Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the Attic

Joe Klein sees trouble - BIG trouble - in Rev Wright's latest foray into celebrity status. In his column today, Joe opines:

And furthermore, I've been to dozens and dozens of African-American church services over the years, including the investiture of one of my friends as an AME minister two years ago, and I have very rarely, if ever, heard the kind of rants that are part of Reverend Wright's canon. Yes, as many have pointed out, Martin Luther King Jr. gave some angry, angry sermons--especially about the obscenity of the war in Vietnam--but for Wright to say the attacks on him are an attack on the black church is to offer a straitened and solipsistic view of that grand institution. Black liberation theology is not the black church.

And worse, Wright's purpose now seems quite clear: to aggrandize himself--the guy is going to be a go-to mainstream media source for racial extremist spew, the next iteration of Al Sharpton--and destroy Barack Obama.

Joe's right: Rev. Wright is not representative of the black church, and to claim that recent criticism of his words are attacks on the black church in general is a little... egotistical? Self-aggrandizing? Something like that.

Dana Milbank has some other ominous developments in his column...

Should it become necessary in the months from now to identify the moment that doomed Obama's presidential aspirations, attention is likely to focus on the hour between nine and ten this morning at the National Press Club. It was then that Wright, Obama's longtime pastor, reignited a controversy about race from which Obama had only recently recovered - and added lighter fuel.

Speaking before an audience that included Marion Barry, Cornel West, Malik Zulu Shabazz of the New Black Panther Party and Nation of Islam official Jamil Muhammad, Wright praised Louis Farrakhan, defended the view that Zionism is racism, accused the United States of terrorism, repeated his view that the government created the AIDS virus to cause the genocide of racial minorities, stood by other past remarks ("God damn America") and held himself out as a spokesman for the black church in America.

In front of 30 television cameras, Wright's audience cheered him on as the minister mocked the media and, at one point, did a little victory dance on the podium. It seemed as if Wright, jokingly offering himself as Obama's vice president, was actually trying to doom Obama; a member of the head table, American Urban Radio's April Ryan, confirmed that Wright's security was provided by bodyguards from Farrakhan's Nation of Islam.

Now, I'm sure the Nation of Islam provides excellent security, but why pick them out of the phone book when you're shopping for a security detail? Especially under the present circumstances? Perhaps there were pecuniary considerations, but Jeremiah Wright has money. He can afford any security detail he wants. Somebody's making a statement here.

Milbank also confirmed Joe Klein's take on the "an attack on me is an attack on the black church" meme...

Wright also argued, at least four times over the course of the hour, that he was speaking not for himself but for the black church.

"This is not an attack on Jeremiah Wright," the minister said. "It is an attack on the black church." He positioned himself as a mainstream voice of African American religious traditions. "Why am I speaking out now?" he asked. "If you think I'm going to let you talk about my mama and her religious tradition, and my daddy and his religious tradition and my grandma, you got another thing coming."

As Joe Klein says, oy.



Display:


Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Here here!..whenever I see his face on tv I change the channel....and If I never hear from Bill Kristol again it would NOT be a bad thing.


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:56:12 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 11)

Hmmm...    Family fued.  Can't be good for BO.


Donate to Hillary Now!
by alegre on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 0)

I wouldn't call it a family feud, Alegre, but I agree it's bad for Obama.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 8)

Bo was the one who said Wright was like "family" so Alegre has a point, although I think it was tongue-in-cheek.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not good at all. Buh Bye, BO! (2.00 / 6)


by CoyoteCreek on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wattree's totally freaked out about this... (none / 0)

...he just posted on Kos about how f**k-up Wright is for doing this! Yes, Wattree! One of the original Obama bloggers!

They're absolutely reeling in Obamaville today. Frankly, with all we've been through as Clinton supporters this cycle, I'm half-filled with empathy and half-filled with schadenfreude. A veritable conundrum.

At the end of the day, we practice what we preach, though, IMHO. If Hillary gets the nom, we'll need the Obamatrons as much as they'll need us if Obama still managers to pull it off.


by bobswern on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 12:00:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 0)

Joe Klein ought to be locked in the attic.  LOL.


by Spanky on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:57:48 PM EST

Hmmm... (1.93 / 16)

Seems to me like someone didn't like Klein pointing out the obvious. Sorry, but you can't blame the pundits for Wright's bizarre conspiracy theories and erratic behavior. That's on Wright.


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm... (2.00 / 8)

It is funny that no one asks him about the conspiracy to plant AIDS in black communities.  You got TR'd for remembering the paranoia? Weird.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 11)

well, there is a certain irony in joe klein accusing someone of being self-aggrandizing ;-)


by campskunk on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Irony is unavoidable any time someone quotes Klein like it's a good thing.


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:35:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 3)

He is wrong on the Black Church matter.  People in the Black Theological Community, a lot of my friends, feel like they are under attack.  I'm not sure what qualifies Klein to speak on such matters, but am pretty sure I'm better qualifies...as I've watched the Wright issues develop with the very "black liberation theologians" he dismisses and the next generation of Black Pastors in the seminary community.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:00:27 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 10)

YOU know that I know that. but half (at least) of the country have never set foot in a black church. their bullshit detectors on this subject have no batteries on them.


by campskunk on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:07:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 2)

It is raising a big ethical issue for us in the theological community.  We stand by Wright nearly to a person, we want to defend him, we want to embrace him.  Yet we also support Obama nearly to a person...and are having a rather rough time deciding if we should do right by standing by Wright, or throw Wright under the bus for the sake of Obama.  It is especially tough considering that many of us know Rev. Wright well, and know him as a great man.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The separation of church and state... (2.00 / 4)

should help you there - stick with
Wright and stay out of politics!
by CoyoteCreek on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The separation of church and state... (none / 0)

The moment Wright became an issue the separation of church and state was, at least for this campaign cycle, "obliterated" to use a popular word these days.

