I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today

I spoke with a friend of a friend about the election for a bit today at breakfast. She's middle-aged, well-off, liberal on most things and passionately anti-Republican. "They've run this country into a ditch." "I knew Bush was lying in 2000." "People died for Bush's lies but Clinton gets impeached for what he does in private?" You get the idea. As for whom she likes for president, she's a Clinton supporter, but doesn't dislike Obama. "I really like the energy Obama is bringing to this race. In another year I would vote for him in a second, but I just think our country is in so much trouble, we need someone who knows what they're doing in there. In another 8 years I'd vote for Obama." At first I took this as merely an explanation of why she supports Clinton, but then I asked what I thought was obvious: "But you'll vote for him if he wins the nomination, right?"

Silence.

"But you just said you could never vote for a Republican," I returned, to which she just said "But he doesn't have enough experience." The unspoken implication, of course, was that John McCain does and she'd be tempted to vote for him for that reason alone.

Now, this brings me to a few points.

1. It's naive (not to mention cynical) to assume that the reluctance of some Clinton supporters to support Obama in the fall if he wins the nomination is about race. I've seen a lot written about the horribly racist Clinton supporters unable to cast a ballot for a black man -- Clinton's base is uneducated and racist so the argument goes. The thing is, Obama supporters who jump to the conclusion that his race is the number one reason people don't support him are the ones being ignorant. Are there some? I assume so, just as some support Obama because they can't cast a ballot for a woman. But people need to take the blinders off and realize that there are genuine good faith reasons not to support both of these candidates. In the case of my friend's friend it's about experience, plain and simple.

2. If Obama wins the nomination, his number one goal when picking his running mate should be to shore up his experience credentials. Many Obama supporters will say that Obama's community organizing experience in Chicago is exactly the sort of experience the president should have; that Obama has more legislative experience than Hillary Clinton, blah blah blah. It is all irrelevant. The fact is, Obama has not convinced the electorate that he has the sort of experience people usually associate with the presidency, whether executive, diplomatic, national security, the list goes on, he just hasn't. Democratic primary voters have thus far been quite unconcerned about this gap in his resume, but general election voters will need some reassurance and Obama's VP pick is the way to do it. Sorry Governors Kaine and Sebelius.

3. Having said that, I remain convinced that the relatively high percentage of people who say they would defect if their candidate loses the nomination is inflated and will fall once the nominee is chosen and we're able to unite against a common foe. My friend's friend is a partisan Democrat. She will come home to the party in the end, I have full confidence. But it does point to just what a perfect nominee McCain is for the Republicans in this Democratic year. He's really the only one who could inspire this level of even hypothetical defection and it's definitely something we need to watch out for. But I tend to be an optimist and agree with Senator Reid, that "The negative toll on Obama and Clinton will end five minutes after the nominee is chosen." It would be nice in the meantime if Clinton and Obama partisans didn't use the whole defection narrative as yet another club to bludgeon each other with. Just sayin'.



Display:


Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

This is only because the general election has not started yet.  This happens in all elections about defectors.I'm not worried.


by regina1983 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:14:50 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

The number to keep an eye on is 17%.  That's the average number of defections from democrat to republican in a general election (it's also very close to the number of Obama supporters who say they won't support Hillary should she win the nomination).

The average American is slightly left of center on economic issues, right of center on social issues, and is a registered Democrat.  The phenomenon of "Reagan Democrats" has never gone away; Republicans can't win any election without them.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:33:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I emailed Chuck Todd regarding Reagan Dems and he said that they are overrated and make up maybe 3% of the electorate. He said it is the independent female voters who are the swing voters this election.  


by regina1983 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I'm defining "reagan dems" as any democrat who votes for a republican. Not sure what Chuck Todd's definition is.

But I'm fairly sure my numbers are right.  Any candidate that had only 3% of his or her party defect would win never lose.

White females are always at least party of the swing vote.  The pattern is that Democrats win the black vote overwhelmingly, lose the white male vote solidly, and split the white female vote.  Gore vs. Bush was 50/50 as far as white women were concerned.  It broke something like 52/48 against Kerry.

Also I think turnout might be just as big a factor this year as every-year voters who swing.  If Republicans come out this year with their usual coalition and their usual turnout, they will get wiped out by whoever the Democratic nominee is if turnout remains this high.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

WEell look who's all chummy chummy with Chuck Todd.  

(Can you get me an autograph?)


by LarsThorwald on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 3)

I have never, since I registered to vote, not voted for the Democratic nominee for president. I will not vote for Obama - I won't vote for McCain but I will not vote for Obama. I got at least a half dozen friends who say the same thing and we are all people who volunteered on campaigns and raised money.

I was Deaniac and i voted for Kerry. I loved Harkin but I voted for Clinton. I was the first Dukakis volunteer in Cali so that's the that. I supported Hart but voted for Mondale. I worked on Barry Commoner's campaign but pulled the lever for Carter.

Obama's different. I've never seen a candidate tolerate the kind of bigoted language that he does. He's quite clear that he doesnt' need women voters over 40 in blue states voting for him, so I'm happy to oblige.

This campaign is different. The people who are saying they won't vote for Obama, within my experience, are bedrock Democratic voters who do not think that he represents what we want in the Democratic party.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:20:04 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Obama's different. I've never seen a candidate tolerate the kind of bigoted language that he does.

Do you have any examples?


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

Yes, his "tea with ambassadors" comment and his "periodically" comment. Both of those comments are overtly and undeniably sexist.

Then there's the whole problem of him not backing away from the sexist rhetoric of his pastor and Randi Rhodes. He's quite clearly more than willing to tolerate that kind of rhetoric being deployed on behalf of his campaign.

He doesn't have to back away, or apologize but he can't count on people's votes if there isn't a clear delineation between him and the Republicans.

I'm a Democrat because I'm opposed to bigotry of any kind. I won't vote for a racist. And I won't vote for a misogynist. That simple. And if the Democratic party wants it's most reliable demographic to show up and vote in November, then they're going to have to come to grips with the fact that there are awful lot of women out there who see things like I do.

And as a Democrat, I'm offended.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (1.00 / 2)

Oh dear. Guess what, she WAS having tea with ambassadors. She was not dodging sniper fire she was getting hershey kisses in Bosnia.  She was the FIRST LADY. I don't get how he was being sexist.


by regina1983 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:34:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

You need to read a few historical accounts of the Clinton administration. Bosnia was a war zone and she did fly in - that is a fact. She was on the ground assisting in negotiations in Africa and was instrumental in developing administration policy. Read Joseph Wilson's account of her work. Read what Madelyn Albright has to say, or Holbrooke.

Tea with ambassadors is at odds with the historical record as recounted by literally everyone that was involved in that administration.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Bosnia had been at peace for months.  It wasn't a war zone.  You do not take your child to a war zone.

And even if everything you say is true, you're leaving out the fact that Hillary Clinton told a long story multiple times that video has refuted.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:52:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Oh dear. Guess what, she WAS having tea with ambassadors. She was not dodging sniper fire she was getting hershey kisses in Bosnia.  She was the FIRST LADY. I don't get how he was being sexist.

Oh,my, another Obama supporter adding insult to injury. Yeah, keep it up all the way to the convention if you like. If your boy gets it, then, he'll miss my vote, because I'm voting third party or--even for McCain... The only thing I'll do is squint really hard, open my eyes quickly, press the button next to McCain's name, take two deep breaths, and press confirm.

See, it isn't that hard to vote for McCain. I'm a black guy and I approve this message. No one can accuse me of being racist. Hillary for 2008!!!


by Check077 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:26:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wonder. (none / 0)

I wonder how many more American soldiers might die as a result of Democrats like yourself squinting and voting McCain's name?


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wonder. (none / 0)

seems that many of these Hillary Democrats will become McCain Democrats for god knows what reason.

