a lot of (2.00 / 3)

angry rhetoric.  Prove to me that your myth of entitled white women has any basis in fact and I will take you seriously.

It is clear that this is still a racist country, I give you that.  But life is not fair and the AA community has to take some responsibility for the breakdown in the families and neighborhoods that black children grow up in, otherwise the problems will never be solved.  There is still a lot of overcoming to be done.  Affirmative action was meant to give people a chance, not a guarantee.

To separate women from other women is counter productive as it is to separate the struggles of white women and gay people when talking about who needs justice.  What if I took the opposite stance that I don't care about black women?  Do you really want to have that battle?  There are a hell of a lot more of us.  It doesn't make any sense to make us the enemy.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:04:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you seem to have accepted a lot of (2.00 / 1)

"But life is not fair and the AA community has to take some responsibility for the breakdown in the families and neighborhoods that black children grow up in, otherwise the problems will never be solved."

Should they take some responsibility for racially discriminatory laws? Or sentencing? Or the fact that police are more likely to arrest and charge them for things that whites will be let go on? Or the fact that they make less money? Or the fact that they live in segregated neighborhoods? Or that they attend bad schools? Or that employers won't hire them?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you seem to have accepted a lot of (none / 0)

Can't we all agree that society hates us in unique and special ways?

Sure, there's no reason to treat humans who provide incubation following fertilization as different when the only substantive difference -- incubation ability -- is used for a fraction of the entire life cycle.

Equally, there's no reason to treat humans who have a chemical mutation that results in different levels of light absorbtion so the eye regards them as having different "colors." It's truly does not effect any other aspect of human activity or ability.

Both are ridiculous, arbitrary, and unnecessary. Both are painful.

But to compare them in terms of "which is worse" is also ridiculous, arbirtrary and unneccessary. And kind of painful to witness.

Both are worse, because both prejudices are realized in different -- but undermining ways. Approaching these conflicts with a "which is worse" mentality -- instead of a "which can we best reform today" -- makes my medium-pigmented, wimpy-Y-chromosomed self get a headache.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 02:43:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reverend Wright.... (2.00 / 1)

agrees with you in reference to whites. He generalizes too and also assumes that all white people do better than blacks.

IMO, stereotypes are unhealthy for America.


by soyousay on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (none / 0)

Wow. That's so open minded of you.

With that attitude, I hope you don't expect anyone to ever attempt to relate to you. It sounds like you have a problem with people who don't look just like you, which is very sad and very prejudiced.


by LakersFan on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (none / 0)

I never said that, I said I could never relate to her on the issue of fairness and equality.  I am not being close minded I may not be that old but I have lived through quite a bit and am familiar with the history of this country and the facts.  

To deny that there is a difference between the views of white woman and black women is ignorant. Many whites do not understand the idea of white privilege which is why they are so blinded to understand that blacks face far more discrimination than white women.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (none / 0)

If we ever want to have a more equitable society and overcome our differences, we all have to start by finding things we have in common and working together towards shared goals. Perhaps if you recognize that women of all ethnicities are affected by many of the same issues, you'll find that there's a lot of people out there who do relate to you and want the same things you want.


by LakersFan on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (2.00 / 1)

you don't know who your real allies are.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (none / 0)

exactly


by LakersFan on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow.... (2.00 / 2)

I feel truly saddened and befuddled by your statement "I can never relate to white women....".   It makes me feel quite hopeless actually.


by Radiowalla on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:10:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow.... (2.00 / 1)

I had the same reaction.


by colebiancardi on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dem primary breakdown... (none / 0)

Very interesting observation. Do you know why? It's the paradoxical result of the Conservative Supreme Court declaring the racism is worse than sexism.

According to the United States Supreme Court, racism is so bad that "strict scrutiny" must be used to see whether an affirmative action is constitutional or not. Since racism is so bad and remedies requires to recognize race, remedies to racial discrimination are unconstitutional.

However, sexism isn't so bad so only "intermediate scrutiny" is required to see wither an affirmative action with respect to gender discrimination must be used. In this case, because sexism isn't really that bad, the government can use affirmative action to remedy gender discrimination.

