Racism On This Site

A year or so ago, this was a great place to come to catch up on the news. I came here, to Daily Kos, and a few others like the Poorman, Talking Points Memo and Sadly No, every day.

A year ago, posters were already touting their candidates, but it seemed fairly neighborly. No more. Now, the only reason I really come here is to see how bad things have become.

This place has become a haven for brooding, bitter Clinton supporters who will find something perfectly innocent that Obama, or someone on his campaign did, and twist it until they can find something, anything--however small, however unremarkable--to be outraged about.

Just yesterday, I saw a post in which the writer was outraged! that David Axelrod went on some Sunday morning talk show and didn't badmouth Bill Clinton. Why was that so bad, you might ask? Well, because Axelrod no doubt said harsher things about Clinton, so that made him a hypocrite.

We have reached the stage at which Clinton supporters here are now livid that an Obama staffer went on television and did not excoriate Bill Clinton. How dare he be civil!

Well, that kind of thing, sad as it may be, is not why I'm writing this. As I said, I have been coming here lately just to read that kind of thing. I find it sad and pitiful, and though I feel kind of guilty for doing it, I can't help but gawk at the over the top manufactured rage. It's like watching a really, really bad movie, like Manos the Hands of Fate. As bad as it is, you can't look away. Sometimes you even have to watch it again, it's so bad.

So as I said, these rage diaries are sad, but ultimately harmless, as far as I can see. But there's something else here now, something far worse. Looking back, I can see now there have been hints of it now and again, but it is only in the last few days that I have really seen it for what it is, and that is the rawest, ugliest bigotry.

Yesterday, there was an execrable screed lamenting Obama's rise and blaming it on affirmative action. I'm sure the writer would object that he (or she) is not a racist, that he was only pointing out Obama's obvious flaws and how cynically he has turned his blackness to his advantage to steal the nomination from a much more highly qualified contender who happened to suffer from the awful disadvantage of having grown up with nearly every conceivable advantage.

And, to be sure, if one works hard enough, one could read the diary as the writing of a concientious Democrat, worried about losing in the fall with a flawed candidate who won unfairly. One could read it that way, but it takes a lot of work to overlook the obvious, so the only reasonable way I see to read it is that the writer is a bigot, or at least has an awful lot tof hostility toward black people.

Now to get this out of the way, I am a white guy, fairly well off, I went to a good college, and I even have a master's degree. I'm not some craaaazy-ass militant black dude who's seething with resentment at the way the Man has kept me down, so don't go off and think I'm only seeing this because I have a chip on my shoulder and that slavery has been gone for 143 years and Jim Crow has been gone for 40-odd years, so I should just shut the fuck up and stop whining and pull myself up by my bootstraps.

No, I'm a well off, well schooled white guy who has had every conceivable advantage in this country, and I'm seething with resentment that most black people don't get the chances I've gotten in this country, not because they're dumber than I am, not because they're lazier than I am, but because life in this country is so badly stacked against them. Yes, I know that there is no longer slavery or segregation in this country (see above), but discrimination lingers. And it's harder to fight now, because it's so much harder to see.

It's so hard to see, as it happens, that most white people never see it it all, so when they hear some black person like Jeremiah Wright going on about how unjust this country can be, even today, they just write him off as some angry, bitter radical black America hater. But he isn't. Did you know that the guy volunteered to go fight in Korea? Well, he did. He fought for his country, and then, like so many black soldiers in so many wars, he came back home and the country he fought for treated him like shit. So, yes, I guess he well might be a little bitter.

And he has every right to be bitter. We all should be. This country could have done so much better. And we still can do so much better. Now things are without question better now than they were in 1955 or 1965. I don't think you'd get any argument about that from Wright. I know you wouldn't get any from Obama. But we aren't where we should be. The truth is, we never will be where we ought to be; this is life, and we live on Earth, where things are never perfect, and I don't think anybody ever expects to turn the U.S. into Utopia. But if we can't make the U.S. into Utopia, we can at least keep prodding ourselves in the right direction, and that's what Wright is trying to do. You may not think he's going about it the right way; indeed, he may well not be going about it the right way. I don't know. But he's trying.

And that brings me to Barack Obama, who is also trying to make the country better. I'm not a big fan of his; I think he's better than Clinton, but he was no higher than my third choice, behind Edwards and Dodd. But now he's the presumptive nominee, and he may well end up being a great president.

But to get where he is, he had the gall to beat Hillary Clinton, and that really angered a lot of people who thought she deserved or had earned the nomination. As I said, some people here seem content to bash Obama without bringing up his race. But there are a few who seem to take Obama as an "uppity Negro", or at least that's how it comes across to me. I don't know how else to read it other than that they think that Obama's just a presumtuous and ungrateful black guy who wasn't content to stay in his place, and instead had the effrontery not just to run for president and have a shot at winning.

I mean Jesse jackson and Al Sharpton and Alan Keyes all ran, but we all knew they were going nowhere so that was different, right? It was kind of cute watching those black fellas taking themselves so seriously and acting just like their betters. There was no threat there, right? It was all O.K., it was just a sideshow.

But now we have a guy who doesn't know his place, and he's leading for the nomination, and I think it's brought a lot of latent racism out into the open. I've read some stuff here that if I hadn't known better, I would have thought had come from the KKK website, if there is such a thing. It could have come from Jesse Helms or from Strom Thurmond way back in 1948.

It doesn't belong here. It's not how Democrats should be thinking. I can see it coming from Republicans, but we Democrats can and should be so much better than that. And it sickens me that in 2008, there are still people who call themselves Democrats who think that Barack Obama is just the lucky recipient of affirmative action. After all, he lucky to be a black guy, right? Black people have all the advantages in America today, don't they? I mean, they're, what, 90% of the U.S. Congress. They control all the biggest businesses in the country. Am I right?

