A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan?

CNN has the story:

Michigan's Democrats have released another new proposal yesterday in their quest to ensure their state will be represented at this summer's Democratic National Convention.

Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, Sen. Carl Levin, Democratic National Committee Member Debbie Dingell and United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger - the working group that has been meeting to try to end the impasse -- sent a letter to state party chair Mark Brewer Tuesday in which they urged the Democratic National Committee to seat the Michigan delegation under a formula that would give a 10-delegate edge to Hillary Clinton.

Clinton was the only major candidate to appear on the ballot in the state's January contest, which she won with 55 percent of the vote. No delegates were awarded because of national party penalties on Michigan Democrats for moving up their primary date. Forty percent of January's primary voters chose the "uncommitted" option on the ballot; a majority of those "uncommitted" delegates are backing Barack Obama.

Clinton's campaign has said that the results of the January vote - which would give her an 18-delegate edge, 73-55 - should count. Obama's campaign had said the delegates should be split evenly, 64-64.

This proposal, which splits the difference between what the Clinton campaign is calling for and what the Obama campaign is calling for (actually falling slightly closer to the Clinton position and, what's more, opening the door for Clinton to net even more delegates out of the state through superdelegate endorsements, which she leads in the state by a seven to one margin), seems like a fairly reasonable compromise. On one hand, the proposal would allow for voters' sentiments to have a say despite the fact that their political leaders made the unwise (in retrospect) decision of playing chicken with the Democratic National Committee, and on the other hand it would ensure that Barack Obama is not unduly hampered by having followed the rules and refusing to campaign in the state.

Now it's not clear that either campaign will accept this deal. For the Obama campaign, this would not be optimal because it would enable Clinton to gain delegates (perhaps netting as many as 16 or more) despite the fact that Obama himself did not wage a campaign in the state and, what's more, his name was not even on the ballot. For the Clinton campaign, this deal would lead to giving up eight pledged delegates and, perhaps more importantly, concede some of the uncertainty upon which the campaign is enduring. (With Michigan and Florida resolved, it becomes increasingly clear that the math is difficult, shall we say, for the former First Lady.) Moreover, it's not even clear that this would be the best possible compromise.

But it is a proposed compromise, one in which everyone would be giving up something they want -- but one in which a tricky situation for the party would be resolved. It might not be the best solution possible, but it may be one of the better ones at this point. And the question now must be asked, for all parties involved, as to whether they care more about scoring political points or about resolving this issue.



Display:


Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 1)

Would this mean Hillary can also have her MI popular votes in her total since ya know those people took the time to vote for her?


by rossinatl on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:27:40 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 3)

Once again, nobody cares about rules...rules schmules...laws schmaws...haven't we had enough of politicians ignoring rules that inconvenience them or their agenda...

Even Hillary's Senior Campaign Advisor agrees that MI broke the rules and should not be seated...

I'm going outside the primary window," [Michigan Sen. Carl Levin] told me definitively.

"If I allow you to do that, the whole system collapses," I said. "We will have chaos. I let you make your case to the DNC, and we voted unanimously and you lost."

He kept insisting that they were going to move up Michigan on their own, even though if they did that, they would lose half their delegates. By that point Carl and I were leaning toward each other over a table in the middle of the room, shouting and dropping the occasional expletive.

"You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

We glared at each other some more, but there was nothing much left to say. I was holding all the cards and Levin knew it.

*excerpt from Terry McAuliffe's Book - What A Party!: My Life Among Democrats: Presidents, Candidates, Donors, Activists, Alligators and Other Wild Animals (Hardcover)


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:13:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

WHO SHOULD THE VOTERS IN INDIANA THAT DON'T HAVE A CHANCE TO VOTE GET COUNTED FOR?


by eraske on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Cripes, another neophyte. Who cares what Terry said back then? This is politics, people. And the rules are not what you or Obama say they are, it's what the DNC rules are, as set in 2006. Those rules allow for an appeal of the original decision and a settlement to seat the delegates in whole or part.

What a bunch of uninformed ninnies.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:54:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MI and FL (politicians) broke DNC rules (none / 0)

and DNC schedules, not to mention disenfranchising voters that didn't show up because of the mess created and the unfairness to other states that did follow the rules.

So let's seat none according to what the DNC decided.

And those politicians include Clinton supporting Stebanow, Granholm and Geller (FL).


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nice elitism, BTW: (none / 0)

"Cripes, another neophyte."
"What a bunch of uninformed ninnies."

Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:53:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No rules were broken (2.00 / 2)

No one "broke" any rules.  Florida and Michigan were given choices.  They could choose to hold their primary early and not have their delegates seated or they could wait and have a seated delegation.  They made a choice.  They did not break a rule.

Now they don't like the choice that they made and want to change things so that they can hold an early primary AND get a seated delegation.

They are going through an appeals process (as is their right).  And that appeal should be denied.


by smoker1 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:33:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You and Jerome act if these are great deals... (none / 0)

for Obama without even mention the popular vote. We aren't as stupid as you think. How does it get counted? It will be taken care of before the votes of disenfranchised voters in Indiana get counted. Hypocrite much?


by eraske on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:14:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You and Jerome act if these are great deals... (2.00 / 1)

OH what's a little SCOTUS/GOP led voter disenfranchisement? It's just the African-Americans (est 20% without IDs) and young people (est about the same). They shouldn't vote anyway! /snark


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You and Jerome act if these are great deals... (none / 0)

Nice tactic. Assume the worst and assume it will be to the detriment of your candidate so you can play the victim before anything actually happens.

Did you vote in 2000 and 2004? That's when we could have elected a president who put people on the Supreme Court who might have shot down the IN ID law.