That's been my biggest annoyance with this whole thing - camping outside a church, ambush interviews with startled parishoners, helicopters following Rev. Wright 24 hours a day.  Am I think only person who thinks that what goes on in a church is, well, sort of sacred?  Wright is Obama's former minister - he ministered to Bill Clinton as well, and was Lyndon Johnson's nurse.  These are not political endorsements, like, say, the Reverend Hagee is.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The separation of church and state... (2.00 / 2)

he ministered to Bill Clinton as well,

really?  Other than the prayer meeting, what have you got?  I am not being snarky;  I am curious, because I don't consider having 100 or so ministers for a prayer meeting being in the same league as "ministering" to an individual.


by colebiancardi on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The separation of church and state... (none / 0)

That's what I'm referring to.  I do consider it "ministering" under the circumstances; they were called in to provide spiritual counseling when Bill Clinton and his family were personally under fire.

That's ministering.  Bill Clinton didn't call him in because of his political views; he did so because of his reputation and his stature.  Which is also why Barack Obama chose him as his pastor.

This whole flap has my pretty upset for reasons I've stated all over the place - my point isn't to tar Bill Clinton in any way but to point out that this is a man who's been places.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It seems that Wright is a great man (none / 0)

in some areas, but he is sadly lacking in others.  Like most human beings, I would add.

Right now he is behaving in a very narcissistic way, injecting himself unnecessarily into a very tight race where a devoted friend is trying to introduce himself to the American people.  I think someone needs to pour Wright a nice big cup of STFU.

On one of the cable shows today someone noted that Wright has a new book coming out and that he is seeking visibility to sell books.
Whatever the case, he isn't helping Obama.


by Radiowalla on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bob Edwards interviewed Michael Eric Dyson... (none / 0)

... last week, and it aired over the weekend. (podcasts available)

He had some insightful things to say about Obama and Wright, putting the issue in a good context for us white folks to wrap our heads around.  I particularly liked his comparison of Obama to pre-1965 MLK, and Wright to post-1965 MLK.

Remember, MLK's last un-given sermon, the one he was scheduled to give the Sunday after he died, was entitled "Is America Going to Hell?"


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 2)

As an Obama supporter, I'm really appalled that this guy is putting himself out there. I think he wants Obama to lose to further his view of America as irremediably racist.

Obama does NOT agree with Wright on these things and said so. Obama nonetheless treated Wright with respect and affection and now is being repaid with a self-indulgent man who wants his moment on the national stage.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:01:40 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 1)

It really is not about Obama.  So many people in the Black Theological Community have been asking him to get out there for the sake of the important field.  We are working on bringing him here to Princeton.  This is about Black Theology being stigmatized.  Not about Barack Obama.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, it really isn't... (2.00 / 5)

This is about Black Theology being stigmatized.

No, it really isn't. Believe it or not, most African-American theologians do not peddle bizarre conspiracy theories about AIDS being some government-created virus to control the population... And they surely don't support the kind of violence & anti-Semitism espoused by figures like Louis Farrakhan. So no, don't try to make Jeremiah Wright some "martyr". He really isn't.


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:09:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, it really isn't... (none / 0)

Perhaps you know more Black Theologians than I do..  But, That is funny because as I've chatted with Peter Paris and Yolanda Adams they seemed to have a different opinion.  Cone and other have been attacked, seeing God as siding with the oppressed has been called racists.  Sure, Rev. Wright said some things that a lot of us know as untrue.  But much of what has been attacked has been the theological opinions, not the AIDS matter.  


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question (2.00 / 1)

Do you think what you described is a fair summation of Wright's views?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question (2.00 / 1)

You know, at this point, I just wish he'd be quiet. There's plenty of time to argue on behalf of black theology of the type he espouses. Meanwhile, he is undermining Obama's campaign.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:18:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, I agree. (2.00 / 1)

I make the same argument about any number of subjects not reducible to My Guy Good, Your Guy Bad. It's just appalling to me that some people of obvious intelligence knowingly reduce something they know to be more nuanced than they present it to some weasel-like soundbites. Wright's theology is indeed a little bit more complex than campskunk presents it, is my point.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

CardBoard, I'm confused.  If what he's saying when he "gets out there" is stuff like Klein quoted ... it's only going to make things so much worse.  It seems to me he should be quiet.

I truly hope that nobody out there thinks that black churches are all like this.  I know I've never thought this for even a moment.  But it seems like Wright is doing everything he can to make people think badly of them.  It's very upsetting.


by mlr701 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 06:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am a Hillary supporter (none / 0)

and have been since the very beginning.

However, I completely agree with you here.  Obama could very well be our nominee and this type of distraction is poisonous.  Wright is about as helpful to Obama as Gennifer Flowers was to Bill Clinton.  Clinton did survive, but who knows where this is going to end up.


by Radiowalla on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am a Hillary supporter (none / 0)

And Clinton did a very good job delineating public life over here, private life over there.  Barack Obama's not doing that.  He's volunteering that questions about his pastor are fair game.


by Mostly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:03:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 2)

I think Barack Obama should give another speech.  This time he should say:

"I can no more lock Reverend Wright in the attic than I could lock my grandmother in the attic."

Ok, so I'm only kidding.  But yeesh this is a problem for him.


by mikes101 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:05:54 PM EST

Please don't lock him up (2.00 / 8)

I hope we get to see more and more of him in the coming weeks.  Maybe he can do an Obama Friends Tour with Tony Rezko.


I didn't believe in god before the primaries and I still don't.
by NewHampster on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:08:50 PM EST

Re: Please don't lock him up (2.00 / 6)

ALl I have to say is, THANK GOD Hillary is still in this race!  


by mddem08 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amen. n/t (2.00 / 1)


Re-elect the President in 2012
by DemAC on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please don't lock him up (none / 0)

Great idea.  Guilt-by-association will do wonders for Hillary Clinton's campaign.

