Clinton's new ad in NC and IN

I don't see much of a policy difference between Clinton and Obama usually, and in fact, if there is one that develops, it usually doesn't last long. Take Obama's remark that he'd raise the capital gains tax up to 28 percent. Once Clinton came out and said she'd raise it, but not that high, Obama retreated to saying he'd only raise it to 20 percent.

On the issue of energy though, Clinton has been trumping Obama. The most potent difference is that Clinton voted against the Cheney Energy bill, while Obama voted for it. That was used very effectively by Clinton in PA. And no doubt, McCain, who also voted against it, would also attack Obama from that angle over the issue. Obama has realized he's got a weakness on this front, and he's tried to take the initiative in defining his image on the issue.

Now the difference has extended to the gas tax holiday. It's the type of popular idea that Republicans continually cream progressives on with the working class. McCain came out for the typical Republican position of depleting tax revenue by having a 'gas tax holiday' and Obama came out against it, mocking the idea as a gimmick, by saying it would only save individuals $20 a month. First, by making the claim that this only saves individuals $20 bucks a month, Obama doesn't realize how out-of-touch and elitist that sounds to the average low-wage earner who would view it as their 'best day in weeks' to find a Jackson laying on the sidewalk. Second, when he was a state senator, in 2000, Obama voted for a six-month 5 percent gas tax holiday. That story ends with McCain having Obamaflakes for breakfast.

Clinton struck it down the middle, saying yes to the gas tax and that we are going to pay for it using the windfal profits of the oil companies. She's going up on the air with it against Obama in NC and IN:


Now, there is some hand-wringing done by some liberals over Clinton's proposal to "use the windfall profits of the oil companies to pay to suspend the gas tax this summer." To me it sounds like a good way to take off the table a popular idea and sync it with an equally popular idea, and maybe even make the tax code more progressive while we are at it.

The average liberal arguing rationally about this issue just does not get how powerful a political issue that gas prices are right now, and how damaging it is for Obama to be on the wrong side of the issue. This isn't a rational argument. I've long subscribed to  the Pollkatz Hypothesis spelled out finally by the professor:

The connection between gas prices and presidential approval is not (simply) that Bush is connected to Big Oil.  It's that the price of gasoline is just about the only Federal policy result non-wonks see and can relate to on a day-to-day basis.  Tax cuts?  Most people don't even know how much tax they pay.  War and defense?  Affects foreigners and National Guard families, not the rest of us.  But gasoline price displays, changing daily, hit people directly where they live.  And they blame Bush.  
Obama supporters shouldn't get too fixated on this either, as I've little doubt that he would vote for Clinton's proposal in the US Senate.



Display:


Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 7)

Please...vetoing something that would save Americans 20 bucks a month while costing us thousands of jobs along with our roads and calling it a gimmick isn't elitist or out of touch. We aren't exactly rubes here at the bottom of the income ladder. We recognize that gas has gone up in the last week what a repeal of that gas tax would be and will probably go up the same next week. This is our generation's version of "let them eat cake".

But by all means keep pushing that the 109 million dollar candidate is more in touch with regular Americans along with the husband of nearly billion dollar beer woman.


by wengler on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:52:33 AM EST

liked your logic so much (2.00 / 2)

vetoing something that would save Americans 20 bucks a month while costing us thousands of jobs along with our roads and calling it a gimmick isn't elitist or out of touch.

20 bucks a month =  our generation's version of "let them eat cake".

DITTO THIS



by dearreader on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:15:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My question (2.00 / 3)

If this site is an objective, decent source of information, why is it that the front page posts are based on political advertisements, and in fact,  replaying them for our benefit?

That said, I am glad there is finally discussion about this issue from a policy standpoint. The differences between the two candidates are stark.

The average American is changing their fundamental driving patterns - and the big oil companies are scared to death. They want americans to be driving down to the end of their block.

Follow the money..


by Trey Rentz on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gimmick (2.00 / 5)


Obama -  We're arguing over a gimmick that will save you half a tank of gas. It's not an idea to get you through the summer. It's an idea to get them through an election.

by dearreader on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (none / 0)

Please...vetoing something that would save Americans 20 bucks a month while costing us thousands of jobs along with our roads and calling it a gimmick isn't elitist or out of touch
How? Clinton says she pays for it by taxing oil company profits


by devil on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:54:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 3)

How indeed? The question is how does she get this bill passed? Impossible.  She has a better shot at the nomination than getting this bill through congress.

But, hey, she's in touch with people so that is what maters.


by swarty on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (none / 0)

I guess she'll do it the same way she convinces George Bush to sign it into law.


by rmx2630 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (none / 0)

Please.  As a former economist, I know that all cutting the gas tax will do is increase demand for oil, and cause the oil companies to increase their gas prices.  Whether you give the subsidy to the taxpayers or the oil companies (the statutory tax incidence), the economic incidence of the subsidy remains the same.  That's Public Finance 101.


by Brad G on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Demand increase (2.00 / 1)

None or very little.  Short-term demand for gas fuel is highly inelastic.  People need their gas, and 15 cents a gallon will rarely affect their purchasing decisions.  It takes time for people to significantly react to gas price changes because that really doesn't happen til they move or acquire more fuel-efficient transport in response.  A 3-month gas tax holiday will have an insignificant effect on gas demand.

That's the beauty of this proposal.  It's the ultimate wonk pander.  You get the absolute max political effect, because one thing Jerome is absolutely dead on the money on: gas prices are a HUGE political issue, the very biggest.  The pollsters just tend not to ask about it, because all the experts know the President can't really do anything about gas prices.  