Of course, those Dems who voted for Roberts really shouldn't be criticized, because you shouldn't consider ideology. What crap.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You and Jerome act if these are great deals... (none / 0)

Um. I didn't make that up...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You and Jerome act if these are great deals... (none / 0)

Um, just for the record, Jonathan supports Obama.


"It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for subtlety". Salvor Hardin
by Denny Crane on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:15:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My proposal (using exit polls): (2.00 / 2)

Pledged delegates (PD) are the metric designed by the Democratic party to measure the people's will in the race for the nomination, but should one be looking at the popular vote (PV) for informal purposes, here is my proposal for both PV and PD.

A question in the MI exit poll said:

MI Exit Poll
If these had been the candidates on the ballot today, for whom would you have voted in the Democratic presidential primary?

Category    % Total    Clinton    Dodd    Gravel    Kucinich Unc.

Hillary Clinton    46    97    -    0    0     3
John Edwards    12    30    2    -    11     57
Dennis Kucinich    2    -    -    -    -     -
Barack Obama    35    18    0    1    2     79
Bill Richardson    1    -    -    -    -     -

Based on this, my proposal is the following:

  1. Penalty: as a penalty for jumping ahead of other states, strip MI's super delegates 100% and both pledged delegates (PD) and popular vote (PV) by 50%.
  2. Split PDs and PV using the exit poll question above, and apply the 50% penalty.

That gives us:


Pledged delegates:
Clinton: 29
Obama: 22
Clinton's PD edge: 7

Super delegates:
Clinton: 0
Obama: 0

Popular vote:
Clinton: 136,712
Obama: 104,020
Clinton's PV egde: 32,692

Please see my spreadsheet for calculations: MI Solution


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:36:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My proposal (using exit polls): (none / 0)

I'm sure the Rules and By Laws Committee and the DNC leadership are hanging on your every word.

Politics is a tough business. Welcome to reality.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My proposal (using exit polls): (2.00 / 1)

Fair enough lets look at the reality, the above propsal was generous, Obama is going to be able to control the Credetials Commitee and he has no reason to allow them to be seated in a margin that will significantly alter the results.


by Socraticsilence on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My proposal (using exit polls): (2.00 / 1)

The reality is that the rules currently state that Michigan's contest will not count. It's on the burden of those that want to change the game in midstream to gain a consensus.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Politics should be people's business (none / 0)

and not made of gamesmanship of career politicians. In fact, we need term limits so that we won't have too many career politicians hanging around halls of power playing too many games (instead of doing people's business honestly and earnestly as they're supposed to be doing.)


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My proposal (using exit polls): (2.00 / 1)

If you're at all interested in doing something fair, bear these facts in mind:

(1) An election took place, in which hundreds of thousands of people voted.  Clinton won 73 delegates and Obama won 0.

(2) Obama took his name off the ballot voluntarily.  He didn't even claim at the time, and never has claimed, that the pledge required him to do so.

(3) Because he took his name off voluntarily, he reaped an advantage in Iowa, just as he had planned.  Clinton reaped a disadvantage in Iowa because her name was left on the MI ballot.

(4) Later, Clinton pressed for a re-vote in MI under any fair scenario, and even rounded up a passel of rich folks to bankroll the thing.  They wrote a letter to MI which could bind them in court promising to bankroll up to $12 million any presidential primary election under whatever rules the MI legislature should pass.

(5) Meanwhile, Obama's lawyers continually labored to find fault with every proposal, and the Obama campaign never added any constructive proposal of their own (other than the insulting 50-50 split, which I consider to be worse than no proposal at all).

Look, I know that's just Clinton's side of the story.  I am acknowledging right here, right up front, that I am only putting out Clinton's side of the story, and Obama has things to say.

Frankly, though, the above arguments are strong enough that an offer of 7 net delegates to Clinton is an insult.  She would get more than 7 just by letting the SDs vote--and by the way, superdelegates are provided for by the DNC Charter, which means that the Rules Committee's action in stripping them was almost certainly an action taken in excess of their powers.  So they go back anyway, and any proposal, like yours, that strips SDs is a non-starter.  Now that is against the Rules.  


by Trickster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The mess was created by Clinton supporting (2.00 / 1)

party office holders like Granholm, Stabenow and Levin etc (and Geller etal in FL). They should not have done so. As someone quoted above, back in 2004, McAuliffe threatened that no delegates would be counted if MI were to break the rules and move up their primary.

"(1) An election took place, in which hundreds of thousands of people voted.  Clinton won 73 delegates and Obama won 0.

(2) Obama took his name off the ballot voluntarily.  He didn't even claim at the time, and never has claimed, that the pledge required him to do so."

Obama acted completely in accordance with the rules. He and others took their names off because the DNC said that MI was not going to count.

It's apparently normal practice to take your name off when a state plays such games: it seems that Gore and Bradley took their names off the ballot in a similar situation with MI in 2000.

Since HRC didn't take her name off in MI, Obama/JRE apparently responded to her gaming of this and did not take their name off FL ballots.

"(3) Because he took his name off voluntarily, he reaped an advantage in Iowa, just as he had planned.  Clinton reaped a disadvantage in Iowa because her name was left on the MI ballot."

Clinton campaigned in IA saying that MI and FL do not count. Of course, she was trying to have it both ways in a classic Clinton style triangulation, i.e. she was "reaping advantge" in IA before IA and NH had their votes, and now she's trying to "reap advantge" from a contest that was a non-contest because of the mess.

"Later, Clinton pressed for a re-vote in MI under any fair scenario, and even rounded up a passel of rich folks to bankroll the thing.  They wrote a letter to MI which could bind them in court promising to bankroll up to $12 million any presidential primary election under whatever rules the MI legislature should pass."