I don't think this is a big deal, but I think you might find my views on the separation of church and state (hint: I believe it's absolute) to be somewhat quaint.  But just in case I'm in the minority here, keep in mind that John Edwards only 'suspended' his campaign.  If you're not going to give the nomination to the pledged delegate winner then it seems to me that he's got as much right to the nomination as Hillary Clinton does, and he's far more electable.  He was also the first choice of like a third of Obama's supporters.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:39:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lol (none / 0)


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please don't lock him up (none / 0)

What utter nonsense.


by Tolstoy on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please don't lock him up (none / 0)

How so?  Obviously we aren't going by the will of the voters anymore.


by Mostly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This race has not yet been decided... (none / 0)

...and people will continue to vote and we'll see what happens.  Although I continue to want to see HRC win, it'll ultimately be decided by the superdelegates who clearly may choose either candidate.  That may be BHO, or it may be HRC.  Nothing is carved in stone.


by TinaH1963 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 4)

Wright said during Bill Moyers interview that he and Obama never discussed politics.   Now he is saying that he told Obama last year if he is elected he is coming after him on american policy.   huh?

So the great pastor is not speaking the truth.


by JoeySky18 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:09:49 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

I can think of a million ways to reconcile the two statements.  Keep digging though - you might be able to convince enough people to doom Reverend Wright's presidential campaign.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:41:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

"He's just my pastor and the crazy uncle"  ("that I discuss politic with")  Barack Obama.


by JoeySky18 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 06:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

I'm wondering if you can remember the exact moment when you stopped believing in the separation of church and state.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Joe Klein on black churches??? (2.00 / 2)

So, Joe is the authority on black churches in American now? lol Now I have seen everything. lol Joe, why don't YOU go and work on YOUR uncle, Joe Lie-Berman? This is so rich.


by ETHIOLIB on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:13:52 PM EST

Clintons Insult White Southern Baptists (1.00 / 4)

Wright is not far out of the mainstream for the Bible Belt, not even for white churches.

This is about Hillary the elitist.


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons Insult White Southern Baptists (none / 0)

Well, I have to admit that I don't know much about that myself. I grew up a NY Jew who knew lots of Catholics, but virtually no Protestants of any type.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You Really Want to TR That Comment? (none / 0)

Clearly, I have to do a diary


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's about Hillary? (none / 0)

LOL.

That was a real tour de force.


by Radiowalla on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintons Insult White Southern Baptists (none / 0)

How does Rev. Wright's recent statements have anything to do with HRC?  I don't try to hang the millstone around Obama's neck for things he has no control over.  Blaming HRC for everything that has gone wrong in BHO's campaign is asinine.


by TinaH1963 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein on black churches??? (2.00 / 0)

What, didn't you read what he said? He's been to LOTS of black services. I bet he now knows more about black Christian theology than the black parishoners themselves, or even the ministers! After all, what could they know? It always takes some white guy to tell black people what they think and how they live. White people are the experts on all things black. Why I as a white guy know more about black people than any black person could know, just from listening to Bill Cosby records when I was a kid.
Joe Klein is a wanker.
ооо
by Mumphrey on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein on black churches??? (none / 0)

at first I read your comment I thought you were serious  then I fell out the chair laughing my friend  1000 pts for you


President Barack Obama "get used to it"
by wellinformed on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mydd Helps Those Silly, Silly Negros (2.00 / 1)

The mydd community is so generous in patiently explaining things to black people. They are so child-like.

(snark)


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein on black churches??? (none / 0)

lol Thanks, Mumph, that was on the money!  What is even more amusing is the people who buy into that shit like so many on thsi board!  Just because Joe said something they desperately want to hear, they forget (conveniently of course) that he is a right winger, and cite him as the authority. lol Thanks again.


by ETHIOLIB on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein on black churches??? (none / 0)

Yeah, it is so kind of these Clinton people here to tell black people why they're idiots for backing Obama and why their churches are scary and bad.
Some of these people scare me. In my darker moments I can see a few of the more nutty ones going out and blowing up a black church or something.
Sure, I exaggerate, but some of the shit I've read here would sound right coming from David Duke or Jesse Helms, and that scares me.
ооо
by Mumphrey on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 06:01:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Aren't journalists/commentators (none / 0)

supposed to write about current events.  Or should only Black Liberation theologists write the commentary here.  Come on - That's what writers do - by your lights, only AAs should write about American AA events and only whities should write about white events - I suppose that's unity.

Having said that - I thought the speech in front of the press corps was a teaching opportunity for the Reverend.  It was informative; he seems a competent teacher to me at least - I've not taken any Black theology classes.  And he is clever.  But he is also enjoying center stage - which may not be a good thing for Barack.  It certainly was a better event than last night at NAACP.

My problem with the Reverend is he speaks in two tongues - one for the black audience and one for a whitish audience.  Okay - fine, but I don't like being played.  That's the way I felt with the inside thing Obama did with the finger and flicking - an inside moment.  Are we to be treated to this again should he be elected President - will the clueless whities be issued handbooks?      


by Xanthe on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Aren't journalists/commentators (2.00 / 1)

He's actually already signaled in secret black language that he's going to enslave white people.


by Mostly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This kind of comment - (2.00 / 1)

is going to bring in a lot of votes for Obama.  It's real cute - unfortunately, we don't live in a cute world.  

And as usual - insulting to Hillary supporters - because why?  You don't need us?  


by Xanthe on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 07:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oy is right. (2.00 / 1)

Time for the campaign to put him out to pasture far from any cameras. Wright is becoming a distraction, and unfortunately, campaign season just isn't the time to have the discussions he'd like to have, whatever one may think of them on the merits.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:14:15 PM EST

Re: Oy is right. (2.00 / 2)

Is the discussion Rev. Wright would like to have different from the discussion Obama called for in "A More Perfect Union?" Or for that matter different that diaries here have tried to initiate, though in a very imperfect way?

I agree with you, campaign season is not the time to try to have a serious discussion about racial reconciliation. Race in America is an issue that is too easily turned into a divisive wedge during a campaign, and that only serves the Republicans. That is why I read Obama's speech as an attempt to close the topic, not open it. And that is why I consider the speech dishonest.


by souvarine on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:54:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You know what's really sad? (2.00 / 1)

That some people are so fixated on making Obama into an enemy image that they can't give him even the slightest bit of credit for anything. You can use any number of adjectives to describe that speech, but 'dishonest' is absolutely the last one that comes to mind.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:04:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You know what's really sad? (2.00 / 2)

I'm sure Obama wants to move the country forward on racial reconciliation, and just the fact of him becoming president could be a huge step forward. But he knows that to become president he has to take race off the table, not because most Americans are racists but because it is so easy for Republicans to divide us using race. Superficially his speech was opening up a discussion of race, but its real aim was to take race, and Rev. Wright specifically, off the table.