Of course not. We have a long and shabby history  in this country when it comes to race. We have a long way to go. It says a lot that Barack Obama is likely to be the next U.S. president. But he isn't where he is because he had unfair advantages all his life; he's where he is because he's smart as hell and he worked his ass off. And if he messed up Hillary Clinton's plans, well, then that's just too bad for her, but he ran the good campaign and she ran the lousy one. She has no one to blame but herself. And her backers have no right to say that Obama did anything wrong or took unfair advantage or that he cheated somehow because he didn't. And they sure don't have any right to say he got where he is because he was just "lucky" to be black. Anybody who says otherwise should go to Red State, where they'll fit in just fine.

Here's an update: I would like to thank everyone who has read this, and even more to those who have recommended it. I don't doubt that there are others who could have put it better--more eloquently, more logically and so on--but I didn't see any diaries about it so I wrote this myself. I really do hope against hope that it might end up on the recommended list, not because It's such a well written piece, but because I think it's something we all need to think about here.

Another update: I would like to thank all the people here who have r ead this and have written in about it, even those of you I think are dead wrong. I would also like to thank the 20 or so who have recommended this diary, and would like to ask others to recommend it as well. I don't know how many recommendations it takes to get on the list, but I think this is important. Now without a doubt there are others who could have done this better, and if anybody else would like to do another diary about this, then by all means have at it. But as this is so far the only one (as far as I know) I would ask that we try to get as many eyes to see it as can be. Thank you.

Yet another update: I just saw that this made the recommended list. I had kind of hoped it would, but I didn't really think it would. I want to thank all of you who have read this, written something here or recommended this. I think this is something we liberals and Democrats should be thinking about. Maybe we can make things a little better, bit by bit... And I would especially like to thank whoever added the "holier than thou ranting" tag. I mean that sincerely; it's easy for us to get caught up in thinking that we're always on the side of right and anybody who dares to see things another way is not just wrong but evil as well. Also it was funny...

Last update (so I believe): Anybody who doesn't think there is a nasty undercurrent of racism at this site should take a little stroll through the hidden comments. If you can read some of that stuff and seriously claim it isn't racist, then I don't know what to tell you and I'm not going to try to convince you. But I'll sure think a lot less of you...



Display:


Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 8)

eh I have lost what little faith I have in the average American, we get outraged that someone like Wright isn't patriotic enough?

but 15% of voters in PA can't vote for Obama because his skin is the wrong color!?

and people excuse it too, well we are better off then any other country, well gee I am glad our definition of success is to not be as bad as countries like Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or South Africa. just because we are better then other crappy countries doesn't mean we aren't still crap in that case damn you Wright, you don't appreciate what America has done for you.

I bet those 15% don't get their patriotism questioned, I bet there is no outrage at 15% still saying a man's skin color determines his worth.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:43:20 AM EST

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 5)

Thank you for the recommendation. My first diary, and already recommended, at least by one reader...


ооо
by Mumphrey on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Democrats acting like trash, (2.00 / 1)

the disturbing spectacle this cycle.  A real eye opener.
This hideous Punch and Judy show should end May 7th if there any sense left in this benighted country.
by ReillyDiefenbach on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Truth in Numbers (none / 0)

If you look at the traffic on this site you see a sliver compared to other sites.  Hmmmm wonder why?  Given Hillary enjoys almost as much support as Obama one would wonder why the traffic wouldn't be as strong as pro-Obama sites.  I hate to compare it to DailyKos but Kos has a good cross section of posts.  Many pure Obama and yet, many talking issues which relate to all.  Plus, here you have diarists who clearly are taking their talking points from Hillary's campaign - directly.  Lastly, you have the same diarists on the rec page every day.  No depth.  Sometimes you have the same diarist three times over on the same rec list.  Proof will be in site's survival when Hillary loses.  You would think they would mature.  No we will be hearing the same cranky banter about Wright, flag pins, weathermen, etc.  If that is the best they can do, they are defining themselves as shrill losers.


by SovSov on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 06:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you don't support Obama you're Racist (none / 0)

This is what Andrea Mitchell said today on MSNBC, and CNN has also been repeating this over and over.
Obama lost in PA because of racism.
That word has been totally abused by Obama droids.
by internetstar on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't see Hidden Comments, but am betting (none / 0)

Obama Trolls are merrily pumping this stuff out.


by internetstar on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 2)

I'm not some craaaazy-ass militant black dude who's seething with resentment at the way the Man has kept me down, so don't go off and think I'm only seeing this because I have a chip on my shoulder [...]

OK, I don't get it - I find this kind of stereotype image offensive, and if you're carrying that around, um, that's something to ask yourself why, not other people.  

I don't like the tactic of putting that out there and other offensive ideas as well, such as calling someone "uppity," and then saying "Hey, don't you think this!"  Well, I'm not thinking that - you are.  


by daria g on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (1.33 / 3)

I was just going to say the same thing.  I found this and other statements very offensive as well.

I'd suggest the diarist look in the mirror.

And stop projecting onto Bill and Hillary.


by Larissa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 2)

Mayor McCheese, can you please explain why you rated me 0?  I agreed with daria g, who you rated a 2.  I essentially said exactly the same thing she said (albeit less eloquently.)  

She said she found the author's statement offensive.  I said I did, too.  She said he needs to look to his own attitudes.  I said he did too.

And I asked that people stop calling Bill and Hillary racist, because, well, that is self-explanatory, they are quite obviously not.