I find it curiously interesting that Clinton has had a ton of money problems, yet her supporters were ready to cough up $12 million.

Second, didn't the MI legislature (or officials) put an end to a revote?

Whatever is done midway through the race has to be acceptable to both sides.

Obama played by the rules. There in no reason for him to hand over strategic advantage when it was the Clinton side playing games all along (in fact, it's good to see that he can play tough hardball when the other camp plays hardball since we want him to beat the Republicans in the fall).

Had Clinton taken her name off MI, there is a very good chance that MI may have held another primary on the regularly scheduled date as they apparently did in 2000.


Obama's Pop. Vote LEAD = 600K | Clinton & McCain = WAR Authorizers
by NeuvoLiberal on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:28:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My proposal (using exit polls): (2.00 / 2)

An election did not take place. Everyone agreed that it didn't count. The candidates did not campaign there. 2 out of the 3 top contenders were not on the ballot.

If Cuba had held an 'election' like that then we would be calling it a farce. When China or Russia holds an 'election' like that then we call it a sham.

I'm sorry you're insulted by the 7 net pledged delegates idea--but the actual offer on the table is 0 pledged delegates and 0 superdelegates. Popular vote holds no role at all other than to inform the opinion of the remaining superdelegates--if they want to take MI into account then they are welcome to do so. Of course, many of those superdelegates are from states that officially "don't matter" and which didn't break the rules, so I wouldn't expect a lot of sympathy.

Obama supporters would be happy to have an actual election in MI. Personally I think he would win it. And the state is and always has been free to hold an election if they want--there's nothing either candidate can do to stop them.


by Brannon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My proposal (using exit polls): (2.00 / 1)

I like it.


by Renie on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:46:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 1)

No, no, no, and hell no!

Look -- the MI/FL dilemma shouldn't be about either of the two candidates; it should be about the party as an institution.

If we validate any part of the FL or MI January results -- penalty or no penalty -- I fear in future Presidential elections every single jurisdiction will move up its primary and the retail politics that we've come to know and love in IA and NH (and NV and SC) being first in the nation will come to an end.  Money and name recognition will force out lesser-known candidates such as Bill Richardson, Mike Huckabee, or Chris Dodd whose only chance to prove themselves is in a small state like IA or NH.

The DNC did no wrong by stripping MI and FL of its delegates; the elected officials and the voters who placed those elected officials in office are the ones to blame, and they should be the ones to be punished.

This solution compromises the integrity of the Democratic primary system.  Even losing a few voters in the short run is far worth the price is worth losing confidence in the primary system.

50/50 is fine.  Another solution is to just let the superdelegates, which favor Sen. Clinton in both those states, vote.  But it is inexcusable to allow the voters of MI and FL any say in this election.  To do so would be to punish future candidates.


by Brad G on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:05:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

A much faired solution is the strip all of the the Super delegates- since the Party Elders in MI and FL caused the mess. and Stripp 1/2 of the Pledge Delegates and allocated it based on the January Primary results.


by nkpolitics on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nope. Not good enough. (2.00 / 1)

Seat the delegates as voted.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:30:58 PM EST

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (none / 0)

Do you believe that no one in MI would have voted for Obama? In other words, do you think your proposal reflects the will of the voters in MI. Before you say "he took his name off the ballot" so did Gore and Bradley in 2000 for the same reason.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I assume people did vote for BO... (none / 0)

as uncommitted.  What should he be given any of HRC's delegates?


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:38:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I assume people did vote for BO... (none / 0)

So you'd give him the uncommitted numbers?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (2.00 / 1)

that the other candidates were running at just prior to the election.  So Edwards would get his "fair share" , etc.  Obama will probably benefit from this formula, but not at the expense of HRC voters he might steal.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (none / 0)

Why wouldn't you use the exit polling?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:51:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (1.00 / 0)

Because the exit polling would probably show only Hillary and Uncommitted, einstein.


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (none / 0)

Excellent point. The vote and delegates should be split in some way that reflects the various candidates' standing at the time vis a vis the actual voting result.

But they won't do that, probably, for political reasons. Not fair, but so it goes.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (none / 0)

Really? You think that's what the exit polling showed? Did you actually look before you made your snide comment?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (none / 0)

If only Hillary and Uncommitted are on the ballot what do you think the exit poll shows?

You are angry, no?


If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (2.00 / 0)

Damn sir. I gave you an out and you didn't take it.

The exit poll shows:

46(C), 35(O), 12(E), 2(K).


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:37:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (1.00 / 0)

Einstein, getting your hat handed to you ain't a bad thing. . . lying ain't a good thing.
The poll shows:
Clinton:55
Obama:0
Edwards:0
Kucinich:4
Dodd:1

If you had everything, where would you put it?
by wasanyonehurt on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No - I'd apply a formula of %.... (none / 0)

Damn. That really sucks for you. You didn't even scroll down. Try again. Read more carefully.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (2.00 / 1)

Obama's name was not on the ballot.  How would it be fair to seat the delegates as voted?


by agpc on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BO took his name off as a political.... (2.00 / 1)

game against HRC.  HE made that decision.  HE should live with the consequences.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BO took his name off as a political.... (2.00 / 1)

As they pledged not to participate and as it was apparently customary (or at least Al Gore and Bill Bradley did it in 2000) it would seem disingenuous to act like he did something wrong...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:46:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It was not a rule or a law or a demand... (2.00 / 0)

BO and Edwards et al took their names off the MI ballot to embarrass HRC in Iowa.