Obama is in the same position as JFK, who had to take his Catholicism off the table as an issue, or Mitt Romney with his Mormonism, or Hillary Clinton who has to keep many gender issues off the table.


by souvarine on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Last 10 Min of "Lassie Come Home?" (none / 0)

"The Yearling" is a real weeper also


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Too Late (2.00 / 5)

Anyway, I don't think Wright would listen.  He's sinking Barack with his insistence on trying to one-up him. He's a more inspirational speaker? He's really really really not a politician?  He gave him all his best lines?  He showed him how to deliver them? He made that man, and that man had the nerve to 'distance' from his maker?  Plus, he'll have to stay on Barack's case just as if he were any ahem politician?  It's clear that man wants a floor fight at the convention and he wants to be picked up and carried in adoring arms to the white house, where he'll kick out all those roosting chickens and show up Barack. With friends like Wright??? And newly elected President Wright will be sworn in by chastened and sorry as all heck Barack Obama?  What a fathead.  


what a relief
by anna shane on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:17:12 PM EST

Re: Too Late (2.00 / 2)

I doubt he will listen. He is probably enjoying all the attention.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Late (none / 0)

Sinking? There is little evidence of that..


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:05:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Late (2.00 / 3)

Honestly, you don't think that an African American minister, Obama's would be 'uncle', spouting off about how the US government is responsible for AIDS, Al Queda, 9/11, is not going to cost Obama in IN and NC?

]{


by kristoph on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:25:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Late (none / 0)

Well all they have to do is put everyone's favorite black uncle, Bill Cosby, on TV saying he thought so too and show that the government has, throughout history up to today, experimented on black people and that would be that. I'd love that to hit the traditional media full force. If right-wing preachers saying that God created AIDS to kill gays hasn't hurt the GOP candidates I don't see why it would hurt Obama.

But moving on to the other issue, more serious, issue IMO the US is responsible for AQ and 9/11 was blowback from our foreign policy. Now are you arguing that voters are too stupid to know that? Or are you arguing those things aren't true?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:29:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too Late (none / 0)

Hey!   I got it.....maybeRev. Wright is the one we have been waiting for!    God help us all!

Rev. Wright said it..he's sticking with his grandmother, what can I tell ya!

Houston, we have a problem!


by Cruiser35 on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When People Ignore Wright (none / 0)

They will also be tuning out Hillary for good. Because that's all she's got.

Buh-bye Hillary!


by bernardpliers on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:22:55 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the (2.00 / 4)

oy is right. oy! oy! oy!


by linfar on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:24:20 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

It's a common metaphor.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:25:12 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Whatever. Those metaphors don't bother me and I'm not going to get worked up about either.  

On the other hand, language that is racially-charged or homophobic or sexist, well, that deserves our criticism.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Yep. And I then argued that KO's comment was metaphorical and it was overreaching to make a big deal about it.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Would you allow the possibility that this whole controversy is racially charged?  I have never, in all my life, seen a candidates church gone over with such a fine-toothed comb.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Yes, I do think this controversy is racially-charged. At the same time, I also think that Obama would be better off if Wright were quiet right now.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Well I agree with that.  I think he would have been fine to do the NAACP speech and leave it at that.

Why appear before the National Press Club?  A more bloodthirsty group of leeches in a room you can't imagine.

And he's got it entirely backwards (along with my good friend Cardboard).  This is an attack on Barack Obama, with the black church being collateral damage.  What does Wright think - that the press woke up one day and decided to go after him after 30 years of ministry?  It's got nothing to do with him, and everything to do with the political campaign.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 3)

they are. i'm a psychologist and my father is a physician. as we frequently tell my mother, it only takes two expert opinions to initiate commitment proceedings.


by campskunk on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:31:06 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 1)

This is why religion needs to be taken completely out of politics.

I am agnostic.  I don't give a shit about black theology or white theology or ANY fucking theology.

All religion is nutty.  too bad Mitt dropped out, because this election season could have been REALLY fun (in a wacky, nutty way)


by colebiancardi on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:41:55 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 1)

Thank you!


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

you're welcome.  It felt good to type that.  whew...


by colebiancardi on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

If Wright wants the Nation of Islam to provide security -
Then he, damn well, has the right to have them provide his security.

Get over it.

Ooooohhhhhh!
Nation of Islam.
Bunch of crazy -------, right?

Malcolm X must be spinning in his grave.


by johnnygunn on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:48:06 PM EST

spinning? no. (2.00 / 3)

malcolm is IN his grave because of the Nation of Islam. they're the ones who assassinated him.

Three men were eventually charged in the case. Talmadge Hayer, also a Black Muslim, confessed to having fired shots into Malcolm's body, but he testified that Butler and Johnson were not present and were not involved in the shooting. All three were convicted.

Norman 3X Butler, now known as Muhammad Abdul Aziz, was paroled in 1985 and became the head of the Nation of Islam's Harlem Mosque in New York in 1998.



by campskunk on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's Be Truthful Here (none / 0)

If you are going to quote Wikipedia, then be so kind as to use the entire quote - -

Norman 3X Butler, now known as Muhammad Abdul Aziz, was paroled in 1985 and became the head of the Nation of Islam's Harlem Mosque in New York in 1998.
He continues to maintain his innocence.

Of course, Malcolm X never had anything to do with the Nation of Islam during his life.  Nor would he have approved of Wright's "Chickens" metaphor.  Oh, no. Nor would Herbert Hoover or the Johnson administration have attempted to finger the Nation of Islam as authorities have been trying to do ever since its inception.