I do know that policy wise, these two candidates have their strengths and weaknesses compared to one another but neither of them are worse then McCain in any way.

unless of course you be so disenchanted with the fact that Hillary's health care plan probably won't cover a few million people, Obama's around 10-15 million and mcCains over 40 millino.

or how about the war? Hillary and Obama will get out of Iraq while mcCain is willing to stay there another 100 years.

as far as you feminists who can't vote for Obama because of language (you should apply the same litmus test against her campaigns racially charged remarks/actions). Please understand that mcCain will appoint a justice that would be willing to overturn roe vs. wade. Won't get that from either Obama or Hillary.

so be stupid, be pissed and vote GOP or abstain during the most important vote we'll seen in perhaps the next 20 years. Once we lose the Supreme Court, many current and future freedoms from reproductive rights to same-sex couple rights will get trounced. At that point, i'll have nothing but disdain for you.


!
by alex100 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Randi Rhodes has nothing to do with Obama, and you cannot be serious about "periodically".

Besides, you've always said that you won't vote for Barack Obama.  Perhaps you're rich enough to weather a McCain presidency.  Maybe you don't know anyone who's currently in Iraq, or you don't have any family members who are at an age that would put them at risk of dying from an illegal abortion.

But you're way around the bend, and the party doesn't need you.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

I have a stepson who is a Marine who has served in Iraq - that's one of the big reasons I'm opposed to obama. We now know he is planning on keeping 50k to 60k troops in country through 2010. I'm self-employed and my husband run a small business together.

Thank you  for pointing out that the party doesn't need me. God knows, I've volunteered plenty for the party. I've worked on probably 40 campaigns in my life and have shared more than one living room floor with Bob Mulholland.

 


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

First of all, we now know no such thing - what you know is that that's one of his advisor's opinions.  He has a lot of advisors.

And that is NOT one of the reasons you're opposed to Obama; you were crowing that he doesn't have your vote long before that paper was published.

If you don't want to vote for him you will find a reason.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

For the record, i didn't decide not to vote for him until after the "periodically" comment. Up until that point, I planned on voting for him should I have to. But when he engaged in that nasty little bit of misogyny, I ceased to have any reason to believe that he had America's best interests at heart.

I don't think he's big enough. I don't think he understands that there are a world of people out there with different needs - some big, some small. And the whole job is about balancing that and coming up with something that resembles fairness.

As for the 50k troops thing - hopefully, he'll back away from his misogynist rhetoric. But if he does, that paper is one thing he still going to need to explain. That paper is enough to keep me from voting for him.

My son is in logistics with the Marines. He moves people and equipment around the world. Clinton's plan, from what he has heard, makes sense - though he, too, doesn't think we'll leave. And he is supporting McCain.

I think we will if it's Clinton because I think she is going to use the momentum that she gets from pulling out of Iraq to pass national healthcare. I don't really think Obama has the chops to get us out - that's what that paper is all about. that's a job for real professionals, and Obama just isn't that serious.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Which state do you live in?


by LarsThorwald on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

California - and i don't think Obama is going to do as well here as he expects. I'm hearing a lot of fury among Democrats out here about him.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:22:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Then vote McCain if you are so hellbent.  Obama wins California.


by LarsThorwald on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:26:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I don't even understand how the word periodically is sexist.  I use that word all the time, well actually I use it periodically.  I also read a periodical before I got online tonight.  Am I missing something?  Is 'zine' gonna be anti-swedish or something next?


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 0)

If you think Clinton is going to pull all troops out of Iraq you better kidding yourself.  


by Toddwell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Throughout this campaign, as an Obama supporter and older woman, I have found myself at times very conflicted between a strong sense of identification with who Hillary Clinton is and my judgment that he would, nevertheless, make the better president.  I understand the anger of her supporters and have felt it at times.  

Nevertheless, and in spite of idiots on the periphery of both campaigns, I will vote for either Democrat.  It is not a question of party loyalty, it's the feeling that another 4 years of GOP rule would so demolish the things I believe in that it cannot be allowed to happen.  Those things are environmental degradation, a swifter end to the war, vastly improved healthcare access, the protection of civil liberties, better regulation against corporate excesses, and more.  I want to wake up in the morning and not be afraid to look at the paper or turn on my computer because of what revolting move my government has made.  I want to be proud of the reception of my President in any country he or she may go to.  The list goes on and on.

I know this campaign has had its low, really low, moments.  I hope you can find a way to look at how Obama, if he is the candidate, will perform as president as the GE goes on and reassess your decision not to participate.  


by mady on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 5)

I think he'll be the worst Democratic president since Buchanan. Look at his record - he doesn't do anything. He got out of law school, went to work for a medium law firm and promptly did not much of anything of value. He assisted on a few progressive cases but never took the lead. He didn't change people's lives with his actions. he didn't go out of his way to create organizations that successfully lobbied for changes in Illinois. he didn't use his fundraising gifts to create programs that fed little children, or provided them with education. None of that is there. There are a handful things for the year that Emil Jones gifted him with legislation, but that's it - there isn't much else to hang your hat on. Outside of that one year in the legislature, there's not really anything to brag about. For all of his jabbering about being anti-war, he hasn't done anything in the Senate to bring the war to an end. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Where's that post partisan genius? Why can't that be deployed to stop the killing? Clinton has introduced bills and his hammering the Pentagon for an exit plan - not Obama.

I'm around a lot of people who do projects - I'm in the entertainment industry. People who are industrious, who get stuff done, are like that from a very young age. I've worked on a lot of campaigns - indeed, I worked for Tom Hayden's organization Campaign For Economic Democracy - and you see the same thing there. People who get stuff done start doing so at a very young age. I look back at people I knew who were canvassers, and threw themselves into campaigns, and now 25 years later, the most effective ones are doing great work.

That's what Obama lacks - a legacy of getting stuff done. He doesn't use his education, his access or his fundraising abilities to solve problems for other people. It simply isn't there. And that won't change. If that's not who he is now, he won't become that person.

I see the shadiness - the willingness to accept huge, financial favors as  a US senator from a guy that he knows well and good is being investigated by a federal prosecutor for bribing state officials. Why do you think Rezko spent $625k that he really didn't have to make Obama's life nicer?

I see the ugly divisive rhetoric - the willingness to demean women. The unwillingness to apologize.

I see the campaign thuggery - Jesse Jackson jr. going on tv and threatening elected officials unless they vote for obama. Obama supporters calling up Tavis Smiley's elderly mom and brother and threatening them because tavis called Obama out. The willingness of Obama supporters to shut down forums like Hullabaloo by calling Digby, of all people, a cunt. I hope you're proud of that because Obama doesn't mind. I read over and over again that shutting down Taylor Marsh's forum is acceptable because she "asked for it". She's a bitch. She lies about Obama. Obama himself called Rendell up with what sounded like a threat the other day - at least, Rendell took it that way. And then there is the election thuggery - check the video footage of the Texas caucus' of Obama supporters harassing and insulting people. I hope your proud of that too. Then there is the woman he is married to - a coarse mouthed Harvard grad who thinks mocking bill's infidelity is appropriate campaign rhetoric and thinks it's funny to talk about "scratching his eyes out" - this from a woman who has never been proud of her country before. There is Wright - an reconstructed bigot of the first order that Obama will not distance himself from. And finally, there is the Obama campaign's willingness to allow Republicans to alter the results of the election. In Florida, they were running a "be a Republican" for a day campaign out of his campaign office and encouraging Republicans to vote against Hillary by supporting Obama in the primary.

Let me say, as an adult, that'that is not the kind of behavior that I've seen good candidates - mature thinking adults - engage in and tolerate. Obama's unwillingness to distance himself from misogynist rhetoric and behavior that is detrimental to the Democratic party leaves me incapable of believing that he will be an even remotely progressive, or competent president. With his lack of accomplishments and his willingness to tolerate corruption, I just don't see how he can be a good president. And it certainly worth the risk when we have someone like Clinton who has spent her life involved in developing and executing programs and policy that benefit others.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 3)

Excellent post! You covered that very well. The only thing I have to add is the lack of convening one meeting on the Senate sub-committee in 18 months because he was too busy running for president - his responsibilities come second to his ambition.
Yes, there are people who talk and people who get things done. Hillary gets things done and Obama talks.
by georgiast on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 11:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Well she sure didn't get universal healthcare done in 1993.  


by Toddwell on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 3)

Truman didn't get it done back in the forties either. So what? Clinton tried once, failed and has come back again. Obama's not even willing to try once. He starts out by running up the white flag.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:19:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

I appreciate the strength of your point of view.  Obviously if you feel he is such a loathesome candidate you can't vote for him.  


by mady on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed 100% (2.00 / 2)

I'm around a lot of people who do projects.... People who are industrious, who get stuff done, are like that from a very young age.