They played.  And lost.  And that must be the end of that game.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:52:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was not a rule or a law or a demand... (2.00 / 1)

Is that why Al Gore and Bill Bradley took their names off the ballot? To embarrass LaRouche?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

OR WHY you're talking about it.


by CoyoteCreek on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps you should look it up as it makes your claim seem specious.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

[http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/2000pr esprim.htm#MI Election 2000 Primaries] It shows that both Al Gore and Bill Bradley took their names off the Michigan ballot in 2000.
by Brad G on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

And if you look at the date, it was because MI violated party rules, and moved up its primary.


by Brad G on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

If I had known that I wouldn't have voted for Gore.

Wait a sec I didn't vote for gore.

I didn't vote for Bush either though.

Damn you nader!!!!


by DTaylor on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:22:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

And you're supporting one of the most corporate financed campaign in the history of this nation.  That's a very extreme turnaround.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 02:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

Gore was my guy.

But I am in Califonia and I knew Gore would carry Cali.

And I had a rather HOT and VERY green party girlfriend at the time....

And being a man of my word I didn't just tell her I voted Nader.

I actually did it.

=(


by DTaylor on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have no idea what you're talking about... (none / 0)

Can't blame you for that.  But doesn't mean I can't make fun of you (as I have my brother who did not have such a good excuse).


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BO took his name off as a political.... (none / 0)

Obama took his name off because both he and clinton pledged not to participate.

Why did she participate is the real question (though unlike you, I won't attribute imaginary motives.)


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BO took his name off as a political.... (none / 0)

Um, because she wasn't playing games and trying to impress Iowa and NH?

Obama and Edwards took the risk. Short-term, it worked for BO. Long-term, the stunt may come back to haunt him.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BO took his name off as a political.... (2.00 / 1)

Was it a stunt when Al Gore and Bill Bradley did it?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (2.00 / 0)

Obama chose to remove his name from the ballot, hence, it is his fault he did not get any votes. However, many people who wanted to vote for Obama voted Uncommitted, therefore, I will have no problem if those delegates decide to vote for Obama at the Convention.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (none / 0)

What if they give them to him before the convention?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (none / 0)

Well, delegates have already been chosen for Uncommitted and half of them support Obama. I would have no problem if the DNC decided Obama gets all Uncommitted delegates.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (none / 0)

Gotcha. Sounds like a decent compromise for this election. Though it probably sends a bad signal to other states.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (none / 0)

That is why 2012 will likely have a different primary system. I hope we do implement a new system.

But, I should add, a 50% penalty must be implemented. Now, as a Clinton supporter, I would love all the delegates to be seated, but that is unlikely per the rules.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (2.00 / 1)

I agree that a 50% penalty must be implemented. Yeah I hope they do some sort of regional rotation (or something like that) so that states don't feel the need to jump the gun and everyone gets a fair shot.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly. What spin out of the diary! (none / 0)

Talk Left pans this new suggestion too.


by Molee on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:13:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly. What spin out of the diary! (none / 0)

I'm sure as Jeralyn is a lawyer she understands the importance of rules and procedure and wants no MI delegates to be seated.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly. What spin out of the diary! (none / 0)

That's hysterical. The rules for this situation were set in 2006 by the DNC, and allow for settlements of this sort. So as a lawyer, I imagine Jeralyn understands this a lot better than you do.

But John McCain IS crazy. I'm totally with you there.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly. What spin out of the diary! (2.00 / 1)

Funny stuff. So if they're not punished what's the point of the rules?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly. What spin out of the diary! (2.00 / 1)

I think this sort of reasoning is hilarious, "the rules have an escape hatch so therefore anything goes"

The rules of college basketball allow the NCAA to retroactively reverse the result of a game. I wonder why they don't do that more often?


by Brannon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:13:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Give me a slight break (none / 0)

All lawyers are rules-driven automatons.  As if. . . .

Do remember, though, while you're extolling rules, that certain rules trump others.  Like the first 3 words of Constitution: "We the People."  

Or

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, . . .

It wasn't for the prerogatives of the DNC Rules Committee, or for the principal of consistent primary dates, that those folks dumped all that nice tea into Boston Harbor back in the day.  It was for something else.  Something that the Democratic Party has always stood for.  Something that some of us were ready to go to the wall for back in '00.

Something that is very much at stake here.


by Trickster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Give me a slight break (2.00 / 2)

There is no constitutional right to a primary.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (none / 0)

that and a tooth will get you a quarter from the Tooth Fairy...


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's fucked. No way. n/t (none / 0)


by bookish on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nope. Not good enough. (2.00 / 1)

Counteroffer: Seat none of the delegates--but buy CoyoteCreek a plane ticket to Russia so he can enjoy a lifetime of Hillary Clinton-style Democracy--with only one candidate on the ballot and noone's allowed to campaign.


by Brannon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama should jump on this! (2.00 / 2)

This proposal is a blessing for Obama. He only goes down by 16 delegates, which won't significantly dent his overall lead.

More importantly, though, it takes the issue off the table. No more complaining about disenfranchisement. No more Hillary hanging around until we can decide what to do about Michigan. No more ludicrous pronouncements by HRC supporters on this board that the results of the primary should stand as-is.

God, I hope his campaign is smart enough to pounce and immediately start blasting Hillary for her inevitable opposition. Now she is the one trying to keep Michigan from being represented at the convention, when the state's own leaders have put forth a plan. She can't afford for Michigan to be resolved.


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:31:25 PM EST

Re: Obama should jump on this! (none / 0)

Bingo!!!


by chewie5656 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama should jump on this! (2.00 / 2)

No, he shouldn't.

The FL/MI dispute isn't about gaining political advantage; it's about the party as an institution.  If rules mean anything, then no part of the January results should be recognized.  There have to be consequences for breaking the rules.


by Brad G on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama should jump on this! (1.50 / 2)

I wish the rules would be respected, but I am not willing to sacrifice our shot at the White House just so the DNC can pretend that MI and FL don't have us by the short and curlies.