A widespread view in the African American community is that the government murdered Malcolm X and blamed it on the Nation of Islam - killing two birds - chickens, if you will - with one bullet.


by johnnygunn on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's Be Truthful Here (none / 0)

Sounds like there is widespread insanity in the black community.


by Caliman on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's Be Truthful Here (none / 0)

Sounds like there is widespread racism in America.


by johnnygunn on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's Be Truthful Here (none / 0)

do you, personally, believe that?


by campskunk on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:34:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

minor point of correction (none / 0)

> Herbert Hoover ... attempted to finger the Nation of Islam

Herbert Hoover died about four months before Malcolm X, so I doubt he expressed any opinion on the identity of Malcolm's killer(s). I am guessing you meant J. Edgar Hoover, who was certainly not above framing people he did not like, although I am agnostic about this particular case.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: minor point of correction (none / 0)

Brain fart - J. Edgar


by johnnygunn on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 09:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama asked for this (2.00 / 4)

Instead of simply taking a little political heat by making a clean break with Wright, he called for a national conversation on race.  The pundits praised him as the next Lincoln, but unfortunately his former pastor began to enjoy all the attention and decided to weigh in, book deal and all.  Now Obama will never get rid of him.


by Upstate Dem on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:02:25 PM EST

Concern trolling is cute. If (2.00 / 1)

only 1/2 this much attention was paid to McSame...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:04:26 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock (2.00 / 2)

I don't seem to remember all this concern when Klein was dissing Clinton. Now he's the spawn of Satan for highlighting the obvious. What the Obama fans have never accepted was the degree of tribalism that has underpinned many of his primary victories. I actually understand it, if I was a black voter I'd almost certainly be voting for him but it was always dangerous because it made him vulnerable to this sort of Wright nonsense. I actually agree with some of Wright's comments but politically its suicidal. I can see them at the RNC and McCain's campaign hq actually slavering over this stuff as we speak. It's a sort of "Reverse Macaca" moment and it's going to do huge harm as it is replayed in endless commercials.  


by ottovbvs on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:26:23 PM EST

When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 3)

the Clinton hating Klein is saying to shut Wright up, I think Obama and his ilk better listen. Comparing him to Sharpton is an understatement. Sharpton has never said the kind of stuff Wright did. Also, Wright is a huge distraction, big enough to be used in commercials like he is now.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:28:19 PM EST

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

But Bill Cosby and MLK did and America loves them both.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 1)

they never said "not god bless america, god DAMN America!" and never said "US of KKK A" or "the United States of white America"


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

Actually MLK said that God would punish America and his last sermon was titled something like why America May go to Hell. He also blamed whites for oppression from those in the government to the people on the street.

Cosby said that the US might have created HIV to kill black people.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 1)

the difference is that none of them were so closely linked with a guy running for our Democratic Party nomination and candidate running for the highest office in the land


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

Well one of them has a national holiday. Should we take it away?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 1)

who cares, its not threatening to hurt or wreck our ticket in the fall. I care about winning, not principle


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

I think it's important to try to care about both.  Otherwise you're just registering a giant stamp of approval on this.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

Who cares? If it's not serious to take away his holiday then it's not serious enough to wreck a presidency.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 1)

actually, it won't wreck his Presidency, it'll stop him from ever getting one


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:41:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

"who cares, its not threatening to hurt or wreck our ticket in the fall. I care about winning, not principle"

And there it is folks the Clinton philosophy in a nutshell- no values, no core, no morality, just raw politics.


by Socraticsilence on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

Somehow, this just had to come back to be Clinton's fault.  You can support your candidate without trying to maliciously divert attention.


by TinaH1963 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:58:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I agree with Wright (2.00 / 1)

Troll-rate me if you want, but considering our actions as a nation, no sane God would bless our actions.

Over a million Iraqis have died, directly or indirectly, as a result of our actions. We have committed hundreds of crimes over the years, and overthrown at least a dozen democratically elected governments to fulfill our own interests. This is not something that many of us enjoy to hear, for ignorance is bliss, but it is the truth. And we as a nation must bear the collective guilt for it.

So I agree with Wright. Damn us for all who have died in Iraq. Damn us for all we have done to minorities over the years - black and white, Asian and Latino, Jewish and Catholic, Native-American and immigrant. Damn us for ignoring the health care crisis, for ignoring poverty, for ignoring the energy crisis. We may ignore these problems for now, but eventually, we will pay the price.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 2)

You should read MLK's speech where he says:

And I come by here to say that America too is going to Hell, if we don't use her wealth. If America does not use her vast resources of wealth to end poverty, to make it possible for all of God's children to have the basic necessities of life, she too will go to Hell.
before you compare  it to Rev. Wright's "God Damn America!"

Dr. King was making a very different point about what America should be, he was not condemning America for what she is.


by souvarine on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 06:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

He certainly condemned American imperialism, racism, & oppression just like Wright.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (2.00 / 1)

He condemned the "giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism," and warned America away from them. But his understanding of how we allowed ourselves to become entwined in French colonialism prevented him from describing America policy as imperialist.

And again, his motivation was "To save the soul of America," not to damn it.


by souvarine on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

As neither Wright nor King had the power to save or damn America in the biblical sense I'm not sure what your point is...


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Joe Klein says it, (none / 0)

I actually don't see a difference, either metaphorically or literally.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:51:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And he did so with specificity (none / 0)

For example in an interview with Playboy:

"The church once changed society.   It was then a thermostat  of society.  Today I feel that too much of the church is merely a thermometer, which measures rather than molds  popular opinion."

Playboy: are you speaking of the church in general - or the white church in particular?

K:  The white church, I'm sorry to say  Its leadership has greatly disappointed me.  Let me hasten to say that there are some outstanding exceptions. as one whose Christian roots go back through three generations of ministers.  I will remain true to the church as long as I live.  But the laxity of the white church collectively has caused me to weep tears of love.  There cannot be deep disappointment without deep love.  Time and again in my travels, as I have seen the outward beauty of white churches, I have had to ask myself, "what kind of people worship there?  Who is their God?  Is their God be God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and is their savior of the Savior who hung on the cross at Golgotha? Where were their voices when a black race took upon itself across a protest against man's injustice to man?  Where were their voices when defiance and hatred were called for by white men who sat in these areas churches?"

As the Negro struggles against grave injustice, most white churchmen offer pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities."