I agree with this.  Speechifying is well and good, but I respect doers -- my Democratic heroes are people like Mark Warner, a telecoms entrepreneur and venture capitalist.  People like Wes Clark, who fought and won a war.  People like Steve Westly and Maria Cantwell, another internet entrepreneur.

What has Obama actually done to justify the presidency?  

He's done yeoman's work as a community organizer, to be sure, but so have thousands of other people around this country who use that as a springboard to get even bigger things done.

Obama's chief virtue seems to be giving a rip roaring speech, in the right place, at the right time.  And certainly being in the right place at the right time has been instrumental to many a politician.  But when that's all that Obama's got -- well, I have a very hard time justifying a vote for him, regardless of ideology.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agreed 100% (none / 0)

When someone is as dead set against something or someone as you are and Little Otter is in the post above, there really is no information that can change their mind.  

Suffice it to say, for myself, I have supported Democrats all my life and my first choice in the primary rarely won (I actually voted for Fred Harris in, I think it was the the 1976 election).  I could enumerate my reasons for supporting Obama but I know it would not make any difference to you.  Neither would my reasons for thinking that McCain would be as destructive as W is, and that if my candidate did not receive the nomination I would vote for the Democrat who did.

People have their own personal reasons for making the choices they do, and when the conversation goes beyond logic there really is nothing left to say.


by mady on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:09:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

what was the sexism in the "periodically" comment again?  i heard somewhere online that it was supposedto be a covert reference to her menstral cycle, but that just seems silly and rather unbelievable.  if that is what the people think the comment was supposed to mean, isn't it possible that some of us are looking at what he says a little too much?  if that isn't why is was supposed to be sexist, why then?  just want to know.


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

If "tea with ambassadors" is the most bigoted language you have seen from a candidate, can I suggest you have not been paying very close attention.  A little patronising maybe, but bigoted?  Are you claiming Hillary did not have tea with ambassadors?


by interestedbystander on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:58:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain thanks you. (2.00 / 0)

John McCain thanks you for helping him close the gap.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Both candidates are solid Democrats. You probably shouldn't be on a Democratic blog if you're not planning on supporting the Party's candidate.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:25:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

You probably shouldn't be on a Democratic blog if you're not planning on supporting the Party's candidate.

Er, why is this, exactly?  Is there some rule that because you support Democrats generally, you must necessarily support the Democrat in each and every situation, with no allowance for facts and circumstances?


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:21:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Nah, I would think if you are looking to overturn roe v wade, deregulate every industry, wage more wars in the world, and union bust then you should totally be the democrat that can vote for McCain.

Leiberman and Zell Miller are perfect examples.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Not only that, but I've always thought that if you don't intend on voting for the nominee, you had no business in the primary to begin with.  It's like election tampering.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:28:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some states enforce this at upper levels. (none / 0)

Many state parties won't allow you to become a candidate or a delegate if you don't pledge to support the eventual Democratic nominee.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some states enforce this at upper levels. (none / 0)

It's like if three people get together and say "I know we disagree on little things but we agree on big things.  Let's vote amongst ourselves, and whoever wins will go on and lead the other two so that all three of us can beat up the two guys over yonder".

One person wins, and suddenly the other two sit out and watch him get beat up by the two guys they're opposing.

And if anyone has a better metaphor than that (actually it's not a metaphor at all - it's what a political party is) then I'm all ears.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Careful There........ (2.00 / 2)

Obama has been using his Dem For A Day since day one in his campaign. Do you REALLY want to talk about vote tampering? Huh?


by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Difference between Obama Reps and Clinton Reps. (none / 0)

Obama's "Dems for a Day" plan to vote for him in the general.  Hillary's, at the behest of Rush Limbaugh, have no intention of voting for her in the general whatsoever.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm. (2.00 / 2)

This is wrong. As a matter of fact, for th most part, it is a lie if I may be so bold. The "Dems for a Day" are assured that they can vote the Republican Party in the GE. Again, how is that not vote tampering and helping the Republicans decide our nominee?


by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (2.00 / 1)

Also, the Clinton campaign had absolutely nothing to do with Rush's comments to his audience. On the other hand, Dems for a Day (get it?????? just a day??????) is one of the Obama campaign's cornerstones.


by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (2.00 / 1)

I suppose Bill Clinton appeared on Rush Limbaughs show in his own then?


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (2.00 / 1)

I'll believe you and will help you espouse this view if you can find me evidence Obama was looking to have them be Democrats for a day only, and not for good.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (1.50 / 4)

"You can be a Democrat for one day. Vote for Obama and then return to your voting status as you chose [sic].

Everyone regardless of party is welcome to be a Democrat for one day and vote. Republicans, Independents, Everyone, you can make THE difference. If you think a Democrat will win in November and you don't want Hillary you can come to the Democratic Caucus and vote for Obama."

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/1/14/ 145143/927


by Soitgoes on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 11:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm. (none / 0)

I don't even know what "dem for a day" is.  I do know that I'm not talking to any of them here.  I'm talking to people who are Democrats with no disclaimers.

And yes, I am accusing them of election tampering if that was their plan.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

John McCain - Roe v. Wade (2.00 / 1)

John McCain - War in Iran

John McCain - tax cuts for the wealthy

John McCain - corporate corruption

John McCain - reinstating the draft

John McCain - senile rage-prone hothead with a nuclear arsenal

Little Otter - "but I will not vote for Obama"


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John McCain - Roe v. Wade (none / 0)

Little Otter - "but I will not vote for Obama"

...Because he sees a difference between a cabinet member and a first lady.
"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John McCain - Roe v. Wade (2.00 / 3)

Obama's keeping 50k to 60k troops in until 2010 - not different enough from McCain.

Obama votes present on choice issues when he doesn't have - not different enough from McCain (and yes, I know about his Planned Parenthood rating - i will just remind you that they endorsed Lieberman as well).

Obama - voted for the energy bill. Not different enough from McCain. Isn't supporting universal healthcare - not different enough from McCain. Didn't do anything to keep Maytag jobs here and took huge contributions from the family - not different enough from McCain. And last, and most significantly, allowed a guy who was being investigated for bribing state officials to spend $625k of his own money to assist Obama in buying a house - worse than McCain.

McCain can't reinstate the draft so don't even try.

The nuclear thing - eh, I don't think he's going to go nuke someone. He'll keep us in Iraq but obama will as well.

I won't vote for bigots - it's that simple. You want women to turn out and vote, don't use misogynist rhetoric. If you do use misogynist rhetoric, you risk losing those votes. You certainly wouldn't expect African Americans to vote if someone was using racist rhetoric - well, it's the same thing. I have no idea why that is so hard for people to understand.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John McCain - Roe v. Wade (none / 0)

Clinton will probably keep all of the troops in Iraq.  


by Toddwell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John McCain - Roe v. Wade (none / 0)

Obama votes present on choice issues when he doesn't have - not different enough from McCain

Little Otter - the difference between Obama and McCain on choice issues is the difference between a pro-choice and an anti-choice decision on every single ruling that will be made by the Supreme Court for an indefinite period of years following the next death or resignation of a current justice.

Little Otter - the difference between Obama and McCain on choice issues is the difference between a pro-choice and an anti-choice decision on every single ruling that will be made by the Supreme Court for an indefinite period of years following the next death or resignation of a current justice.

Little Otter - the difference between Obama and McCain on choice issues is the difference between a pro-choice and an anti-choice decision on every single ruling that will be made by the Supreme Court for an indefinite period of years following the next death or resignation of a current justice.