The most important thing we can do right now to win the election is make Hillary Clinton go away. The best way to achieve that goal is to figure out a way to seat the MI and FL delegations so she can no longer pretend that she might win if those states are counted. If a compromise is cut that takes the MI/FL issue off the table but still leaves Obama as the nominee, thus forcing Hillary out of the race, then I say fuck the rules.

But this is why the Clintons will never agree to this. Once MI/FL are resolved, they have nothing left.


I just flipped off President George, I'm going to Disneyland
by alvernon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 1)

So why exactly should Clinton get more delegates from MI?  Does being the only one on the ballot of a bogus election earn you an advantage?

I don't see any reason why Clinton deserves more delegates than Obama does in MI.  We have no idea what who the electorate there prefers.


by ChrisKaty on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:33:01 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 3)

It worked in pre-war Iraq when Sadam 'ran'.


by Roberta on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:47:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Any plan that involves people in a room making up their own version of what the people want is ridiculous. Who gave these people, or Clinton or Obama for that matter, the right to divvy up delegates like this?


by OrangeFur on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:43:55 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 1)

Do the rules not allow for it?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

No.  The (original) rules call for half the delegates to be seated, and for no unpledged delegates to be seated.  The amended rules stripped Florida and Michigan of ALL their delegates.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:17:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

That's my understanding. If there's no compromise I imagine no delegates will be seated though. Or not in a manner the effects anything.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

No. The DNC rules actually say that the entire delegation can be seated. It's up to the relevant committee(s).

The shock to some Obama supporters here will be that the 'rules' his campaign has been promulgating as fact are not the actual rules governing this situation. They lied, people bought it, they're going to be pissed when reality sets in.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 2)

You mean when Sen. Clinton said they weren't going to count she lied?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 1)

Dude, the members of the fabled "Credentials Committee" are appointed in part by Howard Dean and the rest are allocated on a per-state basis based on the results of primaries and caucuses where Obama will hold a decisive advantage (even more decisive than his delegate lead because number of states factors in more heavily than size of states).

If you were hoping for a smoke filled room--you're out of luck. It'll be more of a latte-filled room. You know, some cultists, some black panthers, liberal elite brimming with white guilt--you know the demo. Oh, and, once again, most of those members are from states which officially "don't count" and which played by the rules.

So...good luck with that.


by Brannon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:31:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Actually the Chairs have the most impact and they have already been chosen with Clinton holding an edge (unless most of those who have no known affiliation support Obama or some Clinton supporters defect).

The remaining 161 are likely to be pretty evenly split (Clinton did win all but 2 of the top 10 states, after all).

]{


by kristoph on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:14:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

I've read the entire DNC charter and rules.  You are spinning out of control.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (2.00 / 1)

I don't usually repeat myself, but I think this is worth repeating:
I wish you would all just shut the frak up about who did what or didn't do what when or why! I don't care if Hillary should have (or Barack shouldn't have) taken her (or his) name off the ballot in MI. I don't care what the RULES were or weren't. I don't care what the FL and MI Democratic Parties did or didn't do or should have done. What I care about is winning the GE. What I care about is bringing our Party back together in whatever way it takes. This plan wouldn't have any crucial impact on the outcome of the nomination, but it would go a long way toward welcoming the voters of MI (who didn't do anything wrong, after all) back into the fold. I would love to see a similar plan for FL. I am so tired of this "dog in the manger" attitude from both sides. There is no perfect solution. There is no solution that doesn't give something to someone or take something from someone in a way that isn't perfectly fair. One of the things we Jews know is that if God didn't temper perfect justice with loving mercy, the world could not exist. Don't tell me that the Democratic Party and the more extreme supporters of both candidates can't get their heads around that perfectly simple truth.
Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:48:42 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

It isn't fair to change the rules at the end of the game, just because the person that broke the rules finds the penalty disadvantageous.


"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill
by Atheinostic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Fair, schmair! As Plato (and many others since) said, "Politics is the art of compromise." As a lawyer, I can tell you that a good compromise is one that isn't quite fair to either party but is not hugely unfair either. This proposal is just such a compromise.


Rules for Life: Do not annoy others; Do not be too easily annoyed.
by Not the only Dem in KS on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

From the Democratic Convention Watch blog, here is what the Rules and Bylaws Committee looks like, which may or may not decide this thing on May 31.

Co-Chairs - no endorsement
Alexis Herman (co-chair, Washington , D.C. )
James Roosevelt, Jr. (co-chair, Massachusetts )

Members - Clinton supporters (12)
Hartina Flournay (DC)
Donald Fowler (SC)
Harold Ickes, Jr. (DC)
Alice Huffman (CA)
Ben Johnson (DC)
Elaine Kamarck (MA)
Eric Kleinfeld (DC)
Mona Pasquil (CA)
Mame Reiley (VA)
Garry Shay (CA)
Elizabeth Smith (DC)
Michael Steed (MD)

Members - Obama supporters (8)
Martha Fuller Clark (NH)
Carol Khare Fowler (SC)
Janice Griffin (MD)
Thomas Hynes (IL)
Allan Katz (FL)
Sharon Stroschein (SD)
Sarah Swisher (IA)
Everett Ward (NC)

Members - no known endorsement (8)
Donna Brazille (DC)
Mark Brewer (MI)
Ralph Dawson (NY)
Yvonne Gates ( NV)
Alice Germond (DC) - DNC Secretary
Jaime Gonzalez, Jr. (TX)
David McDonald (WA)
Jerome Wiley Segovia (VA)

If Clinton  supporters vote as a block, they will need 4 more votes to get a majority.