And policy-wise, you lose nothing except lawmakers' time to enact it, because the policy will have virtually no effect on gas prices, gas demand, or anything else.  After three months it will poof! like a puff of smoke.

Really, this is a ninja strike.  Obama is wavering for the first time in the campaign, and . . . she . . . does . . . not . . . hesitate.  It's in for the kill, and politically this is a killer move.


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 3)

Gas tax 'holiday' is a terrible idea.

As an added snark:  Obama voting for Clinton's bill from the senate.

Priceless.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:56:07 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 12)

This is a truly terrible post, Jerome. I was hoping you would be above trying to defend Clinton's actions on this one, but I'm not at all surprised to see you trying. Not even Krugman is with her on this one, for Christ's sake.

Just about everyone who has taken anything beyond an introductory university course in macroeconomics has written an article saying what a horrendous idea a gas tax holiday truly is. The reasons are plentiful, and include:

(1) The gas tax holiday will not save the average gas consumer more than $28 over the entire period of its proposed duration
(2) The temporary decrease in price will cause a corresponding increase in demand, which will ultimately result in even higher prices for the good once the holiday is over
(3) Burning fossil fuels isn't good for the environment, remember? It's not something we want to be encouraging.
(4) Remember that national deficit? Perhaps we should be levying new taxes on oil companies, but  that's beside the point. Clinton's idea is still really stupid. While McCain would have us borrow more money from China to put in the hands of the OPEC nations, Clinton would just hold off on paying down that debt to China (and thus end up borrowing more) to put the same amount of money in their hands

So yeah, Jerome, Clinton's proposal is bad for gas prices, bad for the economy, bad for the environment, bad for the consumer, bad for the budget, and good for... OPEC? China?... and Clinton, if people really are as dumb as you and her campaign seem to think they are. She's getting a lot of pushback over this one. I would hope the truth wins out.

And I have faith it will... I was an intern for the Obama campaign in Iowa last summer, and you wouldn't believe the number of people who told me directly what a boondoggle they thought the ethanol industry really is. People aren't as stupid as you seem to think. They can grasp semi-complicated concepts if the media chooses to present them with the actual relevant information.


Never separate the life you live from the words you speak. -Sen. Paul Wellstone (Minnesota)
by Max Fletcher on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:57:57 AM EST

you may be right about the politics (2.00 / 4)

but I still think Clinton is wrong to advocate for a gas tax holiday, especially since her original comments adopted Republican frames about "tax relief" and Obama being out of touch with average folks.

I do agree that energy policy generally is one area where she has the edge over Obama. She should have done more to educate Iowans about the fact that she voted against the energy bill, while Obama voted for it.

I know environmentalists who caucused for Obama without realizing that he had voted for that bill.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:10:14 AM EST

Obama supporters generally think he is Green (none / 0)

while his lobbyist-written energy plan is as larded full of ethanol as the current administrations.

Clinton's adbvisors (The Center For American progress: Gene Sperling and Joseph Romm (Plan B 2.0) are much better, pro Common Good clean energy legislation.

That said, she made a huge blunder with this pandering. She knows better. Even if she had arranged to fund a "gasprice subsidy" not a gas "tax" reduction, it would have been better. And she should have stuck with funding it ONLY by slowing the Federal Reserve stockpile which is ridiculously high.

Of course its all just kabuki, as we all know nobody can get any clean energy bill past Little Boots veto pen.


by dotcommodity on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:29:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 7)

Disgraceful post, Jerome.  You are blatantly promoting triangulation, the very reason that most self described liberals are not supporting Hillary Clinton.  Max Fletcher, you pretty much nailed it perfectly.

This "gas tax holiday" is simply ridiculous.  If you suddenly get rid of the tax, the increased demand will immediately push the prices back to the original price, if not even higher.  Thus, consumers WILL NOT get any relief.  And since the prices will remain the same, this "holiday" essentially transfers the tax money, which currently pays for highway maintenance and countless public works jobs, straight to gas companies!!

So gas holiday = tax paid straight to gas companies instead of highway maintenance.

Jerome, the truly progressive response to an idiotic right wing policy proposal is not to support it because it's an election year and sounds appealing  to voters on the surface.  Americans are smart enough not to be fooled by silly titles like "holiday".  If presented a logical argument, they will get it.  The progressive response is to explain to the American people why the proposal is a terrible idea.  Obama is doing just that.


by kameyer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:32:03 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 7)

I would rather his decision be the un-popular/correct decision than politics as usual.

I would rather have a President that leads . . . than does what is 'cool' - HRC decided that she would go hang out with the:



NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:47:20 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 1)

A mildly ironic statement from a supporter of Barack "Present/All things to all people" Obama


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:13:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 3)

Our candidate is making the right call on a policy decision.

Your candidate is supporting McCain's incredibly unhelpful pander.

The "All things to all people" attak does not hold up very well in this context. Suggest switching to an Alegre-style "Obama is unelectable" rant.


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:29:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Or perhaps (2.00 / 1)

go on Fox News and bring up Bill Ayers, radical extremist from the 60's.

That should be good for another three day media event. If only Drudge will pick it up.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:07:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

You gotcha guys must have some kind of aversion to intellectual curiosity.  The "present" vote had everything to do with how things got done in the IL senate.  If you wanted to revise a bill, not kill it, you voted present, and if enough people did this, it went back to committee.  Even Rush Limbaugh got this fact.  Seriously.  Rush Limbaugh doesn't even use the line of argument you just did.  Progressive blogging FTW?  Not so much here, I guess.