I ask that you explain yourself.  My comment was not worthy of 0.


by Larissa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 07:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

I'd suggest the diarist look in the mirror.

And stop projecting onto Bill and Hillary.

The diarist didn't "project" or accuse Bill and Hillary of anything. The diarist accused some people on this site of racism, not Bill and Hillary.

I think that's why you were troll-rated.

by power of truth on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:18:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

I hardly think a Hillary supporter would give another Hillary supporter a 0 because she told someone to stop calling Bill and Hillary racists (which they are not).

No, McCheese made a mistake.  He is a Hillary supporter and so am I.  He was abusing the 0 ratings, he thought I was an Obama supporter who disagreed with a Hillary supporter, and gave me a 0.  He should not have done this.  

As a Hillary supporter I strongly disagree with anyone giving Obama supporters 0 just because they disagree with them (or 1's for that matter).  That's abuse of troll ratings.


by Larissa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Another possibility in his defense is that he meant to give me a 2 and slipped on the ratings indicator.  An honest mistake, but he never corrected it.  But I actually left the site the day he did it, and never came back.

People were calling Bill and Hillary racist.  But Bill and Hillary have done so much to, throughout their careers, to end all kinds of discrimination - it's a great injustice.  I spoke out in their defense and am proud that I did.

Either way you look at it, the 0 was not warranted and should have been corrected.


by Larissa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Also you twisted what I said out of context.

My original statement was directed at the Obama supporters saying Hillary is racist (and Bill as well).  There are many both direct and indirect examples of this, and I challenge them all.  There is no objective proof to support this claim of racism.  And much evidence to disprove it.  

The thesis of the diary is, Hillary supporters are behaving in a racist manner (the title of the diary is "Racism on this site") the claim of racism is directed at Hillary supporters.  The projection that occurs on this site is, that her supporters are racist (false generalization), therefore Hillary is racist, or is in some way encouraging this sort of behavior (again false).

I challenge all of this.


by Larissa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

and yes, I believe the diarist is calling Hilary and Bill racist, he says he's not, but then he says they are cynically using racism to win an election (which by any definition, if you are using racism to achieve a goal, you are racist, and at any rate, my mild comment for Obama supporters to stop projecting racism onto Hillary and Bill was not worthy of a 0):

And the insidious thing about this campaign against Obama is that it has been so subtle. Nobody's gone running around calling him an uppity--I won't write the rest of it but you know what it is. It's been so much sneakier. Harder to pick up on. Stuff that can be read more than one way. When a campaign lets something suspect like that slip out once, well, it might well be innocent. When it happens over and overe again, that's something else altogether, and I can't believe that Bill & Hillary Clinton don't know exactly what they're doing. I can't prove it, but I know it all the same.
So I don't think they're racists, but I do think one of their most dominant traits is ambtion, and in their ambition, I think they're cynically using race to help them. And I think it's loathesome in a country with a racial history like this one.


by Larissa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:09:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

If one has several racist supporters (and I think all sides can claim this), then don't project to say the candidate is racist. Nor say the candidate is using the racist supporters.

I believe that is being done (and I showed you the example above from the diarist where on this diary he accused Hillary and Bill of cynically using racism to win an election).

I said mildly, STOP.  It is not only my right to challenge this, but my duty.  It is a grave injustice to two people who care deeply about America, and have spent a lifetime in service to the American people.


by Larissa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:17:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Jerome also observed "reading through the comments, it's pretty amazing to consider what the Obama supporters are saying about Clinton":

Now, when Barack Obama made his claim about the "typical white person", it didn't mean anything, he was just talking generalities; and the same thing with Clinton here, but even less so. Clinton clarifies that she's talking about working Americans that Obama is not doing well with, which are typically white, and she's "ugly and divisive"?  This is a lame stretch.


by Larissa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:45:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

not only do you get a rec for the superb post, but also for the reference to my favorite MST3K movie of all time.

p.s. i really enjoyed your diary because I've got the exact same MyDD relationship you have. Used to come a lot, not so much anymore. The empty vitriol and ridiculous rage is pretty sad around these parts.


by beedee on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i recommended it (none / 0)

just for the mention of the best worst movie of all time, manos hands of fate.

best observed thru the lens of a nerd and a couple of robots.

anyway, great diary.  


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 05:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Great Diary, Mumphrey.

I would Recommend, but I have had my privileges taken away and cannot Rec diaries or Rate comments. Whatever line I crossed, I think it pales in comparison to the occasional racism and bigotry on this site that probably goes unpunished. Thanks for calling it out and congrat's on hitting the top of the Rec List.

by power of truth on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:22:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 1)

well to be fair, how many of the African-Americans are voting for Obama primarily because he is black? racism goes both ways. Also how many people aren't voting for HRC BECAUSE she's a woman. I think you're being quite hasty in claiming that 'people excuse it too,' assuming by that you mean people here are racist.


by swissffun on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:20:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Unfortunately, that argument would force you to ignore several misstatements by the Clinton campaign that could be called offensive.  

I find it funny how working class whites were said to be extremely offended by Obama's bitter remarks.  But black folks weren't the least bit offended by Hillary's LBJ/MLK comment, Bill's Jesse Jackson comment, or Ferraro's lucky to be black comment.  All of that was twisting of words, but Obama's bitter comment, unforgivable.


by shalca on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 0)

who said unforgivable? not I. it just revealed either a 1) detachment from the DEM base, 2) pandering to the SF fundraisers, or 3) a sloppy message control

the outrage over BCs jesse jackson comment, and BRC VALID historical reference to LBJ were full-throttle pushed and pumped by the BO campaign - documented! So maybe it was the SPIN of those comments that really caused the outrage.


by swissffun on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (1.66 / 3)

Yep, the spin, not the comments themselves.  Blacks as a demographic can't see spin, they just vote what they're told.  That's what your argument boils down to.


by shalca on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 3)

The deliberate and offensive spin put on these remarks betrays the cynical and mercenary negative campaigning by the BO supporters.