Make no mistake about it. If you fail to vote against John McCain, you will be responsible for the biggest setback for women's rights in US history.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John McCain - Roe v. Wade (2.00 / 1)

John McCain - War in Iran
John McCain - reinstating the draft

We know this how, exactly?  McCain's stated position on Iraq has been that the reason for going to war was valid, but that the war has been poorly prosecuted.  And his position is that going forward, we need to withdraw "with honor," i.e., responsibly.  And I agree with that.  I think even Obama ultimately agrees with that.

I for one am glad that McCain is likely to focus his foreign policy on great powers, i.e., China, Europe, and Russia, and not to waste his political capital on peripheral matters, like Djibouti or obscure ethnic conflicts in Kenya -- which is what Obama has stated his priorities will be.

John McCain - tax cuts for the wealthy

Well, in point of fact, he initially opposed the Bush tax cuts.  Of course, now he says he favors them.  We'll see.  I have a hunch he'll easily go back to the maverick of 2000 once in office.

And then there's Obama, who apparently wants a significant hike in the capital gains tax.  Now, a capital gains tax cut is not a panacea for the economy, as Bush pere made it out to be; but a significant increase will deter investment.  And a majority of Americans now own shares.  That's a tax increase for the middle class.

John McCain - corporate corruption

Again, how?  If anything, it's the opposite.  He called out Boeing when the company tried to win its tanker contract without a competitive bidding process -- and with the former Secretary of the Air Force on the brink of joining Boeing's payroll.  This was his finest hour in government.

John McCain - senile rage-prone hothead with a nuclear arsenal

A hothead, perhaps.  But do you have evidence he's senile?  Are you a licensed psychiatrist who's had the opportunity to examine and diagnose McCain?  Or are you playing armchair doctor here?


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: John McCain - Roe v. Wade (none / 0)

So am I the only one here in Hillary-land with the heart to argue with this McCain supporter?

>Obama's keeping 50k to 60k troops in until 2010 - not different enough from McCain.

Not different from staying in Iraq for 100 years and starting "other wars" with Iran and __??

>McCain's stated position on Iraq has been that the reason for going to war was valid but that the war has been poorly prosecuted.

So he's only 50% disasterously wrong on that.

>Well, in point of fact, he initially opposed the Bush tax cuts.  Of course, now he says he favors them.  We'll see.  I have a hunch he'll easily go back to the maverick of 2000 once in office.

Forgive me if I'm not that comforted by your hunch.

>John McCain - corporate corruption

Again, how?

1) uncovered the Abramoff scandal and then covered it up so Bush could be reelected.

2) has a campaign staff of lobbyists who work on their day jobs from the Straight Talk Express.

A hothead, perhaps.  But do you have evidence he's senile?

According to 6 GOP senators he's an outrageous hothead. According to another POW who was with him in military school before they were together as POWs in Vietnam he was always given to fits of rage. His short fuse is evident even in press conferences. As for his senility he can't remember what his own positions are on contraceptives and AIDS and had to ask an aide to look it up. He can't remember the difference between Al Queda and  Iran. No, I'm not doctor and I don't know the medical definition of "senile", if there is one. But I know what a grumpy, hazy, fuzzy-thinking old man sounds like when I hear it.


McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist.
by obsessed on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:03:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 0)

Little Otter,

Should Obama be the nominee, I hope you will reconsider your thoughts.

In terms of policy, Clinton and Obama (all leading Democratic candidates) essentially represent the same program,compared to the GOP, they promote the same policies. If you care about the Democratic agenda, and righting the many wrongs, the Democratic nominee must win, regardless of who it is.

But frankly for someone who is thoughtful and obviously intelligent, why would you judge Obama so harshly just because of some wrong-headed sentiments voiced by his preacher?

Too many people have focussed on only the negative words of J. Wright to such an extent, they forget that the man's influence on Obama is very much contained, that Obama himself condemns the sentiments, and that the offensive language is a small part of the man, who also deserves credit for the many good works he's accomplished as a pastor.

Obama hardly "tolerates bigoted language."  He recognizes that many of us are flawed -- such as Wright -- and he accepts us in our totality without judgment. This is the Christian faith.


by wolff109 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

Great - he can be a Christian in his private life. I got no problems with that. I have big problems with a guy who uses misogynist rhetoric himself, attends a church pastored by an outspoken bigot and feels no need to distance himself from bigoted rhetoric deployed on his behalf.

That isn't my idea of a Democrat. If that's what the Democratic party is now - fine, they can do without my votes, my money or my time. I'll show up and vote for Democrats who refrain from demeaning in their personal rhetoric, and who encourage their supporters to refrain from such rhetoric as well.


by Little Otter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 0)

Little Otter obviously has never heard of Pat Robertson .. Jerry Falwell .. or John Hagee .. and Little Otter likes to conveientlt forget McCain's little trip to Liberty U. a short time before Falwell passed on


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 0)

 Translation:  It's MY party, and I'll cry if I want to.  

 There are plenty of McCain defectors (unless they are mischief-making Republicans) on this supposedly partisan Democratic blog.  Harmony starts in your own backyard everyone.  That the front-pagers jump on every little f-up from each of the campaigns isn't helping either.


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 0)

I think these are the people who will be paying particularly close attention to the one-on-one aspect of the GE (debates, policy statements when events happen) and making their comparisons freshly throughout.  I have no doubt that for most Democrats those comparisons will enable them to vote for their party's candidate.  Right now it's all theoretical, as it gets concrete Dems will come home.


by mady on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:22:37 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

I don't believe for a second any passionate Democrat -- who's mentally stable -- will vote for McCain this year, regardless of how bitter the Clinton-Obama contest becomes.

November is a LONG way. A lot will happen to compel people back to their senses.

I understand the frustration many partisans might feel, and how this could lead them to express that frustration. But come November, those "I'd-rather vote-for-McCain-than-Obama/Clinton" rants will seem childish.


by wolff109 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:23:32 PM EST

Blood on their hands for "experience." (2.00 / 0)

Were John McCain to win, I hope your "defector" friend would look back at this election decades from now and appreciate the thousands of additional dead Iraqis and Americans killed in prolonged occupation during John McBush's time in the White House to satisfy her desire for "experience."

Democrats who would even consider voting Republican simply on the "experience" issue have zero foresight and seriously questionable priorities.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:23:51 PM EST

I'll say it again (2.00 / 1)

<bold>McCain WILL overturn Roe vs. Wade</bold>.  It's only hanging on by one vote, and you know McCain (who has never been moderate on this issue despite what the media says) will put up a justice to overturn it.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:24:57 PM EST

Re: I'll say it again (2.00 / 0)

That is worth reprinting everywhere. Lotsa people assume McCain is moderate on everything because he doesn't get along with Republicans. No sir. He has ALWAYS been very anti-abortion.
"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll say it again (none / 0)

If you do blog on Daily Kos, check out my diary on the subject:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/5/2 1102/37447/560/489628

John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.
by jkfp2004 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)


Geez, Todd. I've never heard of a single Clinton supporter who is against Obama because of race. Many of us would not support Obama should he unwisely become the nominee because he's woefully inexperienced, we don't trust him, and he has some crippling character issues. He scares the hell out of a lot of us!

I'll bet that ever single Hillary supporter would vote for someone like Mayor Nutter in the GE if he were the nominee so race is irrelevant.

The issue with Obama is the content of his character, NOT HIS RACE!


by Nobama on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:25:49 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I agree. The issue with Obama is the content of his character, NOT HIS RACE!

Todd,
I am in the same boat as your friend. I will not vote for McCain but will also not vote for Obama.