John McCain isn't evil. He's just wrong about a lot of things. Vote Obama!
by proseandpromise on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:44:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 1)

And another mildly ironic statement from a supporter of Hillary "Yes to the Iraq War/Yes to Iranian Guard as a terror organization/Yes to a policy that obliterates millions of innocent people" Clinton.


by mikeplugh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

It still doesn't seem like a very comprehensive energy strategy does it?  What is Clinton or McCain's strategy after the summer?  Higher gas prices?  It isn't difficult to see who is out of touch here.


by jakedecker on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:57:21 AM EST

It is not being sold as comprehensive (2.00 / 1)

Both say it is a short term fix to an acute problem. And I think both acknowledge it is not perfect. Perfect can be the enemy of good.

The "let them eat cake" attitude by Obama is why he is losing rural voters and will now get less suburban support.  


by ineedalife on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is far from perfect or good... (2.00 / 1)

What is the acute problem being solved?

Gas prices are going to continue to rise and we'll remain dependent on foreign oil. This is election year pander politics that does nothing to address the core issues.


by Benstrader on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton Getting Best of Spin (1.25 / 4)

I am a die-hard Obama supporter, would not vote for Clinton if she somehow won, hate her tactics, her lies, her willingness to tear country apart for her own gain, but she is cleaning his clock on this new gas relief.  Barack has to do something too!


by bacalove on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:59:40 AM EST

Re: Clinton Getting Best of Spin (none / 0)

Egh, the last sentence moved it from an HR to TR.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:14:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Getting Best of Spin (2.00 / 1)

Bingo!  Say what you will, but "she cares about my daily life" theme is resonating, not in the halls of academia, but in working class America, where 18cents a gallon of gas drop overnight would change the reality, temporary as it would be, for a lot of hurting people.  Try worrying about the people, not supporting your candidate's position .... Geesh!


by PracticalMagic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:00:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome - did you fail math? (2.00 / 3)

Even if the price of gas goes down by the full amount of the tax cut - 18 cents/gallon - the savings won't be $20 a month unless you buy 111 gallons a month.

Do you?  Not many people drive 2000-3000 miles a month.

More likely - and again, this is the rosy scenario - people would save about $6-$10 a month.  Some saving more, some (and certainly most people who live in cities) saving less.

Moreover, that's the savings if the price of gas drops the entire amount of the tax cut, and there is zero reason to believe it will.  The oil companies won't cut prices 18 cents in the first instance - they'll want to capture some of the gain from the cut themselves.  So, let's say they drop the price 10 cents at first.  Then what happens when demand goes up?  I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure when demand for oil goes up, prices rise.  At least, that's how it's worked every year since I've been alive.

Net - the average savings will be something like $0-5 a month.

And there's a cost on the flip side. Those extra profits earned by the oil companies won't be available to resurface or build new roads - enjoy the potholes! - and fewer people will be hired for blue collar jobs on road crews.  Where's the sympathy for them?

Oh, I forgot - Hillary's plan is to make up the lost money by imposing a windfall profits tax to make up the lost revenue.  Assuming that could get done, doesn't that obliterate any possibility of reducing gas prices?  Why, exactly, are we are supposed to believe the oil companies wouldn't pass that along to consumers?

This is just snake oil - giving people false hope with false populism.  Congratulations for descending to the Republican level of economic policy.


by TL on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome - did you fail math? (2.00 / 2)

Here we go with math again ... it's not about the math, it's never about the math, it's about reversing the pessimism in the microeconomy of daily life, providing  hope that my President will care about ME and my problems, enabling change to that which is hurting ME & my family, and finally what's in it for the voters?

Hillary Clinton gets it, and Barack Obama, as decent and inspirational as he is,  does not.  And, slowly, but surely, the voters AND the superdelegates are beginning to realize it.

When voters look to our leaders for help, they want action, not rhetoric - and certainly not math!


by PracticalMagic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course it's not about the math (2.00 / 2)

It's about losing thousands of construction jobs.  It's about playing right into the oil companies' hands.  It's about starving our transportation department and ensuring that more bridges collapse.

You know, important stuff.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:30:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome - did you fail math? (2.00 / 1)

I believe in intellectual honesty.  If someone hands have been cut off I'm not to tell them "sure you can paint the Sistine Chapel" to make them feel better.

I hope that my President will fix real problems with real solutions and not pander to everyone and everything.

People that will vote for someone who gave them $20 worth of gas will vote for McCain if he offers them another "stimilus check".  Pandering does not make good policy.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:16:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait a second there... (2.00 / 1)

...before you dismiss "math" (like understanding how things add up is some elitist con game), please reflect on the fact that once you do a little math you see that this is NOT going to change what's hurting "me & my family," that because it doesn't provide much benefit to consumers in the best case scenario (~$28 over the whole period, according to a post above), and no benefit to consumers in the case that price simply rises because of increased demand, this is NOT a sign that HRC the candidate for president cares about our problems, it is a sign that she's willing to pull a cheap ruse in order to get a few votes off of the ILLUSION that she wants to do something for the average citizen.