And he goes on ripping on the white church for a bit.

if you take a look at this book, you'll find him hatred for those who start war, a claim that white moderates are a bigger problem than the Klan, and other things that are way more complex that what he's been reduced to. And it's free!


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And he did so with specificity (none / 0)

Thanks for the extended quotes. I'm no student of MLK, but every time I re-read what he said I am reminded how much he was a student of Christ. He communicates Christ's message far more clearly than Rev. Wright.

Dr. King identified the obstacle to progress on race  in America at his time very precisely and accurately. And he knew how an appeal to the rights of African Americans as Americans could break down that obstacle. Your quotes demonstrate how far from the mark Rev. Wright's words are, and how Barack Obama's understanding of our time is so much deeper.


by souvarine on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And he did so with specificity (none / 0)

Except that the only thing which has changed is we've moved from color-conscious racism to color-blind racism. All of the institutional hurdles MLK talked about exist today. His criticisms of the civil rights act are still valid today. His idea of affirmative-action and reparations are still valid today. And most importantly his critique of the white moderate is still relevant today. The same people freaking out about Wright would have freaked out about MLK.

Now don't get me wrong, Wright has said some real out there stuff, but that was generally not the stuff that was focused on.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:52:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On Whites who don't want to hear (none / 0)

more about what Black folks want...

"'what more will the Negro want?"  "What will it take to make those demonstrations end?" Well I would like to reply with another rhetorical question: Why do white people seem to find it so difficult to understand that the Negro is sick and tired of having reluctantly parceled out to him those rights and privileges which all others receive upon birth or entry in America?  I never cease to wonder at the amazing presumption of much of white society, assuming that they have the right to bargain with the Negro for his freedom.  This continued arrogant ladling out of pieces of the rights of citizenship has begun to generate a fury in the Negro.  Even so, he is not pressing for revenge or for conquest or to gain spoils, or to enslave, or even to marry the sisters of those who have injured him.  What the Negro wants - and will not stop until he gets - is absolute and unqualified freedom and equality here in this land of his birth and not in Africa or in some imaginary stake.  The Negro no longer will be tolerant of anything less than his due right and heritage."


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Whites who don't want to hear (none / 0)

Those days are over. It is interesting history but not relevent to today.

Today it is people like Wright that are fomenting racial animosity among blacks that is the biggest problem. It is a poisen that must be condemned and rejected by all decent Americans, black and white alike.


by Caliman on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: On Whites who don't want to hear (none / 0)

Statistics show that you're wrong.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 1)

Who elected Joe Klein to speak for the Black Church?


by Alice Marshall on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:28:40 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 1)

I'm glad he speaks for the Democratic Party instead, which is more important for our country?


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny stuff (none / 0)

If you think Joe Klein speaks for Democrats as anything but a concern troll you haven't read enough Joe Klein.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Black Church


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (none / 0)

Yes and no.

The only reason Reverend Wright is a target is because of the political campaign.  The people opposed to Barack Obama want to use his religion for political gain; it's not as if a bunch of people woke up one morning and decided to conduct a pogrom.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:33:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Joe Klein speaks for the Bush Administration (none / 0)

Haven't you read any of his comments on FISA and warrantless wiretapping?

This is a man who admires George W. Bush, okay? He does not speak for the Democratic Party.


John McCain
by MILiberal on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talking (2.00 / 3)

disaster waiting to happen and if he keeps opening his damn piehole (i have no respect whatsoever for the man...i lost all respect i have for him when he decided to come out and talk), he would bring Obama down in the GE (it's too late for the primaries, i think), but some know-it-all here said "OH NO, Wright is a brilliant man...he won't hurt Obama...the American people can make the different between Wright and Obama...Wright is not running for president Obama is" and so on and so forth of the same nonsense.

Well, as if rational thinking made any difference in 2004, 2000, 1988, 1984, 1972 and 1968. Every time Wright open is mouth, most people will associate what he says and does with Obama, whether we like or not or whether we find it fair or not, this is exactly how it is going to be played.

Folks, the world is bigger than this blog or the left-leaning blogs that we spend all our days on. Most people are not left-leaning people. Most people are middle of the road people. We need to get out of these blogs which have become echo chambers...and talk to the larger world out there. And most people whether we like it or not do not like someone to say that people who died on 9/11 deserve to die because America's foreign policy is evil.  

An African-American friend of mine told me yesterday that he believes Wright is doing all of this because deep down he wants Senator Obama to lose so he can prove his twisted theories. Well, after watching him this morning in the Press Club, i really think that he is saying what he is saying and doing what he is doing to bring the Senator down.

I went through the Willy Horton shit as an insider and i saw how that ad (which ran only for one day mind you) changed the polls in crucial states such as Illinois, Ohio, and Pennsylvania and how the same ad reversed the polls in Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont and Maine where we were ahead (by as many as 15 points in Vermont and Maine). I hope i am wrong, but a feeling deep in my guts tells me that i am not.


by likelihood zero on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 04:36:47 PM EST

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

I'm a big Obama supporter and I agree with this sentiment, expressed by someone who wrote to Andrew Sullivan today:

Jeremiah Wright fucked Obama today and fucked him good.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th e_daily_dish/2008/04/wright-vs-obama.htm l


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

I have a very hard time imagining Barack Obama doing what Andrew Sullivan is suggesting.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (2.00 / 1)

Obama did reiterate today that he doesn't agree with Wright, but I think he needs to do it again and again.  I am convinced that Wright was insulted by what Obama said in his race speech and would be just fine with Obama losing.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:52:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

What I take from Andrew Sullivan's post is something more than a reiteration that he doesn't agree with Wright.  I think Sullivan is looking for a full-blown repudiation.

As far as Wright's psychology, who knows?  I don't like what he's doing, but I think it stems from a fundamental, but honest, misreading of the situation - he thinks it's about him, and it's really not.  He's effectively a giant battering ram aimed at Barack Obama's candidacy.

The guy has had nonstop death threats, surveillance, papparazzis camped out of his former church and his home, helicopter flyovers, ambush interviews of his parishoners and the like.  Which is why I'm sad seeing where this is going.