It is backfiring big time, as people reject the notion that to support Hillary is to be a racist. It's not a good way to keep friends, to stab them in the back like that, and burn all the bridges to the people who have been fighting for everyone's civil rights over their entire lifetimes. BO lost me forever with that one, it has been a destructive and ruthless technique that has wrought divisions among friends that took generations to build.

When you accuse people who are lifelong civil rights advocates of the radioactive charge of racism don't expect them to embrace that toxicity. You make it much easier for the real racists out there to maintain their stance, by dividing us and trashing the very people who would be combatting those folks.


by 07rescue on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Blacks have voted for white candidates for so many years. There is a difference. Some of the PA guys may actually vote for McCain and cross party lines just based on race itself. There is no indication any of the black voters will cross party lines to vote for McCain if Hillary gets nominated.


by Pravin on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But Sen. Obama denounced (none / 0)

Rev. Wright today - so what say you.


by Xanthe on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ha Ha Ha Ha (2.00 / 0)

"brooding, bitter Clinton supporters"

I don't brood.  I'm not bitter.  And I've never been a racist!

But I am PROUDLY a Clinton supporter.  And I will remain so even if I have to write her in for the GE.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 14)

Well, nothing fans the flames more than condescension and people whining "racism" while simultaneously delegitimizing the complaints of Hillary's supporters as faux outrage.

People, especially in Pennsylvania, were very furious and appalled at Obama's obvious insult to the state.  Having oblivious people saying "Pennsylvanians are just faking it" or "oh he didn't mean it that way; he meant to say something nice!" doesn't help.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:44:13 AM EST

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 5)

I grew up in Pennsylvania, though I don't live there now. I was born there, I went to college there and I lived there until I went to Honduras for 2 years when I was 26. My father's family has lived in Pennsylvania since the days of William Penn.
It didn't offend me. I understood what he meant, and I think it's true.
ооо
by Mumphrey on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 4)

Well except for the gun part - in Greensboro, where I was born, everyone's got a fucking gun - the rich people in gated communities, the middle class who just like to shoot at targets, everyone.  It's not really a function of economics.

I wasn't offended though, although I wasn't entirely sure what he meant, unless he was just referring to wedge issues.  I think Pennsylvanians polled said they weren't either - there certainly wasn't any evidence of it.


by Mostly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

PA was probably more annoyed than offended (2.00 / 6)

Obama's comments were more dumb than offensive.  People don't cling to religion or guns because they are bitter about politics or economics.  Anyway, no politician should be making sociological speculations about why certain groups of people don't vote his/her way.  There is really nothing positive to be gained from such an exercise and, as we have seen, the candidate just comes off looking silly and elitist afterwards.


by lombard on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Political, not sociological (2.00 / 2)

Obama was making a point that politically people cling to issues of gun rights' and hardline religious positions, b/c they do not expect the government to help them economically after generations of no help coming.  He was not saying that a person is only interested in one or the other due to economic conditions.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Good for you.  I suppose it's commendable to be able to take an unambiguous insult in stride and instead look for some kinder meaning behind the actual words.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

There are some people from PA who support MOVEON. Arent they legitimate voters too when Hillary insulted them?


by Pravin on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (none / 0)

Sure.  If they were offended, they have every right to be.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:13:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 5)

Edwards was my man too. I thought Obama was too centrist. Not as centrist as Clinton but too centrist for me. He seems to actually be just more pragmatic than centrist though. He worked his ass off through life and in this race and that's why he is where he is.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:45:16 AM EST

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 6)

No doubt.
I was thinking it might even get me banned, but I felt like I had to say something.
ооо
by Mumphrey on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 2)

It might but good for you for saying it.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More spin... (1.00 / 5)

...


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More spin... (none / 0)

hahahahah


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More spin... (none / 0)

Your sig is very interesting.  It used to be 15% that Obama was going to leave in the cold (cited from a study done on the effectiveness of mandates prior to the publication of Obama's healthcare plan).  Now, it's 20% (btw, I've heard you say Goolsbee said that figure...where?).  By the end on this campaign it's going to be 50%.  It seems like this is another example of moving goalposts.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (1.55 / 9)

Actually, he hasn't worked his ass off. His went to elite private schools as a child, and then being the son of a Harvard graduate, elected to attend Harvard Law School. He did well there. He graduated and did a fat lot of nothing for several years after that. He went to work at a civil rights law firm, and never stood out there. Didn't lead on any cases. Didn't win any precedent setting cases. He assisted here and there. Then he got into the Illinois senate - which was meeting 55 days out of the year - and did nothing whatsoever for the fist five years. Despite his claims of post-partisan genius, he couldn't pass a single bill when the Republicans controlled the state. Then Dems took over and Emil Jones gifted him with legislation. Nobody can point to a single bill that he had created in years past and carried through until it was signed into law. There are bills other people had worked on in the past, and done the heavy lifting on but none that Obama worked on year after year. Then he got to the US senate where he has underperformed one Hillary Clinton.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/ substance_abuse.html

In Clinton's 7 years in the Senate, she has had 19 bills that she was the sole sponsor on signed into law. In Obama's 3 years, he has had 2. It's just not impressive.