"Action, not rhetoric," eh? Please take a moment to try to understand the underlying reality, and then revisit your apparent classification of HRC's support of this inane idea as "action" rather than  the disingenuous rhetoric that it really is.


by kydoc on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a second there... (none / 0)

First of all, the talking point of 28.00 does not consider the 3,000,000 truckers in this country, the 2,000,000 cab drivers in the country, and the countless other workers and businesses that depend on fuel for their livelihood.  Anyone that has taken a cab lately or flown in a plane knows they are putting a temporary surcharge on the cost to the consumer. And, a trucker who spends hundreds of dollars for a fill-up of a semi and other trucks, isn't laughing at the $28.00 figure Obama throws around. Belittling the pain that real people are feeling is beneath contempt.  Clinton has not ONLY proposed the gas tax reduction to help our economy. She has proposed a moratorium on home foreclosures.  She has proposed closing tax loopholes that allow companies easily to move production out of the country.  And a myriad of other proposals. What did Obama do or say? He voted for the Bush/Cheney energy bill; Clinton did not.  Oh, 'we have to change the way Washington works'.  Haven't you heard that same line time and time again? It comes up every 4 or 8 years. Real change takes hard work and requires tough choices. And, he downplays the effect a gas tax holiday would bring. I like Obama, he is my Senator, and I voted for him .. but I just don't see how he has the knowledge of Washington he needs to change it - just yet.  Clinton does. He is a risk, she is not.  And, McCain can start planning for assisted living in IMHO.  He's history.  


by PracticalMagic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:50:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that all we require of our candidates? (2.00 / 0)

The "math" in this case is measured in dollars and cents - as in, if this plan is adopted, American families won't get any real relief.

Are we only supposed to ask our candidates to sound like they care?

I do agree with you this far - some voters will be fooled - but if we want our politicians to offer real solutions to real problems we should hope that more of them won't.


by TL on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jerome - did you fail math? (2.00 / 0)

"Here we go with math again ... it's not about the math, it's never about the math, it's about reversing the pessimism in the microeconomy of daily life, providing  hope that my President will care about ME and my problems, enabling change to that which is hurting ME & my family, and finally what's in it for the voters?"

yeah, math is stupid. facts are stupid. telling people what they want to hear, even when you know what you're saying ain't happening, well, golly gee, that's LEADERSHIP.


by jbill on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 02:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You want to know about "math?" My (none / 0)

partner will drive 15 miles to save a penny a gallon. And when he gets there, the line is backed up for 2 blocks. You do the math!


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You want to know about "math?" My (none / 0)

Then your friend isn't very bright.

If you're not making this up and he truly drives 15 miles to save a penny then he is wasting more money in gas going to the gas station than he gains by saving that 1 cent/gallon.


by PSUdan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's my partner, and he is (none / 0)

extremely bright. But when it comes to gas, he doesn't always choose the most cost efficient path. I have pointed this out to him many times. And I imagine there are many more like him. When people say, "it's only $20.00", they underestimate what that means to a whole lot of people.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You want to know about "math?" My (none / 0)

So is your implication that the same people who can't use math to figure out that driving an extra 15 miles means spending ~$1.50 or more* to "save" $.15 will also believe that the gas holiday makes sense, and that HRC has their best interests at heart? You're probably right.

*(conservative estimate-if your partner's car gets 30 mpg, then 15 miles of driving =.5 gallon. If gas costs $3/gallon where you are [those were the days, right?] then your partner is spending $1.50 one way on the trip. So make that $3 if the station is really 15 miles out of the way, and s/he has to drive another extra 15 after filling up. If the tank holds 15 gallons, that's $.15 cheaper than the station with $.01 more expensive gas. So conservatively, every time your partner does this s/he is wasting between $1.35 and $2.85. Probably more, actually.)


by kydoc on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yep. I have done the math for him many (none / 0)

times, but it doesn't stop him. So as I said above, when people say, "it's only $20.00," they are underestimating what that means to a lot of people. I happen to think Hillary's plan is sound, IF, and that's a big if, it can be offset with a windfall profits tax.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:42:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Getting Best of Spin (2.00 / 3)

So the purpose of campaigning is painting a rosy picture for people by distorting the benefit of something in order to make them feel happy? I thought we wanted more out of our leaders. Maybe, we want them to tell us the truth in all of its complexity. "Working class America" can handle this, and the suggestion that they would jump at the chance to save $10 over the summer at the expense of their roads, bridges, and 300,000 jobs is silly.


by mikeplugh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Getting Best of Spin (none / 0)

you just don't get it ... what does "change we can believe in" mean? isn't that "painting a rosy picture" to inspire and make them feel happy, which would manifest itself into votes? Instead of the esoteric "change the politics as usual" theoretical issue, what actions has he suggested? you can't put food on the table with rhetoric, inspiration, or theory - you need hard, concrete actions that translate into tangible benefits for the average American. Unfortunately, Obama doesn't get it.  BTW - 18cents a gallon isn't the only proposal coming from Hillary Clinton.  Taken together, all the proposals (that she also provides for how they are paid for)are a solid, logical, useful block of proposals to bring immediate relief to hurting people.  She gets it, he doesn't ... Go Hillary ...


by PracticalMagic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:44:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

fixed that for ya (none / 0)

- "you need hard, concrete actions that translate into tangible benefits for the average American. Unfortunately, Clinton doesn't get it."

Do you read the threads? How do think the gas tax holiday translates into "tangible benifits for the average American?" And how is her verbal support of this "hard, concrete actions?"