And seeing the pro-Hillary people cheering it all on is moving me slowly into "will never vote for anyone named Clinton" territory.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

maybe this will make you feel a little better (none / 0)

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/04/28/ politics/fromtheroad/entry4050165.shtml? CMP=OTC-RSSFeed&source=RSS&attr= FromTheRoad_4050165

"From the Left, Clinton Scolds McCain Over Republican Ads on Wright"


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:12:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (2.00 / 2)

I second what Andrew Sullivan said, though i pretty much cannot stand the guy.

Senator Obama has to come out and light a fire under Rev. Wright. Not only should he throw Rev Wright under the bus, Senator Obama should be driving the bus himself. Senator Obama should jump on the first question asked by any journalist to categorically distance himself from the idiot by a million light years.

If he does not do that, i am seriously afraid that this could be big big big big troubles in the GE.

The Q&A was a disaster. I was cringing all the time and cussing like crazy. He was behaving like a freaking idiot up there. Goodness gracious, he sounded like a diehard black separatist. What he said about 9/11 and Israel is something that is going to be cut and pasted by the Republicans and their minions in some ads and we will see it over and over.

I said yesterday that if i worked in the RNC or was a republican i would send a fruit basket to Rev. Wright with the following note: "Thank you for your amazing ability of reviving dead people. You are the gift that keeps on giving."

If Senator Obama loses in November, there is no one that should be blame, but Rev. Wright.


by likelihood zero on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

And yet associations - even close associations - with crazy white preachers never seems to harm a candidate.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

Which underscores the point that separation of church and state doesn't seem to apply to black candidates.

Moreover, the freaky preachers around John McCain are their out of political affiliation.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:19:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

Clinton has a freak group she's part of too that's all about influencing politics but I agree that separation of church and state doesn't appear to apply to black candidates. At least not this high up the food chain. Now if his preacher was a teacher of prosperity theology I bet it'd be AOK.  


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (2.00 / 1)

I think we should leave Clinton out of this...this is of our own doing.

As for McCain...well, one might argue that that crazy Hagee (or whatever his name is) was never McCain's preacher. I think he endorsed him, which is a little bit different from being someone's preacher for a long period.


by likelihood zero on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

I don't see why the other two get a free pass. Parsley, McCain's "spiritual mentor" wants to start a religious war and hates just about anything that isn't white, male and christian. McCain sought out Hagee's endorsement for political gain. Clinton is part of a cell in The Family. They're all fair game to me at this point.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

What i am saying is that Hagee guy was not McCain preacher for 20 years. That Hagee guy came out and endorsed McCain...that is totally different from the situation of Senator Obama and that freaking Wright.

As for Clinton, i don't think you can use that...no one of them is out and about giving press conferences and talking about how we deserved 9/11, Zionism and praising Farakkan and calling a great man.

You just cannot spin these two situations at all. It would look desperate and reeks cheap political ploy, which is worse than dealing with the situation directly.  

Come on, it is not the same thing and you know it. Look, we have got to be honest here: we've got a problem on our hands and Senator Obama needs to throw that freaking Wright under the bus as soon as possible. And i don't know if that is possible...he is being framed slowly and surely in the minds of the American public. Once those frames are set, there is nothing that can be done to undo them. Trust me, you just have to take a look at 1988...and how we were framed...i was there and it still hurts until now.


by likelihood zero on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

Hagee didn't come out and endorse McCain. McCain pursued Hagee's endorsement.

As far a The Family goes you might want to do a little research before you say it's not a big deal.

Wright is a problem for a certain segment of our population yes. That I agree with.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

Obama has also attended Coe's prayer meetings according to his campaign. I don't think it is a big deal in either Obama or Clinton's case, and the last person I'd go to for honest reporting on Democratic politicians is Barbra "Nader 2000!" Ehrenreich.


by souvarine on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday that this guy is walking-talk (none / 0)

I think in McCain's case it's worse.  You have a religious relation on the one hand, which if you believe in church and state is private, and on the other hand you have a political endorsement.

Rev. Hagee is a blot on John McCain precisely because he isn't John McCain's minister.  He's a candidate that Hagee saw and said "now THERE'S a guy who will advance my nutty ideas".


by Mostly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:13:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said yesterday... (none / 0)

That was yesterday, this is today. And his speech today was just abominable. Confirmed the absolute worst things people said about him (yourself included). I still defend him as a pastor, I still think his place in heaven is certain, I still think he has been a force of good in the world. But I need Obama to say that he can't tolerate this kind of thing, and even though he respects Wright, the man he respects is not the one who spoke today. Something. Anything.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: (2.00 / 1)

Two points we should be able to agree on:

-Joe Klein is no expert on Black Churches

-Rev Wright in not helping Obama by putting himself out there this way


by Christopher Lib on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 05:42:40 PM EST

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (1.00 / 1)

The Hillaryis44 crowd in here is making me ill.  Some of you guys would accept the endorsement of David Duke if you thought it would help.


by Mostly on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 07:39:52 PM EST

Thank you (none / 0)

for saying "some". The broad brushing that I have seen around here from both sides is discouraging. I have even been caught at it myself, once or twice, to my shame.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:21:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sigh... (none / 0)

I can't remember who wrote it, it doesn't matter at this point. Hurts me to say it, but right now, Obama needs to sunder his ties with Wright. And Wright was practically begging for it.

Wright came across this weekend like an intelligent, calm man. Then today, he blew ALL of that in one hour. I don't know if he has some sort of martyr complex or what, but today's stuff was said to the public. Not to a church congregation, to the press. Gleefully spouting the stuff that he knew was most damaging. And that's his right, that's his belief and I have to respect him for standing by it.

But in order for me to respect Obama, I have to know he doesn't take shit from anybody. And having Wright talk like he's in the man's pocket... not tolerable. And I think he knows it.

If Obama does not come out and sever his association with Wright, he's toast. Last night, the story was different. But some things you just can't take back. This is one of them.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:47:15 PM EST

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

Ah yes, it was Andrew Sullivan who said it. And he's correct.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

I gotta say, I hope that Wright did this on purpose. Hard to find a better way to get the media to leave you alone than to finally force Obama to shut you out of it.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

What Obama said today  http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ 04/28/obama-addresses-wrights-remarks-ag ain/


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

Not enough. Wright further asserted that Obama REALLY thought the exact same way he did. That's not new. But when you combine that with him claiming (albeit half-jokingly) a certain level of control over Obama, that is over the line.