Twisted logic is the reason why affirmative action has benefited women more than racial minorities.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bullshit (2.00 / 2)

that is not a fact it is at best an specious opinion.
My opinion is that Black women have benefited more than anyone else, all out of proportion to their numbers in society.  
There just happen to be a lot more women than other minorities (women are a functional minority in terms of power).  If more of them have benefited in terms of raw numbers, that seems fair to me  
DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit (none / 0)

That's incorrect. White women have benefited the most. No number support your conclusion. African-American women are near the bottom of the totem pole and white women are just below white men and are also above African-American men.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

show me some numbers (2.00 / 3)


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: show me some numbers (none / 0)

I already showed you some wage numbers. What numbers would  you like next?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: show me some numbers (none / 0)

HI,

I would like to see some numbers that look at salary as a function of education for women and men as well as race?

thanks

daivd


by giusd on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: show me some numbers (none / 0)

Great sets here.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: show me some numbers (none / 0)

ty


by giusd on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bullshit (1.00 / 2)

You are showing your ignorance once again.  


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:57:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's so easy to call people ignorant (2.00 / 2)

show me some proof....proof not opinions of pundits.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: it's so easy to call people ignorant (none / 0)

I am living and walking proof. The facts just support me and not you.

You are ignorant to think that white women have it just as hard as blacks. There are absolutely no facts out there to support your belief.

You blame the AA community. Sure, many of my fellow AA's share blame but you can't blame them for institutional racism that makes it 10 times as hard for us to make it in America than the white person.  


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

White women benefit the most? (none / 0)

Do you have a link for that comment or is it your observation?  That hasn't been the case in the situations where I have been involved with affirmative action.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: White women benefit the most? (none / 0)

It's unlikely that anecdotal evidence would suffice in a such a situation.

There are numerous studies showing white women benefiting the most from such policies.

There are a variety of ways to look for the information.

You could look at higher education specific to a state  for example.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

African American Women (none / 0)

Do not agree with this diarist.

They are voting for Obama in almost exactly the same margins if you look at exit polls.

I have no idea why the insults continue to be hurled toward Obama supporters at this level.

It is increasingly obvious that the bitterness of Clinton's losing runs very deep.  


by fladem on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 03:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: African American Women (none / 0)

Your comment is unclear.  

Derogatory names used for women apply to all women, whether they support Obama, Clinton, McCain or whoever.  Derogatory names used for women apply to all women, regardless of race.


by Athena2 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism Easier To Overcome Than Sexism (2.00 / 3)

"My discrimination is worse than your discrimination"


by mikeinsf on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:20:46 PM EST

not a competition mike (2.00 / 3)

but time after time I see proof that men would rather follow a man of any color than they would a woman.
I saw Jesse Jackson speak a few years ago.  One of the reason he remains an enduring hero if mine is that he understands that women are just as discriminated against.  When he named his organization the rainbow coalition he really meant it.  

DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not a competition mike (none / 0)

What sort of proof do you mean?


by interestedbystander on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not a competition mike (2.00 / 2)

Well, I guess it could have been predicted that a race between a black man and a white woman would lead to these debates about "who has it worse".

Both sides have good arguments. I haven't really ever seen a minority of a nation lead a nation (the only modern one I can think of right off is Fujimori of Peru), and I  can think of dozens of female leaders of all kinds of nations (Germany, UK, Pakistan, Israel, India, etc).  That said, yes, women are up against a lot in male-dominated political systems.  Some of the sexism is really ugly, and, yes, some women don't trust female candidates, and some men don't trust women at all.When you take that all into account, it's pretty remarkable both candidates have gotten this far.

For myself (a gay man who really doesn't expect to ever see a gay president and who could care less, really), I just go with who I like. If Hillary was the black man, and Obama was the white woman, my vote would be the same. This time I prefer Obama.  It's my sincere hope that in my life I'll see a woman president... President Sebelius sounds good... but in 2008 the woman running isn't someone I really want up there.  


by mikeinsf on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why are more women elected then? (2.00 / 1)

I think your argument is a bad one.  More women have been Governors, Senators, and Representatives.  