In case you're stuck on that last question, I'll help: it isn't concrete action. It's hollow pandering.


by kydoc on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fixed that for ya (none / 0)

Well, if you pick up on just the Obama talking points, sure.  But, don't forget there are a few things that the President can do all by him/herself to change the dynamic somewhat for oil. Stopping the flow of oil into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve is one.  Only Hillary Clinton has proposed that.  Releasing some oil to help stabilize the market is another suggestion the President can again do all by him/herself. President Bill Clinton did that himself as well.  The argument over the tax holiday is silly. Removing the gas tax is only temporary, and only helps those most hurting, but apparently, Obama doesn't care about them anymore than he seems to care about FL or OH voters, based on his letter memo to superdelegates. Energy policy is not a short term solution, but Obama offers NO short term relief.  They all have long-term plans. Why doesn't he want to help the little people?  Is he too elitist to care?


by PracticalMagic on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:01:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sometimes I get cranky (none / 0)

I think you're wrong about it helping the most hurting, because I tend to believe the several economists who predict that increased demand would drive the price up and negate the difference, even for the independent truckers paying for their own gas. And I tend to agree with those who think that that the windfall profits tax is probably a non-starter and therefore HRC is pandering on that point.

With that said, I'd like to apologize. In a couple of comments on this thread I took a smart-ass tone with you that I now regret. I get carried away. The comparatively reasonable tone you took in your replies helped snap me out of it.

I can't emphasize how strongly I disagree with you about that "too elitist to care" line, though. I think that's pure smear, propagating the same way that it has when used against other democrats in the past. He is easily the least privileged of the three current candidates, the least 'establishment' of the three, and I believe that by refusing to pander about issues like the gas tax he's demonstrating that he does care about the (in your term) "little people," that he respects us all enough not to back an ultimately harmful policy just to use us for some cheap political points.


by kydoc on Fri May 02, 2008 at 02:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Getting Best of Spin (2.00 / 1)

But this would mean that Clinton is appealing to voters who cling to their pick up trucks, and then vote against their own economic self interests.

She wouldn't. Oh, nevermind.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:48:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Root causes (2.00 / 3)

This is why nothing ever changes. Soundbytes, photo ops and pandering instead of policy. There are 2 components to skyrocketing energy prices:

1. Supply and Demand
2. Speculation and manipulation

The first problem can only be solved by cost effective alternatives to dependence on oil. The second was enabled by the deregulation pushed by both the Bush and the Clinton administrations. Reasonable oversight and regulation must be re-established in financial, commodity and equity markets as a first order of business to unwind the dangerous bubble machine distorting the economy.

Instead we have a 'plan' that like 'mission accomplished' plays well in the press and actually  has the opposite effect of what is needed. Real leadership.


by hankg on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:15:33 AM EST

Re: Root causes (2.00 / 1)

Add to your number 2 that oil is being propped up as a hedge against the weak US dollar. Demand for oil(to use it) is going up in the world but at a much slower trend than has been reflected in our gas prices.

Oil barrels just became the international currency with a guaranteed return.

From a national defense posture this country should probably transition to electric powered cars with the electricity fueled by coal plants. We still have coal in this country and the consequence will be more environmental devastation and choked smoggy air.

I'm waiting for Straight Talk to talk about this but he is too busy trying to create an even worse healthcare system than we have now.


by wengler on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Root causes (2.00 / 2)

Which is Exactly what Obama said in San Fran.

What the hell is wrong with electing a guy in a suit, who is a Harvard grad who understands constitutional law. Oh the horrors.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:50:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Root causes (none / 0)

Clinton never said that this ends all energy problems. It is a short term relief as everyone knows. Her energy plan (which Obama copied) takes into account the larger energy crisis that we have. Obama does not have any short-term plan as of now.


by devil on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Root causes (2.00 / 1)

This is not a short term 'plan'. It's not a plan at all, it is just a cynical political maneuver that heads us in the opposite direction of where we need to go.

We have to undo the damage done by Clinton and Bushes deregulation by reinstating resonable regulation.

Any money raised by a wind fall profit tax should go to addressing real solutions like being applied to alternative energy investment tax credits and research.


by hankg on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Root causes (2.00 / 1)

I'd add one more thing. Having gotten a tax holiday the Republicans will immediately start calling to make it permanent leaving Hillary in the position of being for an increase in gas prices once her stunt is over.


by hankg on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Root causes (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.  Some Republican will call for making it permanent and every time a democrat votes against it they will be hit with a campaign add about how "Rep. So and So voted to raise the gas tax 17 times while a gallon was at a record high"

Considering how badly Clinton supporters fear GOP attacks you would think they would grasp that concept.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup (2.00 / 1)

Lawrence O'Donnell was talking yesterday about how hard it was to get the most recent federal gas tax passed. Five cents per gallon. It was part of Clinton's '93 tax/fiscal package.


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 5)

"Obama came out against it, mocking the idea as a gimmick, by saying it would only save individuals $20 a month".

What Obama actually said was "This is an idea that, when all is said and done, will save you - at most - half a tank of gas over the course of the entire summer. That's about $28. It's an idea that some economists think might actually raise gas prices. And without a plan to pay for it right away, it means that the money would come directly out of the fund we use to pay for construction projects, which could cost the state of North Carolina up to 7,000 jobs".

Hillary has already lost the nomination - she can't even win it by her supporters spreading untruths about Obama.

Don't give McCain a 'get out of jail free' card when he comes up with bad ideas. Cut his hand off, not the hand of the person who will be running against him in the general election.


by My Ob on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:17:31 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

You mean Jerome mischaracterized Obama's statement, possibly misinforming readers of his site?  Impossible!