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/04/ rules-and-bylaws-committee-membership.ht ml


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:51:59 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

You assume that the 'Obama supporters' will vote as a block. Dangerous assumption.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

That just puts it to the floor.

20% can veto a proposal and send it to the floor.

I am not a rules junkie so I could be wrong but I was curious enough to follow a few threads on this.


by DTaylor on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Do you assume the Clinton supporters will vote as a block?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do it and take the risk? (none / 0)

As an Obama supporter, it sounds doable to me, as long as he can get on the air, talk about why he'd accept it even though it isn't "fair".   Because it isn't fair.   Justice and fairness are not the same.

Justice for the voters at the expense of a little fairness for Obama might be the best way to go if he can capitalize on it down the road.

Of course YMMV, the gain would eat into his lead, and maybe there's some other crazy gotcha he'd need to avoid.   But maybe it is time to take it, make some hay and move on?


by drowsy on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:53:16 PM EST

Re: Do it and take the risk? (none / 0)

as long as he gets to whine? I''m pretty sure he doesn't need permission to whine. He just wants to finish his waffle.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do it and take the risk? (none / 0)

That was pretty mature of you.  But yeah, if he's eating delegates instead of his waffle, I'd say he earns a few seconds of goodwill.


by drowsy on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:46:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

The hell with it...Rules are rules....even for the pretend Royal family of the Democratic party.


by DemoDan on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:56:27 PM EST

Hillary's lack of Ethics in the Michigan Primary (none / 0)

on order to game the system shouldn't be rewarded by any advantage in delegates.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 08:58:15 PM EST

Re: Hillary's lack of Ethics in the Michigan Prima (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, no. Clinton played by the rules. Obama and Edwards went one step further of their own choosing, for political reasons. There's no reason to reward them for their actions. They took a chance for short-term effect in Iowa and NH. But there was risk involved.

Obama probably won't pay for the gamesmanship he showed in MI, but there's no way it wouldn't be fair if he did. He rolled the dice.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's lack of Ethics in the Michigan Prima (none / 0)

They took their names off the Michigan ballot to abide with the DNC ruling Michigan. The UNETHICAL OPPORTUNIST Hillary left her name on.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:16:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary's lack of Ethics in the Michigan Prima (none / 0)

Clinton agreed to not participate in the MI election, and she left her name on the ballot anyways.  She should not be rewarded for that.


by ChrisKaty on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:15:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Dream on. No Way is Hillary going to take such a terrible deal.

LOL. You wish.


by cc on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:06:33 PM EST

No way. (2.00 / 3)

DNC rules state that the minimum penalty for leapfrogging the schedule is half the delegation. If they want to split half the delegation along that percentage mark, I'd be fine with it as a compromise, even though a revote would likely cut into Clinton's perceived lead. But seating the entire delegation send the wrong message to other states who may want to subvert the rules in future contests.


by bookish on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:08:26 PM EST

Re: No way. (none / 0)

This is a bit of a joke. If there isn't wholesale reform of the process after this nominating fiasco, the entire DNC should be fired. The Party should revolt.

It's hard to believe there will be a chance in future for a state to 'subvert the rules'. Of course, the rules state that the original decision can be overturned in whole or part, so which rules are being subverted is pretty murky.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No way. (none / 0)

From the Democratic National Committee
DELEGATE SELECTION RULES
FOR THE 2008
DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION:

C. 1. a. Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state's delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.
b. A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is set by a state's government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state. Candidates may, however, campaign in such a state after the primary or caucus that violates these rules. "Campaigning" for purposes of this section includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors in other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending emails or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters are invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying for campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities are covered by this section.

...

5. Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions, including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section C., against a state party and against the delegation from the state which is subject to the provisions of any of subsections (1) through (3) of this section C., including, without limitation, establishing a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances.


by bookish on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:14:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Florida and Michigan unpledged delegates should not be seated as per the original DNC rules.

And no...Clinton's 'popular votes' from Michigan shall not be counted by any reasonable person.


John McCain, maverick
by lojasmo on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:14:52 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

yes, it's counted by most Americans. Most think a vote is a vote. her name was on the ballot but not everyone voted for her. she offered to give him the entire uncommitted, which probably would have been Edwards. She's polling higher than that now in MIchigan.  The perceived fairness issue is fairness to the voters who too the trouble to vote.  They'll be seated, one way or another, but all rational people know that her votes belong to her and can't be traded. Not out of fairness to her, out of fairness to the voters.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

What are you talking about? The 'original' DNC rules were set in 2006, and they allow different ways to settle exactly this kind of situation. Probably because somebody understood that you can't actually ban delegates from states we really need in November, for obvious political reasons.

Kind of like the superdelegates, which were created so we nominated the candidate with the best chance of winning in November, as opposed to one who might have a relatively small lead but would be a potential disaster--on his own and/or down ticket.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

At this point, I just want a solution.  Personally, I think the appropriate measure would be to follow the DNC's pre-established protocol--it's what should have been done in the first place.

I really wish the DNC had simply made Florida and Michigan legitimate early primaries.  The political kowtowing over this whole issue is really pathetic--the double standards, bureaucratic chest thumping, Iowa and New Hampshire institutionalized bullshit...Florida and Michigan are much more representative of the kinds of constintuencies that Democrats need to win, and are on the bleeding edge of so many vital domestic issues these days, from illegal immigration to economic outsourcing and everywhere inbetween.  The DNC's solution of moving up South Carolina and Nevada was utterly transparent, motivated much more by the powers of the status quo and Senator Harry Reid than any genuine desire to improve the primary system.

The entire debacle is something that would have been much more appropriately handled by simply halving the states' delegations.  The Democratic Party cannot afford to be viewed as the party of disenfranchisement in these two swing states.