Now, we hear he's "bored" on the campaign trail with  the primary and wants to move on to the general. Uh huh, He's getting testy and snapping at people. Refusing to hold press appearances for several days at a time. It's a hard job and he wants it to be easy.

One thing Obama doesn't do is work his ass off.


by Little Otter on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 9)

There are about 10 lies in your comment, but what strikes me as most offensive is that you think that Obama's campaign hasn't worked harder than Hillary's for this nomination.

It was handed to her on a platter, and she botched it through absurd incompetence.


by Democratic Unity on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

Truth hurts, eh? go ahead - point to something i said that was factually inaccurate and prove it. You won't be able to.

I've done my research. You haven't. I know more about Obama and what he has and hasn't done than you. That's why I'm not supporting him and you are.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually (2.00 / 2)

you haven't done your research very well or you'd know that much of what you wrote above is wrong.  I won't address all the errors in your recitation of his educational background.  But let's take a look at legislative records and financial management skills.

Let's start with Sen. Clinton's.

Senator Clinton, who has served only one full term (6yrs.), and another year campaigning, has managed to author and pass into law, (20) twenty pieces of legislation in her first six years. These bills can be found on the website of the Library of Congress (www.thomas.loc.gov), but to save you trouble, I’ll post them here for you.

  1. Establish the Kate Mullany National Historic Site.

  2. Support the goals and ideals of Better Hearing and Speech Month.

  3. Recognize the Ellis Island Medal of Honor.

  4. Name courthouse after Thurgood Marshall.

  5. Name courthouse after James L. Watson.

  6. Name post office after Jonn A. O’Shea.

  7. Designate Aug. 7, 2003, as National Purple Heart Recognition Day.

  8. Support the goals and ideals of National Purple Heart Recognition Day.

  9. Honor the life and legacy of Alexander Hamilton on the bicentennial of his death.

  10. Congratulate the Syracuse Univ. Orange Men’s Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.

  11. Congratulate the Le Moyne College Dolphins Men’s Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.

  12. Establish the 225th Anniversary of the American Revolution Commemorative Program.

  13. Name post office after Sergeant Riayan A. Tejeda.

  14. Honor Shirley Chisholm for her service to the nation and express condolences on her death.

  15. Honor John J. Downing, Brian Fahey, and Harry Ford, firefighters who lost their lives on duty.

 
Only five of Clinton’s bills are more substantive.

  1. Extend period of unemployment assistance to victims of 9/11.

  2. Pay for city projects in response to 9/11

  3. Assist landmine victims in other countries.

  4. Assist family caregivers in accessing affordable respite care.

  5. Designate part of the National Forest System in Puerto Rico as protected in the wilderness preservation system.

 
There you have it, the facts straight from the Senate Record.

 
How does that compare to Obama's legislative record at both the state and federal levels?  Not very well for Hillary.

Here's Obama's bills and amendments which passed, courtesy of Hilzoy:

109th Congress, Obama:

S.2125 : A bill to promote relief, security, and democracy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 12/16/2005) Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 109-456

S.3757 : A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 950 Missouri Avenue in East St. Louis, Illinois, as the "Katherine Dunham Post Office Building". Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/27/2006) Note: For further action, see H.R.5929, which became Public Law 109-333 on 10/12/2006.

110th Congress, Obama: (8 amendments)

S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 1/11/2007) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 1/18/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 41 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.524 to S.CON.RES.21 To provide $100 million for the Summer Term Education Program supporting summer learning opportunities for low-income students in the early grades to lessen summer learning losses that contribute to the achievement gaps separating low-income students from their middle-class peers. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 3/21/2007) Cosponsors (None) Latest Major Action: 3/23/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 524 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.599 to S.CON.RES.21 To add $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 3/22/2007) Cosponsors (4) Latest Major Action: 3/23/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 599 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.905 to S.761 To require the Director of Mathematics, Science, and Engineering Education to establish a program to recruit and provide mentors for women and underrepresented minorities who are interested in careers in mathematics, science, and engineering. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 4/23/2007) Cosponsors (None) Latest Major Action: 4/25/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 905 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.923 to S.761 To expand the pipeline of individuals entering the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields to support United States innovation and competitiveness. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 4/24/2007) Cosponsors (None) Latest Major Action: 4/25/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 923 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.924 to S.761 To establish summer term education programs. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 4/24/2007) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 4/25/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 924 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.2519 to H.R.2638 To provide that one of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5 million or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee owes no past due Federal tax liability. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/26/2007) Cosponsors (3) Latest Major Action: 7/26/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 2519 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.2588 to H.R.976 To provide certain employment protections for family members who are caring for members of the Armed Forces recovering from illnesses and injuries incurred on active duty. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/31/2007) Cosponsors (8) Latest Major Action: 8/2/2007 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 2588 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

109th Congress, Obama: (15 amendments)

S.AMDT.159 to S.CON.RES.18 To prevent and, if necessary, respond to an international outbreak of the avian flu. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 3/15/2005) Cosponsors (2) Latest Major Action: 3/17/2005 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 159 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.390 to H.R.1268 To provide meal and telephone benefits for members of the Armed Forces who are recuperating from injuries incurred on active duty in Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Enduring Freedom. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 4/13/2005) Cosponsors (3) Latest Major Action: 4/14/2005 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 390 agreed to in Senate by Voice Vote.