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 1)

In an ideal world, I'd like to see gas taxes increased dramatically to discourage consumption, with other taxes lowered as compensation. However, I agree with Jerome here--rather than simply oppose the removal of the gas tax, and hand the Republicans a weapon against us, let's combine it with another way of getting the revenue by socking it to the oil companies. The end result may not leave us any better off than we are now, but we also won't be any worse off and we're much more likely to have a Democrat in the White House rather than ceding an emotionally powerful issue to the Republicans.


by markjay on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:25:35 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 2)

It's funny that some Hillary supporters seem to think that the vast majority of Americans are so stupid to comprehend that this doesn't help them that fear compels them to take the Republican position.

In exit polling, people have said in double digits that they didn't vote for Obama cause he was black or because he was a Muslim. And yet he has more confidence in the majority of the American people to see this as the gimmick it is than Hillary or McCain. Strange that.


by wengler on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:37:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 5)

Remember when Jerome's posts were credible and thoughtful? That was cool.


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:26:08 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

I remember. I just haven't read one in a while. It's sad to me to see the co-author of a book advocating the 50 state strategy, propping up a candidate who is so dismissive of so many of them. The gas tax holiday is ludicrous. It will only increase demand and raise prices long term. And it assumes the american voter is too stupid to understand that. Really. Are we no better than the republicans? I'm used to MYDD front pagers quoting Krugman in their support of Hillary. So Jerome, would you like to enlighten us on Krugman's position on the gas tax?

No? Didn't think so.


by jadegirl on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 3)

Pretty disgusting post by Jerome. This is his idea of "progressive"?

Putting his stamp of approval on the typical "throw them a bone and they'll shutup long enough to vote for you" idiocy like Bush's tax "rebates".

Yeah, Obama's really an "elitist" to call this exactly what it is - a sham for low-information idiots.


by edmandspath on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (none / 0)

This comment apparently triggered a warning from Jerome about being "uncivil".


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

Seriously, what is going on here?

We have supposedly liberal bloggers and smart liberals agreeing that it's a good thing to remove billions of dollars that would go towards infrastructure of roads, that it's a good thing that jobs will be lost, and it's a good thing that oil companies will make even greater profits.

It's nothing more than blatant pandering towards low information voters.

I give a lot of Clinton supporters credit - they are calling her out on this.

It's a shame, though, that Jerome believes that playing politics is more important than doing what's right.


by PSUdan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:39:16 AM EST

Evan Bayh voted for that imperfect energy bill (2.00 / 4)

also, on the strength of its alternative energy provisions, as did Obama.

Hillary is in no credible position to impugn colleagues for making difficult choices and voting for imperfect bills.

For this reason among others cited in above comments, your post is disingenuous and transparently specious.


by Bee on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:44:36 AM EST

The bill was going to pass anyway (2.00 / 2)

and at least it had some help for alternative energy.

And Clinton voted for the war.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:12:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What? No mention of Krugman? (2.00 / 3)

Funny, that...


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:46:55 AM EST

Re: What? No mention of Krugman? (2.00 / 3)

Silly Bob.

Krugman only gets quoted as the all-knowing expert ONLY when he supports Clinton.

What, you were born yesterday?


by edmandspath on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:47:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

this is what happens when u think power is at hand (2.00 / 2)

All pretenses of objectivity and rationality goes out of the window.
 
by highgrade on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:49:09 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 2)

so Hillary is really against a bill the same as Obama but instead of taking the principled stand and saying this is a bad idea,

she offers a proposal she KNOW won't pass so she can say well I am for it but they didn't pass the windfall tax (which I knew they wouldn't) so now I am against the gas tax holiday?

and you expect smart democrats to give her credit for this pander?

she is playing the American voters for idiots and we should stand up and give her an applause?


Obama said, as Bill beamed. "Thank you, President Clinton."
by TruthMatters on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:56:39 AM EST

Clinton and McCain on the same page? (2.00 / 1)

Gas tax holiday is pure pandering. But sadly it works.

Why isn't the RNC going after Clinton with their ads? Have they already decided that Obama is the nominee? Or what?


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:57:37 AM EST

Jerome, is 'liberal' now a dirty word here? (2.00 / 2)

The way it used in your post makes me think it is. What are you? "Conservative?"

By the way, a couple of new articles for your perusal:

Obama may win Hill superdelegate fight

Capitol Hill insiders say the battle for congressional superdelegates is over, and one Senate supporter of Barack Obama is hinting strongly that he has prevailed over Hillary Rodham Clinton.

GOP gives Clinton the silent treatment

From top to bottom, from McCain down to the youthful campaign and party staffers who work nearly around the clock to get him elected, the working assumption seems to be that the Democratic contest is over and Obama has won.

Even when Clinton attacks McCain, President Bush or GOP policies, the response is either outright silence or snarky, dismissive ridicule about a failed campaign barely relevant enough to merit a response.

One thing about the Republicans... They're much better at math than many here.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:03:43 AM EST

If it is the economy stupid (2.00 / 2)

Obama should go after Clinton for having the audacity to suggest that Alan Greenspan (Mr. 1% interest rate)  would advise her on the economy.

The best way to get oil down is to strengthen the dollar, by stopping these cheap interest rates, and investing in alternative energy solutions as a boon to the economy.

The list of economic eggheads that support Obama is pretty impressive.

Clinton's plans are always about more govt programs and more govt mandates. A true progressive understands that the days govt mandates are not always the best answer. People don't like being forced into mandates.

Obama's plans are much more free market oriented.

Economists that support Obama:

 Joseph Stiglitz: He links our presents woes to the Iraq War spending.