All the best to the democratic party


by indus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I am just the other way.  I wont vote for McCain but wont vote for Clinton either.  


by Toddwell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 2)

McCain thanks you both.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This. (2.00 / 0)

I'd mojo you ten times over if I could.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:48:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This. (none / 0)

I'll take the kind thoughts.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (1.00 / 1)

Pontius Pilate's hands weren't clean, and neither will yours be.
"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

This is why people should not be surprised if Obama (assuming he gets the nomination) offers the VP slot to Hillary.  This is also why any good democrat, including Hillary, should recognize the duty of coming together on one ticket and fulfilling our primary duty, defeating the Republicans in November who have run this country into a ditch.  Focusing on the personal stuff is the ultimate unpatriotic act at this point.


by dge on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:26:23 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

  This cuts both ways, Todd.  Maybe if Hillary weren't closing the Daou triangle on Obama, the situation wouldn't be so dire.  Hillary is more than a little responsible for this narrative.  Thanks, Hillary.  


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:28:06 PM EST

Only 21% of Democrats put experience first (2.00 / 1)

Scroll down to What Matters Most?


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:28:26 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 0)

Good diary.

I know I'm a minority on this point, but I think experience is overrated (although not totally unimportant).  Right now, the most experienced person for commander in chief is George W. Bush.

If experience was what made W such a disaster, you'd think he'd have gotten better over time.  He got worse.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:30:27 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Yes, and smart people could see that GW hadn't accomplished anything or succeeded in anything in his life before becoming president. Obama hasn't accomplished anything either - nothing as a lawyer, nothing as a senator. So do you expect him to change and suddenly become a hard-working capable commander in chief?


by georgiast on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 11:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I know I'm a minority on this point, but I think experience is overrated (although not totally unimportant).

I agree with this.  But the problem in an Obama-McCain contest is that we aren't offered the choice between lots of experience and some experience, as we were in 1992.  

Rather, we're offered the choice between lots of experience and no experience.  And that is troubling.

If Obama were espousing reasonably mainstream foreign policy views, I could still overlook this.  But he's given us gems such as favoring total nuclear disarmament.  

He relies on a foreign affairs adviser who wants to intervene everywhere genocide is threatened, which is a prescription for more Iraqs.

He's co-sponsored legislation to put more sanctions on Iran, while at the same time claiming he favors a summit with Ahmadinejad.  This sends mixed signals.

He wants (according to his foreign affairs speechwriter) to focus on Djibouti and Indonesia, rather than on China and Russia.  He's displayed no interest in our European allies and could not even be bothered to hold a single hearing on Europe when he was in a position to stand up to Bush and make a real impact, for the better, on our relations with Europe.

This all strikes me as being horribly naive.  Jimmy Carter-style naive.  Carter came in preaching the virtues of a human rights-centric foreign policy and left muttering about how the invasion of Afghanistan taught him the true brutality of the Soviets.  And we were left in the wilderness for 12 years as a result.

This is not something I want to emulate.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:39:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I don't know, to me I am offered the choice of a supreme court for the next 30 years.

It's not a troubling or tough choice to make at all.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On picking a VP (none / 0)

"his number one goal when picking his running mate should be to shore up his experience credentials"

If Obama is the nominee, he would do well to remember what happened in '88.

Michael Dukakis tried to toughen his image up by selecting Sen. Lloyd Bentsen from Texas. His steely-eyed demeanor and acidic wit had the party wishing HE was the nominee. It backfired on Dukakis, big-time.

Meanwhile, VP George Bush the wimp suffered a severe image problem. But by selecting young Indiana Senator Dan Quayle he was suddenly transformed into a stately figure next to Quayle and his penchant for verbal gaffes.

We all know how that went.


by wolff109 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:30:43 PM EST

Re: On picking a VP (none / 0)

The better model is Bush/Cheney.  Adding Cheney to the ticket had the press saying "now he has gravitas".  John Stewart did a skit on it where he just looped the number of cable news commentators using that word.

Dukakis picked Lloyd Bentson because Bentson had defeated George H.W. Bush when he ran for Senate.  That doesn't really apply here.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:39:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On picking a VP (none / 0)

Actually, I think the Cheney pick for VP reinforces my point.

Recall that until 9/11, most people joked that Cheney was running the white house while Bush was always exercising or doing something trivial. In fact, given the Iraq debacle, many people STILL think Cheney is pulling the strings.


by wolff109 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On picking a VP (none / 0)

Either way, historical models will only get you so far.  Dukakis was not a very good candidate; he wasn't charismatic, he wasn't particularly fast on his feet, and he didn't exactly "electrify" people.  He's not in the same league with either Obama or Clinton.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

If you dont believe some of Clintons supporters wont vote for Obama because of race   I have a sister you need to talk to    and I can dismiss your falace imeadiatly


by marketingman on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:34:50 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Hell, my friend's mom said she wouldn't vote for Edwards because his wife was dying. I'm not joking. I blew up and had to work very hard to get down from that one.
"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:43:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

if we're going to talk about silly reasons not to vote for someone, my grandmother wouldn't vote for mitt romney because romney's sister (or maybe cousin) lived next to them a few decades back and was really snotty.


Being Normal is for the Mediocre.
by Doug Tuttle on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama-Graham '08 (none / 0)

That's Bob Graham, former Governor and Senator from Florida.  I'd suggest Bill Nelson, but then we'd lose his seat when Crist got to select his replacement.


Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:39:50 PM EST

Re: Obama-Graham '08 (none / 0)

Graham would not be a bad choice.  Neither would Sam Nunn.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

With Edwards drawing himself out now (and it's debatable how much he would've added to the experience meme), I think the best option, if Obama is the nominee, is Jim Webb, assuming he wants the post.  I think Webb has the potential of drawing in the blue collar/rural votes.  His military background would play well against McCain's.

It's nothing personal against Richardson, but despite all his experience, I don't think he's the right nod.  If it's the experience meme, I think Joe Biden would be an intriguing option.  Let's see, what other Senators.  I would offer Evan Bayh up, but we'll have to see if Obama would look that way.  Oh, and I'd definitely pass on Chuck Hagel.

Oh, I will vote for Obama barring some some stunning macaca moment.


by toonsterwu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:42:26 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I'd be very interested in Webb, if he'd take it. Hard for anyone to get better credentials than that. He's against the war for all the right reasons.
"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

And Edwards was never an Obama pick for Veep. He has the same appeal. Edwards was the choice for Clinton. He helps pick up the rich, smart, progressive Kos crowd that she does poorly with.
"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:46:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I disagree with the idea that Edwards wouldn't help Obama.  He would've helped Obama with the blue collar/rural vote that was very supportive of him, and that Obama hasn't been able to make as much headway with, despite the union endorsements.


by toonsterwu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Obama does fine with the blue collar rural vote.  It's appalachia and the deep south that kills him.

But he won Wisconson by 17 points.  He's just about swept the west and the midwest.  But Democrats in general and black people in particular have always had trouble with Appalachia.

If the election gets that far, get ready for "The Kentucky Massacre" to enter the lexicon.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm almost certain that the blue collar/rural vote has gone more for HRC, unless my mind is slipping me.  Now, the assumption is that this is the "core" and they'll go Democrat.  I tend to think that's risky thinking (not a huge believer in "core" voting).  Now, I'm not saying that Obama can't win those votes.  Rather, I'm saying he still has to sell those voters his economic vision a bit, and if there's any issues in selling, then we risk having those voters perhaps voting on other issues, issues that don't always resonate with the party.  Why not find an individual that can sell to those voting bases as well?  BEtter safe than sorry.

That said, I do think someone like Jim Webb could reach out to those populations.


by toonsterwu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:15:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Definitely not Chuck Hagel, but how about Chuck Robb?  Why take a sitting senator like Webb out of the Senate and risk possibly losing his seat in a special election, when you can get similar experience from the same state in a retired senator?  Who just happens to have chaired the Iraq Intelligence Commission -- good background experience for the job of eviscerating McCain on the subject of his greatest perceived strength, his supposed leadership on foreign policy and national security?


Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:47:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

eh ... to be honest, i hadn't thought of Robb in awhile, but I'm not sure if Robb resonates enough.  