S.AMDT.670 to H.R.3 To provide for Flexible Fuel Vehicle (FFV) refueling capability at new and existing refueling station facilities to promote energy security and reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 5/11/2005) Cosponsors (9) Latest Major Action: 5/12/2005 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 670 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.851 to H.R.6 To require the Secretary to establish a Joint Flexible Fuel/Hybrid Vehicle Commercialization Initiative, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 6/22/2005) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 6/23/2005 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 851 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.1061 to H.R.2361 To provide that none of the funds made available in this Act may be used in contravention of 15 U.S.C. section 2682(c)(3) or to delay the implementation of that section. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 6/27/2005) Cosponsors (None) Latest Major Action: 6/28/2005 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 1061 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent. (Note: 15 U.S.C. section 2682(c)(3) deals with the certification and training of people who do lead paint removal, and requiring that properly trained and certified people do lead paint removal.)

S.AMDT.1453 to S.1042 To ensure the protection of military and civilian personnel in the Department of Defense from an influenza pandemic, including an avian influenza pandemic. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/25/2005) Cosponsors (2) Latest Major Action: 11/8/2005 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 1453 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.3144 to S.CON.RES.83 To provide a $40 million increase in FY 2007 for the Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program and to improve job services for hard-to-place veterans. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 3/16/2006) Cosponsors (2) Latest Major Action: 3/16/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 3144 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.3810 to H.R.4939 To provide that none of the funds appropriated by this Act may be made available for hurricane relief and recovery contracts exceeding $500,000 that are awarded using procedures other than competitive procedures. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 5/1/2006) Cosponsors (4) Latest Major Action: 5/2/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 3810 agreed to in Senate by Yea-Nay Vote. 98 - 0. Record Vote Number: 106.

S.AMDT.3971 to S.2611 To amend the temporary worker program. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 5/15/2006) Cosponsors (5) Latest Major Action: 5/17/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 3971 as modified agreed to in Senate by Voice Vote.

S.AMDT.4224 to S.2766 To include assessments of Traumatic Brain Injury in the post-deployment health assessments of member of the Armed Forces returning from deployment in support of a contingency operation. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 6/14/2006) Cosponsors (6) Latest Major Action: 6/22/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 4224 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.4254 to S.2766 To require the use of competitive procedures for Federal contracts worth over $500,000 related to hurricane recovery, subject to existing limited national security, public interest, and other exceptions. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 6/15/2006) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 6/16/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 4254 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.4545 to S.2125 To make certain improvements to the bill. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 6/29/2006) Cosponsors (None) Latest Major Action: 6/29/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 4545 agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent. (Makes modifications to his bill on the Congo.)

S.AMDT.4573 to H.R.5441 To assist individuals displaced by a major disaster in locating family members. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/11/2006) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 7/13/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 4573 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.4624 to H.R.5441 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available for expenses in carrying out the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act may be used to enter into noncompetitive contracts based upon the unusual and compelling urgency exception under Federal contracting law unless the contract is limited in time, scope, and value as necessary to respond to the immediate emergency. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 7/12/2006) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 7/13/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 4624 as modified agreed to in Senate by Unanimous Consent.

S.AMDT.4972 to H.R.4954 To ensure the evacuation of individuals with special needs in times of emergency. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack [IL] (introduced 9/13/2006) Cosponsors (1) Latest Major Action: 9/13/2006 Senate amendment agreed to. Status: Amendment SA 4972 as modified agreed to in Senate by Voice Vote.

 
Then there's this from the NY Times:

click on the image to see a larger readable version

obamaLegislativeRecord

 

Obama is way ahead of Hillary in substantive legislative experience.

Hilzoy has more substance to add about Obama's legislative record here  

and here:

I came to Obama by an unusual route: as I explained here, I follow some issues pretty closely, and over and over again, Barack Obama kept popping up, doing really good substantive things. There he was, working for nuclear non-proliferation and securing loose stockpiles of conventional weapons, like shoulder-fired missiles. There he was again, passing what the Washington Post called "the strongest ethics legislation to emerge from Congress yet" -- though not as strong as Obama would have liked. Look -- he's over there, passing a bill that created a searchable database of recipients of federal contracts and grants, proposing legislation on avian flu back when most people hadn't even heard of it, working to make sure that soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan were screened for traumatic brain injury and to prevent homelessness among veterans, successfully fighting a proposal by the VA to reexamine all PTSD cases in which full benefits had been awarded, working to ban no-bid contracts in Katrina reconstruction, and introducing legislation to criminalize deceptive political tactics and voter intimidation. And there he was again, introducing a tech plan of which Lawrence Lessig wrote:

   "Obama has committed himself to a technology policy for government that could radically change how government works. The small part of that is simple efficiency -- the appointment with broad power of a CTO for the government, making the insanely backwards technology systems of government actually work.

   But the big part of this is a commitment to making data about the government (as well as government data) publicly available in standard machine readable formats. The promise isn't just the naive promise that government websites will work better and reveal more. It is the really powerful promise to feed the data necessary for the Sunlights and the Maplights of the world to make government work better. Atomize (or RSS-ify) government data (votes, contributions, Members of Congress's calendars) and you enable the rest of us to make clear the economy of influence that is Washington.

   After the debacle that is the last 7 years, the duty is upon the Democrats to be something different. I've been wildly critical of their sameness (remember "Dems to the Net: Go to hell" which earned me lots of friends in the Democratic party). I would give my left arm to be able to celebrate their difference. This man, Mr. Obama, would be that difference. He has as much support as I can give."

Imagine my surprise, then, when I heard people saying that Obama wasn't "substantive". It was exactly like my experience in 2004 when, after hearing Wes Clark for the first time, I went and looked up his positions on a whole host of issues of concern to me, and only then started reading media accounts of him in which I "learned" that no one knew what his positions were.

As some of my students would say: I was like, wtf?

And we haven't even discussed Hillary's mismanagement of her campaign though there is precedent which indicates that she has management issues which directly bear on her capacity as head of the executive branch.