I'm as loyal of a Democrat as they come, and I mostly blame the DNC for this mess.  Like it or not, there are people out there, swing voters and loyal Democrats, whose enthusiasm will be depressed if their voices are not heard in some fashion.

We need a solution that reflects the votes made in these two states, for the sake of the Democratic Party nationally, for the Florida Democratic Party, and for the Michigan Democratic Party. We also need one that gives the DNC authority to maintain order over its primary calendar.  I don't know that this is necessarily it--I'm much more in favor of seating the delegates at one-half vote, as they were voted.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:21:08 PM EST

Michigan should pay a price (2.00 / 0)

Michigan to me, especially in light of the news in the last few days which highlights their repeated attempts to play chicken with the DNC and pimp their state, should go jump in a lake and suffer the death penalty.  Anything else gives them exactly what they hoped for and it is simply wrong, they should have no say this year.  

OK, huffiness done.....

I want to see Michigan included somehow.  But.....

First and foremost - zero super delegates for Michigan.  No compromise for me without that stipulation.  This is entirely the Michigan democratic party leaderships fault - 100%!  They should suffer complete loss of their place.  And to be honest Id punish them beyond that if I could.  They are going to skate on causing this clusterf*ck and they shouldnt.  There is enough evidence out there showing their continued attempts to mess things up and they should pay.

As for the pledged delegates.  I just dont know whats right.  Shouldnt there at least be a 50% penalty on those as well?  If a 50% penatly on those was given Id say just compromise and give Clinton her share and Obama the uncommitted.  I know there are problems both camps see with this and I have problems with this as well, but if this is what it takes to settle it, so be it.  We need to compromise at some point.

If there isnt a 50% pledged delegate penalty then I start to get less sure of an equitable solution or realistic compromise.

The other issue I have is any Michigan solution should expressly state that this is to resolve delegate numbers only.  No popular vote totals should be considered as valid.

I know why the push is on to get Michigan in play and while I believe supers can and will ingore, for the most part, the disingenuous attempts to include Michigan popular vote totals in their thinking, giving Clinton this trumpet to blare will keep this nasty, BS unsanctioned vote in the headlines.

This settlement for Michigan is to reward the delegates and the voters, not parlor games for the candidates and their surrogates.

So any compromise should include a statement, solid and clear, from both candidates that popular vote totals are bunk and should not be included in any official tally of votes.

But no super delegates in any circumstance.


by pattonbt on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:31:37 PM EST

isn't it ironic... (none / 0)

The state chairs of Michigan and Florida wanted to move up their primary date to give their states more clout, but in this unusual cycle, the states with all the clout are the ones voting last.
The Clintons are playing games with this because they oppose Dean's 50 state strategy - it's just that simple.
Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:32:01 PM EST

Re: isn't it ironic... (none / 0)

Obama played games when he took his name off the ballot. Clinton plays games when she needs MI and FL to make an even better case as to why she should be the nominee.

This is politics. That's how it goes. Consider this campaign a learning experience if you don't get it yet.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Game players? (none / 0)

Obama and Edwards and Gore and Bradley?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Florida and Michigan should be counted. That's simple. Neither had a ground game going, neither worked to get out the vote and neither campaigned. obama was already a big winner from Iowa and he had lots of press and really favorable press.  He did not have to take his name off the ballot, and he didn't in Florida.  He was way behind in the polls and that was his tactic. Would have worked if he'd been able to close the deal, but the rules have changed. Anyway he's tanking against McCain and Donna wants to supers to pick the one that can beat McCain, so I expect the state will be seated, once she has the delegate lead and has locked it up. That's fair to the voters.


what a relief
by anna shane on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:32:36 PM EST

I'm guessing (2.00 / 0)

Obama will wait to see how it shakes out. He's going to win regardless, but why settle for less than 50-50 now when he's holding all the cards and can settle later?


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:45:46 PM EST

Re: I'm guessing (none / 0)

Let me take a stab at this. Maybe, because he's not holding all the cards anymore and he better do whatever he can to look presidential and inclusive, so he can somehow pull this one out of the ashes.

The math you think is on your side is not reality. You may discover this very painfully in the next couple of months. If you don't, you'll be able to retain your naivete about politics for another year or so, tops.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm guessing (none / 0)

Obama can pull it out after he has the delegates (which he inevitably will have) for the nomination.

But if Hillary wants to split 50-50 right now, that's fine too.

As for the math, it is reality. Click on my tagline to have it explained.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:29:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

This discussion is irrelevant.

BHO's campaign is imploding... I do not think HRC needs to even go to MI/FL.. this thing is over.

Whites are going 60+ in favor of HRC and blacks are falling below 90 for BHO. The opposition is consolidating while the base is falling. Recipe for disaster!!


by loser on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:59:56 PM EST

re (none / 0)

He is tanking and he knows it. Hence the press conf. today, he enjoys those as much as Dubya


by rossinatl on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're absolutely right! (none / 0)

There's no way Obama can catch Hillary.


Hillary: "Her dishonesty is actually honest." -- yellowdem1129
by Kobi on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:42:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

I just killed a dude but its cool I think they might change the rules/laws to suit me..........

IF big if obama got 99% of the vote I would still not want any dels seated.

This sucks and the only way people will learn is to deal with the suck. Next time we should not have to deal with this.


by goalie40 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:10:59 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (1.00 / 0)

Nobody is changing any rules or laws. This is all playing out according to the DNC rules that provide for settlements of situations just like these.

As Dean Wormer once said, fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Michigan broke the rules (2.00 / 2)

Rules are rules. If you are a member of the Democratic Party, play by the rules, period. If you don't, you're saying you're more important than all the other states that DO play by the rules. This year, Nevada and South Carolina were added as early primary states, in addition to the traditional Iowa and New Hampshire. In fairness to all of the other states that did not violate the DNC rules, Michigan and Florida should not be counted this time around. Whether they are perceived as big-time Democratic swing states in November or not, they broke the rules.