Paul Volker: He understands stagflation

Edmund Phelps: Obama has new ideas and is not connected to old money.

Economists that support Clinton: Alan Greenspan, the architect of the sup-prime mortgage crises and the tech bubble.

We report you decide.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

key here (none / 0)

is "congressional superdelegates"--that still leaves over 300 uncommitted.  Careful what you read--esp. from Republicans.


by desert dawg on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Liberal is not a dirty word (2.00 / 1)

but elitist out of touch liberal is a bad phrase.  I thought most Dean supporters understood that.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:28:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, the 'gas tax holiday' is genius. (2.00 / 1)

Clinton copies McCain's inanity.

Here's the #1, top headline on Reuters right now:

Clinton-McCain gas tax holiday slammed as bad idea

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A gas tax holiday proposed by U.S. presidential hopefuls John McCain and Hillary Clinton is viewed as a bad idea by many economists and has drawn unexpected support for Clinton rival Barack Obama, who also is opposed.


by Bob Johnson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New Clinton Ad (2.00 / 1)

"I'll give you $20 if you vote for me"

My name is Hillary Clinton, and I approved this pander.


by edmandspath on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's funny (none / 0)

You oughta copyright it before Amy Poehler steals it.

I'd give you mojo, but I'm an Obama supporters, so of course....


by BlueinColorado on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Liberal is not a dirty word (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, that is a bad phrase. I wish supposedly progressive democrats would stop slandering our '08 nominee with it.


by kydoc on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jerome - defend Obliterating Iran why don't you (2.00 / 3)

Jeez, Jerome,

Even Krugman saw through what a crick of crap Hillary's pander fest on the gas tax is.

Next up: Jerome explains to us all how Obliterating Iran is good for America.

C'mon, you support every single position of hers. Defend that one too.


by swarty on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:05:09 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (none / 0)

So letme get this right, suspending the gas tax is purely political, and will do nothing to really help Americans.
Yup.
Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:07:54 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 2)

Yes.

Economically, we can expect, AT BEST, half of the gas-tax-refund to trickle down to the consumer. Over the course of the "holiday", that's a few dozen bucks, tops. Meanwhile, when the holiday ends, we're right back where we started, only we've sacrificed a ton of money (thereby growing the debt that my generation has to pay off) for a senseless political pander that does absolutely nothing to solve our underlying problems.

In conclusion,
F*CK
THE
GAS
TAX
HOLIDAY


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not to mention... (2.00 / 1)

...you've probably had to pay for an alignment because the roads are in such bad shape.  The repair shops might love this idea, but I'm not sure about the rest of us.


by KTinOhio on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:08:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

This is amazing. Nearly unanimous declaration here (so far) that not only is this a bad idea, it is craven politics.

Jerome, you fail to acknowledge a simple fact -- that "gas tax" goes to keeping our roads under our feet, our bridges over the water, our infrastructure still standing.

When someone dies because the billions the "holiday" will "save" come directly from the agencies that keep our country moving -- what'll be preposed then?


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:18:35 AM EST

Hang in there, Jerome (2.00 / 1)

This is still one of the few blogs on the net providing safe haven from OFB syndrome.

I read somewhere that gas prices during Bush's presidency moved in lockstep with his popularity.  You can debate economic theory and it's ensuing "chaos" (we're talking the summer months here, guys!), or you can focus on what is dumbass politics or not.


by desert dawg on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hang in there, Jerome (2.00 / 1)

Sure. We're talking summer months.

But when gas prices fail to go down -- or start rising in the fall in anticipation of the winter, will the tax come back? Who will call for that.

This is shooting yourself in the face when trying to merely shoot yourself in the foot.

Bad politics, bad policy, and it's one more example why Clinton DOES. NOT. GET. IT.

We keep punishing Obama for speaking to us like adults; the same thing was done to Bill. Remember his 1993 Budget? The dems fought him on it. It passed by one vote. It raised taxes and...

...how much prosperity followed? Not all of it was from his budget, but enough was. Don't believe it? Look what happened once Bush took over. Not all of the economic problems since were from Bush's budget, but enough was.

We have one candidate (McCain) who would continue to sell the kids down the river for short term gain. We have another (Clinton) who would do the same for short term political gain. And one who rightly says "dumb ideas lead to dumb results."

This is as close to a no-brainer as you get. I'm happy to call Obama on his bad policies (his health care plan ain't perfect after all) but you have to be scalp-deep in Clinton(tm) Brand Brain Candy to call a gas tax "holiday" (let's call it what it is: an "infrastructure fast") good policy.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 2)

It's all about winning at all costs, principles be damned.  The Clintons are all about win first, clean up hwatever mess is left afterwards. Makes for short term majorities.

Really, if the kool-aid metaphor has a poster child, Jerome supporting this would be it. Jerome has become enamored of the tactics, not the policies.

On June 3rd, it will be time to either get in line, or come out in support of McCain.


by swarty on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 4)

Wow, that was an idiotic post Jerome.  Just because Hillary does something doesn't mean you have to trip over yourself trying to justify it.  Take for instance, Obama's appearance on Fox News that you roundly criticized, you might note that a good number of Obama supporters (mostly notably Kos also joined you in your condemnation).  You're not repaying the favor of intellectual honesty though, between this shrilling for the "gas tax holiday" and you're refusal to comment on Hillary's decision to go on O'Reilly, you're losing what little credibility you once had.  


by Trinhmaster on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:41:51 AM EST

Ah. Pandering is Good. (2.00 / 2)

Krugman and other economists say it's stupid and that the gas prices will shoot right back up.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:43:22 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 2)

"First, by making the claim that this only saves individuals $20 bucks a month, Obama doesn't realize how out-of-touch and elitist that sounds to the average low-wage earner who would view it as their 'best day in weeks' to find a Jackson laying on the sidewalk."