And Obama needs to show a lot more strength than "well, we don't control what the guy says". He needs to elaborate on what he said during his speech on race. He needs to talk about what's wrong with the more militant Wright statements.

Wright's perspective is black liberation theology. And he is doing exactly what he needs to do. What Obama needs to do is make it clear to everyone that while he agrees with many things about Wright's ministry, he thinks that some of it is personally offensive, and that the idea he supports it is preposterous.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

Don't you think it's too late now? Really, he should have followed Jerome's advice and thrown him under the bus and run over him when all of this first broke. He said he couldn't disassociate himself from Wright before when he knew about the statements so why would anyone believe Obama now? It would look like complete desperation.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

I think he CAN. It's a question of whether he will. If he expressed enough disappointment with Wright and contrasted the interviews yesterday with the speech today, he might pull it off. Most accounts called Wright's speech last night articulate and insightful. As opposed to today, which was full of bluster and gleeful indignation.

If he can draw a line between those two sides of Wright and make it clear which one he chose to listen to, he could pull it off. I respect an Obama who listens to the man who preached "The Audacity To Hope". The Obama who listened to the guy today and enjoyed it? Hell no. I don't expect him to have left when he started saying this stuff.

Obama said that he disagreed with Wright's stuff already. He just needs to elaborate further. And, as I said, mention that there are two different Wrights.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sigh... (none / 0)

At the end of that second paragraph, I meant to add, "I DO expect him to have frowned in disapproval or at LEAST have rolled his eyes."


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Joe Klein: Time to Lock the Crazy Uncle in the (2.00 / 1)

its like he wants to be important, so when Obama loses, he feels big. what he SHOULD be saying is "I've talked to Barack and he genuinely disagrees with me and has different beliefs"


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:56:25 PM EST

Where are we going with this? (2.00 / 1)

Throughout this race I have had moments of wondering about the segment of the Party that would not vote for the "other" candidate.  I figured it was probably about equal, and would balance out with the other virtues of each candidate.  

I have tried to ignore the dreadful anti-Hillary stuff on Kos, and much of the equally dreadful anti-Obama stuff on this site in favor of reading and listening to people of good will on both sides.  

I am watching the Wright thing escalate probably out of control, and now am really wondering if we will have a party left at the end of this.  it is not so much that it is a long divisive primary between two candidates with devoted constitiuencies, it is that I think we have crossed the line, both sides, of any hope of party unity, where it almost doesn't matter how persuasive the winner is in courting the other's people.  The fact that Wright has become THE pivotal factor right now in Obama's campaign speaks to me of where we are as a country in dealing with issues, not only of race, but of serious challenges to the status quo.  I am not saying that Obama is the only one of the two who is challenging the status quo, I am saying that for the press to let Wright, who is clearly on a personal mission at this point, for whatever reason, become the centerpiece of the whole thing, and then to have that picked up by Clinton's supporters with such glee, makes me wonder about who we are as Americans and Democrats.  

This has nothing to do with the Clinton campaign by the way, it is just about how people will seize on devices that are normally morally repugnant to them when cornered.  This goes beyond normal politics into some muck that I don't care to even look at anymore.


by mady on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 09:50:18 PM EST

Re: Where are we going with this? (none / 0)

SOME of Clinton's supporters are gleeful mady. Far from all of us feel that way, from what I observe.

You may be mistaking a kind of "I told you so" attitude for glee. But even though this situation damages Obama the most in the short term, it damages all Democratic candidates in the '08 cycle in the medium term, because the media attacks will not just smear Obama with guilt by association, they will use it to tar the entire Democratic brand as unpatriotic, etc. In the long term, the continued success of this sort of cynical media manipulation of public opinion will damage democracy in America.

Jerome pointed out in an article some time ago, using post-Wright-video polling, that the Wright controversy damaged BOTH Obama and Clinton in the eyes of many swing voters. I know many Obama supporters think Clinton would "do anything to win," but she has been pretty careful not to fan the flames. I will no doubt be roasted for saying that, but before roasting me, check this out:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/04/28/ politics/fromtheroad/entry4050165.shtml? CMP=OTC-RSSFeed&source=RSS&attr= FromTheRoad_4050165

"From the Left, Clinton Scolds McCain Over Republican Ads on Wright"

"I regret the efforts by the Republicans to politicize this matter and I believe that if John McCain were serious, he would do more than send a letter," Clinton told reporters. "I think he could very clearly tell the North Carolina party, the Mississippi party that he would not tolerate those kinds of advertisements and I'm waiting to hear if he does that."  

While I believe Clinton really does regret this smear on a moral level, she also recognizes that this Wright business is dynamite that could blow up not only Obama, but the entire Democratic brand for the '08 cycle.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 03:50:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OBAMA IS OVER (none / 0)

OBAMA WAS TIED AT THE HIP WITH WRIGHT FOR 20 YEARS.

There's nothing Obama can say or do to salvage his career at this point.

OBAMA IS OVER.

It couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.


by BerkekeyGuy on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:38:08 PM EST

Observe: (none / 0)

This, I believe,  is what Mady is talking about.  She put what I was trying to say a lot more eloquently than I could.

At a certain point it comes down to principles.  Would you see people on this site whooping and hollering if Bill Clinton were caught in bed with someone?- I doubt it.  At least I hope not, since it would have no bearing on Hillary Clinton's beliefs, ability to govern, etc.


by Mostly on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 01:18:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Observe: (none / 0)

You are right and this is sad.  


by TinaH1963 on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 02:11:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Observe: (none / 0)

Yes. The gleeful ones are wrong, IMHO. This Wright thing hurts Obama most of all, but it hurts Clinton too, as well as down-ticket Democrats in many races all over the country. It's the good old "Democrats hate America" smear, yet again.


Your attempt to change the subject to "the issues" is irrelevant.
by itsthemedia on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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