Let the Democratic Party stand on principle for once and stand up for the other 48 states who obeyed the rules set out by the national party. Let's show the country we are a party that can not only make rules that are fair, but enforce them. If the DNC party leadership caves on this, they send a signal to everyone in the country that Democrats are unprincipled. I've said it dozens of times: to win Democrats must be not only rational ("reality-based") and positive, but formal. Formal means we obey the rules.

Michigan failed to obey the rules. So did Florida. This year that means they lose delegates to select the party's nominee for president.


by bannedNealB on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:22:47 PM EST

Re: Michigan broke the rules (none / 0)

Rules are rules.

Florida will likely decide the next president.

That gives them power.

The DNC has existing rules that can bend to respect this kind of power.

Michigan is in DIRE straights financially and may revolt from the Democratic sphere of influence if we ignore them this cycle.

The DNC has existing rules that can bend to respect this kind of need.

Your PERCEPTION of fair or rules is your perception.  The existing rules if it be the will of the rules committee and likely the general assembly can go as far as giving Hillary 100% of the Michigan pledged delegates if they choose or near 100% if kucinich got any.


by DTaylor on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan broke the rules (2.00 / 1)

Why will Florida decide the next president?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Michigan broke the rules (2.00 / 1)

There are a limited number of states that are likely to be in play in 2008.

Of those states Florida is one of the largest.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c ontent/politics/election_20082/2008_pres idential_election/election_2008_electora l_college_update

Its possible to trade Florida's 27 electoral votes for say Ohio AND Colorado or Ohio AND New Mexico AND Nevada

But in general its much easier to win one close race than to win two or three.

Which is why we will be kissing Florida's butt.


by DTaylor on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kissing their butt after they violate the rules (none / 0)

That'll show em!


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A real Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

With the following caveat, "Right after hillary drops out of the race!" The the Michigan solution should be adopted! Now that sounds just grrrrrreat say "tony the tiger"


by eddieb on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:23:47 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

I just gave another contribution to Hillary's campaign. I am so sick of the Drudge-style attacks coming from the Obama fanatics. All afternoon John Aravosis of Americablog has been trying to spread the total lie that Hillary secretly coached Rev. Wright and arranged for his National Press Club appearance. Former Republican Aravosis is also screaming about a Hillary supporter using the word "pansy" while for months Aravosis and his gang have been calling Hillary a "bitch", "witch", "whore", "dyke" and worse. Funny how they totally excuse their own misogyny and stereotyping.


by TruthCounts on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:40:33 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Links?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:41:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Another confidently ignorant stand.

2008 Delegate Selection Rules for the Democratic National Convention (excerpt)

"Nothing in these rules shall prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing sanctions the Committee deems appropriate with respect to a state which the Committee determines has failed or refused to comply with these rules, where the failure or refusal of the state party is not subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of this section C. Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to: reduction of the state's delegation; pursuant to Rule 21.C., recommending the establishment of a committee to propose and implement a process which will result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable under the circumstances; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of the state's temporary and permanent members to the Standing Committees; reducing, in part or in whole, the number of guests, VIP and other passes/tickets to the National Convention and related functions; assignment of location of the state's delegates and alternates in the Convention hall; and assignment of the state's housing and other convention related facilities.

7. In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules,

**the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced.*

The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.


by dark1p on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 10:44:17 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Yeah they'll fail the C&C test.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

What problem?  What issue?

MI and FL voters knew what their politicians were doing.  Regularly, states have been disenfranchised from the process by voting too late to matter.  There are no rights of the people that need to be protected here.  There are merely party rules.

There is no issue.  Once FL and MI did what they did, the issue was dead.  Sorry to FL and MI Democrats (not voters), but you should work to effect change in your state party.

I seriously have no idea how people think of this as a problem or an issue.  It's over.  They don't count.  You have 48 states and some territories to play with.  If you can't win from them, you probably don't deserve the nomination.


by USCKB on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:16:45 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

I don't understand why people keep trying to make straw polls count. There was a court case over this. The DNC won. At this point the state parties should've set up caucuses for February 6th or after to allocate delegates but they didn't. Someone needs to investigate why they didn't even though they knew their primary votes weren't going to count. Note that in both states the state party is heavily controlled by Clinton partisans.

I think we should debate why in Washington they had a meaningless primary vote and a caucus that counted. Since Hillary did better in the meaningless vote let's find a way to make that count.  


by wengler on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:24:25 AM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Hillary did not do better in the WA primary.  But I agree that the system here is really stupid.  


by JustJennifer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:46:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

"On one hand, the proposal would allow for voters' sentiments to have a say . . . . "

No way do I accept this premise.  Voters were told that the results did not matter, Obama's name was not on the ballot, neither candidate campaigned, turnout was way down compared to other primaries, and the outcome does not fairly reflect voter sentiment since polls show Obama has more support in Michigan than Clinton.  I'll be majorly p*ssed if Obama is penalized for following the rules.


John McCain vows to overturn Roe
by soccerandpolitics on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:13:26 PM EST

Re: A Palatable Compromise Out of Michigan? (none / 0)

Ever waited on line at the security check point at an airport?  48 states waited in line and followed the rules.  2 states tried to cut the line.  We've been waiting in that line a long time.  They have no right to cut in.  What makes them so special?  Security told them before they tried to cut in that doing so would result in them being escorted out of the airport and not getting to fly.

They chose to cut the line anyway.  As someone who waited his turn in line, I have no sympathy for them.  


by War Horse on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 02:27:28 PM EST


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