I'm not saying racism or sexism is worse, just that argument is contradicted by facts.

There have been 5 Black Senators ever.
There have been 35 Female Senators (one whom was Black) ever.

There have been 4 Black Governors ever.
There have been 29 Female Governors ever.
(There have been no Black Female Governors)

There have been 121 Black Representatives ever.
There have been 216 Female Representatives ever.
(Note: Black Representatives includes Black Females)

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_th e_United_States_Senate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Ame ricans_in_the_United_States_Congress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_th e_United_States_House_of_Representatives
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fem ale_state_governors_in_the_United_States


by nrioq on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism Easier To Overcome Than Sexism (2.00 / 3)

No, mike. But sexism is more enduring in some ways than racism and this prejudice is really distorting views of Clinton and the race.


by linfar on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:22:23 PM EST

The super rich also have a huge advantage running (none / 0)

for president. I don't hold that against Hillary.

Racism is less publicly acceptable then sexism I'll give you that but that doesn't make it any less insidious or any more of a reason to give a candidate an identity vote.


by DSloth on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The super rich also have a huge advantage runn (2.00 / 1)

No, you are wrong. Racism is very acceptable as it is institutional. People are complacent with racism in this country.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sigh (2.00 / 1)

when women vote for Hillary at 86 percent I will give you that it is an identity vote... but I won't have a problem with it anymore than I have a problem with the identity politics of African Americans voting for Obama.


DON'T COUNT THE VOTES, DON'T COUNT THE VOTES.... Obama and the Obamaettes... spring 2008
by TeresaINPennsylvania on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sigh (2.00 / 1)

African-Americans used to support Clinton. Even when Obama was in the race. We stopped because of their campaign tactics.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's earned the votes of black voters (none / 0)

just like he said he would. He's never said they owed him their allegiance.

Of course you're happy to embrace identity politics whenever it benefits you. How about instead of race or gender we divide the electorate along financial lines, you can have everyone whose net worth is more then 50 million and we'll take whats left.


by DSloth on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with you (2.00 / 3)

that sexism is much more ingrained into a persons thinking that racism is.

Racism may be more blatant and obvious, but sexism runs very deep and is shockingly widespread.  I've notice a male class mate of mine call a female counterpart a b** behind here back due to her attitude which isn't the level of anger that would be aimed at a male.  However this isn't that common from what I can see (again I will admit my view isn't prefect).

I think in my generation it (sexism) is less pervasive, or maybe I don't notice it as much (as I am a male), but I do see that over half of my medical school class is female, and that over half of most of my college classes (I was a bio major) were female.  Maybe being in the minority here allowed me a different perspective.

I also think racism is less prevasive, but maybe due to where I live (MN).

Just adding my $.02 in the hopes of promoting dialog.  

Good diary linfar.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:29:02 PM EST

Re: I agree with you (2.00 / 4)

I like dialoguing with you SG. I think so many of us on both sides of our candidate fences have been starved for some non-offensive discussion and interaction. Race has dominated the contest,in my opinion, and sexism hurled at Clinton--sometimes it seems from all sides--has been mind boggling. I don't know how she takes it. If Obama would say Randi Rhodes was wrong, or if he had said it was wrong to say Chelsea was being 'pimped out'; inotherwords if he would take a stand about the sexism I would like him better.


by linfar on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes I do wish he would condemn (2.00 / 1)

RR as well.  And I am glad that Shuster got suspend for that comment.  Both were quite unappropriate.

Discrimination based on any identity group is wrong (except for maybe those who are right wing conservatives, I jest; or do I?)

Obama himself has said things that could appear to some people as sexist like the whole periodically attacking when she feels down.  Do I think he was being sexist no, but he really shouldn't have worded his statement in that way, especially with the use of the word periodically which can make it seem like a hormonal thing. (sorry about the run on sentence, Writing has always been my weak spot in my academic career)

Then again Clinton herself has said things that could appear to some people as racist such as the whole MLK could get anything done with civil rights.  Do I think she was being racist, no, but she could have praised MLK more there to more it blatantly obvious.