How do she manage to spend $30 million on a Senate re-election campaign (the most expensive in history) in which she had NO significant opposition?

Ask Hillary about this.

21donate_graphic


by vbdietz on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:59:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually (none / 0)

you still passing this cheap crud off as proof?

factcheck puts your post to shame and rightfully calls it SUBSTANCE abuse

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/ substance_abuse.html

Since the value of a piece of legislation is so often a matter of opinion, that's a blogspat we won't get into. We can say for sure, though, that Clinton has been the sole original sponsor of more bills than Obama at a slightly higher annual rate; that she's been more successful than Obama at passing bills through the Senate and into law; and that, while she has sponsored a number of seemingly frivolous bills that were signed into law, these are comparable to many of Obama's bills and common in the Senate generally.


by colebiancardi on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Actually (none / 0)

Thanks for the link to fact-check.  That's the first time I've seen that email and I was unaware of its existence.  However, you should note that I did not use the portion of that email which lists Obama's legislative achievements. I used only the portion which lists Hillary's bills which though summarized, does not appear to be inaccurate.

For Obama's legislative record, I referred to Hilzoy's list which was extracted directly from the Thomas register and the list from the New York Times research dept with reference to his state legislative achievements.  I consider them both to be reliable sources.


by vbdietz on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 6)

Wait, so you're saying that if you get into Ivy League schools, you're really lazy? or don't have to work to graduate?  He didn't have to work to get into the Illinois senate?  and you're saying he didn't show up for his first five years?

The falsehoods you're spewing speak for themselves.


by shalca on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

Well in his (her) defense, I went to an Ivy League school and I was (and still am) astoundingly lazy. Took me 6 years and 2 times being sent home for a semester to get through school since I liked beer and sleep better than studying--at least until I got myself together when I was a 4th year junior...
Also George Bush went to Yale, and I believe he might be even lazier than I am, if that can be believed...
ооо
by Mumphrey on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

Yet you can't point to a single falsehood. The truth of the matter is that Obama, other than his oratory skills, isn't impressive. The most impressive thing he's done is making editor for the Harvard Law Review. He has no accomplishments in his own name and as a result of his own efforts that help other people.

But since you say I'm "lying", go ahead, prove me wrong on something.


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

You do realize that "impressive" is a subjective term and therefore open to opinion, right?  Thus, the only way to make an assesment of impressive is by considering what a reasonable person would consider impressive.  You may not consider an Ivy league education, a successful political career, and an ethics reform platform impressive for a junior senator.  You may not consider an exceptional ability to convey thoughts in a positive and rousing manner impressive.  You may not consider the ability to lead, which is mostly the ability to inspire others to do, impressive.  Reasonable people do.


by shalca on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sad. nt (2.00 / 1)

 


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 2)

What I want to know is when did doing well in school or in life become a negative? How is it that someone who managed to get into good schools and did well there is a failure for having done so? How is it that building a successful life has become the hallmlark of elitist depravity?

I just don't get it. We spend so much time and effort telling our kids that they need to do well in school and do well in life. Then, when we have a perfectly good example of someone who has done so, we say "Oh, he's a snobby POS who had it all and never worked for any of it"

It's sick how envious some of you people are. Disgusting


by liquidbread11 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (2.00 / 4)

I like how there were 2 diaries yesterday villifying Obama for being the Director for an organization that promoted education reform in Chicago Public Schools.

And how he's evil/corrupt for trying to secure funding for low-income senior housing in his district.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

Yeah, I know. I just don't understand why anyone would ever characterize success as failure? It just smacks of sour grapes and envy.

There are many, many instances of kids who started out life with a silver spoon and squandered it for frivolous reasons (Paris Hilton?) There are many stories of kids who had virtually nothing and had to bust their humps to achieve 'success' (Chris Gardner?)

Which do we praise? Which do we villify? Where is the lesson we teach our children in this?

It truly is disgusting that a man or a woman's success can be considered a liability somehow. Perhaps I am not mentally limber enough to understand that particular contortion.


by liquidbread11 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

What are you fantasizing about here? I pointed out that he since he graduated from college, he hasn't done much of anything? Are you so locked into victim mode that you can't even read what's being said?


by Little Otter on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:21:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear Hear but this won't go well. (none / 0)

Yes, you did say that, and I am pointing out, again, that by doing so you are effectively making the claim that his efforts post-college are unworthy of mention. Everything he has done since college is not noteworthy even though he managed to achieve the kind of success we advertise to our kids.

And again, it smacks of envy and it's disgusting. Both he and Hillary have worked hard to achieve their successes. We teach our kids to work hard to be successful.

Makes you look pathetic really. Kind of like the kid who is angry because he just isn't good enough to make the team.

/chuckle


by liquidbread11 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:19:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Same here (2.00 / 1)

Early on, it was Edwards taking the lead and risking unpopular positions while both BHO and HRC seemed to be taking the safe road.  With JRE's departure, however, BHO seemed to take larger risks without waiting for focus group opinions, more so than Hillary.  May be true, maybe not; but that was my perception.


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:07:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 6)

It always goes both ways.

Some here cannot understand that white people are also entitled to be offended.

Insensitivity goes both ways.

Liberal whites are the worse.

Because they have chosen to look the other way when someone speaks ill of whites, that does not mean that 90% of white people should follow your lead.

There seems to be lots of "guilt" all bottled up with many liberals when it comes to race.