That's the most out of touch and elitist take I've seen in weeks. How condescending. Jerome, you actually envision in your mind a bunch of "low-wage earners" walking down the street and finding a $20 on the sidewalk, proclaiming, "Duh, this is the best day I've had in weeks. Guh-huh!"

People are smarter than you are giving them credit. If someone explains their reasons for choosing a certain path, and those reasons uncover hidden problems behind the initial benefit, people appreciate it. They like the idea that someone is cutting through the marketing to show what's behind it.

What hasn't been said yet, is that the Clinton plan is half right. The profits from the oil companies should be heavily taxed, but rather than a superficial gas tax holiday, that money should be used to create green jobs that put people to work and give them "their best day in weeks."


by mikeplugh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:43:27 AM EST

Re: Clinton's new ad in NC and IN (2.00 / 2)

so jerome would rather have clinton play good politics than have a sound policy decision, i thought she was supposed to be a policy wonk...the gas tax has been heavily criticized by pretty much any one who knows economics (see krugman and todays thomas friedman piece in the times)


by aaaa05 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:50:07 AM EST

Shameful, you know better (2.00 / 4)

Jerome, you know as well as I do that no "oil company windfall tax" will fly as long as George Bush has access to a red pen.  Even should it pass, the oil companies are completely in collusion with one another and would assuredly simply raise the price of gas.

Lowering gas taxes deprives large amounts of money from the repair of the nation's infrastructure, which is already in sore distress.  In my own city, people died when one of our interstate bridges collapsed.  A trucker sacrificed his life by swerving away from a bus full of children when they plummeted into the river below.  Real heroes, mostly injured themselves, arose and evacuated the bus.  Did these heroes do it for the credit?  No, they mostly denied interviews because "anyone would do the same."

These are the people that really deserve credit.  Out-of-touch politicians like McCain and Clinton think that the common man would sell out the safety of our children and our children's childrens for enough money to take the family out to the movies... once.

People are willing to make sacrifices, if only they are asked.  Are you willing to sacrifice your blind loyalty to a professional panderer to be in the right?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:55:32 AM EST

Pay No Heed Jerome (none / 0)

Holy moly, the Obamans are out in full force this morning Jerome.  

Don't pay no heed Jerome - the Army of Obama is a tough crowd, but you're RIGHT ON with your main thrust.  Repubs have beaten us bloody with respect to the Reagan democrats and working class where pocketbook issues and liberal taxation have creamed us in the past.  

She won't let them this time.  Clinton ever the meticulous planner differentiates herself from McSame by responsibly paying for the summer hiatus by taking it from the nasty oil companies. . .

Clinton is taking this issue and really running against McCain not Obama.  

Obama is only in mind to the extent that he's so out of touch with middle America . . . that he successfully marginalizes himself on this issue. . . as the standard tax-loving liberal. . . Right or Wrong that's whats happening.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:00:40 AM EST

Re: Pay No Heed Jerome (2.00 / 2)

Your comment shows why the Clintonian obsession with Obama, and Obama supporters, is simply a distraction from the fact that this policy is bad. It also doesn't take into account that the oil company taxes that she's proposing would never pass with Bush in the White House.

It's stupid to attach this issue to Obama being out of touch with middle America since his comments show that he understands the problems with this idea WITH RESPECT TO middle America. Have your gas tax holiday, watch the bridges collapse, and see people line up at the unemployment line.

As for the "tax-loving liberal" line, what a surprise that the triangulation with Republicans has Clinton supporters spewing GOP talking points. It's a sad day for Democrats.


by mikeplugh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If HRC wants to make an ad about this... (2.00 / 1)

...she should film it on top of the wreckage of the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis.  It's not a good idea to skimp on maintenance for the sake of a meager short-term gain.


by KTinOhio on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If HRC wants to make an ad about this... (2.00 / 1)

Winner


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just Obama supporters (2.00 / 2)

Take a look: Clinton supporters are against this, too.  That's because it's a Republican position.

Clinton's oil company windfall tax would never work... even if it passed, costs would not go down.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:58:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pay No Heed Jerome (2.00 / 2)

"Holy moly, the Obamans are out in full force this morning Jerome."

Yeah. You can ignore the criticism because it's all coming from insane cultists.

Like Krugman.


Unable to rec or rate
Still supporting Obama
Still not putting up with "preening" posts
by jaiwithani on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pay No Heed Jerome (2.00 / 1)

Wait... How is following McCain's lead considered "running against McCain?"

Say what you will about him and his supporters, Obama is the Democratic candidate who is directly contradicting McCain on this issue, not Clinton. In fact, Jerome is arguing that we should follow the McCain plan.


by not Brit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:52:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pay No Heed Jerome (none / 0)

Hillary demonstrates her FISCAL responsibility by paying for the tax hiatus from OIL company profits . . .

. . . drawing a clear and distinct contrast from McSame, who takes the money from your local bridge rehab.

. . . Obama's position already discarded by middle America having marginalizing himself on the issue.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:09:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pay No Heed Jerome (2.00 / 1)

No, Obama's position is discarded by Republicans and obsessed Clinton supporters.

Clinton's "FISCAL" responsibility won't pass muster; Bush will veto any extra tax on the oil companies.  That's his job.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:34:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]