The Clintons are not racists.  I read Bill Clinton's book (in its entirity) and he is not a racist.  I also rad Barack's books and I don't believe he is a sexist from hearing his life story.

All in all I try to ignore identity when it comes up and judge the person on their merits.

Also the reason I am willing to be so rational in discussing is that you humanized yourself to me in that you made it clear that you aren't just a screen name who spouts ideas, but a person with strongly held convictions and beliefs.  With a screen name it is too easy to look at what they say as being an all out attack.  With a person you have to consider their views.  Also you wanted to humanize me by finding out my background which I really appreciate.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But of course since racism is embedded in the (2.00 / 1)

structure of the US it can't be overcome as easily. The educational system is racist. The criminal justice system is racist. The electoral system is racist.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:29:22 PM EST

And sexism isn't? (2.00 / 2)


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some questions, (2.00 / 2)

the answers to which would assist, in determining the answer to your question.

Do politicians gerrymander based on gender? Is societal segregation based on gender? Which group is the primary beneficiary of affirmative action programs? Which group is the criminal justice system most biased against? When political operatives attempt to disenfranchise groups, which group is targeted?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some questions, (2.00 / 0)

Thank you!!!


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:47:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some questions, (1.50 / 2)

I doubt there will be an attempt to answer these questions because this post isn't much more than a white privilege post.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some questions, (none / 0)

Because they're silly questions. How would you gerrymander or segregate society based on gender? The integration of genders always averages out to something fairly close to 50-50. Which also means that misogyny affects about 50% of any minority population too.


by LakersFan on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:43:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And sexism isn't? (2.00 / 1)

How long did it take for women to be given the right to vote? Why haven't we STILL been able to pass the Equal Rights Amendment? How long did it take for it to be "acceptable" for women to be admitted into colleges & universities? Why is it still OK for employers to pay women less than men and deny women promotions more often than men?

I'm not denying that we still have racism problems in this nation. I'm just a little PO'ed that so many so-called "progressives" deny that we still have sexism problems in this nation.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And sexism isn't? (2.00 / 1)

People were still dying in the 60's to get African-Americans the right to vote and the right to full equality (which they do not have). As far as the other questions, I believe the questions above will assist us in answering  your questions.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:46:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And sexism isn't? (2.00 / 1)

The question isn't "is there still sexism"...?  Nor should it be.  The question that seems to be debated is which of the two "isms" is worse...  which is a stupid argument...

That sexism is still prevalent is both a sin and a shame...  that we feel the need to compare it to racism is worse.

As a white women, I have never been truly discriminated against...  It has never really happened.  I was raised upper middle class and just turned 40.  I have had advantages that tend to be afforded both my class and my race for most of my life.  Does that mean I have never encountered sexism...?  No... it only means that the sexism I encountered was not a hindrance, only an annoyance.

I have seen racism in action... overt racism and it was more than an annoyance to the people to whom it was aimed... it was a hindrance as well.  


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But of course since racism is embedded in the (2.00 / 1)

These institutions are also sexist to an alarming degree. Yes, more females are in college, but less graduate given their entrance numbers. A famous  professsor at Rutgers Univserity used to introduce his class by asking all the females in the class to cross their legs. He would then say, "the Gates of Hell at last are closed." How many  females do yu think did well in this guy's class? Or got internships or glowing recommendations? As for the criminal justice system--the fastest growing category is female. And think of all the child abusers, domestic abusers, etc. who never see jail at all. And lets talk about rap. Can't we look at both problems because both exist and both are impacting the contest.  


by linfar on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But of course since racism is embedded in the (none / 0)

You're talking about college? You'll need to start way before that.

Your comment about the CJS ignores race. Please separate white women and look at the statistics.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL (2.00 / 2)

Oh this was a good one. Where to start...

1) If being black is soooo much easier than being a woman, why do black  men get stopped for driving nice cars?

2)If being black is sooo much easier than being a female, why are there more woman in law school than blacks?

3) If being black is sooo much easier, why aren't there more black doctors?

4) If being black is soooo much easier than being a WHITE WOMAN why do blacks have their resumes thrown in the trash twice as many as white WOMEN?