Here's what I was thinking on Webb.  If Webb gets the nod, then Kaine could end up running for that Senate spot.  That said, I don't know Virginia's special elections laws too well, so that might be a problem if we can't maintain the governorship.  McDonnell seems to resonate well, so the 2009 gubernatorial race in Virginia is going to be tight, despite the headway we've made.  Creigh Deeds is interesting, but I think I'd rather see Brian Moran in there.


by toonsterwu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Bold suggestion....almost.

Robb don't got it. The last thing you want on the VP slot is a shiny resume who can't campaign worth a darn.

He was groomed for national office from Day 1, but fizzled. (Recall he married LBJ's daughter). He nearly lost to Ollie North in '94 because he slept-walked through his campaign. In the final week he became a loud, articulate, populist fire-brand. Which was great....

But then he faded the second he returned to the Senate. That's how we wound up with George Allen in 2000.


by wolff109 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:59:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Senators don't have special elections - that's for members of the house.  When a Senator leaves, his or her replacement is chosen by the Governor - in this case, Mark Warner (hopefully).

Jim Webb is perfect - at least on paper.  People who know say that he doesn't campaign well, and has a tendency to wander off the script, but he's my first choice if it's Obama.


by Mostly on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Mark Warner is goingi to be in the Senate barring an absolute stunner.  The race is between Creigh Deeds and Brian Moran on the Democratic side, with Bob McConnell the likely nominee on the Republican side.


by toonsterwu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Chuck Robb? ...   The one whose mistress posed for Playboy?  And he's about as old as McCain .. anyway .. look at this Wikipedia page  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Rob b    ... he'd sink the ticket


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:12:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Webb.  Count me in the Webb for VP camp.

He

-- Helps on the "experience" issue (which I believe to be a non-issue, frankly)
-- Helps on National Security
-- Helps by putting Virginia more in play (I really do believe that Virginia--which has seen a strong but findamental change over thelast decade--is on the brink of voting for a Democrat)
-- Is correct on policy

My only concern is that Webb does not draw in the Mom Jeans crowd, which Obama needs.  


by LarsThorwald on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:44:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I think his age might be an advantage, on the "experience" issue.


Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:13:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Yeah, Webb would be Obama's best choice. He's going to need someone with gravitas, and military experties. He probably needs someone who knows how to bowl as well.

Isn't Webb's wife Asian? That would be a cool.


by Little Otter on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:31:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

"If Obama wins the nomination, his number one goal when picking his running mate should be to shore up his experience credentials. ..experience people usually associate with the presidency, whether executive, diplomatic, national security, the list goes on, he just hasn't. Democratic primary voters have thus far been quite unconcerned about this gap in his resume, but general election voters will need some reassurance and Obama's VP pick is the way to do it."

This is why I have been thinking about Richard Gephardt a lot.  The man has more credibility with labor and blue collar folks than just about anyone, and has more experience than just about anyone. He is from a state we need too!


by a gunslinger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:43:25 PM EST

Genius!! (none / 0)

I completely forgot about him and he is loved by blue collar folks. That is such a smart move. Was he pro choice?


by regina1983 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:48:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Genius!! (none / 0)

Oops he has some problems. He is also 67. Hmm.


by regina1983 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Genius!! (none / 0)

From wiki:

"Gephardt is widely viewed as an economic populist. He supports universal health coverage, fair trade, and progressive taxation. Although he once chaired the centrist Democratic Leadership Council, Gephardt in his later years in Congress distanced himself from the organization, finding his pro-labor views at odds with the DLC's pro-business positions.

On October 10, 2002, Dick Gephardt was among the 81 House Democrats who voted in favor of authorizing the invasion of Iraq."

If voting FOR the Iraq war is too big a sin to consider a candidate, then we wouldn't be arguing right now.

Gephardt has experience aplenty, union bonafides, and MO.  Yeah he's 68...but that is the VERY sprt of thing he needs.  Hillary herself will be what...61 this year? 7 years..no biggie.


by a gunslinger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:05:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

My two cents: No thank you, to Gephardt.

Gephardt is a lousy option. Watching him screw up over and over again as minority leader only proved he can't lead the party. He was always too quick to make a deal, and a crappy negotiator. He got schooled by the GOP at every turn.

He (and Daschle) are the reason W was able to kick our butts in 2002, despite the many Bush failings and easy political openings we could have leveraged.


by wolff109 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Well we ARE only talking about VP here. And I don't blame Gephardt for 2002.  The DNC did not have an answer for 9/11...that wasn't Gephardt's fault.

Here are some other options:

Richardson
Hillary
Zinni
Graham

Gore would NEVER do it, unfortunately.


by a gunslinger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

You should blame GOPheart for 2002. When he caved in to Bush he split his own party and facilitated the stampede to disaster.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

"that Obama has more legislative experience than Hillary Clinton, blah blah blah. It is all irrelevant."

No it ISN'T irrelevant.  But you're helping Republicans make it irrelevant.  We Obama supporters need your help.  Don't you think it's time to stop hurting Obama, Todd?  Don't you think the primary is just about over?


Jim Oberweis
by cilerder86 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:05:01 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

"If Obama wins the nomination, his number one goal when picking his running mate should be to shore up his experience credentials."

Wrong.

He should choose either Gov. Kathleen Sibelius or Gov. Janet Napalitano in order to invite women voters of both parties to help make history. They would also put their respective states into play.

Obama doesn't need some foreign policy svengali who is the DLC equivalent of Boss Cheney in order to attract voters.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:13:37 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I meant foreign policy rasputin like Boss Cheney.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

If the Repug were anyone but McCain, Napolitano would put Arizona in play.  Not against McCain.  And I'm skeptical that Kansas can be put in play no matter who's on the ticket; Kerry-Edwards never had a chance in North Carolina, after all.


Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Can't speak for KS, but Napalitano is very popular in AZ. McCain would take the state for granted at his peril.

But the main strength of either Nap or Sib would be their ability to attract women voters of both parties.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

True, and that could be important for Obama after a narrow victory over Hillary Clinton.  It's a damned shame we didn't manage to elect Betty Castor or Inez Tenenbaum to the Senate in 2004, actually -- a female southern senator would be an excellent choice for Obama's running mate.


Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for President! Beat McCain!
by Alex on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 10:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

The two I mentioned fulfill as good a purpose as any southerner. And I think we do southerners a disservice by assuming that "one of their own" must be on presidential ballots in order to get their votes. It's just as likely it doesn't matter anyway and they vote GOP these days regardless.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 12:53:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Thanks for the post.  I really appreciate that MyDD is leading the sanity revolution in the liberal blogosphere.  This was sort of a anecdotal and, to me, more helpful version of a Jerome poll posting, that explained Obama's perception weaknesses.

If and when Obama wins the nomination, I and his other supporters are going to need every last Clinton supporter to help make his case.  That means listening to their current critiques of Obama and framing defenses to them in the GE (hopefully with their help?  We'd do the same for you).


by Cloudspitter on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:14:20 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I think many voters see Obama as belonging for 20 years to an organization that flouts, promotes and promulgates a philosophy of "blacks over all others" (i.e. a Church that adheres to the principles of Black Liberation Theology).  Many of us don't feel that to date he has explained why he has belonged for so long to a such an apparently racist religious congregation.  If "black over all others" is not a racist position, what is it?  During the campaign how would he counter the ad nauseum Republican 527 ads that will hint at, if not accuse him of being a racist given his long time membership in TUOCC? I can't think of a way for us to defend him against such a charge - I think he needs to provide us with a defense. The racism issue is not the only issue voters have with Obama belonging to TUOCC, but we can tackle the other issues later.


always analyzing
by nittakluc on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 10:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I appreciate the reply.  I do not agree that it's Obama's responsibility to defend the concept of liberation theology, or of black liberation theology, but I will happily give it my best.

Liberation theology is an all-American theology in the truest sense; it was developed the same year, though separately, in North and South America.  The core concept to liberation theology is the following: God has what is known as a "preferential option for the poor", as exhibited through the life of Jesus.  Jesus spends time and energy helping those who would be considered to be at the margins of society, those who are helpless and defenseless.  Jesus himself is a Jew: a racial group that was stigmatized and persecuted.