They feel responsible for all the sins of  white ancestors. They now make up for it due to some tremendous guilt.


by libdemusa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:49:49 AM EST

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 6)

Uh. Past? It's not like systemic racism has ended...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:53:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Systemic racism? (2.00 / 1)

One could make a credible argument that affirmative action is the most visible remaining example of systemic racism.  I don't oppose all affirmative action. Not at all. But, I would argue that it is a form of institutional racism that can be defended as acceptable.


by lombard on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:26:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Systemic racism? (2.00 / 13)

Affirmative action is not an EXAMPLE of systemic racism.  It is a RESPONSE to systemic racism.


The universe is a casual place, not a suit-and-tie affair.
by mtnspirit on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Systemic racism? (none / 0)

Why would anybody give that a 1?


ооо
by Mumphrey on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He was sick of the same old bullshit, I suppose (none / 0)

But, I agree, that the remark should have just been ignored if he agree with it.


by lombard on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Systemic racism? (none / 0)

NeglectedDuty has given me a couple of troll ratings this morning.  Must be something personal.


The universe is a casual place, not a suit-and-tie affair.
by mtnspirit on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see (1.00 / 2)

So if someone punches me in the mouth and I hit him over the head with a wooden plank afterward, his attack is violence but mine is not.  And, if I continue getting even for the next 10 years, that isn't violence, either.

Look, they are both violence although you could make an argument that the response is understandable or justified.  


by lombard on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I see (none / 0)

That's not the argument I'm making.  I'm not making any argument advocating or apologizing for violence of any sort.  I just said that affirmative action is a response to systemic racism.  Where in my post do I argue that a violent response to racism is acceptable?

All of my posts on this subject have been the same.  I believe Barack Obama did the right think in speaking out to ratchet down any possibility of violence.  I don't see how my posts keep getting misinterpreted like this.


The universe is a casual place, not a suit-and-tie affair.
by mtnspirit on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 05:54:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're apparently analogy challenged (none / 0)

Or excessively literal.

The point was calling one action one term but refusing to call an identical action the same term is self-serving inconsistency.  Call it what it is and then argue why it should be justifiable or acceptable.


by lombard on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 07:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're apparently analogy challenged (none / 0)

You obviously have your agenda. I call it symbolic prejudice, but you can call it fair dealing if you want.


The universe is a casual place, not a suit-and-tie affair.
by mtnspirit on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:29:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Systemic racism? (2.00 / 6)

One could make that argument but they would sound stupid. AA is a response to the systemic racism that denies certain groups equal opportunity. It's an imperfect attempt at leveling the playing field.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 9)

Labeling it as "guilt" when people try and do what's right is an old tactic used to try and shame people into being bigoted. What, exactly, do you propose as an alternative?


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:57:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Racism On This Site (2.00 / 8)

Remind me when Senator Obama insulted "whites?"  At worst, he insulted socially conservative rural voters.  Turns out, that's not race-specific.  And other than that comment, which was blown way out of proportion, what has Senator Obama himself ever said that was derogatory towards -- again, using your words -- "whites."    

Also, some of us terrible "liberals" aren't guilty about anything, and certainly not about things that happened hundreds of years ago.  We just realize that racism is alive and well right now and that steps still need to be taken to address that.  I find it amusing that such a concept is controversial on a progressive site like MYDD.    


by HSTruman on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:57:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

baloney (1.62 / 8)

he was asked why democrats in PA were not supporting him.  He said they were not the right sort of democrats because they could not hear his messasge as they were gun toting bigots clinging to religion.

The fact is that lots of us just aren't that in to him.  Lots of us think Hillary is a great candidate who will be a great president.  That's the way it is.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: baloney (2.00 / 10)

Here's the full quote.  Please explain to me where he said anything even vaguely close to your characterization.  

"In a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism," Obama said to laughter.

"So the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? ... we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- to close tax loopholes ... roll back the tax cuts for the top on perent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we're gonna provide healthcare for every American.

"Our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/ob ama/891685,CST-NWS-obama12.article

Read is full, this is an inartful recitation of talking points that both Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton have made in the past.  So lets try to keep the feigned outrage and hyperbole to a minimum.  


by HSTruman on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:47:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you didn't get it.. (2.00 / 3)

The point he was making is that it has nothing to do with Obama or racism, and everything to do with Hillary.

She's just better...


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you didn't get it.. (2.00 / 2)

That was her second paragraph, not her first.  Her first was an obvious mischaracterization of what was actually said.


by shalca on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re:Double baloney (2.00 / 5)

Thanks for posting the comments that morphed from small town voters to white voters in a matter of hours, it seems.  It is truly shameful that presumably Democrats of 2008 have seen racial division as their best hope for the success of their candidate.  I'd like to think that our ability to resist such appeals is what makes us different from the Republicans.  Some lead me to believe that I am wrong in that belief.


by niksder on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you are BSing again (2.00 / 3)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:07:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: baloney (2.00 / 4)

And here we have exhibit A of the problem.


by interestedbystander on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: baloney (2.00 / 2)

He said they were not the right sort of democrats because they could not hear his message as they were gun toting bigots clinging to religion.
That's just a flat out, deliberate lie.  What's worse, with all of the media coverage and resources available, you know damned well it's a lie; but you have so little regard for the truth that you said it anyway.  Are you just trying to make HRC supporters look bad?


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: baloney (2.00 / 1)

This is actually pretty tame in comparison to Theresa's past comments.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: baloney (2.00 / 1)

Yeah; but I actually had time to type something this time.  (And don't get me started on her TR abuse.)


Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo
by rb608 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not race specific? (none / 0)

Have you ever been to rural PA?  It's as white as a carton of eggs.

I suppose if some politician made generalizations about those people in East St. Louis, those remarks wouldn't be race specific either?


by lombard on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:38:06 AM EST
[