5) If being black is sooo much easier than being a  WHITE WOMAN why aren't we on our third black president?

6) If being black is soooo much easier than being a WHITE WOMAN why aren't there many more BLACK CEOS.

7) If being black is soooo much easier than being a WHITE WOMAN why is it that blacks have not really had the rights to vote until the late 1960s?

Please explain this to me and Kristof is a white elitist hack who doesn't give a damn about blacks.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:34:02 PM EST

Hmmm. (2.00 / 2)

I would strongly urge you to consider that there is no such thing as a worse ism. It serves noone to try and get into that kind of dialogue. I don't think the diarist was trying to say that sexism is a worse ill than racism; I think she was trying to show how sexism has hurt Clinton and how, quite possibly, it has been (to use her term) the bigger of the bullies in this campaign. I would also urge you when you are making definintive declarations that you provide links to your assertions.


by Soitgoes on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:45:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (2.00 / 1)

I believe that the post is an attempt to say that racism isn't as bad as sexism.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (2.00 / 0)

I myself am a link. Also, the diarist is trying to prove that Sexism is worse than racism which it is NOT.

Anything else?


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So you say that you are the link. (2.00 / 2)

But when you are posting on an anonymous board and you're trying to have a good discussion, it behooves you to back up your claims with links to stats and/or other credible sources other than yourself. Otherwise, you tend to come off as just ranting. Which is okay if that's all you ultimately want to be doing.


by Soitgoes on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you say that you are the link. (none / 0)

Yes, I am the link and know that the statistics back me up. I have taken the time to do my own research unlike many on this blog and know what the facts are so instead of asking where the link is, do a google search yourself.


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you say that you are the link. (2.00 / 2)

I have. I have taught Women's Studies for many years and a strong component of that is teaching issues about and around women of color. By the way, you don't know what color I am and I am not the one who is making your assertions. You are. It is on you to provide proof, not me. Otherwise, you really can't be taken all that seriously that you are trying to have a productive rather than destructive conversation. Again, if ranting is all you want to do, hey go ahead. Just let me know if that is the context in which I should be reading you.


by Soitgoes on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you say that you are the link. (none / 0)

What stats would you like? That white women are more successful than African-American men? I'd be happy to supply statistics. I already showed white women earn more than African-American men in a comment up top. What else would you like to examine?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not asking you, I'm asking regina. (2.00 / 1)

I'm certain she is strong and smart enough to back up her claims without support from other posters. Or.....do you mean to speak for her?


by Soitgoes on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not asking you, I'm asking regina. (none / 0)

Didn't know that this was a closed conversation on an open forum.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not asking you, I'm asking regina. (none / 0)

I could cite hundreds of links but why do your work for you?

Sure I could cite links so that you could go AHA and then argue that my citations can't be trusted etc etc. Why bother at this point? I know that the facts support my comments and would expect that if there weren't facts to support my comments, someone would have argued otherwise.

I have yet to hear someone claim that there are no facts that don't support my comments.

Anything else?


by regina1983 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So....is that a yes (none / 0)

that I should be reading you as a ranter? You do appear to be hellbent on slamming others here and making assertions without citations. As I said before, if you're here to vent anger you appear to be doing well. If you're here to have anything else be remotely productive beyond that, it looks like you're failing miserably. Anything else?


by Soitgoes on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see the diarist as saying (none / 0)

that sexism is more hidden than racism.

For example in my experience if one of my friends says something racist (and not just against African-Americans but any racial group) they will get called out on it and usually apologize.
If they say a sexist thing usually nothing happens as far as an apology.

Racism is blatantly obvious in this country and is very wrong.  Sexism is more under the surface and is very wrong.  That is what I see in the diary, but maybe I am putting my own spin on it.

(Note I can not say I am representative of my identity group as I am on the upper scale of things for education and my friends are generally liberal, so this is coming form an atypical white male).


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I see the diarist as saying (2.00 / 1)

The claim that racism is easier to overcome than sexism is problematic. It assumes, apparently, that racism can be reduced to bad words when in fact it cannot as it's embedded in the structure of our nation.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on