So in North America in the Sixties, that translated to (but was not limited to): black people.  Reimagining Jesus as a figure who would not only promise a heaven for oppressed black people in the future, BUT would work and risk his life for them on this earth, was a powerful paradigm shift.  When was the last time you've seen Jesus depicted as anything other than a Northern European?  I guess it's ok for everyone to have his own Jesus.  What liberation theology is saying, is that showing Jesus as white in North America in the 20th century makes us forget of who Jesus was in his own century: an oppressed racial minority.

But I wouldn't call black liberation theology a "black over all others" theology in the sense that blacks are inherently superior.  But it does recognize that there are priorities to be placed in the transformation of society, and those priorities are with those who have the least.  In North America, that's poor blacks and Hispanics relegated to awful school systems, poor whites struggling to get jobs, gays, disabled people... you get the idea.  I would think this concept very Democratic(big d)-friendly.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hal_C one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_ theology

Liberation theology and black liberation theology are polarizing subjects, sure... but I think that if the Democratic Party could handle John Edwards 2.0, then they can handle this.  And I think America can handle it.  Here's a quote from James Cone, one of BLT's major architects, in 1977:

I think the time has come for black theologians and church people to move beyond a mere reaction to white racism in America and begin to extend our vision of a new socially constructed humanity in the whole inhabited world...For humanity is whole, and cannot be isolated into racial and national groups.[5]

Finally, if it is not clear why there is black religious anger against white churches, I refer y'all to MLK Jr's excellent Letter from Birmingham Jail.  Thanks for reading.


by Cloudspitter on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with your post (none / 0)

At this point I think Obama's only remaining MAJOR weakness is his lack of experience. He's taken care of the other ones.

Unfortunately this is also the only weakness he can't get rid of, because it's just plainly true.


by Korha on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:15:20 PM EST

Re: I agree with your post (none / 0)

At this point I think Obama's only remaining MAJOR weakness is his lack of experience. He's taken care of the other ones.

Do his bizarre policy stances give you no pause at all?  Things like total nuclear disarmanent, a preoccupation with obscure ethnic conflicts in Africa at the expense of our relations with the great powers, and a massive capital gains tax hike?

It is often said that the policy differences between Clinton and Obama are minute.  Nothing could be further from the truth.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with your post (none / 0)

Well said. I think Obama has cleverly positioned his rhetoric that his supporters read into them whatever they want. Juxtapose Obama's  own words with what you've read about Iran, North Korea, China and Pakistan. This man has not thought deeply about any of these subjects -- scary.


by BostonIndependent on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:25:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Obama's "lack of experience" is a strength when compared to McSame's "lack of judgment."

People seem to be sick of "experienced" leaders who nevertheless perpetuate the same old stupidities.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:22:54 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

Wow, I think you're wrong, Todd. This nomination process has been an ugly, bitter experience for Clinton supporters. They have seen their candidate called a racist, a whore, a monster. Clinton supporters have repeatedly been told their candidate should get out of the race, that she's unelectable by Kerry, Pelosi, Dodd, Richardson, etc. She's been called every name in the book by a "progressive" media--old friends, many of them--who have turned against us in a shocking way. And I think, Todd, that you badly underestimate how this whole nomination is hitting women on levels that you are not personally able to relate to.

I think it is going to be a tough road to get Clinton supporters back if Obama is the nominee. If he wins by the wrongful disenfranchisement of Florida and Michigan, it will be impossible.

This is not a romantic movie about star-crossed lovers who fall into each other's arms at the end of the film.

Not after thism Todd.  


by cc on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:23:34 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Who else will they vote for? McSame? Green? Libertarian? Nader? Or truly waste their votes by not casting them at all?

One thing's for certain. The foolishness of others is not something the wise can let determine their own actions.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

"They have seen their candidate called a racist, a whore, a monster"

And Obama supporters have seen their candidate called a racist too, and also a misogynist, and they have also seen him called a "kid" that's attempting to "shuck and jive" his way into the presidency.

They have seen him condescendingly offered the VP position by the person trailing him, just after that person had described him as too inexperienced for the position of commander-in-chief.


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I ran into a group of McCain defectors Friday (none / 0)

My brother and his friends are longshoremen. When they are not working Friday nights it is poker night at his house. The question of Obama came up. Three of the five said they would vote for McCain. These are strong union people. I was amazed.


by joliepoint on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:26:07 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

"Three of the five said they would vote for McCain. These are strong union people. I was amazed."

"Stong union people'" have been shooting their own feet by voting GOP for decades. Ironically, it's coincided with the demise of their unions and loss of good jobs. But voting against one's own best interests when one chooses to goes along with the right to vote.

Someday there won't be any good union jobs left and who will they honestly blame but those of themselves who voted corporate GOP?


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:33:48 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Micheal Obama is a horrible woman, and Racist,
She said if Her husband does not win she will not back the democratic Party,,,
that is why so many Hilary Voter will not even back Obama if he wins the primary, There not going to vote or Vote for McCain,,, Just like the Obama supports say if Hilary wins the Primary,,Obama supporter will Vote for McCain,,, I do think America is Ready for a Black President, it would be good for the country,, Not Barack Obama,,He has No agenda, Anything he says He going to do came from Hilary,, Or the Media tell  him what he should do..If Barack Obama Became president,,,Cancel Christmas, we don't need a liar & closest Racist in the white house, Thanks to CNN & Msnbc or trying to Propaganda this race and make it one sided,,, Obama gets all positive press. Hilary gets all negative press,, but Hilary Voter will never back Obama
by paulanthony60 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:46:39 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

No she isn't.

And it's Michelle.  If you are going to insult someone spell their name right.


by yitbos96bb on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

You could at least get her name right if you are going to go off on an incorrect and ignorant tangent.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Interesting spin. Unfortunately, this post talks about the "racist" democrats that are not able to vote for a black President. Riddle me this - what happens to Clinton when more than half of blacks sit out the race because it was stolen from the winning candidate?

If America can't elect a qualified and gifted candidate because some people are racist, then we need to know now so people like Wright and Sharpton are vindicated because so many people tell them they are crazy and that we do not need affirmative action.

Playing it safe with the white candidate will just be an example of democrats not being strong enough to change this country.

I am a Republican defector since 2004 and I am supporting Obama but I cannot vote for Clinton due to her "honesty" problems.

You see, some won't vote for blacks, many will not vote for liars.

Any data or stats on that issue?


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:50:52 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

So we are all supposed to vote for Obama BECAUSE he is black?


by georgiast on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 11:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

But, I'm supposed to feel guilty for not supporting HRC because I'm a woman and all women are supposed to support HRC?


by monkey on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I think Obama's veep should be from  a purple state that could turn blue. Strickland from Ohio, although supports Hillary, would not turn down the invitation.

Also Mark Warner would be a better pick than Webb which is also another purple state turning blue.

HIllary would not make a good choice because she would bring a blue state to the table. Even though record numbers would come out and vote for both, it may not be enough to take a red or purple state from McCain.


summer is for swimming
by susu1969 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:51:08 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Picking Mark Warner for veep would be perhaps the one of the few things that would 100% guarantee my vote for Obama in November.

Unfortunately, the drawbacks are that the veep would clearly outshine the president, and that the Virginia senate seat would probably break for the Republicans.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:51:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

So It sounds like in your opinion that someone like Richardson or Clinton would be best.  I think unless Clinton is forced on Obama, Richardson is going to be the VP... maybe Biden.


by yitbos96bb on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 09:52:23 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (2.00 / 1)

staying home and not voting is a vote for McCain.


summer is for swimming
by susu1969 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:06:23 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I like to think of it as a vote for Alito, Thomas, Scalia, and Roberts.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The "Marshans" (none / 0)

A great post on this big problem Obama will have.
His problem is white women.

If anyone spends time reading Taylor Marsh's blog,
she really hates Obama, so much so you'd think she's about to endorse McCain.  And some of the commentators are saying they would support McCain, even with donations!

There are a lot of references to Fox News, Michael Barone's article on "Jacksonians vs. Academics," and other right-wing sites and sources.

I really think there's a real concern about Obama's substance, his lack of experience, his "aloofness," his refusal to allow Florida and Michigan to be counted.

But what really's striking about reading Taylor's blog is that Obama is an elitist, another Kerry/Dukakis clone.  That's what's holding him back in her eyes.  And there's a lot of Deval Partick bashing.

And in reading the comments, I think there's a lot of subtle racism, and cries of sexism from Hillary supporters.

So how to satisfy these white working women with a vice presidential selection?  I don't think Obama wants all the baggage associated with Hillary.

My choices for Obama's running mate would come down to Biden, Richardson or perhaps Vilsack or Evan Bayh.


by mikelow1885 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 10:58:24 PM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Then tell your friend that she represents the worst kind of igorance: the kind that ignores facts. She points to one flaw of Obama's and  ignores the numerous flaws of McCain. That's disgustingly stupid. My biggest fear is that most of the country suffers from the same brain defect.


by neverfox on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 11:15:07 PM EST

I Suspect there will be quite a few .. (none / 0)

The story of this McCain defector is entirely consistent with the sense among many of my firends here in NJ who previously voted for Reagon twice followed by GHWB but then switched and voted Clinton (twice), followed by Gore and then most cases Kerry. I wrote the following in a comment on March 11th: LINK


"...I think that Obama has no idea what is going to hit him in places like NJ. The democratic majority in NJ includes large number of Reagon democrats (or I should say latter day democrats who really have deep rupublicans roots)in addition to recent immigrants, latinos, etc. What is going to prove to be Obama's undoing here is not race but his "thin resume" . And believe me this carries a lot of weight here. I remember that in 2000 a lot of republican friends would say that GWB has good ideas but does not seem to be seasoned enough and they couldn't make themselves vote for him. So Gore won with a cool 12% without spending like an hour campaiging here. By 2004 lot's of these latter day dems wanted to give Bush a second chance in view of 9/11 so Kerry was down to 6%. So despite of what Obama may want to believe, in a place like NJ the democratic majority is tenuous at best, MacCain is well respected, Obama's attacks on Clinton(s) have not played well (who also are well liked around here), and 2 years of Senate experience for a resume does not cut it. I would hazard that if the choice is McCain/Obama about 20-30% of the Kerry voters will end up voting for McCain. I suspect there are a few other NE states Obama will have problems in .."


Personally, I still think democrats will be stupid to nominate someone with the thin qualifications of Obama. But only time will tell ...


by ScottinNJ on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 11:30:30 PM EST

Re: I Suspect there will be quite a few .. (none / 0)

I think Democrats would be morons NOT to nominate Obama.  This guy has a grassroots movement second to none and will bring in dozens more Congressional seats.  


by Toddwell on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:00:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Suspect there will be quite a few .. (2.00 / 1)

I think Democrats would be morons NOT to nominate Obama.  This guy has a grassroots movement second to none...

So did McGovern.  The passionate support of a core of committed supporters does not guarantee an election.


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

another throw away post.

I go to school at Yale. I've met one guy outside my program who's a democrat and hates both Obama and Clinton. He'll vote for McCain in the GE. Let's write up a diary on him no?

Out of the 39 people in my program, I'd venture to say that only a few voted for Clinton (none that stated so). 14-16 or so voted for Obama (the rest are international students who can't vote or students who didn't vote). I'm not aware of anyone who's a Republican.

I can say that some of the folks who voted for Obama will not vote in the GE if clinton wins while some will vote for Clinton.


!
by alex100 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:36:50 AM EST

For God and for country, but not for Yale (none / 0)

I go to school at Yale. I've met one guy outside my program who's a democrat and hates both Obama and Clinton.

And as we all know, as Yale students vote, so votes the nation.

Good God, these people didn't even have the good sense to go to school in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and now we're supposed to follow them when we vote?


by He Who Must Not Be Named on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:00:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For God and for country, but not for Yale (none / 0)

remember the game when Yale students passed out signs to Harvard fans during a football game and when prompted, those fans (on the Harvard side of the field) threw up the signs which read, "GO YALE!"?

Any non-sports fan can appreciate a good practical joke. Even those with the "bad sense" to go to Yale.


!
by alex100 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

The ticket will be Obama-Daschle


by rossinatl on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:38:21 AM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Thanks for this post.  I am one of the life-time Democrats who would now never be able to vote for Obama.

I originally assumed that, as always, I would vote for whomever the Democratic nominee was.  I have always done so and knew that most likely it would be either Hillary or Obama.  I was prepared to vote for either of these in November (though I actually was an Edwards supporter).

It is the subsequent actions of himself and his campaign, not to mention his policies to partially privatize social security and his health care plan, that have made the difference.  So it is not a decision that was foregone due to any silly reasons that his supporters loudly problaim, not was it a decision lightly made.  

I also think that the number of people, such as myself, who will actually carry through with the defection will go down in number.  I understand, because it will not be easy, and many may just opt to leave the spot open or do a write in or at the last minute decide to go for the nominee.  But whatever they chose to do in the privacy of their polling place should be absolutely respected.  All votes should be respected because the people came to that decision through their own best beliefs.

If such votes change the results of the election, so be it.  Chances that they will not.  But even if I knew that my one vote would change everything, I would not change the way I plan to vote.  It is a judgement based on hundreds of hours of reading and reasoning.

I will, of course vote Dem down-ticket all the way.  

The funny thing is that if he'd never had his stance to partially privatize social security and not played funny with the MI and FL votes, I would be able to hold my nose and vote for him.  Also, it's not enough that the Dem platform might say no partial privatization, and that the Dems might seat FL and MI.  It's what came from him that has made it impossible for me to vote for him.  

So for most of the potential defectors, it's not what a lot of Obama supporters think it is or suppose it is.  And yeah, I voted for Jesse Jackson in the primaries way back when, just so you know.  


by RobinLB on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:46:06 AM EST

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

I like coat hangers too.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I Met A Possible McCain Defector Today (none / 0)

Todd: Good diary. I am like your friend, but I am not too sure I'll make it back to the Democratic Party this year. I wish there were more people like you and less of some of the others I see on these boards and dKos.

Your point #1 is right on. I find that Obama supporters and indeed his campaign's tendency to see everything through a racial lens (of which incidentally they have not had much to say btw -- regardless of his grand speech the other day) very troubling. When one engages Obama supporters -- almost always their first line of defense seems to be based on what they assume about others' perceptions of or biases against their candidate's race. So much for being a 'post racial' candidate/campaign. But it is not just about the past for me -- can you imagine where this country will be when a President Obama has to engage Congress, big lobbying firms, special interests, the military -- and in fact anyone else that disagrees with him. I fear that an Obama presidency will NOT be about conversations and unity (consider how much has really happened since he gave his speech on race relations; has anything substantively changed?) or change. It will be about people cutting conversations off abruptly and being booted off bulletin boards, talk shows, committee staff and we'll be enveloped in a shroud of deep-doo-doo political correctness. I have not seen much evidence that persuades me that Obama and his supporters will be effective once they are in a position to govern.

#2 -- is not good enough. Why not call for a principled approach toward the MI and FL votes -- such as a revote? That I think will bring supporters of Clinton into the fold rather than not. Most Clinton supporters now view his nomination as illegitimate and his tactics as 'just another politician's' because of this issue alone. While effective as a campaign tactic -- you do not understand the damage it does to the Democratic Party brand to be seen as morally equivalent to Bush2000 in Florida. Besides, people vote for the top of the ticket, not for VP, and choosing a female candidate is pandering at this stage. Clinton's supporters are for her now, not for someone else that Obama chooses!

WRT> your #3 -- all I have is my vote. We'll all find out whether you are right come November, won't we? As to this issue being a club -- it really isn't. You either haven't voted or you have, and I do not believe that reports or polls about this number actually changes anyone's minds.

Last but not the least, you leave out a lot of other points besides experience (or lack thereof) that makes me turn away from Obama (rather than toward McCain). I think the Democratic party would do well to reflect upon that.


by BostonIndependent on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:10:18 AM EST


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